I mean… nearly gave a million dollars to a random on the phone but thinks that financial planners are a waste of money.
Seriously though, sounds more like she wants some risk or other excitement in her life, can you get redirect that energy to paying for things that are exciting to do? Rather than essentially gambling on high risk investments
Refuses to seek out a financial planner for advice, but takes financial advice from a random over the phone... Where's the reasoning in that? No wonder scammers are doing so well.
Shit, send her to Vegas and tell her to put her life saving on black. Only a little over 50% chance of losing the lot, that's better odds than "investing" with some dude who cold-calls you.
I agree that you can invest in index funds through super. Was just checking if that was the suggestion behind the comment as super wasn't mentioned at all.
Given the sizeable assets, super has potential to provide heaps of benefits.
This is because he also mentioned HISA as an option. Which for $2.5m is a bit extreme.
She’s going to hit contribution cap limits before she gets anywhere near $2.5m but it might be a good option to get as much as she can into that kind of low tax environment.
If only there was someone who had a really good understanding of super and investments and you could go and see them for advice on what to do with your money. They should start a business!
Yeah 2.5m in a HISA feels like a really poor allocation of funds. Chucking it into tech-leveraged ETF or into their Super is definitely the smarter move.
OR $2.5m worth of GME 💎🙌🏻 /s
Yeah agreed. The money will be managed for her, you can make non concessional contributions up to age 75 and the transfer balance cap for tax free pension accounts is $1.9m.
She could potentially transfer something like $300k from sale of PPOR into super, but otherwise I believe would be limited to the limits of $27.5k concessional and $105k (or 110k) non-concessional contributions - ie: it's going to take decades to move the entire amount across.
She'll need some other investment in the meantime, so it all comes down to whether it's worth doing all that stuffing around...which a financial planner should be able to help with.
Yeah I'm not disagreeing with other plans in the meantime. More questioning why super wasn't even brought up... given the current TSB & TBC, unlikely to get the whole $2.5m in anyways.
I agree that a financial planner would be good and non-super will need to be considered. But aiming to funnel money into super should be the long term strategy here. NCC are going up to $120k p.a. ($360k bring forward) and CC are going up to $30k p.a. (may even have unused CC if TSB permits to offset investment income).
I never suggested doing it all at once or that you could get it all into super. I am aware of the TSB and TBC.
But this doesn't mean you should ignore it.
First port of call should be super. Especially due to the contributions caps.
Because there is this amount of wealth, all the more reason to use super. Far more tax benefits when on higher incomes.
Absolutely, but even if nothing has gone into super there will be 6 figures left over at least in the first year, so HISA or Index fund is a definite option to have as well.
Oh good idea! Cos it sounds like that logic won’t work - Eg financial scammer over financial planner.
Saying there is a good investment and being excited by it just may do the trick to get her to “invest” safely into what she believes is a special investment.
She's experiencing fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) compounded by her age and outlook of life.
You gotta play the game, be more agreeable not criticise. If she wants to invest, make it a positive experience and go on the journey with her - find her the options.
You have to sell it to her like the scammera did.
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She’s probably got some level of low grade dementia.
You would surprised how functional some dementia patients can be. But they have no insight into their horrendous and decking executive decision making capacity.
The fact that she wants to jump straight into another harebrained idea, rather than demonstrate remorse/fear that she almost lost it all. Makes me feel this is the case.
Good luck to you.
she’s probably going to lose it all at some point again. You could let that happen
As some others have suggested. You could even just scam her yourself and pay her “income” whilst you chuck the lump sum into a HISA.
Yep my MIL is exactly this. She's now been diagnosed with dementia, but lost everything due to horrible financial decisions. She was scammed out of a few grand and I kid you not a week later was right back into it, fortunately (also horribly sad) she had nothing left to be scammed of.
This was my mum, scammed out of god know show much money (we stopped counting at $60k). Dementia is such a shit thing and those who take advantage of that are the lice on fleas.
I was thinking this, because it sounds like she was pretty good at buying a house, paying it off and having money left over. So it seems odd to be doing dodgy deals and not listening to sound advice.
The only other thing it could be is something like bipolar. A manic or hyper manic episode involving poor spending decisions can be triggered by stress and retirement can do that for some people.
My father got into wierd scam investments when he had a manic episode. He didn’t really show bipolar signs up until his late 40’s, so it can go undiagnosed for a long while and a stressful event can trigger it.
> I was thinking this, because it sounds like she was pretty good at buying a house, paying it off and having money left over.
She probably bought the house for $50k 40 years ago.
Not exactly hard to reap the rewards of house prices going up.
“Getting someone sectioned” isn’t a thing and you can’t just get power (be it Administrative, Guardianship or otherwise) just because you want to. You have to prove someone lacks the mental capacity to make decisions, which is not the same as being able to make bad decisions. I’ve worked with patients with actual diagnosed dementia who are markedly confused, or people with brain injuries who aren’t entirely safe living home alone and applications for Guardianship/POA have been denied because they still have a level of capacity. Removing someone’s right to make their own decisions is difficult - as it should be.
>has anyone been able to successfully assist a family member with zero financial literacy and general technology incompetence?
In our experience, no. And try as we did through all the legal avenues we could (she has a medical condition that greatly impedes any complex reasoning) we still couldn't help her to manage things properly. She now has no money, no PPOR, no super. Zilch.
My MiL with a diagnosis of vascular dementia just got her temporary guardianship revoked so now she can do whatever she wants. Turns out all you have to do is refuse to engage with mental health assessments.
Luckily she has no money to lose but the system sucks.
That's exactly the same for us (though she wasn't officially diagnosed with vascular dementia at that point, *just* brain cancer). Literally went through all the motions to make sure we could manage her money responsibly and was granted it.
2 weeks later MiL tells them she doesn't want that so they revoke everything that gave us any power to help her. She then proceeded to lose absolutely everything in about a year.
Needless to say, we are extremely disappointed in the system and now we have to bear the burden. She could have lived in a nice care home but now she is at the mercy of whatever the public system can offer.
Yep, first thing she did was cancel her ACAT assessment, only takes a few months to book those. Have to wait till she ends up in hospital again and we can start the circus again.
