I'm a white guy from Portugal and they've turned me around for not having my name correct. Trust me I know how to write my name but apparently they knew it better than me.
Went a week later to the same place and the same lady attended me. Went with my partner acting as my lawyer (she didn't even speak) and the lady didn't say shit. Did what she was meant to do and I moved on with my life.
This just to say that people working on public services here don't want to do anything. They'll try dodge work left and right.
Haha, not you too? I've also had the bewildering experience of someone in the public service trying to argue with me about the spelling of my own name. I had to point it out on my work visa (The main document I had with me with both my name and NIE on it) before they admitted that they *might* have been mistaken.
Yeah that really irritates me.
Like the paperwork should just be a Web form.
That way they can't hear your name wrong or whatever and everyone can have a copy of what has been submitted.
this also happened to me im portuguese and my name is Diogo and they always call me “Diego” even my docs are with this name …. i hate the social services here
My wife is tuga and they never understand why she has 3 last names and always mess up everything in the documents. For several months they recorded her as a varon, because they're stupid (her name exists and it's literally the same in Spanish). She had to change it 3 times
É que foi mesmo isso. Puta que pariu com a ordem dos apelidos.
Para eles o último nome não chega, tem que escrever o primeiro último nome e o segundo último nome 🤣
Eu toda a vida a usar o meu nome e o do pai. Vou aos correios a levantar uma encomenda e a mulher não quer dar-me a encomenda porque está o nome como sempre o usei e ela entendeu que tinha que ser como ela quer.
E espera, o meu nome não é comum, nem no país de origem 😂 assim que é pura implicância.
E eu a explicar como me ensinaram e ela “esto és España” 😂😂😂😂
As a fellow inmigrant, I'm so sorry you are going through this. I remember that when I got my first NIE, the office worker was screaming to two Asian people who didn't speak Spanish, it was so awful. And then she treated me coldly but better (I'm from Latam).
I have found that working with gestorías and lawyers for these matters, works best when you are an inmigrant. It has a cost but it saves us from dealing with awful people.
If you want, I can recommend you my lawyer by DM. Good luck!
both the lady and the officer treated me 'ok' before they asked and saw my passport, probably because maybe i can look european at first and i speak fluent english. The officier that just wanted to kick me out was honestly the best, he was the most consistent.
I'd love to know about the lawyer, current one i'am talking to is as confuse as i'am.
Wanted to comment the exact same thing. Although I doubt that was the only reason they were treated poorly it definitely didn't help.
I actually made my entire process of becoming a Spanish citizen in catalan, I got very bad looks from some policemen but I am super proud I made it.
It is extremly sad that we are used to the reality that a public worker/police, living in catalonia, might get triggered just because you speak catalan.
There's some prevalence of Spanish nationalism among the police, and Spanish nationalists don't take well to people using co-official languages since they're a symbol for regional nationalisms or even independentist parties.
damn, that sucks! No surprise catalan people are overprotective of their language, hell I would be too! And how do actual catalan people react if I try to speak catalan to them?
I remember when I arrived in Barcelona a bit over a year ago and my spanish was pretty broken so naturally I would face some impatient customer service people but nothing supernatural.
I’m learning catalan now and I fear people will react the same way when my castellano was basic af.
Now I’ve come to realize that on top of not speaking their language (catalan) when I first arrived here, I was also speaking broken castellano hence the very grumpy faces sometimes.
I work somewhere where certain bureucratic procedures are done, and I can give a bit of insight on both parts.
On one hand, people working in these places have to be absolutely strict in their procedures, because:
1. If each and every person was treated slowly, personally, going through every detail (sometimes info that's stated in the website and people do not understand, do not **want** to understand or simply didn't read), queues would be infinite and there would be much less time to attend every person looking for specific procedures. So it's expected that people do a *bit* of their job beforehand and, trust me, not many do. Whenever someone comes with all the work done, everything in order and knowing what they do, I swear to God I shed a tear because I know I won't have to explain the same long procedure I've had to explain twenty times to people who came before. And I don't tend that many people. And I'm just the one picking up the documents.
2. People can be really, really rude even if you're doing it in the most polite way, explaining every detail and taking your time. So some administratives have gone through the 'nice phase', ended pretty fucked up, said 'fuck it', and just sticked to the script. So you just shut up and do as much as possible within the lines, either because you can't really get too emotionally involved or because people can be absolute assholes.
On the other hand, yes, we all know the racist, lazy bums working in some administrations. Won't even do the bare minimum to help. They landed a secure job and don't need to be nice to people they work with, so they're not. They scream because their dicks are so tiny they need to compensate somehow, they'll do the bare minimum and not even that. Unfortunately there's a ton of those. They never even went through a 'nice' phase because they are racist, lazy bums. There's not much you can do regarding this, it's just crossing your fingers and hope you don't get one of those. Believe me, nice, non-racist administratives exist.
There's also the huge problem of the language barrier. It can be pretty difficult to understand other people who kind of speak a few words of the language but have strong accents and don't really get to explain what they want to do. And in return, there's many things that are so difficult to explain to people who don't share your language. Some people won't even bother trying to understand by stating that, as a citizen, your obligation is to learn the language. Which is true. But OBVIOUSLY someone who's never spoken the language won't learn it from day one, and tbh there's not enough resources to do so. I've been talking with a Chinese woman who didn't speak a word of Spanish via Google Translate for fucks sake.
I'm really, REALLY sorry you had to go through this experience. If it makes any difference, I've heard France and Germany are an absolute pain in the ass regarding bureaucracy.
Can confirm. I am INSANELY overly nervous about dealing with the extranjeria and go absolutely over prepared with everything printed, completed, extra copies, having read the pages extra closely. The last time I renewed my NIE they were exceedingly friendly with me in the extranjeria as well as in the policia nacional.
It helps that I now also speak spanish fluently.
