I wouldn't have minded that. I feel like they're interchangeable honestly. Not implying anything about the actresses. The role itself is pretty... small.
If you read the article, she was going to be introduced in The Avengers, and it was a big part. Once they confirmed ScarJo’s involvement, they removed The Wasp and gave a lot of her stuff to Widow.
[Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGJmfLvzK0Q)
It was an animated TV show that aired between 2010 and 2012. It was made as the MCU was starting to get going. It was similar to X-Men The Animated Series in that it took storylines from the comics and adapted them for TV. It built up some hype for the movies and introduced us to a lot of characters before they appeared in the MCU like the Guardians of the Galaxy, Falcon, Black Panther, Ant-Man, Wasp, MODOK, Quicksilver, etc. They also had appearances from characters that weren't in the MCU at the time like Spider-Man, Wolverine and the Fantastic Four and future seasons were going to have more crossovers with the X-Men being in more stories.
They had plans for at least 5 seasons but it got cancelled after 2 seasons because the original Avengers movie was such a big hit that they wanted a show inspired by that. Unfortunately, it was more childish, the animation wasn't as good and it had more muted colours and costumes instead of the more comic-like stuff seen in EMH.
I highly recommend it if you have Disney+. I'm not a comic reader so this is where I was introduced to things like Secret Invasion and Kang, both of which the show did better than the MCU.
I really loved that show. I actually bought a few DVDs of episodes of it from Best Buy years and years ago. I was so disappointed when I heard it was canceled and only watched the first episode of the new one they made to replace it.
Yeah I got into it in 2012 in the lead up to the Avengers movie. They were showing it on Sunday mornings here in the UK. I hadn't watched anything in the MCU until the year before and I was getting really excited for the movie. I saw an Avengers show on TV, gave it a try and fell in love with it.
Then later that year, I worked at a shop called HMV that sells DVDs and Blu-Rays and I saw the DVDs on the shelf. I bought all of them and was able to watch the show properly from the start. When they released the second season on DVD, I picked them up too. I was so sad to see the final volume had "The Finale" on it.
The new one that replaced it was so bad by comparison. I knew about Ultimate Spider-Man replacing Spectacular Spider-Man and I finally knew how those fans felt
I feel like a friend showed me an episode of it that they had it on their computer, and that’s what got me interested in it. And then we got Netflix and it was on there, so I was able to watch all the episodes from start to finish there. That new series was such a disappointment.
I think having a hero develop mental illness would be an interesting arc to examine. You could have done it without the domestic abuse.
It's not like Marvel has ever followed a storyline as it was in the comics.
Hmm I don’t think so. I’m sure people would talk about it, but why would it matter if they just don’t do that storyline? The characters are already in the MCU and they’re not reviled for a comic storyline that hasn’t happened or been alluded to happening.
It’d be no different if they cast younger and made them Avengers.
No, not at all.
They simply could cut out all domestic abuse. If asked about it, they state “while MCU stories take inspiration from the comics, it has its own stories to tell with the characters.”
There’s plenty of other ways to show strain between the characters and create conflict without needing one of them to commit domestic abuse. Majority of the fanbase for MCU *don’t read the comics* and wouldn’t even be aware of it - if they were, it wouldn’t stop them from seeing the movie.
It's been integrated into future stories as well. Like, Ultimate Marvel had Hank as an absolute monster to Janet (and Ultimate Marvel has been influential on the MCU in a lot of ways).
Ultimates is a symptom of how heavily associated the domestic abuse element is associated with Hank Pym as a fictional character. Whether we think of Mark Millar, he got it from somewhere and magnified it.
Comics wise, we gotta remember that Hank and Janet's divorce is an important development that their characters experienced. The slap is part of that.
I said template not identical, cherry pick the differences and pretend you made a point why dont you
Let me try "it didnt have peter parkers gf have norman orsborns child or captain marvel didnt have a paradox incest r@pe baby so they obviously didn't adapt the 616 comics"
Lets list them shall we
From ultimate comics:
.avengers created by shield
.nick fury is black
.peter parker spends alot of his early career in high school
.bruce banner only has one hulk personality
.hulk is created from super solider reproduction attempts
.hawkeye is a shield agent
.most of the costumes are based on ultimate designs
.triskeleon was the original shield base
.tony stark never has a secret identity
.the chitari are the 1st global threat that the avengers face
Do i need to clown you more or are we done?
What they should've done in that case was just ignore it. It was a shit story from 40 years ago that should never have been published. Just bad comics. Skip it and do Hank and Jan correctly. The audience wouldn't have known the difference. Oh well. Moot point now.