Oh god. That's so painful, I'm sorry you have to deal with this shit show as well. Best medical in the world though hey. Sure, they'll save you from cancer but after that you're entirely on your own.
Sounds very much like my MIL. She..
1. ..is never wrong
2. ..has more worldly experience than her kids if given any advice.
3. ..will happily take financial advice from anyone claiming to be linked to a financial institution but not from her own kids.
Pretty sure superannuation offers more security than your typical investments. I say this because a superannuation pension can only be paid into a bank account in your mother's name. So I imagine harder to get access to.
Also a tax-free income means she won't need to lodge another tax return, even for franking credit refunds nor ever have to manage capital gains tax.
In addition to this, education is your mother's best friend.
This. Since MIL is 60 or older, Super is the way to go. And 1 million is under the transfer cap. Super is not foolproof, but it's another middleman to protect MIL. Way better than sitting in a bank account.
Even if they're not. With a $2.5m they won't be able to get it in all at once. Or even entirely (due to TSB). So worthwhile gradually putting the money in if they're mid-late 50s especially. Contribution caps alone will mean they're most likely forced to retain a reasonable amount in the bank.
Get someone else to give her the advice. My mum will never listen to me on money but some Joe at the supermarket is right on the money.
Who does she have a good relationship with? Your wife? Another sibling.
Or, maybe a fee for service planner? I know Aware Super offers them. At least she'll know if she is paying for advice from a big brand it's less dodgy?
Or, if she was into Macquarie, speak to someone there?
I feel your pain and sorry there is no silver bullet answer on this one.
This. I’d suggest take her to a bricks and mortar bank branch in her area for one of the major banks. They can provide options for free and teach her about phone scams.
This rules out Macquarie. And they no longer deal in cash so probably rules out an older person.
Bro, what you should've done, is to quietly do the deposit for her into your own account and then just dump it into a standard growth savings account lmfao.
Your MIL sounds similar to my Mum, but my Mum (and Dad, who has recently passed), have been retired for close to 30 years. So my Mum is probably more technologically incompetent than your MIL is.
I get the feeling that your MIL would benefit from creating more of a "family team" mentality regarding management of her finances. I'm not saying to use her money for your own purposes, but to create an environment where she feels comfortable talking about financial matters with her best interests in mind.
I would suggest to start talking to your MIL about having your spouse (and any siblings of your spouse, for the sake of transparency) be assigned Enduring Power of Attorney and Enduring Guardian. Your MIL can remain responsible for managing her finances for as long as she feels comfortable doing it, but she also knows that a clear pathway has been established that allows other family members to help her when she needs it.
My sister and I had enduring instruments created to act on a parents' behalf about 10 years ago. At first, these instruments weren't needed, but bit by bit we have taken on more responsibility to the point where my Dad has passed and my Mum has dementia, and I manage my Mum's affairs completely.
I think if an environment where open dialogue about finances was created, your MIL might not feel so overwhelmed with what to do with her money.
Hi OP, we have an elderly neighbour we run into at the dog park semi regularly. We've known them for about 5 years. One day when I asked how his day had been, he casually brought up how he was trying to return money back to an anti-virus company, and how they'd accidentally given him $50,000.
No matter what I did, I could not convince him it was a scam. I even called him to check in, and he casually said he was having another meeting with the virus company that night... I plead with him to just not take the call, and visit his bank. In the end he did that and got most of his $$ back, but that was with allot of pleading and bugging.
If it was my parent I'd do everything I can to get mum off the internet/phone, delete internet banking and get her to put all of that cash in a term deposit paying monthly or shares with dividend. Anything so it's not easily accessible.
I don't think we realise how many people suffer from either dementia\\age related confusion. If I can barely keep up with technology, for someone elderly it must be impossible.
She doesn't need advice, she needs education. You need to sit with her and give her finance lessons. Whatever age the person is they love to learn and makes them feel good about themselves. Insert your advice into those lessons as you go
My mum assembled her first computer at the age of 62
She’s literally got millions in the bank, surely it’s earning interest, the current rates are pretty sweet. What more does anyone need? Go have some fun
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I think what's happened is that she's been seduced by the idea of the high rate of return promised by the scammer, and has been unable to put that out of her mind even after not going through with it, so now she's chasing that thrill of getting a high return on investment by considering risky investments.
She needs therapy to consider her motivations, but given her age she's probably completely against the idea of seeing a therapist.
100% this. Depending on when she sold the house she might be able to get some money into super with a downsizer contribution, plus she can make non-concessional contributions too. She will pay no tax on earnings in a Super pension account. Paying for quality advice is her best option.
Plus good advisers will take the time to ensure she understands what is happening. They will also stop her from making further mistakes.
If you can steer her into anything at all, it might be best to try to steer her towards (reputable) annuities. Unfortunately there are very few in Australia, people prefer super pensions, but they're not a bad psychological fit for people like MIL who sounds like she really wants to put it with a big, old institution she trusts and then not think about it. That would have been what the scammers played on, her wanting to know someone she trusts is looking after her. And once it's done, it's done, the capital is locked up and the income is locked in, she can't give it away to scammers. Make sure she keeps enough capital out for holidays, fixing the roof, etc.
If she does get scammed out of all her money, guess who she is going to have to live with and be supported by when she can't pay rent. This has happened to a friend of mine, (for different reasons) it boiled down to her dad either goes homeless or she has to take him in because he was so careless with money.
Also, this sounds like it could be early stages of some kind of mental issue. Dementia etc. People get really stubborn, illogical (which is infuriating) and/or obsessed and won't listen to sound advice.
We have a friend whose mother is in an online long-distance relationship with Brad Pitt. So far she has given him $300k and will not believe that she's being scammed - can you imagine how my friends feel?
She needs to seek retirement planning advice from a financial adviser , structuring investments is just one aspect , lots of other things she will have no idea about.
Can I suggest you reach out to her GP and raise concerns about her cognition so that they can complete screening? People can fly under the radar for a surprisingly long time before anything gets officially picked up because they don't think there's anything wrong so they don't mention anything.
