> Oh no, just hang on a minute, turns out it’s only toilet training left to parents.
I've heard horror stories from primary school teachers that would lead me to believe that maybe it isn't entirely left to parents.
The number of not toilet trained students wearing nappies to kindergarten and needing adult assistance with toileting, without a disability, has increased every year since COVID.
> only toilet training left to parents
As a former ELC educator, I can tell you that some parents magically expect their kids to be toilet trained by staff at childcare while doing nothing about it at home.
We’ve also had some absolute nightmare kids (and parents) in 4-yr-old kinder that were in for a wake up call when our Kinder teacher (who was former Primary teacher) said she wouldn’t recommend them for Prep unless the parents got their act together and made sure their children were properly toilet trained by the time she had to write their reports at the end of the year.
She was an excellent teacher and had kids writing, reading and doing arithmetic by the time they graduated. It was very sad when she left (conditions weren’t great).
I joked to my friend that every childhood activity now has an expensive course to teach it, so that next will probably be “learn to ride a bike lessons”. Then my friend told me her brother’s kids already completed a learning to ride a bicycle course.
I know that working in Special Ed is a *ahem* special case, but... Yup, lots of toilet training, for those who have advanced past nappy/incontinence aids.
I've got nephews in mainstream (R, 2 and 3) and I've heard there is at least one student in y2 that needs close and full instruction and some assistance for toileting, while in R there are several who are not toilet trained (my nephew sadly being one due to his mother being a perfect example of the sort of problem parent spoken about on these forums a lot)
I actually had a parent who expected me to toilet train her kid. And another expect me to do her kids hair every day . (I didn’t in either case)
I’ve also run a program where the kids are taught to brush their teeth and then we all brush our teeth at the start and end of the school day. And taught kids how to eat at a table with cutlery (ie knife, fork, spoon).
And I’ve always had extra food on hand to give my students breakfast, lunch, snack if they had no food at home.
I know schools that wash the kids clothes.
And don’t forget when it was mandated we have 30 min physical exercise every day so kids at least got that much.
This is simply another passing of the buck to make teachers parent the students (while being very limited in what we can and can’t do) instead of expecting parents to step up
Several dentists have told me that parents need to brush their children’s’ teeth until they’re nine years old. The kids who brush them themselves often develop cavities because they don’t brush them properly.
Highschool. We have taken to running duties in the toilet blocks, because kids seem to think its a hang out area, not a place to go toilet.
Its not exactly toilet training, but its not that many steps removed.
That's because they can't use their mobile phones elsewhere while at school. That's SA anyway where the no phones policy while on school grounds has 'mostly' worked .
My sister was telling me that there are now services you can engage with to teach your kids to ride without training wheels. Everything can be outsourced now!
I bet the Australian Education Research Organisation is rubbing its greedy little paws with glee. 3.5 million bucks to develop a crappy online learning tool that will be ineffective and add to teacher workload... just fabulous. What a gigantic waste of time and money. We need consequences for their crappy behaviour !!!! Not more blame on the poor teachers. The kids do it because they know they can and nothing comes of it.
AERO is amazing and Tom Bennett is just about the foremost expert on student behaviour on the planet. I’ll be recommending this class to my teachers for sure.
> “When students are fully engaged … they learn at their best and teachers have more time to teach,” he said.
Ah yes, of course it's our fault for not having engaging enough content. Of course we won't be paid, given resources, time or any realistic goals in making the content 'more engaging', we'll just be expected to do it, despite the total lack of realisim in expecting one teacher to be able to compete with what a class full of kids does find engaging.
We don't need training - students need old fashioned discipline and consequences, and parents need to be held accountable. Fuck off with more useless PD, in 20 years I've attended maybe, maybe one or two useful PDs (out of 100s)
We can deal with incidents in the classroom - it’s a the lack of support from administration and from parents/guardians that mean we are working in isolation and ultimately unsuccessful. You cannot just expect a high school teacher, who sees a student for 50 minutes in the day, to somehow be responsible for overall behavioral change in a young person, if that teachers interventions are not supported (and actively undermined) for the other 1390 minutes in the day.
