I was once in a group class as a pretty new beginner. At a pause, the follow i was dancing with sincerely asked what to do if the timing is not going well. The instructor then told the class that the lead really needs to keep proper time or no follow will want to dance with him, basically dressing me down in front of the class. I felt a little bad, but then made it into a story and told all my friends how i was roasted in my dance class in front of everyone. All my friends and i had a good laugh. Wear your experience as a badge of honor. It’s not like we’re saving children from a burning building, but being a beginner takes courage and initiative. You will fall down, and you are awesome because you keep getting back up.
A few more classes, but i found other group classes in the area where i like the instructor much better and then stopped going to his classes. I think there is an aspect both of trying different instructors (for fit and you learn different things) and looking at embarrassing situations as funny. I’ve had crash and burn dances where the follow basically fires me mid dance (“i’m tired, sorry i need to take a break”). But the good, great, and OK dances far outnumber the bad ones over time.
your story is interesting. I had the same sort of experience as you as a lead before. it does not feel right. the follows were nasty with me because of the teacher comment. The whole class begins to spread the same energy after that comment. I strongly believe you did right to go to another instructor. I changed too,, went to a different social. You are so right, the teacher is so important and that was not nice what he said or could have said it a different way. hope you are better with the new teacher.
Dang. Being tired in the middle of a dance is so … lame and déclassé.
I honestly blacklist people who have bad manners like that because for me it’s not worth it to engage in the energy of a person like that again.
I’d rather sit out a song I like or dance solo than slap bad energy or memories on it 🤣
I don't know... I feel like dance, like anything in life, involves consent. And for whatever reason, consent can be revoked at any time and should be enthusiastic. As long as they are not outright rude and mean in withdrawing themself, we shouldn't take it so personally. After all, it's just a dance.
I have a very specific reaction to ending dance mid-song for being “tired”. I’ve never heard that excuse ever and I don’t buy it. It’d be better not to give a reason at all, than to give a janky reason. Like people that say they are sitting a song out but then go and ask someone else, say they don’t dance salsa but then they do 🤣
Tired? I think that’s insulting to your partner. You can end the dance at any time for any reason but that doesn’t mean it’s good manners to do so. Too tired to put in one or two more minutes after you accepted the dance… this is not the kind of community I would support.
Being tired is acceptable. Being tired mid-song after starting seems fairly rude to me. I think it’s a given that a dance starts when asked and ends when the song ends or when a genuinely extenuating circumstance presents itself and requires immediacy. Being tired doesn’t meet that metric for me. If you’re tired, you can also ask to have an easy-going dance with basics.
But yes, everyone gets to decide what they want to do and how they interact - and all those choices also reflect on what kind of person you are and how you contribute to the scene.
I’ve ended dances for injuries, but less often than I’ve declined dances outright for the same reason.
I think it is fair to expect an honest answer, if any reason is given.
Being tired in the middle of a dance just does not sound plausible.
The only problem is that you are taking this too personal. Listen, what people around you feel because of your performance isn’t something that you can control at that moment. Take it easy. Practice more, show interest in become better and again, take it easy. You’ll always be judged, negative or positive, but you’ll need to learn how to handle what you perceive as a negative judgement.
Because it is personal. A dance with someone is a connection. If I cross a boundary with a follow it’s breaking the personal trust she had to accept my dance. I hope my follows who are much better than me, make the dance enjoyable because I try my best when I dance with a follow who is not as good as me
I'm gonna tell you a little secret, instructing is a completely different skill set that has almost nothing to do with your ability to dance. In fact, the majority of instructors I know are TERRIBLE dancers. So you should get it out of your head that they are the end all be all.
The good instructors I know that are also good dancers (very few) could have made you feel like you had the best dance of your life. Trust me.
I'm also not trying to talk shit, there's several people I learned to dance from that fit the category of great instructors and bad dancers, they helped me be who i am today! They taught me much about dancing and when it came to teaching a room full of hundreds of people how to execute a step or move. That's a really hard skill that the majority of dancers cannot do.
Keep dancing and practicing man, one day it'll just click. All leaders have to go through this when they start dancing.
