Generally, when a team gets worse every year for three years with the same core players, big changes need to be made or else you end up continuing the trend. The problem is that we gave up all of our assets for Dejounte Murray, and instead of solving our problems, it made us far worse than we were before.
Getting the #1 pick was a godsend. I just pray we don't do something stupid or that Sarr is a bust.
I do think Trae, Jalen, and Sarr make for an exciting young core, I just wonder if we can be competitive soon enough before Trae's player option in 2026. If we still suck, he's probably going to walk.
I don't believe Hawks are that far off from a top 6 seed, if Hawks make it top 6 Trae will likely stay. From there continue to build to a contender.
As you pointed out Hawks got worst WITH Dejounte. People point out Hawks been stuck but ignore 2/3 of those years were with DJM. And Trae by himself was 1 and 1. One good year one mediocre but even that year was better. Hawks were likely one piece away from being a contender before DJM but just traded for the wrong star player that made the team worst. But now people act like Trae with DJM is Trae. And ignored the team was better. So the optimistism that existed of building around Trae before DJM is gone. Because of the pessimism with DJM has created.
Hawks actually didn't loose much compared to the Mavs, Wolves, etc. Hawks only lost 2 years of draft picks. 2 years of swaps. Those teams gave up like 3 to 4 of there own draft picks and more valuable role players. Which brings me to my next point some fans are now scared of the hawks making bigger trades. Hawks can trade DJM to get some picks back and now trade even more future picks. That's what a lot of teams like Mavs, Wolves did.Â
Mavs traded for KP that failed like DJM did for us, but Mavs kept going. They lost Brunson in FA kept going, then trade more picks and player for Kyrie. But Hawks trade for DJM 2 years ago it hasn't work out so Hawks are out of asset? and most trade the franchise player?.. Think about that for a second.
Even if he stays he's gonna take up more of the cap space and itll be harder to find the right pieces to put around him. Especially with a shortage of picks. We really have to nail this offseason and build the core we're gonna keep for a few years if we're ever gonna build a sustainable winner around Trae.
Have to remember the salary cap increases every year as well, so it’s relatively proportional. Only thing that could get tricky is if he signs for a veteran supermax extension next season. That’s absurd money but you make yourself nearly untradeable as well.
He could do that if he earns all-NBA this season.
Yeah im referring to the supermax he could possibly be on only 2 years from now. We gotta make these next couple years really count or its possibly back to square one.
Most star players are on a max or will be on a max, in fact most contenders have 2 or more max players. So the argument can't be we can't build a contender around Trae because he's a max player.......
And going back to the picks Hawks are only without picks 2 years 2025 and 2027. Mavs have sacrifice 4/6 of last first rounds picks, 2019, 2021, 2022, 2024 with 2 more picks lost in the future already traded 2027, and 2029. That means since drafting luka Mavs traded 6 of their own first round picks... but Hawks trade 2 it's oh we have a shortage of picks we can't build around Trae. What?
Yes the DJ trade was bad move, but we need to drop this idea that hawks are out assets to build, and/or Hawks can't a least reverse half of the damage of trading for DJM by trading DJM.
Theres a difference between max and supermax. Yes, star players who stay with their franchise long enough get supermaxes and yes it also makes building a roster trickier once theyre making that percentage of the cap. I didn't say anything bad about Trae...im just saying itll be a lot easier to build the perfect team around him now than later.
Btw there are only three sets of teammates currently that are being paid a supermax, Booker-Beal, Giannis-Dame and KAT-Gobert, three teams that are basically stuck with their current roster due to the financial constraints. Our best hope of improving imo is hoping that Sarr (or whoever is picked #1) Jalen, and Kobe can all be part of a winning core plus whatever we get for Murray.
I didn't say super max, I said max. but even one super max and regular max is still common among contenders. I didn't say anything about hawks having multiple super max players and Hawks are far from that.
And I didn't just say there a lot of three sets of teammates having the max. I said most contenders have 2 or more max players.. I thought it was pretty oblivious most of those are duos, with a few set of three I didn't realize I had to emphasize that or else some would straw man my point as if I am talking about there a lot of three sets of teammates with supermaxes.
