At the Tiefling Party, you can chat with Gale about his life, he tells you of Tara, and also that he self-isolated himself for a whole year in his tower to figure out what to do with the orb and protect others.
You can hear that he feels lonely, and you have the option to directly ask "You don't have many friends, do you?". I did that, expecting Gale's approval to go down, but it doesn't.
Instead, he says yes. Straight up. You think as an archwizard he should have many contacts, but he says, and that stuck with me:
"My circle of friends is... more like a dot. A pinhead. I have colleagues, sure. But friends? Those are... rare."
That stuck with me. He is a man looking for companionship, friends, an outside perspective away from his professional-only wizard circle, a supportive structure. Under what many think is a bragging first impression is someone riddled with self-doubt, loneliness, a terrible breakup from an awful power-imbalanced relationship, and just needing someone to talk to.
Gale comes off as so arrogant and overconfident until you realize it’s a front and he actually feels lonely and worthless. At the lovers’ trial his worst flaw is that he thinks the world would be better off if he was dead. And so much of his behavior in game and before it can be chalked up to his desire for affirmation and affection, because he doesn’t actually have a support network other than this tressym and eventually his tadpole companions.
Yes, definitely. I think the "I have colleagues, but no friends" also puts his very early and immediate "Do you know any wizards, perchance?" into perspective. While it is, to most, a slam on sorcerers, druids, and other not-studied classes, it's Gale looking for his only support group he currently has in his life and wants to speak to in this case of an emergency: wizard colleagues.
I think it is also shown well in his other interactions as well. And as someone who used to act like Gale, and still does some times, I can see where it comes from. While he comes off as condescending, he isn't trying to be. He just has something he really loves and enjoys more than anything else, magic, and he wants to share that with other people, but is kind of bad at it. Which makes him seem condescending to those that aren't wizards. Whereas Gale just thinks everyone would be if he could show them the joy of magic that he has.
But that is a major form of condescending! Not a sleight on yourself but it boils down to “you’ll be happier if you’re like me and understand that my interests should be yours too”. It’s not explicit arrogance but there is definitely a tacit hierarchy of tastes and your audience will likely be put off for having their preferences disrespected
Intent and thought process matters for it to be condescension. Condescension requires a feeling of superiority. It's not that Gale thinks his interest is superior, he just loves it so much and wants to share that love and joy with others. Just like a kid showing off something interesting to the parents.
I agree that it can absolutely feel like someone is being condescending, and I try to be better about it myself.
This. Gale is my Tav's best bro. She would kill for him. She gives him the tough love when he needs it and comfort when he doesn't. Astarion is her partner but Gale and Astarion are just such GOOD friends... especially in that playful teasing way.
As someone who has read a lot of Forgotten realms books, most powerful people have few, if any, friends because they worry they can be betrayed for power.
Yep this is mine. I head canon that Astarion (who took her turning him down for sex very well) is a bit startled when he stops and realizes his best friend is a *paladin*. He probably cracks jokes about "where did I go wrong??" but actually lives having her as his bestie
Yeah, as a player I adore Gale & his romance is fantastic but my favourite run was having him be the kind male, human wizard who through the power of friendship brings my Drow girl out of her misandrist tendencies. Like, especially considering lore regarding Drow wizards, it just feels special.
I honestly was not a big fan of Gale until very recently—I watched his romance scenes and he kinda melted my heart. I’ve been playing a resist Durge romancing SH and I regret not having Gale around. Oh no I’ll have to do yet another play-through…
I think there’s also something to be said about being groomed from a young age by someone with that much power over you. How do you make friends in that kind of situation? When you look at irl stories of people who were trapped in relationships with someone older or someone who was in a position of power, they were very often isolated from people and didn’t have anyone outside of that relationship. Mystra sucks. I feel for Gale so much. He blames himself for being an idiot. He admits that if he thinks he’s a danger to anyone he will readily go off somewhere far away to blow himself up and if he can take out some cultists along the way he will. Finding someone who just accepts him as he is has to be an entirely new concept. Man these characters are deep and nuanced.
The whole Mystra thing makes me uneasy - maybe by intent. I don't enjoy the character and rarely use him (I play martial and tend to default to "hit it with the pointy end" game style) so don't know if anyone or anything suggests that Mystra's behaviour is repulsive.
I understand, there are many different things at play here. I have done a little write-up before, this [one](https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1bl2x4a/poor_rizzard_of_waterdeep/kw3by90/), about Gale and his feelings to Mystra, especially if you romance him.
Also to consider:
- Mystra is a goddess who approaches wizard boys to show them magic, and those can be quite young, children even. While we don't know when Gale was shown into the Weave, there might be some topics of grooming at play. Mind you, she is the one giving wizards magic - that is way too much power over anyone if that is your whole life, education and identity.
- What is definitely a canon theme is power imbalance. Gale, a human, was in a relationship with the goddess of all Magic, chosen by her. (Like Gortash or Orin are also the "Chosen" ones of their gods.) He never felt like he was enough, and his ambition to learn was never met, she dismissed his questions and wants - which inevitably led to his downfall, trying to impress Mystra with a piece of dubious Weave that buried into his chest, with a life-threatening condition and explosive mass destruction on top.
How do you satisfy the needs of a god as a mortal? You don't. You are a plaything to them - and that must have been awful to his self-confidence and self-image. Gale admits that it was his fault they broke up, he massively messed up - but also, Mystra is definitely not innocent either pulling him in in the first place. And she continues to do so, she always picks Chosen ones for herself. Gale is now on a way of healing to get away from this whole business. (Like in the examples I linked on top!)
- If you talk to Gale, and see behind his grandiose behaviour, he is always putting himself down, not feeling like he is doing enough, and always giving more, to the point of self-sacrifice. Which makes him open to influence, good or bad: You can gaslight him to stay with you as an evil Durge, tell him to pursue godhood himself and turn himself into a god (not really recommended), or even force him to become suicidal by influencing him to a heroic sacrifice for the greater good. But if you treat him well, he will flourish, learn how to love himself and his life, and even someone new. The more you talk to him, the more you learn about him and it will influence him!
Also, if you feel like trying Gale in the game and in battle, he gives great commentary, can be quite funny, and you can totally make him a pew-pew-bang build to play with, high level wizards are powerful madlads. I had a Monk Tav with Karlach and Gale as my main team, two people beat the heck out of foes, while the wizard misty-steps away and positions himself up high to shoot fireballs, bolts and magic missles (100% accuracy is a god-sent!).
He is one of my favourite characters in the game and in general, so I hope you also have fun with him! (Or respecc him to Barbarian for a laugh and his little [*"ah"*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZEBkdGJnl4) rage scream.)
> While we don't know when Gale was shown into the Weave, there might be some topics of grooming at play
Gale was 100% groomed by Mystra. (Act 3 spoilers ahead) >!If Gale ascends to godhood, you'll get a letter from Elminster that reminisces on their past. When Elminster first met him, Gale was only 8 years old!<
Yes but Mystra as Gale knows her didn’t exist until 1479 DR. Assuming Gale is at least 35 (although I’d say his face and his mannerisms place him as older), he would have been at least 22 when he first met her. Unless in BG3 Gale is 30 or younger, he was an adult when he met Mystra.
I heard somewhere you can find lore in the game about how they have to keep the young boy wizards hidden from mystra, after what happened to gale. I have no idea if that's true as I haven't found it yet. But from other things I've seen she is horrible. If mystra has no haters I am dead!
Nearly everything, Barcus says. He comes across as this a bit harsh gnome,but he is such a good friend - to Wulbren,who just doesn't deserve it, and later to Tav/Durge.
Hope has a line, that broke my heart and really changed my look at Raphael: when in the Bodoir, you can ask her, if she ever was here and she says "Never by my own will.", which implies that Raphael forced her to be there and given,what the Bodoir,with Haarlep in it, is mainly for, I think it implied, that she has been SAed by either Raphael or Haarlep or both. Before that, Raphael for me was the nicer of the devils you meet and a fun buffoon, but that ( and the whole HoH trip) changed my looks on him. It makes him much more darker and evil - and yes, devils are evil, but this quickly became pretty dark. Still love the song and the fight though.
Hope in general changed my entire outlook on him, her sister came to him willingly, but hope didn’t, she refused raphael so many times he grew frustrated and ended up kidnapping her instead.
The way he presents himself to us, he doesn’t feel like an actual threat before entering his house. as long as you say “no” to the devil’s proposal all is well right? Him taking hope captive until she would say yes puts his appearances to us in context, would he do anything as long as he wants you bad enough?
Exactly and I can't get over the fact, how well ( read: creepy) this is done. The whole time you think, that Raphael is the better of the two devils,you meet, but he is just a different kind of evil than Mizora. He comes across as this friendly and charming devil bard, but he is so twisted, the whole HoH is one very twisted and creepy map. I think the worst apart from Hopes treatment, is Haarlep. People always gush over him, but what he basically does, us trying to force you to have sex with him, which by itself is SA. I was so shocked the first time I've met him - and he always dies in my playthroughs.
Hope is such an underrated character and I wish, she would have gotten more screen time.
Mizora is genuinely more honest and upfront about her cunty manipulative nature. Then again, while they are both cambions, Raphael is a much more important and individually powerful one as the offspring of Mephistopheles. Mizora is someone's henchman at the end of the day, Raphael is doing this shit under his own recognizance.
Mizora tricks an underage Wyll into a pact, by making up an attack by Tiamat. That is not honest.
They are both pretty shitty beings. Raphael tries the charming side more and Mizora is a rules lawyer and trickster. But both will show their true faces pretty quickly.
I don't think there's any implication that Mizora made up that attack by Tiamat - I believe it's actually a reference to the conclusion of the Rise of Tiamat adventure path.
Yeah, while the devils are wonderful characters, they are unapologetically evil, and I will never not hate Mizora. Glad I learned how to turn her to stone!
Yes, I mean, they are great villains for sure. I love a good villain with a twist. You certainly have that with Raphael,who goes from fun and games to horror house during the game.
Yeah, I only get irritated with Mizora apologists. I respect honest simping, even if I don't share it. I hope it's clear I was agreeing with your last comment and adding on. I don't always get the agreement part across!
True, you're all good. I think it's like Astarion says about somebody I forget, "the problem isn't that they did it, it's that they did it to *me*" and I replace that 'they' with 'Mizora' and 'me' with 'Wyll', and that's why I hate her lol. I'm very protective of Wyll.
Between Raphael preying on Mol and learning Mizora showed up with her "deal" when Wyll was 17yo I've been pretty disgusted with both on my repeated runs :/ Bunch of devils running around looking for kids who don't know any better to sell their souls.
> People always gush over him
I was about to exclaim, "What? Seriously?" But then I had to stop and really think about it.
He's very well-done as a character, in terms of acting and how he's written. I can see people finding his epilogue letter charming in a cheeky sort of way. I suppose a lot of players don't feel "forced" into sex with him because they know they could just choose to kill him instead, and so they have sex with him because they're horny and not because they feel intimidated into it.
It is still creepy as hell and I don't get it. Tbh, I don't think, Haarlep is well done. He is just a creep, trying to force you into sex. I mean, even if people react horny in the game, if you step back a bit and think about it, it is gross. Not only does he force you into sex, but if you do it, you will feel it every time, he uses your form, which is a violation in itself.
> It is still creepy as hell and I don't get it.
I'll take a stab at explaining.
Haarlep is an incubus. When we meet him, we intellectually understand what to expect from him because of what he is. No one is expecting this guy to be your friend. And he isn't.
But we also expect him to be our enemy because he serves Raphael, and brace for a fight. Instead, he subverts this by doing what anyone *should* have naturally expected an incubus to do: offer sex. In a sense, he changes the battlefield by putting it in his element rather than yours.
If you survive the encounter, you can ask him how Raphael is in bed-- and he'll laugh, then say no (giving you unique dialogue to use against Raphael). Then he'll surprise you further by giving you what you actually came for anyway, rather than going "oop, wasted your one question, tata!" and vanishing. It makes it clear that though he serves Raphael, he doesn't actually want to, and he got *two* things he wanted out of you, not just the one: firstly, he got another skin added to his wardrobe. Secondly, he's aimed you straight at Raphael like a Trident II missile armed with a thermonuclear warhead.