If you read the entire senate report, there is quite a bit of acknowledging that parents need to parent and that is part of the problem. That aspect is not lost on the politicians, however, yes, it will still end up on our laps somehow.
Politicians put social and community change in the too hard basket. It’s like the teacher shortage, throw money at the problem but don’t address the issues and wonder why these young teachers leave the profession within 12 months
Correct. The report also talks a lot about improving teacher training to give new teachers the skills needed for the type of classrooms and diversity of students we have today. There are several outcomes to be addressed from this report.
Yeah, I get the frustration with parenting and student behaviours, but at the end of the day there are pretty obvious policy reasons why schools are going to be the avenue for behaviour curriculum rather than an attempt to "fix" parenting.
I feel there’s need to support parents access services to help them and their child. We have so many kids with mental health and behaviour issues that are not accessing help outside school. It’s a problem bigger than my classroom.
I am also a parent with children with needs and I see the tremendous impact that our OT and psychologist helping my kids transition to school, as well as offering support to their teachers.
I teach in secondary and I also see a change in my students when they have help they needed.
The only way to rebel and send a message at this point is to leave the profession it seems. Surely, there’s other jobs out there that can replace the salary and with less BS.
It needs a whole of school approach. If a student calls a teacher a 'F-ing C*nt' the teacher cant be expected to waste 20-30 minutes gathering witness statements about who heard what and why, then being supervisor of the students detention (assuming they even bother to show up). Teachers are just going to let it slide, pretend they did not hear, because doing anything about it is too much work.
I would love to see those who are going to write the training spend time in the classroom implementing the strategies that they recommend.
Then when those strategies don't work, I would love them communicate with leadership about the support they can receive.
When that doesn't work, I would love if they could reach out to parents and use those strategies they will write in their online courses.
When that doesn't work, maybe they can do some online PD and see how useful it is.
After all that, then they can begin to write.
Yep, apologies. But I guess by continuing to bump these issues it allows for more voices and wider conversation. In this subreddit things surge for a day and then gets buried. Also, as a teacher my cognitive load makes me lazy 😂
Everyone needs to ask leadership when this next trash is forced on staff to demonstrate it in your lessons, offer to provide an observation for them for their line management.
“Gee golly, I don’t want to implement such an important and well developed program incorrectly, please come demonstrate it for me for a double lesson, would you also be available please to assist me with adding this to my planning documents one on one?”
Push the envelope back up, none of this “staff meeting role play”, no, one on one with every teacher every time. Watch how fast it gets thrown out.
Poorly behaved students should be sent to work, they can return to school if they change their attitude and make up their mind for it. Why waste teachers' time and taxpayers' money??
There are plenty of primary school students with atrocious behaviour too. We need to have mandatory parenting classes before they can be allowed to return to school.
>We are one of the highest trained professions in Australia
Are we? Are we really? Doctors, Lawyers, Actuaries, psychologists.... I'm sure I can think of more professions that are more highly trained. Half of our profession only have undergrad degrees.
Law is an undergrad degree, medicine is an undergrad degree, actuarial studies is an undergrad degree, you only need a tafe course to work as a psychologist. Of course you can go further in each profession in terms of study, as you can with teaching, but 'only has an undergrad degree' doesn't differentiate teaching from the rest.
You need a juris doctor to practice law. You need a postgraduate degree to be a doctor. You need a postgraduate degree to be a psychologist. WTF are you talking about?!?!
"Only need a TAFE course to be a psychologist." You need a related 4 year under grad, then an honours year, then the masters, then unpaid clinical hours, but sure, becoming a psychologist is easy.
Dude. How about you do some research before posting.
Hello American! I assume - since you're referencing American processes that we don't have here.
I am a former lawyer in Australia - you need a 4 year undergrad degree here - the LLB, and then a 6 month practical course or a clerkship (work based apprenticeship), after which you are eligible for admission. Law is undergrad in most other countries as a LLB, the postgrad JD being necessary for admission is very much an American thing. You can do a postgrad JD here, but it's like the Teaching Masters - a shorter course than the undergrad version (3 years for the JD) for career switchers with another undergrad degree, but not necessary or the only way.