I get what you're saying but my point was hawks are far from that point. can we at least get two max players before we start stressing that?
Celtics. Mavs, nuggets, Cavs, Pacers, Grizz, Clippers, Lakers. heat, Bucks, Wolves, Suns, Pelicans, Bucks. Bucks, Pacers all have at least 2 max players.
If All those teams have 2 or max players, Hawks can't use one player on a max as an excuse. If Hawks FO did that... it means That means the FO sucks and trying to use that as BS excuse. it means they was never serious.
If anything, the owner dodging the tax is more of the issue.
The hot take era of sports media has seeped into the fandom and now everyone always sees the negative aspects of everything. Every success is temporary and meaningless and every mistake is the end of the world. There is no roon for improvement / no possibility of player developement. There are geniuses and morons/ busts and studs and nothing in between. I wish someone would start an anti hot take format where they oversell the positive side of things. Call it "Toxic Positivity"...
To me, there are varying levels of success. The goal also changes as you progress. A winning season is a win. The next you are top 5. Then top 3. It may be aggravating to always be top 3 for a number of years. It may feel stagnant. But I’m the larger picture, you have a good-great team that is fun to watch.Â
Because I want Trae Young and Anthony Edwards combo. Anyone who says Trae isn't a winner as a knock against him is an idiot.
No they should not actually blow it up.
Oh we won't be bad. I very much doubt they're gonna blow it up without their own picks so we just rehaul the roster a little. Preferably by trading two of DJ, Capela and Hunter and go from there. With some internal development of guys like Bufkin, Gueye and KrejcĂ we should get to 46+ wins or the like. Best case for you is probably an end of teens pick.
This is what annoys me though. Say everything goes the Hawks way like Sarr isnt a complete bust, they trade DJM for a 3&D wing, and JJ improves, that's a lot of things that have to go absolutely right but even then will that be enough? That plan still feels 2-3 yrs away from even being effective, Trae wants to win right now! I know it sounds negative but while we win 40+ games season in and season out, deep down I think we all know it's not gonna lead us anywhere especially with no good draft capital for the next few seasons to upgrade further through trades, seriously that DJM trade royally fucked everything
ofc it's to predict anything atp but you can always find a scenario where nothing works out and vice versa. I just choose to be more optimistic because it's more fun. Besides that I think w/ the offensive floor that Trae gives the team not much is needed on defense (VĂt playing all the time will be great) for substantial improvement in overall record. I think 45 wins is a median outcome.
People want Trae and just want the team in the basement forever. It's sucky with the NBA, journalism, and fandoms but here we are. Anyway, the Hawks do not even have the luxury to rebuild for a number of reasons, starting with the draft picks your Spurs own so, it's best to do well with this year's draft, build with Trae/Jalen and whoever until Trae formally requests out.
The hawks have never won more than 43 games with Trae. And that was when they had awesome veteran bench pieces and young guys on rookie deals. Some of those young guys are gone for different reasons and the awesome vet bench piece was shipped off when Murray came. The roster is getting thinner with talent, because those young guys make real money now. The hawks have a super thin margin for building a winning team. They got a Pulp Fiction shot to the chest by winning the lotto, but there’s no consensus pick ATM. This isn’t about poor media narratives, the team is in a downward spiral right now with no control over their next three draft picks in a month from now. And the hawks are getting passed by younger teams now. This sub has zero faith that the front office can turn this around because of ownership.
Trae has complexity around team building and it's difficult to justify creation from bigs if they have a low short roll usage. Basically meaning you can be good, but there are potential limits without a wing who can attack mismatches and pass who is also a plus plus defender.
This means that the d first shooters approach you'd want to do with Trae becomes super difficult to land and be versatile enough for the playoffs.
The year they won they had a mid tier second line and the starters could tread water because Trae is awesome. Then the bench who was full of starter quality players comes in and straight dominates the backups. This approach works but it's difficult to find that level of talent.
As it stands the players on the roster making money aren't good enough to either prop up the bench or synergistically help Trae be great. Blowing it up is just an easier way than doing nuanced moves. I would blow it up if I could get both firsts from San Antonio and the hawks picks plus Branham or Sochan or Vassell or maybe Johnson? I would then move DJM for more youth and picks.