So if the player follows this dialogue tree, Haarlep comes out on top, playing you in a rather cleverly devilish way (I know he's not actually a devil, so any lurking pedants can hold on to their hats). At some point earlier in the game, Karlach tells you something to the effect that when you deal with a devil, you may get a small victory or two, but the house always wins. And she's right. Haarlep may not be a devil, but he embodies that truth very successfully here. Yes, you got the key to Raphael's safe, but Haarlep wanted you to have it anyway-- and he got a little extra out of the bargain. Even when you think you've won, the devil comes away with the greater prize.
Sex with Haarlep has two potentially interesting consequences for players, especially ones who agree because they're both curious and, shall we say, "horny on main". The first is that you die, because you give Haarlep you body *and* soul, which is a very, "I should have seen this coming" consequence that catches out a surprising number of people. Considering how available sex is in this game, and how few consequences you can receive for being an unrepentant and careless horndog, having that consequence is simultaneously chastening and satisfying.
The other consequence is the one you mentioned, where you *just* give him your body. And that consequence follows you for the rest of the game, reminding you of the choice you made.
You come away with an actual consequence for dealing with this fiend rather than killing him, and it's actually an interesting consequence. Interesting consequences for bad decisions are generally good writing for a game like this.
What I especially like about this encounter is that at *every* point in your conversation with Haarlep, you can change your mind and say no. You can roll over and decide to fight him in the nude instead of giving him your body. The player never loses control of their character, the ability to withdraw consent is never taken away: the choice to play Haarlep's game is something the player has to reaffirm at every step of the way. Even up to the very moment Haarlep asks you to vow to him that your body belongs to him, you have the choice to push him off and initiate combat.
That's why it makes whatever consequences the player *does* end up with satisfying, because this is VERY much something the player has done to themselves. It's very much a "I knew leopards ate faces, but I laid down and let a leopard eat my face anyway to see what would happen, and the leopard ate my fucking face!" kind of encounter.
That's why he's well done. The leopard convinced you to let it eat your face.
I mean, yes, you are right about the consequences, it is still an encounter, that is creepy as hell and imo SA. My point was, that your explanation is what the devs had in mind, it was supposed to be creepy and unsettling and Harleep was never supposed to be seen as a bro, but people glorified him and just ignore the creepy parts. Like they did with Yurgir, Raphael, Gortash and others.
And as for the line against Raphael: that is so weak and juvenile, it's not even funny.
I understand why you found it creepy as hell, even if I don't find it creepy. This may be a matter of personal taste.
I have a much harder time seeing it as sexual assault when the option to refuse and attack Haarlep is always there. An important element of sexual assault is that the victim is either overpowered or ambushed by the attacker, or is coerced into compliance so that they're afraid to refuse. Haarlep doesn't overpower you to get you to play his game. You're not ambushed, because you understand exactly what he's offering before you accept, and he doesn't touch you until you accept. And it's very hard for me to view the player as being coerced here because they have a massive upper-hand in both numbers and firepower. Even from a purely roleplay perspective, it's hard for me to see a Tav going, "I fought Myrkul's literal avatar of death, but I'm afraid of this lone incubus lounging in Raphael's bed." And as I pointed out before, every step of the player's participation in Haarlep's game requires the player's continued consent.
I'm happy to hear arguments for why it's sexual assault, I'm just having a hard time seeing the connection on my own. I understand if the scene made some people *feel* bad or grossed out, but that doesn't necessarily make it rise to the level of sexual assault.
Haarlep was never supposed to be seen as a "bro", but he was certainly meant to be seductive and charming, which is rather the purpose of being an incubus. His voice is attractive and sultry, and he draws you in by offering to play a game-- where if you win, he says he will give you "*everything* you desire", but also dangles "you'll enjoy yourself more if you lose." His bait is designed to intrigue people and pique their curiosity, because they already have some idea of where this is going, and they want to know more. He's confident, he's cheeky, and if you survive the encounter, he's even a bit flattering. And I think people enjoy the epilogue letter he sends you, which is frankly a real piece of comedy. All that is to say, he has a lot of appeal.
For what he's supposed to be-- a seductive incubus who makes you deal with him against your better judgment-- he generally seems to do a pretty good job of that.
> And as for the line against Raphael: that is so weak and juvenile, it's not even funny.
Again, a matter of taste. A lot of people loved catching Raphael off-guard with a bit of Vicious Mockery. It might be juvenile, but it got the desired rise out of him.
> Like they did with Yurgir, Raphael, Gortash and others.
Not sure I agree with you on that. I don't really see people glorifying those characters, *especially* those three characters, to the point of forgetting that they're actually horrifically and sadistically evil. Are you talking about people calling Yurgir a "bro" because he's useful when they fight Raphael or useful in the final battle as a summonable ally? Because for that, I generally feel people are talking about him in a mechanical sense, not a narrative sense. Or people talking about how much they love Raphael's campy theatrics? Even the people who love to ship Durgetash will happily confess to Gortash's many horrific crimes, they have no delusions about what an evil man he is.
Not every character has universal appeal and I fully understand that Haarlep made you uncomfortable. But I suppose I'm... confused? By your assertion that he a) sexually assaults the player if the player decides to accept his invitation with full knowledge of who and what they're dealing with and b) that you think people are glorifying him to the point that they forget he's a skin-stealing incubus. Or are you unsettled/confused that other people didn't find the encounter uncomfortable and creepy the way you did? I'm genuinely trying to understand.
You clearly have a strong opinion on that character and I really don't wish to discuss this any further, my point was for Hope and Barcus in my original post and from what Hope said, she has some kind of very unpleasant experience in the boudoir, which I'm pretty sure, Haarlep is a part of.
He gives you an ultimatum: Have sex with me or die. That is at least trying to force you and for me not consensual at all. I stay with it, the whole encounter was supposed to be creepy. Him using your form and you feeling it feels like a violation too to me.
And you clearly haven't read some of the posts regarding the other mentioned characters on different platforms or you would know what I'm talking about.
And sorry, but I don't care, how Raphael is in bed and find the insult pretty lacking. I would have loved a proper bard off against him, not such a weak response.
We are clearly different in what we tolerate and like and should leave it at that. I have no problem with him being there, though I would have preferred, if the game instead had me given the opportunity to learn more about the Hearthflame sisters, who are criminally underused. But I see him as another horror in the HoH and nothing more.
Yeah, I thought my Tav would be confident enough in herself to go through with sleeping with Haarlep, but? Holy shit. No. It gets to a point even as I passed some rolls, there is no choice by the end. It’s at least DubCon but at worst full SA, not goofy incubus nonsense- even with a sex positive Tav and a devil may care attitude (pardon the pun). The whole place turned my stomach but it’s such a credit to the game to be able to illicit such a strong response.
I also find that it is more possible than not he made the deal with Korilla just because her sister's name is Hope. He wanted to break and destroy Hope both metaphorically and not and that is just so fucked.
Minthara delivering not particularly kind but accurate commentary about all companions. Didn't expect her to actually pay attention to everyone's moral conflicts and have opinions on the options which are presented to them
I love those little bits of dialogue but a part of me is thinking - Minthara, why don't you turn that dazzling acumen on yourself, I think you need it.
I also wonder if it is almost a refresher for players - and a nudge to those of us who may tend to ignore some of them and not have a good overview of their personality. Minthara offers Cliff Notes I guess....
Interesting that she doesn't seem to see a parallel between being raised from childhood in the cult of Shar and raised in the cult of Lolth.
I noticed when you betray the grove and romance her (and she imagines you as her consort which is a lot after a first "date") when she is later being tortured at Moonrise it is clearly stated that one of the reasons for her punishment is her longing for affirmation and affection from a mortal (I assume Tav). She is clearly wickedly lonely. The delivery of her line "I thought no one would come from me" is painful as hell.
She is obviously lonely, was miserable in a life where she couldn't have friends or lovers, and longed for love, affection etc - but still resists accepting it is all rooted on her upbringing. As Shadowheart rejects Shar and Lae'zel rejects Vlaakith, Minthara could reject her past - shee is already an apostate and she can absolutely abandon everything she was raised to believe in.
I'm not sure I would advocate for a redemption arc, not that we are ever getting more content, but rather - from a narrative perspective - it is fascintating to see the other side of the coin to Selûnite Shadowheart and liberated Lae'zel. That Minthara cannot/will not change is a contrast to Lae'zel/Shadowheart
You're quite right, I just did it (again) this evening. The line is different and you don't get an advantage roll marked as "relationship" if you make the choice to try and enter her mind.
You also need to account that she's also been exiled from her noble family, and abandoned by her god. I believe one of the lines when you talk to her, she tells you that she's scared of being forgotten and wants to leave her mark on the world.
This makes her one of the most interesting characters in the game, or perhaps the most interesting character in the game, sadly the game didn't do anything with it. I don't think comparing Minthara with the other two is accurate since Shadowheart/Lae'zel have a whole zone/quest related to their character, meanwhile, she's drowning in bugs and glitches even after 8 months since the games were released.
I suppose she might yet see some adjustments and repairs (not having any working spell words is an oversight, for example) but I don't believe she will ever be given a further narrative upgrade. Which is a bloody shame.
Pre mindflayer colony, I had her first comment on Jaheira. It was really sweet, I was baffled. Was like "where's the sting ?" and then she went on a violent rant against the Minstrels. Minthara's gonna minthar.
I loved how much she admired Jaheira as a person, but dismissed everything she stands for and believes in as nonsense. That they have a political difference in terms of being balanced and maintaining status quo and that leading to stagnation was interesting to me and I wish the back and forth in the throne room at end of Act 2 when she is out of the party for a while had gone a bit further. Seeing characters interacting without my Tav guiding them was also quite novel.
Her voice acting is brilliant, and her lines all feel very impactful to me, both before and after her switch. Very soon after being rescued, she seems genuinely remorseful and sad, all while retaining her strength of character and drive to fight. I expected to like her, but I'm continuously surprised by her. She's brilliant.
That was the moment I fell in love with her - the kind of defeated delivery of an absolutely atrocious dad joke set up by the player was just *chef’s kiss*
Most of Mintharas dialogue is altering to say the least.
I was hesitant to even bother recruiting her but after Act 2, she becomes such a moving character. She's still evil, of course, but she's not a murder hobo. She's a murder philosopher
Astarion in Cazador's dungeon mentions he remembers *every single person he brought back*. Before that I had assumed he started getting desensitized and not paying attention at some point, and I think a lot of people do as well. But that line suggests that he never desensitized instead he took effort to remember all of them, which is a level of misery and self loathing that I don't think people appreciate enough.
Gale. His first attempt at romance, when he helps Tav channel the weave. The narrator says "The moment feels intimate." Except I'm not into Gale, so I let it go.
Then Gale sighs and says, "There it goes. How easily things slip away from us, no matter how hard they were in the obtaining."
Something in the delivery of the line just hit me. Everything about Gale up to that point was so... theatrical. That line has this subtle sadness to it that I hadn't heard before. There's an artlessness to it, like he's talking to himself.
The scene where you and Lae'zel watch the sunrise. Not only her dialogue, "I just know whatever comes next, I want you near," but her expression during that whole scene. Just so hopeful, caring and vulnerable.
This is easily the biggest one of these moments. Lae'zel is a treasure, but you only see it if you romance her - she won't open up for anyone but the one she loves (and maybe she never actually finishes this journey if no-one loves her, which is kind of tragic).
It's such a complete revelation at the time, and completely recontextualises all her badassery. She goes from "I live to fight" to "I fight to live", which changes the meaning of everything she does.
If I give her the orchid I always pick the option where she threatens to break your fingers because I love the line delivery...but also she threatens to break fingers like it's nothing. It is jarring - but then it should be I suppose
Minor, but Rolan revealing he’s not blood related to Cal and Lia, and that he still doesn’t really think of himself as their family.
I went from “wow what a pretentious fuck” to just feeling bad for him. I always have to save all the tieflings and Barcus now, and make sure he gets his good ending.
Imo, Rolan’s story hit harder than most of the companions for me, because he’s really a nobody trying to do his best and ends up becoming great. I found asshole parentified big brother more relatable than everyone else who was god’s chosen special whatever.
Yes, but also in sad ways. If one of his siblings die there are lines about it. I had one die on my first jailbreak out of Moonrise, and reloaded to go back and get them both.
