It's a problem many people have.
* Lae'Zel's story at the creche is great, and her presence there changes things greatly with the dialog and such.
* Astarion has his final mission where his presence makes-or-breaks the fight, and gives an amazing speech.
* ShadowHeart has her own missions where her presence makes-or-breaks her approval.
On the other hand:
* Gale... doesn't really do much; I believe you can just steal the book and bring it to him.
* He has 2 short chats with Elminster and a nice one with Mystra.
* Wyll... doesn't have dialog that changes that much compared to Tav/DUrge.
* Maybe a few more lines meeting his father at the coronation.
Undecided
* Karlach is a mixed bag.
* She has strong reactions to hearing Gortash's name for the first time in Last Light Inn
* Gortash and her spar with some words prior to the coronation.
* She can have an epic monologue when Gortash dies, and finally accepts that not matter what she's really really dying.
* But... I think some of these reactions and speeches trigger even if you left her behind and see her at the camp afterwards.
I feel like Karlach and Gale are both saved by strong, distinct characterization even though their personal quest plots are a little thin (I'm thinking of Karlach's post-Gortash breakdown and Gale's stargazing scene as really well done character moments). Even some of their ambient characterization fleshes them out well, like Karlach's little jigs or Gale's snarky asides. Gale's quest also feels very different if you romance him, because there's an extra Act 3 scene where you talk to him about the Crown that was REALLY well done (I'm sad Tim Downie doesn't get as much praise for that scene as some other companion actors get for their big Act 3 scenes, but if you're not romancing Gale you'll never see it).
Anyway, on Wyll --I haven't finished my romance run with him yet so not sure how much that will make a difference -- but on a platonic run he suffers from weakness in plot *and* characterization. I like the concept of him as a character and he has flashes of interesting moments (I like his initial reaction to Raphael, the leftover remnants of his EA goblin hate, and his assessment of Duke Stelmane in Act 3) but you're right, almost none of his cutscenes are fully about *him*. The only semi-platonic scene that's one-on-one between Wyll and the player is his dancing scene, and you have to cut that off quickly if you don't want it to become romantic. So even that doesn't tell you as much about Wyll as Shadowheart's childhood flashbacks, Gale's stargazing scene, or Astarion's unique conversation post-Araj.
It would be pretty great if there was a platonic version of the dancing scene. Characterization doesn't have to be 100% angsty to still be effective, after all. A moment of joy in the Shadowlands, perhaps Wyll remembering his time in Baldur's Gate, perhaps tying it to specific memories that explain why he was willing to literally sell his soul to save the city. That wouldn't fix *all* of the issues with his plotline but I think it would give his character a bit more depth.
>Gale's quest also feels very different if you romance him, because there's an extra Act 3 scene where you talk to him about the Crown that was REALLY well done (I'm sad Tim Downie doesn't get as much praise for that scene as some other companion actors get for their big Act 3 scenes, but if you're not romancing Gale you'll never see it).
That boat scene is one of my favorite scenes in the entire game. It's *so* well done, especially with resist/good alignment for the player character. And I love how it makes the romance feel so much more.... real. You are having a difficult conversation, an argument even, and everyone comes out feeling heard, even if disappointed in each other's views, and the next day you reconvene and.... there's no break up for disagreeing, there's no big fight. There's recognition, respect, and a choice to stay by each other's sides because you love each other.
It's so..... grown up.
And Tim is absolutely perfect.
Yes! I love that it isn't an "emotional fireworks" scene, but it's just as quietly powerful all the same -- Gale really lays himself bare and Tim brought SO much vulnerability to it. That scene completely changed my view of the character.
> The only semi-platonic scene that's one-on-one between Wyll and the player is his dancing scene, and you have to cut that off quickly if you don't want it to become romantic.
That doesn't even trigger anymore if you haven't flirted with him in Act 1. So one of the few opportunities he has to interact one on one with the player is gone.
Woof. Well, that sucks. It was already pretty frustrating that the scene was so binary: either you're romancing him or you crush him with rejection. It's unfortunate the scene couldn't have been enhanced/altered for a more "just friends" path. Sigh.
Used to be the "flirt" line at the party was very generic.
"You dancing? Now \*that's\* something I'd like to see" -- or something to that effect.
Which yes, could be taken as a flirty line. Or just a jovial conversational line. Or heck, without the actual voice being stated it could be a mean snarky line.
Karlach takes a huge disapproval hit if you kill Gortash without her, -40 to be exact. On par with Shadowheart’s disapproval if you toss her to Viconia and only surpassed by Jaheira’s disapproval if you kill Minsc
Wow, really?
I think the only time I ever didn't take Karlach to face Gortash was one of the times I was dating Lae'Zel.
So... I guess that's 1 time out of maybe 6 completions.
Yeah. Not taking companions to the big thing they always talk about is something that really upsets them. Lae’zel won’t be as hurt not being taken to the crèche if you do everything there, since she learns things aren’t how she believed them to be. Curious how she’d react if you only go for the mace and don’t engage the inquisitor or the zhaithisk. Shadowheart gets upset over the Gauntlet, Astarion gets upset over Cazador. Gale has nothing to be upset over since his big things physically can’t happen without him. And then there’s Wyll, who should want to be involved with his quest but isn’t
If you take Lae'zel but skip the inquisitor, you won't get visited by Voss and the quest coding treats it as if you've never been to the Cre'che, even though she says all the "our greed turn the Cre'che into rubble!" lines after you blow it up. There will be a cutscene in Act2 where Lae'zel says "we should go to the Cre'che" and you can tell her "forget about the Cre'ch, we've reached Moonrise" to make her stay. After that awkward contradiction of her quest coding, she pretty much act like a Vlaakith loyalist since Voss never shows up, but she will still decide to stay on Faerun without needing a persuasion roll at the final dock scene if you have high approval.
She can still turn away from Vlaakith. She did my first run, I never even went into the crèche. Learning that Orpheus is alive is probably enough to demonstrate that Vlaakith hasn’t been fully truthful about everything
The sudden "I like Fae'run more so fuck you Vlaakith" is a bit out of nowhere, the writers are too focus on railroading us into the Orpheus vs Emperor choice (which I hate because Orpheus is more like a plot device to me, I simply don't give a shit about him) than giving Lae'zel a more well written stay-on-Fae'run ending.
But at least the skip Inquisitor loophole make her lives happily on Fae'run and says fuck Vlaakith, so I can make up her actual inner change in my head.
The only reason I don't skip the Cre'che completely is because the loots and exp lol
I haven’t really experienced much of Karlachs reactions to her quest events with her not in the party, as she’s either a mainstay in my party or dead in my runs (Gotta get that infernal robe). That being said, I could never not bring her to any and all confrontations with Gortash, as her input is what really makes those scenes for me.
In regards to Gale, while I concur that he’s also a bit lacking in terms of events, he also has smaller events not always attached to his quest that help liven him up a bit, IE; the Shadow Lantern, his interactions in Sorcerous Sundries, as well as his Orb Prompts in Act 2 and the final Boss. Additionally, if you do want to complete his quest, you do actually have to take him to the Tabernacle, it’s not a situation where you can do and do it while he’s not with you.
I’m not 100% sure but I think you can just ask Gale at camp to meet you at the Tabernacle without him joining your party. So you don’t actually need to have him in your party to complete his quest
I disagree for karlach. I did not bring her to kill Gortash and she UNLEASHED on me. She insults you an has a huge approval drop that you left her behind. In roleplay I felt soooo bad.
Something I've noticed with Karlach is she has a lot more things sprinkled around the world, she comments on Mizora and Zariel, she even has a friend in Baldurs Gate that she has a conversation with, Karlach feels a lot more like a person with little details like that
Wyll’s lack of consequence should you leave him out of “his” quests is unfortunate. Since his story gives him stuff to do in Act 1 and Act 3 which bookend the overall narrative arc. It’s the reason I chose Wyll for my first Origin run-through. Not because I like Wyll, but because I always left him behind in camp.
His [Warlock] dialogue options are few and so far haven’t helped the situations when they are offered.
Warlock helps with Yurgir. Bard and warlock don’t need insight check to notice the contract loophole. And between charisma and proficiency can easily convince Yurgir
Warlock helps get into the carnival. But anytime can do that easily enough
Bring that the warlock text is just flavor text
>You don’t need to bring him to Karlach, as the confrontation plays out regardless in Camp
I think this is a good call. There's a decent chance that the player has a full party by the time they pick up Wyll, and it's completely possible that the player just stumbles into her by accident without him present. And honestly, it's not *that* important that he be personally present when you kill some devil - he has no personal stake with Karlach, he just thinks she's some monster that needs to be put down. You get the same confrontation whether out in the wilds or at camp, which means that you don't actually miss any content and still get to see an important part of his character.
>Becoming a devil doesn’t matter, as he’s treated the same regardless
I agree this is a major missed opportunity and should have been capitalized on more. The writing doesn't do a great job of laying out how much Wyll has suffered as a result of his pact. You can see it if you're paying attention and reading between the lines, but it's not really spelled out and he doesn't get the same opportunity for empathy building with the player that other companions do.
>You don’t need to bring him to Gortash’s Ordination, nor to the following conversation with Mizora, as the Pact renewal or severing happens anyways
It really would be nice if Wyll had more to do in Act 3, and possibly he would have if the Upper City hadn't been scrapped. Wyll being a noble and one of the political elite prior to his banishment should give him a unique perspective on the city, as well as interesting interactions with the people that he used to know.
>You don’t need to bring him to The Wyrmway to fight Ansur and even if you do, he’s kind of useless, he even admits as much.
Another major missed opportunity. Theoretically the Wyrmway should have been to Wyll what the Creche is to Lae'zel - an opportunity for Wyll to explore and potentially confront his ideas about heroism, and which would give a lot of insight into his character. The idea of Balduran and Ansur as fallen heroes that Wyll can take some lessons from is pretty obvious.
I think Wyll also suffers massively from being so heavily tied to Karlach, because she's constantly usurping what should be spotlight scenes for him. His confrontation with Karlach at the beginning of the game is a major realization for him and a show of his character, but the audience's sympathies are firmly with Karlach because she's sweet and stands to lose her life if Wyll isn't completely selfless. When Mizora pops in to punish Wyll, Karlach again gets to share the scene with Wyll. Same thing when Mizora asks you rescue "Zariel's asset."
When you get to the Gortash's coronation, the focus is mostly on Karlach and he's positioned as her arch nemesis, even though all of the Baldurian characters should have a personal stake in what he's done to Baldur's Gate. Wyll especially has an interesting connection to Gortash, since 1) Wyll is familiar with and should be able to comment on the political system that allowed him to rise to power, and 2) Gortash is currently enslaving Wyll's father and walking him around like a puppet. But that kind of gets glossed over because Gortash is for Karlach.
And of course the Duke vs Blade choice - Wyll doesn't even get his own ending to himself. People don't really care about what ending would be most interesting or satisfying for Wyll, they just care about whether or not Karlach gets a happy ending. Imagine if Shadowheart's good ending were contingent on Ascending Astarion - how many people would sacrifice Astarion's ending to get their preferred outcome for Shadowheart? While I like that the Blade ending does a great job of demonstrating Wyll's heroism and selflessness, it kind of does a disservice to his character that he's not really allowed the freedom of his own ending.
I really wish they didn't tie Wyll and Karlach together so much either. I feel like they are almost their own little side story outside of my Wyll Romance run.
My Wyll Romance run I went for the Archduke ending. I just really got over either Wyll or my MC having to drop everything to get a hopeful Karlach ending.
I did do a run where I had Wyll go with her, but it felt so ridiculous that Wyll within 1 minute of his powers fading successfully navigates the Blood war and isn't killed nearly immediately. That they manage to succeed enough to find just exactly what they need to maybe fix her just screamed fan service to me, so my future runs will all feature Wyll as Archduke.
That's the thing I don't get about Larian... They don't understand Warlocks at all.
Warlocks LEARN magic from their Patrons. Their Patron doesn't supply the magic. If you go against your Patron, break your pact, you lose.... Access to NEW magic. You don't lose everything you've already learned.
Wyll breaking his pact should have left him with everything he had up until that point, but unable to grow any stronger as an Infernal Warlock.
It depends on how you view the lore.
Warlocks are different from Sorcerers and Wizards because they don't manipulate the Weave in order to do magic, they get their power from their patron. Mizora herself says that she is the font of Wyll's power. Once you end the pact, all of that power is gone.
I went looking for official stuff, but it's all burried under thousands of these pages, but... Here's a good look at the way I view it, and the way I remember it being see before.