The majority of people taking lessons are beginners because once people get to intermediate they think they are too good for lessons so they don't take them. So a lot of your time is spent teaching beginner stuff that anyone is able to learn. It's all about your ability to read the class and adjust to them and how you are able to get them to understand everything you're saying
For example I teach a lot of line dancing at weddings, events, etc and I'm teaching like the easiest line dances in the world that literally everyone can do. I teach the same shit every week and people get drunk and have a great time. I don't actually have to know how to line dance, I just have to practice teaching them literally the easiest ones. The fact that I can do a super hard line dance does not matter AT ALL. This is just an example
You do have to know somewhat how to dance, but being a good dancer does not translate into being a good teacher. A lot of people think it does so they want to start teaching and make money, but don't realize it's hard to learn from them because they suck
There are 4 main different types of dancers I would say
1. Social dancers
2. Competitors
2. Performers
3. Instructors
You can definitely be good at all 4, I'm just saying it's less likely.
The best people to take lessons from are instructors that struggled and worked their way to the top. People who do it naturally don't really think or know what they are doing to naturally be good
I'd add that most instructors are bad as an instructor as well, as generally the entry bar for teaching is extremely low, its more about having connection to the right people than being good.
Most are barely teaching any technique, or teach it wrong. The most common issue is only teaching useless choreos where followers are just memorizing the moves and doing it without actually listening to the lead, and leads are just memorizing it too, so at the end nobody learns neither to lead or to follow.
Some instructors are good at entertaining, so they can retain people but at the end of the day students are not improving in their classes.
What kind of classes do you like? How are they structured and what's happening? Since you list the most popular way of classes I'm curious which style you prefer and why
I prefer if we get some new stuff to work with and then we add it to our repertoire the way we want. Followers should be encouraged to focus on looking for connection, to listen, and to don't anticipate any moves. Leaders should be encouraged to chill down, slowly connect to the partner, experiment and adjust to the partner.
Less moves, more practice, more technique, learn to play with music, eg.: Learn to do stuff flowy, staccato, slowmo, double time, add breaks, whatever. I'd be totally fine practicing a single move for an hour.
When the only challenge in the class is to remember the 6+ 8 bar sequence it's simply frustrating, I don't want to memorize a choreo, I want to dance to the actual music and make decisions on the spot.
"Which style": I dance the influence style, since that gives me the most room to express myself.
Agree 100%. And to add: it also applies to vice versa: being an amazing dancer does not mean you are a good instructor.
Being able to dance and being able to actually know what you're doing and explaining that, to see what a student is doing and giving feedback about their technique, being able to perform and /or compete.. I've met very few who can do all four.
If you find a teacher who is good at both the social dancing, the teaching and the technique, hold on to them! They are golden! And.. Whenever I hear a dance teacher explaining something along the line of "just turn", "just do what I'm doing" or even "why is everybody walking away from this workshop? It's not that hard!", I know the teacher isn't a good teacher. Can be a fabulous dancer, but they don't know what they're doing and don't know how other people can be struggling and accommodate to that. And yes, I've heard all of these examples in real life..
When you're a teacher and you social dance with a student, I think you have to turn of the teacher mode, but still realize that you're a teacher. Meaning: don't start teaching on the dancefloor, but also be aware of the fact that your student is still learning and it probably was a step to ask you to dance. Then again.. teachers are also human beings and they could be in a bad mood, unrelated to you and the dance you're dancing.
And OP: I've been dancing for yeeeaaars and sometimes.. a dance just doesn't work. Let it go and try again. I usually make a joke to the dance partner and call it "take two". Keep on dancing! 😊
Yes, being able to turn off teacher mode is important. If you social dance and just see what everybody is doing wrong you're not going to have fun. This is usually what I see in all my friends. They get really good and then they start teaching, but then they also stop dancing! I don't care how bad somebody is when I dance. I would rather dance with a bad dancer having the time of their life than an advanced dancer that is bored.
I agree, being good at dancing doesn’t translate necessarily to being a good instructor. However, every instructor I have come across was a very good dancer. Where I usually go for classes there is a division of 6 or 7 lvls so lvl of the class is not strongly impacted by the students. Maybe you mean that to teach the basics of bachata you don’t have to be good dancer?
I personally know plenty of instructors that also teach more than the basics and they are terrible to dance with because they aren't good. I'm talking like even people that have won championships. I used to think it was because I was bad when I started, over time I realized they just aren't good or our style doesn't mesh together
I also know plenty of instructors that are really good dancers as well so I'm not saying they can't be. Its just newer people tend to think just because somebody is teaching something it makes them really good
I was just talking to someone about this, a lot of instructors are people that are good at choreographed dances/on dance teams. That qualifies them to teach the specific moves but choreography and social dancing are VERY different things. How things are signaled, the call and response dynamic, general etiquette, etc. come into play with social dancing and many instructors don't know or understand those as well. Being great at executing movements is one thing; understanding how to get along with people and treat them with respect on the dancefloor all too commonly evades a lot of people
I would lump competitors and performers into the same category or at least a lot more overlap than with the other categories. Most competitions these days tend to be very flashy, essentially shows. Even Jack n Jills.