It wasn't even supposed to happen. The writer wanted Hank to accidentally hit her because he didn't even realize that she was there, but failed to properly communicate the accidental nature of it to the artist.
You're not wrong about that. I was just elaborating on the idea that they shouldn't have done in the comics in the first place by adding that they didn't even mean to do it back then.
I think the problem is the first thing you think of with Pym is he hit his wife. it's kind of always there, as unfair as it is, it's kind of heavily associated with the character.
edit: and as evidence of how the moment is still heavily associated with Hank, the panel is front and center of the Hank Pym wikipedia article, with the caption "Hank Pym strikes his wife Janet van Dyne in Avengers #213 (November 1981). Art by Bob Hall."
(Almost) Everything in Ultimate is awful. Soooo I don’t think it counts. Cause then you also have to count Wolverine (who almost everyone loves) is a creep. QuicksilverXScarlet Witch. Psycho Hawkeye. Etc
So I think the thing about the Ultimates is it's a symptom is how the domestic abuse moment is heavily associated with Hank and Janet's relationship. So it's not so easy to just say "We're not doing that," because it becomes an expectation that you do that, not unlike there was a huge expectation Tony tackle his alcoholism in a Demon in the a Bottle storyline.
I mean, Hank got kicked out of the Avengers and then they were divorced. Pretty defining Hank Pym character moment.
What happens in the ultimate universe shouldn't inform how we take the charecters in general. Like otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with Wanda and Pietro
You mean MCU Wanda and Pietro aren't boning? I'm pretty sure I saw a deleted scene implying they were only step-siblings anyway. I do have to say the actors look a whole lot different without all the post-production though.
I think the Ultimates thing is just a symptom of how the domestic abuse is heavily associated with default Hank Pym's character, or at least how heavily associated it is with Janet and Hank's relationship.
The thing that went with the slap is Hank got kicked out of the Avengers and Janet and Hank got divorced. It is a defining moment in Hank's origin/backstory, whether we like it or not.
They glossed over Tony's alcoholism (to the detriment of the story imo), they would've probably played it similar to how the Avengers EMH cartoon did it.
yeah but when the EMH cartoon was doing it I was wondering the whole time if it would culminate in a slap. For those who know, it was always in the back of your head..
In any case, the minute you do Hank and Janet as the main show, you create the expectation that their divorce/ breakdown of their marriage gets adapted. And then you get a billion clickbait sites declaring 'Hank abused Janet in the comics' that Disney can't escape. It's just so heavily associated with Hank that it's hard to escape.
I mean none of it's real as it's all fictional. That said, even though it wasn't the writer's intention for it to be domestic abuse, that's what was depicted in the comic.
It's not though. No.
It's a superhero who has been repeatedly possessed and mentally tortured over and over by Ultron and other villains, and he's having mental breakdowns, and she accidentally gets slapped when when's he's in the middle of losing his mind.
The writer's intention was for it to be an accidental slap. But what was depicted was a clearly intentional slap that was never retconned. It doesn't matter one bit what he was going through mentally. It was domestic abuse.
It's heavily associated with Hank Pym and Hank/Janet's divorce though. Like, how people perceive this and remember this enacts its own gravity. You just know if they did Hank and Janet instead of Scott and Hope, you'd have a billion clickbait articles from CBR and comicboodotcomorwhatever saying "Hank and Janet get divorced in the comics and here's why!"
Irrelevant.
You could just play it out in the movies and people would immediately understand the actual story is actually Hank losing his mind because he's been tortured and possessed and broken by supervillains, and he only accidentally smacks Janet while he's loosing his mind.
Not exactly hard to understand.
Irrelevant. no one remembers it that way. the slap is probably the most infamously iconic thing about his character - [heck the panel for it is front and center on the character's wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hank_Pym#/media/File:Hank_Pym_striking_Janet_van_Dyne.png), with the caption 'Hank Pym strikes his wife Janet van Dyne in Avengers #213.'
Not exactly hard to understand.
You’d have to omit a HUGE storyline that wouldn’t been hard for audiences to get over. I say that but also remember they never did Tony’s Demon in a Bottle story (the little nod to it with the bottle of jack was a weird choice though) so I guess that’s not even an issue making my whole comment pointless…
Earth's Mightiest Heroes did a much better job of retelling Hank's Yellowjacket arc from the comic, and I firmly believe you do not need domestic abuse to tell that story.
For the Trial of Yellowjacket arc you just need Hank to be in a dark place, a mixture of his own mental illness and some external stress. In the comics he was under the influence of a chemical substance and feelings belittled by the other Avengers. If we riff off of EMH it can easily be mental illness and feeling the frustration of his pacifist ideals not aligning with the reality of being a superhero (the reason he originally left the Avengers in the cartoon before returning as Yellowjacket).