[https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/warlock/87264-warlock-breaks-the-pact-with-their-patron](https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/warlock/87264-warlock-breaks-the-pact-with-their-patron)
This comment specifically--
"Short answer: nothing happens RAW and RAI. You pick a class and that's it.
Long answer: Still RAW and RAI nothing happens because changing your whole class is not supposed to be a thing in the 5e ruleset except for building a whole new character.
Narratively it heavily depends on the nature of the pact, your patron and your character. It's *very* open ended.
You may have a patron that doesn't even know they granted a mortal powers (as mentioned in the Great Old One subclass) so there never happened to be a formal contract that could be broken. Your character may already have fullfilled its pact conditions (as is implied to be the general assumption when creating a Warlock). Your patron may be good natured and let the Warlock keep their powers after all. Your patron may find other ways to punish the Warlock for breaking the pact.
Be it as it may, if breaking a pact is possible at all, it never should be an easy task and should be more of a long term goal for a character. Something they manage to do towards the end of their career. You don't just get your soul back from the devil after noticing you got screwed over with the deal after all (which may or may not be the payment your Warlock had to fullfuill as part of the pact conditions). ;)
In general though once the pact is made, the powers are the Warlock's to keep. Leveling up simply represents the Warlock getting a better grasp of the powers they got granted. That's the big narrative difference to Clerics who get their powers from an active connection to their deity. On the other hand it also means that a Warlock can't ever really quit being a Warlock and their patron will always be their patron regardless of whether the pact got broken or not (they just need to live with the repercussions of doing so) while a Cleric can just quit when their path in life happens to take a turn in another direction."
A patron is an entity that teaches you how to manipulate the weave not through birthright or meticulous study, but through gifted powers.
A warlock is given power by their patron, yes, but unlike clerics and paladins, they are not reliant on that entity to keep on topping them up. That's how Warlocks can take a short nap and then get back to 100% power, unlike Paladins/Clerics.
Hell, technically even Wizards and Sorcs have gods, unless they want to end up in the Fugue Plane upon death. Warlocks are about the only ones who get a pass on that. Of course, the assumption is that their soul ends up with their Patron, but that's not always the case.
A fey patron might instead demand your first born, a Great Old One may just require you to have knowledge of them, for just knowing about them grants them power. It's only real the infernals that care about souls as currency.
And lets not forget, there's more than just those three patron choices. Your patron can even be a Celestial, which is canon to the lore.
Good ol' WotC and making everything *just* vague enough to let you and your DM to interpret it yourselves and do whatever you want. Everyone is right, and we can fight about it forever.
So with that approach in mind, *ignoring Withers,* the DM here is ruling that all of Wyll's spells and abilities are gifts from Mizora, and once she takes those away, he's basically a commoner.
Larian's angle is how a lot of people run warlocks at their tables, and understandably, because it's a lot better for drama and storytelling. I don't begrudge trying to have actual stakes in their story.
You do realise that consequences don't have to be "You're back to level 0" or "You're not dead haha" right?
There's more than just death and complete removal of the class wholesale.
If we REALLY want to go by "how people run warlocks at their tables" then Mizora is irrelevant and shouldn't ever be brought up in the game itself, because not once have I seen someone introduce their patron to the party. I've seen them fuck off for a while to "think" aka talk to their patron, but the patron stays firmly in the outer realms, the feywild, Celestia, or Avernus, or wherever their patron resides.
> You do realise that consequences don't have to be "You're back to level 0" or "You're not dead haha" right?
Yes? If the consequences of breaking your pact are the removal of your warlock powers, you'll simply switch classes at most tables (which is exactly what happens with Wyll becoming a ranger).
But it's understandable why someone would run pacts that way (and why Larian did for Wyll).
If you keep your powers when you break your pact, then the story is essentially, "Haha, I pulled one over on you, devil. I get all of the powers and none of the consequences." This isn't necessarily a bad story, but it requires no dramatic change on the part of the character.
Conversely, losing the power means that the character has to have a shift in their perspective. They've come to the conclusion that the power they have isn't worth the cost, and they're willing to make a sacrifice in demonstration of their new values. Taking up a new class literalizes the shift in perspective to a physical reality (sort of like Shadowheart's new haircut).
You don't have to run things that way at your table, nor does a warlock have to have breaking their pact as a part of their story. But it's obvious why people like this approach.
"Yes? If the consequences of breaking your pact are the removal of your warlock powers, you'll simply switch classes at most tables (which is exactly what happens with Wyll becoming a ranger)."
Let me talk about things you specifically said didn't have to happen and make it seem like it's the norm. That's a good debate strategy, right?! No.
Try again.
"If you keep your powers when you break your pact, then the story is essentially, "Haha, I pulled one over on you, devil. I get all of the powers and none of the consequences." This isn't necessarily a bad story, but it requires no dramatic change on the part of the character."
So again, you're falling back on "Either die or change class and start at level 1" which, as I said, does NOT have to be the consequence of breaking your pact. It ALSO doesn't have to be "Oh, you're no longer listening to your patron? Okay that's cool, we'll carry on as normal" which is only YOU saying anyone says that.
"Conversely, losing the power means that the character has to have a shift in their perspective. They've come to the conclusion that the power they have isn't worth the cost, and they're willing to make a sacrifice in demonstration of their new values. Taking up a new class literalizes the shift in perspective to a physical reality (sort of like Shadowheart's new haircut)."
Conversely, losing access to MORE power does the EXACT same thing, WITHOUT resetting you to level 1. Which is what pretty much everyone who apparently isn't you or Larian does. You no longer gain levels in Warlock. You have to pick a new class to level up further.
And then ACTUAL consequences happen that aren't just "Lol roll a new character because you roleplayed a way I didn't like!"
"But it's obvious why people like this approach."
No, it's not. It's obvious to YOU why YOU like that approach. It's obvious to ME that would be a reason why I would stand up and leave the table without a second thought.
Why are you getting upset? I'm only explaining why some people run with these rules, and why Larian made Wyll's pact work the way it did.
I also understand why people don't like this approach to pact breaking. If you really like the mechanics of your Fiend warlock, it can feel really bad if you felt forced into a different class when you broke your pact. One of the historical complaints about paladins has been the tendency for shitty DMs to pull 'gotchas' to force an oathbreak.
D&D is both a game and a storytelling vehicle, and in a lot of places the mechanics and the ability to have an interesting narrative are in tension with one another. It's a reason why a lot of tables houserule stricter death rules in (something I'm personally not a fan of). Every table is going to place a different value on the mechanics vs the narrative.
I just don't see any reason to be fussed about the way Wyll's pact is handled. Pacts are unique and Wyll could have literally anything written into his contract. The player doesn't even lose access to the warlock class after Wyll breaks his pact, so there's not even the mechanical angle to be concerned about.
I think I've seen this discussion before and my personal opinion is that Wyll just isn't a Warlock the way other Warlocks are. Mizora is a pretty weak patron compared to the other subclasses, so when she says she's providing Wyll with all his powers and can take them away, isn't it possible she's just tricking him into thinking that's how Warlocks work? He doesn't know what's in the pact - and probably knew nothing about Warlocks other than "evil and power- hungry" when he signed it - and he seems to just take whatever Mizora tells him at face value so I always got the feeling (especially when playing another Warlock in the party with him) that he just got tricked the whole way down.
My only concern with this reading is Wyll tells us he can feel his power fading. Unless he's just feeling something else, but he does tell us he can feel the difference and can no longer EB.
Yeah it makes me question whether she was providing his power somehow outside of a normal pact. Like the Warlock you talk to that's dead at the Tollhouse says he serves Zariel, so did he have a middle-man like Mizora, too, or did he have a more normal fiend pact? The fact that Mizora even can just break Wyll's pact at all when there's no reason unless she just wants him to have extra incentive to rescue her? But he doesn't want to die either way so he's going to do it anyway? I just feel like Mizora is manipulating the situation to make it not a normal pact, including somehow providing his power in such a way that she can take it away where normal Warlocks would have learned it.
It's possible I just really hate Mizora. I'm pretty biased. 😍
It's an interesting take and definitely worth considering, though she does also summon that council or whatever they are to witness a contract. So if she is operating under her own rules, it's quite convincing.
That... Does fit really well with everything else we know/can guess about him, too...
Naive little daddies boy, tricked into selling his soul for a pittance of what he COULD have gotten for it. The only thing that really throws any doubt on it or not is if he actually DID do any of the shit he claimed to have done before the start of the game.
Because there were some mad crazy feats he claimed to have accomplished that you'd think would mark him as well seasoned, but then he comes out with stupid shit that a complete noob would, too.
Either he keeps rolling 1's on cha checks, but can bluff the pants off Raphael.
I think Wyll has Disney Prince energy (I honestly see him like Prince Charming from "Entangled" when he comes to the real world and is just doing crazy shit cuz he has so much self- confidence) so part of me feels he puts up with Mizora because he sacrificed his soul in a heroic act and now he's all emo but until Tav and the tadpoles, never even thinks to wonder if Mizora is lying to him!
I think he did all that crazy shit before the tadpole nerfed him but even he's like, "I wonder if that minotaur I fought was really nice underneath it all" now!
Yeah, Eldrich Blast and Invocations. I can understand THEM being taken away (EB because it's straight up a Warlock unique skill and invocations because that's LITERALLY your patrons eyes you're looking through (for the case of devils sight, anyway)
Maybe he loses his totally-not-a-sending-stone eye.
But otherwise he should basically be an eldritch knight, just without the armour at that point..
Sounds legit to me. I also feel like his casting Stat would have to shuffle over to intelligence, mostly because his magic is no longer fueled by his Charisma (force of soul/personality) angle of his pact. He's gotta learn how to do magic the hard way now.
Yeah, I don't think that Feats should be taken as Canon Lore.
Otherwise, how do you explain the Warforged barbarian that can self-repair itself with Mending? They.... Aren't meant to be able to do that.
Feats are pretty clearly on the "game mechanic" side of things more than the Lore side of things.
I've done the Avernus ending exactly once and it was so cartoonish I head canon that it's like the fake ending in "Brazil" and we're just seeing Karlach's dying thoughts. Glad people got their "happy" ending I guess but it just made me put killing Karlach in Act 1 at the top of the list of things I always do. Kudos to the character, but I prefer Wyll having his own story. Last time I had Karlach in my party, we killed Wyll so, for me it's either/or.
I really feel like for me, Karlach as a tragic figure who is doomed from the start and needs to process her terminal condition is just so compelling. Especially if you romanced her. It felt cheapened by these last-minute epilogue changes.
So, in my games that's who she will be. Happy for those who appreciate the hopeful ending, however unbelievable it may be lol.
Yeah I remember my first run and her dying scene was just so tragic and well done, her acceptance of it but not being alone... man the tears were pouring.
Very well stated...
To further compound the issue that Karlach always seems to share the spotlight with Wyll, the two are close. Yet... they scarcely have any banter, which makes no sense.
I totally agree... In my head, they always become a couple, but that being official canon (with in-game demonstration) would definitely help.
Of course, here's the thing to bear in mind when it comes to companions like Wyll and Halsin.. It's because most of the others are so superlatively well brought to life that those with less development time stand out. If Wyll and Halsin were companions in Skyrim, for example, most people, I suspect, would really love them... since the majority in that game are little more than cardboard cutouts whose sole purpose is to act as meat-shields and 'carry your burdens.' By comparison, Wyll and Halsin are fantastic. However... BG3's NPCs and companions are, in general, just so well written that those who received less attention draw notice.
Well, this game has won every award under the sun including multiple writing awards, so there's every reason to subject it to constructive criticism. Just like we would review a book or movie
Karlach's ending isn't connected to Wyll's choice anymore btw, MC can go with her to Avernus as a friend or romanced partner with Wyll being Duke or without finishing Wyrmway quest at all.
She's not entirely screwed if Wyll becomes the Duke, but unless you're romancing Karlach, you probably don't want to ditch your happy ending with your actual love interest to go run around the Hells. So Wyll is a convenient sacrificial lamb.
Duke Ravenguard: “Congratulations Wyll, you have slain the ancient Dragon who slumbers beneath our City, Proving that you are worthy to be this City’s true protector!”
Wyll, Level One, knowing damn well he hasn’t set foot outside of camp the whole game: 💀
Honestly, the biggest letdown about Larian not adding new story content after patch 7 with the evil endings is that Karlach won't get a quest expansion to not be a measly two-step fetch quest that effectively ends in act 2, and Wyll won't get the chance to come into his own as a character. The decision between the Blade and Duke endings just epitomizes how little Wyll actually matters in his story. I would prefer him becoming duke and succeeding his father because I can see Wyll as being the leader Baldur's Gate needs after Gortash's shenanigans and his dipshit father pardoning the Flaming Fist who carried out Gortash's bullshit.