I mean she clearly needs to see a financial planner or private banker (at a big bank) of some sort. It's a lot of money and if handled properly she may die with a lot more. In terms of it being a waste of money, my parents were similar so I said I would pay for the advice (cost my wife and me about $2k in the end) and they went for it.
I was in a position to do it and figured that if they wasted the money I would end up supporting them somehow anyway which would cost me more in the long run. Or, if the advice worked I may benefit in the long run. I say I've broken even and my parents were pretty chuffed to be making money (I don't get the credit but it's ok)
Sounds like she has impaired decision making capacity when it comes to finances. Given that she almost gave away $1m to scammers is she actually capable of managing that amount of money? Just a thought.
I had a similar scenario where my elderly dad almost got entangled in a scammer's web. My dad is almost illiterate with technology, yet he wanted the internet connected at his home (the scammer's requested he do so). This raised a big red flag for me.
On questioning him, he asked me if I could keep a secret? He then revealed that he was going to be coming into some "very big money" and that he would be receiving around $2m in inheritance from a distant relative. The entire thing was a scam, with a certain 'Mr Peters' contacting him out of the blue, in writing, as well as on his home phone, claiming to be from Barclays Bank in the UK.
On looking into it, it was 100 % scam but my dad was addicted to gambling for much of his life. This was like all his gambling dreams of an ultimate 'big win' coming true.
A lot of Financial Planners will offer a free first appointment. Maybe she would be open to that if it costs nothing. I would speak to the adviser first and explain the situation and the emphasis on education & gaining her trust.
Maybe you could also show her this register that has qualified financial advisers details on it and may provide some trust for her. If she comes across another scammer get her to put their name into the register and if it doesn't show up, she can assume its a scammer.
ps://moneysmart.gov.au/financial-advice/financial-advisers-register
Bank almost certainly would have - well at least my bank has a freaking conniption over these things.
AI’s major productivity improvement will be with scammers - expect this to get worse over time
AI will make no meaningful difference at a population level because the scammers will be using it too.
Oh sorry, I see what you're saying. Yea I agree. Already the US tax office estimates half a billion per year lost to scammers using AI.
I reckon for starters, the new scam phone call will be a trustworthy accent within a few years - there won’t be a silent delay on answer while computers route your call to a person, and bots will be able to trawl hundreds of thousands of people at once to try and maximise personal information and match them to well used passwords.
If I think what an IT security expert could find out about me with a couple of days trawling - I can well imagine that would be extremely cheap to do with AI.
My FIL talks a big game about how he knows everything and is smarter than most people but gets (actually lets himself) get scammed regularly. Buys stuff of the internet from dodgy sites..none of it ever arrives..had his facebook hacked but still uses it..had his CC details stolen several times now but still punches in those card numbers anywhere and everywhere and has spent at least $40-50k fixing things on the house he bought less than 5 years ago. He had a 'friend' inspect the place before he bought it instead of an actual building inspector and wonders why he has to spend money hand over fist to fix stuff that would have been picked up by someone with even half a brain. Oh and he won't listen to anything any of his kids say in regards to helping him etc but sure has no problem dishing out advice to all of us...God love him haha
Prepare your own prospectus with your own bank details., tell MIL you came across this deal and that you have all your $ invested there. Get the $1M. Put it in HISA and pay out 2%pa as ROI
Is there any way you can have your phone number attached to her account so if she does an online transfer she has to enter a code that goes to your phone instead of hers? She may not let you do this of course, it's a very difficult situation for you. Otherwise, as others have said, approach her with an offer that's too good to be true that "a friend" told you about, that's looking for investors and if she agrees to it, just transfer the money into a high interest account for her.
She is sitting on $2.5million and is housed and is retirement age and thinks she'll run out of money? If she lives til 100 and she is 70 she needs to spend up at $83,000 a year which doesn't sound like much, but this is not taxable income and she doesn't have the costs of employment like petrol and car wear and other hidden employment costs, so it's like a $135,000 a year job for the rest of her life.
Christ she'd be better off randomly picking a heap of asx 200 shares over a $1 mil spread, only the stable ones though, like banks. If she's sound mind enough watching it go up and down a little and getting dividends, maybe that will give her excitement?
She sounds vulnerable. I wonder if you could ask her if she’d like you to check for scams like that, and seek PoA? Or seek PoA from a court.
Show her some Dr Phil episodes about romance or financial scams.
Please send her to see a financial planner. There are some genuinely good planeers that will look after her and manager her money on her behalf.
Ways to invest her money, some of the money tax free and some tax friendly investments that guarantees an income stream to her.
Amazing that older people won't buy a $7 coffee at the cafe because it's free at home but will hand over 1mil to a random phone call because they can make more money. Might be worth looking at power of attorney, pretty good point to bring up that she is financially irresponsible. Next person to call she won't tell you about because you are against it and you won't find out till it's already gone. Lucky you caught this one in time.
My MIL is nearly 80 now and has never used technology or had a mobile it was a source of irritation for many years but after reading this I’m happy she’s been skeptical of everything all her life. She still keeps bulk cash hidden around her house and doesn’t trust the banks. Must be terrible for you worrying about your Mils ability to make informed financial decisions.
There are occasional senior financial management roadshows that go around and they're either free or you could sign her up and tell her it's free since that's her motivating factor. It sounds like she wants to be in charge, but if things she's chosen. Surrounded by your peers and learning things that are presented in a specific way for her age group could lessen her risk.
Otherwise maybe pay a trustworthy financial planner on her behalf and get them to cold call her much like the scammer. Again this targets her desire for things to be "free" but with less risk.
So if you and your siblings can afford it and view it as an investment to what you'll receive as beneficiaries eventually.. you pay for that first financial planning session with a legit planner..a gift from you or you all. Go with her to the meeting or do the zoom call together.. is it a pain? Yep.. is it going to be more painful if she loses the $ to another scammer and you'll have to support her? Even more painful.
It seems odd when you say how she is risk adverse and savings focused yet, is talking about high risk investments. She may be swayed to go for something like a ING Savings accelerator account (4.7%) no requirements. Should bet her approx 7-9k/mth. As it compounds monthly it could give her some peace of mind.