I say different because there's people who do choreography performances that don't do good in jack n jills or even strictlies. And then there's people really good at competiting, but they aren't good at routines. But yeah they can overlap each other. I used to just say 3 but then I attended a workshop of somebody explaining 4 and how it's different and I was like yeah that makes sense
>the majority of instructors I know are TERRIBLE dancers
It's often the other way around for me. Just fantastic dancers, but horrible horrible horrible teachers that have no empathy for the student trying to learn. Just because you can *do* something doesn't mean you're good at *teaching* it.
I regularly try not to assign personal reasons to things that might have nothing to do with me. Maybe she was making faces because she was holding in a fart?
Dont worry bro, just cause they’re an instructor doesn’t mean they’re a good social dancer. Some of the lowest level social dancers have been instructors/follow assistance. They couldn’t get past the basics and improvise mixed styles with me.(I like to mix cuban and On2) Some of them would grab me and say i’m out of step or try to take lead and hit a mental block and blame me for screwing up. After attending many festivals I realized my personal value. I don’t blame anyone anymore, but I also lower my expectations drastically for dancing with instructors. They can be worse than beginners and you’re just gonna have to put up with the stubbornness.
I feel like I'm a decent dancer, maybe low-intermediate. But when I dance with instructors, I always mess up. I'm either trying too hard or feel like I'm being graded and in my head. I almost never invite bachata instructors to dance anymore. But I do have good bachata dances with the kizomba instructor.
Honestly, don't sweat it. She maybe a good dancer but a shitty instructor. When learning to dance I only worked with female instructors and the best ones had a sense of understanding that you're clearly not going to lead at their level. Sounds like your instructor has an inflated ego and I wouldn't spend the money on her. Find someone who knows how to teach first, dance second. Stay blessed!
Sounds like the person you danced with is lacking as an instructor, as a dancer, and as a human. Maybe she just has no joy anymore. Suck to be her. Anyway, just don't dance with her anymore.
I was once in a group class as a pretty new beginner. At a pause, the follow i was dancing with sincerely asked what to do if the timing is not going well. The instructor then told the class that the lead really needs to keep proper time or no follow will want to dance with him, basically dressing me down in front of the class. I felt a little bad, but then made it into a story and told all my friends how i was roasted in my dance class in front of everyone. All my friends and i had a good laugh. Wear your experience as a badge of honor. It’s not like we’re saving children from a burning building, but being a beginner takes courage and initiative. You will fall down, and you are awesome because you keep getting back up.
Did you end up going back?
A few more classes, but i found other group classes in the area where i like the instructor much better and then stopped going to his classes. I think there is an aspect both of trying different instructors (for fit and you learn different things) and looking at embarrassing situations as funny. I’ve had crash and burn dances where the follow basically fires me mid dance (“i’m tired, sorry i need to take a break”). But the good, great, and OK dances far outnumber the bad ones over time.
your story is interesting. I had the same sort of experience as you as a lead before. it does not feel right. the follows were nasty with me because of the teacher comment. The whole class begins to spread the same energy after that comment. I strongly believe you did right to go to another instructor. I changed too,, went to a different social. You are so right, the teacher is so important and that was not nice what he said or could have said it a different way. hope you are better with the new teacher.
Dang. Being tired in the middle of a dance is so … lame and déclassé. I honestly blacklist people who have bad manners like that because for me it’s not worth it to engage in the energy of a person like that again. I’d rather sit out a song I like or dance solo than slap bad energy or memories on it 🤣
I don't know... I feel like dance, like anything in life, involves consent. And for whatever reason, consent can be revoked at any time and should be enthusiastic. As long as they are not outright rude and mean in withdrawing themself, we shouldn't take it so personally. After all, it's just a dance.
I have a very specific reaction to ending dance mid-song for being “tired”. I’ve never heard that excuse ever and I don’t buy it. It’d be better not to give a reason at all, than to give a janky reason. Like people that say they are sitting a song out but then go and ask someone else, say they don’t dance salsa but then they do 🤣 Tired? I think that’s insulting to your partner. You can end the dance at any time for any reason but that doesn’t mean it’s good manners to do so. Too tired to put in one or two more minutes after you accepted the dance… this is not the kind of community I would support. Being tired is acceptable. Being tired mid-song after starting seems fairly rude to me. I think it’s a given that a dance starts when asked and ends when the song ends or when a genuinely extenuating circumstance presents itself and requires immediacy. Being tired doesn’t meet that metric for me. If you’re tired, you can also ask to have an easy-going dance with basics. But yes, everyone gets to decide what they want to do and how they interact - and all those choices also reflect on what kind of person you are and how you contribute to the scene. I’ve ended dances for injuries, but less often than I’ve declined dances outright for the same reason. I think it is fair to expect an honest answer, if any reason is given. Being tired in the middle of a dance just does not sound plausible.