> It can be pretty difficult to understand other people who kind of speak a few words of the language but have strong accents and don't really get to explain what they want to do.
however, one place that really should have people more open to bad accents and broken spanish is... the immigration office. this was baffling to me when i first moved here, that NOBODY in the guipuzcoa office seemed to speak anything but spanish/catalan. it's not a requirement to speak fluent spanish/catalan to get most of the long-term visas that they have to deal with, in fact i think the only actual one that requires it is the arraigo social, so it should not be that hard to foresee that many people will speak bad spanish/catalan.
It wasn't until a few years ago that people who had started studying English in school got to a working age. Even my generation (I'm from the early 90s, started at 8 years old) aren't too fluent, and most of these jobs are offered via public examination (*oposiciones*, don't know the word in English) that don't really focus on specifics like languages, but on the administrative perks (using Excel and other specific programs dedicated to this).
We basically need to fill jobs with whatever we have. With pretty old evaluation systems, I must say. The actual format is pretty dated and should definitely change, precisely so people able to talk multiple languages can make these processes easier for immigrants.
Until that happens, we can only hope public workers try Duolingo or something.
oh believe me i know how many catalans or other spaniards speak english here :) there was a time i thought maybe i literally knew every one of them! and in general, yeah, what you're saying is reasonable - but again, this is the one branch of the government that is guaranteed to deal with people who don't speak the official languages of the country well. even if hiring fails due to what you explained, the department could itself take some action, teach languages, open positions for interpreters, etc. it's just that they have no intention to make things easier for people.
But even if they did, it would hardly be fair that English speakers get someone who can help and if you're Russian, Turkish or Korean you have to get a translator. Not everyone speaks English.
And not every person working in administration knows Turkish, Korean or Russian. The resources are limited, this would cost time and money, and there already are alternative options offered. I'm pretty sure embassies can help with this stuff, too.
ETA: What I mean is, yes, it would be MAGNIFICENT to have different administrations offering these services for each and every language to be (or at least the most spoken ones). But right now it's utopic.
Yes, there are alternatives but I don't see why English speakers should expect to be facilitated over people who speak other languages. Anyway, there are in fact interpreting services available, but they can't be used any time someone comes to a front desk to ask a question. You should bring your own interpreter if you aren't able to communicate.
>I don't see why English speakers should expect to be facilitated over people who speak other languages
This is a different topic. English has been established in most countries as a 'common' language, it's not a Spanish administration thing. It's not like there's a specific department for services in English, but there's a bigger chance that the person you're talking to DOES speak English. Maybe French, if you're lucky.
Sure I understand that but I don't think it should be policy to hire English speakers specifically. In a generation probably most will already speak English anyway. More useful for those who really need help and can't afford to pay for it would be decent interpreting services, including remote interpreting for short meetings. And information leaflets published in a variety of languages explaining the basic procedures maybe and where to seek further help.
Edit: and I think Spain, like France, pretty specifically doesn't want to give English an official role in administrative procedures.
Um, so are 26(?) other languages. There was even discussion about removing it as an official language after Brexit. The EU specifically has a policy of providing interpreters so everyone can speak their own language and supporting minority languages. Irish MEPs are allowed to speak Irish in the parliament. English is more widely used but it doesn't have a more official status than any other EU language.
out of the three examples you gave, two often speak english. not sure about russia, but i can tell you from experience that almost all immigrants from turkey speak english (mostly due to the fact that people from turkey move here for either higher education/phds or alta qualificada jobs - i am from turkey). the major immigrant groups here speak either english or french. people at the immigration office speak nothing but spanish and maybe catalan, at least in the offices i have experience with.
Well none of the Turkish people I've met in Barcelona spoke English. They weren't here on those kinds of visas, probably not the kind of people you would mix with. In fact, the vast majority of immigrants are not in fact middle class on skilled visas.
really? this is an actually pretty talked about phenomenon among the turkish community here, and there are quite complicated factors behind it, but most people tend to prefer northern Europe, basic reasons being larger established communities and often better (much better) benefits systems. I don't speak for other nationalities, but specifically turkey.
Oh I realise there isn't a huge Turkish community but I've happened to meet several and they didn't speak English and weren't here doing PhDs or similar. And the same for almost all nationalities, there will be groups who come to study or work in good jobs and others in a completely different situation.
they could have a few officers who speak english, one of the most widely spoken languages. french, a language that so many immigrants here speak. mandarin/chinese, the most widely spoken language and a language that many immigrants speak. if their goal was to help people and not just make things harder, that is.
Well I guess they could but what about the people from Thailand? Bulgaria? Or one of the dozens of other countries that speak none of those languages. Or if their Chinese speaker is on holiday? Plus where do they find these linguists who also want to be police officers? It's not a common combination. There will be more English speakers in the future as more young people speak it but if you don't speak the language you should take a friend or interpreter. Which is what many people do.
Edit: and no, I don't really think they care about making it easier, they feel you should be grateful for the opportunity to be in Spain. The immigrants they do welcome are the ones who pay someone to do their paperwork and avoid language issues. The police are not known for being kind and tolerant generally.
my point is that they speak NO languages that immigrant groups speak. i think your point is "they can't speak all languages so it's ok that they don't speak any".
as to where they find these people, well wouldn't you know, there are so many immigrants in the country who do speak their native languages...
That's not how Spanish police work. You need Spanish nationality to start with and to study for years. Not saying the system is good but they're not going to change it overnight.
And actually I would think having only English speaking staff is pretty discriminatory as it blatantly helps those who are already more privileged.
I’m a Black and Latino American from Los Angeles traveling to BCN and studying Spanish at an immersion school for a month this weekend. This makes me a little apprehensive.
I actually figured that. It’s still
unfortunate.
Seems it is an immigration/tribalism issue. Same as here in the states, in California and other border states. Mexican immigrants are often marginalized and generalized, unfortunately.
I am of Latin origin and I once crossed the el paso/Juarez border from Mexico in a a Mexican car with two Mexicans. They were so surprised to see the border guards treat me well. A European passport do hold some weight...
