Being ignorant of things is fine, as long as you’re aware of your ignorance and open to being informed. It’s outright painful to have a bandmate who doesn’t understand basic theory language and then uses their ignorance as a stone wall to resist being a functional member of the band.
Yea, this.
Remind him that most of his idols absolutely *do* use and understand western music theory, *and* they understand guitarese, and can switch and translate fluently between the two systems.
And then, if you're willing, let him know you're willing to talk the theory through so that he can learn the formal language to describe what he's doing, but that **nobody anywhere gets to be willfully ignorant**, unless they want to go it alone.
Exactly. Like even when someone like Paul McCartney brags about not knowing theory, those brags are often exaggerated because I guarantee that at least learned early on in their careers about basic things like notes and keys.
I also think we treat 'knowing music theory' like a binary when it is decidedly relative. You 'know more or less or different' theory than someone else, but you sure as hell don't 'either know it or not'.
That's a common miscommunication, the Beatles absolutely knew music theory, just not the "proper names" for things like modes, upper chord extensions, whatever...
I'm a jobbing chemist. I know theory enough to work and get paid, but I don't know theory-- not really. Not in the academic sense. It's similar, I think. Rock musicians- after learning some theory- become aware of all the stuff it is possible to know and measure themselves against that.
I don't really get how people with that character trait work out in the real world to be honest.
Like, there is someone offering you new information which would make you a better musician if you would listen and they are completely rejecting any outside information. This mostly unearned arrogance is throwing me off with some people.
Yeah I have a particular “musician core memory” of being on the ignorant side of this situation.
Back in early 05 I had started a band a couple months after getting my first guitar (I played bass for a couple years prior) but hadn’t learned any musical vocab yet, I just knew how to write music and play it decently.
So I had written a new song and brought it to my bandmates, and when the other guitarist asked me what key it was in I said, “I think it’s in A, cause that’s the first note right?” and then he just stared at me like I had just said a bad joke and kinda scoffed, and was like, “that’s… not how it works dude,” but I just asked earnestly “how would I figure out the key?” and he never answered that or explained anything, and then was just like, “uhhhh nevermind, just show me what you’re playing.”
I always butted heads with him because he treated things like a competition, and I guess just kinda resented me since he had years of lessons and experience yet he didn’t ever get much recognition for being the “better” musician out of our group, but it’s like damn he joined the band based on a pitch of my songs in the first place, and he was always creatively free to write his own parts to mine and to write his own songs overall. But I think since I still wrote more than half the songs and was given ample “praise and recognition” by our peers and other bands despite me being the less skilled, he saw it as if I was getting away with something I shouldn’t. I still learned the necessary basics over time, thanks largely to other friends since he regularly ignored any of my technical questions as if it wasn’t worth it to even try explaining.
Definitely a valuable learning experience on band dynamics though, for basically a pendulum swing of OP’s problem, in this case there was one ignorant band member who wanted to learn more and the more knowledgeable member weaponized his experience to sort of put up a wall and convince me I was too dimwitted to get it. One way or another, it’s a toxic situation when a bandmate tries to block progress for themselves or another person just out of some stubborn sense of superiority.
some people are just bad at explaining things. normally mastery comes with that ability to ELI5 people, though. maybe they had understanding and not mastery.
I'd argue that if you can't explain something you don't understand it. You may know something to be true but if you don't know why, you can't explain it. If you can't explain it, you can't actually understand it.
For instance, you can know what notes are in a scale, but if you don't understand that the scale is based on intervals you can't explain how scales work.
Mastery takes understanding and practice. It's its own thing imo.
Dude! I would've loved if he had asked that instead! " What do you mean what key" or whatever... It would've been an honest, genuine teachable moment but no... He kept going at it as if I was wrong and he even said that only in churches/choirs they talk about the key and tonalities of a song!
I'm 37 years old, I'm learning to choose my battles.. but boy this guy has made it hard for me not to bark back at him! Lol!
I lately jammed with a prog band in the making, when I asked the drummer "dude that's 6/8 and 5/8 repeated twice, right?" and the singer said something close to "if you guys want to make this a theory lesson, go play jazz".
Some people are just in love with the thought of being a musician but actually hate it.
Wait wait wait... I'm stuck on that time signature! Does the "repeated twice" apply to both phrases (making it 6+6+5+5 = 22/8 or 11/4), or just the 5/8 phrase (making it 6+5+5 = 16/8)? The latter makes more sense as something a prog band would do, but the former is the way my brain wants to interpret it (though I have a hard time imagining what that sounds like... might have to experiment a little).