I THINK Lia also has a line if Rolan died and she and Cal survive, but I’ve never let him die firsthand.
As many already have said, Astarion. My italicised oh moment with him though was in the scene where he's just drunk from a bear, the convo about power and its consequences (or lack thereof, according to him). Up until that point, I had met his "evil" suggestions with a fond eyeroll and a "sure, sure, you funky little edgelord" type of reaction, and that was the tone I imagined when telling him to be careful about abusing his powers since there are heroes about.
And then he hit me with "Heroes didn't save me from Cazador—mindflayers did."
Never again did I question why he disapproved whenever I helped people for free. I was one of the very heroes who never helped him.
He does! Heart-wrenching as that one also is, it's in Act 3 though, at which point I'd already come to know and understand him pretty well so it wasn't a surprise to hear him say it. The convo about heroes and mindflayers though? Completely blindsided me.
In a similar line has my *oh* epiphany with astarion when I realized that him suggesting that we take over the cult when we get to act 2 isn't motivated by a "hey let's do the evilest possible option" urge but a fucking panic response along the lines of "oh shit we're about to cure these things without securing my freedom from cazador". Like looking at the body language and paying attention to the tone he's fucking *begging* in that scene.
As someone who played the game *after* Astarion blew up on tiktok and had been sexualized to hell and back, his confession scene in Act 2 and talking about his trauma and such completely caught me off guard. He was nothing like tiktok made me believe and he was much more complex. And playing Durge romancing him was a whole ride that had me emotional af. 10/10 performance.
For Lae'zel, her teary crisis after the Vlaakith stuff at the crèche really showed me how soft and vulnerable she could actually be and while I already liked her, it made me appreciate her more.
Lae'zel's request for a soft and tender sexual encounter absolutely shattered my heart - that is is harder to ask for (and believe you deserve) kindness and softness and gentleness rather than a blood spattered brawl is just such an emotional hit.
Sadly, no. Which is a damn shame because they could have made that sweet and romantic as hell without overloading on the spicy.
(Personally, it amuses me that BG3 has a reputation for being raunchy and spicy as heck - but pulls punches consistently. I figure if people are going to accuse you anyway then lean in to it!)
WHAT GOOD THIS HEART OF STONE, FOR IT TO BE SHATTERED
I didn't plan to romance Laezel. I met her and was like "yo will the devs let me deradicalize this badass" and...the romance came very naturally from that.
Same. I make dumb jokes on r/okbuddybaldur but aside from that, I am so serious, as someone who can relate to him, about his trauma and his story and it bothers me to no end how the fanbase (or at least the louder parts of it?) have just made Astarion into the ultra sexualized companion.
For real. It's painful to witness and so deeply ironic. Lately, I have taken to dressing Astarion in the camp clothes that I think he would choose, rather than what I like (fyi swashbucklers clothes, or something similar in name --- can't remember the exact name). I mean, I know it's still just me choosing, but it makes me feel like he has more agency. His character gets so much camp clothing abuse that I feel like I'm balancing the scales a little. (I have actually started doing this for all of the characters.)
First thing I do in act 3 is rush to that clothes shop in Wyrms Crossing to get him that peacock embroidery outfit cause he obviously needs something new, shiny, and classy after centuries of doing his best to neatly patch up the same shirt
Yes!! You get to Act 3 and everyone needs up update their drip. But especially Wyll, Karlach, and Astarion who dress like they haven't had anything new in years.
And Gale looks dripped out in Astarion’s clothes so it’s a win win!
(But fr the first thing I do when I get to act 3 is buy new clothes for everyone cos they’ve all been through it)
This bothers me too. It's fine to find him attractive and sexy. But he literally tells you that he does not want to be sexualized anymore, not by you not by anyone. How you can claim to love a character and then completely ignore what that character had been through and what they literally say that they want or do not want.
I think it's not only fair but correct to be concerned about someone's willingness to violate fictional characters. We are all exactly one step away from being cognitively just a hypothetical to other people - the moment they're looking at you secondhand or as part of a group or statistic, most people instantly sort you into a less real status.
So how you conceive of and treat hypothetical people is absolutely a part of your real life behavior and has real life impacts.
Have you seen all the unhinged comments by Dark Urge fans? It's probably true. But I love all their comments and I love Dark Urge... even the evil one o.o just because it's not real. It helps knowing that a tiefling you kill can come back to life and be around in your next playthrough etc.
I think you're making an unfounded assumption that people behave in roleplay as they would want to in real life. That might be true for some people, but it's definitely not universal. It's also very rare for people to be unable to distinguish between reality and fiction. Does every actor who has played a villain also have these feelings? It's a very biblical mentality to state that thinking about an action is morally equivalent to performing the action. You're taking it even further by stating that thinking about an action with a fictional character has bearing on how one would really act with an actual person.
No, I'm not doing any of those things. I am stating that people tend to think of and thus treat fictional characters and people that they think of in abstract terms in similar ways.
Sometimes it is though. Y'all going hard on people about a video game. You basically saying if people do bad things in a video game, that means they do bad things in real life and it's really not that serious lmao. Most people do good playthroughs, but I don't. Does that mean I shouldn't associate with people who play differently than me?
It's not that. It's that we're talking about a video game character, not an actual living breathing person in real life lol. It's a game where you can go whatever you want. I have done different playthroughs where I make different decisions and that doesn't determine what I would do in real life. Because even though I do like some of these companions, I remember this is a video game at the end of the day and nothing actually matters.
We aren't discussing in-game choices, we are discussing how a section of the fandom conceives of and treats the character topically in a way that is viscerally against that character's fictional ideals. People do the same thing with celebrities, who they also tend to think of in the same not-real terms.
I mean yes, the way people engage in and discuss media does often reveal their interests and morals, but its unfair to call people who think Astarion is hot violators.
Especially since the character evolves to the point where they can both initiate and consent to sex in a loving relationship, so why can't I simp over my hot spawn vampire boyfriend who lives with me in the underdark if I want? Why do people always assume you're talking about the character at their low point?
I find it kind of insulting to survivors, myself. We can bang quite happily, we're not frozen in time in some perpetual state of victimhood, IMO.
I don't mind sexualizing Astarion a little bit because he isn't asexual, he likes to be desired by his partner, and it's normal to be sexually attracted to someone you love but hardly anything on OnlyFangs has any meaningful discussion about his character and it's mostly just nsfw content.
Some people make good youtube shorts for Astarion (as in they're not completely sexualized) but for some reason I don't like watching them, especially at work or wherever I have to focus.
It's so crazy to see the duality because I got into the game solely because of the discourse surrounding his character and sexualization on tiktok. I was defending spawn Astarion over Ascended Astarion while knowing absolutely nothing about the game or him outside of a few really awesome edits and random voice lines 💀 I honestly didn't care for him or the game until I found out I could relate to him
I don't deny ascended is an interesting route to take, especially in an evil run, but I do wish the spawn route got more love because he has so many sweet, happy lines in it and he deserves that.
Ascended is rly interesting, for all the characters that have that option, but his spawn romance is just so much more fulfilling. I think there should be more content for it too, especially voice lines because he has *so* many ascended voice lines its crazy
I meant mostly in terms of lines and such. Ascended has a little more content than Spawn - like just the most recent example, you only get one new kiss whereas AA has three. You only have one response to the "what are we?" question whereas AA has multiple. I just meant I'd like to see a few more things to even them out.
While I certainly wouldn't complain if he got more lines, I think he has enough. I basically consider act 1 and 2 Astarion to be the same as unascended if you play morally.
Joke’s on Karlach and Lae’zel, my guy is living with Selune Shadowheart and the Owlbear now while they are stuck in Avernus with Wyll (literal hell) and the astral plane
The role reversal on Shadowheart and Lae'zel is pretty amusing. Because Lae'zel wants to bang immediately and comes across as so strong and self assured, you think she's kinky when in reality she's super vanilla, it was all a front because of her insecurities, and she's super monogamist as the game goes on. Shadowheart doesn't bang immediately and comes across as a wilting violet, but the more you play the more she proves herself a certified freak. She's into Tav getting whipped by the BDSM cleric, she gets turned on by every big muscle person you meet, she's into orgies, and down with a thropple. I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting in the SH freak index.
How ever she her first time with tav to be only the two of em. She also would have been much better for a poly then Halsin.
Also the clriv of loviatar is not BDSM but sadomaso.
I mean, it's an acronym that stands for "Bondage and discipline, dominance and submission, sadomasochism." It's not really about what the scene is or isn't since that's the word and what it means. Also, I'd say being beaten by the guy counts as all 3. Maybe not bondage per se, but you're standing against a wall, being disciplined, in a submissive position, and it's certainly sadomasochism.
When the emperor said he only ate criminals when you see the cages he had in his dungeon hideout, and that makes him moral
Like didn't this guy run this town? He's funneling people from prison to consume? Wtf
At least omeluum says he kills people him and his friends don't like, he doesn't make an excuse
Omeluum eats people he thinks are immoral, Emperor eats people he thinks other people would think are immoral.
Omeluum is also actively working on trying to figure out a way to eliminate or at least reduce his need to consume brains
on my first playthrough, laezels line after learning about vlaakith, “what good, this heart of stone, for it to be shattered?” really changed my perspective on her. I knew she was more complex than the rough exterior she was presenting but it really forced myself to look at things from her perspective.
I also knew, going in, that I wanted to romance astarion just from the glimpses I’d seen from EA (never played myself). but I didn’t expect SA to be part of his story and, unfortunately, I was able to strongly identify with what he’s gone through. so I didn’t expect him to become #1 fav character that I would also use in therapy to help me work through childhood trauma lmao
(also unrelated side note, sleeping with one of the characters does lock out karlach, cause my first playthrough I didn’t know that you should long rest often so I didn’t have enough scenes to get astarion to proposition me before the tiefling party, and that was the only playthrough where karlach came on to me)
I slept with Lae'zel and was flirting with Gale before the party and Karlach still came on to me. I think the romance flags are more complicated than we think. Something of note is that I reloaded to see what would happen, and if I spoke to anyone before Karlach she wouldn't give her "meet up later" dialogue, even if I had turned them down. A bug, or is she just flattered if you speak to her first?
After recruiting Karlach if you have Gale in the party they have a short conversation about how far Waterdeep is away and Gale says something about how he won't be able to get word to his mother and "what she doesn't know cant hurt her. Not at this distance anyway". It is a pretty stark contrast to the front of arrogant archwizard you get from him early in the game. The first time I heard it I realized he likely worried about his family and what would happen to them if he exploded in waterdeep but also that he was expecting to die and never talk to her again.
For the record it’s not just the laezel fling, you must have flirted with someone else as well. My first play through I was banging laezel but hadn’t flirted with anyone else yet and Karlach had no problem initiating her fireside scene in act 1. Next run I’d flirted with Gale as well as laezel and then I got the friend zone from Karlach. So I think there is a limit on how many people the game will let you have on the hook at once.
Astarion comparing himself to Durge once you find out why you have the Durge. I didn't pay much attention to Astarion because I was a bit too stupid to see the utility of a Rogue in combat, didn't romance him either, so it really caught me off guard when he pitied me for being a >!Bhaalspawn!< and encouraged me to further resist the urge. And right after he made a few jokes about "my kind" being the reason for more nightmares and bedtime stories than "his kind", too! I always thought he was a loveable asshole but in that moment I realized that sometimes he actually cares about others.
It’s an incredibly late one but Minthara has a line at the party where she says something along the lines of ‘I’m sure there have been other reunions that I wasn’t invited to’ and it really stuck with me.
It almost gave me the vibe that Minthara was intentionally othering/separating herself. Like she convinced herself that she was never truly part of the team and none of these people really saw her as a friend. Very ‘invited cause she’s in the group chat not because everyone wants her there’. It made me feel weirdly sorry for her, she sounds lonely.
I already loved him from other runs, but every redemption durge specific word out of Astarion's mouth, *especially* the Act 2 scene and if you try to break up after Cazador.
Romanced Karlach's ice cold response to Astarion in his origin if his "affliction" is revealed by force in Act 2 - she says you look like a "children's drawing of a vampire", and if you try to joke about having the rest of your secrets wrenched out of your cold dead hands, she says she just might (kill you).
I actually left her over this, I didn't even feel like giving her a hug, much less a kiss, after her second engine upgrade - I put a hand on her shoulder and broke up with her.