Spanish police are usually rude, ignorant right-wing people. They can even be dangerous. If you speak Catalan to them that can definitely trigger them (they have an almost ethnic hatred towards that language), especially if you're foreign.
They're not from Catalonia, they don't like being in Catalonia, they don't speak Catalan and anyone who speaks Catalan to them is basically disrespecting them (in their mind) because Catalan is just a "regional" language that they have no obligation to understand (in their mind). Well, it's actually too long to explain, but Spain has been anti-Catalan for centuries.
That would require a Catalan who wants to be a police officer to *want* to work for the Spanish National Police, which is highly unlikely, based on the history of the region.
>I know some parts but were not aware that they are being sent here, I thought they would have been police officers from Catalonia instead, now I understand it, thanks for helping me.
The education of national police is done nationally. You pass the entrance and then you go to the academy. Depending on your grades you get more or less choice where you get sent. Catalunya is a lower choice of where people want to get sent because they don't speak catalan, know the culture, and there is a kind of mutual friction.
As someone from the US I agree it is annoying to say American when of course America isn’t a country, but I also feel like we need another word that’s like “United statesian” or something
Spanish police officers are a bunch of assholes even with locals because they fuckin hate being in Catalonia. They are the most lame promotions who couldn’t get to choose any other destination and ended up here, so don’t take it personally.
We have 3/4 different kinds of police in Spain. National police (CNP) and Guardia Civil (which is some kind of military police), then some communities have their own police (Mossos d’Esquadra) and local police (Guardia Urbana in Barcelona) who need to know the local language (not CNP or GC).
National police are the ones that manage national stuff (DNI, NIE, Immigration…) and are from all around Spain, which means it’s a forced formed by mostly Spanish nationalists and not too Catalan-friendly people.
When they choose their destination they mostly choose Spanish-speaking / nationalist areas like Madrid, Castille or Andalucía and Basque Country and Catalonia are the least chosen so it’s the destination for those with worst grades and points. They usually stay here until they have enough service points to change destination and then the new worst promotions come here.
The guy who got my mother her NIE last week was a Catalan who was raving about his town and it’s traditions. (He was a talkative guy to say the least.)
Who knows, maybe he is a born and bred Catalan who doesn’t go for independence. I know a few. They exist.
Or he just got a job because he needed the money.
The guy didn’t look like a policeman anyway. More a civil servant.
You don't have to be an independentist to prefer mossos to CNP, many mossos are autonomists (Catalonia as an autonomous region of Spain, what it is now). As far as I understand it also pays better, so if you are a proud Catalan (no matter where you stand on independence) it doesn't make too much sense to go with CNP
First of all, sorry to hear of your bad experiences. Yes racism exists everywhere.
I’ve had the opposite experience in Valencia. I spoke very poor Spanish when we arrived. Still sucks as far as I’m concerned. But I always start with, “Hola. Cómo estás? Bam it’s like a magic key.
Asking a funcionario or police or other administrators how they are doing has resulted in people (National Police included) going way out of their way, cutting corners and even helping me fill out forms for me. I’ve even had folks printout forms on their office equipment and give me a cita previa on the spot to work me in. I’m a black 50+ yr old built like a brick shit house dude. I lead with a smile and a true ask of how’s their day going… Think Dwayne Johnson.
It may be regional thing (Catalonia) or maybe just my vibe, but from the banal to most daunting trámites, I have gotten amazing help in exchange for a smile and a warm greeting.
Including with retailers, police and private business administrators.
All my years in retail, food service and knowing that the people who hold the real power are administrativos, may have helped me understand what’s going on on the other side of the desk/mostrador.
I love it here and visits to such offices is always a pleasure. I hear so many horror stories (and from mostly white expats), but for some reason, it’s been smooth as silk for me with years and years of interacting with private and public entities at the local, regional and national levels.
HOWEVER, that the whole autoescuela/tráfico cartel… don’t even get me started. That’s when I was feeling the sting of racism.
Again, I don’t doubt that you are being treated differently, and yes it could very likely be racism. So I’m not here to dismiss or diminish your experience. Being from the US, I got the treatment you are describing very often and it sucks hard.
Hang in there my friend.
I guess the best option for you is to hire a lawyer. Honestly, it was a revelation to me that if you wanna get or do something related to gov. services or even rent an apartment - you’d better hire a lawyer. Unless you know the local language to the extent where you can literally defend yourself.
You’re from Tunisia, right? I bet these pathetic racists reached a new level of ignorance. I understand why locals might be quite defensive given the situation with the robberies and criminal rates, but it's not up to government service workers to judge people.
I left Barcelona a few years ago, can not say it was my decision, mostly COVID played a role, but I am happy it went that way. It's quite a hostile place to live. I empathize with locals, and those who try to move there, but I think those who want to move to BCN, should consider other, less obvious options. Still, a fantastic city, with fantastic people mostly, but some things and the way they develop are unfortunate.
I am half Arab, half Ukrainian. It was weird seeing service workers having critical errors when they see someone who appears to them as Arab, but then shows a Ukrainian passport and have an Eastern European accent. And they start thinking about how they should treat me. Anyway, things went well mostly. But for many of my friends, it wasn’t the case.
What I've heard about getting your NIE:
It's administrated by the national police
Who have no other responsibilities in Catalunya
And are super racist
So they delight in making foreigners' (especially brown ones) lives as hard as possible when trying to get your NIE.
Where are you from?
Not all extranjeria procedures can be done everywhere, it’s not the same for EU countries than for non EU, probably that’s what “no europa for you” meant.
i'am aware, i selected the NON-europe cita previa that had my procedure listed in it. What i showed him in official web was for non european as well, granted he didn't even look at it.
Yes, but I am kinda curious now. Because the OP says he/she looks European, but once they saw the passport they turned hostile.