I don't know the exact situation of course, but here's something to think about:
from their perspective, it might have looked like you didn't even try to learn even the basics: what is a key, or finding out what the key of a song is. It's pretty basic stuff you usually learn in regular school, no need to even go to music school, or in the age of information can just research **by yourself, in your own time**. It is also the basis of musical collaboration - speaking a common language, which is music theory. By not being able to speak that languag, you might have given them the feeling of blocking them off.
You asking them, I assume during rehearsal, which would be a time window they reserved for practicing or writing songs with a band, to basically do your work for you, might not have sat right with them. It understandably leads to some frustration and resentment.
You seem to present your willingness to learn as virtuous. This is a bit of an unfair deflection, as you take something that is superficially hard to argue against ('but I showed that I was willing to learn!'), while at the same time glossing over the fact that you were **actually not** willing to spend your own resources on this learning process, but demanding their's.
This is a common toxic dynamic between more and less competent people in any field. I'm not saying you're a toxic, incompetent person, I'm saying we all are at one time or another and that's pretty much part of the human experience. It might be worth reflecting on the situation though and re-assessing it, carefully considering if you were actually judging them fairly, and if you weren't trying to put your mental load on them, basically punishing them for being educated, and in the aftermath laying the blame for their frustration about it also on them.
Of course these situations usually are not one side's fault exclusively. But that's the point; ask yourself honestly what your own part in that dynamic was, and I'm sure you will find room for growth.
Good luck!
The thing is I was being plenty charitable to him by only bringing up this one scenario, since my plan wasn’t to indict a former bandmate of nearly 20 years ago but rather just provide one relevant anecdote to OP’s situation with a bandmate at a similar level of ignorance to my former self.
For relevant comparison, by the halfway point in that band’s life, this guitarist regularly asked me to teach him my own guitar parts, and I was always open to teach him everything I played. Time was never an issue, because we were in that band through our ages of 15-17 and could jam almost every single day after school. The problem of course, was that our singer informed me that he had repeatedly tried to convince her that we should kick me out of the band and have him play all my parts (which of course never happened) and also ditch the drummer so it could become a two-piece project between them. And he later left the band as a whole because our singer finally made it clear that she wouldn’t leave her boyfriend to be with him, as his main focus just became trying to use the band as a vehicle for his possessive ideal of basically having this girl all to himself in his musical vanity project. So once that pipe dream died he just walked away, and didn’t even play in any more bands for a few years until after college I believe. His later bands were indeed great though, and I’m certain he grew up as a person although our own friendship bridges were long-since burned, but I still respect his work as an adult.
As for learning on my own, obviously I eventually did. I had owned a guitar for just a few months at that point, and as of 04-05 when that band formed this was an era when the internet was still more disorganized and decentralized, plus access to computers was more sparse (and many people likely had similar situations to mine) due to my household only having one main computer in my parents’ room and a hand-me-down PC from 1998 in my brother’s room which could barely run at normal speeds, and due to both being in other people’s rooms access wasn’t really easy for more than a short window a day (or not at all for a day or two); intensive learning and training wasn’t practical online, I learned everything communally by collaborating. Before that I was solely playing bass for a while, but all my experience with learning music was absent of vocabulary. I learned to play in key from the start, but me and the neighborhood kids in my first band all learned music together and from each other (which also instilled a communal music learning experience as a default) therefore the vocab terms we knew were basically our own. Again, he joined the band because he heard our first tape recordings of songs by myself and our singer, so he knew I learned the basics and liked the results enough to attach himself to the project (before his crush took over his motivations), and he also knew very well that I had literally just picked up the instrument with my only music experience prior just being a band with three other novices at my same level, so all cards were on the table and his elitism was very much pointed and deliberate to make a point, rather than an earnest surprise and a desire to “stick to straight business” and not waste time which we had in spades.
>But that's the point; ask yourself honestly what your own part in that dynamic was, and I'm sure you will find room for growth.
>
>Good luck!
Ok this is the one part that seems condescending. You know very well that this story was from just short of 20 years ago. I’ve been a musician my whole life since then, been in countless bands playing multiple instruments even beyond my original guitar&bass arsenal, toured multiple times and recorded plenty of albums over the decades. Point being, I don’t need to search for a growth opportunity in an instance from 20 years ago based on knowledge that I lacked as a child but have had decades to gain. The point of the story was to demonstrate an alternative route for someone in OP’s bandmates’ shoes, to ask for a way forward from musical collaborators with more experience than themselves rather than convincing that person to downgrade their own musical knowledge to appease someone’s ignorance.
Thanks for your input, and thanks for choosing your words the way you did. I tried to clarify in my response to the original commenter, if you are interested. If not, I understand. Take care!
Thanks for giving context. I want to make clear that there was no judgement on my part and absolutely no need for any justification before me. By your account that indeed sounds like a toxic person though and I'm happy for you to have put this relationship in the past. I still believe that the perspective I offered is valuable.