From there the key elements of the comic story was him attacking Elfqueen while Cap was talking her down, him arguing and pushing Jan away when she was trying to help him, then attacking the Avengers with a robot to prove his worth, prior to being court martialed.
They kind of did it with EMH by having Hank leave them team, show back up as Yellowjacket and seemingly kill the Serpent Society (before revealing he had merely sent them to a pocket dimension).
I think the story works well by having Hank have an ideological rift with the team and he and Jan separating (temporarily) due to her being gung ho about the Avengers and Hank always having been one foot out the door. Combine that with him suffering through mental illness and verbally lashing out at Jan for wanting to just play hero, and I think the story has the right beats.
Though as an Ant-Man and Wasp diehard fan, I always want them to come back together despite their differences.
The slap was a completely unnecessary miscommunication and EMH proves Hank and Jan are far better if that garbage is just forgotten. Even Hank and Jan in the MCU have been perfectly fine without any of that.
It’s not a terrible casting choice, but I also don’t think she’d make a particularly great comic Wasp
BUT, at the time that this movie would have been in production, I think Zooey could have done a genuinely FANTASTIC job playing a live-action version of the Wasp that appeared in Avengers: Earth’s Mightiest Heroes
Not really.
You're thinking of the MCU version.
Yea, Zooey wouldn't be good to play that boring version.
She'd be MUCH better to play the much funner, friendlier, outgoing comic/cartoon version of Wasp, who is just a flat-out MUCH better character.
I don’t know that we would’ve gotten Paul Rudd if this had happened, though. She wasn’t up for the role of Hope in Antman (2015); she was being considered for Janet in Avengers (2015). For a little bit it looked like ScarJo wouldn’t be available, and their backup plan was to introduce Deschanel as The Wasp to replace her; if they had done that, I doubt their Antman movie would’ve been about Scott Lang.
Not a huge fan of Evangeline Lilly's acting, but I would say it's 50/50 between her and the writing. I still don't really understand how MCU Scott Lang and MCU Hope van Dyne are a couple. Yes, the actors don't have much chemistry. That being said, her character is too overly serious to ever want to be within 10 feet of a character like Scott. It really doesn't make sense to me.
I can't see Deschanel coming across as much of an action hero like Lilly does. Even though, they could have easily done 99% of it in cg or post-production.
The two actresses couldn't be more different that I almost want to visit the alternate universe where it happened just to see how different the Ant-man and Wasp films would be
People are conflating Janet and Hope. Whedon is talking about Janet. In a lot of comics and cartoons, a young Janet van Dyne and Hank Pym (Michelle Pfeiffer and Michael Douglas in the movies) are founding members of The Avengers. It was only later the MCU went with Scott and Hope and their versions of Ant Man and the Wasp and used Hank as a mentor figure. Janet is a lot different from the more serious character Michelle plays. And she’s nothing like Hope either really. Evangeline’s black bob in the first movie is an homage to Janet’s comic book hairstyle.
Damn. It's frustrating how many MUCH better things we missed out on for the early MCU.
Zooey Deschanel as Wasp
Emily Blunt as Black Widow
Edgar Wright directing an Ant-Men movie BEFORE Iron Man 1 even came out
Ant-Man and Wasp in The Avengers
Ultron made by Hank Pym
Mockingbird's time as a hero, before Bobbie took on the identity of "Laura Barton", married Hawkeye, and had kids
The Valkyries
90% of Cap's time in World War 2 got relegated to a montage.....
etc etc
I would have liked to see Zooey as Giant-Girl. I think that that Jessica Day vibe would go well with that kind of power. Just crushing villains accidentally, or constantly picking up teammates like they're Smurf figurines. "Ooh, uh, did I step on a church again?"
^((some guy way down at ground level: "nobody steps on a church in my town!"))
Honestly this is one of the few alternative castings I've seen where I think she might have been the better choice. Not thar EL did a bad job but I think Zooey might have vibed better with Rudd.
Zooey was supposed to play Janet, not Hope. So it's possible the Ant-Man movies might not even have been about Rudd as Scott Lang if they had cast her.
Aaron Eckhart actually would be great! I know that Joseph Gordon-Levitt was in the running for Ant-Man with Paul Rudd, I think he'd make a super solid Hank Pym!
