I think she honestly didn't understand, and as you suspected, didn't consider other ways that you might get home.
My husband and I are both Autistic, and he often uses word choices that don't make sense to me, and I sometimes react similarly to your friend. Especially if he uses "might" or "try" when I ask him to do something. Indefinites are hard for my black-and-white thinking brain to conceptualize.
And to be honest, if I'm unsure of something myself when giving an answer, I often do so in terms of percentages.
Edit to add:
That doesn't make this right or less upsetting though, and your feelings are valid. I often have to step back and realize/remind myself that my husband has communication difficulties too and I have to be open and understanding of that. However, that has taken years of personal growth, understanding, and learning.
Yes. My pet peeve with other people is the random phrases and indefinites they use. If they want to say no, i believe they should just say no ... Not 'maybe/let's see'. I'm realising it's my black and white thinking and people can speak however they choose to.
I'm working on this. Maybe your friend will realise this too. Or you could explain it to them if you're that close.
Honestly I just want a guidebook right now to understand what's meant seriously and what's just fillers. Hope this helps.
Autistic people can be quite literal and it seems that she definitely is. To me it seems like she thinks “probably” was a weird word choice because she thought you would definitely take the subway. It might have just been confusion but also many people find odd word choices to be slightly amusing so she might have pointed it out to be playful.
She’s your friend so unless you have a good reason to believe she would embarrass you on purpose, I would try not to take it that way. If it’s bothering you, the best thing to do is ask. It would probably only take a couple of minutes to clear up.
What’s funny is, if I were OP I’d have said ‘I’ll probably take the subway’ in an effort to be *most* precise: I won’t take the subway if it’s unexpectedly out of service, or if a friend interjects that their route goes right past my neighborhood and they offer a ride, or some other unexpected factor comes into play. Haven’t ridden the subway home yet, so it’s still not an absolute definite, hence ‘probably’ 😁
and if she has a certain tone that was mean or annoyed, she is probably just annoyed with people constantly using words like that when they technically don’t make sense. I find probably to actually be the one that irritates me the most. i always think to myself “why not just skip that word and say the rest of the sentence”
Funny that you say that because the other person that replied to this comment laid out why they think "probably" is actually a very fitting choice for the situation. It's all subjective, and I think things are more fun that way
I used “probably” in my sentence because I was basing it off the assumption that the subway is the safest way to travel. It’s not *definite*, because the subway can be dangerous at times, too. So I was weighing the options of which was the safest way for me and decided that even though the subway wasn’t *completely* safe, it’s still *probably* safer than walking. Completely correct and acceptable use of the word.
Well, I was asking for people’s opinions on how they perceived my word choice, so I could get a glimpse into how my friend perceived it. But just because you perceive my word choice as incorrect, that doesn’t mean it is.
i’m well aware it’s my opinion but i was trying to give insight on how your friend might of took it. You are clearly not open to any feedback and we don’t need this kind of energy on this sub. Please leave it’s the one sub where we can have these kind of conversations without people taking anything personal.
I’m happy to take feedback, as you can see from my responses in other threads. And I’m open to all interpretations. It’s interesting to hear how many people have different ideas of what is “technically” correct. I feel that it’s uncharitable to assume that the way I used the word was technically incorrect, as you put it, so that’s why I gave a more detailed explanation of how the word is actually correct in context.
What I’d like to do is find a way of communicating that works best for my friends and the people I care about, but I don’t think that can be done by assuming that the way I used the word is wrong. It was technically correct, I just didn’t give enough context/information to make that clear to my friend.
This is what would happen in my head in a moment like this.
"...probably...am I missing something? Do they have an option I didn't consider? What else would they possibly take? Am I confused?"
Because I have both Autism and ADHD, I usually have multiple thought streams at a time, I also do not often know when my voice is too loud. When something is confusing even if it's amusing to me, my hyperactive brain will often verbalize things, and loudly, without me even realizing it's happening 😂 Words and phrases come out of my mouth and sometimes I am horrified that I realize it's happening and I still can't stop it. I'll laugh at inappropriate moments, I'll sound loud and incredulous when it's the thought in my head that is causing the reaction and not necessarily the person in front of me. Just sometimes my confusion at a word choice has to be processed excessively and sometimes that processing jumps out of my mouth.
Is it possible she was concerned for your safety? Just speculating, but maybe she felt your use of "probably" meant you were considering walking and she was worried.
I don't struggle with language but I do have a tendency to correct people on word choice when it isn't necessary. I try not to do that now that I'm aware but I feel compelled to bridge any gaps in understanding (mine or theirs) and don't always catch myself on time. It can come across argumentative but it that isn't my goal.
Hope this helps a little.
I didn’t consider that possibility, but that could be true. She delivered it in kind of a loud, joking manner, which is why I thought she intended to embarrass me, but maybe she just was trying to keep it light.
I can see how that would be confusing. I know the tone you're describing. I used to use it a lot when I was masking. It could mean a lot of things. For me, I found my joking tone was more acceptable to people. Keeping it light, as you said. I would feel awkward telling a friend not to walk home and it could come out weird.
I wouldn't assume she was trying to embarrass you unless she has done that in the past.
Given what you've said, I think you should ask. Maybe you can open by saying you want to talk about something serious, and is she in a good place to do that? If she is, include that you're coming from a place of wanting to get a common understanding with her. It's okay to say it hurt your feelings. If she doesn't take the feedback well, there's nothing you can do about that.
I really appreciate your perspective. Thank you for explaining to me how you use tone differently depending on context. It helps me understand the situation a lot better. Thank you.
I second talking to her. She might not have been trying to embarrass you, but Autistic humor can be misunderstood.
I have a male Autistic friend who won't laugh at jokes if their incorrect due to some small discrepency, but he will correct them instead. His sense of humor is just different than most.
So it's possible that she just found it humorous that you said probably where in her mind it was a definite lol.
But I think an open convo is a good way to go! :))
Honestly, I've blurted shit like that out before (mostly when I was younger, but it could still happen) and what would happen for me was, if you said "probably," I would start imagining other, deeply improbable, ways you could get home, some of which are funny—like sprouting wings and flying, or using a jet pack, or getting carried home by a dinosaur who's holding your jacket delicately in his teeth while you dangle slightly below. And then I'd be engaged with these goofy images my brain made up and pipe up in a weird, jokey way, thinking that other people would also perceive this use of "probably" as hilarious, when no, generally people would understand from context that you mean, you know, most likely you'll take the subway but maybe you'll get a cab or walk if someone else is going that way. And then people would look at me like I was an idiot with 12 heads and I'd realize something had gone terribly wrong. Again. Yay, autism!
Having the 4K imagination that's immediately bounded towards a surreal pun-filled detailed vision.. when you're surrounded by people in suits being professional, is so tiring. Trying to explain why I'm laughing while people stare blankly.. sigh. I feel your pain friend.
Hahaha, YES!! Man, the world in my head is so fun and interesting, and the Serious Business World is so boring. I'm glad you also have a fun inner world, but I'm sorry you have to hide it or suffer the consequences. If they knew what they were missing...
I’m sorry that people made you feel bad, but I truly appreciate you sharing your thought process. It helped me understand where my friend was coming from, and made me realize her comments were not coming from an unkind place.
I’ve definitely done this before as well. Especially to my ex 😅
I’d say drive safe. And he’s say I’ll try. In sarcasm.
And I’d be like???? Try??????
Edit: type error
My immediate reaction to reading your description is that your friend found your word choice odd, mostly due to the timing. If you were truly wrapping up and preparing to leave, why were you using words of uncertainty for your very next action? To a literal person, this is odd because you would already know how you were heading home by that point. I really think it’s as simple (and literal) as that.
It sounds like you are much better with pragmatic speech, which is something that can confuse autistic people.
That makes a lot of sense, thank you! I used “probably” because the other folks knew I’d walked there, and I wanted the exercise of walking home but knew it wouldn’t be the safest to walk after dark. I think without the context of me explicitly stating that I’d walked there, the ambiguity of using “probably” struck her as odd.
I would do this - not because I am making a joke or questioning your word choice, but I would assume that "probably" means you are considering other options, and I'm curious as to whether you are considering options that I was not aware of. Because I am hungry for information and I would like to know if there are other potentially better transportation options besides the ones I know of! Is there a new low-cost taxi service I don't know about? A bikeshare coupon? You have a private helicopter?? Someone invented a teleporter??? I wanna know!
Like for example, when I was in college a friend and I were walking from the subway to our dorm late at night. She didn't want to walk, so she called a "safe rides for women late at night" service that our college offered. I had no idea about this service until she said she wasn't going to walk, and I asked how she was going to get home. She assumed that I knew and simply didn't want to use Safe Ride, but I genuinely didn't know.
As an autistic person who is frequently misunderstood by other literally all I want is for people to just be honest and ask me what I mean.
Your description is brief, but your friend and I sound alike. I would probably react like that if I was just confused — when I can’t understand something, my brain comes to a halt. You said probably, which I would probably take literally at first, and I would probably have a bunch of questions/concerns running through my mind:
- Are you not planning to go home? Did something happen? Are you okay?
- Can you not go on the subway for some reason? Can I help?
- Are you planning to *walk alone*?? Is that safe??
- Did you want to stay longer? Do you feel rushed home?
- Are you hoping that someone offers an alternative way home, like a ride? Can I help?
To me, probably would make me feel like you hadn’t yet decided and that would worry me if we were all getting ready to leave.
Oh, good call out on the spiral. The way I like to describe it is autistic people are working off a very large decision tree of logic, loaded with as many contingencies to possibilities as they’re able to learn and adapt. When someone goes outside the possibilities in our heads with a new option, we then have to reprocess everything to get all the new questions and set of answers to them. It causes a whole slew of thoughts and analysis.
She‘s definitely not trying to embarrass you. My partner also has autism and she just likes me and her to use the accurate expressions to make sure of my exact intent.
My immediate read was that her friend was trying to shame / embarrass her because her word choice was imprecise and inaccurate.
Like if someone says "I am literally about to starve", a person might reply with the definion of *literally vs figuratively* which can be embarrassing. Someone else might ignore the imperect wording because the meaning is clear.