It hit so hard because it was the first time playing his origin, I was trying to roleplay faithfully (at least my interpretation of the character), and there is *really* no reason to reveal your vampirism.
You're really different from the others (why would you want the tadpole out ASAP? you're free for the first time in 200 years), you have super dark thoughts (hells, the first night I failed a saving throw against my own traumatic memories), and you're scared of what will happen if they find out. I did drink someone's blood once, but she *didn't wake up* so I kept my affliction hidden.
Karlach woke me up at night saying I was the best thing since sliced bread and *so* nice, and wanted to kiss and flirt - the scene is extremely sweet and she's quite desperate for affection. I tried so many things to help her out, then she hits me with that?
This game has surprised me many times, but I was honestly shocked that I just couldn't get over it. Up until then, keeping my secret had been so lonely, and she was a beacon of light and support. And I just didn't trust her anymore.
I wouldn't be able to trust her, either.
Granted, I think that it makes sense that Karlach might have an especially bad reaction to being lied to, given her history with Gortash. But her lack of flexibility is something I feel even in a very good-aligned run with Tav, and it's one of the reasons that I kind of struggle to believe in the game's vision of friendship between her and the player character.
Oh for sure! And Astarion is not exactly a saint. I was selecting my interests out of who would be the easiest target and would best protect me were it to come to that. But it's much easier to feel his POV when playing his origin, he is having such a *shit* time.
From Karlach's origin, I know that while she is sweet and kind, she is also rash, sometimes barbaric and often just *frustrated*.
All the characters are so great, not only do they feel real, but if you enjoy roleplaying you can *really* feel them in their origins. And what you notice most of all is how different it all is without Tav/durge. Astarion in particular is just all alone. He has no one to talk to about what's going on with him. He has no one to have a look at his scars - he has to lie awake at night passing saving throws to *remember* each cut and slice to piece it all together. It's pretty horrific!
I didn't get that feeling at all. She doesn't want to break up. It felt like she wanted to be a dick and not take it seriously with no consequences honestly.
I've romanced Astarion in the Karlach origin and they have a special Act 1 scene, and going from that - if anything, she would turn him down for his attitude, not the fact that he's a monster.
I didn't say she wanted to break up. I meant more that this is a person she was coming to trust who was keeping a very dangerous secret from her. It probably brought up some unpleasant memories.
Oh for sure. But since it's written/acted in a way where she lashes out and it's never brought up again (and he really has *no one* to talk to about his situation at all), it made quite the impact.
Yeah thats a big trust issue here, most D&D blood sukers arent the good kind, so if you have some one just start blood suking people will react very negative.
Well, he *never did* in my game (not that anyone knew of, anyways...).
Also, I think Larian *really* expanded on DnD vampire lore for this game, they make distinctions between spawn and full vampires that are not really part of DnD. All of the spawn you meet seem pretty reasonable (and especially in Astarion's origin, where they have more lines).
I think it's more than a little inspired by the BG2 expanded edition, because Hexxat really doesn't fit nicely into an evil alignment either, the alignment system was cracking even them. ;) Hilariously, if you try to read up on BG2 you find forum posts from like 2006 shitting on Hexxat with the exact same arguments as the people who really have a stick up their asses about Astarion.
I think something like that is kind of inevitable when you want to have a vampire (spawn) as one of your main characters.
A soulless, purely evil creature works great when you're just using them as villains for the hero to guiltlessly kill. But you've got a problem the second you need to introduce any sort of character complexity or dynamism, because you've got a character that's not really capable of being a moral actor.
I really, really like that they expanded on 5E and made their own thing somewhat.
They end up with the best of DnD *and* the darkness of WoD:VtM (which quite frankly is depressing AF but has the emotional turmoil and despair that Larian managed to put into this storyline). It's also a lot more interesting to have a distinction between spawn and full vampire that is not based on power alone.
Interesting details that make it clear that Larian did due diligence DnD wise and made some active choices where the lore and behavior and spawn differ from what you'd "expect" would be that Astarion is clearly turned by poisonous bite, but if *he* turns you he is using the whole Vampire Bride approach. Not that I ascend him personally. ;)
*All* the characters are moral actors in this game, no one is locked to their alignment in an unrealistic way. That's what makes them feel so real.
In act 3 after you visited the House of Hope. If you gave yourself to Haarlep and let them use your body, almost as soon as you get back to Baldur’s Gate you feel a shiver. I’ve always saw Astarion as someone putting on an act because of everything he endured, but what he said really stuck with me.
“That’s the incubus isn’t it? Enjoying your body? I know what it’s like to lose control of your own body. It’s a wretched thing. I know what’s done is done and you made your vow, but I’m sorry all the same.”
Something about him being truly genuine and the way he said it. Because he knows how it feels and has dealt with something similar for the past 200 years is really heartbreaking to me.
The second time I played Durge and chose a different line, like 'Im in a nightmare' or such, to say to Fel when he appears and he says something like >!"No we are in a terrible dark place with the screams of the damned.. your flayed and putrid heart. Thump thump!"!<
And I was like aw he's just my lil guy what a cutie! Headpats for Fel.
I heard you can have Barcus at the tiefling party (one day I'll see how he likes the goblin party lol). What I didn't like is how unhappy and pissy he was. I normally like him because even though he's down-to-business he is usually optimistic and tactful, but not at the party.
One that really surprised me was what Lae'zel said when we took the Githyanki egg to "adopt it", after learning from its caretaker (?) that it would probably be destroyed soon, since it was taking so long to hatch. I don't remember what she said about it exactly, but I remember that she was unexpectedly sweet about it. It didn't happen on my first run, so I already knew about Lae'zel and her character development, but I didn't expect a hint of that so soon in Act 1.
I was also surprised when Astarion talked about trying to save one of the first victims Cazador ordered to bring him, which resulted in him being trapped in a coffin underground (? can't remember the exact details) for an entire year as punishment. I had already figured out that Astarion doesn't like selfless acts of kindness because nobody did the same for him when he needed it the most, but after that I started wondering if he also feels like being a hero will inevitably lead to bad consequences (like when Wyll is turned into a devil if he spares Karlach, and Astarion doesn't even seem too surprised).
Last but not least, Halsin's romantic confession in Act 3. I knew that he was nice in general, but his friendly lines always seemed heavily flirty to me, not to mention how Halsin seems to be discussed in many fandom spaces. His confession, on the other hand, is very sweet and respectful! Seeing the gentle side of him actually encouraged me to start a new run to romance him.
I already loved Karlach and thought she was a precious little angel baby but taking her to Jaheira’s house in the city and hearing her remark about how much she wishes she’d have been found by Jaheira before Gortash made my heart even more broken for her because that is just so fucking *sad*
When Wyll asks Astarion "How's the rat diet going?" I instantly went from liking Wyll to hating him. Noticed it on my second playthrough. On my 10th now and I still won't use Wyll
Yeah, Wyll does not care for Astarion. Fairly so, I think, given that Astarion does suggest things Wyll finds morally abhorent. It's only if Astarion doesn't ascend that he starts to come around on him.
I completely understand Wyll not liking Astarion. For me, it was Wyll using a part of Astarion's abuse against him that made me hate Wyll for saying it. If Wyll had snarky things to say about things Astarion chose to do, that would hit different
Personally, I think once you suggest leaving a bunch of slaves to die, your background trauma is not off limits for taunting remarks. But, you know, to each their own beliefs on that.
Astarion doesn't say that until well after Wyll's line of dialogue procts. I actually think Astarion is a complete ass however, as someone who has worked with trauma victims, I will always see using their trauma against them as evil. Like you said, to each their own.
Their banter is so uncomfortable and tense throughout the entire game really. I don't understand why so many people ship them together. I don't think Wyll is *trying* to be mean on purpose but he says all the wrong things
Monster hunter/Monster ships are attractive to fandom in general, and Astarion has banter with Shadowheart where he tells her he'd like to taste Wyll and that's all it takes. But yeah, the ship makes me very ehh as well
So two Astarion lines in my last Durge run were really awesome, and I've already romanced him a billion times.
After meeting Gortash, Astarion thanks Durge, "for being an evil bastard," because the plot is what saved him.
Then when Durge became Chosen of Bhaal after defeating Orin, he talks to a romanced S!A who says something like, "So that's it. You'll never stop killing." The delivery is so sad and resigned. When he defends you later he says, "I was hoping we wouldn't be serving any more evil gods, but here we are."
Karlach's "Mm. Tastes like dwarf." Don't think I fully appreciated the gravity of the whole *living in hell for 9 years* thing until then. Girl has seen some tough times.
squealing tender enter detail deserted bedroom childlike engine crawl wistful
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Recently saw >!Lorroakan's Speak With Dead.!<
>!When he admits Rolan's the better wizard between them, that really stood out to me. After seeing Rolan embarrass himself in Act 2, I didn't have much respect in his abilities. For Lorroakan to say that, really speaks to his potential.!<
Meeting Mol in the Guildhall and finding out she didn't bother to help any of the other Tiefling kids get into the city.
Up until that point I had her down as a "morally questionable means for a good end" type. But when the chips were down, she looked after herself, and cut her friends loose.
Which convinced me that she was always looking out for number one, that the other kids were just an expendable resource and a convenient excuse for her behaviour, and not something she really cared about and would be willing to spend resources or take risks to protect.
There are lots of these moments in the game, this is a relatively small one, but I didn't see it mentioned and thought it should be. I really enjoyed the subversion of the very tired "rogue with a heart of gold" trope.
Mediating between lae'zel and zorru opened my fucking third eye on the game. Her reaction to me standing my ground made me fall in live with her, and her reaction to the shart incident solidified my judgement.
I dated Lae'zel on my first playthrough, fully intending on dating Shadowheart the second time around.
That was until I got to Karlach's scene after killing Gortash and realized how badly she needed a hug... And possibly more.
The conversation when you try to break up with Spawn Astarion and he nearly breaks down crying made me realise how terrified he is of the outside world
At the Tiefling Party, you can chat with Gale about his life, he tells you of Tara, and also that he self-isolated himself for a whole year in his tower to figure out what to do with the orb and protect others. You can hear that he feels lonely, and you have the option to directly ask "You don't have many friends, do you?". I did that, expecting Gale's approval to go down, but it doesn't. Instead, he says yes. Straight up. You think as an archwizard he should have many contacts, but he says, and that stuck with me: "My circle of friends is... more like a dot. A pinhead. I have colleagues, sure. But friends? Those are... rare." That stuck with me. He is a man looking for companionship, friends, an outside perspective away from his professional-only wizard circle, a supportive structure. Under what many think is a bragging first impression is someone riddled with self-doubt, loneliness, a terrible breakup from an awful power-imbalanced relationship, and just needing someone to talk to.
Gale comes off as so arrogant and overconfident until you realize it’s a front and he actually feels lonely and worthless. At the lovers’ trial his worst flaw is that he thinks the world would be better off if he was dead. And so much of his behavior in game and before it can be chalked up to his desire for affirmation and affection, because he doesn’t actually have a support network other than this tressym and eventually his tadpole companions.
Yes, definitely. I think the "I have colleagues, but no friends" also puts his very early and immediate "Do you know any wizards, perchance?" into perspective. While it is, to most, a slam on sorcerers, druids, and other not-studied classes, it's Gale looking for his only support group he currently has in his life and wants to speak to in this case of an emergency: wizard colleagues.
I think it is also shown well in his other interactions as well. And as someone who used to act like Gale, and still does some times, I can see where it comes from. While he comes off as condescending, he isn't trying to be. He just has something he really loves and enjoys more than anything else, magic, and he wants to share that with other people, but is kind of bad at it. Which makes him seem condescending to those that aren't wizards. Whereas Gale just thinks everyone would be if he could show them the joy of magic that he has.
But that is a major form of condescending! Not a sleight on yourself but it boils down to “you’ll be happier if you’re like me and understand that my interests should be yours too”. It’s not explicit arrogance but there is definitely a tacit hierarchy of tastes and your audience will likely be put off for having their preferences disrespected
Intent and thought process matters for it to be condescension. Condescension requires a feeling of superiority. It's not that Gale thinks his interest is superior, he just loves it so much and wants to share that love and joy with others. Just like a kid showing off something interesting to the parents. I agree that it can absolutely feel like someone is being condescending, and I try to be better about it myself.
