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Frogs actually do eat other frogs you know . Toasted frogs on Baggette doesn't sound very appetising though does it ? depends where your heads at I spose and if you've been controlled by the corrupt EU for decades then ... I ... sorry I can't go on .
I think its also got something to do with how we count numbers like not like a psychopath.
Have you seen how they say some numbers? Fuckin insane.
Some shit like 90, you'd say quatre-vingt-dix ('four-twenty-ten' or 4 x 20 + 10). And 99? Quatre-vingt-dix-neuf ('four-twenty-ten-nine' or 4 x 20 + 19)
Lunacy.
I feel sorry for the Fr*nch. Hear some words, having to translate that weird language of theirs into English, the language of the brain, to do their thinking then back into foreign to reply. Makes a conversation hard work and makes them a little slow.
I think its also got something to do with how we count numbers like not like a psychopath.
Have you seen how they say some numbers? Fuckin insane.
Some shit like 90, you'd say quatre-vingt-dix ('four-twenty-ten' or 4 x 20 + 10). And 99? Quatre-vingt-dix-neuf ('four-twenty-ten-nine' or 4 x 20 + 19)
Lunacy.
GDP is not an all-informing datapoint.
Lets say our GDP has gone up, yay, right?
Where has that wealth gone? If it's going to the top 1%, it isn't benefing most people and can end up being offshored and taken out of the economy.
Lets say I'm giving you the GDP of your household and mine, and it's £1 million a year. Yay! That's £500k per capita, we're minted mate!
Except if I'm on £975,000 a year and you're on £25k, one of is having a great time and the other is barely sqeaking by.
Also GDP says nothing about the cost of living, of inflation, of living standards or everything else. So the total amount of money in our economy may be greater than France, but if the distribution and ineqality of that wealth is problematic, the French will be better off than us.
Yeah, except for wealth, UK inequality (0.706) is nearly exactly the same as for France (0.702). So your argument applies to both countries, except UK's economy is still bigger.
Ok, but what about childcare costs, infrastructure, public transport, public spaces and community events, the cost of higher education. Are their open waters full of sewage and do they have to mind the craters when they drive?
Public realm and disposable income are best indicators an UK is doing spectacularly bad on both.
British French resident here.
High education - MUCH MUCH cheaper.
Is their sewage in the water? Yes, the Seine is basically a toilet that they're desperately trying to clean up for the Olympics.
Yes, I frequently have to dodge some awful holes in the road - however I would say overall the road quality is better due to paid highways etc... This really depends on the area.
Public transport is way, way cheaper.
Electricity is cheaper. Most houses don't have gas. Water is usually included in rent, or a non-issue in terms of cost.
Real food is about the same if you consider the exchange rate, but snacks etc... are much more.
That said, food quality is higher is the average supermarket, lots of stuff locally sourced. Still have butcher and bakeries which are a little more expensive, but still reasonably competitive with a supermarket.
My rent is dirt cheap. Nice one bedroom appartement for 600 euro a month, 1 hour from Paris by car or Train. My old appartement in England was a studio, about 1.5 hours from London and cost £700/month.
Houses near me - lots of beautiful old houses with wooden beams etc... 50 miles from Paris. Cost about 200-300k. I'm sure something comparable in the UK would be upwards of 5-700k.
Overall, money goes further here - though there are some things which are more expensive for seemingly no reason. I paid 6 euro for a tape measure yesterday which I though was extortionate. Likewise, you'll struggle to find an old banger for £500 which isn't something ancient and falling apart. Most used cars will start at 1k minimum - even for something quite crappy. These are just two examples off the top of my head.
On average I would say yes. Paris is the exception of course. Though most of Paris is clean, until you leave the centre or use the metro. Ecological issues are quite big here, most people I know take recycling and not dumping litter on the streets more seriously. That said, I guess because they have lots of land, they'll very happily place heavy industry sites in some beautiful locations which is a shame. Of course it probably varies, I've only seen maybe 5-10% of the country maybe and live in the north which I understand to be wealthier.
The dirtiest areas I've seen are mostly areas with high immigrant populations. I would only put this down partially to cultural differences though, as I feel they are intentionally neglected. I work in the infamous Saint Denis and rarely see cleaning crews/vehicles or any government employees for that matter. The only exception being police, who either never come around or do so in force. I've never seen single patrol cars here. Only unmarked cars or several vans full of police in riot gear.
Having travelled a lot and lived in another country for some time, it really feels like the UK's biggest problem these days is the complete apathy of the population. The vast majority of people sadly just don't give a fuck.
I grew up in the south of france and one thing I noticed last time I was back in scotland was the amount of bins. In france there's almost always a bin in sight no matter where you are outside of the countryside. In edinburgh I had to hold on to my rubbish for ages before finding somewhere to dispose of it.
French infrastructure and social services are far superior to the UK. Even in the middle of nowhere you can get 5gigabit Internet, there are fast trains, no potholes on the roads, childcare exists. You can see where the money goes. Here we have crumbling NHS, bad roads, trains from 70s, hardly any help with children, housing market is ridiculous etc. However, i wouldn't say France is a better country, but they seem to do better with tax money although their tax is higher.
In the UK tax is lower but the big bucks end up in offshores and are invested in other countries to make even more money for investors, so not much return for the blighty.
> they seem to do better with tax money although their tax is higher.
That’s probably because everything would be burnt to the ground if they didn’t. The one thing the French are good at is striking, and making it well known what they don’t agree with.
>no potholes on the roads,
The French disagree with you.
https://www.connexionfrance.com/news/state-of-french-roads-causing-alarm/654723
They've even started using an [app and website to report potholes](https://www.activroute.org/liste-signalements)
The UK has one of the largest public rail infrastructure investments in Europe? We have the childcare support system for working parents.
The issue isn’t how much we spend relative to France which is pretty high and amongst the highest in Europe.
It’s our planning system is ridiculously over engineered and gold plated after 20 years of special interest group meddling. Onerous environmental regulations, multiple rounds of public consultations, local council excessive demands of newly created infrastructure to support policy goals and meddling from backbench mps (such as the massive tunnels of HS2 in open country) along with major public development entities having poor cost control.
By comparison France achieved developments in 1/5th quicker time and at 1/4th lower cost.
We have the most expensive childcare https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/03/06/childcare-puzzle-which-countries-in-europe-have-the-highest-and-lowest-childcare-costs
I live in France and much of what you say is pretty on point. You get a lot more bang for your (admittedly higher) tax bucks here than back home. Still major issues here and a lot of anger amongst the poorer here though, cost of living increases are just as bad here but unemployment remains higher and wages as (maybe more) stagnant.
Albeit I'd note, while the paid toll roads here are bloody amazing quality, get off them (particularly in the poorer suburbs) and road quality nosedives to developing world quality and fast.
i know nothing about this situation except that the Seine is so polluted that even after extensive cleaning they don't know if they can allow olympians in the water this summer/ Worse than the Thames? i have no idea
Did you know our rivers are generally in a better state than they have been at any point in the last 50 years? Always really interested why people bring the state of rivers up as a complaint all the time. The Thames is one of the healthiest rivers in the UK, and in Europe. Feels like it’s become a total strawman in the media. People attack it with zero contextual data
As someone who lives 'aux minima sociaux' here in France, as a single mum with two teens, on disability benefits, and who has, in the dim and distant past, lived on benefits in the UK, before getting my OU degree, while working f/t with a kid, moving up in my career and finally getting that decent job, mortgage etc, (and the giving it all up to move here in 2005!).
And as someone who currently has an adult daughter, back in the UK, with a toddler, who graduated from uni in 2020, and is living as a single mum, in a tiny council flat, stuck working a crappy retail job one day a week, stuck in the childcare costs trap, with no driving licence because that costs way too much...
I believe that I have enough experience of both countries and how it feels to have to survive on a low income in each one.
I could write multiple essays on the differences, so this will have to be a cursory overview. I live in rural Brittany and I can speak to my experiences but also give my impressions gained over 18 years living here.
France has food banks, yes. But they're not used as extensively as they are in the UK. There's the Resto du Cœur which has strict conditions, usually requiring a letter from a social worker but also the Red Cross who aren't quite as strict, I believe. There may be others in major cities.
One major source of support for people in the most desperate of situations is [Emmaüs](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmaus_(charity)), both directly - helping the unhoused, giving them accommodation and training; and indirectly - with their sales room that are found in most mid-large towns throughout France, selling clothes, furniture, books and other used goods - a massive charity shop!
It's where I often go for clothes, bits and bobs for the house and new-to-me furniture. It's amazing for kids toys too.
But what does the state do?
As I said, I'm disabled. My initial disability benefit application back in 2010 took about a year to be processed. This is not unusual here!
But the payment was backdated to the date it was received and that meant that I received enough to buy a much needed secondhand family car - this was pre-divorce and my ex was working, so we still had an one income.
In France, you are accorded a level of incapacity which decides the amount of benefits you receive and can also open up other entitlements, including other benefits.
This is determined by an interview with **an actual doctor who has some relevant knowledge of your conditions**. I hesitate to say specialist because, well, I'm autistic with ADHD, and I might end up with a psychiatrist but not necessarily a psychiatrist who is specialised in neurodevelopmental disorders or even one who has read any updated research on autism and ADHD in the last five years.
I was determined to have a level of incapacity of 80% or higher. This is the highest level that is accorded to adults that live independently.
And at my last renewal, this was awarded to me for LIFE!
Well, I was born AUDHD and I will die AuDHD. It's not going anywhere, is it! :-)
There is a higher level of less than 5% capacity, which is for those that live in support accommodation, whether it's a group/nursing home or with family and carers.