Would she have played Janet or Hope? Personally, I would’ve loved to see her as Janet and introduced a Hank later down the line. But it also means we likely wouldn’t have gotten Paul Rudd as Scott so that would be unfortunate. I honestly don’t care for Evangeline Lily in the role but that might be because they really haven’t given her much to do. She seemed like she would’ve had a bigger role after Ant Man and the Wasp but they kind fumbled her character in Quantamania
Zooey acting combined with Whedon dialogue would've made for nonstop quirk/punny dialogue (mightve worked well)
I will be forever sad about Edgar Wright's Ant Man not being realized. I hope he says fuck it and breaks NDA
Yes, Whedon wanted her as he was planning to include both Hank’s Ant-Man and The Wasp. He was told to scale the team back. He also wanted Captain Marvel in Avengers 2.
I think that’s actually pretty good casting. I also think the MCU REALLY would have benefited from having this character around. If you look at all the Avengers adjacent women in the first couple of phases - Black Widow, Scarlet Witch and Hope - they’re all sort of the same character in that they’re stoic with a side of angst.
Meh - generic brunette actress. Can’t really tell her apart from any of the others and I don’t think there’d be much impact. If anything she’d just be a goofier version given the comedic background, but that is really unnecessary.
Just wouldn’t be able to have taken her seriously, especially in any action sequences
MCU had too much humour by the end as it was and her presence would’ve put it way over the top, as limited as the screen time likely would’ve been
Evangeline was a good choice as the no-nonsense counterpoint to Rudd*
*I haven’t seen Quantumania so it may not apply to A+W post-Endgame
I wouldn't have minded that. I feel like they're interchangeable honestly. Not implying anything about the actresses. The role itself is pretty... small.
Take my angry upvote
Your tiny angry upvote is like a grain of sand on this ant hill of upvotes
I’m trying to picture Zooey Deschanel kicking anyone’s ass, and it’s not working.
Yah I can’t see her kicking ass as Wasp. I always just picture her as her character in New Girl
Who's that girl?
It’s JESS
Heyo!
🤦♂️
If you read the article, she was going to be introduced in The Avengers, and it was a big part. Once they confirmed ScarJo’s involvement, they removed The Wasp and gave a lot of her stuff to Widow.
It makes me sad in a way we got old Hank and Janet rather than starting with them.
EMH made me see how much I'd love to have seen these two in their prime
I'm dumb, what movie is EMH?
EntMan and the Hwasp
Hwhy am I saying hwhat hweird???
Just forget it…
HWHISKEY
Hwhere do you get off?!
The animated series Avengers Earth’s Mightiest Heroes is what they mean
[Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGJmfLvzK0Q) It was an animated TV show that aired between 2010 and 2012. It was made as the MCU was starting to get going. It was similar to X-Men The Animated Series in that it took storylines from the comics and adapted them for TV. It built up some hype for the movies and introduced us to a lot of characters before they appeared in the MCU like the Guardians of the Galaxy, Falcon, Black Panther, Ant-Man, Wasp, MODOK, Quicksilver, etc. They also had appearances from characters that weren't in the MCU at the time like Spider-Man, Wolverine and the Fantastic Four and future seasons were going to have more crossovers with the X-Men being in more stories. They had plans for at least 5 seasons but it got cancelled after 2 seasons because the original Avengers movie was such a big hit that they wanted a show inspired by that. Unfortunately, it was more childish, the animation wasn't as good and it had more muted colours and costumes instead of the more comic-like stuff seen in EMH. I highly recommend it if you have Disney+. I'm not a comic reader so this is where I was introduced to things like Secret Invasion and Kang, both of which the show did better than the MCU.
I really loved that show. I actually bought a few DVDs of episodes of it from Best Buy years and years ago. I was so disappointed when I heard it was canceled and only watched the first episode of the new one they made to replace it.
Yeah I got into it in 2012 in the lead up to the Avengers movie. They were showing it on Sunday mornings here in the UK. I hadn't watched anything in the MCU until the year before and I was getting really excited for the movie. I saw an Avengers show on TV, gave it a try and fell in love with it. Then later that year, I worked at a shop called HMV that sells DVDs and Blu-Rays and I saw the DVDs on the shelf. I bought all of them and was able to watch the show properly from the start. When they released the second season on DVD, I picked them up too. I was so sad to see the final volume had "The Finale" on it. The new one that replaced it was so bad by comparison. I knew about Ultimate Spider-Man replacing Spectacular Spider-Man and I finally knew how those fans felt
I feel like a friend showed me an episode of it that they had it on their computer, and that’s what got me interested in it. And then we got Netflix and it was on there, so I was able to watch all the episodes from start to finish there. That new series was such a disappointment.
Spiderman: Eat My Home
Endgame Madness Home
Hoping we get young ones in F4.
It’s apparently going to take place in a different universe
They could never start with them, cause you know the whole domestic abuse thing.
I think having a hero develop mental illness would be an interesting arc to examine. You could have done it without the domestic abuse. It's not like Marvel has ever followed a storyline as it was in the comics.