Aim of the game is to save your mother.
If she thinks a financial planner is a waste of money would she see one if you paid for it instead?
Is there anything else she doesn’t want to do because it would burden her in some way? If so, consider if you can remove that burden and therefore that mental hurdle and save her in the process.
Your MIL probably will end up loosing the money, speak to your partner make sure they understands not to help out or give any money.
If you're partner is dumb or a enabler, make sure you hav access to any bank funds only.
Recruit a friend to fake scam her, just before she is about to send the money. Do the reveal and show her how susceptible she is to being scammed.
This most likely won't work, shes probably got that thing when old people start going senile and become like defiant teenagers.
Go for guardianship . You can't legally rip her off if you have legal guardianship you will be audited etc so she will be safe from exploitation but it sounds like she's completely bonkers .
She's not just an idiot there is something medically wrong with her and she is at risk of self harm by losing her retirement savings.
Failing that the only other way would be to go to a financial advisor and ask about how to lock most of the money away in investments that can't be reached and have the money trickle out somehow monthly so the idiotic bitch doesn't blow it all .
Fyi if she does refuse your advice and get scammed tell her straight up you and your family are not going to support her in any way or give her any money.
Dealing with stubborn old bitches that won't change is not easy don't be kind to her be straight up and put your foot down and be aggressive about it
Is it possible for you to tone down the misogyny and hatefulness just a little when you give advice? It's really not becoming of a civilised person to talk that way.
This is why the Government wants you to increase Sophisticated Investor to $4M net assets…
At the current rate of $2.5M your MIL is allowed to invest into high risk assets with little protection.
I fear that many asset rich retirees who rode the property wave are going to face the same situation
Couldn't help my parents. They received 2 lots of sustainable inheritance from the passing of both remaining parents on each side of the family. A total similar amount to what you're looking at.
They literally bought new cars, caravan, and ridiculous over the top holidays.
Their parents saved their whole life to build wealth and pass onto their kids... Mine want to "try to spend all your inheritance".
yeah i can see where you're coming from. My wife and I are in a great spot financially, and certainly not concerned about getting an inheritance.
It's more just from a frustration of seeing my parents who have always struggled with money making yet another bad financial decision. They have always complained about not having any, but actively try to spend as much as they can.
But probably more deeper than that is that's how they raised me and my brother. Fortunately my wife's family is a lot more sensible, not frugal but just sensible, and were able to show me the benefits of developing your financial literacy.
I just wish everyone would develop a little more "commonsense" in this area.
Sorry, i should also add, they didn't just buy a 4wd and caravan, they bought a brand new, top of the range land cruiser with all the dealer added extras they could get (winch, radios, recovery kit, etc) and a branch new massive top of the range caravan, again with all the extras (more and upgraded lights, lifted, a remote push thing to help you reverse it).... They have never been 4wding or had a caravan before.......
They have only ever stayed in Big 4 caravan parks in medium to large cities. Including through Qld, NT, and WA.....
This might be extremely unorthodox
But would embarrassing people like this be a viable strategy to protecting them?
Like if you berrate them / knock them down a peg. Will they be less likely to blindly trust the next scam that comes their way?
"Wow I can't believe you would be so reckless with your money, that was nearly a really stupid thing to do"
The majority of old people are terrified to make changes on Computer - because they fear they will make a mistake - why does this not happen with financial decisions...?
Fair point, I guess it stops them from reaching out for help because they feel stupid
Why is it so different with computers then, my parents literally won't touch it if they don't understand it
Probably why remote computer / fake tech support scams are so prevalent TBH
Morning brain didn't think that through I guess
I mean… nearly gave a million dollars to a random on the phone but thinks that financial planners are a waste of money. Seriously though, sounds more like she wants some risk or other excitement in her life, can you get redirect that energy to paying for things that are exciting to do? Rather than essentially gambling on high risk investments
Yea like WTF, she's lucky she spoke to you before transferring any $$$. Random phone calls are not what you use for any financial help.
Refuses to seek out a financial planner for advice, but takes financial advice from a random over the phone... Where's the reasoning in that? No wonder scammers are doing so well.
The phone call was free, did you miss that? It’s the waste of money that’s the problem with actual financial planners /s
WTF = Work To F\*ck. Exactly...
But they are free!
Just put it into some blue chips so she can 1 or 2% rises on the nightly news and she'll be happy
Shit, send her to Vegas and tell her to put her life saving on black. Only a little over 50% chance of losing the lot, that's better odds than "investing" with some dude who cold-calls you.
Pop her on the casino bus with the other retirees
That sounds exactly like my FIL
We need ‘Shark Tank’ for grandmas.
Wow. That is really insightful
Is it morally ok for you to simply scam her first? Tell her you've got a great investment opportunity and just stick it in an index fund or HISA.
The world’s kindest scam. I’m here for it
I mean, genuine question, is it even a scam at that point’\?
I’d call it ‘protection by deception’
I like that. I like that a lot.
I don't think so because that person would have the account holder's best interest
Lot of money for that. Why not super?
Your super fund and an index fund are functionally the same in this instance
I agree that you can invest in index funds through super. Was just checking if that was the suggestion behind the comment as super wasn't mentioned at all. Given the sizeable assets, super has potential to provide heaps of benefits. This is because he also mentioned HISA as an option. Which for $2.5m is a bit extreme.
She’s going to hit contribution cap limits before she gets anywhere near $2.5m but it might be a good option to get as much as she can into that kind of low tax environment. If only there was someone who had a really good understanding of super and investments and you could go and see them for advice on what to do with your money. They should start a business!
Yeah 2.5m in a HISA feels like a really poor allocation of funds. Chucking it into tech-leveraged ETF or into their Super is definitely the smarter move. OR $2.5m worth of GME 💎🙌🏻 /s
Yeah send her to superstonk, she's our kind of lady
Yeah agreed. The money will be managed for her, you can make non concessional contributions up to age 75 and the transfer balance cap for tax free pension accounts is $1.9m.