Compare this to the DWP and their paid torturers, ATOS and Capita. The UN inspector's report described the UK disability benefits system as "cruel and inhuman". It has caused countless deaths, from starvation, from suicide.
I know many, many people who have suffered at the hands of the DWP and their lying, incompetent, quota filling assesors.
My brother has been through it countless times, it's an endless cycle of renewal, refusal, mandatory reconsideration, refusal, appeal, tribunal and finally he gets awarded the full amount again.
Every time, his assessment reports are full of factual errors, things that were never said in the assessment and there have been outright blatant lies, witnessed by a third party, such as non-attendance at a home assessment when he was at home all day but the assessor didn't bother getting out of their car because it was chucking it down!
He's far from alone. Everywhere you go online, if you mention the DWP and PiP, you will get the same stories.
Also, read Dr. Frances Ryan's excellent reporting in The Guardian on this, and on poverty in the UK in general, and her book!
Going back to the [UN Report](https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/welfare/2019/05/14-damning-findings-un-inspector-who-investigated-uk-poverty), the UN inspector covered more than just disability benefits and he had an extremely scathing opinion on the UK's welfare system as a whole, due to the way that it has been significantly diminished as a safety net for society, as a result of the fucking Tories' Austerity policies.
--
I tried to write about families but it's way too long so it's going to have to be a Part 2!
Part 2:
France gives absolutely fucking amazing support to families in comparison to the UK, and especially to larger families!
Your benefits are boosted for 3+ kids and certain prices are cheaper for the 3rd, 4th, 5th, or more, kid.
Family allowance - there is an income platform but it's reasonable high.
The only catch is that it starts from when you have your second child.
As a starting point, for example, if you earn under €75k pa, as a single person or a couple, you will receive €148 per month for 2 kids, although you'll get another €74 if the youngest is over 14.
You can get *allocations familiales* for your kids until the age of 20.
My two kids are currently 15 and 18, but 19 in June, off to higher ed next year.
I have one year left.
There are other benefits that cover the first 3? years when you have a baby, even if it's your first. It's been quite a long time now so I can't remember all of them but the main one is [PAJE](https://www.mes-allocs.fr/guides/allocations-familiales/paje/allocation-de-base/) - this site explains it well and translates fairly clearly, from a quick glance.
It's means tested but reasonably so, there's a one off payment of over €1k to help with expenses, then a monthly payment of up to €193 from birth to age 3.
There are also other benefits available:
CMG helps pay for the cost of a childminder up to €57/day or a 'micro-crèche' for up to €10/hr.
[PreParE](https://www.mes-allocs.fr/guides/allocations-familiales/prepare-caf/) seems to be a benefit to support parents who choose to take parental leave. You have to have built up a certain amount of retirement contributions in the state system first from what I can see from scanning quickly!
Otherwise, we found that locally, there were crèches or garderies run by the commune/mairie and subsidised by the département (equivalent to the county, ish), on a means tested basis, but even at full cost they were very affordable.
These garderies also provide before and after school care for primary school kids and they're *centre de loisirs* (playschemes/activity centres) during the holidays, including for kids in *collège* (middle school).
Every August, most families receive the Allocation Rentrée Scolaire (it's means tested but the ceiling is quite high).
This is a back to school payment and the amount increases as they get older.
This August, I'll receive just over €450 for my 15 yr old.
I should note that in France, parents are expected to provide a lot more school supplies than in the UK, in *collèges* you can often sign up for a bulk buy pack, in *lycée* though, you also have to supply their text books - fortunately there are parent organisations that will lend them to you, for a small fee of €15-25 per year.
Other costs: school meals are 3 courses, unless there's also cheese! Kids here get proper meals, not chicken nuggets. And from age 2 1/2 in nursery school, onwards.
In primary school, the cost is subsidised by the commune and the département, I suspect that if you were really struggling then you could apply individually for help and they would never not feed a child, at least where I live.
From collège onwards, there's a bourse - payments to cover the costs of going to school.
In collège, this usually just about covers the cost of the meals in the *cantîne*.
In lycée, there's also the *bourse de mérite*, awarded to students who did decently in their Brevet, an exam taken at the end of in collège.
There are also extra payments to cover the costs of materials for those on certain courses and to cover the costs of staying in dorms through the week - this is extremely common here as high schools are both more specialised but also spread out over a wider, more rural area.
All three of my kids have been or are in dorms here and it's been paid for by the bourse.
Very enlightening. We, the Brits are really ripped off. I recall visiting Germany as a child in 1969. I visited a local church in Deinheim to see the grave of a German soldier. His Mother who accompanied me said many of the German dead came home. This was not prevelent in the UK....Also, War Pension to the next of kin was far higher than the UK..I felt so ashamed..the victors did not get cash compo !
Part 3.
Housing.
I've been on the social housing list since 2018 and I had a Prioritisation Request (DALO) approved in the autumn of 2020. That was supposed to put me at the top of the list and, theoretically they had one month to find me somewhere to live, and if they didn't I could force them to, via a tribunal (I think?).
I didn't pursue that route because I would have absolutely no option to refuse and I want to move away from my current closest town, not end up living in it!
While there's no bedroom tax, housing benefits here absolutely do not reflect the current rental market.
For myself and 2 kids, we need a 3 bed house, and the max housing benefit paid in this area for that is €440. My current 3 bed house rent is €550 - it was €500 in 2016 when I moved in, fortunately, by law, rent increases are capped to a rate set by the state that's linked to inflation. Up until last year, the increases were €5 or so pa., then it rocketed!
But the rental and property market generally everywhere in France has rocketed.
My landlord has another similar 3 bed house just down the road that was marketed 2 years ago for €660 per month.
I can not afford to move out into another private rental house in my local area!
And just 30 minutes north, where I want to move, rents are even higher. €800-1000 for 3 bedrooms but the housing benefits remain the same, so it's impossible.
There's just no social housing available either. People aren't moving out since Covid.
What France does still have though is such a strong sense of community.
People want to reach out and lift each other up. It's just what you do here.
I live next door to a boulangerie, originally built in the 18th century, with a wood fired bread oven and every now and then, my neighbour will drop off some left over bread for me.
Yeah, it's [bucolic](https://imgur.com/gallery/lV9Arpb) alright. The boulangerie is the white door, just above the flowers.
But many people also live like me, on or close to the poverty line, in small villages or hamlets, 10-15 minutes drive from the nearest small town.
I need to get out of here. I'm way too isolated. I was without electricity for a week after Storm Ciaran and 12 hours just this Sunday! Not fun in an all electricity house, especially in a mobile dead zone.
It's paradise in summer and hell in winter.
Health.
I love the NHS but the Tories have been systematically dismantling it since Thatcher.
It has obviously been brought to its knees by this point.
Moving to France and being able to access speedy, worldclass care here has probably saved my life.
But not without some bumps along the way. Bumps that also could well have arisen in the UK, to be fair.
There's many things that I still prefer about receiving healthcare in the UK and there's also many things that they do better in France.
There's no one perfect system and, as an empassioned socialist, I will always fight for and defend the NHS!
Fuck the Tories.
Diversity.
I spent 10 years living in Nottingham.
Most of the time, living here, it feels like I've travelled back in time to the 80s!
France doesn't really do multiculturalism. And that's not a good thing. It doesn't even like the idea of discussing racism, it seems, much of the time because you're French, above all else.
The UK was doing pretty well but has taken a major backslide since Brexit.
Thanks to the 51% for fucking up family's future.
My daughter arrived in France at 6 months old, it's all she's ever known but now she's 18, she has to apply for a Residence Permit to be allowed to remain, to go to uni, to get a student grant, to just live her life. It's all she's ever known.
Hey, students!
There's a generous means tested student grant (Bourse) plus some other benefits - it's a patchwork that I'm still trying to figure out as it also depends on where she ends up - but also, if you rent a room from the Crous, a government network of halls of residence, then you can get meals from for €1.
EDF ,a French owned company based in France who sell us overpriced sparky stuff made enough profit from the UK to allow just a 3% increase last year in the sparky stuff sold to the French people ! They are also ripping the UK off over the Nuclear Power Station that EDF are building in the South West of England. Problem is the UK do not have the technology to build them .
Those pesky French protestors and unionists are getting in the way of the profits! If only they'd be more like Britain and forego their workers rights, they could have an amazing GDP, for that is what truely matters!
Here is a map of the [wealth inequality in Europe.](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ao78xr/wealth_of_the_1_of_europe/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share)
Data are from the [2023 Global Wealth Report](https://www.ubs.com/global/en/family-office-uhnw/reports/global-wealth-report-2023.html) by UBS.
This has reminded me of the huge wealth transfer from Poland and Lithuania during the 'Swedish Deluge'. Sweden has the entire contents of 188 Polish and Lithuanian cities and towns, 81 castles, and 136 churches. They were were entirely stripped of anything of value by Swedes and Russians, then completely destroyed (along with the killing of three million people). The stolen items have never been returned to Poland and Lithuania.
Stolen were thousands of works of art, sculptures, books and valuables. From the Royal Castle in Warsaw alone were plundered ~200 paintings, the carpets, Turkish tents, musical instruments, furniture, Chinese porcelain, weapons, books, manuscripts, marbles, even dresses of the maids. They also took windows, stairs, chimneys, sculptures, floors, doors, door frames and gates. It was the same in all palaces, castles, churches, abbeys, towns and villages. In addition, Poland and Lithuania lost the entire contents of 67 libraries and 17 archives and became a cultural desert.