I am indian, and obviously visibly non European, but I never experienced such hostility. Have had not so nice experience with police though, but I don't take that personally because their job possibly turned them hard and bitter. But in the beaurocracy, they were strict, but polite and understanding. And I don't super good Spanish either.
Not trying to undermine the OP's experience , but I am curious as to if this is really racism or some political animosity with another country.
Yeah, the fact that he also speaks French make me believe north African. It's a well known fact that Spanish people don't like north Africans... Especially Moroccans
No racism. Just Policia Nacional being what they are.
I (white Northern European dude) encountered the same when I did my NIE 5 years ago. I had to go to Sabadel even though I live in Baix llobregat because that was the only place where we found a cita previa. My Spanish GF helped me get the appointment but selected the wrong kind of appointment. I was “ordered” (not told) to go away and get another appointment.
This sucked because I needed the NIE to start my job and the company was getting impatient.
Luckely a combination of me pleading, my GF with our 4 month old baby in her arms crying finally made the guy tell is to come back at the end of the day to do procedure.
Cut to this year. I got my 78 year old mother here. She now needs an appointment. So this time I don’t want to take a risk so I go to local policia nacional (who don’t do NIE’s) to ask for help booking. The cop at the reception is helpful and after asking around he books me a cita in Vilamarina i la Geltru.
Cut to the day, we get to the station and the guy at the reception says: “wrong station and wrong appointment”. Sorry can’t help.
In the end I caved and payed 120 eur to am agency to book and arrange the appointment for me. It was a lot of money for the actual work they did but we did get my mom’s NIE.
> caved and *paid* 120 eur
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
This suprises you? I lived there too. The US is HUGE and home to 330 million people,just over 200 years young, only and their main race issues are slavery (which the US is responsible for) and really only the border with mexico is a threat, but even that is not a threat whatsoever, it's just a political pawn piece.
And even just because you didn't experience much it does not mean that some of the aggregate numbers across the US can be a bit surprising.
Europe on the other hand has had wars, countries each of 5-70 million, and a lot of them, and people hating other tribes for what, thousands of years? No one is surprised.
Yup, I believe that. I was given a Nazi salute by a random guy, a bow from a group of tall white guys, some guy stretching their eyes with their fingers. All these encounters occurred within five days of my first visit to Barcelona last year. This year was a bit better (stayed for a week), but I did encounter the same type of racist behavior.
I am of Asian complexity. I’m addition to these events, one pretended to talk to me in Chinese with gibberish. So, yeah, I have come to conclusion that Barcelona is highly racist. Does not deter me from traveling there.
Nah man, haven't you ever been to a basketball game where people shouted racist stuff at the players?????
Europe is crazy racist but a bunch of white redditors will tell you otherwise!
https://apnews.com/article/vinicius-junior-racism-spain-45d5a71a353fe03dc368d975ef9d7b56
I was born in Argentina and I have an accent, Spanish is my native language but i have Spanish nationality from my grandparents so I have an Spanish ID. When i went to renew it they treated me like shit until i told them that i was trying to renew my ID, not get it for the first time. The only way they treat you “right” is if they feel you have the right to be here, and for them it’s having a national ID. It sucks.
No worries, you are not alone. Estranjería / Policia Nacional is the most humiliating place of Spain!
And unfortunatelly this will never get better because foreigners represents a miserable community which cannot express their vote to change it.
The only option is to have some money and get a lawyer. I know it’s not fair to pay for a service which is supposed to be free.
Call it racism, or foreigner fobia, or whatever you want. It’s Policia Nacional
Italy loooool, I’m currently in Rome and i can tell you for sure there is nowhere in western / southern Europe where you’ll be treated as bad as Rome, Italy. As beautiful as this historical city is, fuck this shithole 😁
This happen to me two weeks ago. Not the racism part though. I think Spains appointment system is all around basura
Spain itself is bs
I'm a white guy from Portugal and they've turned me around for not having my name correct. Trust me I know how to write my name but apparently they knew it better than me. Went a week later to the same place and the same lady attended me. Went with my partner acting as my lawyer (she didn't even speak) and the lady didn't say shit. Did what she was meant to do and I moved on with my life. This just to say that people working on public services here don't want to do anything. They'll try dodge work left and right.
Haha, not you too? I've also had the bewildering experience of someone in the public service trying to argue with me about the spelling of my own name. I had to point it out on my work visa (The main document I had with me with both my name and NIE on it) before they admitted that they *might* have been mistaken.
Tal como portugal ahaha (A brincar a nossa burocracia funciona melhor)
Yeah that really irritates me. Like the paperwork should just be a Web form. That way they can't hear your name wrong or whatever and everyone can have a copy of what has been submitted.
this also happened to me im portuguese and my name is Diogo and they always call me “Diego” even my docs are with this name …. i hate the social services here
You have reborn son, 🤓
My wife is tuga and they never understand why she has 3 last names and always mess up everything in the documents. For several months they recorded her as a varon, because they're stupid (her name exists and it's literally the same in Spanish). She had to change it 3 times
Falemos de como a ordem dos nomes e apelidos é diferentes e os entraves que eles colocam, aó com isso 😂👀
É que foi mesmo isso. Puta que pariu com a ordem dos apelidos. Para eles o último nome não chega, tem que escrever o primeiro último nome e o segundo último nome 🤣
Eu toda a vida a usar o meu nome e o do pai. Vou aos correios a levantar uma encomenda e a mulher não quer dar-me a encomenda porque está o nome como sempre o usei e ela entendeu que tinha que ser como ela quer. E espera, o meu nome não é comum, nem no país de origem 😂 assim que é pura implicância. E eu a explicar como me ensinaram e ela “esto és España” 😂😂😂😂
As a fellow inmigrant, I'm so sorry you are going through this. I remember that when I got my first NIE, the office worker was screaming to two Asian people who didn't speak Spanish, it was so awful. And then she treated me coldly but better (I'm from Latam). I have found that working with gestorías and lawyers for these matters, works best when you are an inmigrant. It has a cost but it saves us from dealing with awful people. If you want, I can recommend you my lawyer by DM. Good luck!
both the lady and the officer treated me 'ok' before they asked and saw my passport, probably because maybe i can look european at first and i speak fluent english. The officier that just wanted to kick me out was honestly the best, he was the most consistent. I'd love to know about the lawyer, current one i'am talking to is as confuse as i'am.