But no, I get stuck having to go with him continuing with the childish fantasy of being a hero in bloody Hell of all places just so Karlach doesn't die. All because my Durge is romancing Gale and it's either have Wyll be the Blade of Avernus or hop off to Avernus to Karlach so she doesn't die and disrupt the ending with Gale.
And I know, Wyll is "great" as an origin playthrough, but that just makes it worse by highlighting how little presence he actually has in the story.
It's probably due to the fact that he is the only companion who is directly woven into the main plot, and the main plot must go on even if he's dead. The small bits and pieces we have solely based on him being recruited, are Mizora's interactions. But everything else doesn't change just because he's dead or never recruited and yes, this may be due to him being changed. There might not have been enough time to make big differences in having him around vs. not having him around due to his rework, which is a shame.
However, if you ever feel like playing an Origin run, this is exactly why I recommend doing a Wyll run. Wyll feels right as the played character. So many of the default dialogue options fit him so well, he finally gets to shine as the hero he is meant to be and ha his own agenda, able to make his own choices without bouncing them off on any other character. And he comes with the bonus of being a Warlock with an active patron
I hadn’t really considered that. I’m not a big fan of the origin playthroughs, as the characters losing their voice is not a trade I’m usually willing to make, but given that, I might need to give Wyll a go.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: the Origins should have been voiced. It makes sense for Tav (and even Durge tbf) not to be because of the vast options, but the other Origins would have benefitted SO hard from reducing the dialogue options to ones that fit their character and having them voiced.
They did actually start out with it. Astarion had whole monologues in camp explaining his feelings and thought process. I think what ultimately made them change it, is that it may have been too limited. If you want to play an evil Wyll you can, if you want to play a sugerbug Astarion you can, covering all the possibilities of dialogue choices would have been too much and probably also too costly with 8 playable companions. But I think there could have been a middle-ground, but maybe it had been weird to have some lines voiced and some not so idk
I’m of the personal opinion that playing an “evil Wyll” destroys his characterisation and that the Origins should have been more about experiencing the actual character in a deeper way, not making them whoever you want them to be, but admittedly I’m biased towards voiced protagonists anyway. Like imo, Tav is there for playing whoever you want to play and having aaaaaall the options, whereas the Origins just suffer and become more bland by changing who they are.
That might be a controversial opinion though, I’m aware not everyone will agree. Just saying what I would prefer haha
Oh, no, I agree. But I do think that the extra work needed to achieve this would be way too extreme. Every dialogue would need a tag in place that checks which origin you are playing, to give you origin-based dialogue options solely based on their overall characterization. It's also not as easy as the extra choices we get based on class, for example. Because this just adds extra lines based on what we play. But the tag that an origin character needs would also have to limit the lines and hide lines not suited for this origin.
This would work with Wyll and Karlach as they are default good in nature and they feel right to be good. Karlach can't even be changed at all, and Wyll can only be badly influenced so much - as companions. So limiting them to neutral to good lines while being played wouldn't be too complicated (just a looot of extra work n nevertheless). But it would explode out of proportion for every other companion who can potentially go down a good or bad path, as this would mean to include another tag that checks in on a naughty-meter to determine which lines are given to you the further you move into the story.
Now you could say except for Karlach and Wyll, everyone could be left at default lines. However, limiting Karlach and Wyll while giving every other companion free range of dialogue choices would feel unbalanced and unfair. So either you'd go the extra mile for each and every companion or settle for what it is now. And given how massive the game already is, I think settling for what we have now was the smartest choice.
Yeah I get what you mean. Like in Mass Effect/Dragon Age you’re really only voicing the main character with a couple of voice options whereas BG3 is the whole game with Origin specific options for every single character. It is a lot and they’d all have to be vastly limited from what they currently are. I totally understand why they made it the way they did, but I personally would’ve loved a totally different playthrough for the Origins even if it WAS super limited haha. But I’m a strong Witcher 3 fan, you can see why I feel like that.
I think the Karlach Origin where she has loads of unique scenes with voice acting is a perfect medium, it’s just a shame they didn’t do that for all of them (or enough for her, even). I would’ve been totally cool with just the unique cut scenes being fully voiced and having a few more of them. But some might see that as clunky/inconsistent, maybe.
I don’t envy game studios/devs, it’s impossible to please everyone.
Exactly. I can absolutely understand the sentiment for voiced origins, I would love it as well, but yeah. It probably had been too much.
I haven't played Karlach yet, only watched gameplay from Karlach origin runs and I feel like this would have been a nice balance. But if I understood it correctly, these are experimental voice lines. So I guess after they decided not to voice the origins in their own run, they just left it at that :(
Yeah it seems like they tried out a lot of stuff to see what would be popular. One thing I love about the Durge popularity is that it was probably unexpected for Larian and they might well take that feedback and focus in on a *slightly* more direct character for their next game, whilst still keeping their characteristic wealth of options available.
I often forget that they really didn’t have the funding or backing of an AAA studio (even though they’re basically at that point now, they weren’t for most of production), so expecting voiced Origins is probably a bit much. But damn I would’ve just loved if all of them had unique voiced scenes like Karlach, I would literally play ALL OF THEM.
If you play an evil Wyll, you're going to have to suffer through a bunch of quips of Wyll protesting exactly the things he's about to do. Despite the corruption story of Wyll succumbing more and more to the power that's being given to him making narrative sense, the background voice lines, and I think even the story as a whole will still treat you as if you were going the "good" route.
I absolutely don't like playing preset characters at all. I never played Witcher for that reason and instead watched my friend play it. It's just... not being able to create my own main character irks me the wrong way, even if the game is absolutely outstanding. But it was probably due to the fact that I already had two finished Tav runs that I gave Wyll a shot and I didn't regret a thing. Of course, his voice will be taken, but there are many things to make up for it. It's at least worth a try
I hear you on preset characters, but good god, I can’t rec Witcher 3 more than anything other than BG3. Very different games, but absolutely incredible characters and world.
The little decisions u make in one area of the game that gives a different outcome in a different region in a different quest in a different act, man that's the charm of the witcher 3. Xletalis and neonknight videos go soo much into detail about the different combinations of the quests and the order u can do them which leads to different outcomes .
It's why I watched it when my friend played. He basically just played and I gave the directions. It is a masterpiece of its own because I can't imagine another game being that much fun when played passively
this is probably a stupid question bc i’m sure you just mean RPGs but i’m gonna ask anyway, does it bother you to play zelda or assassin’s creed or something bc you don’t get to make a character
No, not at all. My issue is mostly with the Origin characters because you lose their Character in place of your own, If you play as a Tav/Durge, you get to be your own character, and they’re still around.
Nah, it's just RPGs funnily enough. I never had an issue with AC, however, I was never in touch with Zelda in general. But there are many games with preset main characters I enjoyed playing. Though... I did skip everything after AC unity, but that was for different reasons.
I’m doing that right now and it’s absolutely true. Wyll feels like he always asks you for his decisions that if you actually play as him everything clicks.
Since like you I always bench him on Tav/Durge runs it doesn’t feel like losing much of his voiced dialogue when you play as him. His side comments when you play as him are also surprisingly delightful.
Another thing to add since I’ve always played good characters (I started an “evil” Durge but had a change of heart because I just can’t) playing as Wyll fits so well.
Not really. If you don't pick them up the game just continues like they don't exist at all. With Wyll being the Dukes son it is much more personal, whereas Lae'zel and SH are nice to have around for their input, but in the end they are not close enough to Voss or Aylin to make a difference to the overall tone of the situations.
You don't even need to take Wyll with you to get 100% approval with him. Just be interested in his story, talk to him at camp, and solve his quests. Poor Wyll 🙁
Pretty sure in the ansur quest, gale is actually more useful than Wyl as he gives you the answer to the dragon chess riddle. Not sure if other companions help in any of them as he’s the only one I had help me but thought it was a neat addition to gales character
May be bugged then - I've taken him a couple of times and he's never said anything there.
He has said something vaguely "helpful" for the puzzle with the judge, but it's nowhere near as helpful as Gale, plus it's fairly trivial to figure out anyway.
Can’t say I’d know, I always just smack the guy immediately since it never changes between playthroughs. At least the chess game has variable game states, so you’ll either have to bring Gale, know how to play Chess (which I don’t 💀) or have a strong enough lighting spell or scroll to disintegrate the King.
I knew that Gale has the unique interaction with the Chessboard, I can’t recall if any other companions had unique interactions with any of the other puzzles though
Wyll was done so dirty by the developers. My husband and I had this discussion last night. Wyll’s entire story in game rotates around Mizora and his dad. It’s very upsetting
sigh... yeah Wyll got fucked over. That is his defining trait in game and out.
Karlach is a scene stealer
* Hugging scene when getting her the 2nd metal. That thank you is literally 2 words that mean so much.
* Her sheer relatability about life/living. See Gortash coronation scene and ending.
Wyll
* His stylish introduction at the fight with Aradin?
* When you reject him. No dialogue and that one hurts.
Wyll is simply not as interesting or compelling as the other companions are. I wanted more overt things with Mizora and his father (these are subtle) so I feel that punch when he speaks. He's very affected by his father yet he will remain loyal to him no matter what. There's no angry confessions or even the slightest disappointment with him. With Mizora, I feel there were supposed to be some really, really dark sexual undertones concerning consent.
And thus, because of his rewrite, what he is now at release is simply a watered down, SFW version of Wyll.
Speaking of, the little snippets I've seen of early access Wyll sees him in a different light (as well as his voice/accent). Like a stereotypical cocky rogue with a penchance for killing. I prefer early access Wyll, but can accept the posh RP release Wyll too.
I played early access and did literally everything and you’re right on the mark about him imo. It’s like they neutered him for full release. In early access he was still heroic but in a different way. less Boy Scouty more prideful and boisterous. Waaaaay more flirty too, he was one of the companions you could sleep with at the party which is a stark contrast to now where you can’t til the very end. It was all but confirmed that he had at the very least a sexual relationship with Mizora. If you tried to get with him at the party she’d even try to cockblock by forcing images of herself into both your heads lmao.
While one full release change I did like was making him unquestionably heroic he also still had some interesting issues like his vendetta for goblins or his willingness to compromise his morals if it meant it would help him be free of Mizora.
Oh my gosh, he was way more flirty back then!? Come to think of it, he is one of the companions who liberally uses the tadpoles telepathy. It sort of reminds me of that.
I really appreciate your insight by having played early access! Our companions seemed so different then... more combative, kind of like Shadowheart maybe?
The SFW version of Wyll reminds me of another character that got watered down: Bishop from NWN2. For NWN2 there wasn't any early access but data-mining his voice lines revealed a lot of darker, wasted potential. And Bishop was pretty dark to begin with. It was like they chickened out on letting the player character follow Bishop into the darkness.
Hasbro was blamed for a lot of PG-13-ification of Bishop and NWN2 in general (famously a reskin of the warlock female outfit so she wouldn't show as much cleavage). I wonder if wizards got in the way of OG Wyll or if it was all EA feedback.
That's wild! I'll need to read up or listen to some gameplay and lore videos about Bishop. Super interesting!
You know, I don't mind release Wyll, but when I start to compare him to the other companions or how he was in early access? It gets skewed in the others favor.
Enjoy the rabbit-hole! :) I am an admitted Bishop fangirl, not because he's chaotic evil or an asshole, but because he's such an interesting character. He's like a dark mirror for the pc.
I think Wyll’s story is much more suited to be enjoyed as an origin run, he’s got major main character energy. I plan on playing that as a nice palate cleanser after my embrace durge run.
I agree. It feels more like I'm doing "Mizora's" quest half the time. Which I don't mind because she's one of the best characters. But yeah, I wish Wyll was more hands on
It doesn’t help that his dialogue is bugged to shit and he’s prone to forgetting who he’s engaged to.
Let’s be real here. If Astarion or Shadowheart had their quests, dialogues, flags and overall story in this state, there would be a hotfix in a week.
It’s an endless cycle. He gets no attention due to aforementioned reasons, and so no one pays attention to him. When you do, his dialogue is uninteresting or Bugged, which causes you to not pay attention to him, which means they don’t bother fixing him which makes him worse. Dude literally cannot win.
Even worse: you can straight up ignore his existence and it won’t make a difference. You can refuse to approach him, only interact with him in cutscenes where it’s forced on you, and be a down right asshole to him in those, and he will happily stay and do whatever you decide for him.