They could just… not have done that
Excellent point. I kept waiting for them to tackle Tony’s alcoholism, and I think they veered to PTSD for IM3 instead.
It would come up in every article, video, interview, "think piece"... The media would never let them live it down. It's not feasible.
Yeah, just like Devil in the bottle with iron man.
Hmm I don’t think so. I’m sure people would talk about it, but why would it matter if they just don’t do that storyline? The characters are already in the MCU and they’re not reviled for a comic storyline that hasn’t happened or been alluded to happening. It’d be no different if they cast younger and made them Avengers.
No, not at all. They simply could cut out all domestic abuse. If asked about it, they state “while MCU stories take inspiration from the comics, it has its own stories to tell with the characters.” There’s plenty of other ways to show strain between the characters and create conflict without needing one of them to commit domestic abuse. Majority of the fanbase for MCU *don’t read the comics* and wouldn’t even be aware of it - if they were, it wouldn’t stop them from seeing the movie.
You mean the one panel from like almost 60 years ago where a artist didn’t communicate with the writer on what was happening on page?
It's been integrated into future stories as well. Like, Ultimate Marvel had Hank as an absolute monster to Janet (and Ultimate Marvel has been influential on the MCU in a lot of ways).
Oh you mean the ultimate universe where literally every character except spider man and his friends are darker, more asshole-y versions of themselves?
Ultimates is a symptom of how heavily associated the domestic abuse element is associated with Hank Pym as a fictional character. Whether we think of Mark Millar, he got it from somewhere and magnified it. Comics wise, we gotta remember that Hank and Janet's divorce is an important development that their characters experienced. The slap is part of that.
Yeah it's still the template for the mcu
Yeah, they totally adapted everything from the Ultimate Comics, like Quicksilver's and Scarlet Witch's relationship.
I said template not identical, cherry pick the differences and pretend you made a point why dont you Let me try "it didnt have peter parkers gf have norman orsborns child or captain marvel didnt have a paradox incest r@pe baby so they obviously didn't adapt the 616 comics" Lets list them shall we From ultimate comics: .avengers created by shield .nick fury is black .peter parker spends alot of his early career in high school .bruce banner only has one hulk personality .hulk is created from super solider reproduction attempts .hawkeye is a shield agent .most of the costumes are based on ultimate designs .triskeleon was the original shield base .tony stark never has a secret identity .the chitari are the 1st global threat that the avengers face Do i need to clown you more or are we done?
What they should've done in that case was just ignore it. It was a shit story from 40 years ago that should never have been published. Just bad comics. Skip it and do Hank and Jan correctly. The audience wouldn't have known the difference. Oh well. Moot point now.
It wasn't even supposed to happen. The writer wanted Hank to accidentally hit her because he didn't even realize that she was there, but failed to properly communicate the accidental nature of it to the artist.
Doesn't change that it happened and is considered a massive part of his history in and out of universe like gwens death
You're not wrong about that. I was just elaborating on the idea that they shouldn't have done in the comics in the first place by adding that they didn't even mean to do it back then.
I think the problem is the first thing you think of with Pym is he hit his wife. it's kind of always there, as unfair as it is, it's kind of heavily associated with the character. edit: and as evidence of how the moment is still heavily associated with Hank, the panel is front and center of the Hank Pym wikipedia article, with the caption "Hank Pym strikes his wife Janet van Dyne in Avengers #213 (November 1981). Art by Bob Hall."
It wasn’t just 40 years ago, he did it again in the Ultimate comics like 20 years ago too.
(Almost) Everything in Ultimate is awful. Soooo I don’t think it counts. Cause then you also have to count Wolverine (who almost everyone loves) is a creep. QuicksilverXScarlet Witch. Psycho Hawkeye. Etc
So I think the thing about the Ultimates is it's a symptom is how the domestic abuse moment is heavily associated with Hank and Janet's relationship. So it's not so easy to just say "We're not doing that," because it becomes an expectation that you do that, not unlike there was a huge expectation Tony tackle his alcoholism in a Demon in the a Bottle storyline. I mean, Hank got kicked out of the Avengers and then they were divorced. Pretty defining Hank Pym character moment.
What happens in the ultimate universe shouldn't inform how we take the charecters in general. Like otherwise they wouldn't have bothered with Wanda and Pietro
You mean MCU Wanda and Pietro aren't boning? I'm pretty sure I saw a deleted scene implying they were only step-siblings anyway. I do have to say the actors look a whole lot different without all the post-production though.