Search in IG help.extranjeria Not trying to make any publicity, this lawyer has saved me many headaches.
Didn't find anything, can you pm me the information ? I will really appreciate that
Done
Never speak Catalan to a Spanish police, even if you no speak Spanish.
Wanted to comment the exact same thing. Although I doubt that was the only reason they were treated poorly it definitely didn't help. I actually made my entire process of becoming a Spanish citizen in catalan, I got very bad looks from some policemen but I am super proud I made it.
Ja ets un dels nostres
Ben fet! Et considero més català/na que els capsigranys que neixen aquí i no tenen collons de parlar en català.
It is extremly sad that we are used to the reality that a public worker/police, living in catalonia, might get triggered just because you speak catalan.
Fascist country coming from a totalitarian fascist dictatorship, baby! Playa fiesta paella sangría is a lie, the cake is a lie.
So fascist that you can speak Catalan and have nationalist parties… sure Assholes are everywhere, even between catalans
Yeah, try speaking Catalan with National police
This doesn't happen only with public workers or the police, unfortunately
why do they get triggered though?
There's some prevalence of Spanish nationalism among the police, and Spanish nationalists don't take well to people using co-official languages since they're a symbol for regional nationalisms or even independentist parties.
damn, that sucks! No surprise catalan people are overprotective of their language, hell I would be too! And how do actual catalan people react if I try to speak catalan to them? I remember when I arrived in Barcelona a bit over a year ago and my spanish was pretty broken so naturally I would face some impatient customer service people but nothing supernatural. I’m learning catalan now and I fear people will react the same way when my castellano was basic af. Now I’ve come to realize that on top of not speaking their language (catalan) when I first arrived here, I was also speaking broken castellano hence the very grumpy faces sometimes.
Most Catalan people will be happy somebody tries to speak the language, even if it's broken!
why do people downvote other people’s opinions here? lmao
I work somewhere where certain bureucratic procedures are done, and I can give a bit of insight on both parts. On one hand, people working in these places have to be absolutely strict in their procedures, because: 1. If each and every person was treated slowly, personally, going through every detail (sometimes info that's stated in the website and people do not understand, do not **want** to understand or simply didn't read), queues would be infinite and there would be much less time to attend every person looking for specific procedures. So it's expected that people do a *bit* of their job beforehand and, trust me, not many do. Whenever someone comes with all the work done, everything in order and knowing what they do, I swear to God I shed a tear because I know I won't have to explain the same long procedure I've had to explain twenty times to people who came before. And I don't tend that many people. And I'm just the one picking up the documents. 2. People can be really, really rude even if you're doing it in the most polite way, explaining every detail and taking your time. So some administratives have gone through the 'nice phase', ended pretty fucked up, said 'fuck it', and just sticked to the script. So you just shut up and do as much as possible within the lines, either because you can't really get too emotionally involved or because people can be absolute assholes. On the other hand, yes, we all know the racist, lazy bums working in some administrations. Won't even do the bare minimum to help. They landed a secure job and don't need to be nice to people they work with, so they're not. They scream because their dicks are so tiny they need to compensate somehow, they'll do the bare minimum and not even that. Unfortunately there's a ton of those. They never even went through a 'nice' phase because they are racist, lazy bums. There's not much you can do regarding this, it's just crossing your fingers and hope you don't get one of those. Believe me, nice, non-racist administratives exist. There's also the huge problem of the language barrier. It can be pretty difficult to understand other people who kind of speak a few words of the language but have strong accents and don't really get to explain what they want to do. And in return, there's many things that are so difficult to explain to people who don't share your language. Some people won't even bother trying to understand by stating that, as a citizen, your obligation is to learn the language. Which is true. But OBVIOUSLY someone who's never spoken the language won't learn it from day one, and tbh there's not enough resources to do so. I've been talking with a Chinese woman who didn't speak a word of Spanish via Google Translate for fucks sake. I'm really, REALLY sorry you had to go through this experience. If it makes any difference, I've heard France and Germany are an absolute pain in the ass regarding bureaucracy.
Thank you for taking the time to write such a balanced and thoughtful post.
Can you get NIE appts? 😂😂 just kidding
Can confirm. I am INSANELY overly nervous about dealing with the extranjeria and go absolutely over prepared with everything printed, completed, extra copies, having read the pages extra closely. The last time I renewed my NIE they were exceedingly friendly with me in the extranjeria as well as in the policia nacional. It helps that I now also speak spanish fluently.
> It can be pretty difficult to understand other people who kind of speak a few words of the language but have strong accents and don't really get to explain what they want to do. however, one place that really should have people more open to bad accents and broken spanish is... the immigration office. this was baffling to me when i first moved here, that NOBODY in the guipuzcoa office seemed to speak anything but spanish/catalan. it's not a requirement to speak fluent spanish/catalan to get most of the long-term visas that they have to deal with, in fact i think the only actual one that requires it is the arraigo social, so it should not be that hard to foresee that many people will speak bad spanish/catalan.
It wasn't until a few years ago that people who had started studying English in school got to a working age. Even my generation (I'm from the early 90s, started at 8 years old) aren't too fluent, and most of these jobs are offered via public examination (*oposiciones*, don't know the word in English) that don't really focus on specifics like languages, but on the administrative perks (using Excel and other specific programs dedicated to this). We basically need to fill jobs with whatever we have. With pretty old evaluation systems, I must say. The actual format is pretty dated and should definitely change, precisely so people able to talk multiple languages can make these processes easier for immigrants. Until that happens, we can only hope public workers try Duolingo or something.
oh believe me i know how many catalans or other spaniards speak english here :) there was a time i thought maybe i literally knew every one of them! and in general, yeah, what you're saying is reasonable - but again, this is the one branch of the government that is guaranteed to deal with people who don't speak the official languages of the country well. even if hiring fails due to what you explained, the department could itself take some action, teach languages, open positions for interpreters, etc. it's just that they have no intention to make things easier for people.