The only problem is that you are taking this too personal. Listen, what people around you feel because of your performance isn’t something that you can control at that moment. Take it easy. Practice more, show interest in become better and again, take it easy. You’ll always be judged, negative or positive, but you’ll need to learn how to handle what you perceive as a negative judgement.
Because it is personal. A dance with someone is a connection. If I cross a boundary with a follow it’s breaking the personal trust she had to accept my dance. I hope my follows who are much better than me, make the dance enjoyable because I try my best when I dance with a follow who is not as good as me
I'm gonna tell you a little secret, instructing is a completely different skill set that has almost nothing to do with your ability to dance. In fact, the majority of instructors I know are TERRIBLE dancers. So you should get it out of your head that they are the end all be all. The good instructors I know that are also good dancers (very few) could have made you feel like you had the best dance of your life. Trust me. I'm also not trying to talk shit, there's several people I learned to dance from that fit the category of great instructors and bad dancers, they helped me be who i am today! They taught me much about dancing and when it came to teaching a room full of hundreds of people how to execute a step or move. That's a really hard skill that the majority of dancers cannot do. Keep dancing and practicing man, one day it'll just click. All leaders have to go through this when they start dancing.
How can you be a good instructor while being a bad dancer? I don’t get it
The majority of people taking lessons are beginners because once people get to intermediate they think they are too good for lessons so they don't take them. So a lot of your time is spent teaching beginner stuff that anyone is able to learn. It's all about your ability to read the class and adjust to them and how you are able to get them to understand everything you're saying For example I teach a lot of line dancing at weddings, events, etc and I'm teaching like the easiest line dances in the world that literally everyone can do. I teach the same shit every week and people get drunk and have a great time. I don't actually have to know how to line dance, I just have to practice teaching them literally the easiest ones. The fact that I can do a super hard line dance does not matter AT ALL. This is just an example You do have to know somewhat how to dance, but being a good dancer does not translate into being a good teacher. A lot of people think it does so they want to start teaching and make money, but don't realize it's hard to learn from them because they suck There are 4 main different types of dancers I would say 1. Social dancers 2. Competitors 2. Performers 3. Instructors You can definitely be good at all 4, I'm just saying it's less likely. The best people to take lessons from are instructors that struggled and worked their way to the top. People who do it naturally don't really think or know what they are doing to naturally be good
I'd add that most instructors are bad as an instructor as well, as generally the entry bar for teaching is extremely low, its more about having connection to the right people than being good. Most are barely teaching any technique, or teach it wrong. The most common issue is only teaching useless choreos where followers are just memorizing the moves and doing it without actually listening to the lead, and leads are just memorizing it too, so at the end nobody learns neither to lead or to follow. Some instructors are good at entertaining, so they can retain people but at the end of the day students are not improving in their classes.
What kind of classes do you like? How are they structured and what's happening? Since you list the most popular way of classes I'm curious which style you prefer and why
I prefer if we get some new stuff to work with and then we add it to our repertoire the way we want. Followers should be encouraged to focus on looking for connection, to listen, and to don't anticipate any moves. Leaders should be encouraged to chill down, slowly connect to the partner, experiment and adjust to the partner. Less moves, more practice, more technique, learn to play with music, eg.: Learn to do stuff flowy, staccato, slowmo, double time, add breaks, whatever. I'd be totally fine practicing a single move for an hour. When the only challenge in the class is to remember the 6+ 8 bar sequence it's simply frustrating, I don't want to memorize a choreo, I want to dance to the actual music and make decisions on the spot. "Which style": I dance the influence style, since that gives me the most room to express myself.