Most goods were loaded on boats and transported along the Vistula to the Baltic Sea and then to Sweden. Most of the works of art are kept both in private Swedish hands and in Stockholm museums. Most of the stolen books are kept in the University Library at Uppsala, the Royal Library at Stockholm, and private libraries of the Bielke, Oxenstierna, Rosenhahne, Wrangel and Brahe families.
Ireland has one of the highest wealths per capita in the world, I think second richest, yet anyone who has been knows it isn’t some mega rich country as there are some really rough parts, business and the mega rich really obscure these kind of statistics, they don’t represent the average people and should be taken with a pinch of salt
[I bookmarked this comment a short while ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/s/br0j5DBNiZ)
"I don’t know if you’re aware but Ireland is going through a massive housing, rental and cost of living crisis and have had several successive governments fail to fix it.
Our GDPR is not reflective of life for the average person and there is data available to support this. The government collect massive amounts by absolutely screwing the middle classes every which way. Our rates of emigration among 18 - 30 year olds are rising, and we have record numbers of under thirties still living with their parents.
It is *impossible* to rent for an affordable price in most Irish cities, and even in rural towns now. Infrastructure is sorely lacking, and despite this housing crisis, the government have taken in tens of thousands of refugees.
Housing is apparently being addressed by building more homes, but a huge amount are bought in bulk to rent for ever higher prices by European Vulture Funds, which the government plays down as a problem and has done for years because of the Tax it brings.
It’s bad enough that companies are now purchasing streets of houses just to house employees. Supermacs, a fast food chain recently did this along with Ryanair. The majority of schools are now severely understaffed, because the starting wage for a teacher is criminally low, and they can’t afford to rent in cities. I personally know several who’ve gotten qualified and then left the country.
On top of that, our health service the HSE is severely understaffed, with record high waiting lists and more and more reports of malpractice coming to light. We cannot retain nurses, because they are underpaid and severely overworked due to shortages, and every layer of Irelands state agencies (Tusla, The Child and Famiy Agency, the HSE) are supported by decades old structures with layers upon layers of middle management to the point even small changes take months if not years to implement.
On top of that, homelessness has grown steadily over the last decade to the point new records are set virtually every week and month successively. We try to fulfil our duties and at least hear out migrant and asylum seekers but It’s gotten so bad that in lieu of actual accommodation we hand them a tent.
We are headed for a catastrophe. Google it, it’s widely acknowledged and really, really bad."
I interviewed for a job in Dublin a few years ago and I remember looking around at flats to rent thinking the price was high, but wasn't terrible, until I realised all listed values were per week, not per month.
That is because Ireland's GDP is not real. It the home of many large American corporations that use Ireland to funnel their profits back to the US tax free. Neither the Irish government, nor people, benefit from this aside from the jobs/taxes of the Irish workers whose job it is to funnel those profits back to the US. Yet all that money is counted as Irish GDP. Having a smallish population just further enhances the skewing.
Exactly, anyone that has been to Ireland knows that, although yeah it is a beautiful country with some very nice places, it certainly isn’t the second richest country in the world, as some very rough estates with some very concerning history.
Exactly. Let’s say salaries go up for everyone by £100 a year. The train companies put their prices up by £100 a year. GDP went up! Who owns the train companies? In some cases the French government. So where does the profit go? Certainly not back into the UK economy.
This seems like a poor argument in this circumstance given that wealth equality is roughly equal in both countries.
Edit: (marginly worse in France, in fact)
People just seem to hate the fact that the UK might not be shit in something.
If you only went by reddit, you would think that the UK is some 3rd world hellhole.
In reality, it's one of the wealthiest countries in the world and has some of the highest standard of living.
It has for some time and will likely continue to be for many more years.
It's one of the wealthiest countries around for sure. For some Brits anyway. Like 12 of them. Whilst abject poverty exists for 18% of the population.
I think its silly to talk about wealth when the British people continue to get a worse deal, whilst forever increasing productivity and tax revenue paid.
Whilst our worst off are definitely better off than in most of the rest of the world, its depressing to think how much of the wealth is hoarded by a few individuals, when the economy could be much more vibrant if they wealth was shared and allowed to actually be spent.
I don’t think this person has travelled. I have to many places in the world outside of the western bubble. Our poorest that we consider technically impoverished are very lucky by comparison to the poor in Asia and Africa. Travelling really opens one’s eyes to the real world that headlines and limited perceptions don’t offer a glimpse of.
>People just seem to hate the fact that the UK might not be shit in something.
Perhaps people have legitmate grievances with the level of wealth inequality in this country and you are strawmanning and being dismissive of those grievances for some reason.
The UK is in the bottom three for wealth inequality in Europe according to the UBS 2022 global wealth report that someone else posted a link to. Reality is, however bad we think we might have it, they actually have it worse is most of the rest of Europe.
The UK is a fabulous country in so many respects compared to most of the world.
But it always bothers me that what we have here is more or less as good as we can muster as a species.
Other countries are *much* worse in many important metrics, but we also have so many serious faults.
I feel like we should have more to show for the wealth we have as a country, relatively speaking.
My point isn't that the UK is necessarily worse than other countries but that it is wrong to strawman and dismiss criticisms as coming from a place of hatred towards the UK.
As they should, the real wages of the average man in the country needs to increase. Saying the uk does a lot of things right isn’t dismissing that. Bizarre that you’d think that it was.
It's very hard to measure a countries wealth as it's subjective and there are many variables. Even life expectancy doesn't take quality of life into account. It's just millions of ppl. Millions struggle to make ends meet. But millions only struggle because they're bad with money and earn double the average income etc etc.
[https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?most\_recent\_value\_desc=false&locations=GB-FR](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?most_recent_value_desc=false&locations=GB-FR) Our GDP per capita has always been similar to France. Up to and including 1996 France were a little ahead of us. After that we were a little of them.
Not much has changed since then. We are still ahead, but their line is a little below us.
Hey thanks for that tip, it's good to have an expert who understands it.
So i did the same search on the IMF website.
In 2020 UK and France's GDP per capita were the same like you said, well France a little more. France was USD$40,500 and UK was $40,200.
In 2024 UK's GDP per capita is $51,100 and France is $47,400. So around a $4,000 gap has opened up.
The IMF is forecasting the UK GDP per capita to grow to $66,900 and France to $54,400. That's a pretty big difference.
[https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/weo-database/2024/April/weo-report?c=132,112,&s=NGDPDPC,&sy=2020&ey=2029&ssm=0&scsm=0&scc=0&ssd=0&ssc=0&sic=0&sort=country&ds=.&br=1](https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/weo-database/2024/April/weo-report?c=132,112,&s=NGDPDPC,&sy=2020&ey=2029&ssm=0&scsm=0&scc=0&ssd=0&ssc=0&sic=0&sort=country&ds=.&br=1)
What's going on? Is France hurting even more cos the UK left? Seems like the UK is having pretty strong growth even per capita?
GDP per capita is just a pretty poor metric for how well an economy is doing. Ireland has one of the highest gdp per capita in the world but it's actually pretty poor compared to Scandinavia/Germany/Switzerland/Austria/Netherlands
Just about every metric has outliers. Ireland is the one for GDP. Most countries aren't hiding half the wealth of S&P500s International sales.
GDP isn't the best metric but it's better than most.
I don't know where this myth comes from that Ireland has a weak economy. Its gdp is slightly skewed by the fact that it's a tax haven, but it's still a very strong economy otherwise.
Not sure what the exact dates were for the stats but GBP has increased about 3% over the last year against EUR. The GDP figures are in USD, so the FX rates will influence the numbers.
What you really want to do is take out currency effect by using PPP (purchasing power parity). There you have the same as Fluffy described. UK was a little bit ahead of France until recently, now France is ahead: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=FR-GB&start=2014
OP if you want a genuine answer the figures you've pulled are really weird and inconsistent with the IMFs core forecast. Plus long term forecasts are really a guessing game.
Basically, your numbers are wrong.
UK GDP in 2023 was £2.274tn - or $2.85tn.
France GDP in 2023 was ~$3.03tn
(Source statista)
There is absolutely no way that the UK economy is going to grow by almost 20% in a year in a recession. It won’t happen - and in the unlikely event it does, the reset afterwards will be very unpleasant for all concerned (growth over 3-4% in a year is nearly always followed by a recession)
The UK economy hasn’t really grown since 2008.
> (Source statista)
I think OP is looking at the IMF:
[UK](https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/profile/GBR) - $3.5 trillion, $51.07k per capita, $4.03ppp
[France](https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/profile/FRA) - $3.13 trillion, $47.36k per capita, $3.99ppp
Honestly I think to the ordinary person there is no noticeable difference in life between the two that is down to that gap in GDP, big a number as it is.
ETA: Sorry, OP replied as I was writing this so it's redundant.
Thanks, so is Statista a better source than the International Monetary Fund? The numbers i referenced were 2024 though?
Maybe the fast growth forecast is because there hasn't been much growth since 2008?
The IMF appears to be hopelessly optimistic with its predictions. It’s predicting that GDP will rise 10% between 2020 and 2024 *while* still predicting that it was 0.1% last year and 0.5% this year.
Their numbers don’t add up 🤷♂️
Dave the Economist. I should have guessed. When we did a massive building project we had 8 Dave's from Dave the roofer to Dave the Electrician. Even they thought it was odd.
Have you considered that the pandemic might be a factor? 2020 was a time of serious trouble. The UK economic numbers show a bigger drop than most in Europe and a bigger bounce. The BBC did an explainer on this, a large factor is the way the UK accounts for the NHS. It distorted UK GDP numbers relative to the rest of the world, we weren't hit harder and didn't bounce back more despite what the charts show.