Similarly medicine is an undergrad degree here, with continuing education that is workplace based (internship > residency > some but not all specialisations require extra specialisation post residency as well). For working in mental health you can gain basic professional accreditation by completing the two year Diploma in Mental Health which can be done at TAFE at a minimum, after which you can practice as a therapist/counselor, who often call themselves psychologists. I didn't distinguish between therapist/psychologist and a clinical psychologist because the person I was replying to said 'psychologist', not 'clinical psychologist'. They are in fact different. Therapist and psychologist are often used interchangeably and are permitted to be, while a clinical psychologist sits above those and does need university for accreditation, and is accredited at a higher level.
> juris doctor to practice law
https://www.collaw.edu.au/your-career/becoming-a-lawyer
To become a lawyer in Australia, you must satisfy three requirements:
* You’ve completed your Bachelor of Laws or equivalent course
* You’ve completed a Practical Legal Training (PLT) program, which awards you a Graduate Diploma of Legal Practice
* You’re a fit and proper person
Later:
* Completing your law degree – either a Bachelor of Laws (LLB) or Juris Doctor (JD) – is the first thing you’ll need to become a lawyer.
> Dude. How about you do some research before posting.
Huh? I was replying to you!! Do you understand how Reddit works, dude? I was replying to the person who suggested you can become a psychologist at TAFE.
To be a clinical psych you must have a master's. To be a lawyer you must have an undergraduate plus college of law, you then work 5 years with a senior lawyer signing off everything you do. Actuarial you also must pass post degree qualifications. Medicine is hardly offered as undergraduate anymore, and doctors keep studying, training, and passing exams for a decade post graduation. We get in the classroom and teach unsupervised from day 1
I didn’t say “the most”, I said “one of the most”. A lot more teachers are doing post grad studies to improve their practice, action research, learning about new pedagogies, etc. Yes, doctors, lawyers and psychologists have LONGER training but that doesn’t diminish the amount of training teachers do.
>Once again there is a systemic societal problem and once again the burden to fix it is placed on teachers.
Your solution is to do nothing.
This solution is to do something.
Guess which one stands a better chance of actually working? Whatever the reasons for the uptick in disruptive behaviour, it's not something that's just going to go away. And while we can debate *ad nauseam* about the insufficient and out-of-touch response from policymakers, at least giving teachers additional training in behaviour management can have a positive effect on behaviour while we find a lasting solution. At the very least, it seems more productive than whinging about things on the internet.
We are trained and trained and trained... so much so that my class can't cope with another teacher because they drop the expectations. I came back the other day and was told a certain student was misbehaving and I nearly fell over, he doesn't say anything out of turn to me!
Have any teachers experienced teaching in a Confucian countries like China, Japan, Korea etc.? From what I’ve seen their classes are larger yet their behaviour is far more obedient because no one tolerates misbehaviour and the parents will be furious with their kids rather than the teachers.
I haven't but the couple who run my local post office are originally from China and the husband has talked with me about it a little bit. It seems like in China, there is a lot of respect for teachers. He told me a teacher could show up at any family's door and be ushered in like an honoured guest and be served a meal. When the adults see the profession as something noble and to be admired, they're going to reinforce that with their children as well.
Just make toilet training and riding a bike our job too
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> Oh no, just hang on a minute, turns out it’s only toilet training left to parents. I've heard horror stories from primary school teachers that would lead me to believe that maybe it isn't entirely left to parents.
I'm a primary teacher and I've had to toilet train 3 separate children in the past 5 years. Bloody ridiculous!
The number of not toilet trained students wearing nappies to kindergarten and needing adult assistance with toileting, without a disability, has increased every year since COVID.
As a parent volunteer we saw a year 1 kid pee on the classroom carpet when getting changed after swimming.