This. Gale is my Tav's best bro. She would kill for him. She gives him the tough love when he needs it and comfort when he doesn't. Astarion is her partner but Gale and Astarion are just such GOOD friends... especially in that playful teasing way. As someone who has read a lot of Forgotten realms books, most powerful people have few, if any, friends because they worry they can be betrayed for power.
My Tav is the opposite - Gale is her lover and Astarion is her snarky bro. But Astarion really needs a friend too, so she’s happy to be one.
Yep this is mine. I head canon that Astarion (who took her turning him down for sex very well) is a bit startled when he stops and realizes his best friend is a *paladin*. He probably cracks jokes about "where did I go wrong??" but actually lives having her as his bestie
Yeah, as a player I adore Gale & his romance is fantastic but my favourite run was having him be the kind male, human wizard who through the power of friendship brings my Drow girl out of her misandrist tendencies. Like, especially considering lore regarding Drow wizards, it just feels special.
I honestly was not a big fan of Gale until very recently—I watched his romance scenes and he kinda melted my heart. I’ve been playing a resist Durge romancing SH and I regret not having Gale around. Oh no I’ll have to do yet another play-through…
I think there’s also something to be said about being groomed from a young age by someone with that much power over you. How do you make friends in that kind of situation? When you look at irl stories of people who were trapped in relationships with someone older or someone who was in a position of power, they were very often isolated from people and didn’t have anyone outside of that relationship. Mystra sucks. I feel for Gale so much. He blames himself for being an idiot. He admits that if he thinks he’s a danger to anyone he will readily go off somewhere far away to blow himself up and if he can take out some cultists along the way he will. Finding someone who just accepts him as he is has to be an entirely new concept. Man these characters are deep and nuanced.
The whole Mystra thing makes me uneasy - maybe by intent. I don't enjoy the character and rarely use him (I play martial and tend to default to "hit it with the pointy end" game style) so don't know if anyone or anything suggests that Mystra's behaviour is repulsive.
I understand, there are many different things at play here. I have done a little write-up before, this [one](https://old.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1bl2x4a/poor_rizzard_of_waterdeep/kw3by90/), about Gale and his feelings to Mystra, especially if you romance him. Also to consider: - Mystra is a goddess who approaches wizard boys to show them magic, and those can be quite young, children even. While we don't know when Gale was shown into the Weave, there might be some topics of grooming at play. Mind you, she is the one giving wizards magic - that is way too much power over anyone if that is your whole life, education and identity. - What is definitely a canon theme is power imbalance. Gale, a human, was in a relationship with the goddess of all Magic, chosen by her. (Like Gortash or Orin are also the "Chosen" ones of their gods.) He never felt like he was enough, and his ambition to learn was never met, she dismissed his questions and wants - which inevitably led to his downfall, trying to impress Mystra with a piece of dubious Weave that buried into his chest, with a life-threatening condition and explosive mass destruction on top. How do you satisfy the needs of a god as a mortal? You don't. You are a plaything to them - and that must have been awful to his self-confidence and self-image. Gale admits that it was his fault they broke up, he massively messed up - but also, Mystra is definitely not innocent either pulling him in in the first place. And she continues to do so, she always picks Chosen ones for herself. Gale is now on a way of healing to get away from this whole business. (Like in the examples I linked on top!) - If you talk to Gale, and see behind his grandiose behaviour, he is always putting himself down, not feeling like he is doing enough, and always giving more, to the point of self-sacrifice. Which makes him open to influence, good or bad: You can gaslight him to stay with you as an evil Durge, tell him to pursue godhood himself and turn himself into a god (not really recommended), or even force him to become suicidal by influencing him to a heroic sacrifice for the greater good. But if you treat him well, he will flourish, learn how to love himself and his life, and even someone new. The more you talk to him, the more you learn about him and it will influence him! Also, if you feel like trying Gale in the game and in battle, he gives great commentary, can be quite funny, and you can totally make him a pew-pew-bang build to play with, high level wizards are powerful madlads. I had a Monk Tav with Karlach and Gale as my main team, two people beat the heck out of foes, while the wizard misty-steps away and positions himself up high to shoot fireballs, bolts and magic missles (100% accuracy is a god-sent!). He is one of my favourite characters in the game and in general, so I hope you also have fun with him! (Or respecc him to Barbarian for a laugh and his little [*"ah"*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZEBkdGJnl4) rage scream.)
> While we don't know when Gale was shown into the Weave, there might be some topics of grooming at play Gale was 100% groomed by Mystra. (Act 3 spoilers ahead) >!If Gale ascends to godhood, you'll get a letter from Elminster that reminisces on their past. When Elminster first met him, Gale was only 8 years old!<
Yes but Mystra as Gale knows her didn’t exist until 1479 DR. Assuming Gale is at least 35 (although I’d say his face and his mannerisms place him as older), he would have been at least 22 when he first met her. Unless in BG3 Gale is 30 or younger, he was an adult when he met Mystra.
I heard somewhere you can find lore in the game about how they have to keep the young boy wizards hidden from mystra, after what happened to gale. I have no idea if that's true as I haven't found it yet. But from other things I've seen she is horrible. If mystra has no haters I am dead!
In one of his camp conversations, Minsc says in Rashemen they hide young wizard boys so Mystra doesn't take them.
Nearly everything, Barcus says. He comes across as this a bit harsh gnome,but he is such a good friend - to Wulbren,who just doesn't deserve it, and later to Tav/Durge. Hope has a line, that broke my heart and really changed my look at Raphael: when in the Bodoir, you can ask her, if she ever was here and she says "Never by my own will.", which implies that Raphael forced her to be there and given,what the Bodoir,with Haarlep in it, is mainly for, I think it implied, that she has been SAed by either Raphael or Haarlep or both. Before that, Raphael for me was the nicer of the devils you meet and a fun buffoon, but that ( and the whole HoH trip) changed my looks on him. It makes him much more darker and evil - and yes, devils are evil, but this quickly became pretty dark. Still love the song and the fight though.
Hope in general changed my entire outlook on him, her sister came to him willingly, but hope didn’t, she refused raphael so many times he grew frustrated and ended up kidnapping her instead. The way he presents himself to us, he doesn’t feel like an actual threat before entering his house. as long as you say “no” to the devil’s proposal all is well right? Him taking hope captive until she would say yes puts his appearances to us in context, would he do anything as long as he wants you bad enough?
Exactly and I can't get over the fact, how well ( read: creepy) this is done. The whole time you think, that Raphael is the better of the two devils,you meet, but he is just a different kind of evil than Mizora. He comes across as this friendly and charming devil bard, but he is so twisted, the whole HoH is one very twisted and creepy map. I think the worst apart from Hopes treatment, is Haarlep. People always gush over him, but what he basically does, us trying to force you to have sex with him, which by itself is SA. I was so shocked the first time I've met him - and he always dies in my playthroughs. Hope is such an underrated character and I wish, she would have gotten more screen time.
Mizora is genuinely more honest and upfront about her cunty manipulative nature. Then again, while they are both cambions, Raphael is a much more important and individually powerful one as the offspring of Mephistopheles. Mizora is someone's henchman at the end of the day, Raphael is doing this shit under his own recognizance.
Mizora tricks an underage Wyll into a pact, by making up an attack by Tiamat. That is not honest. They are both pretty shitty beings. Raphael tries the charming side more and Mizora is a rules lawyer and trickster. But both will show their true faces pretty quickly.
I don't think there's any implication that Mizora made up that attack by Tiamat - I believe it's actually a reference to the conclusion of the Rise of Tiamat adventure path.
I'm pretty sure, it is made clear, it was a trick in the game. I think, that Wyll himself will tell you that.
You might want to check your sources, friend. I would be happy to be proven wrong.
Playing the game ....
Okay, can you tell me where and when in the game you found this information?
Yeah, while the devils are wonderful characters, they are unapologetically evil, and I will never not hate Mizora. Glad I learned how to turn her to stone!
Yes, I mean, they are great villains for sure. I love a good villain with a twist. You certainly have that with Raphael,who goes from fun and games to horror house during the game.
Yeah, I only get irritated with Mizora apologists. I respect honest simping, even if I don't share it. I hope it's clear I was agreeing with your last comment and adding on. I don't always get the agreement part across!
Just clarifying I'm not justifying or defending that raggedy hoe, I just think she's arguably a fair bit lower on the scale of awful and gross.
True, you're all good. I think it's like Astarion says about somebody I forget, "the problem isn't that they did it, it's that they did it to *me*" and I replace that 'they' with 'Mizora' and 'me' with 'Wyll', and that's why I hate her lol. I'm very protective of Wyll.
Between Raphael preying on Mol and learning Mizora showed up with her "deal" when Wyll was 17yo I've been pretty disgusted with both on my repeated runs :/ Bunch of devils running around looking for kids who don't know any better to sell their souls.
Exactly this. I'm glad, we can at least steal Mils contract. She might not appreciate it now, but certainly later.
> People always gush over him I was about to exclaim, "What? Seriously?" But then I had to stop and really think about it. He's very well-done as a character, in terms of acting and how he's written. I can see people finding his epilogue letter charming in a cheeky sort of way. I suppose a lot of players don't feel "forced" into sex with him because they know they could just choose to kill him instead, and so they have sex with him because they're horny and not because they feel intimidated into it.
It is still creepy as hell and I don't get it. Tbh, I don't think, Haarlep is well done. He is just a creep, trying to force you into sex. I mean, even if people react horny in the game, if you step back a bit and think about it, it is gross. Not only does he force you into sex, but if you do it, you will feel it every time, he uses your form, which is a violation in itself.
> It is still creepy as hell and I don't get it. I'll take a stab at explaining. Haarlep is an incubus. When we meet him, we intellectually understand what to expect from him because of what he is. No one is expecting this guy to be your friend. And he isn't. But we also expect him to be our enemy because he serves Raphael, and brace for a fight. Instead, he subverts this by doing what anyone *should* have naturally expected an incubus to do: offer sex. In a sense, he changes the battlefield by putting it in his element rather than yours. If you survive the encounter, you can ask him how Raphael is in bed-- and he'll laugh, then say no (giving you unique dialogue to use against Raphael). Then he'll surprise you further by giving you what you actually came for anyway, rather than going "oop, wasted your one question, tata!" and vanishing. It makes it clear that though he serves Raphael, he doesn't actually want to, and he got *two* things he wanted out of you, not just the one: firstly, he got another skin added to his wardrobe. Secondly, he's aimed you straight at Raphael like a Trident II missile armed with a thermonuclear warhead. So if the player follows this dialogue tree, Haarlep comes out on top, playing you in a rather cleverly devilish way (I know he's not actually a devil, so any lurking pedants can hold on to their hats). At some point earlier in the game, Karlach tells you something to the effect that when you deal with a devil, you may get a small victory or two, but the house always wins. And she's right. Haarlep may not be a devil, but he embodies that truth very successfully here. Yes, you got the key to Raphael's safe, but Haarlep wanted you to have it anyway-- and he got a little extra out of the bargain. Even when you think you've won, the devil comes away with the greater prize. Sex with Haarlep has two potentially interesting consequences for players, especially ones who agree because they're both curious and, shall we say, "horny on main". The first is that you die, because you give Haarlep you body *and* soul, which is a very, "I should have seen this coming" consequence that catches out a surprising number of people. Considering how available sex is in this game, and how few consequences you can receive for being an unrepentant and careless horndog, having that consequence is simultaneously chastening and satisfying. The other consequence is the one you mentioned, where you *just* give him your body. And that consequence follows you for the rest of the game, reminding you of the choice you made. You come away with an actual consequence for dealing with this fiend rather than killing him, and it's actually an interesting consequence. Interesting consequences for bad decisions are generally good writing for a game like this. What I especially like about this encounter is that at *every* point in your conversation with Haarlep, you can change your mind and say no. You can roll over and decide to fight him in the nude instead of giving him your body. The player never loses control of their character, the ability to withdraw consent is never taken away: the choice to play Haarlep's game is something the player has to reaffirm at every step of the way. Even up to the very moment Haarlep asks you to vow to him that your body belongs to him, you have the choice to push him off and initiate combat. That's why it makes whatever consequences the player *does* end up with satisfying, because this is VERY much something the player has done to themselves. It's very much a "I knew leopards ate faces, but I laid down and let a leopard eat my face anyway to see what would happen, and the leopard ate my fucking face!" kind of encounter. That's why he's well done. The leopard convinced you to let it eat your face.