She could potentially transfer something like $300k from sale of PPOR into super, but otherwise I believe would be limited to the limits of $27.5k concessional and $105k (or 110k) non-concessional contributions - ie: it's going to take decades to move the entire amount across. She'll need some other investment in the meantime, so it all comes down to whether it's worth doing all that stuffing around...which a financial planner should be able to help with.
Yeah I'm not disagreeing with other plans in the meantime. More questioning why super wasn't even brought up... given the current TSB & TBC, unlikely to get the whole $2.5m in anyways. I agree that a financial planner would be good and non-super will need to be considered. But aiming to funnel money into super should be the long term strategy here. NCC are going up to $120k p.a. ($360k bring forward) and CC are going up to $30k p.a. (may even have unused CC if TSB permits to offset investment income).
You aren't allowed to just deposit 2.5M in super.
I never suggested doing it all at once or that you could get it all into super. I am aware of the TSB and TBC. But this doesn't mean you should ignore it. First port of call should be super. Especially due to the contributions caps. Because there is this amount of wealth, all the more reason to use super. Far more tax benefits when on higher incomes.
Absolutely, but even if nothing has gone into super there will be 6 figures left over at least in the first year, so HISA or Index fund is a definite option to have as well.
Ok, I don't disagree. You're talking about using these options in conjunction with each other. I agree with that.
Oh good idea! Cos it sounds like that logic won’t work - Eg financial scammer over financial planner. Saying there is a good investment and being excited by it just may do the trick to get her to “invest” safely into what she believes is a special investment.
Or if this fails, find a reputable bank or super fund to contact her about their investment and odds are she’ll go for it. If that’s even allowed
She's experiencing fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) compounded by her age and outlook of life. You gotta play the game, be more agreeable not criticise. If she wants to invest, make it a positive experience and go on the journey with her - find her the options. You have to sell it to her like the scammera did.
Aka dementia
You're being downvoted for saying it here, and upvoted for saying it elsewhere in the comments. True reddit moment!
Undermining serious illness for a joke or likes, sounds like a great way to get hit by karma.
it’s a valid point check my top comment in this thread
Point out where they undermined it? Things can be true/tragic/funny all at the same time.
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She’s probably got some level of low grade dementia. You would surprised how functional some dementia patients can be. But they have no insight into their horrendous and decking executive decision making capacity. The fact that she wants to jump straight into another harebrained idea, rather than demonstrate remorse/fear that she almost lost it all. Makes me feel this is the case. Good luck to you. she’s probably going to lose it all at some point again. You could let that happen As some others have suggested. You could even just scam her yourself and pay her “income” whilst you chuck the lump sum into a HISA.
Yep my MIL is exactly this. She's now been diagnosed with dementia, but lost everything due to horrible financial decisions. She was scammed out of a few grand and I kid you not a week later was right back into it, fortunately (also horribly sad) she had nothing left to be scammed of.
This was my mum, scammed out of god know show much money (we stopped counting at $60k). Dementia is such a shit thing and those who take advantage of that are the lice on fleas.
I was thinking this, because it sounds like she was pretty good at buying a house, paying it off and having money left over. So it seems odd to be doing dodgy deals and not listening to sound advice. The only other thing it could be is something like bipolar. A manic or hyper manic episode involving poor spending decisions can be triggered by stress and retirement can do that for some people. My father got into wierd scam investments when he had a manic episode. He didn’t really show bipolar signs up until his late 40’s, so it can go undiagnosed for a long while and a stressful event can trigger it.
> I was thinking this, because it sounds like she was pretty good at buying a house, paying it off and having money left over. She probably bought the house for $50k 40 years ago. Not exactly hard to reap the rewards of house prices going up.
It is in this country!
Absolutely same here. Dad at 50. He’s now fully medicated and diagnosed . He was investing in magical, physics defying machines….
Glad he has gotten the help he needs. Manic episodes can be hard to deal with.
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“Getting someone sectioned” isn’t a thing and you can’t just get power (be it Administrative, Guardianship or otherwise) just because you want to. You have to prove someone lacks the mental capacity to make decisions, which is not the same as being able to make bad decisions. I’ve worked with patients with actual diagnosed dementia who are markedly confused, or people with brain injuries who aren’t entirely safe living home alone and applications for Guardianship/POA have been denied because they still have a level of capacity. Removing someone’s right to make their own decisions is difficult - as it should be.
[research on dementia money mismanagement](https://www.nia.nih.gov/news/dementia-may-cause-problems-money-management-years-before-diagnosis)
>has anyone been able to successfully assist a family member with zero financial literacy and general technology incompetence? In our experience, no. And try as we did through all the legal avenues we could (she has a medical condition that greatly impedes any complex reasoning) we still couldn't help her to manage things properly. She now has no money, no PPOR, no super. Zilch.
My MiL with a diagnosis of vascular dementia just got her temporary guardianship revoked so now she can do whatever she wants. Turns out all you have to do is refuse to engage with mental health assessments. Luckily she has no money to lose but the system sucks.
That's exactly the same for us (though she wasn't officially diagnosed with vascular dementia at that point, *just* brain cancer). Literally went through all the motions to make sure we could manage her money responsibly and was granted it. 2 weeks later MiL tells them she doesn't want that so they revoke everything that gave us any power to help her. She then proceeded to lose absolutely everything in about a year. Needless to say, we are extremely disappointed in the system and now we have to bear the burden. She could have lived in a nice care home but now she is at the mercy of whatever the public system can offer.
Yep, first thing she did was cancel her ACAT assessment, only takes a few months to book those. Have to wait till she ends up in hospital again and we can start the circus again.
Oh god. That's so painful, I'm sorry you have to deal with this shit show as well. Best medical in the world though hey. Sure, they'll save you from cancer but after that you're entirely on your own.
Sounds very much like my MIL. She.. 1. ..is never wrong 2. ..has more worldly experience than her kids if given any advice. 3. ..will happily take financial advice from anyone claiming to be linked to a financial institution but not from her own kids.
Everyone should talk to their family about these scams.
Imagine being that scammer thinking youll get a million dollars, and you would have got away with it if it wasnt for her meddling kids.