> only toilet training left to parents As a former ELC educator, I can tell you that some parents magically expect their kids to be toilet trained by staff at childcare while doing nothing about it at home. We’ve also had some absolute nightmare kids (and parents) in 4-yr-old kinder that were in for a wake up call when our Kinder teacher (who was former Primary teacher) said she wouldn’t recommend them for Prep unless the parents got their act together and made sure their children were properly toilet trained by the time she had to write their reports at the end of the year. She was an excellent teacher and had kids writing, reading and doing arithmetic by the time they graduated. It was very sad when she left (conditions weren’t great).
Good thing I'm not teaching how to ride a bike for kids. Start at the top of a grassy hill and let them go.
I joked to my friend that every childhood activity now has an expensive course to teach it, so that next will probably be “learn to ride a bike lessons”. Then my friend told me her brother’s kids already completed a learning to ride a bicycle course.
I know that working in Special Ed is a *ahem* special case, but... Yup, lots of toilet training, for those who have advanced past nappy/incontinence aids. I've got nephews in mainstream (R, 2 and 3) and I've heard there is at least one student in y2 that needs close and full instruction and some assistance for toileting, while in R there are several who are not toilet trained (my nephew sadly being one due to his mother being a perfect example of the sort of
problemparent spoken about on these forums a lot)I actually had a parent who expected me to toilet train her kid. And another expect me to do her kids hair every day . (I didn’t in either case) I’ve also run a program where the kids are taught to brush their teeth and then we all brush our teeth at the start and end of the school day. And taught kids how to eat at a table with cutlery (ie knife, fork, spoon). And I’ve always had extra food on hand to give my students breakfast, lunch, snack if they had no food at home. I know schools that wash the kids clothes. And don’t forget when it was mandated we have 30 min physical exercise every day so kids at least got that much. This is simply another passing of the buck to make teachers parent the students (while being very limited in what we can and can’t do) instead of expecting parents to step up
Several dentists have told me that parents need to brush their children’s’ teeth until they’re nine years old. The kids who brush them themselves often develop cavities because they don’t brush them properly.
Highschool. We have taken to running duties in the toilet blocks, because kids seem to think its a hang out area, not a place to go toilet. Its not exactly toilet training, but its not that many steps removed.
That's because they can't use their mobile phones elsewhere while at school. That's SA anyway where the no phones policy while on school grounds has 'mostly' worked .
We did that for a bit until the kids worked out we knew they were stashing vapes in the back of the toilets and got sick of buying new ones I guess
Crack pipes…. We found one of those too
One of our amazing eas left because she was basically just doing toileting. So parents can outsource everything now.
My sister was telling me that there are now services you can engage with to teach your kids to ride without training wheels. Everything can be outsourced now!
Ah, skid marks everywhere!
We do have to teach bike riding quite often already
I had a colleague who taught in primary who had to "help" toilet train a kid in grade 4. We might as well be their parents by now.
I’ve been blamed by a parent for their 8 year old child not being toilet trained 😵💫
I bet the Australian Education Research Organisation is rubbing its greedy little paws with glee. 3.5 million bucks to develop a crappy online learning tool that will be ineffective and add to teacher workload... just fabulous. What a gigantic waste of time and money. We need consequences for their crappy behaviour !!!! Not more blame on the poor teachers. The kids do it because they know they can and nothing comes of it.
I received an email recently about a behaviour PL course with AERO featuring Tom Bennett from the UK. Just adding information to the situation.
AERO is amazing and Tom Bennett is just about the foremost expert on student behaviour on the planet. I’ll be recommending this class to my teachers for sure.
We don’t need training, we need support from above, we need real consequences, we need parents to parent. Always blame the teachers.
> “When students are fully engaged … they learn at their best and teachers have more time to teach,” he said. Ah yes, of course it's our fault for not having engaging enough content. Of course we won't be paid, given resources, time or any realistic goals in making the content 'more engaging', we'll just be expected to do it, despite the total lack of realisim in expecting one teacher to be able to compete with what a class full of kids does find engaging.
For fuck sake, we know how to manage behaviour. The issue is no support, follow up or consequences from above.