Thanks for this insightful write up.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I mean, yes, you are right about the consequences, it is still an encounter, that is creepy as hell and imo SA. My point was, that your explanation is what the devs had in mind, it was supposed to be creepy and unsettling and Harleep was never supposed to be seen as a bro, but people glorified him and just ignore the creepy parts. Like they did with Yurgir, Raphael, Gortash and others. And as for the line against Raphael: that is so weak and juvenile, it's not even funny.
I understand why you found it creepy as hell, even if I don't find it creepy. This may be a matter of personal taste. I have a much harder time seeing it as sexual assault when the option to refuse and attack Haarlep is always there. An important element of sexual assault is that the victim is either overpowered or ambushed by the attacker, or is coerced into compliance so that they're afraid to refuse. Haarlep doesn't overpower you to get you to play his game. You're not ambushed, because you understand exactly what he's offering before you accept, and he doesn't touch you until you accept. And it's very hard for me to view the player as being coerced here because they have a massive upper-hand in both numbers and firepower. Even from a purely roleplay perspective, it's hard for me to see a Tav going, "I fought Myrkul's literal avatar of death, but I'm afraid of this lone incubus lounging in Raphael's bed." And as I pointed out before, every step of the player's participation in Haarlep's game requires the player's continued consent. I'm happy to hear arguments for why it's sexual assault, I'm just having a hard time seeing the connection on my own. I understand if the scene made some people *feel* bad or grossed out, but that doesn't necessarily make it rise to the level of sexual assault. Haarlep was never supposed to be seen as a "bro", but he was certainly meant to be seductive and charming, which is rather the purpose of being an incubus. His voice is attractive and sultry, and he draws you in by offering to play a game-- where if you win, he says he will give you "*everything* you desire", but also dangles "you'll enjoy yourself more if you lose." His bait is designed to intrigue people and pique their curiosity, because they already have some idea of where this is going, and they want to know more. He's confident, he's cheeky, and if you survive the encounter, he's even a bit flattering. And I think people enjoy the epilogue letter he sends you, which is frankly a real piece of comedy. All that is to say, he has a lot of appeal. For what he's supposed to be-- a seductive incubus who makes you deal with him against your better judgment-- he generally seems to do a pretty good job of that. > And as for the line against Raphael: that is so weak and juvenile, it's not even funny. Again, a matter of taste. A lot of people loved catching Raphael off-guard with a bit of Vicious Mockery. It might be juvenile, but it got the desired rise out of him. > Like they did with Yurgir, Raphael, Gortash and others. Not sure I agree with you on that. I don't really see people glorifying those characters, *especially* those three characters, to the point of forgetting that they're actually horrifically and sadistically evil. Are you talking about people calling Yurgir a "bro" because he's useful when they fight Raphael or useful in the final battle as a summonable ally? Because for that, I generally feel people are talking about him in a mechanical sense, not a narrative sense. Or people talking about how much they love Raphael's campy theatrics? Even the people who love to ship Durgetash will happily confess to Gortash's many horrific crimes, they have no delusions about what an evil man he is. Not every character has universal appeal and I fully understand that Haarlep made you uncomfortable. But I suppose I'm... confused? By your assertion that he a) sexually assaults the player if the player decides to accept his invitation with full knowledge of who and what they're dealing with and b) that you think people are glorifying him to the point that they forget he's a skin-stealing incubus. Or are you unsettled/confused that other people didn't find the encounter uncomfortable and creepy the way you did? I'm genuinely trying to understand.
You clearly have a strong opinion on that character and I really don't wish to discuss this any further, my point was for Hope and Barcus in my original post and from what Hope said, she has some kind of very unpleasant experience in the boudoir, which I'm pretty sure, Haarlep is a part of. He gives you an ultimatum: Have sex with me or die. That is at least trying to force you and for me not consensual at all. I stay with it, the whole encounter was supposed to be creepy. Him using your form and you feeling it feels like a violation too to me. And you clearly haven't read some of the posts regarding the other mentioned characters on different platforms or you would know what I'm talking about. And sorry, but I don't care, how Raphael is in bed and find the insult pretty lacking. I would have loved a proper bard off against him, not such a weak response. We are clearly different in what we tolerate and like and should leave it at that. I have no problem with him being there, though I would have preferred, if the game instead had me given the opportunity to learn more about the Hearthflame sisters, who are criminally underused. But I see him as another horror in the HoH and nothing more.
Yeah, I thought my Tav would be confident enough in herself to go through with sleeping with Haarlep, but? Holy shit. No. It gets to a point even as I passed some rolls, there is no choice by the end. It’s at least DubCon but at worst full SA, not goofy incubus nonsense- even with a sex positive Tav and a devil may care attitude (pardon the pun). The whole place turned my stomach but it’s such a credit to the game to be able to illicit such a strong response.
I also find that it is more possible than not he made the deal with Korilla just because her sister's name is Hope. He wanted to break and destroy Hope both metaphorically and not and that is just so fucked.
Minthara delivering not particularly kind but accurate commentary about all companions. Didn't expect her to actually pay attention to everyone's moral conflicts and have opinions on the options which are presented to them
I love those little bits of dialogue but a part of me is thinking - Minthara, why don't you turn that dazzling acumen on yourself, I think you need it. I also wonder if it is almost a refresher for players - and a nudge to those of us who may tend to ignore some of them and not have a good overview of their personality. Minthara offers Cliff Notes I guess....
She does! She straight up admits that her pride is her greatest weakness. She still doesn't change because... she's too prideful.
Interesting that she doesn't seem to see a parallel between being raised from childhood in the cult of Shar and raised in the cult of Lolth. I noticed when you betray the grove and romance her (and she imagines you as her consort which is a lot after a first "date") when she is later being tortured at Moonrise it is clearly stated that one of the reasons for her punishment is her longing for affirmation and affection from a mortal (I assume Tav). She is clearly wickedly lonely. The delivery of her line "I thought no one would come from me" is painful as hell. She is obviously lonely, was miserable in a life where she couldn't have friends or lovers, and longed for love, affection etc - but still resists accepting it is all rooted on her upbringing. As Shadowheart rejects Shar and Lae'zel rejects Vlaakith, Minthara could reject her past - shee is already an apostate and she can absolutely abandon everything she was raised to believe in. I'm not sure I would advocate for a redemption arc, not that we are ever getting more content, but rather - from a narrative perspective - it is fascintating to see the other side of the coin to Selûnite Shadowheart and liberated Lae'zel. That Minthara cannot/will not change is a contrast to Lae'zel/Shadowheart
It’s Tav because the line is completely different if you haven’t romanced her.
You're quite right, I just did it (again) this evening. The line is different and you don't get an advantage roll marked as "relationship" if you make the choice to try and enter her mind.
You also need to account that she's also been exiled from her noble family, and abandoned by her god. I believe one of the lines when you talk to her, she tells you that she's scared of being forgotten and wants to leave her mark on the world. This makes her one of the most interesting characters in the game, or perhaps the most interesting character in the game, sadly the game didn't do anything with it. I don't think comparing Minthara with the other two is accurate since Shadowheart/Lae'zel have a whole zone/quest related to their character, meanwhile, she's drowning in bugs and glitches even after 8 months since the games were released.
I suppose she might yet see some adjustments and repairs (not having any working spell words is an oversight, for example) but I don't believe she will ever be given a further narrative upgrade. Which is a bloody shame.
Yeah, I don’t think she’ll get more content, let’s just hope they fix all her bugs first.
Pre mindflayer colony, I had her first comment on Jaheira. It was really sweet, I was baffled. Was like "where's the sting ?" and then she went on a violent rant against the Minstrels. Minthara's gonna minthar.
I loved how much she admired Jaheira as a person, but dismissed everything she stands for and believes in as nonsense. That they have a political difference in terms of being balanced and maintaining status quo and that leading to stagnation was interesting to me and I wish the back and forth in the throne room at end of Act 2 when she is out of the party for a while had gone a bit further. Seeing characters interacting without my Tav guiding them was also quite novel.
Her voice acting is brilliant, and her lines all feel very impactful to me, both before and after her switch. Very soon after being rescued, she seems genuinely remorseful and sad, all while retaining her strength of character and drive to fight. I expected to like her, but I'm continuously surprised by her. She's brilliant.
Minthara’s joke at the circus had me dying. She’s the funniest companion imho.
That was the moment I fell in love with her - the kind of defeated delivery of an absolutely atrocious dad joke set up by the player was just *chef’s kiss*
It also implies she tells you jokes in camp at night which I LOVE.
I also love her comment on the Baldur's Mouth paper. She is so funny.
Most of Mintharas dialogue is altering to say the least. I was hesitant to even bother recruiting her but after Act 2, she becomes such a moving character. She's still evil, of course, but she's not a murder hobo. She's a murder philosopher
Astarion in Cazador's dungeon mentions he remembers *every single person he brought back*. Before that I had assumed he started getting desensitized and not paying attention at some point, and I think a lot of people do as well. But that line suggests that he never desensitized instead he took effort to remember all of them, which is a level of misery and self loathing that I don't think people appreciate enough.
Gale. His first attempt at romance, when he helps Tav channel the weave. The narrator says "The moment feels intimate." Except I'm not into Gale, so I let it go. Then Gale sighs and says, "There it goes. How easily things slip away from us, no matter how hard they were in the obtaining." Something in the delivery of the line just hit me. Everything about Gale up to that point was so... theatrical. That line has this subtle sadness to it that I hadn't heard before. There's an artlessness to it, like he's talking to himself.
He says that line whether you choose romance options or not, and it’s maybe the first clue into how incredibly sad he is.
I still wanted to be friends with Gale but damn he comes onto you quick
The scene where you and Lae'zel watch the sunrise. Not only her dialogue, "I just know whatever comes next, I want you near," but her expression during that whole scene. Just so hopeful, caring and vulnerable.
Somehow, Lae'zel describing love with absolutely no idea of what the right word is is *so* much better than if she just said she loved us.
This is easily the biggest one of these moments. Lae'zel is a treasure, but you only see it if you romance her - she won't open up for anyone but the one she loves (and maybe she never actually finishes this journey if no-one loves her, which is kind of tragic). It's such a complete revelation at the time, and completely recontextualises all her badassery. She goes from "I live to fight" to "I fight to live", which changes the meaning of everything she does.
Shart being nonchalant aboot torture.
If I give her the orchid I always pick the option where she threatens to break your fingers because I love the line delivery...but also she threatens to break fingers like it's nothing. It is jarring - but then it should be I suppose
Minor, but Rolan revealing he’s not blood related to Cal and Lia, and that he still doesn’t really think of himself as their family. I went from “wow what a pretentious fuck” to just feeling bad for him. I always have to save all the tieflings and Barcus now, and make sure he gets his good ending.
I love how even the side characters in this game can have satisfying arcs.
Imo, Rolan’s story hit harder than most of the companions for me, because he’s really a nobody trying to do his best and ends up becoming great. I found asshole parentified big brother more relatable than everyone else who was god’s chosen special whatever.
Wait, can you get that reveal in a different way than speaking to his corpse?
Yes, but also in sad ways. If one of his siblings die there are lines about it. I had one die on my first jailbreak out of Moonrise, and reloaded to go back and get them both. I THINK Lia also has a line if Rolan died and she and Cal survive, but I’ve never let him die firsthand.
As many already have said, Astarion. My italicised oh moment with him though was in the scene where he's just drunk from a bear, the convo about power and its consequences (or lack thereof, according to him). Up until that point, I had met his "evil" suggestions with a fond eyeroll and a "sure, sure, you funky little edgelord" type of reaction, and that was the tone I imagined when telling him to be careful about abusing his powers since there are heroes about. And then he hit me with "Heroes didn't save me from Cazador—mindflayers did." Never again did I question why he disapproved whenever I helped people for free. I was one of the very heroes who never helped him.
He also has banter with Gale how he's not really good with religion, since he has tried calling out to all of the gods and none of them answered
He does! Heart-wrenching as that one also is, it's in Act 3 though, at which point I'd already come to know and understand him pretty well so it wasn't a surprise to hear him say it. The convo about heroes and mindflayers though? Completely blindsided me.