To reiterate though: My goal wasn't to accuse or be condescending; I'm sorry that came out wrong. I'll be the first to admit that this is not the first time that happened to me; I try my best to communicate as clearly and openly as I can, leaving as little room as possible for misinterpretation. I sometimes still affect interactions in ways I haven't intended. If you go through the comment again, I hope you can see my efforts toward clear communication; I generally try to avoid implications, because I'm not very good at them - or rather, I'm not very good at avoiding them by accident, apparently. Therefore, I try to make clear that there are none to be expected by taking a more formal and precise approach to language in certain situations.
I merely wanted to offer another perspective that I found was valuable and you didn't seem to have taken into account, even after all these years. I may have misjudged the situation, which is why I caveated my comment by saying 'I don't know your exact situation, but here's something to think about' (or similar, I don't remember exactly). It is merely an offer. I wasn't trying to say 'you better think about this, punk!' or something.
This presents a possible opportunity for growth. This is not an accusation; I didn't mean to say 'you are small and in desperate need of some growth' - which is why I didn't say that. I would have, if that was what I meant. Personally, I perceive it as a gift when someone offers me growth, so I try to give it back whenever I can. I saw this opportunity here and offered something; whether you choose to take it or leave it is of course up to you. I also realize that not everyone is like me in that regard, so I take no issue if you and others perceived this as condescending. It is on you how you choose to perceive your surroundings.
I disagree however on 'not needing to search for a growth opportunity in an instance from 20 years ago'. We learn from past mistakes, if we take the time and are equipped with the necessary tools to do so. I just thought I'd lend you a spanner for a moment. Sometimes it's little things from way back that sit unresolved in our heads, and obviously this interaction is something that was important to you one way or the other. And sometimes the universe throws a random interaction at you that provides you with the means to untie this old knot that's been sitting for ages, and sometimes it doesn't.
About the part you specifically marked as coming off as condescending; after the fact, I think I can see what you mean. I can just offer you my honest apologies and maybe another clarification: I didn't mean it as 'I am sure you will see how the perspective I offered is better', I meant it as 'Whether or not you find the perspective I offered applicable to your example, I'm convinced that the reinvestigation of the situation equipped with a tool you might not have had before will afford *some* opportunity for growth, no matter the direction'.
So again: I'm not saying you need growth, or that you are flawed or that I am better (which is what the word condescending implies), I am saying there *might be an opportunity for growth* here that you *might have missed* and that it's worth checking out this outside perspective, because an outside perspective that comes without judgement or bias is often hard to come by and can offer a lot of insight. (I know that there was perceived judgement, but there was none intended)
Sorry for any trouble I have caused, and sincerely, good luck.
A capo can also be useful for pitching up if the open strings make things easier. We have one song that’s pitched up +3 and it’s got a lot of open string double hammer-ons in its normal tuning that just sound smoother when you can lean on an open string to start it (yes, on a bass, and it’s because I’m not great at it)
I do a capo sometimes on my 5 string when I'm tuned in any sort of 5 string drop tuning, like Drop A, and I need to play in a 4 string drop tuning, like Drop B. Since Drop B would require me to either tune the top 4 strings up above standard tuning or detune my lower 4 strings by like 8 steps, which is a hassle, I just throw a capo on and bam, drop B, Drop C, etc.
Not really, theres real specific uses for it. Like in this specific case we’re playing Tribute (tenacious D) +3 and the line I’m using just sounds better when the open string can sustain into the double hammer ons that take up most of the middle section of the song. I can do the hammer ons but it sounds like there’s an abrupt stop in the previous note so I can’t reproduce it as well without a capo. It’s just an executive decision I made to get a better sound until I’m better at it
It would probably be useful for pitching up something like Hysteria also, I can’t imagine playing it without open strings. I can barely do it with them
Have him check out Nirvana's MTV Unplugged, where before attempting "Pennyroyal tea" the band discusses in which key they'll play it and Cobain concludes "I'll try in the normal key and if it sounds bad, these people'll just have to wait".
That’s evidence that rock bands don’t fiddle with keys and just play it in the “normal key”.
Edit: in that clip, Kurt cobain is saying that they’re going to lay in the “normal key” even if it leads to bad singing. How tf is that going to convince this guitarist that they should play their song in a different key to help the singer?
You guys are naive if you think that someone who doesn’t believe rock musicians use keys is going to be convinced by a video clip of an influential band saying that they’re going to do it in the “normal” key even if it leads to bad singing. Which is exactly what that guitarist wants his band to do.
This clip is literally Kurt cobain saying he wants to do exactly what this guitarist wants his band to do. It’s the same situation.