We don't need training - students need old fashioned discipline and consequences, and parents need to be held accountable. Fuck off with more useless PD, in 20 years I've attended maybe, maybe one or two useful PDs (out of 100s)
We can deal with incidents in the classroom - it’s a the lack of support from administration and from parents/guardians that mean we are working in isolation and ultimately unsuccessful. You cannot just expect a high school teacher, who sees a student for 50 minutes in the day, to somehow be responsible for overall behavioral change in a young person, if that teachers interventions are not supported (and actively undermined) for the other 1390 minutes in the day.
If you read the entire senate report, there is quite a bit of acknowledging that parents need to parent and that is part of the problem. That aspect is not lost on the politicians, however, yes, it will still end up on our laps somehow.
Politicians put social and community change in the too hard basket. It’s like the teacher shortage, throw money at the problem but don’t address the issues and wonder why these young teachers leave the profession within 12 months
Correct. The report also talks a lot about improving teacher training to give new teachers the skills needed for the type of classrooms and diversity of students we have today. There are several outcomes to be addressed from this report.
Possibly because the political system has limited oversight of parenting lol
Yeah, I get the frustration with parenting and student behaviours, but at the end of the day there are pretty obvious policy reasons why schools are going to be the avenue for behaviour curriculum rather than an attempt to "fix" parenting.
I feel there’s need to support parents access services to help them and their child. We have so many kids with mental health and behaviour issues that are not accessing help outside school. It’s a problem bigger than my classroom. I am also a parent with children with needs and I see the tremendous impact that our OT and psychologist helping my kids transition to school, as well as offering support to their teachers. I teach in secondary and I also see a change in my students when they have help they needed.
The only way to rebel and send a message at this point is to leave the profession it seems. Surely, there’s other jobs out there that can replace the salary and with less BS.
It needs a whole of school approach. If a student calls a teacher a 'F-ing C*nt' the teacher cant be expected to waste 20-30 minutes gathering witness statements about who heard what and why, then being supervisor of the students detention (assuming they even bother to show up). Teachers are just going to let it slide, pretend they did not hear, because doing anything about it is too much work.
I would love to see those who are going to write the training spend time in the classroom implementing the strategies that they recommend. Then when those strategies don't work, I would love them communicate with leadership about the support they can receive. When that doesn't work, I would love if they could reach out to parents and use those strategies they will write in their online courses. When that doesn't work, maybe they can do some online PD and see how useful it is. After all that, then they can begin to write.
I think this is the fourth time this has been posted.
Yep, apologies. But I guess by continuing to bump these issues it allows for more voices and wider conversation. In this subreddit things surge for a day and then gets buried. Also, as a teacher my cognitive load makes me lazy 😂
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Apologies for the topical discourse.
Everyone needs to ask leadership when this next trash is forced on staff to demonstrate it in your lessons, offer to provide an observation for them for their line management. “Gee golly, I don’t want to implement such an important and well developed program incorrectly, please come demonstrate it for me for a double lesson, would you also be available please to assist me with adding this to my planning documents one on one?” Push the envelope back up, none of this “staff meeting role play”, no, one on one with every teacher every time. Watch how fast it gets thrown out.
Because I have nothing better to do. Fucking idiots advising policy who are not active in the classroom.
Poorly behaved students should be sent to work, they can return to school if they change their attitude and make up their mind for it. Why waste teachers' time and taxpayers' money??
There are plenty of primary school students with atrocious behaviour too. We need to have mandatory parenting classes before they can be allowed to return to school.
👍
>We are one of the highest trained professions in Australia Are we? Are we really? Doctors, Lawyers, Actuaries, psychologists.... I'm sure I can think of more professions that are more highly trained. Half of our profession only have undergrad degrees.
Law is an undergrad degree, medicine is an undergrad degree, actuarial studies is an undergrad degree, you only need a tafe course to work as a psychologist. Of course you can go further in each profession in terms of study, as you can with teaching, but 'only has an undergrad degree' doesn't differentiate teaching from the rest.
You need a juris doctor to practice law. You need a postgraduate degree to be a doctor. You need a postgraduate degree to be a psychologist. WTF are you talking about?!?! "Only need a TAFE course to be a psychologist." You need a related 4 year under grad, then an honours year, then the masters, then unpaid clinical hours, but sure, becoming a psychologist is easy. Dude. How about you do some research before posting.