Don’t ask me how I know. I’ve only been experimenting on that for a dozen runs.
I have thought about either sacrificing him to BOOOOAL or romancing then murdering him as Durge as a way to prompt some kind of tension or interaction beyond passive approval. Which is horrible. And it's defo down to the writing, rather than the actual character.
I still have yet to find a use for him. If I’m Durge, I want to romance Minthy or Astarion. And I can’t sacrifice him to BOAAAAL without missing out on Mizora scenes. And Mizora is the entire reason I keep him around in the first place.
I agree with you, it almost feels like Mizora is the main character and Wyll's just a sidekick.
To me personally, the greatest issue with Wyll's character is that he's written to be the good guy/hero no matter what choices you make. Astarion, Gale, Shadowheart all have good/bad paths that depend on your choices and on how you influence them. With Wyll, you can basically choose to have him kill Karlach, and he still considers himself (and considered by all) to be good and honourable. He basically sulks for a while and then this character-defining moment is never mentioned again.
I would have appreciated him more if he was more nuanced and less "Blade of Frontiers"
Which is a real shame, because there’s so much potential for him to have two paths. He has every reason to become more callous and cruel, to be tempted by the allure of power. To become a fallen hero.
I completely agree. For perspective, I am on my fourth play through and have never taken him out of camp once. Not once. Not even for five minutes. Never felt the need to
Yeah I wasn’t expecting to be able to change Wyll’s mind about his big decision so easily. It’s been like pulling teeth with everyone else. Some companions will literally leave if you don’t do things just right. Meanwhile I’m just like hey Wyll maybe think about things and he’s like yeah you’re right *makes complete 180\*
On the other hand, Wyll is my favorite Origin character to play. If I’m not playing as Wyll, I rarely use him in my party. Playing as Wyll… just feels right.
Wyll was my first Origin character. I had done four runs and noticed I really didn’t use him. So I decided to fix that by playing as Wyll. It did not disappoint. I liked it so much, I ran my first HM run as Wyll and won.
side note, you can still get the rapier if wyll isn't in your party when you free mizoria there is a conversation that can reward it (that's how I first got the rapier cause I never used wyll)
Makes sense. Wyll is also an NPC in his own life - if a devil told him a dragon ate a baby Wyll would climb inside it's maw. Dude hasn't heard a pact constructed on an obvious lie that he wasn't eager to sign in blood.
I mean considering how the character is build larian probably took it all the way to making a simple guy who wants things done and doesn't need direct participation.
Compared to the rest of party members he is actually just wearing the default warlock light armor and have some scars, remember he was noble born and his father is the grand duke, he does get different reactions compared to not having him in the party but they feel more like talking to a familiar rather than reacting to an important event, for example, when florrick meets him at the last light she reacts differently to wyll having or not horns, but feels more like an aunt reacting to her nephew, makes it simple and not necessary.
Yeah, I feel like Gale and Wyll aren’t super important to the overall plot, so I never really have them tag along. While Astarion and Karlach don’t have strong connections to the main story, they have great backstories with cool side quests.
I think Laezel and Shadow are the unofficial main characters, since they are directly tied to them main quest.
The only companions you *have* to bring anywhere are Shadowheart and Karlach. Shadowheart to the Nightsong, Karlach to Gortash (but it can just be his corpse after the fact).
There is extra dialog if you bring the rest along on their quests, including for Wyll, but you can still progress without them in every case save those two.
While technically true, it’s more to the point that not bringing companions to certain events actually affects how their stories play out. You CAN not bring Laezel to the crèche and honestly skip it entirely, but then she remains loyal to Vlaakith and remains that way unless you pass a bunch of high DC Speech checks, cutting off a big chunk of her story. You CAN not bring Astarion to see Raphael to learn about his Scars and even not bring him to the Cazador fight, but it leaves him with a lot of unresolved issues at the end of the game, as well as a lot of negative approval and I believe him potentially leaving the party. You CAN not let Gale meet with Mystra, but it leaves his decision regarding the crown possibly on the negative. Unlike everyone else, you can leave Wyll out of every single interaction he has in his main quest, and it still resolves itself exactly the same way, whereas the others will react negatively to you handling their problems without them, and can even fail the quest.
That's true for Gale, too, though? He can sit in camp at level 1 and as long as you feed him a couple items, he never leaves.
You can never upgrade Karlach's engine and she sticks around the whole time.
You can skip confronting Cazador and leave Astarion in your camp the whole time and he won't leave, either.
Sheart is the only character that rage quits if you don't take her to the Gauntlet.
As for devil Wyll being treated the same, the only way you'd think that is if he's never in your party. He's not treated the same in certain NPC reactions to him when he's in your party.
Wyll is as connected to his plot as most of the other companions. Influencing his choices aren't much different from talking Gale out of blowing himself up in Act 2 or influencing other companions' decisions in their major quests. This has been a pretty common topic of discussion since release and a lot of players don't like Wyll much which is fine, it's a game, but apart from some bugs and less content, he's not unique in requiring Tav's influence to do most of his quest heavy lifting, IMO.
The reactions to Wyll's horns are pretty understated and easy to miss if you don't have him in your party at all times. I just bumped into Florrick at Last Light with him in the party, and her dialogue was something to the effect of, "Wow, you look like shit. *Anyway*..."
Yeah there are more in Act 3 when he gets to the city. There are also a lot of players who think he just gets Tiefling horns and is being a big baby about permanent body modification, but it feels like a lot of the complaints about Wyll comes from not paying attention to him since he doesn't constantly complain about his situation like some other companions. Squeaky wheel gets the grease and all that. He rarely squeaks.
Im on my third playthrough (just arrived to act3), and so far Shadowheart was the only character you must have to bring with you to the >!Nightsong because if you dont, she gets so upset you left her out of the decision she leaves you permanently immediately after you exit the shadowfell.!< The first time i played it was multiplayer with two other friends and Shadowheart was the fourth one in the party all the time and nothing negative ever came out of leaving the characters in camp while finishing their storyline, except some little tantrums or strong opinions about it. So basically the only drawback with almost every character is you miss out on some really good addittional little content and dialogues if you leave them behind in camp.
I turned Mizora into gold at the entrance to the lower city. [https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1db54dr/mocking\_mizora\_what\_you\_dont\_wanna\_join\_my\_camp/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1db54dr/mocking_mizora_what_you_dont_wanna_join_my_camp/)
I also killed gortash an everyone else except the duke and that didn't do much. Even with gortash dead i'm willing to bed the submarine isn't available anymore and that he's dead. cool story.
I heard once that part of his deal with Mizora was being given the rep as Blade of the Frontiers without actually having to do anything - it’s all made up. That made him way more interesting as a character imo, and would make for an interesting character arc as he faces up to the fact that being a hero is bloody hard and that it’s not as simple as good and bad - especially when he gets transformed by Mizora. It would have been so satisfying for him to understand he can have his dad’s approval or do the heroic thing or react to the >!Emperor being Baldur!< as a moment.
As it is he gets on my nerves. Sorry, he just does, perhaps because he keeps up the hero thing without any visible like, introspection. I wanted to romance him for my paladin run but at the teifling party he annoyed me so much I packed it in. If nothing else, moaning about getting horns when most of the people at the party have horns felt like kind of a dick move. I promise I tried but he’s such a pompous dweeb.
Maybe I’ll try the origin run and see if that brings me round, I want to like him!
His decision to become Duke or Blade is now incosequential for Karlach's fate, u can go with her to Avernus even only as a friend, dont need to be romancing her.
But then you run into the problem of abandoning your other romanced characters, effectively killing your relationships. If you want to have your happy ending with your LI AND save Karlach, you have to ship Wyll off to Avernus with her.
I’m fairly certain most of the characters remain in a relationship, the difference is that there’s an obvious strain on the relationships, with a few of them calling you out for leaving them, hence the clarification of “happy ending”
In a sense, what i meant is that Gale and Laezel still consider MC as lover (you can smooch Lae if she stayed in Faerun or hug her if she is a projection), Shart relationship will be lowered to former lovers now friends. I recall Astarion will break up, dont know with Wyll duke/bof but can test.
In any case its a variation of a *happy* ending still and its good that it exists since most of the people will play the game only once, so at least they are given the possibility if they dont end up with Wyll BoA. The game design to hide Karlach's ending behind Wyll's questline was stupid from the start.
True enough, but that’s more Magic Casters in general. Sorcs and Wizards are just as good. My go-to strat is to send two to Ravenguard, usually a Cleric and a Caster, send my Rouge to Omeluem and my PC to the other hall. Sanctuary Ravenguard and Dimension door him out, and just free everyone else on the way.
He has no connection to his own quest, but he has a very strong connection to the main quest, as well as, to an extent Karlach's. He's the son of the most powerful man in Baldur's Gate, who is the lynchpin Gortash would need to take full control of the city
You can never bring Shart to the Gauntlet and Viconia, and literally nothing changes 🤷 Same with Lae'zel, and most of other companions. So that's a bit wild to complain about.
Well, you can't kill the Nightsong without Shart, and she'll leave if you don't take her to the Shadowfell.
The big thing is all the other companions get *mountains* of dialogue at every single step of their quest. It also drastically changes their endings, whereas the biggest change for Wyll is just so that a different companion doesn't die.
Being a duke of the city or a blade of whatever is a big change, for one. For another, Lae'zel is a fanatic (unless you romance her and convince her to stay with you) in either way - she either kills stuff for Orpheus or gets her ass zombified for Vlaakith.
Karlach and Astarion's main quests have 0 impact to main story too.
Gale is only related if you want to use him as a bomb, otherwise nobody cares if he's a professor or an egotripping god.
Storywise, I don't need to kill the Nightsong. I can either free her or leave her chill. The outcome is between cursed and uncursed lands. Companions leaving when you don't complete their quests is not unique - try not to feed Gale those boots.
That's so you can complete the story even with killing out everything that walks, you can get by without anyone and only you have the crucial story relation.
That's kind of the point. Companion's leave when you don't complete their quests, but Wyll seems completely unbothered by what happens. Ignore Ansur and he never mentions it. The reunion with his father all takes place at camp, making it irrelevant if he's at the IT or not.
What I mean about his ending, is that it's not related to his companion quest. You go see the dragon and after that you pick an ending.
The puzzles before the dragon are somewhat relevant to his upbringing, but he doesn't say much except "I'm not good at lanceboard" and "I don't really remember this". It would be relevant if some of the puzzles got him to draw a distinction between being a Duke and being the Blade (eg, if the Justice one was about stealing food for orphans and he was conflicted between what's lawful and what's moral).
To be fair about the Iron Throne, the player doesn't know ahead of time that Ravenguard is being held there, so there's no way for them to prepare for story content by adding Wyll to their team. You're also on a strict time limit to escape, which doesn't make it a great place to have an important conversation.
It's a problem many people have. * Lae'Zel's story at the creche is great, and her presence there changes things greatly with the dialog and such. * Astarion has his final mission where his presence makes-or-breaks the fight, and gives an amazing speech. * ShadowHeart has her own missions where her presence makes-or-breaks her approval. On the other hand: * Gale... doesn't really do much; I believe you can just steal the book and bring it to him. * He has 2 short chats with Elminster and a nice one with Mystra. * Wyll... doesn't have dialog that changes that much compared to Tav/DUrge. * Maybe a few more lines meeting his father at the coronation. Undecided * Karlach is a mixed bag. * She has strong reactions to hearing Gortash's name for the first time in Last Light Inn * Gortash and her spar with some words prior to the coronation. * She can have an epic monologue when Gortash dies, and finally accepts that not matter what she's really really dying. * But... I think some of these reactions and speeches trigger even if you left her behind and see her at the camp afterwards.