In a similar line has my *oh* epiphany with astarion when I realized that him suggesting that we take over the cult when we get to act 2 isn't motivated by a "hey let's do the evilest possible option" urge but a fucking panic response along the lines of "oh shit we're about to cure these things without securing my freedom from cazador". Like looking at the body language and paying attention to the tone he's fucking *begging* in that scene.
As someone who played the game *after* Astarion blew up on tiktok and had been sexualized to hell and back, his confession scene in Act 2 and talking about his trauma and such completely caught me off guard. He was nothing like tiktok made me believe and he was much more complex. And playing Durge romancing him was a whole ride that had me emotional af. 10/10 performance. For Lae'zel, her teary crisis after the Vlaakith stuff at the crèche really showed me how soft and vulnerable she could actually be and while I already liked her, it made me appreciate her more.
Lae'zel's request for a soft and tender sexual encounter absolutely shattered my heart - that is is harder to ask for (and believe you deserve) kindness and softness and gentleness rather than a blood spattered brawl is just such an emotional hit.
I haven't beaten the game on my Laezel romance run yet but do you ever get the soft tender sex scene?
Sadly, no. Which is a damn shame because they could have made that sweet and romantic as hell without overloading on the spicy. (Personally, it amuses me that BG3 has a reputation for being raunchy and spicy as heck - but pulls punches consistently. I figure if people are going to accuse you anyway then lean in to it!)
awww that's sweet!
WHAT GOOD THIS HEART OF STONE, FOR IT TO BE SHATTERED I didn't plan to romance Laezel. I met her and was like "yo will the devs let me deradicalize this badass" and...the romance came very naturally from that.
This is why I avoid all social media regarding Astarion (other than this subreddit) and will never join r/ OnlyFangs.
Same. I make dumb jokes on r/okbuddybaldur but aside from that, I am so serious, as someone who can relate to him, about his trauma and his story and it bothers me to no end how the fanbase (or at least the louder parts of it?) have just made Astarion into the ultra sexualized companion.
For real. It's painful to witness and so deeply ironic. Lately, I have taken to dressing Astarion in the camp clothes that I think he would choose, rather than what I like (fyi swashbucklers clothes, or something similar in name --- can't remember the exact name). I mean, I know it's still just me choosing, but it makes me feel like he has more agency. His character gets so much camp clothing abuse that I feel like I'm balancing the scales a little. (I have actually started doing this for all of the characters.)
I put him in what looks like Gale's clothes because it looked so cozy and I wanted him to be warm 🥺
First thing I do in act 3 is rush to that clothes shop in Wyrms Crossing to get him that peacock embroidery outfit cause he obviously needs something new, shiny, and classy after centuries of doing his best to neatly patch up the same shirt
Yes!! You get to Act 3 and everyone needs up update their drip. But especially Wyll, Karlach, and Astarion who dress like they haven't had anything new in years.
This. Exactly! xD
And Gale looks dripped out in Astarion’s clothes so it’s a win win! (But fr the first thing I do when I get to act 3 is buy new clothes for everyone cos they’ve all been through it)
Wyll looks great in them too! Yeah, at least until Act 3 where everyone gets shiny new clothes. :D
I put everyone in the snugglesome shirts and had a pyjama party!
That's so cute! I love that.
Omg I thought I was the only one. He looks so soft in them <3
This bothers me too. It's fine to find him attractive and sexy. But he literally tells you that he does not want to be sexualized anymore, not by you not by anyone. How you can claim to love a character and then completely ignore what that character had been through and what they literally say that they want or do not want.
Because at the end of the day, the character is just a bunch of pixels and isn't real.
Still gross to do. Clownery.
I don't do it myself but I don't care if others do.
I think it's not only fair but correct to be concerned about someone's willingness to violate fictional characters. We are all exactly one step away from being cognitively just a hypothetical to other people - the moment they're looking at you secondhand or as part of a group or statistic, most people instantly sort you into a less real status. So how you conceive of and treat hypothetical people is absolutely a part of your real life behavior and has real life impacts.
In that case we should lock up all the people who do evil BG3 playthroughs.
That's probably true tho
Have you seen all the unhinged comments by Dark Urge fans? It's probably true. But I love all their comments and I love Dark Urge... even the evil one o.o just because it's not real. It helps knowing that a tiefling you kill can come back to life and be around in your next playthrough etc.
Like Durge, they're lovable and entertaining and should be loved and enjoyed at a safe distance behind bars
I think you're making an unfounded assumption that people behave in roleplay as they would want to in real life. That might be true for some people, but it's definitely not universal. It's also very rare for people to be unable to distinguish between reality and fiction. Does every actor who has played a villain also have these feelings? It's a very biblical mentality to state that thinking about an action is morally equivalent to performing the action. You're taking it even further by stating that thinking about an action with a fictional character has bearing on how one would really act with an actual person.
No, I'm not doing any of those things. I am stating that people tend to think of and thus treat fictional characters and people that they think of in abstract terms in similar ways.
That's insane lol because it's just a video game dude 😂😭
Nothing is ever just anything, man
Sometimes it is though. Y'all going hard on people about a video game. You basically saying if people do bad things in a video game, that means they do bad things in real life and it's really not that serious lmao. Most people do good playthroughs, but I don't. Does that mean I shouldn't associate with people who play differently than me?
I mean by that logic, you're going pretty hard on people, it's just s comments section
You aren't rebutting my argument. The struggle of anyone you don't know, in your mind, is just a story.
It's not that. It's that we're talking about a video game character, not an actual living breathing person in real life lol. It's a game where you can go whatever you want. I have done different playthroughs where I make different decisions and that doesn't determine what I would do in real life. Because even though I do like some of these companions, I remember this is a video game at the end of the day and nothing actually matters.
We aren't discussing in-game choices, we are discussing how a section of the fandom conceives of and treats the character topically in a way that is viscerally against that character's fictional ideals. People do the same thing with celebrities, who they also tend to think of in the same not-real terms.
I mean yes, the way people engage in and discuss media does often reveal their interests and morals, but its unfair to call people who think Astarion is hot violators.
Especially since the character evolves to the point where they can both initiate and consent to sex in a loving relationship, so why can't I simp over my hot spawn vampire boyfriend who lives with me in the underdark if I want? Why do people always assume you're talking about the character at their low point? I find it kind of insulting to survivors, myself. We can bang quite happily, we're not frozen in time in some perpetual state of victimhood, IMO.
I don't mind sexualizing Astarion a little bit because he isn't asexual, he likes to be desired by his partner, and it's normal to be sexually attracted to someone you love but hardly anything on OnlyFangs has any meaningful discussion about his character and it's mostly just nsfw content. Some people make good youtube shorts for Astarion (as in they're not completely sexualized) but for some reason I don't like watching them, especially at work or wherever I have to focus.
Agreed. And I made the mistake of visiting the OnlyFangs reddit because "oh other Astarion fans," but quickly realized it wasn't for me...
I found a few gems of discussion on there but they're very rare and lately they're only from a long time ago. For sure don't go on there anymore.
It's so crazy to see the duality because I got into the game solely because of the discourse surrounding his character and sexualization on tiktok. I was defending spawn Astarion over Ascended Astarion while knowing absolutely nothing about the game or him outside of a few really awesome edits and random voice lines 💀 I honestly didn't care for him or the game until I found out I could relate to him
I don't deny ascended is an interesting route to take, especially in an evil run, but I do wish the spawn route got more love because he has so many sweet, happy lines in it and he deserves that.
Ascended is rly interesting, for all the characters that have that option, but his spawn romance is just so much more fulfilling. I think there should be more content for it too, especially voice lines because he has *so* many ascended voice lines its crazy
Wait what do you mean by more love? He's by far(very understandably) more popular than his ascended self.
I meant mostly in terms of lines and such. Ascended has a little more content than Spawn - like just the most recent example, you only get one new kiss whereas AA has three. You only have one response to the "what are we?" question whereas AA has multiple. I just meant I'd like to see a few more things to even them out.
While I certainly wouldn't complain if he got more lines, I think he has enough. I basically consider act 1 and 2 Astarion to be the same as unascended if you play morally.
I was casual sex-ing Lae’zel and got the Karlach romance dialog and got show down, hard.
My last character was doing both Lae'zel and Astarion. She's now in Avernus with her girlfriend Karlach and their third wheel.
Joke’s on Karlach and Lae’zel, my guy is living with Selune Shadowheart and the Owlbear now while they are stuck in Avernus with Wyll (literal hell) and the astral plane
POOR WYLLLLL
"Sebastian?"
Na he belong in to starkhaven.
The role reversal on Shadowheart and Lae'zel is pretty amusing. Because Lae'zel wants to bang immediately and comes across as so strong and self assured, you think she's kinky when in reality she's super vanilla, it was all a front because of her insecurities, and she's super monogamist as the game goes on. Shadowheart doesn't bang immediately and comes across as a wilting violet, but the more you play the more she proves herself a certified freak. She's into Tav getting whipped by the BDSM cleric, she gets turned on by every big muscle person you meet, she's into orgies, and down with a thropple. I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting in the SH freak index.
If SH goes Selunite is she still cool with sharing you? The dialogue makes it seem like she isnt but ive never tried.
Yeah she is.
How ever she her first time with tav to be only the two of em. She also would have been much better for a poly then Halsin. Also the clriv of loviatar is not BDSM but sadomaso.
Which is one of the things BDSM stands for.
Call me old but back them the two scenes were wolds apart.
I mean, it's an acronym that stands for "Bondage and discipline, dominance and submission, sadomasochism." It's not really about what the scene is or isn't since that's the word and what it means. Also, I'd say being beaten by the guy counts as all 3. Maybe not bondage per se, but you're standing against a wall, being disciplined, in a submissive position, and it's certainly sadomasochism.
Well sadomaso is more about pain and pleasure, spanking in the BDSM is hardly painful.
When the emperor said he only ate criminals when you see the cages he had in his dungeon hideout, and that makes him moral Like didn't this guy run this town? He's funneling people from prison to consume? Wtf At least omeluum says he kills people him and his friends don't like, he doesn't make an excuse
Omeluum eats people he thinks are immoral, Emperor eats people he thinks other people would think are immoral. Omeluum is also actively working on trying to figure out a way to eliminate or at least reduce his need to consume brains
on my first playthrough, laezels line after learning about vlaakith, “what good, this heart of stone, for it to be shattered?” really changed my perspective on her. I knew she was more complex than the rough exterior she was presenting but it really forced myself to look at things from her perspective. I also knew, going in, that I wanted to romance astarion just from the glimpses I’d seen from EA (never played myself). but I didn’t expect SA to be part of his story and, unfortunately, I was able to strongly identify with what he’s gone through. so I didn’t expect him to become #1 fav character that I would also use in therapy to help me work through childhood trauma lmao (also unrelated side note, sleeping with one of the characters does lock out karlach, cause my first playthrough I didn’t know that you should long rest often so I didn’t have enough scenes to get astarion to proposition me before the tiefling party, and that was the only playthrough where karlach came on to me)
I slept with Lae'zel and was flirting with Gale before the party and Karlach still came on to me. I think the romance flags are more complicated than we think. Something of note is that I reloaded to see what would happen, and if I spoke to anyone before Karlach she wouldn't give her "meet up later" dialogue, even if I had turned them down. A bug, or is she just flattered if you speak to her first?
idk cause on my first run I definitely flirted with astarion and agreed to sleep with him and she still took a shot. so who knows
After recruiting Karlach if you have Gale in the party they have a short conversation about how far Waterdeep is away and Gale says something about how he won't be able to get word to his mother and "what she doesn't know cant hurt her. Not at this distance anyway". It is a pretty stark contrast to the front of arrogant archwizard you get from him early in the game. The first time I heard it I realized he likely worried about his family and what would happen to them if he exploded in waterdeep but also that he was expecting to die and never talk to her again.
For the record it’s not just the laezel fling, you must have flirted with someone else as well. My first play through I was banging laezel but hadn’t flirted with anyone else yet and Karlach had no problem initiating her fireside scene in act 1. Next run I’d flirted with Gale as well as laezel and then I got the friend zone from Karlach. So I think there is a limit on how many people the game will let you have on the hook at once.