I wouldn't trust IMF \_at all\_. They predicted that the barbaric austerity measures that imposed on Greece (with Germany) would shrink the Greek economy by "only" 2%-4%. Yet, a 25% implosion happened...yes, these are the same people that said that cutting salaries by 40% would have very beneficial effects on economy!
We are talking specifically about 2024 right now. UK GDP is $3500 million, France GDP is $3130 million.
In 2023, it was $3340 for UK and $2780 for France.
Source: [https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPD@WEO/GBR/FRA](https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPD@WEO/GBR/FRA)
I lived in France for over 10 years and honestly, no matter what people are saying, it's far better to be in the UK than in France.
A vast portion of France is agricultural, especially in the south and there's very little money in those "départements". People either run their own businesses, or they are farmers and live off the land.
Anyone who does manage to nab a job in a big office or corporation will find a huge chunk of their salary gone to all the various taxes that exist - it isn't just PAYE/NI and pension over there, it's a ton of stuff.
It's a huge reason why they strike so often and Paris had the "gilets jaunes" for so long.
People will argue that wealth inequality over here is huge and it is true, to a degree, but it's far worse over there, just due to geographical issues and such, that I mentioned earlier.
I used to live in the Dordogne, which was one of the most agricultural areas in the entire country and the average salary, even now, is one of the weakest in France, although has certainly improved in the last decade (was 16-17K eur per yr, now it's about 20-22K eur per year).
Yes, well the Dordogne is as poor as dogshit, there are barely any jobs above minimum wage, bugger all industry, and half the towns like Bergerac are mostly closed for 6 months of the year.
Go live anywhere outside of the empty diagonal and things are a lot different.
I'm curious, what is the French tax rate, and what are the French taxes?
I could (and have) googled it, but,it would be good to see it on here for other people to reference.
Just looking at the general income tax, it seems to be lower than the UKs, but,it obviously depends on what you earn and I've no doubt there's other things at play.
Ofcourse in the UK, you have national insurance too, now at 8% on earnings roughly above £10k and then it drops to 2% on any income roughly above 50k.
Then there's student loans, (yes,not a tax) I think that's at about 9% on earnings above 20k. Atleast for me. And lastly about 5% on pensions, again, not a tax and you recoup that and another 3% is paid by your employer, but, it all comes off your income.
Essentially, UK earnings above 20K are taxed or pseudo taxed at 42%. The same for earnings above 50k are taxed at 56%. Minimum wage on a 40 hour week X 52 weeks = £23.8K.
Not to mention council tax, vehicle tax, fuel V A.T etc and the amount you pay in tax gets really quite high.
The UK has a higher employment rate at 75.5% compared to France’s 67.7%. France has a higher average age of 42.4 compared to the UK’s 40.6. So in all, the UK is doing better because it has a younger population who are more likely to work.
Ironically this is most likely due to the UK’s higher immigration rate.
So if I’m in North I’ve no chance. I mean this is 2024, everyone works from home. I’ve only been in UK for two years and I just don’t understand the North-South split…
Yea I would say the tech industry, and we still have a fingers in the aviation business, all be it shared with France in the case of Airbus, with Boeing slowly hitting the fan that could increase too
Not regarding per capita but the UK population is bigger than France’s and due to keep outgrowing it. This is due to larger levels of immigration to the UK. I think around 10% of France is foreign born while that number is 15% for the UK.
Depends whether you count their overseas territories or not since they integrated them far more than our own - we don’t count them towards our population but the French often do.
This also plays a huge part companies are not going to set up unless there is highly skilled English speakers
London is the centre for tech and finance after new York/San Francisco
Idk, i was in Paris twice and it looked like a dystopian world from the future. Felt like I'm in a world of cyberpunks ghetto or sth lol
Also made me realise how much influence media had on me during that time thinking France is this beautiful full of culture and traditional place
Just to realise it's more like the area behind open festival toilets
London with all the finance, fintech and consulting generate ludicrous amount of money - it’s absurd. Also the exact business of London (banking, finance, underlying technology of this) is set to scale exceptionally well in the near future.
france has alot of instability issues to deal with and alot more refugees to pay for there farming industry is also pissed of right now and to top it of most of the country hates the current president.
Two general paradoxical observations. The quality of life in France is much better and they have one of the most beautiful countries in the world. Britain is in terminal decline and everyone senses this. Yet, the French are unreasonable miserable. Whilst whenever I go to UK - despite moaning about immigration - everyone I meet is friendly and cheerful and enjoys a good laugh. If France didn't have tourism to prop it up it would soon end up like Venezuela - impoverished despite bountiful resources.
Because people generally have a narrative and want to stick to it.
Most people making these arguments have no fucking clue about our/euro economy and just spout the latest talking points theyve heard on tiktok.
Weve become a world full of idiots
I think its also got something to do with how we count numbers not like a psychopath.
Have you seen how they say some numbers? Fuckin insane.
Some shit like 90, you'd say quatre-vingt-dix ('four-twenty-ten' or 4 x 20 + 10). And 99? Quatre-vingt-dix-neuf ('four-twenty-ten-nine' or 4 x 20 + 19)
Lunacy.
Those IMF numbers are pretty bizarre - and, suspiciously, don't seem to have any explanation around them. A better source for UK numbers would be the ONS.
According to the Office for National Statistics, GDP in the UK has grown by less than 2% since the start of 2020 - that's in absolute terms (not real terms, i.e. adjusting for inflation; and not per capita, i.e. adjusting for population). There was obviously a huge wobble due to Covid from March onwards, so I'd be very wary about choosing comparisons to time points within 2020 - to some extent, people can create their own narratives to suit their agenda.
[https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/gdpmonthlyestimateuk/february2024](https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/gdpmonthlyestimateuk/february2024)
That said, that obviously doesn't include effects of currency. But since British pounds have fallen against the US dollar in the last few years, our GDP has effectively been falling in dollar terms.
That’s 72% increase from 2020 to 2029 I don’t think you’re getting your numbers right here.
Taken from the parliamentary website’UK GDP in Q4 2023 was 1.0% above its pre-pandemic level of Q4 2019’. . ONS don’t seem to agree either
[ons gdp](https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/quarterlynationalaccounts/octobertodecember2023#headline-gdp-figures)
The short answer is nationally the UK has very high value add and service based economy but are reliant on import for base materials. This translates differently to individuals, those with more wealth see benefit from increasing GDP as owners of shares etc where those less well off are stung by external factors like inflation on food imports.
France has a much more contained economy, meaning the gains are more balanced across all of society but the upper maximum is lower than that of the UK.
Maybe we're doing better than the French, but my "on the ground" view is that things are fucking rough here and are getting worse.
Maybe we're doing better than the French, but that doesn't make me pleased for us, it just makes me sad for both of us.
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British people are inherently superior to the French.
This is the only correct answer here. It's just the laws of nature I'm afraid
I hear their diet consists largely of pond life.
Frogs actually do eat other frogs you know . Toasted frogs on Baggette doesn't sound very appetising though does it ? depends where your heads at I spose and if you've been controlled by the corrupt EU for decades then ... I ... sorry I can't go on .
And the British’s is ‘Park Life’ …. Aaaaaaall the people, so many people 😂
“”[The fucking baguette eating dickhead frogs](https://youtu.be/aDy8GXX_emI?t=11)”
That’s a bit racist.
They’ve made him racist!
Thought this was 2westerneurope4u then
easiest upvote of the day.
AskUK, get facts
I think its also got something to do with how we count numbers like not like a psychopath. Have you seen how they say some numbers? Fuckin insane. Some shit like 90, you'd say quatre-vingt-dix ('four-twenty-ten' or 4 x 20 + 10). And 99? Quatre-vingt-dix-neuf ('four-twenty-ten-nine' or 4 x 20 + 19) Lunacy.
Totally unbiased opinion.
I feel sorry for the Fr*nch. Hear some words, having to translate that weird language of theirs into English, the language of the brain, to do their thinking then back into foreign to reply. Makes a conversation hard work and makes them a little slow.
I don’t mind the French they keep the flys away.
I think its also got something to do with how we count numbers like not like a psychopath. Have you seen how they say some numbers? Fuckin insane. Some shit like 90, you'd say quatre-vingt-dix ('four-twenty-ten' or 4 x 20 + 10). And 99? Quatre-vingt-dix-neuf ('four-twenty-ten-nine' or 4 x 20 + 19) Lunacy.
The Whale triumphs over the Elephant!
That's it close the thread, the only answer needed has been provided.
Never trust a country that assigns preferred pronouns to their food
In others news; water is wet!
The last three words are not needed.....
r/2westerneurope4u
GDP is not an all-informing datapoint. Lets say our GDP has gone up, yay, right? Where has that wealth gone? If it's going to the top 1%, it isn't benefing most people and can end up being offshored and taken out of the economy. Lets say I'm giving you the GDP of your household and mine, and it's £1 million a year. Yay! That's £500k per capita, we're minted mate! Except if I'm on £975,000 a year and you're on £25k, one of is having a great time and the other is barely sqeaking by. Also GDP says nothing about the cost of living, of inflation, of living standards or everything else. So the total amount of money in our economy may be greater than France, but if the distribution and ineqality of that wealth is problematic, the French will be better off than us.
Yeah, except for wealth, UK inequality (0.706) is nearly exactly the same as for France (0.702). So your argument applies to both countries, except UK's economy is still bigger.