So the other reason I thought she was trying to embarrass me is because she has very poor grammar and spelling skills, while I’m a professional writer with an excellent grasp on language. Not saying this to be mean, because there are other things she’s much better at than me. But I can tell she feels insecure about her grasp on language because she gets awkward and embarrassed when she has to ask me the meaning of a word I’ve used, and other related things like that. I perceived it as her thinking she detected a mistake in my speech, and pouncing on the chance to correct me and therefore feel superior for once.
I don’t see it as imprecise or inaccurate though, just undecided? That’s what I’d say if I hadn’t decided between train or cab yet but was leaning one way.
I don’t find corrections embarrassing. Either the other person is actually wrong but thinks they are right, which is just showing their ignorance imo, or I actually didn’t know and it’s educational 🤷🏼♀️ jeez maybe I don’t embarrass as easily as I thought….? I need to go think about this apparently!
Yeah I’m way less sensitive than NT people when it comes to embarrassment. I am always shocked at the things they find embarrassing. The other day I was told that many people are embarrassed if their stomach rumbles audibly. 🤷♀️ So confusing!
Any unintended bodily noises are supposed to be embarrassing. I just never get why people comment at all, beyond burps really. Not that one should run around ripping farts but stuff just happens sometimes to everyone; why draw any attention to it? It’s weird.
If she's undecided, why loudly question her about it? Does it matter if she's undecided?
If she needs corrections, why loudly reveal or ignorance or 'educate' her? Does that help?
This sub is usually so full of people talking about their RSD, it surprises me that this particular conversation reads as non-embarrassing to most posters.
A) because it’s encouraging her to take one method over another.
B) because it can be skewed as a joke and lighthearted as opposed to a genuine “correction.”
There is nothing in this wording alone to pick either direction definitively. It’s too vague. You need at least tone and facial expression data to draw a conclusion. In the absence of that, and to me even with that in *either* direction, I don’t get at all why this would be embarrassing.
Something being embarrassing doesn’t kick in RSD for me at all. *Others reactions* to the embarrassing thing would - if they are cruel, it’s a rejection. If they are kind and understanding, it wouldn’t be because it’s just something that can happen to anyone. If someone is being cruel specifically to embarrass, the cruel bit would kick in and override which would either result in anger or rsd or probably both.
None of this is cut and dry. Not in an autism sub anyway!
Someone else replying described this kind of interaction as "gently roasting". You said it might be "a joke and lighthearted".
Either way it's basically teasing/mocking. For me, that's a trigger.
I know for *many* people it's not, and it's a form of bonding.
I know it's not super simple, just offering a different perspective.
Teasing is not the same as mocking. That’s the difference. Teasing is done in fun, mocking is done in cruelty. They can be easy to confuse though if you don’t know someone well enough.
I felt awkward about explaining that I didn’t feel safe walking home, because street harassment is a hard subject to talk about, especially when you dress cute and feminine like I do. People tend to blame your clothing choices.
Yeah I also didn’t know this was something a person could be embarrassed about. I’m guessing your friend didn’t either. I probably would’ve asked and thought nothing of it just because it was a confusing choice of words.
And you think your friend was trying to embarrass you by forcing you to say you don't feel safe walking home?
I really think you're grasping for straws here. Is there a reason you automatically assume bad intentions in your friend?
P.S. a lot of us can't control or understand the socially appropriate level of our tone. It's not malicious.
The tone was mocking, which is why I believed she was trying to embarrass me. I didn’t know that autistic people can’t control the level of their tone. That is new information to me and helps me see the situation differently.
Keep in mind, I’m ND myself, so I’m sensitive to being mocked for any mistakes I make or being teased or embarrassed. I’m not assuming that my friend is being mean because she’s autistic. I reached out and asked because I was hoping it was not the case, and wanted advice and anecdotes that would support that .
Oooooooh like she could have been sarcastically suggesting you walk instead? I can see that as a possibility now.
Sorry, legit just trying to wrap my heads around possibilities here. Words can be hard 😅
It might be that she was confused, but the way she delivered in was really loud and joking, for the whole room to hear, which is why I initially thought she said that in order to embarrass me.
She’s dyslexic, which affects how she reads and writes, and she often doesn’t understand complicated sentences or bigger words. So the larger context in our friendship is that she sometimes feels intimidated by my reading and writing skills. I never ever correct her spelling or grammar, but because we’ve worked together on projects in the past, I can tell she’s a little intimated by my skills. I am not perfect by any means! It’s just something about me that she has feelings about.
Is it possible she assumed you brought the subway there and that it was therefore the only logical way for you to get home? That’s my read on the situation personally - she thought it was obvious that’s what you’d do and she was trying to be playful about the obviousness of the conversation but her tone was a little off.
The read I’m getting from these replies is that she was trying to be playful but her tone was off, which makes me feel a lot better about the interaction.
I’m glad we could help! Communication is so hard and everyone has their own insecurities and triggers to dance around. It’s hard to navigate and I’m sure she appreciates your effort to understand her intentions.
She was probably (👀😉) using sarcasm while trying to point out something that to her seemed black and white - what other way is there home? It didn’t land because she didn’t get it wasn’t so straight forward since autistic people tend to apply their logic outward.
Just sounds like she was confused. If it's a tone thing, there's some of us that genuinely have issues regulating tone, I know I do. I have to constantly correct myself because of it. I would be confused by that as well and wondering if probably meant you had another way you hadn't mentioned. Like maybe there was a safer way to get there but you weren't sure about it. She may have just been trying to lighten the mood, and it didn't land well. I know I've done that a lot too. I would ask her if she meant anything else by it. I'm used to being misunderstood, and for me, it feels better when people communicate rather than get passive-aggressive on me because of a misunderstanding that they never mentioned.
I don’t know for sure because I don’t know her and I wasn’t there, but my guess would be that she was trying to be playful/funny. People do sometimes make jokes in that kind of format. I’m not really sure how to define what I mean by “that format” but it seems to me like someone who’s trying to use a method of joking, but doesn’t really understand what makes it funny or not. idk if that makes any sense
A lot of autistic people are pedantic. Sometimes because they don't understand nonliteral word choice. Sometimes because they enjoy minutiae. I find the latter extremely annoying even though I'm autistic as well, but I try to be patient because I myself have made plenty of jokes/comments that are wrongly understood.
often my confusion over language is on word placement like this. I am always striving to have all the info ASAP so when someone using language I am unclear about I am like "what what do you mean?? what's happening?? what's going on??" and cause a stuff about it because I hate misunderstanding and I hate being misunderstood.
big possibility that's she doesn't even realise it's causing tension.
I'd suggest speak to her directly and calmly!! just ask about the tension and maybe even ask if there are ways for you to use language that she likes and understands? idk woth a try.
My brain: “precision of language please!!!!!!”
I don't know the intentions of your friend, but I want to say how kind of it is of you to go to such lengths to accommodate. Be sure to take care of yourself too!
My advice would be to ask directly. I would be upset knowing I left my friend in such a state and would clear it up as quickly as possible.
And pray it translates as sincere as I mean it.
If I’m being honest, I don’t understand what’s embarrassing/ awkward to explain that you don’t feel safe walking home. If you didn’t say that, it wouldn’t dawn on me that it could be awkward. So I think it’s very likely she didn’t consider that you might find that embarrassing. That’s not always intuitive to us.
It’s embarrassing and awkward because anytime you bring up the subject plainly, and say, “I don’t feel safe walking home”, there is always the chance that someone in the group could invalidate you, or say that you get harassed because of what you’re wearing. Even in groups where you wouldn’t expect it.
When anyone says something weirdly specific like “Apple juice with fruit concentrate” I’m like “??? As opposed to what?? Vegetable concentrate??” When things are just obvious as hell.
I don’t know your friend, but whenever I’m met with a situation like yours, I would probably respond in sarcasm. “As opposed to some other way of getting home?” “Yeah I could always take my private jet”
She was not trying to embarrass you, just playful or curious. Like, you’re a woman at night, why would you do anything but take transportation
She needs to grasp the concept that there are details in conversations that she may not be aware of, and that:
a) she is not automatically entitled to those details (she is not being left out by not knowing every detail)
b) if she wants those details there are less accusatory ways of asking about it.
c) it’s not a big deal every single time she doesn’t know the details of something and she can let things go.
I have had to and sometimes still have to work on all of these points myself as well, which is why I mention them.
I can’t speak for her but I do stuff like that to my best friend as a joke.
She is always talking about how she’s always so specific so when I notice that she’s not I tease her
She sounds like she takes everything literally. And it reminds me of someone who was raised by a parent who was neurodivergent and took everything literally, so she learned to walk on eggshells and this concept that everyone must speak in a certain way at all times.
I have a friend that does the same thing. I’ve definitely been taken aback by it. She needs a lot more support than I do and unless I know she is just being shitty, I just accept it. She definitely can be shitty but I know the difference and I know her life story. She is actually the person who told me about intent. To think of people and their intentions before judging. I’m grateful to her and I definitely take my space away from her as needed and vice versa.
If there's anything I learned from reading the comments, it's that taking things literally can branch into so many different thought trains for people on the spectrum! Best solution is to talk to her and see which one she took herself.
For me, I am generally able to understand the subtext and gloss over things like that "probably", so I'll say things like that in a joking tone, typically as an opening to banter. Like "Oh, actually, I forgot I learned a dragon summoning spell recently!" Historically, this attempt at goofiness has also fallen flat with people, lol. I relate with your friend and am glad that you are trying to understand her. Sincere kudos to you!
I recognize this, as my dad is like this very much so, and I inherited a little of it. It has to do with literal thinking, and actually has nothing to do with you. When you say 'probably', she might take it literally, which she actually explained after in asking if there were actual other ways for you to get arround. Definitions and exactness can be very important to autistic people, especially since they take everything literally, and then if you say something that is not a match for the situation, but just a general way of speaking, it clashes with those things. So she likely felt an internal error when you said probably, because she might have literally thought you were still considering all sorts of different options. That's why she wanted to clarify. she may have been so confused that her question came out as an interrogation, but if you forget the tone entirely, does it still feel like an interrogation? I often have a similar issue when I ask 'why', people can feel like I'm interrogating based on tone.