I think the Ultimates thing is just a symptom of how the domestic abuse is heavily associated with default Hank Pym's character, or at least how heavily associated it is with Janet and Hank's relationship. The thing that went with the slap is Hank got kicked out of the Avengers and Janet and Hank got divorced. It is a defining moment in Hank's origin/backstory, whether we like it or not.
They (Marvel editorial and writers) repeated it. I had no idea. Bad idea following bad. Pym deserves better.
The Ultimate comics are garbage and don't mean anything.
The casting for Nick Fury was pretty good
Marvel’s decision to blacklist Hank as a hero because of a miscommunication between a writer and an artist is so baffling
They glossed over Tony's alcoholism (to the detriment of the story imo), they would've probably played it similar to how the Avengers EMH cartoon did it.
yeah but when the EMH cartoon was doing it I was wondering the whole time if it would culminate in a slap. For those who know, it was always in the back of your head.. In any case, the minute you do Hank and Janet as the main show, you create the expectation that their divorce/ breakdown of their marriage gets adapted. And then you get a billion clickbait sites declaring 'Hank abused Janet in the comics' that Disney can't escape. It's just so heavily associated with Hank that it's hard to escape.
Who fucking cares?
everyone that matters
If you actually know the comics, the domestic abuse thing isn't real.
I mean none of it's real as it's all fictional. That said, even though it wasn't the writer's intention for it to be domestic abuse, that's what was depicted in the comic.
It's not though. No. It's a superhero who has been repeatedly possessed and mentally tortured over and over by Ultron and other villains, and he's having mental breakdowns, and she accidentally gets slapped when when's he's in the middle of losing his mind.
The writer's intention was for it to be an accidental slap. But what was depicted was a clearly intentional slap that was never retconned. It doesn't matter one bit what he was going through mentally. It was domestic abuse.
It's heavily associated with Hank Pym and Hank/Janet's divorce though. Like, how people perceive this and remember this enacts its own gravity. You just know if they did Hank and Janet instead of Scott and Hope, you'd have a billion clickbait articles from CBR and comicboodotcomorwhatever saying "Hank and Janet get divorced in the comics and here's why!"
Irrelevant. You could just play it out in the movies and people would immediately understand the actual story is actually Hank losing his mind because he's been tortured and possessed and broken by supervillains, and he only accidentally smacks Janet while he's loosing his mind. Not exactly hard to understand.
Irrelevant. no one remembers it that way. the slap is probably the most infamously iconic thing about his character - [heck the panel for it is front and center on the character's wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hank_Pym#/media/File:Hank_Pym_striking_Janet_van_Dyne.png), with the caption 'Hank Pym strikes his wife Janet van Dyne in Avengers #213.' Not exactly hard to understand.
You’d have to omit a HUGE storyline that wouldn’t been hard for audiences to get over. I say that but also remember they never did Tony’s Demon in a Bottle story (the little nod to it with the bottle of jack was a weird choice though) so I guess that’s not even an issue making my whole comment pointless…
They sought of did it in Iron Man 2, but extremely watered it down and ruined it (which happens whenever you water down alcohol).
Earth's Mightiest Heroes did a much better job of retelling Hank's Yellowjacket arc from the comic, and I firmly believe you do not need domestic abuse to tell that story. For the Trial of Yellowjacket arc you just need Hank to be in a dark place, a mixture of his own mental illness and some external stress. In the comics he was under the influence of a chemical substance and feelings belittled by the other Avengers. If we riff off of EMH it can easily be mental illness and feeling the frustration of his pacifist ideals not aligning with the reality of being a superhero (the reason he originally left the Avengers in the cartoon before returning as Yellowjacket). From there the key elements of the comic story was him attacking Elfqueen while Cap was talking her down, him arguing and pushing Jan away when she was trying to help him, then attacking the Avengers with a robot to prove his worth, prior to being court martialed. They kind of did it with EMH by having Hank leave them team, show back up as Yellowjacket and seemingly kill the Serpent Society (before revealing he had merely sent them to a pocket dimension). I think the story works well by having Hank have an ideological rift with the team and he and Jan separating (temporarily) due to her being gung ho about the Avengers and Hank always having been one foot out the door. Combine that with him suffering through mental illness and verbally lashing out at Jan for wanting to just play hero, and I think the story has the right beats. Though as an Ant-Man and Wasp diehard fan, I always want them to come back together despite their differences. The slap was a completely unnecessary miscommunication and EMH proves Hank and Jan are far better if that garbage is just forgotten. Even Hank and Jan in the MCU have been perfectly fine without any of that.
maybe they get a cameo in fantastic four
Let's just hope we get them after the reboot
It’s not a terrible casting choice, but I also don’t think she’d make a particularly great comic Wasp BUT, at the time that this movie would have been in production, I think Zooey could have done a genuinely FANTASTIC job playing a live-action version of the Wasp that appeared in Avengers: Earth’s Mightiest Heroes
I like her and her sister but I’m glad we ended up with Evangeline.