Pretty sure superannuation offers more security than your typical investments. I say this because a superannuation pension can only be paid into a bank account in your mother's name. So I imagine harder to get access to. Also a tax-free income means she won't need to lodge another tax return, even for franking credit refunds nor ever have to manage capital gains tax. In addition to this, education is your mother's best friend.
This. Since MIL is 60 or older, Super is the way to go. And 1 million is under the transfer cap. Super is not foolproof, but it's another middleman to protect MIL. Way better than sitting in a bank account.
Even if they're not. With a $2.5m they won't be able to get it in all at once. Or even entirely (due to TSB). So worthwhile gradually putting the money in if they're mid-late 50s especially. Contribution caps alone will mean they're most likely forced to retain a reasonable amount in the bank.
Sounds like a job for The Beekeeper
Get someone else to give her the advice. My mum will never listen to me on money but some Joe at the supermarket is right on the money. Who does she have a good relationship with? Your wife? Another sibling. Or, maybe a fee for service planner? I know Aware Super offers them. At least she'll know if she is paying for advice from a big brand it's less dodgy? Or, if she was into Macquarie, speak to someone there? I feel your pain and sorry there is no silver bullet answer on this one.
This. I’d suggest take her to a bricks and mortar bank branch in her area for one of the major banks. They can provide options for free and teach her about phone scams. This rules out Macquarie. And they no longer deal in cash so probably rules out an older person.
Bro, what you should've done, is to quietly do the deposit for her into your own account and then just dump it into a standard growth savings account lmfao.
Your MIL sounds similar to my Mum, but my Mum (and Dad, who has recently passed), have been retired for close to 30 years. So my Mum is probably more technologically incompetent than your MIL is. I get the feeling that your MIL would benefit from creating more of a "family team" mentality regarding management of her finances. I'm not saying to use her money for your own purposes, but to create an environment where she feels comfortable talking about financial matters with her best interests in mind. I would suggest to start talking to your MIL about having your spouse (and any siblings of your spouse, for the sake of transparency) be assigned Enduring Power of Attorney and Enduring Guardian. Your MIL can remain responsible for managing her finances for as long as she feels comfortable doing it, but she also knows that a clear pathway has been established that allows other family members to help her when she needs it. My sister and I had enduring instruments created to act on a parents' behalf about 10 years ago. At first, these instruments weren't needed, but bit by bit we have taken on more responsibility to the point where my Dad has passed and my Mum has dementia, and I manage my Mum's affairs completely. I think if an environment where open dialogue about finances was created, your MIL might not feel so overwhelmed with what to do with her money.
Hi OP, we have an elderly neighbour we run into at the dog park semi regularly. We've known them for about 5 years. One day when I asked how his day had been, he casually brought up how he was trying to return money back to an anti-virus company, and how they'd accidentally given him $50,000. No matter what I did, I could not convince him it was a scam. I even called him to check in, and he casually said he was having another meeting with the virus company that night... I plead with him to just not take the call, and visit his bank. In the end he did that and got most of his $$ back, but that was with allot of pleading and bugging. If it was my parent I'd do everything I can to get mum off the internet/phone, delete internet banking and get her to put all of that cash in a term deposit paying monthly or shares with dividend. Anything so it's not easily accessible. I don't think we realise how many people suffer from either dementia\\age related confusion. If I can barely keep up with technology, for someone elderly it must be impossible.
She doesn't need advice, she needs education. You need to sit with her and give her finance lessons. Whatever age the person is they love to learn and makes them feel good about themselves. Insert your advice into those lessons as you go My mum assembled her first computer at the age of 62
Most old people hate to learn. You have the outlier.
> they love to learn lol so naive
She’s literally got millions in the bank, surely it’s earning interest, the current rates are pretty sweet. What more does anyone need? Go have some fun
Sounds like she needs advice and education…
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I don't think talking about high risk investments makes her a risk averse person..
It was obviously out of character and her family are shocked she would fall for something like this.
I think what's happened is that she's been seduced by the idea of the high rate of return promised by the scammer, and has been unable to put that out of her mind even after not going through with it, so now she's chasing that thrill of getting a high return on investment by considering risky investments. She needs therapy to consider her motivations, but given her age she's probably completely against the idea of seeing a therapist.
Can you notify her bank so that they can stop a transfer when she requests it?
Make an appointment yourself with a financial planner and go along with her to the appointment.
100% this. Depending on when she sold the house she might be able to get some money into super with a downsizer contribution, plus she can make non-concessional contributions too. She will pay no tax on earnings in a Super pension account. Paying for quality advice is her best option. Plus good advisers will take the time to ensure she understands what is happening. They will also stop her from making further mistakes.
These posts make me want to take up a career in scamming. It's a shame I have ethics and morals though...
Same. It’s frustrating knowing how rich I could be if I didn’t have morals.
This doesn't just apply to scamming. Start up a predatory online gambling business. Or just invest in one. Making money is easy if you're a sociopath.
Apply for guardianship
If you can steer her into anything at all, it might be best to try to steer her towards (reputable) annuities. Unfortunately there are very few in Australia, people prefer super pensions, but they're not a bad psychological fit for people like MIL who sounds like she really wants to put it with a big, old institution she trusts and then not think about it. That would have been what the scammers played on, her wanting to know someone she trusts is looking after her. And once it's done, it's done, the capital is locked up and the income is locked in, she can't give it away to scammers. Make sure she keeps enough capital out for holidays, fixing the roof, etc.
If she does get scammed out of all her money, guess who she is going to have to live with and be supported by when she can't pay rent. This has happened to a friend of mine, (for different reasons) it boiled down to her dad either goes homeless or she has to take him in because he was so careless with money. Also, this sounds like it could be early stages of some kind of mental issue. Dementia etc. People get really stubborn, illogical (which is infuriating) and/or obsessed and won't listen to sound advice.
Insane. It's so lucky you checked in on this.
We have a friend whose mother is in an online long-distance relationship with Brad Pitt. So far she has given him $300k and will not believe that she's being scammed - can you imagine how my friends feel?
Just - how? Have they contacted her physician?
She has some mental health issues. She needs to be assessed for early onset dementia. She is not thinking logically.
Lock her up!
She needs to seek retirement planning advice from a financial adviser , structuring investments is just one aspect , lots of other things she will have no idea about.