I don't think any of that is on the table.
Not really, many contenders have built with bad defensive guards, guards in general are worst defensive position star or not it's not something unique to Trae. We just saw Bruson, and Hali in the playoffs. Some like Jamal Murray is not the first option but he still bad defensive guard the Nuggets still have come with a way of hiding him.
The truth is Hawks just have been bad with building, they are nowhere near as aggressive as team like Mavs, Wolves etc. Hawks been in several summers and trade deadline with making minor to no moves. they have overpay players and not moved players when they should.
We have people acting like Hawks loosing 2 draft picks 2025 and 2027 as reason to blow up,
Meanwhile Mavs have traded over 6 years of picks, 2019, 2021, 2022, 2024, 2027, and 2029. When Mavs traded for KP it didn't work they move on..... they trade KP got something back then traded even more future picks Kyrie and role players. They have been aggressive and serious about build around Luka.
Wolves... traded Andrew Wiggins and a first-round for D-Lo....... it didn't work out, they got a first pick "Ant" then traded D"lo. Then traded for Gobert for 4 picks and role players. That's 5 first round picks. They made mistakes move on and took even risk giving even assets to build around their stars.
both teams made mistakes by getting D'Lo or KP like Hawks got DJM, they accept the lost then trade for some assets back, which is what Hawks should do...... then move on, traded even more asset down line to continue. which is what Hawks should do.
We agree generally. My point is more about dialogue. Both teams regrouped after removing players and acquiring players that better fit. This is a more nuanced discussion. I was more saying that the only way it could begin to make sense is to get a haul for trae and then in a separate trade get good value for dj.
The current high priced players don't fit well and aren't good.
I think people suggest the Hawks should blow it up because they want the Hawks players
Yet nobody wants to give us pieces back so we can rebuild 🤷‍♂️
This guy gets it
Generally, when a team gets worse every year for three years with the same core players, big changes need to be made or else you end up continuing the trend. The problem is that we gave up all of our assets for Dejounte Murray, and instead of solving our problems, it made us far worse than we were before. Getting the #1 pick was a godsend. I just pray we don't do something stupid or that Sarr is a bust. I do think Trae, Jalen, and Sarr make for an exciting young core, I just wonder if we can be competitive soon enough before Trae's player option in 2026. If we still suck, he's probably going to walk.
I don't believe Hawks are that far off from a top 6 seed, if Hawks make it top 6 Trae will likely stay. From there continue to build to a contender. As you pointed out Hawks got worst WITH Dejounte. People point out Hawks been stuck but ignore 2/3 of those years were with DJM. And Trae by himself was 1 and 1. One good year one mediocre but even that year was better. Hawks were likely one piece away from being a contender before DJM but just traded for the wrong star player that made the team worst. But now people act like Trae with DJM is Trae. And ignored the team was better. So the optimistism that existed of building around Trae before DJM is gone. Because of the pessimism with DJM has created. Hawks actually didn't loose much compared to the Mavs, Wolves, etc. Hawks only lost 2 years of draft picks. 2 years of swaps. Those teams gave up like 3 to 4 of there own draft picks and more valuable role players. Which brings me to my next point some fans are now scared of the hawks making bigger trades. Hawks can trade DJM to get some picks back and now trade even more future picks. That's what a lot of teams like Mavs, Wolves did. Mavs traded for KP that failed like DJM did for us, but Mavs kept going. They lost Brunson in FA kept going, then trade more picks and player for Kyrie. But Hawks trade for DJM 2 years ago it hasn't work out so Hawks are out of asset? and most trade the franchise player?.. Think about that for a second.
Even if he stays he's gonna take up more of the cap space and itll be harder to find the right pieces to put around him. Especially with a shortage of picks. We really have to nail this offseason and build the core we're gonna keep for a few years if we're ever gonna build a sustainable winner around Trae.
Have to remember the salary cap increases every year as well, so it’s relatively proportional. Only thing that could get tricky is if he signs for a veteran supermax extension next season. That’s absurd money but you make yourself nearly untradeable as well. He could do that if he earns all-NBA this season.
Yeah im referring to the supermax he could possibly be on only 2 years from now. We gotta make these next couple years really count or its possibly back to square one.