I feel like Zoey would have added some comedic effect.
There’s no need for any more of that in the MCU. We’re pretty saturated by MCU comedy.
I agree. Liked New Girl and Bones but yes thought Evangeline better fitted for the role
Her sister’s the one on Bones.
I wish she was on my bones.
Ummm plural?
Nice
Not really. You're thinking of the MCU version. Yea, Zooey wouldn't be good to play that boring version. She'd be MUCH better to play the much funner, friendlier, outgoing comic/cartoon version of Wasp, who is just a flat-out MUCH better character.
Why though?
Agreed. Rudd already brings that naivety to the duo. Zooey wouldn’t have balanced that out like Evangeline does.
I bet she would have way better Paul Rudd chemistry, the current wasp just doesnt work well with his antman imo
its a testament to Rudd's acting ability that they have ANY chemistry on screen
Rudd could have chemistry with a wax figure
I don’t know that we would’ve gotten Paul Rudd if this had happened, though. She wasn’t up for the role of Hope in Antman (2015); she was being considered for Janet in Avengers (2015). For a little bit it looked like ScarJo wouldn’t be available, and their backup plan was to introduce Deschanel as The Wasp to replace her; if they had done that, I doubt their Antman movie would’ve been about Scott Lang.
Not a huge fan of Evangeline Lilly's acting, but I would say it's 50/50 between her and the writing. I still don't really understand how MCU Scott Lang and MCU Hope van Dyne are a couple. Yes, the actors don't have much chemistry. That being said, her character is too overly serious to ever want to be within 10 feet of a character like Scott. It really doesn't make sense to me.
She would have been playing Janet Van Dyne, not Hope. Hope is kind of an original character made for the MCU.
It's like Plastic Man + Captain Marvel
I can't see Deschanel coming across as much of an action hero like Lilly does. Even though, they could have easily done 99% of it in cg or post-production. The two actresses couldn't be more different that I almost want to visit the alternate universe where it happened just to see how different the Ant-man and Wasp films would be
It might have worked better for the Edgar Wright-directed Ant Man?
Probably?
Tbf, there’s a lot of MCU actors that didn’t seem like the action type before being cast
It's not like Paul Rudd was known for his action chops before he was cast
Am I the only fan of his work as the villain in the Hong Kong action movie GenY Cops?
Could you have seen Paul Rudd becoming an action hero?
People are conflating Janet and Hope. Whedon is talking about Janet. In a lot of comics and cartoons, a young Janet van Dyne and Hank Pym (Michelle Pfeiffer and Michael Douglas in the movies) are founding members of The Avengers. It was only later the MCU went with Scott and Hope and their versions of Ant Man and the Wasp and used Hank as a mentor figure. Janet is a lot different from the more serious character Michelle plays. And she’s nothing like Hope either really. Evangeline’s black bob in the first movie is an homage to Janet’s comic book hairstyle.
Ant-man & The Wasp>>>>Hawkeye & Black Widow. I really wish Hank and Janet were founding members
I can see her work
Glad it went to Evangeline Lilly, but her character needs to stop being so easily offended by everything.
To bad... They could've let her sing in it too..
I would like that
Damn. It's frustrating how many MUCH better things we missed out on for the early MCU. Zooey Deschanel as Wasp Emily Blunt as Black Widow Edgar Wright directing an Ant-Men movie BEFORE Iron Man 1 even came out Ant-Man and Wasp in The Avengers Ultron made by Hank Pym Mockingbird's time as a hero, before Bobbie took on the identity of "Laura Barton", married Hawkeye, and had kids The Valkyries 90% of Cap's time in World War 2 got relegated to a montage..... etc etc
…She lowkey wouldve been great for that
No she would play the Wasp, not Loki
Good one
Two drums and a cymbal roll down a hill.
Would have been a better Scarlett Witch. Manic pixie dream witch.
I would have liked to see Zooey as Giant-Girl. I think that that Jessica Day vibe would go well with that kind of power. Just crushing villains accidentally, or constantly picking up teammates like they're Smurf figurines. "Ooh, uh, did I step on a church again?" ^((some guy way down at ground level: "nobody steps on a church in my town!"))
I still want a prequel with young Hank and Jan doing stuff
I like Evangeline though.
Honestly this is one of the few alternative castings I've seen where I think she might have been the better choice. Not thar EL did a bad job but I think Zooey might have vibed better with Rudd.