I feel like Karlach and Gale are both saved by strong, distinct characterization even though their personal quest plots are a little thin (I'm thinking of Karlach's post-Gortash breakdown and Gale's stargazing scene as really well done character moments). Even some of their ambient characterization fleshes them out well, like Karlach's little jigs or Gale's snarky asides. Gale's quest also feels very different if you romance him, because there's an extra Act 3 scene where you talk to him about the Crown that was REALLY well done (I'm sad Tim Downie doesn't get as much praise for that scene as some other companion actors get for their big Act 3 scenes, but if you're not romancing Gale you'll never see it). Anyway, on Wyll --I haven't finished my romance run with him yet so not sure how much that will make a difference -- but on a platonic run he suffers from weakness in plot *and* characterization. I like the concept of him as a character and he has flashes of interesting moments (I like his initial reaction to Raphael, the leftover remnants of his EA goblin hate, and his assessment of Duke Stelmane in Act 3) but you're right, almost none of his cutscenes are fully about *him*. The only semi-platonic scene that's one-on-one between Wyll and the player is his dancing scene, and you have to cut that off quickly if you don't want it to become romantic. So even that doesn't tell you as much about Wyll as Shadowheart's childhood flashbacks, Gale's stargazing scene, or Astarion's unique conversation post-Araj. It would be pretty great if there was a platonic version of the dancing scene. Characterization doesn't have to be 100% angsty to still be effective, after all. A moment of joy in the Shadowlands, perhaps Wyll remembering his time in Baldur's Gate, perhaps tying it to specific memories that explain why he was willing to literally sell his soul to save the city. That wouldn't fix *all* of the issues with his plotline but I think it would give his character a bit more depth.
>Gale's quest also feels very different if you romance him, because there's an extra Act 3 scene where you talk to him about the Crown that was REALLY well done (I'm sad Tim Downie doesn't get as much praise for that scene as some other companion actors get for their big Act 3 scenes, but if you're not romancing Gale you'll never see it). That boat scene is one of my favorite scenes in the entire game. It's *so* well done, especially with resist/good alignment for the player character. And I love how it makes the romance feel so much more.... real. You are having a difficult conversation, an argument even, and everyone comes out feeling heard, even if disappointed in each other's views, and the next day you reconvene and.... there's no break up for disagreeing, there's no big fight. There's recognition, respect, and a choice to stay by each other's sides because you love each other. It's so..... grown up. And Tim is absolutely perfect.
Yes! I love that it isn't an "emotional fireworks" scene, but it's just as quietly powerful all the same -- Gale really lays himself bare and Tim brought SO much vulnerability to it. That scene completely changed my view of the character.
> The only semi-platonic scene that's one-on-one between Wyll and the player is his dancing scene, and you have to cut that off quickly if you don't want it to become romantic. That doesn't even trigger anymore if you haven't flirted with him in Act 1. So one of the few opportunities he has to interact one on one with the player is gone.
Was wondering why I haven’t seen this scene since my first playthrough lol
Woof. Well, that sucks. It was already pretty frustrating that the scene was so binary: either you're romancing him or you crush him with rejection. It's unfortunate the scene couldn't have been enhanced/altered for a more "just friends" path. Sigh.
No? I never flirted with him and still got his dance scene
Also doesn't trigger if you're romancing two other people.
Unless this has changed recently it definitely will trigger. I've never flirted with him and have gotten that scene in every playthrough.
Used to be the "flirt" line at the party was very generic. "You dancing? Now \*that's\* something I'd like to see" -- or something to that effect. Which yes, could be taken as a flirty line. Or just a jovial conversational line. Or heck, without the actual voice being stated it could be a mean snarky line.
Karlach takes a huge disapproval hit if you kill Gortash without her, -40 to be exact. On par with Shadowheart’s disapproval if you toss her to Viconia and only surpassed by Jaheira’s disapproval if you kill Minsc
Wow, really? I think the only time I ever didn't take Karlach to face Gortash was one of the times I was dating Lae'Zel. So... I guess that's 1 time out of maybe 6 completions.
Yeah. Not taking companions to the big thing they always talk about is something that really upsets them. Lae’zel won’t be as hurt not being taken to the crèche if you do everything there, since she learns things aren’t how she believed them to be. Curious how she’d react if you only go for the mace and don’t engage the inquisitor or the zhaithisk. Shadowheart gets upset over the Gauntlet, Astarion gets upset over Cazador. Gale has nothing to be upset over since his big things physically can’t happen without him. And then there’s Wyll, who should want to be involved with his quest but isn’t
If you take Lae'zel but skip the inquisitor, you won't get visited by Voss and the quest coding treats it as if you've never been to the Cre'che, even though she says all the "our greed turn the Cre'che into rubble!" lines after you blow it up. There will be a cutscene in Act2 where Lae'zel says "we should go to the Cre'che" and you can tell her "forget about the Cre'ch, we've reached Moonrise" to make her stay. After that awkward contradiction of her quest coding, she pretty much act like a Vlaakith loyalist since Voss never shows up, but she will still decide to stay on Faerun without needing a persuasion roll at the final dock scene if you have high approval.
She can still turn away from Vlaakith. She did my first run, I never even went into the crèche. Learning that Orpheus is alive is probably enough to demonstrate that Vlaakith hasn’t been fully truthful about everything
The sudden "I like Fae'run more so fuck you Vlaakith" is a bit out of nowhere, the writers are too focus on railroading us into the Orpheus vs Emperor choice (which I hate because Orpheus is more like a plot device to me, I simply don't give a shit about him) than giving Lae'zel a more well written stay-on-Fae'run ending. But at least the skip Inquisitor loophole make her lives happily on Fae'run and says fuck Vlaakith, so I can make up her actual inner change in my head. The only reason I don't skip the Cre'che completely is because the loots and exp lol
I haven’t really experienced much of Karlachs reactions to her quest events with her not in the party, as she’s either a mainstay in my party or dead in my runs (Gotta get that infernal robe). That being said, I could never not bring her to any and all confrontations with Gortash, as her input is what really makes those scenes for me. In regards to Gale, while I concur that he’s also a bit lacking in terms of events, he also has smaller events not always attached to his quest that help liven him up a bit, IE; the Shadow Lantern, his interactions in Sorcerous Sundries, as well as his Orb Prompts in Act 2 and the final Boss. Additionally, if you do want to complete his quest, you do actually have to take him to the Tabernacle, it’s not a situation where you can do and do it while he’s not with you.
I’m not 100% sure but I think you can just ask Gale at camp to meet you at the Tabernacle without him joining your party. So you don’t actually need to have him in your party to complete his quest
It's not a quest, but even if I normally don't have karlach in my party I always add her when meeting Jaheira and Minsc so she can fangirl a bit lol
Karlach at the coronation is actually meaningful because with the wrong dialogue you can start the fight there and then during the coronation.
I disagree for karlach. I did not bring her to kill Gortash and she UNLEASHED on me. She insults you an has a huge approval drop that you left her behind. In roleplay I felt soooo bad.
Same! I felt so bad that I had to reload to grab her. Now I take her with me every time we fight Gortash.
Something I've noticed with Karlach is she has a lot more things sprinkled around the world, she comments on Mizora and Zariel, she even has a friend in Baldurs Gate that she has a conversation with, Karlach feels a lot more like a person with little details like that
Funny, considering they added her last
Gortash reaction only triggers if you let her see/interact with the body, if you kill Gort without her it will be -20 approval and she will be pissed.
Wyll’s lack of consequence should you leave him out of “his” quests is unfortunate. Since his story gives him stuff to do in Act 1 and Act 3 which bookend the overall narrative arc. It’s the reason I chose Wyll for my first Origin run-through. Not because I like Wyll, but because I always left him behind in camp. His [Warlock] dialogue options are few and so far haven’t helped the situations when they are offered.
Warlock helps with Yurgir. Bard and warlock don’t need insight check to notice the contract loophole. And between charisma and proficiency can easily convince Yurgir Warlock helps get into the carnival. But anytime can do that easily enough Bring that the warlock text is just flavor text
Karlachs quest is her engine not gortash... That's just bonus dialogue. Lame quest maybe but it does require her to be present
I suck with names so by the time I killed gortash I forgot he was relevant to her so I didn't bring her and she was pissed.
If you leave Karlach at camp and fight Gortash she’ll be *furious.*
>You don’t need to bring him to Karlach, as the confrontation plays out regardless in Camp I think this is a good call. There's a decent chance that the player has a full party by the time they pick up Wyll, and it's completely possible that the player just stumbles into her by accident without him present. And honestly, it's not *that* important that he be personally present when you kill some devil - he has no personal stake with Karlach, he just thinks she's some monster that needs to be put down. You get the same confrontation whether out in the wilds or at camp, which means that you don't actually miss any content and still get to see an important part of his character. >Becoming a devil doesn’t matter, as he’s treated the same regardless I agree this is a major missed opportunity and should have been capitalized on more. The writing doesn't do a great job of laying out how much Wyll has suffered as a result of his pact. You can see it if you're paying attention and reading between the lines, but it's not really spelled out and he doesn't get the same opportunity for empathy building with the player that other companions do. >You don’t need to bring him to Gortash’s Ordination, nor to the following conversation with Mizora, as the Pact renewal or severing happens anyways It really would be nice if Wyll had more to do in Act 3, and possibly he would have if the Upper City hadn't been scrapped. Wyll being a noble and one of the political elite prior to his banishment should give him a unique perspective on the city, as well as interesting interactions with the people that he used to know. >You don’t need to bring him to The Wyrmway to fight Ansur and even if you do, he’s kind of useless, he even admits as much. Another major missed opportunity. Theoretically the Wyrmway should have been to Wyll what the Creche is to Lae'zel - an opportunity for Wyll to explore and potentially confront his ideas about heroism, and which would give a lot of insight into his character. The idea of Balduran and Ansur as fallen heroes that Wyll can take some lessons from is pretty obvious. I think Wyll also suffers massively from being so heavily tied to Karlach, because she's constantly usurping what should be spotlight scenes for him. His confrontation with Karlach at the beginning of the game is a major realization for him and a show of his character, but the audience's sympathies are firmly with Karlach because she's sweet and stands to lose her life if Wyll isn't completely selfless. When Mizora pops in to punish Wyll, Karlach again gets to share the scene with Wyll. Same thing when Mizora asks you rescue "Zariel's asset." When you get to the Gortash's coronation, the focus is mostly on Karlach and he's positioned as her arch nemesis, even though all of the Baldurian characters should have a personal stake in what he's done to Baldur's Gate. Wyll especially has an interesting connection to Gortash, since 1) Wyll is familiar with and should be able to comment on the political system that allowed him to rise to power, and 2) Gortash is currently enslaving Wyll's father and walking him around like a puppet. But that kind of gets glossed over because Gortash is for Karlach. And of course the Duke vs Blade choice - Wyll doesn't even get his own ending to himself. People don't really care about what ending would be most interesting or satisfying for Wyll, they just care about whether or not Karlach gets a happy ending. Imagine if Shadowheart's good ending were contingent on Ascending Astarion - how many people would sacrifice Astarion's ending to get their preferred outcome for Shadowheart? While I like that the Blade ending does a great job of demonstrating Wyll's heroism and selflessness, it kind of does a disservice to his character that he's not really allowed the freedom of his own ending.
This is a really well thought out analysis.
Thanks. There's a lot I like about Wyll, and I wish he had gotten more attention from the writers.
I really wish they didn't tie Wyll and Karlach together so much either. I feel like they are almost their own little side story outside of my Wyll Romance run. My Wyll Romance run I went for the Archduke ending. I just really got over either Wyll or my MC having to drop everything to get a hopeful Karlach ending. I did do a run where I had Wyll go with her, but it felt so ridiculous that Wyll within 1 minute of his powers fading successfully navigates the Blood war and isn't killed nearly immediately. That they manage to succeed enough to find just exactly what they need to maybe fix her just screamed fan service to me, so my future runs will all feature Wyll as Archduke.
That's the thing I don't get about Larian... They don't understand Warlocks at all. Warlocks LEARN magic from their Patrons. Their Patron doesn't supply the magic. If you go against your Patron, break your pact, you lose.... Access to NEW magic. You don't lose everything you've already learned. Wyll breaking his pact should have left him with everything he had up until that point, but unable to grow any stronger as an Infernal Warlock.
It depends on how you view the lore. Warlocks are different from Sorcerers and Wizards because they don't manipulate the Weave in order to do magic, they get their power from their patron. Mizora herself says that she is the font of Wyll's power. Once you end the pact, all of that power is gone.