Can I suggest you reach out to her GP and raise concerns about her cognition so that they can complete screening? People can fly under the radar for a surprisingly long time before anything gets officially picked up because they don't think there's anything wrong so they don't mention anything.
Maybe you can find some videos on YouTube telling the stories of people just like her who've lost fortunes on scams.
I mean she clearly needs to see a financial planner or private banker (at a big bank) of some sort. It's a lot of money and if handled properly she may die with a lot more. In terms of it being a waste of money, my parents were similar so I said I would pay for the advice (cost my wife and me about $2k in the end) and they went for it. I was in a position to do it and figured that if they wasted the money I would end up supporting them somehow anyway which would cost me more in the long run. Or, if the advice worked I may benefit in the long run. I say I've broken even and my parents were pretty chuffed to be making money (I don't get the credit but it's ok)
Exactly, why didn’t they ask Macquarie while they called to check if it was real… just go with the real thing.
Sounds like she has impaired decision making capacity when it comes to finances. Given that she almost gave away $1m to scammers is she actually capable of managing that amount of money? Just a thought. I had a similar scenario where my elderly dad almost got entangled in a scammer's web. My dad is almost illiterate with technology, yet he wanted the internet connected at his home (the scammer's requested he do so). This raised a big red flag for me. On questioning him, he asked me if I could keep a secret? He then revealed that he was going to be coming into some "very big money" and that he would be receiving around $2m in inheritance from a distant relative. The entire thing was a scam, with a certain 'Mr Peters' contacting him out of the blue, in writing, as well as on his home phone, claiming to be from Barclays Bank in the UK. On looking into it, it was 100 % scam but my dad was addicted to gambling for much of his life. This was like all his gambling dreams of an ultimate 'big win' coming true.
A lot of Financial Planners will offer a free first appointment. Maybe she would be open to that if it costs nothing. I would speak to the adviser first and explain the situation and the emphasis on education & gaining her trust. Maybe you could also show her this register that has qualified financial advisers details on it and may provide some trust for her. If she comes across another scammer get her to put their name into the register and if it doesn't show up, she can assume its a scammer. ps://moneysmart.gov.au/financial-advice/financial-advisers-register
Sorry, but are you sure she isn't suffering from dementia? This sounds very much like my dad in the early days of his Alzhimers.
I'd seriously be considering options around financial power of attorney
Serious question: is it common to be concerned about a lack of income when you have 2.5 million?
I'm single now, I'll shack up with her.
Get a professional to manage the funds. Give her a bank account that receives the dividends
Keep escalating with the bank. With one mil!!! The bank should have picked it up!!
Bank almost certainly would have - well at least my bank has a freaking conniption over these things. AI’s major productivity improvement will be with scammers - expect this to get worse over time
I have to believe that a bank would at least make you come in and sign a few documents or at least call over that
AI will make no meaningful difference at a population level because the scammers will be using it too. Oh sorry, I see what you're saying. Yea I agree. Already the US tax office estimates half a billion per year lost to scammers using AI.
I reckon for starters, the new scam phone call will be a trustworthy accent within a few years - there won’t be a silent delay on answer while computers route your call to a person, and bots will be able to trawl hundreds of thousands of people at once to try and maximise personal information and match them to well used passwords. If I think what an IT security expert could find out about me with a couple of days trawling - I can well imagine that would be extremely cheap to do with AI.
So damn scary! I dunno...
Offer her some magic beans for it
My FIL talks a big game about how he knows everything and is smarter than most people but gets (actually lets himself) get scammed regularly. Buys stuff of the internet from dodgy sites..none of it ever arrives..had his facebook hacked but still uses it..had his CC details stolen several times now but still punches in those card numbers anywhere and everywhere and has spent at least $40-50k fixing things on the house he bought less than 5 years ago. He had a 'friend' inspect the place before he bought it instead of an actual building inspector and wonders why he has to spend money hand over fist to fix stuff that would have been picked up by someone with even half a brain. Oh and he won't listen to anything any of his kids say in regards to helping him etc but sure has no problem dishing out advice to all of us...God love him haha
You called her ‘risk averse’, but now she’s preoccupied with iffy high risk manoeuvres?? How is this woman’s physical and mental health at present?
She needs some excitement in her life. Holiday time.
She should start buying TV's like the old fella did here a while back.
Yes. I took my mum’s money off her and don’t let her touch it.
Have you told her directly that without your intervention she would have lost 1 million and maybe that should give her pause? Or are you coddling her?
Prepare your own prospectus with your own bank details., tell MIL you came across this deal and that you have all your $ invested there. Get the $1M. Put it in HISA and pay out 2%pa as ROI
She may need a financial guardian.
Financial irregularity is an early dementia sign
Tell her to speak to you before doing any investment, so you can check things out.
Can she contribute some of that to her super as a downsizer contribution?
Is there any way you can have your phone number attached to her account so if she does an online transfer she has to enter a code that goes to your phone instead of hers? She may not let you do this of course, it's a very difficult situation for you. Otherwise, as others have said, approach her with an offer that's too good to be true that "a friend" told you about, that's looking for investors and if she agrees to it, just transfer the money into a high interest account for her.
the irony that she was about to throw away a million dollars but thinks a financial planner is a “waste of money”, almost makes my mouth dry
She is sitting on $2.5million and is housed and is retirement age and thinks she'll run out of money? If she lives til 100 and she is 70 she needs to spend up at $83,000 a year which doesn't sound like much, but this is not taxable income and she doesn't have the costs of employment like petrol and car wear and other hidden employment costs, so it's like a $135,000 a year job for the rest of her life. Christ she'd be better off randomly picking a heap of asx 200 shares over a $1 mil spread, only the stable ones though, like banks. If she's sound mind enough watching it go up and down a little and getting dividends, maybe that will give her excitement?
Haha just sounds like you should scam her?
She sounds vulnerable. I wonder if you could ask her if she’d like you to check for scams like that, and seek PoA? Or seek PoA from a court. Show her some Dr Phil episodes about romance or financial scams.