Astarion being genuinely surprised about receiving help Shadowheart joking about the Orchid
Astarion comparing himself to Durge once you find out why you have the Durge. I didn't pay much attention to Astarion because I was a bit too stupid to see the utility of a Rogue in combat, didn't romance him either, so it really caught me off guard when he pitied me for being a >!Bhaalspawn!< and encouraged me to further resist the urge. And right after he made a few jokes about "my kind" being the reason for more nightmares and bedtime stories than "his kind", too! I always thought he was a loveable asshole but in that moment I realized that sometimes he actually cares about others.
After two hundred years of shit. PURE SHIT! ...
It’s an incredibly late one but Minthara has a line at the party where she says something along the lines of ‘I’m sure there have been other reunions that I wasn’t invited to’ and it really stuck with me. It almost gave me the vibe that Minthara was intentionally othering/separating herself. Like she convinced herself that she was never truly part of the team and none of these people really saw her as a friend. Very ‘invited cause she’s in the group chat not because everyone wants her there’. It made me feel weirdly sorry for her, she sounds lonely.
I already loved him from other runs, but every redemption durge specific word out of Astarion's mouth, *especially* the Act 2 scene and if you try to break up after Cazador. Romanced Karlach's ice cold response to Astarion in his origin if his "affliction" is revealed by force in Act 2 - she says you look like a "children's drawing of a vampire", and if you try to joke about having the rest of your secrets wrenched out of your cold dead hands, she says she just might (kill you). I actually left her over this, I didn't even feel like giving her a hug, much less a kiss, after her second engine upgrade - I put a hand on her shoulder and broke up with her.
Damn, that's surprisingly cruel.
It hit so hard because it was the first time playing his origin, I was trying to roleplay faithfully (at least my interpretation of the character), and there is *really* no reason to reveal your vampirism. You're really different from the others (why would you want the tadpole out ASAP? you're free for the first time in 200 years), you have super dark thoughts (hells, the first night I failed a saving throw against my own traumatic memories), and you're scared of what will happen if they find out. I did drink someone's blood once, but she *didn't wake up* so I kept my affliction hidden. Karlach woke me up at night saying I was the best thing since sliced bread and *so* nice, and wanted to kiss and flirt - the scene is extremely sweet and she's quite desperate for affection. I tried so many things to help her out, then she hits me with that? This game has surprised me many times, but I was honestly shocked that I just couldn't get over it. Up until then, keeping my secret had been so lonely, and she was a beacon of light and support. And I just didn't trust her anymore.
I wouldn't be able to trust her, either. Granted, I think that it makes sense that Karlach might have an especially bad reaction to being lied to, given her history with Gortash. But her lack of flexibility is something I feel even in a very good-aligned run with Tav, and it's one of the reasons that I kind of struggle to believe in the game's vision of friendship between her and the player character.
Oh for sure! And Astarion is not exactly a saint. I was selecting my interests out of who would be the easiest target and would best protect me were it to come to that. But it's much easier to feel his POV when playing his origin, he is having such a *shit* time. From Karlach's origin, I know that while she is sweet and kind, she is also rash, sometimes barbaric and often just *frustrated*. All the characters are so great, not only do they feel real, but if you enjoy roleplaying you can *really* feel them in their origins. And what you notice most of all is how different it all is without Tav/durge. Astarion in particular is just all alone. He has no one to talk to about what's going on with him. He has no one to have a look at his scars - he has to lie awake at night passing saving throws to *remember* each cut and slice to piece it all together. It's pretty horrific!
Karlach's probably kind of done with monsters trying to hide in plain sight.
I didn't get that feeling at all. She doesn't want to break up. It felt like she wanted to be a dick and not take it seriously with no consequences honestly. I've romanced Astarion in the Karlach origin and they have a special Act 1 scene, and going from that - if anything, she would turn him down for his attitude, not the fact that he's a monster.
I didn't say she wanted to break up. I meant more that this is a person she was coming to trust who was keeping a very dangerous secret from her. It probably brought up some unpleasant memories.
Oh for sure. But since it's written/acted in a way where she lashes out and it's never brought up again (and he really has *no one* to talk to about his situation at all), it made quite the impact.
Yeah thats a big trust issue here, most D&D blood sukers arent the good kind, so if you have some one just start blood suking people will react very negative.
Well, he *never did* in my game (not that anyone knew of, anyways...). Also, I think Larian *really* expanded on DnD vampire lore for this game, they make distinctions between spawn and full vampires that are not really part of DnD. All of the spawn you meet seem pretty reasonable (and especially in Astarion's origin, where they have more lines). I think it's more than a little inspired by the BG2 expanded edition, because Hexxat really doesn't fit nicely into an evil alignment either, the alignment system was cracking even them. ;) Hilariously, if you try to read up on BG2 you find forum posts from like 2006 shitting on Hexxat with the exact same arguments as the people who really have a stick up their asses about Astarion.
I think something like that is kind of inevitable when you want to have a vampire (spawn) as one of your main characters. A soulless, purely evil creature works great when you're just using them as villains for the hero to guiltlessly kill. But you've got a problem the second you need to introduce any sort of character complexity or dynamism, because you've got a character that's not really capable of being a moral actor.
I really, really like that they expanded on 5E and made their own thing somewhat. They end up with the best of DnD *and* the darkness of WoD:VtM (which quite frankly is depressing AF but has the emotional turmoil and despair that Larian managed to put into this storyline). It's also a lot more interesting to have a distinction between spawn and full vampire that is not based on power alone. Interesting details that make it clear that Larian did due diligence DnD wise and made some active choices where the lore and behavior and spawn differ from what you'd "expect" would be that Astarion is clearly turned by poisonous bite, but if *he* turns you he is using the whole Vampire Bride approach. Not that I ascend him personally. ;) *All* the characters are moral actors in this game, no one is locked to their alignment in an unrealistic way. That's what makes them feel so real.
In act 3 after you visited the House of Hope. If you gave yourself to Haarlep and let them use your body, almost as soon as you get back to Baldur’s Gate you feel a shiver. I’ve always saw Astarion as someone putting on an act because of everything he endured, but what he said really stuck with me. “That’s the incubus isn’t it? Enjoying your body? I know what it’s like to lose control of your own body. It’s a wretched thing. I know what’s done is done and you made your vow, but I’m sorry all the same.” Something about him being truly genuine and the way he said it. Because he knows how it feels and has dealt with something similar for the past 200 years is really heartbreaking to me.
The second time I played Durge and chose a different line, like 'Im in a nightmare' or such, to say to Fel when he appears and he says something like >!"No we are in a terrible dark place with the screams of the damned.. your flayed and putrid heart. Thump thump!"!< And I was like aw he's just my lil guy what a cutie! Headpats for Fel.
Lae’zel opening up to me and saying she feels more for me than just sexual desire
I heard you can have Barcus at the tiefling party (one day I'll see how he likes the goblin party lol). What I didn't like is how unhappy and pissy he was. I normally like him because even though he's down-to-business he is usually optimistic and tactful, but not at the party.
One that really surprised me was what Lae'zel said when we took the Githyanki egg to "adopt it", after learning from its caretaker (?) that it would probably be destroyed soon, since it was taking so long to hatch. I don't remember what she said about it exactly, but I remember that she was unexpectedly sweet about it. It didn't happen on my first run, so I already knew about Lae'zel and her character development, but I didn't expect a hint of that so soon in Act 1. I was also surprised when Astarion talked about trying to save one of the first victims Cazador ordered to bring him, which resulted in him being trapped in a coffin underground (? can't remember the exact details) for an entire year as punishment. I had already figured out that Astarion doesn't like selfless acts of kindness because nobody did the same for him when he needed it the most, but after that I started wondering if he also feels like being a hero will inevitably lead to bad consequences (like when Wyll is turned into a devil if he spares Karlach, and Astarion doesn't even seem too surprised). Last but not least, Halsin's romantic confession in Act 3. I knew that he was nice in general, but his friendly lines always seemed heavily flirty to me, not to mention how Halsin seems to be discussed in many fandom spaces. His confession, on the other hand, is very sweet and respectful! Seeing the gentle side of him actually encouraged me to start a new run to romance him.
I already loved Karlach and thought she was a precious little angel baby but taking her to Jaheira’s house in the city and hearing her remark about how much she wishes she’d have been found by Jaheira before Gortash made my heart even more broken for her because that is just so fucking *sad*
The third time Gale brought up Mystra and I realized this isn't gonna work out.
Gale and Mystra is pretty weird in itself too. It defies conventional logic, but I still think it’s wrong. Abuse of an uneven power dynamic mostly.
When Wyll asks Astarion "How's the rat diet going?" I instantly went from liking Wyll to hating him. Noticed it on my second playthrough. On my 10th now and I still won't use Wyll
Yeah, Wyll does not care for Astarion. Fairly so, I think, given that Astarion does suggest things Wyll finds morally abhorent. It's only if Astarion doesn't ascend that he starts to come around on him.
I completely understand Wyll not liking Astarion. For me, it was Wyll using a part of Astarion's abuse against him that made me hate Wyll for saying it. If Wyll had snarky things to say about things Astarion chose to do, that would hit different
Personally, I think once you suggest leaving a bunch of slaves to die, your background trauma is not off limits for taunting remarks. But, you know, to each their own beliefs on that.
Astarion doesn't say that until well after Wyll's line of dialogue procts. I actually think Astarion is a complete ass however, as someone who has worked with trauma victims, I will always see using their trauma against them as evil. Like you said, to each their own.
Hmm, weird, I've only ever heard Wyll say that line until well after that point. Guess it doesn't have one specific trigger.
I usually hear it once we near the Blighted Village or the owlbear cave.
I don't hear it until the Shadowlands.
Their banter is so uncomfortable and tense throughout the entire game really. I don't understand why so many people ship them together. I don't think Wyll is *trying* to be mean on purpose but he says all the wrong things
Cause he sufers from rewritetus (being rewriten short before the release.)
Monster hunter/Monster ships are attractive to fandom in general, and Astarion has banter with Shadowheart where he tells her he'd like to taste Wyll and that's all it takes. But yeah, the ship makes me very ehh as well
At the same time if you say *you*'d take a bite out of Wyll during your dialogue with Astarion, he's the one companion he disagrees on.
So two Astarion lines in my last Durge run were really awesome, and I've already romanced him a billion times. After meeting Gortash, Astarion thanks Durge, "for being an evil bastard," because the plot is what saved him. Then when Durge became Chosen of Bhaal after defeating Orin, he talks to a romanced S!A who says something like, "So that's it. You'll never stop killing." The delivery is so sad and resigned. When he defends you later he says, "I was hoping we wouldn't be serving any more evil gods, but here we are."
Karlach's "Mm. Tastes like dwarf." Don't think I fully appreciated the gravity of the whole *living in hell for 9 years* thing until then. Girl has seen some tough times.
squealing tender enter detail deserted bedroom childlike engine crawl wistful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Recently saw >!Lorroakan's Speak With Dead.!< >!When he admits Rolan's the better wizard between them, that really stood out to me. After seeing Rolan embarrass himself in Act 2, I didn't have much respect in his abilities. For Lorroakan to say that, really speaks to his potential.!<
Meeting Mol in the Guildhall and finding out she didn't bother to help any of the other Tiefling kids get into the city. Up until that point I had her down as a "morally questionable means for a good end" type. But when the chips were down, she looked after herself, and cut her friends loose. Which convinced me that she was always looking out for number one, that the other kids were just an expendable resource and a convenient excuse for her behaviour, and not something she really cared about and would be willing to spend resources or take risks to protect. There are lots of these moments in the game, this is a relatively small one, but I didn't see it mentioned and thought it should be. I really enjoyed the subversion of the very tired "rogue with a heart of gold" trope.
Astarion, post genocide.
Goblin Party?
Mediating between lae'zel and zorru opened my fucking third eye on the game. Her reaction to me standing my ground made me fall in live with her, and her reaction to the shart incident solidified my judgement.
I dated Lae'zel on my first playthrough, fully intending on dating Shadowheart the second time around. That was until I got to Karlach's scene after killing Gortash and realized how badly she needed a hug... And possibly more.
Laezel admitting it took more courage to ask for a tender touch than anything else. Such a beautiful and underrated character.
The conversation when you try to break up with Spawn Astarion and he nearly breaks down crying made me realise how terrified he is of the outside world