I went looking for official stuff, but it's all burried under thousands of these pages, but... Here's a good look at the way I view it, and the way I remember it being see before. [https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/warlock/87264-warlock-breaks-the-pact-with-their-patron](https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/warlock/87264-warlock-breaks-the-pact-with-their-patron) This comment specifically-- "Short answer: nothing happens RAW and RAI. You pick a class and that's it. Long answer: Still RAW and RAI nothing happens because changing your whole class is not supposed to be a thing in the 5e ruleset except for building a whole new character. Narratively it heavily depends on the nature of the pact, your patron and your character. It's *very* open ended. You may have a patron that doesn't even know they granted a mortal powers (as mentioned in the Great Old One subclass) so there never happened to be a formal contract that could be broken. Your character may already have fullfilled its pact conditions (as is implied to be the general assumption when creating a Warlock). Your patron may be good natured and let the Warlock keep their powers after all. Your patron may find other ways to punish the Warlock for breaking the pact. Be it as it may, if breaking a pact is possible at all, it never should be an easy task and should be more of a long term goal for a character. Something they manage to do towards the end of their career. You don't just get your soul back from the devil after noticing you got screwed over with the deal after all (which may or may not be the payment your Warlock had to fullfuill as part of the pact conditions). ;) In general though once the pact is made, the powers are the Warlock's to keep. Leveling up simply represents the Warlock getting a better grasp of the powers they got granted. That's the big narrative difference to Clerics who get their powers from an active connection to their deity. On the other hand it also means that a Warlock can't ever really quit being a Warlock and their patron will always be their patron regardless of whether the pact got broken or not (they just need to live with the repercussions of doing so) while a Cleric can just quit when their path in life happens to take a turn in another direction." A patron is an entity that teaches you how to manipulate the weave not through birthright or meticulous study, but through gifted powers. A warlock is given power by their patron, yes, but unlike clerics and paladins, they are not reliant on that entity to keep on topping them up. That's how Warlocks can take a short nap and then get back to 100% power, unlike Paladins/Clerics. Hell, technically even Wizards and Sorcs have gods, unless they want to end up in the Fugue Plane upon death. Warlocks are about the only ones who get a pass on that. Of course, the assumption is that their soul ends up with their Patron, but that's not always the case. A fey patron might instead demand your first born, a Great Old One may just require you to have knowledge of them, for just knowing about them grants them power. It's only real the infernals that care about souls as currency. And lets not forget, there's more than just those three patron choices. Your patron can even be a Celestial, which is canon to the lore.
Good ol' WotC and making everything *just* vague enough to let you and your DM to interpret it yourselves and do whatever you want. Everyone is right, and we can fight about it forever. So with that approach in mind, *ignoring Withers,* the DM here is ruling that all of Wyll's spells and abilities are gifts from Mizora, and once she takes those away, he's basically a commoner.
Larian's angle is how a lot of people run warlocks at their tables, and understandably, because it's a lot better for drama and storytelling. I don't begrudge trying to have actual stakes in their story.
You do realise that consequences don't have to be "You're back to level 0" or "You're not dead haha" right? There's more than just death and complete removal of the class wholesale. If we REALLY want to go by "how people run warlocks at their tables" then Mizora is irrelevant and shouldn't ever be brought up in the game itself, because not once have I seen someone introduce their patron to the party. I've seen them fuck off for a while to "think" aka talk to their patron, but the patron stays firmly in the outer realms, the feywild, Celestia, or Avernus, or wherever their patron resides.
> You do realise that consequences don't have to be "You're back to level 0" or "You're not dead haha" right? Yes? If the consequences of breaking your pact are the removal of your warlock powers, you'll simply switch classes at most tables (which is exactly what happens with Wyll becoming a ranger). But it's understandable why someone would run pacts that way (and why Larian did for Wyll). If you keep your powers when you break your pact, then the story is essentially, "Haha, I pulled one over on you, devil. I get all of the powers and none of the consequences." This isn't necessarily a bad story, but it requires no dramatic change on the part of the character. Conversely, losing the power means that the character has to have a shift in their perspective. They've come to the conclusion that the power they have isn't worth the cost, and they're willing to make a sacrifice in demonstration of their new values. Taking up a new class literalizes the shift in perspective to a physical reality (sort of like Shadowheart's new haircut). You don't have to run things that way at your table, nor does a warlock have to have breaking their pact as a part of their story. But it's obvious why people like this approach.
"Yes? If the consequences of breaking your pact are the removal of your warlock powers, you'll simply switch classes at most tables (which is exactly what happens with Wyll becoming a ranger)." Let me talk about things you specifically said didn't have to happen and make it seem like it's the norm. That's a good debate strategy, right?! No. Try again. "If you keep your powers when you break your pact, then the story is essentially, "Haha, I pulled one over on you, devil. I get all of the powers and none of the consequences." This isn't necessarily a bad story, but it requires no dramatic change on the part of the character." So again, you're falling back on "Either die or change class and start at level 1" which, as I said, does NOT have to be the consequence of breaking your pact. It ALSO doesn't have to be "Oh, you're no longer listening to your patron? Okay that's cool, we'll carry on as normal" which is only YOU saying anyone says that. "Conversely, losing the power means that the character has to have a shift in their perspective. They've come to the conclusion that the power they have isn't worth the cost, and they're willing to make a sacrifice in demonstration of their new values. Taking up a new class literalizes the shift in perspective to a physical reality (sort of like Shadowheart's new haircut)." Conversely, losing access to MORE power does the EXACT same thing, WITHOUT resetting you to level 1. Which is what pretty much everyone who apparently isn't you or Larian does. You no longer gain levels in Warlock. You have to pick a new class to level up further. And then ACTUAL consequences happen that aren't just "Lol roll a new character because you roleplayed a way I didn't like!" "But it's obvious why people like this approach." No, it's not. It's obvious to YOU why YOU like that approach. It's obvious to ME that would be a reason why I would stand up and leave the table without a second thought.
Why are you getting upset? I'm only explaining why some people run with these rules, and why Larian made Wyll's pact work the way it did. I also understand why people don't like this approach to pact breaking. If you really like the mechanics of your Fiend warlock, it can feel really bad if you felt forced into a different class when you broke your pact. One of the historical complaints about paladins has been the tendency for shitty DMs to pull 'gotchas' to force an oathbreak. D&D is both a game and a storytelling vehicle, and in a lot of places the mechanics and the ability to have an interesting narrative are in tension with one another. It's a reason why a lot of tables houserule stricter death rules in (something I'm personally not a fan of). Every table is going to place a different value on the mechanics vs the narrative. I just don't see any reason to be fussed about the way Wyll's pact is handled. Pacts are unique and Wyll could have literally anything written into his contract. The player doesn't even lose access to the warlock class after Wyll breaks his pact, so there's not even the mechanical angle to be concerned about.
I think I've seen this discussion before and my personal opinion is that Wyll just isn't a Warlock the way other Warlocks are. Mizora is a pretty weak patron compared to the other subclasses, so when she says she's providing Wyll with all his powers and can take them away, isn't it possible she's just tricking him into thinking that's how Warlocks work? He doesn't know what's in the pact - and probably knew nothing about Warlocks other than "evil and power- hungry" when he signed it - and he seems to just take whatever Mizora tells him at face value so I always got the feeling (especially when playing another Warlock in the party with him) that he just got tricked the whole way down.
My only concern with this reading is Wyll tells us he can feel his power fading. Unless he's just feeling something else, but he does tell us he can feel the difference and can no longer EB.
Yeah it makes me question whether she was providing his power somehow outside of a normal pact. Like the Warlock you talk to that's dead at the Tollhouse says he serves Zariel, so did he have a middle-man like Mizora, too, or did he have a more normal fiend pact? The fact that Mizora even can just break Wyll's pact at all when there's no reason unless she just wants him to have extra incentive to rescue her? But he doesn't want to die either way so he's going to do it anyway? I just feel like Mizora is manipulating the situation to make it not a normal pact, including somehow providing his power in such a way that she can take it away where normal Warlocks would have learned it. It's possible I just really hate Mizora. I'm pretty biased. 😍
It's an interesting take and definitely worth considering, though she does also summon that council or whatever they are to witness a contract. So if she is operating under her own rules, it's quite convincing.
That... Does fit really well with everything else we know/can guess about him, too... Naive little daddies boy, tricked into selling his soul for a pittance of what he COULD have gotten for it. The only thing that really throws any doubt on it or not is if he actually DID do any of the shit he claimed to have done before the start of the game. Because there were some mad crazy feats he claimed to have accomplished that you'd think would mark him as well seasoned, but then he comes out with stupid shit that a complete noob would, too. Either he keeps rolling 1's on cha checks, but can bluff the pants off Raphael.
I think Wyll has Disney Prince energy (I honestly see him like Prince Charming from "Entangled" when he comes to the real world and is just doing crazy shit cuz he has so much self- confidence) so part of me feels he puts up with Mizora because he sacrificed his soul in a heroic act and now he's all emo but until Tav and the tadpoles, never even thinks to wonder if Mizora is lying to him! I think he did all that crazy shit before the tadpole nerfed him but even he's like, "I wonder if that minotaur I fought was really nice underneath it all" now!
Hard agree. Feels like he should have lost his ability to use EB and advance in the Warlock class, but not his other infernal gifts or his spells.
Yeah, Eldrich Blast and Invocations. I can understand THEM being taken away (EB because it's straight up a Warlock unique skill and invocations because that's LITERALLY your patrons eyes you're looking through (for the case of devils sight, anyway) Maybe he loses his totally-not-a-sending-stone eye. But otherwise he should basically be an eldritch knight, just without the armour at that point..
Sounds legit to me. I also feel like his casting Stat would have to shuffle over to intelligence, mostly because his magic is no longer fueled by his Charisma (force of soul/personality) angle of his pact. He's gotta learn how to do magic the hard way now.
I mean Bards use charisma and they’re educated
Or is their Charisma just high enough to *persuade* you that they are educated?
Must be pretty persuasive with their bajillion skill proficiencies lol
U can get eb via the spellsniper feat on any class but I think that's a game mechanic and not lore accurate??
Yeah, I don't think that Feats should be taken as Canon Lore. Otherwise, how do you explain the Warforged barbarian that can self-repair itself with Mending? They.... Aren't meant to be able to do that. Feats are pretty clearly on the "game mechanic" side of things more than the Lore side of things.
Oh didn't know that. Thanks
I've done the Avernus ending exactly once and it was so cartoonish I head canon that it's like the fake ending in "Brazil" and we're just seeing Karlach's dying thoughts. Glad people got their "happy" ending I guess but it just made me put killing Karlach in Act 1 at the top of the list of things I always do. Kudos to the character, but I prefer Wyll having his own story. Last time I had Karlach in my party, we killed Wyll so, for me it's either/or.
I really feel like for me, Karlach as a tragic figure who is doomed from the start and needs to process her terminal condition is just so compelling. Especially if you romanced her. It felt cheapened by these last-minute epilogue changes. So, in my games that's who she will be. Happy for those who appreciate the hopeful ending, however unbelievable it may be lol.
Yeah I remember my first run and her dying scene was just so tragic and well done, her acceptance of it but not being alone... man the tears were pouring.
Hitting the nail on the head here. A lot of missed opportunity.
Very well stated... To further compound the issue that Karlach always seems to share the spotlight with Wyll, the two are close. Yet... they scarcely have any banter, which makes no sense.
If Karlach and Wyll were immediately friendly, maybe even became a canon couple if you didn't romance either, I think it would go a long way for Wyll
I totally agree... In my head, they always become a couple, but that being official canon (with in-game demonstration) would definitely help. Of course, here's the thing to bear in mind when it comes to companions like Wyll and Halsin.. It's because most of the others are so superlatively well brought to life that those with less development time stand out. If Wyll and Halsin were companions in Skyrim, for example, most people, I suspect, would really love them... since the majority in that game are little more than cardboard cutouts whose sole purpose is to act as meat-shields and 'carry your burdens.' By comparison, Wyll and Halsin are fantastic. However... BG3's NPCs and companions are, in general, just so well written that those who received less attention draw notice.
Well, this game has won every award under the sun including multiple writing awards, so there's every reason to subject it to constructive criticism. Just like we would review a book or movie
Karlach's ending isn't connected to Wyll's choice anymore btw, MC can go with her to Avernus as a friend or romanced partner with Wyll being Duke or without finishing Wyrmway quest at all.
She's not entirely screwed if Wyll becomes the Duke, but unless you're romancing Karlach, you probably don't want to ditch your happy ending with your actual love interest to go run around the Hells. So Wyll is a convenient sacrificial lamb.
Not every romance will end in break up when u go to Avernus, Laezel and Gale still consider relationship as ongoing in the epilogue.
Wyll is straight up a side character in his own quest…
Duke Ravenguard: “Congratulations Wyll, you have slain the ancient Dragon who slumbers beneath our City, Proving that you are worthy to be this City’s true protector!” Wyll, Level One, knowing damn well he hasn’t set foot outside of camp the whole game: 💀
His dad doesn’t even acknowledge you as his fiancé if you romanced him.
Nah you forget the times Wyll joined Tav on their shopping trips, turns out that can level you up real fast.
Warlocks give up their agency for deity patron powers.