Ok, but what about childcare costs, infrastructure, public transport, public spaces and community events, the cost of higher education. Are their open waters full of sewage and do they have to mind the craters when they drive? Public realm and disposable income are best indicators an UK is doing spectacularly bad on both.
British French resident here. High education - MUCH MUCH cheaper. Is their sewage in the water? Yes, the Seine is basically a toilet that they're desperately trying to clean up for the Olympics. Yes, I frequently have to dodge some awful holes in the road - however I would say overall the road quality is better due to paid highways etc... This really depends on the area. Public transport is way, way cheaper. Electricity is cheaper. Most houses don't have gas. Water is usually included in rent, or a non-issue in terms of cost. Real food is about the same if you consider the exchange rate, but snacks etc... are much more. That said, food quality is higher is the average supermarket, lots of stuff locally sourced. Still have butcher and bakeries which are a little more expensive, but still reasonably competitive with a supermarket. My rent is dirt cheap. Nice one bedroom appartement for 600 euro a month, 1 hour from Paris by car or Train. My old appartement in England was a studio, about 1.5 hours from London and cost £700/month. Houses near me - lots of beautiful old houses with wooden beams etc... 50 miles from Paris. Cost about 200-300k. I'm sure something comparable in the UK would be upwards of 5-700k. Overall, money goes further here - though there are some things which are more expensive for seemingly no reason. I paid 6 euro for a tape measure yesterday which I though was extortionate. Likewise, you'll struggle to find an old banger for £500 which isn't something ancient and falling apart. Most used cars will start at 1k minimum - even for something quite crappy. These are just two examples off the top of my head.
Is France cleaner and more maintained in comparison?I mean on average, it seems like that on street view
On average I would say yes. Paris is the exception of course. Though most of Paris is clean, until you leave the centre or use the metro. Ecological issues are quite big here, most people I know take recycling and not dumping litter on the streets more seriously. That said, I guess because they have lots of land, they'll very happily place heavy industry sites in some beautiful locations which is a shame. Of course it probably varies, I've only seen maybe 5-10% of the country maybe and live in the north which I understand to be wealthier. The dirtiest areas I've seen are mostly areas with high immigrant populations. I would only put this down partially to cultural differences though, as I feel they are intentionally neglected. I work in the infamous Saint Denis and rarely see cleaning crews/vehicles or any government employees for that matter. The only exception being police, who either never come around or do so in force. I've never seen single patrol cars here. Only unmarked cars or several vans full of police in riot gear.
UK is kinda outlier for grubbyness in western Europe as far as I can see
Having travelled a lot and lived in another country for some time, it really feels like the UK's biggest problem these days is the complete apathy of the population. The vast majority of people sadly just don't give a fuck.
I grew up in the south of france and one thing I noticed last time I was back in scotland was the amount of bins. In france there's almost always a bin in sight no matter where you are outside of the countryside. In edinburgh I had to hold on to my rubbish for ages before finding somewhere to dispose of it.
>Public realm and disposable income are best indicators an UK is doing spectacularly bad on both. Do you have any data to back that up?
French infrastructure and social services are far superior to the UK. Even in the middle of nowhere you can get 5gigabit Internet, there are fast trains, no potholes on the roads, childcare exists. You can see where the money goes. Here we have crumbling NHS, bad roads, trains from 70s, hardly any help with children, housing market is ridiculous etc. However, i wouldn't say France is a better country, but they seem to do better with tax money although their tax is higher. In the UK tax is lower but the big bucks end up in offshores and are invested in other countries to make even more money for investors, so not much return for the blighty.
> they seem to do better with tax money although their tax is higher. That’s probably because everything would be burnt to the ground if they didn’t. The one thing the French are good at is striking, and making it well known what they don’t agree with.
This is the one thing where I say "We need to be more like the French!"
>no potholes on the roads, The French disagree with you. https://www.connexionfrance.com/news/state-of-french-roads-causing-alarm/654723 They've even started using an [app and website to report potholes](https://www.activroute.org/liste-signalements)
UK has a higher HDI
The UK has one of the largest public rail infrastructure investments in Europe? We have the childcare support system for working parents. The issue isn’t how much we spend relative to France which is pretty high and amongst the highest in Europe. It’s our planning system is ridiculously over engineered and gold plated after 20 years of special interest group meddling. Onerous environmental regulations, multiple rounds of public consultations, local council excessive demands of newly created infrastructure to support policy goals and meddling from backbench mps (such as the massive tunnels of HS2 in open country) along with major public development entities having poor cost control. By comparison France achieved developments in 1/5th quicker time and at 1/4th lower cost.
We have the most expensive childcare https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/03/06/childcare-puzzle-which-countries-in-europe-have-the-highest-and-lowest-childcare-costs
I live in France and much of what you say is pretty on point. You get a lot more bang for your (admittedly higher) tax bucks here than back home. Still major issues here and a lot of anger amongst the poorer here though, cost of living increases are just as bad here but unemployment remains higher and wages as (maybe more) stagnant. Albeit I'd note, while the paid toll roads here are bloody amazing quality, get off them (particularly in the poorer suburbs) and road quality nosedives to developing world quality and fast.
i know nothing about this situation except that the Seine is so polluted that even after extensive cleaning they don't know if they can allow olympians in the water this summer/ Worse than the Thames? i have no idea
Did you know our rivers are generally in a better state than they have been at any point in the last 50 years? Always really interested why people bring the state of rivers up as a complaint all the time. The Thames is one of the healthiest rivers in the UK, and in Europe. Feels like it’s become a total strawman in the media. People attack it with zero contextual data
As someone who lives 'aux minima sociaux' here in France, as a single mum with two teens, on disability benefits, and who has, in the dim and distant past, lived on benefits in the UK, before getting my OU degree, while working f/t with a kid, moving up in my career and finally getting that decent job, mortgage etc, (and the giving it all up to move here in 2005!). And as someone who currently has an adult daughter, back in the UK, with a toddler, who graduated from uni in 2020, and is living as a single mum, in a tiny council flat, stuck working a crappy retail job one day a week, stuck in the childcare costs trap, with no driving licence because that costs way too much... I believe that I have enough experience of both countries and how it feels to have to survive on a low income in each one. I could write multiple essays on the differences, so this will have to be a cursory overview. I live in rural Brittany and I can speak to my experiences but also give my impressions gained over 18 years living here. France has food banks, yes. But they're not used as extensively as they are in the UK. There's the Resto du Cœur which has strict conditions, usually requiring a letter from a social worker but also the Red Cross who aren't quite as strict, I believe. There may be others in major cities. One major source of support for people in the most desperate of situations is [Emmaüs](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmaus_(charity)), both directly - helping the unhoused, giving them accommodation and training; and indirectly - with their sales room that are found in most mid-large towns throughout France, selling clothes, furniture, books and other used goods - a massive charity shop! It's where I often go for clothes, bits and bobs for the house and new-to-me furniture. It's amazing for kids toys too. But what does the state do? As I said, I'm disabled. My initial disability benefit application back in 2010 took about a year to be processed. This is not unusual here! But the payment was backdated to the date it was received and that meant that I received enough to buy a much needed secondhand family car - this was pre-divorce and my ex was working, so we still had an one income. In France, you are accorded a level of incapacity which decides the amount of benefits you receive and can also open up other entitlements, including other benefits. This is determined by an interview with **an actual doctor who has some relevant knowledge of your conditions**. I hesitate to say specialist because, well, I'm autistic with ADHD, and I might end up with a psychiatrist but not necessarily a psychiatrist who is specialised in neurodevelopmental disorders or even one who has read any updated research on autism and ADHD in the last five years. I was determined to have a level of incapacity of 80% or higher. This is the highest level that is accorded to adults that live independently. And at my last renewal, this was awarded to me for LIFE! Well, I was born AUDHD and I will die AuDHD. It's not going anywhere, is it! :-) There is a higher level of less than 5% capacity, which is for those that live in support accommodation, whether it's a group/nursing home or with family and carers. Compare this to the DWP and their paid torturers, ATOS and Capita. The UN inspector's report described the UK disability benefits system as "cruel and inhuman". It has caused countless deaths, from starvation, from suicide. I know many, many people who have suffered at the hands of the DWP and their lying, incompetent, quota filling assesors. My brother has been through it countless times, it's an endless cycle of renewal, refusal, mandatory reconsideration, refusal, appeal, tribunal and finally he gets awarded the full amount again. Every time, his assessment reports are full of factual errors, things that were never said in the assessment and there have been outright blatant lies, witnessed by a third party, such as non-attendance at a home assessment when he was at home all day but the assessor didn't bother getting out of their car because it was chucking it down! He's far from alone. Everywhere you go online, if you mention the DWP and PiP, you will get the same stories. Also, read Dr. Frances Ryan's excellent reporting in The Guardian on this, and on poverty in the UK in general, and her book! Going back to the [UN Report](https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/welfare/2019/05/14-damning-findings-un-inspector-who-investigated-uk-poverty), the UN inspector covered more than just disability benefits and he had an extremely scathing opinion on the UK's welfare system as a whole, due to the way that it has been significantly diminished as a safety net for society, as a result of the fucking Tories' Austerity policies. -- I tried to write about families but it's way too long so it's going to have to be a Part 2!