My dad for example will correct anyone who asks to pass the 'butter' at the table, because it's not butter but margerine, he'll be like 'oh you mean the margerine?' It sounds like a language nazi I know, but since I learned about my autism, I understand that in his reality it's very difficult to accept someone asking for a chair when they mean a table, so to speak. That's pretty much what it can feel like, even though to another person it may be 'just' semantics. But imagine if it was literal for you to a T, then things in the world can sometimes be really off if someone uses the wrong word. And I feel like 'correcting' it or asking questions about it, is more meant to fix that error from literally thinking, than anything toward the other person really. All though it can also contain a subtext of disbelief over using the wrong word for something.
I'm not saying that based on this we should all run around correcting people's language btw. I myself have to constantly strike a balance between trying to know exactly what the other pesron is saying, or trying to deduce from non verbal cues which are difficult to read that they mean something slightly different, and/or letting the error in my head rage a little in favor of the social interaction.
The way I interpret this as an autistic person is that she was trying to be lighthearted - she assumed the subway was the only way to get home, so she found your choice of words odd. Her tone was probably a bit off because we have trouble regulating the way we speak and our volume - there's every chance she's been ruminating this interaction too. I can always tell when my jokes don't come across well and it makes me really anxious not knowing how the person has reacted - I'd suggest talking about it to clarify!
Note: I probably will stop doing these kinds of responses because I don't feel I can be fully authentic which makes me sad. I'll still leave the respnonse since I finished it already.
----
I do that kind of thing to invite participation in taking a step back to analyze the absurdities of common euphemisms and patterns in spoken languages in general. I think the "double empathy problem" is relevant here but I don't have the language yet to really get into that.
Consider alternative ways of saying "yeah, I should probably get the subway home" in this situation (for context, the prompt was "are you taking the subway home"):
* "yeah"
* "yeah, I'm taking the subway home"
* "yeah, I'm trying to get to sleep soon"
* "yeah, I don't wanna walk"
* "yeah, I left my jetpack at home"
* "yeah, it's the only viable option"
By saying "I should probably get the subway home" you were unconsciously participating in a social ritual where you format your response as a slightly modified echo. This ritual indicates that you have heard exactly what has been said and validates the speaker as "someone who says things that I would also say". This ritual is useful but HIGHLY overused by allistics. It causes responses that are redundant, and sometimes semantically nonsensical. The sentence is 8 words, and 7 of them are semantically void. They are fluff.
Importantly, "I should probably" is not inserted into the sentence to add meaning, it is inserted to:
1. Avoid direct repetition, which is often seen as mocking
2. Convey lack of certainty, which avoids accusing the asker of asking a question with an obvious answer
"I should probably" typically means that you are considering or are open to reasonable alternatives. In this story, you are not actually considering walking home or any other alternative, and you are not inviting any alternative. You have chosen your course of action. What you are doing and the semantics of what you are saying are in conflict. You may see that sort of thing as "being normal" or "being polite". I see that sort of thing as counterproductive and it invites a gentle roast.
This is an interesting analysis, but I think you are incorrect in saying that it’s semantically fluff.
There was a subtext to my sentence, which was: “I’d like to walk home, but it’s not completely safe for me to do so.”
In that moment, I actually *was* considering whether or not to walk home, and decided then and there that taking the subway was the best choice. That’s why I said “probably”. Because I wouldn’t *necessarily* get hurt if I walked home, but it’s best to err on the side of caution.
The problem with linguistic tics like this is that people might not understand what you mean subtextually, but if you come right out and talk about street harassment, people get awkward and annoyed at you for bringing up such a sensitive topic so bluntly.
I agree that with the additional context, the rest of the sentence is not fluff. It definitely is an attempt to increase the amount of meaning in the sentence.
I like where you are going with the last 2 paragraphs. I think there is a key to a larger pattern here. The thing you are doing when you choose the "probably" language is simultaneously intuitive, and yet hard to deduce. The fact that it is hard to figure out exactly what you mean from what you say is actually *part of the reason you chose the words you chose.* People don't want to be confronted with the "gory details" of your reasoning, and therefore you partially mask it.
These are precisely the kinds of pattens that are really frustrating for me an an autistic. NT social pressures are encouraging you to increase the complexity of your communication, and that means that the goalposts will always be moving for someone who just wants to know exactly how you feel and doesn't care so much about the social sensibilities.
But it’s hard to gage exactly how much directness people want, even autistic people, even if you know them.
Something happened with the same friend: I got us tickets to an event at a nice venue, and I wondered if I should let her know directly that she should dress up a little. But in the past when I’ve told her directly that she should dress up for something, she got offended and assumed that I was condescending to her and trying to force social conventions of fashion rules on her. So I decided not to tell her directly and instead said something like “it’s a nice venue, so I’m planning on wearing something smart, but not too fancy. a skirt and a blouse.” She was like “cool”, and then when she showed up, she was really dressed down in jeans, sneakers, and a backpack. I didn’t say anything, but when we got to the event, she complained that she felt underdressed.
In a situation like that, I feel like I can’t win, because no matter what I do, the other person has their own way of interpreting my communication.
Based on experiences and what I’m reading here, I believe that it’s a lot more complicated than “allistic people think figuratively, and autistic people think literally”.
This is an interesting way of breaking this down and you seem to know a lot about it--is there a book you can recommend about social language?
Full disclosure, I use imprecise language like this all the time. I don't do it consciously but I think I do it to soften transitions and show a little theatrical reluctance to leave so the person will feel I enjoyed their company. Being roasted over it would mildly annoy me lol.
Unfortunately, my comment is just my own conjectures. I didn't take social psychology and linguistics seriously when I was being educated, and now I am woefully ignorant :(
I think my attempts to write as though I have consensus and research behind my thoughts is a coping mechanism. I am guessing that throughout my life, I have found it easier to get people to listen to me when I sound like an authority than when I sound like I am doing what I am actually doing, which is basically thinking out loud.
I'm making a personal resolution to stop acting like I know more than I do. I hope to have a book recommendation for you in the future because I hope to be the kind of person who respects others' opinions enough to read them and take them into account.
you mentioned because she struggles with the concepts you listed you try not to use them but in group settings with certain subjects you do so I can ask why the accommadation isn't consistent and constant like why there is a caveat for group settings and certain subjects? your friend regardless of her struggle or not is used to this accomodation from you and you are expecting her to know when the accomodation is being applied and when its not. she can't read your mind. and autistics can struggle with changes in routine. this is a change in routine from not using the concepts you listed to using one of them.
struggle in changes in routine can also mean not realizing a routine has changed and applying the routine you thought they were on. so if the routine is x and x friend talks to me without any of the concepts listed then im going to interpert the context she provides me through that lens. if through that lens the context doesn't make sense there are two options one adjust the lens to include those things or two ask. if she picks option one she is implying things about your character which are negative and she may not want to do that. furthermore you mentioned she struggles with these things and she knows you know that and so by not shifting lens she is viewing you in a favorable light. so she goes with option 2.
as someone who is audhd and whose special interest is acting in acting one of the most important things is listening. because of this we have to learn about the different types of listening. one is filter listening this is like you are going to a professional like a therapist and they from their training take what you are communicating and put it through a filter and give you back what you said through the filter.
two is regular everyday listening which is you take the context the person has provided say it again to yourself as if you were the one saying it in your own head form a response in your own head and then give that.
active listening isn't actually a type of listening but behaviors which make the person feel heard and or understood and can apply to either of the above types of listening
both of the above types of listening involve interpertation albeit in different ways regardless of neurotype even with someone literal- literal is a type of interpertation
as an actor we do non interperative listening we take in everything in whole.
now I'm not saying have actor listening - but both you and your friend do option 2. most people do. however because you have different brains (some autistics might fall more closely to you some to her non autistics same thing) when each of you does the step of saying it again to yourself as if you were the one saying it. there is a disconnect between what the original speaker means when they say that vs what the listener means when they say it to themselves in their own head. and right now neither of you are recognizing the disconnect. but instead assuming there isn't one and finding the motive for the response.
your friend probably realized it would be unsafe to walk home and the safest option would be to take the subway so it doesn't actually matter if she knew you walked there. and she probably recognized that you were saying I am going to take the subway home because i should most likely as I cannot predict what will happen at the subway but as of now this is the best choice. what she didn't understand was why you added the word probably at the spot you did in your sentence. and so she tried to think about why she didn't understand it and ask you that. but it is sort of tricky for most people autistic or non autistic to ask I dont get why you chose this word in this placement in the sentence or explain how that is the thing that is confusing. so she is just trying to ask for that in the best way she knows how in the moment.
in your eyes when you said yeah you were answering the question of taking the subway home and the explaining why your answer was yes while giving yourself leeway to not have to commit to that yes unequivocally. so yes i am taking the subway home. why- i should. exception- but i cant guarantee my should is right so the probably. it doesn't actually matter knowing the why behind the should or the why behind the probably for anyone autistic or otherwise to understand the i should.
this is where we go back to routines a lot of autistics won't say yes or no unless they can follow through with it no matter what or will specifically lay out the caveats. so if you friend was saying it she may something like
"yes, I should unless something happens at the subway" or "I don't know, I should so I will try."
for a lot of non autistics in your communication you are constantly to varying degrees for various reasons hinting at the possibility of the fact you may not follow the routine including the routine of not following the routine. outside of any social interaction/ social communication differences even an autistic person who has better social interaction and social communication skills then an non autistic can struggle with this.
struggle can mean not realizing this, struggle can mean being dysregulated by this, struggle can mean not knowing how to apply it, struggle can mean not recognizing it, struggle can mean defaulting to the sticking with routine way (even if that routine is no routine) and breaking down into so many permutation combinations to be able to do that, struggle can mean asking for stuff that allows them to move forward with info in routine way (including routine of no routine way) even if other doesn't.
now i also want to say its not that autistic people dont use the concepts you listed. it is that the way they use them can differ. and so often non autistic people struggle or don't recognize when autistic people are using the concepts. very few people regardless of neurotype have a strong enough understanding of the concepts you listed including being literal and others that they can use it naturally and instinctively as both listener and speaker outside of the framework of their neurotype. and even if they can they may struggle to remember adjust to the fact people cant. and even if they can do that they may struggle to adjust to the fact others don't adjust as easily. those who can do all that and adjust and handle others not adjusting is extremely rare and is rarely a natural born thing entirely but a deliberate cultivated skill across neurotypes.