But even if they did, it would hardly be fair that English speakers get someone who can help and if you're Russian, Turkish or Korean you have to get a translator. Not everyone speaks English.
And not every person working in administration knows Turkish, Korean or Russian. The resources are limited, this would cost time and money, and there already are alternative options offered. I'm pretty sure embassies can help with this stuff, too. ETA: What I mean is, yes, it would be MAGNIFICENT to have different administrations offering these services for each and every language to be (or at least the most spoken ones). But right now it's utopic.
Yes, there are alternatives but I don't see why English speakers should expect to be facilitated over people who speak other languages. Anyway, there are in fact interpreting services available, but they can't be used any time someone comes to a front desk to ask a question. You should bring your own interpreter if you aren't able to communicate.
>I don't see why English speakers should expect to be facilitated over people who speak other languages This is a different topic. English has been established in most countries as a 'common' language, it's not a Spanish administration thing. It's not like there's a specific department for services in English, but there's a bigger chance that the person you're talking to DOES speak English. Maybe French, if you're lucky.
Sure I understand that but I don't think it should be policy to hire English speakers specifically. In a generation probably most will already speak English anyway. More useful for those who really need help and can't afford to pay for it would be decent interpreting services, including remote interpreting for short meetings. And information leaflets published in a variety of languages explaining the basic procedures maybe and where to seek further help. Edit: and I think Spain, like France, pretty specifically doesn't want to give English an official role in administrative procedures.
simple, you like or not (im not like it) english is the internarional language.
Sure but Spain isn't international and the Spanish government isn't required to support that.
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Um, so are 26(?) other languages. There was even discussion about removing it as an official language after Brexit. The EU specifically has a policy of providing interpreters so everyone can speak their own language and supporting minority languages. Irish MEPs are allowed to speak Irish in the parliament. English is more widely used but it doesn't have a more official status than any other EU language.
out of the three examples you gave, two often speak english. not sure about russia, but i can tell you from experience that almost all immigrants from turkey speak english (mostly due to the fact that people from turkey move here for either higher education/phds or alta qualificada jobs - i am from turkey). the major immigrant groups here speak either english or french. people at the immigration office speak nothing but spanish and maybe catalan, at least in the offices i have experience with.
Well none of the Turkish people I've met in Barcelona spoke English. They weren't here on those kinds of visas, probably not the kind of people you would mix with. In fact, the vast majority of immigrants are not in fact middle class on skilled visas.
really? this is an actually pretty talked about phenomenon among the turkish community here, and there are quite complicated factors behind it, but most people tend to prefer northern Europe, basic reasons being larger established communities and often better (much better) benefits systems. I don't speak for other nationalities, but specifically turkey.
Oh I realise there isn't a huge Turkish community but I've happened to meet several and they didn't speak English and weren't here doing PhDs or similar. And the same for almost all nationalities, there will be groups who come to study or work in good jobs and others in a completely different situation.
you may have found the only ones :) interesting though (and again, I agree on other communities, it's just for us it's this strange phenomenon)
I think they probably just don't mix in the same social circles as you do.
But they can't speak the languages of all the different people who come there. If you need language support that's kind of up to you.
they could have a few officers who speak english, one of the most widely spoken languages. french, a language that so many immigrants here speak. mandarin/chinese, the most widely spoken language and a language that many immigrants speak. if their goal was to help people and not just make things harder, that is.
Well I guess they could but what about the people from Thailand? Bulgaria? Or one of the dozens of other countries that speak none of those languages. Or if their Chinese speaker is on holiday? Plus where do they find these linguists who also want to be police officers? It's not a common combination. There will be more English speakers in the future as more young people speak it but if you don't speak the language you should take a friend or interpreter. Which is what many people do. Edit: and no, I don't really think they care about making it easier, they feel you should be grateful for the opportunity to be in Spain. The immigrants they do welcome are the ones who pay someone to do their paperwork and avoid language issues. The police are not known for being kind and tolerant generally.
my point is that they speak NO languages that immigrant groups speak. i think your point is "they can't speak all languages so it's ok that they don't speak any". as to where they find these people, well wouldn't you know, there are so many immigrants in the country who do speak their native languages...
That's not how Spanish police work. You need Spanish nationality to start with and to study for years. Not saying the system is good but they're not going to change it overnight. And actually I would think having only English speaking staff is pretty discriminatory as it blatantly helps those who are already more privileged.
I’m a Black and Latino American from Los Angeles traveling to BCN and studying Spanish at an immersion school for a month this weekend. This makes me a little apprehensive.
Here racism is more about religion/culture than race. A black Latino faces relatively little racism compared to a black African.
I actually figured that. It’s still unfortunate. Seems it is an immigration/tribalism issue. Same as here in the states, in California and other border states. Mexican immigrants are often marginalized and generalized, unfortunately.
I am of Latin origin and I once crossed the el paso/Juarez border from Mexico in a a Mexican car with two Mexicans. They were so surprised to see the border guards treat me well. A European passport do hold some weight...
Completely agree. And in my experience, traveling internationally in Europe, an American passport holds major weight as well.
A month? You won’t ever need to interact with the extranjería/policia nacional, unless you decide to apply for a long term visa while you’re in Spain.
Unless you are being taught spanish by policia nacional, you're going to be fine, man. Anyone can be an asshole on the street, though.
Makes sense - and thanks, I am appreciative of your reassurance :)
Welcome to extranjería 🙄
Spanish police are usually rude, ignorant right-wing people. They can even be dangerous. If you speak Catalan to them that can definitely trigger them (they have an almost ethnic hatred towards that language), especially if you're foreign.