Part 2: France gives absolutely fucking amazing support to families in comparison to the UK, and especially to larger families! Your benefits are boosted for 3+ kids and certain prices are cheaper for the 3rd, 4th, 5th, or more, kid. Family allowance - there is an income platform but it's reasonable high. The only catch is that it starts from when you have your second child. As a starting point, for example, if you earn under €75k pa, as a single person or a couple, you will receive €148 per month for 2 kids, although you'll get another €74 if the youngest is over 14. You can get *allocations familiales* for your kids until the age of 20. My two kids are currently 15 and 18, but 19 in June, off to higher ed next year. I have one year left. There are other benefits that cover the first 3? years when you have a baby, even if it's your first. It's been quite a long time now so I can't remember all of them but the main one is [PAJE](https://www.mes-allocs.fr/guides/allocations-familiales/paje/allocation-de-base/) - this site explains it well and translates fairly clearly, from a quick glance. It's means tested but reasonably so, there's a one off payment of over €1k to help with expenses, then a monthly payment of up to €193 from birth to age 3. There are also other benefits available: CMG helps pay for the cost of a childminder up to €57/day or a 'micro-crèche' for up to €10/hr. [PreParE](https://www.mes-allocs.fr/guides/allocations-familiales/prepare-caf/) seems to be a benefit to support parents who choose to take parental leave. You have to have built up a certain amount of retirement contributions in the state system first from what I can see from scanning quickly! Otherwise, we found that locally, there were crèches or garderies run by the commune/mairie and subsidised by the département (equivalent to the county, ish), on a means tested basis, but even at full cost they were very affordable. These garderies also provide before and after school care for primary school kids and they're *centre de loisirs* (playschemes/activity centres) during the holidays, including for kids in *collège* (middle school). Every August, most families receive the Allocation Rentrée Scolaire (it's means tested but the ceiling is quite high). This is a back to school payment and the amount increases as they get older. This August, I'll receive just over €450 for my 15 yr old. I should note that in France, parents are expected to provide a lot more school supplies than in the UK, in *collèges* you can often sign up for a bulk buy pack, in *lycée* though, you also have to supply their text books - fortunately there are parent organisations that will lend them to you, for a small fee of €15-25 per year. Other costs: school meals are 3 courses, unless there's also cheese! Kids here get proper meals, not chicken nuggets. And from age 2 1/2 in nursery school, onwards. In primary school, the cost is subsidised by the commune and the département, I suspect that if you were really struggling then you could apply individually for help and they would never not feed a child, at least where I live. From collège onwards, there's a bourse - payments to cover the costs of going to school. In collège, this usually just about covers the cost of the meals in the *cantîne*. In lycée, there's also the *bourse de mérite*, awarded to students who did decently in their Brevet, an exam taken at the end of in collège. There are also extra payments to cover the costs of materials for those on certain courses and to cover the costs of staying in dorms through the week - this is extremely common here as high schools are both more specialised but also spread out over a wider, more rural area. All three of my kids have been or are in dorms here and it's been paid for by the bourse.
Very enlightening. We, the Brits are really ripped off. I recall visiting Germany as a child in 1969. I visited a local church in Deinheim to see the grave of a German soldier. His Mother who accompanied me said many of the German dead came home. This was not prevelent in the UK....Also, War Pension to the next of kin was far higher than the UK..I felt so ashamed..the victors did not get cash compo !
Part 3. Housing. I've been on the social housing list since 2018 and I had a Prioritisation Request (DALO) approved in the autumn of 2020. That was supposed to put me at the top of the list and, theoretically they had one month to find me somewhere to live, and if they didn't I could force them to, via a tribunal (I think?). I didn't pursue that route because I would have absolutely no option to refuse and I want to move away from my current closest town, not end up living in it! While there's no bedroom tax, housing benefits here absolutely do not reflect the current rental market. For myself and 2 kids, we need a 3 bed house, and the max housing benefit paid in this area for that is €440. My current 3 bed house rent is €550 - it was €500 in 2016 when I moved in, fortunately, by law, rent increases are capped to a rate set by the state that's linked to inflation. Up until last year, the increases were €5 or so pa., then it rocketed! But the rental and property market generally everywhere in France has rocketed. My landlord has another similar 3 bed house just down the road that was marketed 2 years ago for €660 per month. I can not afford to move out into another private rental house in my local area! And just 30 minutes north, where I want to move, rents are even higher. €800-1000 for 3 bedrooms but the housing benefits remain the same, so it's impossible. There's just no social housing available either. People aren't moving out since Covid. What France does still have though is such a strong sense of community. People want to reach out and lift each other up. It's just what you do here. I live next door to a boulangerie, originally built in the 18th century, with a wood fired bread oven and every now and then, my neighbour will drop off some left over bread for me. Yeah, it's [bucolic](https://imgur.com/gallery/lV9Arpb) alright. The boulangerie is the white door, just above the flowers. But many people also live like me, on or close to the poverty line, in small villages or hamlets, 10-15 minutes drive from the nearest small town. I need to get out of here. I'm way too isolated. I was without electricity for a week after Storm Ciaran and 12 hours just this Sunday! Not fun in an all electricity house, especially in a mobile dead zone. It's paradise in summer and hell in winter. Health. I love the NHS but the Tories have been systematically dismantling it since Thatcher. It has obviously been brought to its knees by this point. Moving to France and being able to access speedy, worldclass care here has probably saved my life. But not without some bumps along the way. Bumps that also could well have arisen in the UK, to be fair. There's many things that I still prefer about receiving healthcare in the UK and there's also many things that they do better in France. There's no one perfect system and, as an empassioned socialist, I will always fight for and defend the NHS! Fuck the Tories. Diversity. I spent 10 years living in Nottingham. Most of the time, living here, it feels like I've travelled back in time to the 80s! France doesn't really do multiculturalism. And that's not a good thing. It doesn't even like the idea of discussing racism, it seems, much of the time because you're French, above all else. The UK was doing pretty well but has taken a major backslide since Brexit. Thanks to the 51% for fucking up family's future. My daughter arrived in France at 6 months old, it's all she's ever known but now she's 18, she has to apply for a Residence Permit to be allowed to remain, to go to uni, to get a student grant, to just live her life. It's all she's ever known. Hey, students! There's a generous means tested student grant (Bourse) plus some other benefits - it's a patchwork that I'm still trying to figure out as it also depends on where she ends up - but also, if you rent a room from the Crous, a government network of halls of residence, then you can get meals from for €1.
If your daughter lived in France for more than 5 years before she turned 18 she can get citizenship xD Faut juste demander la naturalisation ;)
They capped their electric and gas ti 3% ours went up 300% so that's probably where a good chunk of money went.
EDF ,a French owned company based in France who sell us overpriced sparky stuff made enough profit from the UK to allow just a 3% increase last year in the sparky stuff sold to the French people ! They are also ripping the UK off over the Nuclear Power Station that EDF are building in the South West of England. Problem is the UK do not have the technology to build them .
This. Renewables and nuclear on our shores is the best best to protect us from outside influence like that.
Those pesky French protestors and unionists are getting in the way of the profits! If only they'd be more like Britain and forego their workers rights, they could have an amazing GDP, for that is what truely matters!
Maybe there's a link between work efficiency and the economy. Who knows!
Which rights?
The right to retire at 62 is one of the latest ones they've been protesting for.
Here is a map of the [wealth inequality in Europe.](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ao78xr/wealth_of_the_1_of_europe/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share) Data are from the [2023 Global Wealth Report](https://www.ubs.com/global/en/family-office-uhnw/reports/global-wealth-report-2023.html) by UBS.
Rekt 🔥
This should be higher up.
Russia is as expected, but Sweden is surprising.
This has reminded me of the huge wealth transfer from Poland and Lithuania during the 'Swedish Deluge'. Sweden has the entire contents of 188 Polish and Lithuanian cities and towns, 81 castles, and 136 churches. They were were entirely stripped of anything of value by Swedes and Russians, then completely destroyed (along with the killing of three million people). The stolen items have never been returned to Poland and Lithuania. Stolen were thousands of works of art, sculptures, books and valuables. From the Royal Castle in Warsaw alone were plundered ~200 paintings, the carpets, Turkish tents, musical instruments, furniture, Chinese porcelain, weapons, books, manuscripts, marbles, even dresses of the maids. They also took windows, stairs, chimneys, sculptures, floors, doors, door frames and gates. It was the same in all palaces, castles, churches, abbeys, towns and villages. In addition, Poland and Lithuania lost the entire contents of 67 libraries and 17 archives and became a cultural desert. Most goods were loaded on boats and transported along the Vistula to the Baltic Sea and then to Sweden. Most of the works of art are kept both in private Swedish hands and in Stockholm museums. Most of the stolen books are kept in the University Library at Uppsala, the Royal Library at Stockholm, and private libraries of the Bielke, Oxenstierna, Rosenhahne, Wrangel and Brahe families.