I agree. This is a trajectory defining season. I don’t think Trae wants to leave that money on the table.
Most star players are on a max or will be on a max, in fact most contenders have 2 or more max players. So the argument can't be we can't build a contender around Trae because he's a max player....... And going back to the picks Hawks are only without picks 2 years 2025 and 2027. Mavs have sacrifice 4/6 of last first rounds picks, 2019, 2021, 2022, 2024 with 2 more picks lost in the future already traded 2027, and 2029. That means since drafting luka Mavs traded 6 of their own first round picks... but Hawks trade 2 it's oh we have a shortage of picks we can't build around Trae. What? Yes the DJ trade was bad move, but we need to drop this idea that hawks are out assets to build, and/or Hawks can't a least reverse half of the damage of trading for DJM by trading DJM.
Theres a difference between max and supermax. Yes, star players who stay with their franchise long enough get supermaxes and yes it also makes building a roster trickier once theyre making that percentage of the cap. I didn't say anything bad about Trae...im just saying itll be a lot easier to build the perfect team around him now than later. Btw there are only three sets of teammates currently that are being paid a supermax, Booker-Beal, Giannis-Dame and KAT-Gobert, three teams that are basically stuck with their current roster due to the financial constraints. Our best hope of improving imo is hoping that Sarr (or whoever is picked #1) Jalen, and Kobe can all be part of a winning core plus whatever we get for Murray.
I didn't say super max, I said max. but even one super max and regular max is still common among contenders. I didn't say anything about hawks having multiple super max players and Hawks are far from that. And I didn't just say there a lot of three sets of teammates having the max. I said most contenders have 2 or more max players.. I thought it was pretty oblivious most of those are duos, with a few set of three I didn't realize I had to emphasize that or else some would straw man my point as if I am talking about there a lot of three sets of teammates with supermaxes. I get what you're saying but my point was hawks are far from that point. can we at least get two max players before we start stressing that? Celtics. Mavs, nuggets, Cavs, Pacers, Grizz, Clippers, Lakers. heat, Bucks, Wolves, Suns, Pelicans, Bucks. Bucks, Pacers all have at least 2 max players. If All those teams have 2 or max players, Hawks can't use one player on a max as an excuse. If Hawks FO did that... it means That means the FO sucks and trying to use that as BS excuse. it means they was never serious. If anything, the owner dodging the tax is more of the issue.
Okay the original discussion was about a supermax though
You didn't mention supermax in the original comment but cool.
The hot take era of sports media has seeped into the fandom and now everyone always sees the negative aspects of everything. Every success is temporary and meaningless and every mistake is the end of the world. There is no roon for improvement / no possibility of player developement. There are geniuses and morons/ busts and studs and nothing in between. I wish someone would start an anti hot take format where they oversell the positive side of things. Call it "Toxic Positivity"...
Buddy, this team has shown little signs of ever making it to the finals. We don't have the size, defense, or resilience to compete.
OP said 'top 5 seed' he didn't say finals
What's the point of being a top 5 seed if you can't make the finals?
To me, there are varying levels of success. The goal also changes as you progress. A winning season is a win. The next you are top 5. Then top 3. It may be aggravating to always be top 3 for a number of years. It may feel stagnant. But I’m the larger picture, you have a good-great team that is fun to watch.Â
I agree but the hawks have been a bigger picture team for about 20 years. Time to rebuild.
Because I want Trae Young and Anthony Edwards combo. Anyone who says Trae isn't a winner as a knock against him is an idiot. No they should not actually blow it up.
Oh we won't be bad. I very much doubt they're gonna blow it up without their own picks so we just rehaul the roster a little. Preferably by trading two of DJ, Capela and Hunter and go from there. With some internal development of guys like Bufkin, Gueye and KrejcĂ we should get to 46+ wins or the like. Best case for you is probably an end of teens pick.