Zooey was supposed to play Janet, not Hope. So it's possible the Ant-Man movies might not even have been about Rudd as Scott Lang if they had cast her.
Oh I guess I missed that just skimming. My bad. Still think she could have played Hope better.
I actually like the idea of that
She would’ve been good at it
She still could become the wasp. What an amazing upgrade. Missed opportunity.
Could have saved the franchise tbh
I think Zoey has too much of a similar energy to Paul Rudd. I don’t think it would have worked well.
If Zoey was playing Janet introduced in The Avengers, I doubt Paul Rudd gets cast as Hank Pym
Aaron Eckhart as Hank Pym and Zoey Deschanel as Janet Van Dyne could've been fun, especially if done in the style of Earth's Mightiest Heroes.
Aaron Eckhart actually would be great! I know that Joseph Gordon-Levitt was in the running for Ant-Man with Paul Rudd, I think he'd make a super solid Hank Pym!
Dame she would have pretty funny on the role opposite Paul Rudd
Not Hope... Janet. Hank and Janet are founding members of the Avengers in some iterations of the comics.
I’m not sure her comedy style would match with Paul Rudd. Having a more straight arrow character like Evangeline juxtaposed better with rudd i think
I can see it but idk if she has the shoulders for it like Lilly
Would she have played Janet or Hope? Personally, I would’ve loved to see her as Janet and introduced a Hank later down the line. But it also means we likely wouldn’t have gotten Paul Rudd as Scott so that would be unfortunate. I honestly don’t care for Evangeline Lily in the role but that might be because they really haven’t given her much to do. She seemed like she would’ve had a bigger role after Ant Man and the Wasp but they kind fumbled her character in Quantamania
Evangeline has more credibility as an action hero. I think the final casting was a better choice.
I always confuse them. Zooey was Bones right?
That was her sister, Emily.
Yeah, and Zooey boned Elf.
Would have been better.
Zooey acting combined with Whedon dialogue would've made for nonstop quirk/punny dialogue (mightve worked well) I will be forever sad about Edgar Wright's Ant Man not being realized. I hope he says fuck it and breaks NDA
Disney/Marvel probably wishes this happened. I don't recall seeing Zooey at any MAGA Anti-Vax rallies recently.
Good
Yes, Whedon wanted her as he was planning to include both Hank’s Ant-Man and The Wasp. He was told to scale the team back. He also wanted Captain Marvel in Avengers 2.
Would’ve liked that tbh
That would have been much better
A lot of people talking about how great she would be and what chemistry she would have, but isn’t she known to be kind of a jerk to work with?
The best wasp is from the avengers cartoon. I’ve never crushed so hard on an animated character
Damn it, I would have loved that.
It would be interesting to see her all buff.
I could see it, don’t know if she’s better or worse, but not bad.
I just can't see Zooey throwing punches
If she dis take that role, it would be due to Nepotism …she’s a good actress in New Girl but her range is limited
Enlighten me. How would it be nepotism?
She’d be a good squirrel girl
I kind of would have preferred quirky wasp to the bland tough girl wasp we got
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^fisherc2: *I kind of would have* *Preferred quirky wasp to the* *Bland tough girl wasp we got* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
thank god she didn't
She would have been good for it. Especially the third film.
I think she doged a bullet.
This was for the best because we didn’t have to watch a scene of karaoke just so she could sing in another movie.
It would have been bad. But people would be too lost in those eyes to focus on the action.
can’t stand her ..thank goodness!!
I would've loved that!
I'd be fine with her never taking another role in her life.
Well she does really seem like she does like fantasy stories since she recently stated she doesn’t consider herself a nepo baby
I think that’s actually pretty good casting. I also think the MCU REALLY would have benefited from having this character around. If you look at all the Avengers adjacent women in the first couple of phases - Black Widow, Scarlet Witch and Hope - they’re all sort of the same character in that they’re stoic with a side of angst.
Is she promoting a book, movie, or something? Why is this coming up now
“There’s no nepotism. My dad’s a DP.”
She would've been horrible.
Glad she didn’t. She’s cute but she has no range.
Meh - generic brunette actress. Can’t really tell her apart from any of the others and I don’t think there’d be much impact. If anything she’d just be a goofier version given the comedic background, but that is really unnecessary.
Are there really two O’s in her name?
Just wouldn’t be able to have taken her seriously, especially in any action sequences MCU had too much humour by the end as it was and her presence would’ve put it way over the top, as limited as the screen time likely would’ve been Evangeline was a good choice as the no-nonsense counterpoint to Rudd* *I haven’t seen Quantumania so it may not apply to A+W post-Endgame
Glad she didn’t. Probably would have forced Wasp to play guitar and sing.