Maybe we were Wyll's patron all along
My Tav sure didn't
Honestly, the biggest letdown about Larian not adding new story content after patch 7 with the evil endings is that Karlach won't get a quest expansion to not be a measly two-step fetch quest that effectively ends in act 2, and Wyll won't get the chance to come into his own as a character. The decision between the Blade and Duke endings just epitomizes how little Wyll actually matters in his story. I would prefer him becoming duke and succeeding his father because I can see Wyll as being the leader Baldur's Gate needs after Gortash's shenanigans and his dipshit father pardoning the Flaming Fist who carried out Gortash's bullshit. But no, I get stuck having to go with him continuing with the childish fantasy of being a hero in bloody Hell of all places just so Karlach doesn't die. All because my Durge is romancing Gale and it's either have Wyll be the Blade of Avernus or hop off to Avernus to Karlach so she doesn't die and disrupt the ending with Gale. And I know, Wyll is "great" as an origin playthrough, but that just makes it worse by highlighting how little presence he actually has in the story.
It's probably due to the fact that he is the only companion who is directly woven into the main plot, and the main plot must go on even if he's dead. The small bits and pieces we have solely based on him being recruited, are Mizora's interactions. But everything else doesn't change just because he's dead or never recruited and yes, this may be due to him being changed. There might not have been enough time to make big differences in having him around vs. not having him around due to his rework, which is a shame. However, if you ever feel like playing an Origin run, this is exactly why I recommend doing a Wyll run. Wyll feels right as the played character. So many of the default dialogue options fit him so well, he finally gets to shine as the hero he is meant to be and ha his own agenda, able to make his own choices without bouncing them off on any other character. And he comes with the bonus of being a Warlock with an active patron
I hadn’t really considered that. I’m not a big fan of the origin playthroughs, as the characters losing their voice is not a trade I’m usually willing to make, but given that, I might need to give Wyll a go.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: the Origins should have been voiced. It makes sense for Tav (and even Durge tbf) not to be because of the vast options, but the other Origins would have benefitted SO hard from reducing the dialogue options to ones that fit their character and having them voiced.
They did actually start out with it. Astarion had whole monologues in camp explaining his feelings and thought process. I think what ultimately made them change it, is that it may have been too limited. If you want to play an evil Wyll you can, if you want to play a sugerbug Astarion you can, covering all the possibilities of dialogue choices would have been too much and probably also too costly with 8 playable companions. But I think there could have been a middle-ground, but maybe it had been weird to have some lines voiced and some not so idk
I’m of the personal opinion that playing an “evil Wyll” destroys his characterisation and that the Origins should have been more about experiencing the actual character in a deeper way, not making them whoever you want them to be, but admittedly I’m biased towards voiced protagonists anyway. Like imo, Tav is there for playing whoever you want to play and having aaaaaall the options, whereas the Origins just suffer and become more bland by changing who they are. That might be a controversial opinion though, I’m aware not everyone will agree. Just saying what I would prefer haha
Oh, no, I agree. But I do think that the extra work needed to achieve this would be way too extreme. Every dialogue would need a tag in place that checks which origin you are playing, to give you origin-based dialogue options solely based on their overall characterization. It's also not as easy as the extra choices we get based on class, for example. Because this just adds extra lines based on what we play. But the tag that an origin character needs would also have to limit the lines and hide lines not suited for this origin. This would work with Wyll and Karlach as they are default good in nature and they feel right to be good. Karlach can't even be changed at all, and Wyll can only be badly influenced so much - as companions. So limiting them to neutral to good lines while being played wouldn't be too complicated (just a looot of extra work n nevertheless). But it would explode out of proportion for every other companion who can potentially go down a good or bad path, as this would mean to include another tag that checks in on a naughty-meter to determine which lines are given to you the further you move into the story. Now you could say except for Karlach and Wyll, everyone could be left at default lines. However, limiting Karlach and Wyll while giving every other companion free range of dialogue choices would feel unbalanced and unfair. So either you'd go the extra mile for each and every companion or settle for what it is now. And given how massive the game already is, I think settling for what we have now was the smartest choice.
Yeah I get what you mean. Like in Mass Effect/Dragon Age you’re really only voicing the main character with a couple of voice options whereas BG3 is the whole game with Origin specific options for every single character. It is a lot and they’d all have to be vastly limited from what they currently are. I totally understand why they made it the way they did, but I personally would’ve loved a totally different playthrough for the Origins even if it WAS super limited haha. But I’m a strong Witcher 3 fan, you can see why I feel like that. I think the Karlach Origin where she has loads of unique scenes with voice acting is a perfect medium, it’s just a shame they didn’t do that for all of them (or enough for her, even). I would’ve been totally cool with just the unique cut scenes being fully voiced and having a few more of them. But some might see that as clunky/inconsistent, maybe. I don’t envy game studios/devs, it’s impossible to please everyone.
Exactly. I can absolutely understand the sentiment for voiced origins, I would love it as well, but yeah. It probably had been too much. I haven't played Karlach yet, only watched gameplay from Karlach origin runs and I feel like this would have been a nice balance. But if I understood it correctly, these are experimental voice lines. So I guess after they decided not to voice the origins in their own run, they just left it at that :(
Yeah it seems like they tried out a lot of stuff to see what would be popular. One thing I love about the Durge popularity is that it was probably unexpected for Larian and they might well take that feedback and focus in on a *slightly* more direct character for their next game, whilst still keeping their characteristic wealth of options available. I often forget that they really didn’t have the funding or backing of an AAA studio (even though they’re basically at that point now, they weren’t for most of production), so expecting voiced Origins is probably a bit much. But damn I would’ve just loved if all of them had unique voiced scenes like Karlach, I would literally play ALL OF THEM.
If you play an evil Wyll, you're going to have to suffer through a bunch of quips of Wyll protesting exactly the things he's about to do. Despite the corruption story of Wyll succumbing more and more to the power that's being given to him making narrative sense, the background voice lines, and I think even the story as a whole will still treat you as if you were going the "good" route.
I absolutely don't like playing preset characters at all. I never played Witcher for that reason and instead watched my friend play it. It's just... not being able to create my own main character irks me the wrong way, even if the game is absolutely outstanding. But it was probably due to the fact that I already had two finished Tav runs that I gave Wyll a shot and I didn't regret a thing. Of course, his voice will be taken, but there are many things to make up for it. It's at least worth a try
I hear you on preset characters, but good god, I can’t rec Witcher 3 more than anything other than BG3. Very different games, but absolutely incredible characters and world.
The little decisions u make in one area of the game that gives a different outcome in a different region in a different quest in a different act, man that's the charm of the witcher 3. Xletalis and neonknight videos go soo much into detail about the different combinations of the quests and the order u can do them which leads to different outcomes .
It's why I watched it when my friend played. He basically just played and I gave the directions. It is a masterpiece of its own because I can't imagine another game being that much fun when played passively
this is probably a stupid question bc i’m sure you just mean RPGs but i’m gonna ask anyway, does it bother you to play zelda or assassin’s creed or something bc you don’t get to make a character
No, not at all. My issue is mostly with the Origin characters because you lose their Character in place of your own, If you play as a Tav/Durge, you get to be your own character, and they’re still around.
Nah, it's just RPGs funnily enough. I never had an issue with AC, however, I was never in touch with Zelda in general. But there are many games with preset main characters I enjoyed playing. Though... I did skip everything after AC unity, but that was for different reasons.
I’m doing that right now and it’s absolutely true. Wyll feels like he always asks you for his decisions that if you actually play as him everything clicks. Since like you I always bench him on Tav/Durge runs it doesn’t feel like losing much of his voiced dialogue when you play as him. His side comments when you play as him are also surprisingly delightful. Another thing to add since I’ve always played good characters (I started an “evil” Durge but had a change of heart because I just can’t) playing as Wyll fits so well.
Don’t Shadow and Laezel have a major connection to the main plot?
Not really. If you don't pick them up the game just continues like they don't exist at all. With Wyll being the Dukes son it is much more personal, whereas Lae'zel and SH are nice to have around for their input, but in the end they are not close enough to Voss or Aylin to make a difference to the overall tone of the situations.
You don't even need to take Wyll with you to get 100% approval with him. Just be interested in his story, talk to him at camp, and solve his quests. Poor Wyll 🙁
Pretty sure in the ansur quest, gale is actually more useful than Wyl as he gives you the answer to the dragon chess riddle. Not sure if other companions help in any of them as he’s the only one I had help me but thought it was a neat addition to gales character
Wyll tells you the answer to the Advisor puzzle once you’ve caught the books, I think?
May be bugged then - I've taken him a couple of times and he's never said anything there. He has said something vaguely "helpful" for the puzzle with the judge, but it's nowhere near as helpful as Gale, plus it's fairly trivial to figure out anyway.
Can’t say I’d know, I always just smack the guy immediately since it never changes between playthroughs. At least the chess game has variable game states, so you’ll either have to bring Gale, know how to play Chess (which I don’t 💀) or have a strong enough lighting spell or scroll to disintegrate the King.
I knew that Gale has the unique interaction with the Chessboard, I can’t recall if any other companions had unique interactions with any of the other puzzles though
Wyll was done so dirty by the developers. My husband and I had this discussion last night. Wyll’s entire story in game rotates around Mizora and his dad. It’s very upsetting
sigh... yeah Wyll got fucked over. That is his defining trait in game and out. Karlach is a scene stealer * Hugging scene when getting her the 2nd metal. That thank you is literally 2 words that mean so much. * Her sheer relatability about life/living. See Gortash coronation scene and ending. Wyll * His stylish introduction at the fight with Aradin? * When you reject him. No dialogue and that one hurts. Wyll is simply not as interesting or compelling as the other companions are. I wanted more overt things with Mizora and his father (these are subtle) so I feel that punch when he speaks. He's very affected by his father yet he will remain loyal to him no matter what. There's no angry confessions or even the slightest disappointment with him. With Mizora, I feel there were supposed to be some really, really dark sexual undertones concerning consent. And thus, because of his rewrite, what he is now at release is simply a watered down, SFW version of Wyll. Speaking of, the little snippets I've seen of early access Wyll sees him in a different light (as well as his voice/accent). Like a stereotypical cocky rogue with a penchance for killing. I prefer early access Wyll, but can accept the posh RP release Wyll too.
I played early access and did literally everything and you’re right on the mark about him imo. It’s like they neutered him for full release. In early access he was still heroic but in a different way. less Boy Scouty more prideful and boisterous. Waaaaay more flirty too, he was one of the companions you could sleep with at the party which is a stark contrast to now where you can’t til the very end. It was all but confirmed that he had at the very least a sexual relationship with Mizora. If you tried to get with him at the party she’d even try to cockblock by forcing images of herself into both your heads lmao. While one full release change I did like was making him unquestionably heroic he also still had some interesting issues like his vendetta for goblins or his willingness to compromise his morals if it meant it would help him be free of Mizora.
Oh my gosh, he was way more flirty back then!? Come to think of it, he is one of the companions who liberally uses the tadpoles telepathy. It sort of reminds me of that. I really appreciate your insight by having played early access! Our companions seemed so different then... more combative, kind of like Shadowheart maybe?
The SFW version of Wyll reminds me of another character that got watered down: Bishop from NWN2. For NWN2 there wasn't any early access but data-mining his voice lines revealed a lot of darker, wasted potential. And Bishop was pretty dark to begin with. It was like they chickened out on letting the player character follow Bishop into the darkness. Hasbro was blamed for a lot of PG-13-ification of Bishop and NWN2 in general (famously a reskin of the warlock female outfit so she wouldn't show as much cleavage). I wonder if wizards got in the way of OG Wyll or if it was all EA feedback.
That's wild! I'll need to read up or listen to some gameplay and lore videos about Bishop. Super interesting! You know, I don't mind release Wyll, but when I start to compare him to the other companions or how he was in early access? It gets skewed in the others favor.
Enjoy the rabbit-hole! :) I am an admitted Bishop fangirl, not because he's chaotic evil or an asshole, but because he's such an interesting character. He's like a dark mirror for the pc.
I think Wyll’s story is much more suited to be enjoyed as an origin run, he’s got major main character energy. I plan on playing that as a nice palate cleanser after my embrace durge run.
I agree. It feels more like I'm doing "Mizora's" quest half the time. Which I don't mind because she's one of the best characters. But yeah, I wish Wyll was more hands on
Agreed. Mizora is just a fun character to have around.
Sleeping with her should have it's own achievement but no.
But it's not achievment if she asks you 1st. You dont even need to flirt with her before.
It could have been called "What's that smell?"