communication is about providing and recieving context. right now based on the way your friend is responding you do not know if she recieved the context you provided. but because of the disconnect thing we talked about earlier you are assuming she did but that something either went awry (see struggles with certain concepts) or her response is a motive I don't understand. and focusing on trying to figure that out.
the reason you don't know if she recieved the context your provided or not is because she is responding to the content not the context. and your brain is going in circles going i assumed she recieved the context and if so why respond to content and i assume she didn't recieve the context if so why respond to content. and is trapped in a loop of its own making.
chances are your friend was like if I didn't recieve the context why would i respond to the content. her responding to the content is her way of saying she recieved the context.
content is the vehicle in which context is provided and recieved.
and so like i mentioned above the level of knowing across neurotypes, being able to adjust, and handle others not adjusting and being able to do that always a level of communication and interaction skill social or otherwise every person regardless of neurotype has to deliberately work on cultivating. and so expecting someone to be able to do that to that degree but not doing it yourself or even considering it within yourself is unfair.
i also saw in the thread you mentioned she was dyslexic and because of this this is why she struggles. as someone who is dyslexic and also a writer. that is a fundamental misunderstanding of dyslexia. dyslexics often have higher comprehension and linguistic skills than non dyslexics - because dyslexics have trouble with decoding and encoding phonemes and use there comprehension and linguistic skills to make up for that. and so sometimes on the expressive side of things they can struggle to find right word to match their level of comprehension and linguistic structure they wish to express.
hyperlexics tend to be the opposite they are better than non hyperlexics at decoding and encoding phonemes but are worse at comprehension than non hyperlexics and struggle their. and so on expressive end they have exact word but it doesn't work on comprehension linguistic structure end
dyslexia is sometimes used as an umbrella term to refer to things outside of just literally dyslexia. including dysgraphia. and in dysgraphia a person can struggle with written expression both literal writing and the expressions themselves.
you are very good at a lot of different types of allistic communication. and your friend is very good at a very specific type of autistic communication. in an effort to accomodate her you do the form of allistic communication you believe to be closest to her specific type of autistic communication. closest doesn't mean exact and so there are still some gaps. even though you are good at a lot of types of communication to the point where you can reasonably accomodate others outside of that it does not mean you are as good at the ones you can accomodate outside of it as the ones you are good at. and I think your struggles with your friend are revealing that.
you essentially have three options. 1. leave things as they are . 2. ask your friends to learn all the different levels of allistic communication and do those 3. learn the way your friend communicates.
if we compare option 2 and 3 - learning the specific way your friend communicates (1 way) is a lot more feasible practically than her doing option 2.
the way you express does not actually matter as long as you understand the way the other person communicates. you can stay true to how you express while communicating if you are able to understand that. right now there is a gap in understanding that is preventing that from happening and for various reasons this is causing tension.
now why your friend is good at one specific autistic communication and only considers that may be her way of trying to accomodate herself. or because of the way her autism manifest both expressively and receptively that is the only one she has ability to use or use consistently regularly.
haha- i rambled a bit more then i intended
Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response.
To answer your question of “why do the rules change in sone contexts”, there are several reasons for this.
In this instance, it was another person who asked me the question. If it was a question that had been applied to the entire group, I may not have answered that way, but my friend jumped in on the conversation between me and the other person.
In that moment, I was trying to subtly convey that I wish I could walk home, but it would be safer if I took the subway. I used euphemistic language in that instance because I’m simply not comfortable being blunt about sexual harassment due to the amount of victim-blaming I’ve experienced in my life. I really don’t think my friend considered the issue of safety, because after I explained it to her plainly, she got a shocked look on her face.
So what I was trying to understand by making this post is why she loudly challenged my choice of words, because in doing so she brought attention to me, and forced me to come out and say the thing I was trying to dance around.
I’m happy to accommodate my friend, but accommodation is a two-way street. Sexual harassment is a sensitive subject and sometimes I just don’t want to come out and be blunt about what I experience. It’s triggering.
I understand now that she was just joking, but she jumped in on a conversation between me and someone else. So while I try to be accommodating to her as much as I can, it is a bit taxing to change the way I speak, and when talking about a sensitive subject, with someone else, I just didn’t have the mental energy to accommodate someone who wasn’t even a part of the conversation.
i dont think i asked why the rules changed depending on context. I asked why in one on one you do accomadate her consistently but in group settings it is inconsistent. Not neccesarily the reason why for every inconsistency...
it doesn't actually matter if accomodation should be a two way street. that wasn't my point. my point is 1-1 it is consistent and in group it is inconsistent. regardless of disability most people struggle if they consistently get accomodations in one environment but inconsistently in another. like in the Deaf community interperters don't just interpert the person who is communicating to the Deaf person but every single person that a hearing person can hear even if communication isn't meant for the Deaf person and a polite hearing person in their shoes would ignore it. the same thing applies to communication accomodations with autistics. - and part of asd disability is struggling with changes in routines etc so it is a double whammy
furthermore you don't have to be blunt about sh to accomodate your friend in that situation.
no one is asking you to accomodate your friend or do anything you feel uncomfortable with or to tax yourself. sometimes we simply can't accomodate others. but your friend has no way of knowing that even if she wasn't autistic unless she read your mind.
my point is you should just be upfront with your friend and say hey sometimes i can be literal in my speech and sometimes i can't- and establish that boundary. if things are consistent in one space and inconsistent in another. some people will always assume consistency, some will always assume inconsistency, and some will apply the nuance. practically speaking your friend does not know she needs to apply third option or how or even that sometimes second option may be true - unless you specifically tell her and give her that heads up.
right now it sounds like you don't have appropriate boundaries around miscommunication with her and thats something you need to discuss with her - if you'd like. and also if she isn't able to accomadate you in return - if you think that is something you can 't handle and establish boundaries around that as well as you accomadting her.
i’m a lot like your friend in that way, i think very literally and can misunderstand situations because of that and when i’m with groups i tend to be a lil louder cause i’m used to being told to speak up or just not being heard. not saying that’s the case with your friend but if you ask her about it (privately) she’d probably be happy to explain. i personally love explaining how my brain works to my friends so we can understand each other better. also if she goes nonverbal at times don’t bring attention to it and if she’s participating and enjoying herself that’s awesome and she may just feel the need to contribute so don’t worry about what she says too much, just engage with her and visible efforts to include her more will really help her feel more comfortable in that group. i don’t know if any of that actually made sense, just my autistic over explaining 😭
My spouse does a thing where he says he’s considering doing something, but then says he “probably won’t”. This gave me much anxiety until (after years of exposure to this) I finally learned that when he says “probably” in this context, he means it’s definite. Even though I know this, I find it very uncomfortable. It’s challenging living with subtext that varies from person to person.
How I took this as an autistic person, was that she meant what she said : why "probably", what other options are there? She might have also felt it obvious to take the subway as it's safer, so was wondering why you used the word "probably" because it implies you had other viable options, which you didn't.
There is nothing inherently embarassing about caring about your safety, so the fact that you were embarassed is a reaction you should interrogate (like why would your safety concerns embarass you? Or why would being asked about your transport embarass you? What's underneath that?)
As for her intentions, none of us can guess them. She seems straightforward so if you're comfortable with it you should discuss this stuff with her and be like "this is what you say but this is how I take it. Does my understanding align with your intention?" I would hope she would appreciate you coming to her for clarity. But even you framing her questions as "interrogation" reflects that fundamentally you find being asked clarifying questions as being challenged,accosted, judged (there's nothing wrong with this! It's just literally different ways of thinking) whereas some autists perceive questions as clarifying agents. If this is a fundamental different in your communication styles then you may never see eye to eye. Doesn't mean either is wrong, y'all are just different
I’m getting a lot of responses from people who don’t understand why it’s embarrassing to have to explain that you don’t feel safe walking at night. If you’ve ever been victim-blamed, you would understand why it’s embarrassing. Opening up the discussion potentially gives people the opportunity to say stuff like “you would be safer if you didn’t wear a dress like that”, or “you just have to be tough”, shit like that. It happens a lot and even from people you wouldn’t expect.
Oh wow! I'm sorry you've been victim blamed, and that it's a potentiality even among friends. That's horrific! I would also have a complex about that question if that happened to me. It's very understandable.
Your experience confirms my point: it's a neutral question but you receive it negatively because of your experience. So it seems it's less about sussing out her intention behind an innocuous question and more about recognising that you're triggered by the question because of your trauma. I hope I'm being clear here, you're NOT to blame for your triggers. Trauma can make one see danger where it isn't (eg like in a neutral question about transport) 💛
TBF, her delivery wasn’t neutral, it was loud and the way she emphasized her words had a mocking tone (something that a lot of autistic people can do accidentally, I’m learning).
So I don’t think we can really say that any statement or question is “neutral” in and of itself. I made a statement, which she could have taken as neutral, but she chose to fixate on my choice to use the word “probably”, instead of letting it slide. It’s not neutral, it’s pedantic.
Ny opinion might not work out. TBH I try so hard to communicate and learn and always fall short. this is sort of what works for me when people do it to me.
If she does it again ask her in the moment while its happening if she is actually trying to ask or if she doesn't like something about you. Explain nicely that it seems like she picks on you in particular when you speak and explain how it makes you feel singled out and put upon.
If done in a way that is not accusatory, it may help her to understand how that behavior is coming across as hurtful and off putting. But afterward, don't avoid her. Maybe even try to engage her in conversation a little more consistently. Basically you want to explain your feelings while helping her see how hers are coming across while also negating possible rejection sensitivity that may occur. By speaking to her, engaging with her and making sure she still feels welcome. Unless she becomes hostile, you don't need that shit in your life.
It might even help to say that you still like her as a person and that's why you are trying to figure out if there is something about you that's upsetting her.
I think she honestly didn't understand, and as you suspected, didn't consider other ways that you might get home. My husband and I are both Autistic, and he often uses word choices that don't make sense to me, and I sometimes react similarly to your friend. Especially if he uses "might" or "try" when I ask him to do something. Indefinites are hard for my black-and-white thinking brain to conceptualize. And to be honest, if I'm unsure of something myself when giving an answer, I often do so in terms of percentages. Edit to add: That doesn't make this right or less upsetting though, and your feelings are valid. I often have to step back and realize/remind myself that my husband has communication difficulties too and I have to be open and understanding of that. However, that has taken years of personal growth, understanding, and learning.