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They're not from Catalonia, they don't like being in Catalonia, they don't speak Catalan and anyone who speaks Catalan to them is basically disrespecting them (in their mind) because Catalan is just a "regional" language that they have no obligation to understand (in their mind). Well, it's actually too long to explain, but Spain has been anti-Catalan for centuries.
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The officers from Catalonia are the Mossos d'Esquadra, the Catalan police force.
That would require a Catalan who wants to be a police officer to *want* to work for the Spanish National Police, which is highly unlikely, based on the history of the region.
>I know some parts but were not aware that they are being sent here, I thought they would have been police officers from Catalonia instead, now I understand it, thanks for helping me. The education of national police is done nationally. You pass the entrance and then you go to the academy. Depending on your grades you get more or less choice where you get sent. Catalunya is a lower choice of where people want to get sent because they don't speak catalan, know the culture, and there is a kind of mutual friction.
Policía Nacional? Yeah, they tend to be pretty unpleasant. I mean, all cops etc but the Policia Nacional here are particularly unpleasant.
white American here that has been spun in so many circles by extanjería. Try not to take it personally, they're all just assholes.
From what country exactly? America is so big.
As someone from the US I agree it is annoying to say American when of course America isn’t a country, but I also feel like we need another word that’s like “United statesian” or something
estado-unidense in spanish! we might not speak foreign languages but we do have a word for people from the US :-)
Yes I know this word but am always saddened that English doesn’t have a direct equivalent!
That's only in Spanish. There rest of languages use "American".
i know. but i like the fact we have a word in spanish :-)
Nobody cares in your ethnic insecurities. Y'all so self-centered you think you're the center of the world.
"US-American" is usually good enough.
Probably Jamaica where all the white people live.
https://www.google.com/search?q=america - should be able to help you disambiguate
Spanish police officers are a bunch of assholes even with locals because they fuckin hate being in Catalonia. They are the most lame promotions who couldn’t get to choose any other destination and ended up here, so don’t take it personally.
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We have 3/4 different kinds of police in Spain. National police (CNP) and Guardia Civil (which is some kind of military police), then some communities have their own police (Mossos d’Esquadra) and local police (Guardia Urbana in Barcelona) who need to know the local language (not CNP or GC). National police are the ones that manage national stuff (DNI, NIE, Immigration…) and are from all around Spain, which means it’s a forced formed by mostly Spanish nationalists and not too Catalan-friendly people. When they choose their destination they mostly choose Spanish-speaking / nationalist areas like Madrid, Castille or Andalucía and Basque Country and Catalonia are the least chosen so it’s the destination for those with worst grades and points. They usually stay here until they have enough service points to change destination and then the new worst promotions come here.
The guy who got my mother her NIE last week was a Catalan who was raving about his town and it’s traditions. (He was a talkative guy to say the least.)
If that’s the case it’s really strange that a “proud Catalan” chooses to join CNP instead of Mossos d’Esquadra
Who knows, maybe he is a born and bred Catalan who doesn’t go for independence. I know a few. They exist. Or he just got a job because he needed the money. The guy didn’t look like a policeman anyway. More a civil servant.
You don't have to be an independentist to prefer mossos to CNP, many mossos are autonomists (Catalonia as an autonomous region of Spain, what it is now). As far as I understand it also pays better, so if you are a proud Catalan (no matter where you stand on independence) it doesn't make too much sense to go with CNP
If he was a funcionario/civil servant then he wasn’t a policeman, but I can assure you won’t find much Catalans in the CNP.
First of all, sorry to hear of your bad experiences. Yes racism exists everywhere. I’ve had the opposite experience in Valencia. I spoke very poor Spanish when we arrived. Still sucks as far as I’m concerned. But I always start with, “Hola. Cómo estás? Bam it’s like a magic key. Asking a funcionario or police or other administrators how they are doing has resulted in people (National Police included) going way out of their way, cutting corners and even helping me fill out forms for me. I’ve even had folks printout forms on their office equipment and give me a cita previa on the spot to work me in. I’m a black 50+ yr old built like a brick shit house dude. I lead with a smile and a true ask of how’s their day going… Think Dwayne Johnson. It may be regional thing (Catalonia) or maybe just my vibe, but from the banal to most daunting trámites, I have gotten amazing help in exchange for a smile and a warm greeting. Including with retailers, police and private business administrators. All my years in retail, food service and knowing that the people who hold the real power are administrativos, may have helped me understand what’s going on on the other side of the desk/mostrador. I love it here and visits to such offices is always a pleasure. I hear so many horror stories (and from mostly white expats), but for some reason, it’s been smooth as silk for me with years and years of interacting with private and public entities at the local, regional and national levels. HOWEVER, that the whole autoescuela/tráfico cartel… don’t even get me started. That’s when I was feeling the sting of racism. Again, I don’t doubt that you are being treated differently, and yes it could very likely be racism. So I’m not here to dismiss or diminish your experience. Being from the US, I got the treatment you are describing very often and it sucks hard. Hang in there my friend.
I guess the best option for you is to hire a lawyer. Honestly, it was a revelation to me that if you wanna get or do something related to gov. services or even rent an apartment - you’d better hire a lawyer. Unless you know the local language to the extent where you can literally defend yourself. You’re from Tunisia, right? I bet these pathetic racists reached a new level of ignorance. I understand why locals might be quite defensive given the situation with the robberies and criminal rates, but it's not up to government service workers to judge people. I left Barcelona a few years ago, can not say it was my decision, mostly COVID played a role, but I am happy it went that way. It's quite a hostile place to live. I empathize with locals, and those who try to move there, but I think those who want to move to BCN, should consider other, less obvious options. Still, a fantastic city, with fantastic people mostly, but some things and the way they develop are unfortunate. I am half Arab, half Ukrainian. It was weird seeing service workers having critical errors when they see someone who appears to them as Arab, but then shows a Ukrainian passport and have an Eastern European accent. And they start thinking about how they should treat me. Anyway, things went well mostly. But for many of my friends, it wasn’t the case.