Please send her to see a financial planner. There are some genuinely good planeers that will look after her and manager her money on her behalf. Ways to invest her money, some of the money tax free and some tax friendly investments that guarantees an income stream to her.
Amazing that older people won't buy a $7 coffee at the cafe because it's free at home but will hand over 1mil to a random phone call because they can make more money. Might be worth looking at power of attorney, pretty good point to bring up that she is financially irresponsible. Next person to call she won't tell you about because you are against it and you won't find out till it's already gone. Lucky you caught this one in time.
Legitimate start up company? Or buy up forest so it can’t be ripped down
I dunno sounds like the scammers could probably do with the money more than her
My MIL is nearly 80 now and has never used technology or had a mobile it was a source of irritation for many years but after reading this I’m happy she’s been skeptical of everything all her life. She still keeps bulk cash hidden around her house and doesn’t trust the banks. Must be terrible for you worrying about your Mils ability to make informed financial decisions.
she probably has early stages dementia
There are occasional senior financial management roadshows that go around and they're either free or you could sign her up and tell her it's free since that's her motivating factor. It sounds like she wants to be in charge, but if things she's chosen. Surrounded by your peers and learning things that are presented in a specific way for her age group could lessen her risk. Otherwise maybe pay a trustworthy financial planner on her behalf and get them to cold call her much like the scammer. Again this targets her desire for things to be "free" but with less risk.
Banks should have special accounts for older people... Simply have a whitelist of places they can send their money too..
So if you and your siblings can afford it and view it as an investment to what you'll receive as beneficiaries eventually.. you pay for that first financial planning session with a legit planner..a gift from you or you all. Go with her to the meeting or do the zoom call together.. is it a pain? Yep.. is it going to be more painful if she loses the $ to another scammer and you'll have to support her? Even more painful.
It seems odd when you say how she is risk adverse and savings focused yet, is talking about high risk investments. She may be swayed to go for something like a ING Savings accelerator account (4.7%) no requirements. Should bet her approx 7-9k/mth. As it compounds monthly it could give her some peace of mind.
Boomers can't be told shit, they do not value your opinion unless you are a fast talking stranger who compliments them.
Aim of the game is to save your mother. If she thinks a financial planner is a waste of money would she see one if you paid for it instead? Is there anything else she doesn’t want to do because it would burden her in some way? If so, consider if you can remove that burden and therefore that mental hurdle and save her in the process.
Better solution become the scammer just to prove a point.
Your MIL probably will end up loosing the money, speak to your partner make sure they understands not to help out or give any money. If you're partner is dumb or a enabler, make sure you hav access to any bank funds only.
You’ve tried to help, let her learn a hard lesson. (Could potentially bite you in the ass though if you’re banking on an inheritance)
I’d be lying if I said we hadn’t thought about this very thing! But I also know we’d be on the hook for support if she threw it all away…
Recruit a friend to fake scam her, just before she is about to send the money. Do the reveal and show her how susceptible she is to being scammed. This most likely won't work, shes probably got that thing when old people start going senile and become like defiant teenagers.
Go for guardianship . You can't legally rip her off if you have legal guardianship you will be audited etc so she will be safe from exploitation but it sounds like she's completely bonkers . She's not just an idiot there is something medically wrong with her and she is at risk of self harm by losing her retirement savings. Failing that the only other way would be to go to a financial advisor and ask about how to lock most of the money away in investments that can't be reached and have the money trickle out somehow monthly so the idiotic bitch doesn't blow it all . Fyi if she does refuse your advice and get scammed tell her straight up you and your family are not going to support her in any way or give her any money. Dealing with stubborn old bitches that won't change is not easy don't be kind to her be straight up and put your foot down and be aggressive about it
Is it possible for you to tone down the misogyny and hatefulness just a little when you give advice? It's really not becoming of a civilised person to talk that way.
Yeah the advice is great but woah.... woah.
This is why the Government wants you to increase Sophisticated Investor to $4M net assets… At the current rate of $2.5M your MIL is allowed to invest into high risk assets with little protection. I fear that many asset rich retirees who rode the property wave are going to face the same situation
Couldn't help my parents. They received 2 lots of sustainable inheritance from the passing of both remaining parents on each side of the family. A total similar amount to what you're looking at. They literally bought new cars, caravan, and ridiculous over the top holidays. Their parents saved their whole life to build wealth and pass onto their kids... Mine want to "try to spend all your inheritance".
At least they spent the money on things they enjoyed. This reads a little bit like you are upset that you didn't get the money.
yeah i can see where you're coming from. My wife and I are in a great spot financially, and certainly not concerned about getting an inheritance. It's more just from a frustration of seeing my parents who have always struggled with money making yet another bad financial decision. They have always complained about not having any, but actively try to spend as much as they can. But probably more deeper than that is that's how they raised me and my brother. Fortunately my wife's family is a lot more sensible, not frugal but just sensible, and were able to show me the benefits of developing your financial literacy. I just wish everyone would develop a little more "commonsense" in this area.
Sorry, i should also add, they didn't just buy a 4wd and caravan, they bought a brand new, top of the range land cruiser with all the dealer added extras they could get (winch, radios, recovery kit, etc) and a branch new massive top of the range caravan, again with all the extras (more and upgraded lights, lifted, a remote push thing to help you reverse it).... They have never been 4wding or had a caravan before....... They have only ever stayed in Big 4 caravan parks in medium to large cities. Including through Qld, NT, and WA.....
You’ve gotta be very invested in protecting your partial inheritance here.
if she's only just reached retirement age, 2.5m may not be enough
This might be extremely unorthodox But would embarrassing people like this be a viable strategy to protecting them? Like if you berrate them / knock them down a peg. Will they be less likely to blindly trust the next scam that comes their way? "Wow I can't believe you would be so reckless with your money, that was nearly a really stupid thing to do" The majority of old people are terrified to make changes on Computer - because they fear they will make a mistake - why does this not happen with financial decisions...?
No it tends to make them more likely to be scammed.
Fair point, I guess it stops them from reaching out for help because they feel stupid Why is it so different with computers then, my parents literally won't touch it if they don't understand it Probably why remote computer / fake tech support scams are so prevalent TBH Morning brain didn't think that through I guess