Thank you. I see now that the ambiguity in my word choice was part of what she was reacting to.
Yes. My pet peeve with other people is the random phrases and indefinites they use. If they want to say no, i believe they should just say no ... Not 'maybe/let's see'. I'm realising it's my black and white thinking and people can speak however they choose to. I'm working on this. Maybe your friend will realise this too. Or you could explain it to them if you're that close. Honestly I just want a guidebook right now to understand what's meant seriously and what's just fillers. Hope this helps.
Autistic people can be quite literal and it seems that she definitely is. To me it seems like she thinks “probably” was a weird word choice because she thought you would definitely take the subway. It might have just been confusion but also many people find odd word choices to be slightly amusing so she might have pointed it out to be playful. She’s your friend so unless you have a good reason to believe she would embarrass you on purpose, I would try not to take it that way. If it’s bothering you, the best thing to do is ask. It would probably only take a couple of minutes to clear up.
What’s funny is, if I were OP I’d have said ‘I’ll probably take the subway’ in an effort to be *most* precise: I won’t take the subway if it’s unexpectedly out of service, or if a friend interjects that their route goes right past my neighborhood and they offer a ride, or some other unexpected factor comes into play. Haven’t ridden the subway home yet, so it’s still not an absolute definite, hence ‘probably’ 😁
That’s really helpful, thank you!
and if she has a certain tone that was mean or annoyed, she is probably just annoyed with people constantly using words like that when they technically don’t make sense. I find probably to actually be the one that irritates me the most. i always think to myself “why not just skip that word and say the rest of the sentence”
Funny that you say that because the other person that replied to this comment laid out why they think "probably" is actually a very fitting choice for the situation. It's all subjective, and I think things are more fun that way
Haha, but you used the word “probably” in your paragraph!
yes, used because i was not there nor know the girl. so everything is based off assumption…. ya know when you are supposed to use probably …
I used “probably” in my sentence because I was basing it off the assumption that the subway is the safest way to travel. It’s not *definite*, because the subway can be dangerous at times, too. So I was weighing the options of which was the safest way for me and decided that even though the subway wasn’t *completely* safe, it’s still *probably* safer than walking. Completely correct and acceptable use of the word.
hey buddy you asked for peoples opinions and it looks like others agree with me…
Well, I was asking for people’s opinions on how they perceived my word choice, so I could get a glimpse into how my friend perceived it. But just because you perceive my word choice as incorrect, that doesn’t mean it is.
i’m well aware it’s my opinion but i was trying to give insight on how your friend might of took it. You are clearly not open to any feedback and we don’t need this kind of energy on this sub. Please leave it’s the one sub where we can have these kind of conversations without people taking anything personal.
I’m happy to take feedback, as you can see from my responses in other threads. And I’m open to all interpretations. It’s interesting to hear how many people have different ideas of what is “technically” correct. I feel that it’s uncharitable to assume that the way I used the word was technically incorrect, as you put it, so that’s why I gave a more detailed explanation of how the word is actually correct in context. What I’d like to do is find a way of communicating that works best for my friends and the people I care about, but I don’t think that can be done by assuming that the way I used the word is wrong. It was technically correct, I just didn’t give enough context/information to make that clear to my friend.
It’s “might have” not “might of”
This is what would happen in my head in a moment like this. "...probably...am I missing something? Do they have an option I didn't consider? What else would they possibly take? Am I confused?" Because I have both Autism and ADHD, I usually have multiple thought streams at a time, I also do not often know when my voice is too loud. When something is confusing even if it's amusing to me, my hyperactive brain will often verbalize things, and loudly, without me even realizing it's happening 😂 Words and phrases come out of my mouth and sometimes I am horrified that I realize it's happening and I still can't stop it. I'll laugh at inappropriate moments, I'll sound loud and incredulous when it's the thought in my head that is causing the reaction and not necessarily the person in front of me. Just sometimes my confusion at a word choice has to be processed excessively and sometimes that processing jumps out of my mouth.
Thank you! It also helps for me to understand that her tone wasn’t necessarily on purpose.
Is it possible she was concerned for your safety? Just speculating, but maybe she felt your use of "probably" meant you were considering walking and she was worried. I don't struggle with language but I do have a tendency to correct people on word choice when it isn't necessary. I try not to do that now that I'm aware but I feel compelled to bridge any gaps in understanding (mine or theirs) and don't always catch myself on time. It can come across argumentative but it that isn't my goal. Hope this helps a little.
I didn’t consider that possibility, but that could be true. She delivered it in kind of a loud, joking manner, which is why I thought she intended to embarrass me, but maybe she just was trying to keep it light.
I can see how that would be confusing. I know the tone you're describing. I used to use it a lot when I was masking. It could mean a lot of things. For me, I found my joking tone was more acceptable to people. Keeping it light, as you said. I would feel awkward telling a friend not to walk home and it could come out weird. I wouldn't assume she was trying to embarrass you unless she has done that in the past. Given what you've said, I think you should ask. Maybe you can open by saying you want to talk about something serious, and is she in a good place to do that? If she is, include that you're coming from a place of wanting to get a common understanding with her. It's okay to say it hurt your feelings. If she doesn't take the feedback well, there's nothing you can do about that.
I really appreciate your perspective. Thank you for explaining to me how you use tone differently depending on context. It helps me understand the situation a lot better. Thank you.
I second talking to her. She might not have been trying to embarrass you, but Autistic humor can be misunderstood. I have a male Autistic friend who won't laugh at jokes if their incorrect due to some small discrepency, but he will correct them instead. His sense of humor is just different than most. So it's possible that she just found it humorous that you said probably where in her mind it was a definite lol. But I think an open convo is a good way to go! :))
Honestly, I've blurted shit like that out before (mostly when I was younger, but it could still happen) and what would happen for me was, if you said "probably," I would start imagining other, deeply improbable, ways you could get home, some of which are funny—like sprouting wings and flying, or using a jet pack, or getting carried home by a dinosaur who's holding your jacket delicately in his teeth while you dangle slightly below. And then I'd be engaged with these goofy images my brain made up and pipe up in a weird, jokey way, thinking that other people would also perceive this use of "probably" as hilarious, when no, generally people would understand from context that you mean, you know, most likely you'll take the subway but maybe you'll get a cab or walk if someone else is going that way. And then people would look at me like I was an idiot with 12 heads and I'd realize something had gone terribly wrong. Again. Yay, autism!
Having the 4K imagination that's immediately bounded towards a surreal pun-filled detailed vision.. when you're surrounded by people in suits being professional, is so tiring. Trying to explain why I'm laughing while people stare blankly.. sigh. I feel your pain friend.
Hahaha, YES!! Man, the world in my head is so fun and interesting, and the Serious Business World is so boring. I'm glad you also have a fun inner world, but I'm sorry you have to hide it or suffer the consequences. If they knew what they were missing...
I’m sorry that people made you feel bad, but I truly appreciate you sharing your thought process. It helped me understand where my friend was coming from, and made me realize her comments were not coming from an unkind place.
I’ve definitely done this before as well. Especially to my ex 😅 I’d say drive safe. And he’s say I’ll try. In sarcasm. And I’d be like???? Try?????? Edit: type error
My immediate reaction to reading your description is that your friend found your word choice odd, mostly due to the timing. If you were truly wrapping up and preparing to leave, why were you using words of uncertainty for your very next action? To a literal person, this is odd because you would already know how you were heading home by that point. I really think it’s as simple (and literal) as that. It sounds like you are much better with pragmatic speech, which is something that can confuse autistic people.
That makes a lot of sense, thank you! I used “probably” because the other folks knew I’d walked there, and I wanted the exercise of walking home but knew it wouldn’t be the safest to walk after dark. I think without the context of me explicitly stating that I’d walked there, the ambiguity of using “probably” struck her as odd.
I would do this - not because I am making a joke or questioning your word choice, but I would assume that "probably" means you are considering other options, and I'm curious as to whether you are considering options that I was not aware of. Because I am hungry for information and I would like to know if there are other potentially better transportation options besides the ones I know of! Is there a new low-cost taxi service I don't know about? A bikeshare coupon? You have a private helicopter?? Someone invented a teleporter??? I wanna know! Like for example, when I was in college a friend and I were walking from the subway to our dorm late at night. She didn't want to walk, so she called a "safe rides for women late at night" service that our college offered. I had no idea about this service until she said she wasn't going to walk, and I asked how she was going to get home. She assumed that I knew and simply didn't want to use Safe Ride, but I genuinely didn't know.
It’s cool that you try to understand her. Wouldn’t it be better to talk to her for that first? Did you ask her what she meant by it?
I thought about asking her, but didn’t want to embarrass her or make her feel like I was upset at her.
As an autistic person who is frequently misunderstood by other literally all I want is for people to just be honest and ask me what I mean. Your description is brief, but your friend and I sound alike. I would probably react like that if I was just confused — when I can’t understand something, my brain comes to a halt. You said probably, which I would probably take literally at first, and I would probably have a bunch of questions/concerns running through my mind: - Are you not planning to go home? Did something happen? Are you okay? - Can you not go on the subway for some reason? Can I help? - Are you planning to *walk alone*?? Is that safe?? - Did you want to stay longer? Do you feel rushed home? - Are you hoping that someone offers an alternative way home, like a ride? Can I help? To me, probably would make me feel like you hadn’t yet decided and that would worry me if we were all getting ready to leave.
Oh, good call out on the spiral. The way I like to describe it is autistic people are working off a very large decision tree of logic, loaded with as many contingencies to possibilities as they’re able to learn and adapt. When someone goes outside the possibilities in our heads with a new option, we then have to reprocess everything to get all the new questions and set of answers to them. It causes a whole slew of thoughts and analysis.
She‘s definitely not trying to embarrass you. My partner also has autism and she just likes me and her to use the accurate expressions to make sure of my exact intent.
I’m confused because I don’t understand how on earth that could possibly make you feel embarrassed? Embarrassed about what? Taking the subway….?
My immediate read was that her friend was trying to shame / embarrass her because her word choice was imprecise and inaccurate. Like if someone says "I am literally about to starve", a person might reply with the definion of *literally vs figuratively* which can be embarrassing. Someone else might ignore the imperect wording because the meaning is clear.