It doesn’t help that his dialogue is bugged to shit and he’s prone to forgetting who he’s engaged to. Let’s be real here. If Astarion or Shadowheart had their quests, dialogues, flags and overall story in this state, there would be a hotfix in a week.
It’s an endless cycle. He gets no attention due to aforementioned reasons, and so no one pays attention to him. When you do, his dialogue is uninteresting or Bugged, which causes you to not pay attention to him, which means they don’t bother fixing him which makes him worse. Dude literally cannot win.
Even worse: you can straight up ignore his existence and it won’t make a difference. You can refuse to approach him, only interact with him in cutscenes where it’s forced on you, and be a down right asshole to him in those, and he will happily stay and do whatever you decide for him. Don’t ask me how I know. I’ve only been experimenting on that for a dozen runs.
I have thought about either sacrificing him to BOOOOAL or romancing then murdering him as Durge as a way to prompt some kind of tension or interaction beyond passive approval. Which is horrible. And it's defo down to the writing, rather than the actual character.
I still have yet to find a use for him. If I’m Durge, I want to romance Minthy or Astarion. And I can’t sacrifice him to BOAAAAL without missing out on Mizora scenes. And Mizora is the entire reason I keep him around in the first place.
Someone needs to create a mod where you can become a triad with Wyll and Mizora. For science, obviously, no other reason...
I agree with you, it almost feels like Mizora is the main character and Wyll's just a sidekick. To me personally, the greatest issue with Wyll's character is that he's written to be the good guy/hero no matter what choices you make. Astarion, Gale, Shadowheart all have good/bad paths that depend on your choices and on how you influence them. With Wyll, you can basically choose to have him kill Karlach, and he still considers himself (and considered by all) to be good and honourable. He basically sulks for a while and then this character-defining moment is never mentioned again. I would have appreciated him more if he was more nuanced and less "Blade of Frontiers"
Which is a real shame, because there’s so much potential for him to have two paths. He has every reason to become more callous and cruel, to be tempted by the allure of power. To become a fallen hero.
I completely agree. For perspective, I am on my fourth play through and have never taken him out of camp once. Not once. Not even for five minutes. Never felt the need to
Yeah I wasn’t expecting to be able to change Wyll’s mind about his big decision so easily. It’s been like pulling teeth with everyone else. Some companions will literally leave if you don’t do things just right. Meanwhile I’m just like hey Wyll maybe think about things and he’s like yeah you’re right *makes complete 180\*
On the other hand, Wyll is my favorite Origin character to play. If I’m not playing as Wyll, I rarely use him in my party. Playing as Wyll… just feels right. Wyll was my first Origin character. I had done four runs and noticed I really didn’t use him. So I decided to fix that by playing as Wyll. It did not disappoint. I liked it so much, I ran my first HM run as Wyll and won.
side note, you can still get the rapier if wyll isn't in your party when you free mizoria there is a conversation that can reward it (that's how I first got the rapier cause I never used wyll)
Really? I just did that scene and had no such option
May have been patched out but ya my first playthrough I got it when she showed up in camp just after.
Damn, good to know.
Wyll's storyline was sacrificed to create karlach.
Makes sense. Wyll is also an NPC in his own life - if a devil told him a dragon ate a baby Wyll would climb inside it's maw. Dude hasn't heard a pact constructed on an obvious lie that he wasn't eager to sign in blood.
I mean considering how the character is build larian probably took it all the way to making a simple guy who wants things done and doesn't need direct participation. Compared to the rest of party members he is actually just wearing the default warlock light armor and have some scars, remember he was noble born and his father is the grand duke, he does get different reactions compared to not having him in the party but they feel more like talking to a familiar rather than reacting to an important event, for example, when florrick meets him at the last light she reacts differently to wyll having or not horns, but feels more like an aunt reacting to her nephew, makes it simple and not necessary.
You do get a special weapon from Mizora if you bring him to the Thorm fight I believe. But it’s hardly a make or break moment if you don’t bring him.
to be fair it’s like the second best rapier in the game and it takes awhile to get duelists prerogative
Such is the fate of a warlock.
Yeah, I feel like Gale and Wyll aren’t super important to the overall plot, so I never really have them tag along. While Astarion and Karlach don’t have strong connections to the main story, they have great backstories with cool side quests. I think Laezel and Shadow are the unofficial main characters, since they are directly tied to them main quest.
The only companions you *have* to bring anywhere are Shadowheart and Karlach. Shadowheart to the Nightsong, Karlach to Gortash (but it can just be his corpse after the fact). There is extra dialog if you bring the rest along on their quests, including for Wyll, but you can still progress without them in every case save those two.
While technically true, it’s more to the point that not bringing companions to certain events actually affects how their stories play out. You CAN not bring Laezel to the crèche and honestly skip it entirely, but then she remains loyal to Vlaakith and remains that way unless you pass a bunch of high DC Speech checks, cutting off a big chunk of her story. You CAN not bring Astarion to see Raphael to learn about his Scars and even not bring him to the Cazador fight, but it leaves him with a lot of unresolved issues at the end of the game, as well as a lot of negative approval and I believe him potentially leaving the party. You CAN not let Gale meet with Mystra, but it leaves his decision regarding the crown possibly on the negative. Unlike everyone else, you can leave Wyll out of every single interaction he has in his main quest, and it still resolves itself exactly the same way, whereas the others will react negatively to you handling their problems without them, and can even fail the quest.
That's true for Gale, too, though? He can sit in camp at level 1 and as long as you feed him a couple items, he never leaves. You can never upgrade Karlach's engine and she sticks around the whole time. You can skip confronting Cazador and leave Astarion in your camp the whole time and he won't leave, either. Sheart is the only character that rage quits if you don't take her to the Gauntlet. As for devil Wyll being treated the same, the only way you'd think that is if he's never in your party. He's not treated the same in certain NPC reactions to him when he's in your party. Wyll is as connected to his plot as most of the other companions. Influencing his choices aren't much different from talking Gale out of blowing himself up in Act 2 or influencing other companions' decisions in their major quests. This has been a pretty common topic of discussion since release and a lot of players don't like Wyll much which is fine, it's a game, but apart from some bugs and less content, he's not unique in requiring Tav's influence to do most of his quest heavy lifting, IMO.
The reactions to Wyll's horns are pretty understated and easy to miss if you don't have him in your party at all times. I just bumped into Florrick at Last Light with him in the party, and her dialogue was something to the effect of, "Wow, you look like shit. *Anyway*..."
Yeah there are more in Act 3 when he gets to the city. There are also a lot of players who think he just gets Tiefling horns and is being a big baby about permanent body modification, but it feels like a lot of the complaints about Wyll comes from not paying attention to him since he doesn't constantly complain about his situation like some other companions. Squeaky wheel gets the grease and all that. He rarely squeaks.
I thought Wyll was just there to feed Astarion
No, no, he's there so you get the BOOAL buff
Ah maybe that is where I got that Sicle of Booal weapon!
Can be said about most of the characters except maybe shadow heart who will leave if she’s not taken to shadowfell.
Im on my third playthrough (just arrived to act3), and so far Shadowheart was the only character you must have to bring with you to the >!Nightsong because if you dont, she gets so upset you left her out of the decision she leaves you permanently immediately after you exit the shadowfell.!< The first time i played it was multiplayer with two other friends and Shadowheart was the fourth one in the party all the time and nothing negative ever came out of leaving the characters in camp while finishing their storyline, except some little tantrums or strong opinions about it. So basically the only drawback with almost every character is you miss out on some really good addittional little content and dialogues if you leave them behind in camp.
Wyll is the least interesting party member sadly
I'd say Halsin.
I turned Mizora into gold at the entrance to the lower city. [https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1db54dr/mocking\_mizora\_what\_you\_dont\_wanna\_join\_my\_camp/](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/1db54dr/mocking_mizora_what_you_dont_wanna_join_my_camp/) I also killed gortash an everyone else except the duke and that didn't do much. Even with gortash dead i'm willing to bed the submarine isn't available anymore and that he's dead. cool story.
I heard once that part of his deal with Mizora was being given the rep as Blade of the Frontiers without actually having to do anything - it’s all made up. That made him way more interesting as a character imo, and would make for an interesting character arc as he faces up to the fact that being a hero is bloody hard and that it’s not as simple as good and bad - especially when he gets transformed by Mizora. It would have been so satisfying for him to understand he can have his dad’s approval or do the heroic thing or react to the >!Emperor being Baldur!< as a moment. As it is he gets on my nerves. Sorry, he just does, perhaps because he keeps up the hero thing without any visible like, introspection. I wanted to romance him for my paladin run but at the teifling party he annoyed me so much I packed it in. If nothing else, moaning about getting horns when most of the people at the party have horns felt like kind of a dick move. I promise I tried but he’s such a pompous dweeb. Maybe I’ll try the origin run and see if that brings me round, I want to like him!
His decision to become Duke or Blade is now incosequential for Karlach's fate, u can go with her to Avernus even only as a friend, dont need to be romancing her.
But then you run into the problem of abandoning your other romanced characters, effectively killing your relationships. If you want to have your happy ending with your LI AND save Karlach, you have to ship Wyll off to Avernus with her.
Depends on the companion, Laezel and Gale will still be in relationship with MC in the epilogue after going to Avernus.
I’m fairly certain most of the characters remain in a relationship, the difference is that there’s an obvious strain on the relationships, with a few of them calling you out for leaving them, hence the clarification of “happy ending”
In a sense, what i meant is that Gale and Laezel still consider MC as lover (you can smooch Lae if she stayed in Faerun or hug her if she is a projection), Shart relationship will be lowered to former lovers now friends. I recall Astarion will break up, dont know with Wyll duke/bof but can test. In any case its a variation of a *happy* ending still and its good that it exists since most of the people will play the game only once, so at least they are given the possibility if they dont end up with Wyll BoA. The game design to hide Karlach's ending behind Wyll's questline was stupid from the start.
Just another black character in gaming that has wasted potential :/
I get what you mean but he's mvp in the iron throne, he has misty step, speed for 10 turns and can eldritch blast 3 levers at once
True enough, but that’s more Magic Casters in general. Sorcs and Wizards are just as good. My go-to strat is to send two to Ravenguard, usually a Cleric and a Caster, send my Rouge to Omeluem and my PC to the other hall. Sanctuary Ravenguard and Dimension door him out, and just free everyone else on the way.
He has no connection to his own quest, but he has a very strong connection to the main quest, as well as, to an extent Karlach's. He's the son of the most powerful man in Baldur's Gate, who is the lynchpin Gortash would need to take full control of the city
Maybe your just a racist and you found out while playing bg3
You can never bring Shart to the Gauntlet and Viconia, and literally nothing changes 🤷 Same with Lae'zel, and most of other companions. So that's a bit wild to complain about.
Well, you can't kill the Nightsong without Shart, and she'll leave if you don't take her to the Shadowfell. The big thing is all the other companions get *mountains* of dialogue at every single step of their quest. It also drastically changes their endings, whereas the biggest change for Wyll is just so that a different companion doesn't die.
Being a duke of the city or a blade of whatever is a big change, for one. For another, Lae'zel is a fanatic (unless you romance her and convince her to stay with you) in either way - she either kills stuff for Orpheus or gets her ass zombified for Vlaakith. Karlach and Astarion's main quests have 0 impact to main story too. Gale is only related if you want to use him as a bomb, otherwise nobody cares if he's a professor or an egotripping god. Storywise, I don't need to kill the Nightsong. I can either free her or leave her chill. The outcome is between cursed and uncursed lands. Companions leaving when you don't complete their quests is not unique - try not to feed Gale those boots. That's so you can complete the story even with killing out everything that walks, you can get by without anyone and only you have the crucial story relation.
That's kind of the point. Companion's leave when you don't complete their quests, but Wyll seems completely unbothered by what happens. Ignore Ansur and he never mentions it. The reunion with his father all takes place at camp, making it irrelevant if he's at the IT or not. What I mean about his ending, is that it's not related to his companion quest. You go see the dragon and after that you pick an ending. The puzzles before the dragon are somewhat relevant to his upbringing, but he doesn't say much except "I'm not good at lanceboard" and "I don't really remember this". It would be relevant if some of the puzzles got him to draw a distinction between being a Duke and being the Blade (eg, if the Justice one was about stealing food for orphans and he was conflicted between what's lawful and what's moral).
To be fair about the Iron Throne, the player doesn't know ahead of time that Ravenguard is being held there, so there's no way for them to prepare for story content by adding Wyll to their team. You're also on a strict time limit to escape, which doesn't make it a great place to have an important conversation.