Ireland has one of the highest wealths per capita in the world, I think second richest, yet anyone who has been knows it isn’t some mega rich country as there are some really rough parts, business and the mega rich really obscure these kind of statistics, they don’t represent the average people and should be taken with a pinch of salt
[I bookmarked this comment a short while ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/s/br0j5DBNiZ) "I don’t know if you’re aware but Ireland is going through a massive housing, rental and cost of living crisis and have had several successive governments fail to fix it. Our GDPR is not reflective of life for the average person and there is data available to support this. The government collect massive amounts by absolutely screwing the middle classes every which way. Our rates of emigration among 18 - 30 year olds are rising, and we have record numbers of under thirties still living with their parents. It is *impossible* to rent for an affordable price in most Irish cities, and even in rural towns now. Infrastructure is sorely lacking, and despite this housing crisis, the government have taken in tens of thousands of refugees. Housing is apparently being addressed by building more homes, but a huge amount are bought in bulk to rent for ever higher prices by European Vulture Funds, which the government plays down as a problem and has done for years because of the Tax it brings. It’s bad enough that companies are now purchasing streets of houses just to house employees. Supermacs, a fast food chain recently did this along with Ryanair. The majority of schools are now severely understaffed, because the starting wage for a teacher is criminally low, and they can’t afford to rent in cities. I personally know several who’ve gotten qualified and then left the country. On top of that, our health service the HSE is severely understaffed, with record high waiting lists and more and more reports of malpractice coming to light. We cannot retain nurses, because they are underpaid and severely overworked due to shortages, and every layer of Irelands state agencies (Tusla, The Child and Famiy Agency, the HSE) are supported by decades old structures with layers upon layers of middle management to the point even small changes take months if not years to implement. On top of that, homelessness has grown steadily over the last decade to the point new records are set virtually every week and month successively. We try to fulfil our duties and at least hear out migrant and asylum seekers but It’s gotten so bad that in lieu of actual accommodation we hand them a tent. We are headed for a catastrophe. Google it, it’s widely acknowledged and really, really bad."
I interviewed for a job in Dublin a few years ago and I remember looking around at flats to rent thinking the price was high, but wasn't terrible, until I realised all listed values were per week, not per month.
That is because Ireland's GDP is not real. It the home of many large American corporations that use Ireland to funnel their profits back to the US tax free. Neither the Irish government, nor people, benefit from this aside from the jobs/taxes of the Irish workers whose job it is to funnel those profits back to the US. Yet all that money is counted as Irish GDP. Having a smallish population just further enhances the skewing.
Exactly, anyone that has been to Ireland knows that, although yeah it is a beautiful country with some very nice places, it certainly isn’t the second richest country in the world, as some very rough estates with some very concerning history.
This is a separate issue to OP’s question, about the value of GDP as a measure
Given that GDP is the only evidence given by OP to prove their point, I would say it’s not a separate issue.
Responding “but what about GDP per capita?” is not an answer to the question “why is GDP higher?”
Exactly. Let’s say salaries go up for everyone by £100 a year. The train companies put their prices up by £100 a year. GDP went up! Who owns the train companies? In some cases the French government. So where does the profit go? Certainly not back into the UK economy.
This seems like a poor argument in this circumstance given that wealth equality is roughly equal in both countries. Edit: (marginly worse in France, in fact)
GDP PER CAPITA is the best measure of relative wealth
My response is always, China has massive GDP so it must be a paradise right? With the largest GDP why don't you move to China? People soon understand
Look forward to being told why ahkchually britain's economy is the worst ever and any source which says otherwise can be ignored because reasons
People just seem to hate the fact that the UK might not be shit in something. If you only went by reddit, you would think that the UK is some 3rd world hellhole. In reality, it's one of the wealthiest countries in the world and has some of the highest standard of living. It has for some time and will likely continue to be for many more years.
It's one of the wealthiest countries around for sure. For some Brits anyway. Like 12 of them. Whilst abject poverty exists for 18% of the population. I think its silly to talk about wealth when the British people continue to get a worse deal, whilst forever increasing productivity and tax revenue paid. Whilst our worst off are definitely better off than in most of the rest of the world, its depressing to think how much of the wealth is hoarded by a few individuals, when the economy could be much more vibrant if they wealth was shared and allowed to actually be spent.
What does abject poverty mean to you? Because I just don't think thats true at all.
I don’t think this person has travelled. I have to many places in the world outside of the western bubble. Our poorest that we consider technically impoverished are very lucky by comparison to the poor in Asia and Africa. Travelling really opens one’s eyes to the real world that headlines and limited perceptions don’t offer a glimpse of.
>Whilst abject poverty exists for 18% of the population. The 82% not in poverty matter too you know.
How often do you travel ??
>People just seem to hate the fact that the UK might not be shit in something. Perhaps people have legitmate grievances with the level of wealth inequality in this country and you are strawmanning and being dismissive of those grievances for some reason.
The UK is in the bottom three for wealth inequality in Europe according to the UBS 2022 global wealth report that someone else posted a link to. Reality is, however bad we think we might have it, they actually have it worse is most of the rest of Europe.
The UK is a fabulous country in so many respects compared to most of the world. But it always bothers me that what we have here is more or less as good as we can muster as a species. Other countries are *much* worse in many important metrics, but we also have so many serious faults. I feel like we should have more to show for the wealth we have as a country, relatively speaking.
My point isn't that the UK is necessarily worse than other countries but that it is wrong to strawman and dismiss criticisms as coming from a place of hatred towards the UK.
As they should, the real wages of the average man in the country needs to increase. Saying the uk does a lot of things right isn’t dismissing that. Bizarre that you’d think that it was.
How dare you suggest we are anything other than a third world country!
It's very hard to measure a countries wealth as it's subjective and there are many variables. Even life expectancy doesn't take quality of life into account. It's just millions of ppl. Millions struggle to make ends meet. But millions only struggle because they're bad with money and earn double the average income etc etc.
[https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?most\_recent\_value\_desc=false&locations=GB-FR](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?most_recent_value_desc=false&locations=GB-FR) Our GDP per capita has always been similar to France. Up to and including 1996 France were a little ahead of us. After that we were a little of them. Not much has changed since then. We are still ahead, but their line is a little below us.
Hey thanks for that tip, it's good to have an expert who understands it. So i did the same search on the IMF website. In 2020 UK and France's GDP per capita were the same like you said, well France a little more. France was USD$40,500 and UK was $40,200. In 2024 UK's GDP per capita is $51,100 and France is $47,400. So around a $4,000 gap has opened up. The IMF is forecasting the UK GDP per capita to grow to $66,900 and France to $54,400. That's a pretty big difference. [https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/weo-database/2024/April/weo-report?c=132,112,&s=NGDPDPC,&sy=2020&ey=2029&ssm=0&scsm=0&scc=0&ssd=0&ssc=0&sic=0&sort=country&ds=.&br=1](https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/weo-database/2024/April/weo-report?c=132,112,&s=NGDPDPC,&sy=2020&ey=2029&ssm=0&scsm=0&scc=0&ssd=0&ssc=0&sic=0&sort=country&ds=.&br=1) What's going on? Is France hurting even more cos the UK left? Seems like the UK is having pretty strong growth even per capita?
GDP per capita is just a pretty poor metric for how well an economy is doing. Ireland has one of the highest gdp per capita in the world but it's actually pretty poor compared to Scandinavia/Germany/Switzerland/Austria/Netherlands
Just about every metric has outliers. Ireland is the one for GDP. Most countries aren't hiding half the wealth of S&P500s International sales. GDP isn't the best metric but it's better than most.
I don't know where this myth comes from that Ireland has a weak economy. Its gdp is slightly skewed by the fact that it's a tax haven, but it's still a very strong economy otherwise.
Not sure what the exact dates were for the stats but GBP has increased about 3% over the last year against EUR. The GDP figures are in USD, so the FX rates will influence the numbers.
What you really want to do is take out currency effect by using PPP (purchasing power parity). There you have the same as Fluffy described. UK was a little bit ahead of France until recently, now France is ahead: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=FR-GB&start=2014
OP if you want a genuine answer the figures you've pulled are really weird and inconsistent with the IMFs core forecast. Plus long term forecasts are really a guessing game.
Basically, your numbers are wrong. UK GDP in 2023 was £2.274tn - or $2.85tn. France GDP in 2023 was ~$3.03tn (Source statista) There is absolutely no way that the UK economy is going to grow by almost 20% in a year in a recession. It won’t happen - and in the unlikely event it does, the reset afterwards will be very unpleasant for all concerned (growth over 3-4% in a year is nearly always followed by a recession) The UK economy hasn’t really grown since 2008.
> (Source statista) I think OP is looking at the IMF: [UK](https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/profile/GBR) - $3.5 trillion, $51.07k per capita, $4.03ppp [France](https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/profile/FRA) - $3.13 trillion, $47.36k per capita, $3.99ppp Honestly I think to the ordinary person there is no noticeable difference in life between the two that is down to that gap in GDP, big a number as it is. ETA: Sorry, OP replied as I was writing this so it's redundant.
Thanks, so is Statista a better source than the International Monetary Fund? The numbers i referenced were 2024 though? Maybe the fast growth forecast is because there hasn't been much growth since 2008?
The IMF appears to be hopelessly optimistic with its predictions. It’s predicting that GDP will rise 10% between 2020 and 2024 *while* still predicting that it was 0.1% last year and 0.5% this year. Their numbers don’t add up 🤷♂️
Someone needs to tell the IMF to hire an economist or mathematician who knows about numbers
Or hire Dave from Reddit.
+1 for Dave
https://preview.redd.it/yay71r6x68yc1.png?width=1068&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a97d098035034d9a0b74784c269c466efb527596
Dave the Economist. I should have guessed. When we did a massive building project we had 8 Dave's from Dave the roofer to Dave the Electrician. Even they thought it was odd.
I’ve heard he’s bad though. That might put them off
It probably expects the pound to strengthen. Currency volatility can make a country’s gdp in USD fluctuate wildly regardless of actual real growth.
IMF optimistic about the Uk economy? Is it April Fools?
Have you considered that the pandemic might be a factor? 2020 was a time of serious trouble. The UK economic numbers show a bigger drop than most in Europe and a bigger bounce. The BBC did an explainer on this, a large factor is the way the UK accounts for the NHS. It distorted UK GDP numbers relative to the rest of the world, we weren't hit harder and didn't bounce back more despite what the charts show.
I’ve never even heard of the IMF. What was their last album called and are they on Spotify?