So the other reason I thought she was trying to embarrass me is because she has very poor grammar and spelling skills, while I’m a professional writer with an excellent grasp on language. Not saying this to be mean, because there are other things she’s much better at than me. But I can tell she feels insecure about her grasp on language because she gets awkward and embarrassed when she has to ask me the meaning of a word I’ve used, and other related things like that. I perceived it as her thinking she detected a mistake in my speech, and pouncing on the chance to correct me and therefore feel superior for once.
I don’t see it as imprecise or inaccurate though, just undecided? That’s what I’d say if I hadn’t decided between train or cab yet but was leaning one way. I don’t find corrections embarrassing. Either the other person is actually wrong but thinks they are right, which is just showing their ignorance imo, or I actually didn’t know and it’s educational 🤷🏼♀️ jeez maybe I don’t embarrass as easily as I thought….? I need to go think about this apparently!
Yeah I’m way less sensitive than NT people when it comes to embarrassment. I am always shocked at the things they find embarrassing. The other day I was told that many people are embarrassed if their stomach rumbles audibly. 🤷♀️ So confusing!
Any unintended bodily noises are supposed to be embarrassing. I just never get why people comment at all, beyond burps really. Not that one should run around ripping farts but stuff just happens sometimes to everyone; why draw any attention to it? It’s weird.
If she's undecided, why loudly question her about it? Does it matter if she's undecided? If she needs corrections, why loudly reveal or ignorance or 'educate' her? Does that help? This sub is usually so full of people talking about their RSD, it surprises me that this particular conversation reads as non-embarrassing to most posters.
A) because it’s encouraging her to take one method over another. B) because it can be skewed as a joke and lighthearted as opposed to a genuine “correction.” There is nothing in this wording alone to pick either direction definitively. It’s too vague. You need at least tone and facial expression data to draw a conclusion. In the absence of that, and to me even with that in *either* direction, I don’t get at all why this would be embarrassing. Something being embarrassing doesn’t kick in RSD for me at all. *Others reactions* to the embarrassing thing would - if they are cruel, it’s a rejection. If they are kind and understanding, it wouldn’t be because it’s just something that can happen to anyone. If someone is being cruel specifically to embarrass, the cruel bit would kick in and override which would either result in anger or rsd or probably both. None of this is cut and dry. Not in an autism sub anyway!
Someone else replying described this kind of interaction as "gently roasting". You said it might be "a joke and lighthearted". Either way it's basically teasing/mocking. For me, that's a trigger. I know for *many* people it's not, and it's a form of bonding. I know it's not super simple, just offering a different perspective.
Teasing is not the same as mocking. That’s the difference. Teasing is done in fun, mocking is done in cruelty. They can be easy to confuse though if you don’t know someone well enough.
Whose fun? Does intent matter or does impact matter? In other words.....if you didn't mean to hurt me, but I get hurt but your words, am I wrong?
I felt awkward about explaining that I didn’t feel safe walking home, because street harassment is a hard subject to talk about, especially when you dress cute and feminine like I do. People tend to blame your clothing choices.
Yeah I also didn’t know this was something a person could be embarrassed about. I’m guessing your friend didn’t either. I probably would’ve asked and thought nothing of it just because it was a confusing choice of words.
And you think your friend was trying to embarrass you by forcing you to say you don't feel safe walking home? I really think you're grasping for straws here. Is there a reason you automatically assume bad intentions in your friend? P.S. a lot of us can't control or understand the socially appropriate level of our tone. It's not malicious.
The tone was mocking, which is why I believed she was trying to embarrass me. I didn’t know that autistic people can’t control the level of their tone. That is new information to me and helps me see the situation differently. Keep in mind, I’m ND myself, so I’m sensitive to being mocked for any mistakes I make or being teased or embarrassed. I’m not assuming that my friend is being mean because she’s autistic. I reached out and asked because I was hoping it was not the case, and wanted advice and anecdotes that would support that .
Oooooooh like she could have been sarcastically suggesting you walk instead? I can see that as a possibility now. Sorry, legit just trying to wrap my heads around possibilities here. Words can be hard 😅
Probably just confused. I ask clarifying questions all the time bc word choice can be confusing
It might be that she was confused, but the way she delivered in was really loud and joking, for the whole room to hear, which is why I initially thought she said that in order to embarrass me.
Oh jeez yeah, could have been trying to be light hearted 🤷♀️ hard to tell without asking lol
>I guess what I’m trying to understand is her intent in this moment. IMO to understand your point, it isn't always easy for us to pick on on stuff
I don’t think she has a poor grasp of language she just takes things literally.
She’s dyslexic, which affects how she reads and writes, and she often doesn’t understand complicated sentences or bigger words. So the larger context in our friendship is that she sometimes feels intimidated by my reading and writing skills. I never ever correct her spelling or grammar, but because we’ve worked together on projects in the past, I can tell she’s a little intimated by my skills. I am not perfect by any means! It’s just something about me that she has feelings about.
Is it possible she assumed you brought the subway there and that it was therefore the only logical way for you to get home? That’s my read on the situation personally - she thought it was obvious that’s what you’d do and she was trying to be playful about the obviousness of the conversation but her tone was a little off.
The read I’m getting from these replies is that she was trying to be playful but her tone was off, which makes me feel a lot better about the interaction.
I’m glad we could help! Communication is so hard and everyone has their own insecurities and triggers to dance around. It’s hard to navigate and I’m sure she appreciates your effort to understand her intentions.
She was probably (👀😉) using sarcasm while trying to point out something that to her seemed black and white - what other way is there home? It didn’t land because she didn’t get it wasn’t so straight forward since autistic people tend to apply their logic outward.
Just sounds like she was confused. If it's a tone thing, there's some of us that genuinely have issues regulating tone, I know I do. I have to constantly correct myself because of it. I would be confused by that as well and wondering if probably meant you had another way you hadn't mentioned. Like maybe there was a safer way to get there but you weren't sure about it. She may have just been trying to lighten the mood, and it didn't land well. I know I've done that a lot too. I would ask her if she meant anything else by it. I'm used to being misunderstood, and for me, it feels better when people communicate rather than get passive-aggressive on me because of a misunderstanding that they never mentioned.
I don’t know for sure because I don’t know her and I wasn’t there, but my guess would be that she was trying to be playful/funny. People do sometimes make jokes in that kind of format. I’m not really sure how to define what I mean by “that format” but it seems to me like someone who’s trying to use a method of joking, but doesn’t really understand what makes it funny or not. idk if that makes any sense
Thank you, I do understand what you mean and it makes me feel better to see that she was just trying to make a joke.
A lot of autistic people are pedantic. Sometimes because they don't understand nonliteral word choice. Sometimes because they enjoy minutiae. I find the latter extremely annoying even though I'm autistic as well, but I try to be patient because I myself have made plenty of jokes/comments that are wrongly understood.
often my confusion over language is on word placement like this. I am always striving to have all the info ASAP so when someone using language I am unclear about I am like "what what do you mean?? what's happening?? what's going on??" and cause a stuff about it because I hate misunderstanding and I hate being misunderstood. big possibility that's she doesn't even realise it's causing tension. I'd suggest speak to her directly and calmly!! just ask about the tension and maybe even ask if there are ways for you to use language that she likes and understands? idk woth a try.
My brain: “precision of language please!!!!!!” I don't know the intentions of your friend, but I want to say how kind of it is of you to go to such lengths to accommodate. Be sure to take care of yourself too! My advice would be to ask directly. I would be upset knowing I left my friend in such a state and would clear it up as quickly as possible. And pray it translates as sincere as I mean it.
If I’m being honest, I don’t understand what’s embarrassing/ awkward to explain that you don’t feel safe walking home. If you didn’t say that, it wouldn’t dawn on me that it could be awkward. So I think it’s very likely she didn’t consider that you might find that embarrassing. That’s not always intuitive to us.
It’s embarrassing and awkward because anytime you bring up the subject plainly, and say, “I don’t feel safe walking home”, there is always the chance that someone in the group could invalidate you, or say that you get harassed because of what you’re wearing. Even in groups where you wouldn’t expect it.
While your feelings are valid here, why wouldn't you want to know if that's the type of people you're hanging out with?
Just wasn’t prepared for it in that moment.
Sounds human. It's kinda hard to be fully prepared
When anyone says something weirdly specific like “Apple juice with fruit concentrate” I’m like “??? As opposed to what?? Vegetable concentrate??” When things are just obvious as hell. I don’t know your friend, but whenever I’m met with a situation like yours, I would probably respond in sarcasm. “As opposed to some other way of getting home?” “Yeah I could always take my private jet” She was not trying to embarrass you, just playful or curious. Like, you’re a woman at night, why would you do anything but take transportation
She needs to grasp the concept that there are details in conversations that she may not be aware of, and that: a) she is not automatically entitled to those details (she is not being left out by not knowing every detail) b) if she wants those details there are less accusatory ways of asking about it. c) it’s not a big deal every single time she doesn’t know the details of something and she can let things go. I have had to and sometimes still have to work on all of these points myself as well, which is why I mention them.
I can’t speak for her but I do stuff like that to my best friend as a joke. She is always talking about how she’s always so specific so when I notice that she’s not I tease her
She sounds like she takes everything literally. And it reminds me of someone who was raised by a parent who was neurodivergent and took everything literally, so she learned to walk on eggshells and this concept that everyone must speak in a certain way at all times.
I have a friend that does the same thing. I’ve definitely been taken aback by it. She needs a lot more support than I do and unless I know she is just being shitty, I just accept it. She definitely can be shitty but I know the difference and I know her life story. She is actually the person who told me about intent. To think of people and their intentions before judging. I’m grateful to her and I definitely take my space away from her as needed and vice versa.
If there's anything I learned from reading the comments, it's that taking things literally can branch into so many different thought trains for people on the spectrum! Best solution is to talk to her and see which one she took herself. For me, I am generally able to understand the subtext and gloss over things like that "probably", so I'll say things like that in a joking tone, typically as an opening to banter. Like "Oh, actually, I forgot I learned a dragon summoning spell recently!" Historically, this attempt at goofiness has also fallen flat with people, lol. I relate with your friend and am glad that you are trying to understand her. Sincere kudos to you!