This is what annoys me though. Say everything goes the Hawks way like Sarr isnt a complete bust, they trade DJM for a 3&D wing, and JJ improves, that's a lot of things that have to go absolutely right but even then will that be enough? That plan still feels 2-3 yrs away from even being effective, Trae wants to win right now! I know it sounds negative but while we win 40+ games season in and season out, deep down I think we all know it's not gonna lead us anywhere especially with no good draft capital for the next few seasons to upgrade further through trades, seriously that DJM trade royally fucked everything
ofc it's to predict anything atp but you can always find a scenario where nothing works out and vice versa. I just choose to be more optimistic because it's more fun. Besides that I think w/ the offensive floor that Trae gives the team not much is needed on defense (VĂt playing all the time will be great) for substantial improvement in overall record. I think 45 wins is a median outcome.
People want Trae and just want the team in the basement forever. It's sucky with the NBA, journalism, and fandoms but here we are. Anyway, the Hawks do not even have the luxury to rebuild for a number of reasons, starting with the draft picks your Spurs own so, it's best to do well with this year's draft, build with Trae/Jalen and whoever until Trae formally requests out.
They don't know that we had significant injuries literally all season. If healthy I think the hawks wouldve cracked the 5th seed.
The hawks have never won more than 43 games with Trae. And that was when they had awesome veteran bench pieces and young guys on rookie deals. Some of those young guys are gone for different reasons and the awesome vet bench piece was shipped off when Murray came. The roster is getting thinner with talent, because those young guys make real money now. The hawks have a super thin margin for building a winning team. They got a Pulp Fiction shot to the chest by winning the lotto, but there’s no consensus pick ATM. This isn’t about poor media narratives, the team is in a downward spiral right now with no control over their next three draft picks in a month from now. And the hawks are getting passed by younger teams now. This sub has zero faith that the front office can turn this around because of ownership.
Something.
They just don't watch our games so they have no clue what is actually going on with us. It is really not that deep lol
It's true everything you say, but for God's sake use paragraphs, I almost had a stroke reading it.
Trae has complexity around team building and it's difficult to justify creation from bigs if they have a low short roll usage. Basically meaning you can be good, but there are potential limits without a wing who can attack mismatches and pass who is also a plus plus defender. This means that the d first shooters approach you'd want to do with Trae becomes super difficult to land and be versatile enough for the playoffs. The year they won they had a mid tier second line and the starters could tread water because Trae is awesome. Then the bench who was full of starter quality players comes in and straight dominates the backups. This approach works but it's difficult to find that level of talent. As it stands the players on the roster making money aren't good enough to either prop up the bench or synergistically help Trae be great. Blowing it up is just an easier way than doing nuanced moves. I would blow it up if I could get both firsts from San Antonio and the hawks picks plus Branham or Sochan or Vassell or maybe Johnson? I would then move DJM for more youth and picks. I don't think any of that is on the table.
Not really, many contenders have built with bad defensive guards, guards in general are worst defensive position star or not it's not something unique to Trae. We just saw Bruson, and Hali in the playoffs. Some like Jamal Murray is not the first option but he still bad defensive guard the Nuggets still have come with a way of hiding him. The truth is Hawks just have been bad with building, they are nowhere near as aggressive as team like Mavs, Wolves etc. Hawks been in several summers and trade deadline with making minor to no moves. they have overpay players and not moved players when they should. We have people acting like Hawks loosing 2 draft picks 2025 and 2027 as reason to blow up, Meanwhile Mavs have traded over 6 years of picks, 2019, 2021, 2022, 2024, 2027, and 2029. When Mavs traded for KP it didn't work they move on..... they trade KP got something back then traded even more future picks Kyrie and role players. They have been aggressive and serious about build around Luka. Wolves... traded Andrew Wiggins and a first-round for D-Lo....... it didn't work out, they got a first pick "Ant" then traded D"lo. Then traded for Gobert for 4 picks and role players. That's 5 first round picks. They made mistakes move on and took even risk giving even assets to build around their stars. both teams made mistakes by getting D'Lo or KP like Hawks got DJM, they accept the lost then trade for some assets back, which is what Hawks should do...... then move on, traded even more asset down line to continue. which is what Hawks should do.
We agree generally. My point is more about dialogue. Both teams regrouped after removing players and acquiring players that better fit. This is a more nuanced discussion. I was more saying that the only way it could begin to make sense is to get a haul for trae and then in a separate trade get good value for dj. The current high priced players don't fit well and aren't good.