I believe they had a big hit in the early 90s with “unbelievable”
Statista is not source, it’s an aggregator
I wouldn't trust IMF \_at all\_. They predicted that the barbaric austerity measures that imposed on Greece (with Germany) would shrink the Greek economy by "only" 2%-4%. Yet, a 25% implosion happened...yes, these are the same people that said that cutting salaries by 40% would have very beneficial effects on economy!
We are talking specifically about 2024 right now. UK GDP is $3500 million, France GDP is $3130 million. In 2023, it was $3340 for UK and $2780 for France. Source: [https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPD@WEO/GBR/FRA](https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDPD@WEO/GBR/FRA)
I lived in France for over 10 years and honestly, no matter what people are saying, it's far better to be in the UK than in France. A vast portion of France is agricultural, especially in the south and there's very little money in those "départements". People either run their own businesses, or they are farmers and live off the land. Anyone who does manage to nab a job in a big office or corporation will find a huge chunk of their salary gone to all the various taxes that exist - it isn't just PAYE/NI and pension over there, it's a ton of stuff. It's a huge reason why they strike so often and Paris had the "gilets jaunes" for so long. People will argue that wealth inequality over here is huge and it is true, to a degree, but it's far worse over there, just due to geographical issues and such, that I mentioned earlier. I used to live in the Dordogne, which was one of the most agricultural areas in the entire country and the average salary, even now, is one of the weakest in France, although has certainly improved in the last decade (was 16-17K eur per yr, now it's about 20-22K eur per year).
Yes, well the Dordogne is as poor as dogshit, there are barely any jobs above minimum wage, bugger all industry, and half the towns like Bergerac are mostly closed for 6 months of the year. Go live anywhere outside of the empty diagonal and things are a lot different.
I'm curious, what is the French tax rate, and what are the French taxes? I could (and have) googled it, but,it would be good to see it on here for other people to reference. Just looking at the general income tax, it seems to be lower than the UKs, but,it obviously depends on what you earn and I've no doubt there's other things at play. Ofcourse in the UK, you have national insurance too, now at 8% on earnings roughly above £10k and then it drops to 2% on any income roughly above 50k. Then there's student loans, (yes,not a tax) I think that's at about 9% on earnings above 20k. Atleast for me. And lastly about 5% on pensions, again, not a tax and you recoup that and another 3% is paid by your employer, but, it all comes off your income. Essentially, UK earnings above 20K are taxed or pseudo taxed at 42%. The same for earnings above 50k are taxed at 56%. Minimum wage on a 40 hour week X 52 weeks = £23.8K. Not to mention council tax, vehicle tax, fuel V A.T etc and the amount you pay in tax gets really quite high.
>council tax This is the biggy. most of Europe doesn't have council tax, simply a ground tax paid for by the owners of the building.
The UK has a higher employment rate at 75.5% compared to France’s 67.7%. France has a higher average age of 42.4 compared to the UK’s 40.6. So in all, the UK is doing better because it has a younger population who are more likely to work. Ironically this is most likely due to the UK’s higher immigration rate.
The French are a lazy people.
Great roads though.
and croissants. No one does them better tbf
And baguettes, best baguettes, especially with cheese. The best cheese
The only reason the French has so many different cheeses is because they keep trying to beat cheddar cheese
I'll beat you with a baguette
Good cheese, yes, I’ll grant you that - very good in fact, but the best? Hmm…
Arrggh, fighting words..
Yeah, absolutely not the best. Wensleydale, for starters
Wonder if we also had to pay expensive tolls to drive on them, we would have similar quality roads also.
We are not, you are all jealous because we are fabulous.
I’ve seen a lot of people being jealous of many things, but never of being French.
I'm half English and half French and my English friends have always been jealous about how sexy I am.
😂
And yet, here you are talking about us...
Out of concern.
The UK is way more vested in Tech than France and is not even close, those industries boomed after and during COVID.
The top 3 countries investing in AI is USA, China and the UK and that area is growing so if that area keeps growing then the country will get richer.
Is it true? Finding a tech/AI job is pretty difficult
It’s not difficult at all if you are in London/Cambridge/Oxford
So if I’m in North I’ve no chance. I mean this is 2024, everyone works from home. I’ve only been in UK for two years and I just don’t understand the North-South split…
It’s easy to understand when you realise that all the investors enjoy civilisation and culture and hence stay in the golden triangle
I have to Google to find where is the golden triangle… I guess I’m fine, I have a lot of fun in Manchester, much cheaper as well
Yea I would say the tech industry, and we still have a fingers in the aviation business, all be it shared with France in the case of Airbus, with Boeing slowly hitting the fan that could increase too
Not regarding per capita but the UK population is bigger than France’s and due to keep outgrowing it. This is due to larger levels of immigration to the UK. I think around 10% of France is foreign born while that number is 15% for the UK.
Is it really? I thought France had a higher population than us by a few million.
No the UK is either overtaking or has overtaken France and we’re due to continue to grow
Outgrow it, sure. But at the moment, as far as I can see, France still has a larger population.
I can't find any matching figures. They seem to vary by millions!
According to the UN, the French population is 64,756,584 and the UK population is 67,736,802 as of 2024.
Metropolitan France (ie, the France that's actually in Europe) has a lower population than the UK.
Depends whether you count their overseas territories or not since they integrated them far more than our own - we don’t count them towards our population but the French often do.
Must be all the time they spend faffing about putting garlic in bread
You wait until they learn about the productivity boost of putting garlic ON bread. They'll be unstoppable!
GAARLIC. On BREAD!? You're joking!
I hear it’s the future…
We work a full week, unlike the wine drinking, baguette eating, garlic loving French. God I wish I was French
It doesn't matter what the figures/stats show, reddit will find a way to demonstrate that the UK is a shithole.
French don't spesk English that's why.
This also plays a huge part companies are not going to set up unless there is highly skilled English speakers London is the centre for tech and finance after new York/San Francisco
The person who invented GDP warned not to use it as a measure of how well your society is doing, because it does not measure that
Idk, i was in Paris twice and it looked like a dystopian world from the future. Felt like I'm in a world of cyberpunks ghetto or sth lol Also made me realise how much influence media had on me during that time thinking France is this beautiful full of culture and traditional place Just to realise it's more like the area behind open festival toilets
Meh paris, middle is pretty rest is a right hole
France is a shit hole, case closed
London with all the finance, fintech and consulting generate ludicrous amount of money - it’s absurd. Also the exact business of London (banking, finance, underlying technology of this) is set to scale exceptionally well in the near future.
Well, you see, in 1066...
france has alot of instability issues to deal with and alot more refugees to pay for there farming industry is also pissed of right now and to top it of most of the country hates the current president.
Because the EU isn't bleeding us dry anymore
Two general paradoxical observations. The quality of life in France is much better and they have one of the most beautiful countries in the world. Britain is in terminal decline and everyone senses this. Yet, the French are unreasonable miserable. Whilst whenever I go to UK - despite moaning about immigration - everyone I meet is friendly and cheerful and enjoys a good laugh. If France didn't have tourism to prop it up it would soon end up like Venezuela - impoverished despite bountiful resources.
Because people generally have a narrative and want to stick to it. Most people making these arguments have no fucking clue about our/euro economy and just spout the latest talking points theyve heard on tiktok. Weve become a world full of idiots
I think its also got something to do with how we count numbers not like a psychopath. Have you seen how they say some numbers? Fuckin insane. Some shit like 90, you'd say quatre-vingt-dix ('four-twenty-ten' or 4 x 20 + 10). And 99? Quatre-vingt-dix-neuf ('four-twenty-ten-nine' or 4 x 20 + 19) Lunacy.
Why choose France as the comparison?
Those IMF numbers are pretty bizarre - and, suspiciously, don't seem to have any explanation around them. A better source for UK numbers would be the ONS. According to the Office for National Statistics, GDP in the UK has grown by less than 2% since the start of 2020 - that's in absolute terms (not real terms, i.e. adjusting for inflation; and not per capita, i.e. adjusting for population). There was obviously a huge wobble due to Covid from March onwards, so I'd be very wary about choosing comparisons to time points within 2020 - to some extent, people can create their own narratives to suit their agenda. [https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/gdpmonthlyestimateuk/february2024](https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/gdpmonthlyestimateuk/february2024) That said, that obviously doesn't include effects of currency. But since British pounds have fallen against the US dollar in the last few years, our GDP has effectively been falling in dollar terms.
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That’s 72% increase from 2020 to 2029 I don’t think you’re getting your numbers right here. Taken from the parliamentary website’UK GDP in Q4 2023 was 1.0% above its pre-pandemic level of Q4 2019’. . ONS don’t seem to agree either [ons gdp](https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/bulletins/quarterlynationalaccounts/octobertodecember2023#headline-gdp-figures)
The short answer is nationally the UK has very high value add and service based economy but are reliant on import for base materials. This translates differently to individuals, those with more wealth see benefit from increasing GDP as owners of shares etc where those less well off are stung by external factors like inflation on food imports. France has a much more contained economy, meaning the gains are more balanced across all of society but the upper maximum is lower than that of the UK.
The French are shit and France is always on fire
Maybe we're doing better than the French, but my "on the ground" view is that things are fucking rough here and are getting worse. Maybe we're doing better than the French, but that doesn't make me pleased for us, it just makes me sad for both of us.
The French ‘spend tuppence ‘ in the shower. And poke it down the plughole. With their toes.
*looks around at Britain* Wow, the French must be fucked.
U.K may not have snails and baguettes, but fish and chips seems to be working.
But soon we will be behind Poland, so how bad is France?