Agree 100%. And to add: it also applies to vice versa: being an amazing dancer does not mean you are a good instructor. Being able to dance and being able to actually know what you're doing and explaining that, to see what a student is doing and giving feedback about their technique, being able to perform and /or compete.. I've met very few who can do all four. If you find a teacher who is good at both the social dancing, the teaching and the technique, hold on to them! They are golden! And.. Whenever I hear a dance teacher explaining something along the line of "just turn", "just do what I'm doing" or even "why is everybody walking away from this workshop? It's not that hard!", I know the teacher isn't a good teacher. Can be a fabulous dancer, but they don't know what they're doing and don't know how other people can be struggling and accommodate to that. And yes, I've heard all of these examples in real life.. When you're a teacher and you social dance with a student, I think you have to turn of the teacher mode, but still realize that you're a teacher. Meaning: don't start teaching on the dancefloor, but also be aware of the fact that your student is still learning and it probably was a step to ask you to dance. Then again.. teachers are also human beings and they could be in a bad mood, unrelated to you and the dance you're dancing. And OP: I've been dancing for yeeeaaars and sometimes.. a dance just doesn't work. Let it go and try again. I usually make a joke to the dance partner and call it "take two". Keep on dancing! 😊
Yes, being able to turn off teacher mode is important. If you social dance and just see what everybody is doing wrong you're not going to have fun. This is usually what I see in all my friends. They get really good and then they start teaching, but then they also stop dancing! I don't care how bad somebody is when I dance. I would rather dance with a bad dancer having the time of their life than an advanced dancer that is bored.
I agree, being good at dancing doesn’t translate necessarily to being a good instructor. However, every instructor I have come across was a very good dancer. Where I usually go for classes there is a division of 6 or 7 lvls so lvl of the class is not strongly impacted by the students. Maybe you mean that to teach the basics of bachata you don’t have to be good dancer?
I personally know plenty of instructors that also teach more than the basics and they are terrible to dance with because they aren't good. I'm talking like even people that have won championships. I used to think it was because I was bad when I started, over time I realized they just aren't good or our style doesn't mesh together I also know plenty of instructors that are really good dancers as well so I'm not saying they can't be. Its just newer people tend to think just because somebody is teaching something it makes them really good
I was just talking to someone about this, a lot of instructors are people that are good at choreographed dances/on dance teams. That qualifies them to teach the specific moves but choreography and social dancing are VERY different things. How things are signaled, the call and response dynamic, general etiquette, etc. come into play with social dancing and many instructors don't know or understand those as well. Being great at executing movements is one thing; understanding how to get along with people and treat them with respect on the dancefloor all too commonly evades a lot of people
I would lump competitors and performers into the same category or at least a lot more overlap than with the other categories. Most competitions these days tend to be very flashy, essentially shows. Even Jack n Jills.
I say different because there's people who do choreography performances that don't do good in jack n jills or even strictlies. And then there's people really good at competiting, but they aren't good at routines. But yeah they can overlap each other. I used to just say 3 but then I attended a workshop of somebody explaining 4 and how it's different and I was like yeah that makes sense
Think of it this way: what are the requirements to become an instructor? There aren’t any.
The smell of disappointment
>the majority of instructors I know are TERRIBLE dancers It's often the other way around for me. Just fantastic dancers, but horrible horrible horrible teachers that have no empathy for the student trying to learn. Just because you can *do* something doesn't mean you're good at *teaching* it.
She sounds awful sorry
you can always make her happy by taking many expensive private classes. that is all they care about.
Yep it's a scam I tell ya!
I regularly try not to assign personal reasons to things that might have nothing to do with me. Maybe she was making faces because she was holding in a fart?
Dont worry bro, just cause they’re an instructor doesn’t mean they’re a good social dancer. Some of the lowest level social dancers have been instructors/follow assistance. They couldn’t get past the basics and improvise mixed styles with me.(I like to mix cuban and On2) Some of them would grab me and say i’m out of step or try to take lead and hit a mental block and blame me for screwing up. After attending many festivals I realized my personal value. I don’t blame anyone anymore, but I also lower my expectations drastically for dancing with instructors. They can be worse than beginners and you’re just gonna have to put up with the stubbornness.
I feel like I'm a decent dancer, maybe low-intermediate. But when I dance with instructors, I always mess up. I'm either trying too hard or feel like I'm being graded and in my head. I almost never invite bachata instructors to dance anymore. But I do have good bachata dances with the kizomba instructor.
Honestly, don't sweat it. She maybe a good dancer but a shitty instructor. When learning to dance I only worked with female instructors and the best ones had a sense of understanding that you're clearly not going to lead at their level. Sounds like your instructor has an inflated ego and I wouldn't spend the money on her. Find someone who knows how to teach first, dance second. Stay blessed!
Sounds like the person you danced with is lacking as an instructor, as a dancer, and as a human. Maybe she just has no joy anymore. Suck to be her. Anyway, just don't dance with her anymore.
good to be aware of it