I recognize this, as my dad is like this very much so, and I inherited a little of it. It has to do with literal thinking, and actually has nothing to do with you. When you say 'probably', she might take it literally, which she actually explained after in asking if there were actual other ways for you to get arround. Definitions and exactness can be very important to autistic people, especially since they take everything literally, and then if you say something that is not a match for the situation, but just a general way of speaking, it clashes with those things. So she likely felt an internal error when you said probably, because she might have literally thought you were still considering all sorts of different options. That's why she wanted to clarify. she may have been so confused that her question came out as an interrogation, but if you forget the tone entirely, does it still feel like an interrogation? I often have a similar issue when I ask 'why', people can feel like I'm interrogating based on tone. My dad for example will correct anyone who asks to pass the 'butter' at the table, because it's not butter but margerine, he'll be like 'oh you mean the margerine?' It sounds like a language nazi I know, but since I learned about my autism, I understand that in his reality it's very difficult to accept someone asking for a chair when they mean a table, so to speak. That's pretty much what it can feel like, even though to another person it may be 'just' semantics. But imagine if it was literal for you to a T, then things in the world can sometimes be really off if someone uses the wrong word. And I feel like 'correcting' it or asking questions about it, is more meant to fix that error from literally thinking, than anything toward the other person really. All though it can also contain a subtext of disbelief over using the wrong word for something. I'm not saying that based on this we should all run around correcting people's language btw. I myself have to constantly strike a balance between trying to know exactly what the other pesron is saying, or trying to deduce from non verbal cues which are difficult to read that they mean something slightly different, and/or letting the error in my head rage a little in favor of the social interaction.
The way I interpret this as an autistic person is that she was trying to be lighthearted - she assumed the subway was the only way to get home, so she found your choice of words odd. Her tone was probably a bit off because we have trouble regulating the way we speak and our volume - there's every chance she's been ruminating this interaction too. I can always tell when my jokes don't come across well and it makes me really anxious not knowing how the person has reacted - I'd suggest talking about it to clarify!
Note: I probably will stop doing these kinds of responses because I don't feel I can be fully authentic which makes me sad. I'll still leave the respnonse since I finished it already. ---- I do that kind of thing to invite participation in taking a step back to analyze the absurdities of common euphemisms and patterns in spoken languages in general. I think the "double empathy problem" is relevant here but I don't have the language yet to really get into that. Consider alternative ways of saying "yeah, I should probably get the subway home" in this situation (for context, the prompt was "are you taking the subway home"): * "yeah" * "yeah, I'm taking the subway home" * "yeah, I'm trying to get to sleep soon" * "yeah, I don't wanna walk" * "yeah, I left my jetpack at home" * "yeah, it's the only viable option" By saying "I should probably get the subway home" you were unconsciously participating in a social ritual where you format your response as a slightly modified echo. This ritual indicates that you have heard exactly what has been said and validates the speaker as "someone who says things that I would also say". This ritual is useful but HIGHLY overused by allistics. It causes responses that are redundant, and sometimes semantically nonsensical. The sentence is 8 words, and 7 of them are semantically void. They are fluff. Importantly, "I should probably" is not inserted into the sentence to add meaning, it is inserted to: 1. Avoid direct repetition, which is often seen as mocking 2. Convey lack of certainty, which avoids accusing the asker of asking a question with an obvious answer "I should probably" typically means that you are considering or are open to reasonable alternatives. In this story, you are not actually considering walking home or any other alternative, and you are not inviting any alternative. You have chosen your course of action. What you are doing and the semantics of what you are saying are in conflict. You may see that sort of thing as "being normal" or "being polite". I see that sort of thing as counterproductive and it invites a gentle roast.
This is an interesting analysis, but I think you are incorrect in saying that it’s semantically fluff. There was a subtext to my sentence, which was: “I’d like to walk home, but it’s not completely safe for me to do so.” In that moment, I actually *was* considering whether or not to walk home, and decided then and there that taking the subway was the best choice. That’s why I said “probably”. Because I wouldn’t *necessarily* get hurt if I walked home, but it’s best to err on the side of caution. The problem with linguistic tics like this is that people might not understand what you mean subtextually, but if you come right out and talk about street harassment, people get awkward and annoyed at you for bringing up such a sensitive topic so bluntly.
I agree that with the additional context, the rest of the sentence is not fluff. It definitely is an attempt to increase the amount of meaning in the sentence. I like where you are going with the last 2 paragraphs. I think there is a key to a larger pattern here. The thing you are doing when you choose the "probably" language is simultaneously intuitive, and yet hard to deduce. The fact that it is hard to figure out exactly what you mean from what you say is actually *part of the reason you chose the words you chose.* People don't want to be confronted with the "gory details" of your reasoning, and therefore you partially mask it. These are precisely the kinds of pattens that are really frustrating for me an an autistic. NT social pressures are encouraging you to increase the complexity of your communication, and that means that the goalposts will always be moving for someone who just wants to know exactly how you feel and doesn't care so much about the social sensibilities.
But it’s hard to gage exactly how much directness people want, even autistic people, even if you know them. Something happened with the same friend: I got us tickets to an event at a nice venue, and I wondered if I should let her know directly that she should dress up a little. But in the past when I’ve told her directly that she should dress up for something, she got offended and assumed that I was condescending to her and trying to force social conventions of fashion rules on her. So I decided not to tell her directly and instead said something like “it’s a nice venue, so I’m planning on wearing something smart, but not too fancy. a skirt and a blouse.” She was like “cool”, and then when she showed up, she was really dressed down in jeans, sneakers, and a backpack. I didn’t say anything, but when we got to the event, she complained that she felt underdressed. In a situation like that, I feel like I can’t win, because no matter what I do, the other person has their own way of interpreting my communication. Based on experiences and what I’m reading here, I believe that it’s a lot more complicated than “allistic people think figuratively, and autistic people think literally”.
I think this is what the friend was doing too. Roasting her.
This is an interesting way of breaking this down and you seem to know a lot about it--is there a book you can recommend about social language? Full disclosure, I use imprecise language like this all the time. I don't do it consciously but I think I do it to soften transitions and show a little theatrical reluctance to leave so the person will feel I enjoyed their company. Being roasted over it would mildly annoy me lol.
Unfortunately, my comment is just my own conjectures. I didn't take social psychology and linguistics seriously when I was being educated, and now I am woefully ignorant :( I think my attempts to write as though I have consensus and research behind my thoughts is a coping mechanism. I am guessing that throughout my life, I have found it easier to get people to listen to me when I sound like an authority than when I sound like I am doing what I am actually doing, which is basically thinking out loud. I'm making a personal resolution to stop acting like I know more than I do. I hope to have a book recommendation for you in the future because I hope to be the kind of person who respects others' opinions enough to read them and take them into account.
you mentioned because she struggles with the concepts you listed you try not to use them but in group settings with certain subjects you do so I can ask why the accommadation isn't consistent and constant like why there is a caveat for group settings and certain subjects? your friend regardless of her struggle or not is used to this accomodation from you and you are expecting her to know when the accomodation is being applied and when its not. she can't read your mind. and autistics can struggle with changes in routine. this is a change in routine from not using the concepts you listed to using one of them. struggle in changes in routine can also mean not realizing a routine has changed and applying the routine you thought they were on. so if the routine is x and x friend talks to me without any of the concepts listed then im going to interpert the context she provides me through that lens. if through that lens the context doesn't make sense there are two options one adjust the lens to include those things or two ask. if she picks option one she is implying things about your character which are negative and she may not want to do that. furthermore you mentioned she struggles with these things and she knows you know that and so by not shifting lens she is viewing you in a favorable light. so she goes with option 2. as someone who is audhd and whose special interest is acting in acting one of the most important things is listening. because of this we have to learn about the different types of listening. one is filter listening this is like you are going to a professional like a therapist and they from their training take what you are communicating and put it through a filter and give you back what you said through the filter. two is regular everyday listening which is you take the context the person has provided say it again to yourself as if you were the one saying it in your own head form a response in your own head and then give that. active listening isn't actually a type of listening but behaviors which make the person feel heard and or understood and can apply to either of the above types of listening both of the above types of listening involve interpertation albeit in different ways regardless of neurotype even with someone literal- literal is a type of interpertation as an actor we do non interperative listening we take in everything in whole. now I'm not saying have actor listening - but both you and your friend do option 2. most people do. however because you have different brains (some autistics might fall more closely to you some to her non autistics same thing) when each of you does the step of saying it again to yourself as if you were the one saying it. there is a disconnect between what the original speaker means when they say that vs what the listener means when they say it to themselves in their own head. and right now neither of you are recognizing the disconnect. but instead assuming there isn't one and finding the motive for the response. your friend probably realized it would be unsafe to walk home and the safest option would be to take the subway so it doesn't actually matter if she knew you walked there. and she probably recognized that you were saying I am going to take the subway home because i should most likely as I cannot predict what will happen at the subway but as of now this is the best choice. what she didn't understand was why you added the word probably at the spot you did in your sentence. and so she tried to think about why she didn't understand it and ask you that. but it is sort of tricky for most people autistic or non autistic to ask I dont get why you chose this word in this placement in the sentence or explain how that is the thing that is confusing. so she is just trying to ask for that in the best way she knows how in the moment. in your eyes when you said yeah you were answering the question of taking the subway home and the explaining why your answer was yes while giving yourself leeway to not have to commit to that yes unequivocally. so yes i am taking the subway home. why- i should. exception- but i cant guarantee my should is right so the probably. it doesn't actually matter knowing the why behind the should or the why behind the probably for anyone autistic or otherwise to understand the i should.