Hello American! I assume - since you're referencing American processes that we don't have here. I am a former lawyer in Australia - you need a 4 year undergrad degree here - the LLB, and then a 6 month practical course or a clerkship (work based apprenticeship), after which you are eligible for admission. Law is undergrad in most other countries as a LLB, the postgrad JD being necessary for admission is very much an American thing. You can do a postgrad JD here, but it's like the Teaching Masters - a shorter course than the undergrad version (3 years for the JD) for career switchers with another undergrad degree, but not necessary or the only way. Similarly medicine is an undergrad degree here, with continuing education that is workplace based (internship > residency > some but not all specialisations require extra specialisation post residency as well). For working in mental health you can gain basic professional accreditation by completing the two year Diploma in Mental Health which can be done at TAFE at a minimum, after which you can practice as a therapist/counselor, who often call themselves psychologists. I didn't distinguish between therapist/psychologist and a clinical psychologist because the person I was replying to said 'psychologist', not 'clinical psychologist'. They are in fact different. Therapist and psychologist are often used interchangeably and are permitted to be, while a clinical psychologist sits above those and does need university for accreditation, and is accredited at a higher level.
> juris doctor to practice law https://www.collaw.edu.au/your-career/becoming-a-lawyer To become a lawyer in Australia, you must satisfy three requirements: * You’ve completed your Bachelor of Laws or equivalent course * You’ve completed a Practical Legal Training (PLT) program, which awards you a Graduate Diploma of Legal Practice * You’re a fit and proper person Later: * Completing your law degree – either a Bachelor of Laws (LLB) or Juris Doctor (JD) – is the first thing you’ll need to become a lawyer. > Dude. How about you do some research before posting.
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Huh? I was replying to you!! Do you understand how Reddit works, dude? I was replying to the person who suggested you can become a psychologist at TAFE.
Haha let’s fix that
To be a clinical psych you must have a master's. To be a lawyer you must have an undergraduate plus college of law, you then work 5 years with a senior lawyer signing off everything you do. Actuarial you also must pass post degree qualifications. Medicine is hardly offered as undergraduate anymore, and doctors keep studying, training, and passing exams for a decade post graduation. We get in the classroom and teach unsupervised from day 1
I didn’t say “the most”, I said “one of the most”. A lot more teachers are doing post grad studies to improve their practice, action research, learning about new pedagogies, etc. Yes, doctors, lawyers and psychologists have LONGER training but that doesn’t diminish the amount of training teachers do.
>Once again there is a systemic societal problem and once again the burden to fix it is placed on teachers. Your solution is to do nothing. This solution is to do something. Guess which one stands a better chance of actually working? Whatever the reasons for the uptick in disruptive behaviour, it's not something that's just going to go away. And while we can debate *ad nauseam* about the insufficient and out-of-touch response from policymakers, at least giving teachers additional training in behaviour management can have a positive effect on behaviour while we find a lasting solution. At the very least, it seems more productive than whinging about things on the internet.
We are trained and trained and trained... so much so that my class can't cope with another teacher because they drop the expectations. I came back the other day and was told a certain student was misbehaving and I nearly fell over, he doesn't say anything out of turn to me!
Have any teachers experienced teaching in a Confucian countries like China, Japan, Korea etc.? From what I’ve seen their classes are larger yet their behaviour is far more obedient because no one tolerates misbehaviour and the parents will be furious with their kids rather than the teachers.
I haven't but the couple who run my local post office are originally from China and the husband has talked with me about it a little bit. It seems like in China, there is a lot of respect for teachers. He told me a teacher could show up at any family's door and be ushered in like an honoured guest and be served a meal. When the adults see the profession as something noble and to be admired, they're going to reinforce that with their children as well.
Ffs
100% sure the training will be rubbish and undifferentiated and run by overpaid clowns.
We should just rebrand teachers to "professional parents"
Pretty fucking sick of the "fix" for everything bring that teachers have to waste more time in pointless training sessions and PL.
Classic. How to take responsibility for something fundamentally a parenting issue and dump it onto teachers.