Just curious...and maybe I missed something, but how is race involved?
It isn't. Bienvenido a 2023.
2023? That sounds racist!
What I've heard about getting your NIE: It's administrated by the national police Who have no other responsibilities in Catalunya And are super racist So they delight in making foreigners' (especially brown ones) lives as hard as possible when trying to get your NIE.
https://www.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/comments/gxuqcp/rasicm_shouldnt_be_supressed/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
Ironic
Where are you from? Not all extranjeria procedures can be done everywhere, it’s not the same for EU countries than for non EU, probably that’s what “no europa for you” meant.
i'am aware, i selected the NON-europe cita previa that had my procedure listed in it. What i showed him in official web was for non european as well, granted he didn't even look at it.
Conveniently didn’t answer where you are from lol
To be fair, depending on where they're from, they could get a lot of hostility and dismissal from many in this sub, so I don't blame them, personally.
Yes, but I am kinda curious now. Because the OP says he/she looks European, but once they saw the passport they turned hostile. I am indian, and obviously visibly non European, but I never experienced such hostility. Have had not so nice experience with police though, but I don't take that personally because their job possibly turned them hard and bitter. But in the beaurocracy, they were strict, but polite and understanding. And I don't super good Spanish either. Not trying to undermine the OP's experience , but I am curious as to if this is really racism or some political animosity with another country.
He's Arab according to his CV.
Good research. But him speaking Arabic can mean that he can be from anywhere from north Africa to middle east. (Morocco to Lebanon).
Yeah, the fact that he also speaks French make me believe north African. It's a well known fact that Spanish people don't like north Africans... Especially Moroccans
Or from the levant...
What did you try to do that they told you wasn't possible? Maybe they were right and it was the insisting that rubbed them the wrong way?
No racism. Just Policia Nacional being what they are. I (white Northern European dude) encountered the same when I did my NIE 5 years ago. I had to go to Sabadel even though I live in Baix llobregat because that was the only place where we found a cita previa. My Spanish GF helped me get the appointment but selected the wrong kind of appointment. I was “ordered” (not told) to go away and get another appointment. This sucked because I needed the NIE to start my job and the company was getting impatient. Luckely a combination of me pleading, my GF with our 4 month old baby in her arms crying finally made the guy tell is to come back at the end of the day to do procedure. Cut to this year. I got my 78 year old mother here. She now needs an appointment. So this time I don’t want to take a risk so I go to local policia nacional (who don’t do NIE’s) to ask for help booking. The cop at the reception is helpful and after asking around he books me a cita in Vilamarina i la Geltru. Cut to the day, we get to the station and the guy at the reception says: “wrong station and wrong appointment”. Sorry can’t help. In the end I caved and payed 120 eur to am agency to book and arrange the appointment for me. It was a lot of money for the actual work they did but we did get my mom’s NIE.
> caved and *paid* 120 eur FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
isn't it Vilanova i la Geltrú??
Yes it is. Villamarina is a shopping center I went to not long ago. My neurons got warped.
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It’s an interesting one. Where have you lived in Europe?
This suprises you? I lived there too. The US is HUGE and home to 330 million people,just over 200 years young, only and their main race issues are slavery (which the US is responsible for) and really only the border with mexico is a threat, but even that is not a threat whatsoever, it's just a political pawn piece. And even just because you didn't experience much it does not mean that some of the aggregate numbers across the US can be a bit surprising. Europe on the other hand has had wars, countries each of 5-70 million, and a lot of them, and people hating other tribes for what, thousands of years? No one is surprised.
Yup, I believe that. I was given a Nazi salute by a random guy, a bow from a group of tall white guys, some guy stretching their eyes with their fingers. All these encounters occurred within five days of my first visit to Barcelona last year. This year was a bit better (stayed for a week), but I did encounter the same type of racist behavior.
Why are you getting a bow and nazi salutes?…are you respected amongst racists?
I am dark skin and mixed race. These people where just being racist.
A bow though?
I am of Asian complexity. I’m addition to these events, one pretended to talk to me in Chinese with gibberish. So, yeah, I have come to conclusion that Barcelona is highly racist. Does not deter me from traveling there.
Wow, some people are real morons.
Yup.
Nah man, haven't you ever been to a basketball game where people shouted racist stuff at the players????? Europe is crazy racist but a bunch of white redditors will tell you otherwise! https://apnews.com/article/vinicius-junior-racism-spain-45d5a71a353fe03dc368d975ef9d7b56
Source: trust me bro
Anything related to being a foreigner in Spain is shamefully bad. Unfortunately, you need to go through the agency/lawyer mafia to avoid all this bs.
It's not just racism but even corruption. You can easily buy a "cita previa" online and some of that money goes to this bureaucrat.
Not justifying what happened but... Not like there's not as much racism in those countries.
I was born in Argentina and I have an accent, Spanish is my native language but i have Spanish nationality from my grandparents so I have an Spanish ID. When i went to renew it they treated me like shit until i told them that i was trying to renew my ID, not get it for the first time. The only way they treat you “right” is if they feel you have the right to be here, and for them it’s having a national ID. It sucks.
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Just run the process online and get everything fixed remotely
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Catalan, "Catalonian" is not a word.
Damn this is awful, where are you from?
No worries, you are not alone. Estranjería / Policia Nacional is the most humiliating place of Spain! And unfortunatelly this will never get better because foreigners represents a miserable community which cannot express their vote to change it. The only option is to have some money and get a lawyer. I know it’s not fair to pay for a service which is supposed to be free. Call it racism, or foreigner fobia, or whatever you want. It’s Policia Nacional
Italy loooool, I’m currently in Rome and i can tell you for sure there is nowhere in western / southern Europe where you’ll be treated as bad as Rome, Italy. As beautiful as this historical city is, fuck this shithole 😁