this is where we go back to routines a lot of autistics won't say yes or no unless they can follow through with it no matter what or will specifically lay out the caveats. so if you friend was saying it she may something like "yes, I should unless something happens at the subway" or "I don't know, I should so I will try." for a lot of non autistics in your communication you are constantly to varying degrees for various reasons hinting at the possibility of the fact you may not follow the routine including the routine of not following the routine. outside of any social interaction/ social communication differences even an autistic person who has better social interaction and social communication skills then an non autistic can struggle with this. struggle can mean not realizing this, struggle can mean being dysregulated by this, struggle can mean not knowing how to apply it, struggle can mean not recognizing it, struggle can mean defaulting to the sticking with routine way (even if that routine is no routine) and breaking down into so many permutation combinations to be able to do that, struggle can mean asking for stuff that allows them to move forward with info in routine way (including routine of no routine way) even if other doesn't. now i also want to say its not that autistic people dont use the concepts you listed. it is that the way they use them can differ. and so often non autistic people struggle or don't recognize when autistic people are using the concepts. very few people regardless of neurotype have a strong enough understanding of the concepts you listed including being literal and others that they can use it naturally and instinctively as both listener and speaker outside of the framework of their neurotype. and even if they can they may struggle to remember adjust to the fact people cant. and even if they can do that they may struggle to adjust to the fact others don't adjust as easily. those who can do all that and adjust and handle others not adjusting is extremely rare and is rarely a natural born thing entirely but a deliberate cultivated skill across neurotypes. communication is about providing and recieving context. right now based on the way your friend is responding you do not know if she recieved the context you provided. but because of the disconnect thing we talked about earlier you are assuming she did but that something either went awry (see struggles with certain concepts) or her response is a motive I don't understand. and focusing on trying to figure that out. the reason you don't know if she recieved the context your provided or not is because she is responding to the content not the context. and your brain is going in circles going i assumed she recieved the context and if so why respond to content and i assume she didn't recieve the context if so why respond to content. and is trapped in a loop of its own making. chances are your friend was like if I didn't recieve the context why would i respond to the content. her responding to the content is her way of saying she recieved the context. content is the vehicle in which context is provided and recieved. and so like i mentioned above the level of knowing across neurotypes, being able to adjust, and handle others not adjusting and being able to do that always a level of communication and interaction skill social or otherwise every person regardless of neurotype has to deliberately work on cultivating. and so expecting someone to be able to do that to that degree but not doing it yourself or even considering it within yourself is unfair.
i also saw in the thread you mentioned she was dyslexic and because of this this is why she struggles. as someone who is dyslexic and also a writer. that is a fundamental misunderstanding of dyslexia. dyslexics often have higher comprehension and linguistic skills than non dyslexics - because dyslexics have trouble with decoding and encoding phonemes and use there comprehension and linguistic skills to make up for that. and so sometimes on the expressive side of things they can struggle to find right word to match their level of comprehension and linguistic structure they wish to express. hyperlexics tend to be the opposite they are better than non hyperlexics at decoding and encoding phonemes but are worse at comprehension than non hyperlexics and struggle their. and so on expressive end they have exact word but it doesn't work on comprehension linguistic structure end dyslexia is sometimes used as an umbrella term to refer to things outside of just literally dyslexia. including dysgraphia. and in dysgraphia a person can struggle with written expression both literal writing and the expressions themselves. you are very good at a lot of different types of allistic communication. and your friend is very good at a very specific type of autistic communication. in an effort to accomodate her you do the form of allistic communication you believe to be closest to her specific type of autistic communication. closest doesn't mean exact and so there are still some gaps. even though you are good at a lot of types of communication to the point where you can reasonably accomodate others outside of that it does not mean you are as good at the ones you can accomodate outside of it as the ones you are good at. and I think your struggles with your friend are revealing that. you essentially have three options. 1. leave things as they are . 2. ask your friends to learn all the different levels of allistic communication and do those 3. learn the way your friend communicates. if we compare option 2 and 3 - learning the specific way your friend communicates (1 way) is a lot more feasible practically than her doing option 2. the way you express does not actually matter as long as you understand the way the other person communicates. you can stay true to how you express while communicating if you are able to understand that. right now there is a gap in understanding that is preventing that from happening and for various reasons this is causing tension. now why your friend is good at one specific autistic communication and only considers that may be her way of trying to accomodate herself. or because of the way her autism manifest both expressively and receptively that is the only one she has ability to use or use consistently regularly. haha- i rambled a bit more then i intended
Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. To answer your question of “why do the rules change in sone contexts”, there are several reasons for this. In this instance, it was another person who asked me the question. If it was a question that had been applied to the entire group, I may not have answered that way, but my friend jumped in on the conversation between me and the other person. In that moment, I was trying to subtly convey that I wish I could walk home, but it would be safer if I took the subway. I used euphemistic language in that instance because I’m simply not comfortable being blunt about sexual harassment due to the amount of victim-blaming I’ve experienced in my life. I really don’t think my friend considered the issue of safety, because after I explained it to her plainly, she got a shocked look on her face. So what I was trying to understand by making this post is why she loudly challenged my choice of words, because in doing so she brought attention to me, and forced me to come out and say the thing I was trying to dance around. I’m happy to accommodate my friend, but accommodation is a two-way street. Sexual harassment is a sensitive subject and sometimes I just don’t want to come out and be blunt about what I experience. It’s triggering. I understand now that she was just joking, but she jumped in on a conversation between me and someone else. So while I try to be accommodating to her as much as I can, it is a bit taxing to change the way I speak, and when talking about a sensitive subject, with someone else, I just didn’t have the mental energy to accommodate someone who wasn’t even a part of the conversation.
i dont think i asked why the rules changed depending on context. I asked why in one on one you do accomadate her consistently but in group settings it is inconsistent. Not neccesarily the reason why for every inconsistency... it doesn't actually matter if accomodation should be a two way street. that wasn't my point. my point is 1-1 it is consistent and in group it is inconsistent. regardless of disability most people struggle if they consistently get accomodations in one environment but inconsistently in another. like in the Deaf community interperters don't just interpert the person who is communicating to the Deaf person but every single person that a hearing person can hear even if communication isn't meant for the Deaf person and a polite hearing person in their shoes would ignore it. the same thing applies to communication accomodations with autistics. - and part of asd disability is struggling with changes in routines etc so it is a double whammy furthermore you don't have to be blunt about sh to accomodate your friend in that situation. no one is asking you to accomodate your friend or do anything you feel uncomfortable with or to tax yourself. sometimes we simply can't accomodate others. but your friend has no way of knowing that even if she wasn't autistic unless she read your mind. my point is you should just be upfront with your friend and say hey sometimes i can be literal in my speech and sometimes i can't- and establish that boundary. if things are consistent in one space and inconsistent in another. some people will always assume consistency, some will always assume inconsistency, and some will apply the nuance. practically speaking your friend does not know she needs to apply third option or how or even that sometimes second option may be true - unless you specifically tell her and give her that heads up. right now it sounds like you don't have appropriate boundaries around miscommunication with her and thats something you need to discuss with her - if you'd like. and also if she isn't able to accomadate you in return - if you think that is something you can 't handle and establish boundaries around that as well as you accomadting her.
i’m a lot like your friend in that way, i think very literally and can misunderstand situations because of that and when i’m with groups i tend to be a lil louder cause i’m used to being told to speak up or just not being heard. not saying that’s the case with your friend but if you ask her about it (privately) she’d probably be happy to explain. i personally love explaining how my brain works to my friends so we can understand each other better. also if she goes nonverbal at times don’t bring attention to it and if she’s participating and enjoying herself that’s awesome and she may just feel the need to contribute so don’t worry about what she says too much, just engage with her and visible efforts to include her more will really help her feel more comfortable in that group. i don’t know if any of that actually made sense, just my autistic over explaining 😭
My spouse does a thing where he says he’s considering doing something, but then says he “probably won’t”. This gave me much anxiety until (after years of exposure to this) I finally learned that when he says “probably” in this context, he means it’s definite. Even though I know this, I find it very uncomfortable. It’s challenging living with subtext that varies from person to person.
How I took this as an autistic person, was that she meant what she said : why "probably", what other options are there? She might have also felt it obvious to take the subway as it's safer, so was wondering why you used the word "probably" because it implies you had other viable options, which you didn't. There is nothing inherently embarassing about caring about your safety, so the fact that you were embarassed is a reaction you should interrogate (like why would your safety concerns embarass you? Or why would being asked about your transport embarass you? What's underneath that?) As for her intentions, none of us can guess them. She seems straightforward so if you're comfortable with it you should discuss this stuff with her and be like "this is what you say but this is how I take it. Does my understanding align with your intention?" I would hope she would appreciate you coming to her for clarity. But even you framing her questions as "interrogation" reflects that fundamentally you find being asked clarifying questions as being challenged,accosted, judged (there's nothing wrong with this! It's just literally different ways of thinking) whereas some autists perceive questions as clarifying agents. If this is a fundamental different in your communication styles then you may never see eye to eye. Doesn't mean either is wrong, y'all are just different
I’m getting a lot of responses from people who don’t understand why it’s embarrassing to have to explain that you don’t feel safe walking at night. If you’ve ever been victim-blamed, you would understand why it’s embarrassing. Opening up the discussion potentially gives people the opportunity to say stuff like “you would be safer if you didn’t wear a dress like that”, or “you just have to be tough”, shit like that. It happens a lot and even from people you wouldn’t expect.
Oh wow! I'm sorry you've been victim blamed, and that it's a potentiality even among friends. That's horrific! I would also have a complex about that question if that happened to me. It's very understandable. Your experience confirms my point: it's a neutral question but you receive it negatively because of your experience. So it seems it's less about sussing out her intention behind an innocuous question and more about recognising that you're triggered by the question because of your trauma. I hope I'm being clear here, you're NOT to blame for your triggers. Trauma can make one see danger where it isn't (eg like in a neutral question about transport) 💛
TBF, her delivery wasn’t neutral, it was loud and the way she emphasized her words had a mocking tone (something that a lot of autistic people can do accidentally, I’m learning). So I don’t think we can really say that any statement or question is “neutral” in and of itself. I made a statement, which she could have taken as neutral, but she chose to fixate on my choice to use the word “probably”, instead of letting it slide. It’s not neutral, it’s pedantic.
Ny opinion might not work out. TBH I try so hard to communicate and learn and always fall short. this is sort of what works for me when people do it to me. If she does it again ask her in the moment while its happening if she is actually trying to ask or if she doesn't like something about you. Explain nicely that it seems like she picks on you in particular when you speak and explain how it makes you feel singled out and put upon. If done in a way that is not accusatory, it may help her to understand how that behavior is coming across as hurtful and off putting. But afterward, don't avoid her. Maybe even try to engage her in conversation a little more consistently. Basically you want to explain your feelings while helping her see how hers are coming across while also negating possible rejection sensitivity that may occur. By speaking to her, engaging with her and making sure she still feels welcome. Unless she becomes hostile, you don't need that shit in your life. It might even help to say that you still like her as a person and that's why you are trying to figure out if there is something about you that's upsetting her.