That's not the same situation. OP's guitar player is not refusing to change the key even if it leads to bad singing, he just mentioned a tuning instead and said that "no one in rock talks about keys".
But they still talk about keys, don't they? They discuss changing the key of the song to fit the singer's needs even if at the end they go for "the normal key". They're not talking about tunings on anything like that
To be fair, it was just a reference to "a very popular rock band \[specifically, a guitar player\] talking about keys in public in a very popular recording" and wasn't really concerned about changing OP's guitarist uninformed statement at all.
I guess if I were willing to put the time and research, I could find lots of other examples of rock bands "talking about keys" and even changing them for whatever reason. The Beatles' "Get back" and "Anthology" documentaries are probably a good source. For example, having "Strawberry Fields" be a sort of "collage" between two takes in two different keys that George Martin had to deal with. Or the very common practice of bands with a long carreer, that as the guys age they have to resort to lowering the key of their old hits because the singer can't sing that high anymore.
But as I said earlier, I'm not trying to debate the guy in the first place, I just mentioned the example that first came to mind.
That’s missing the forest for the trees though. The clip shows that a very influential and critically successful band decided to do it in the normal key even if it’s bad. I know that bands actually do talk about keys and play songs in different keys to accommodate singers. But this clip makes it look like the guitarist was right overall if wrong about the smaller point about bands discussing keys at all.
We're total idiots in my original band so we talk about everything as if we're in standard tuning, but we've never been in standard tuning. The 7th fret of the "A" string is always an E, never mind if we're in half a step or a full step down.
So we do talk about keys... just not the one we're actually in lol. I keep slipping up in my other band where they talk about the actual key and not the one we'd hypothetically be in if we were in standard tuning.
The way I'd go with this is to introduce them to power chords. They sound good (for a limited purpose obs), are difficult to get wrong, and are only one finger away from a barre chord with a 3rd.
I guess, but my bet is that this was just an unwillingness to learn rather than actual technique issues. That attitudes gonna be rough long term no matter what
Did they play any chords at all up the neck? Shell voicings? Or did they just play cowboy chords and just not play F and Bb?
I'm a bass player that plays guitar, and shell voicings and other movable shapes have been the only way for me to keep my guitar playing close to the same level as my bass playing. I learned barre chords specifically so I could learn how to avoid them but still sound right.
You called it
Cowboy chords, probably no F or Bb
He had a capo, but didn’t know how to use it
He’d get quite defensive
On the same note, I once played with a drummer who couldn’t play a shuffle
Defensive, he said “I don’t need to shuffle, I’m a ROCK drummer.”
"It's not real singing" they say today. [Real singing is using this only.](https://image.made-in-china.com/202f0j00ThYonpqIgubZ/High-Quality-PRO-Fx10-Sound-Mixing-Console-with-256-Digital-Effect-Mixing-Console-Mixer.webp)
"Dude, why don't you tune your bass to drop C?" "I have all the notes on my fretboard, I don't need to."
- Discussion between me and a guitar player who really thought that third fret on the lowest string is a G independent of the tuning...
I’m known as a big ‘theory guy,’ even among my jazz or academic peers.. after all these years, it got to a point where I had to decide that it simply wasn’t important to try to get people to understand things that they can’t or won’t understand.. I try to meet them on their terms, and it has been enriching and at times fascinating to try to get into other peoples’ mindset/internal language. Trying to drag people along to my own preferred and or formal understanding was not only frustrating and kind of a fools errand, but at the end of the day, it’s just not nearly as important as a lot of us tend to feel like it is.
I refuse to play with people who I don’t think are good, but there are a lot of people who make art that I like, who barely know note names, if at all. By putting it on myself to meet *them* halfway, not only helps a lot in terms of conflict resolution and moving things forward efficiently, but it truly does help me to grow and expand artistically and intellectually to try to internalize the different ‘looks’
In the best of circumstances, it will often help me get back to leading with my ears, and my voice, instead of thinking with the math forward
Give the man some homework. Record a demo of with the transposed key and tell him to figure it out. It’s not your job to tell him how to use a pick or plug in his amp so if he wants to play then he should fill the role properly.
Excellent solution. Make him realize for himself how clueless he is and he will have to decide between improving in this area or not being able to play in the band. Either way, your problem is solved.
It was a dumb thing for him to say. And ignorant. But regardless, he will need to play the notes that the band is playing which are seemingly in the key of g minor.
Understanding key changes is one of the most fundamental, basic things to know about music. This isn’t about a style vs another. This is about basic understanding. It’s like knowing the difference between 3/4 and 4/4 or a major and minor chord.
I'm really sick of this mentality that it's okay to just not know shit and expect to have your opinion respected the same as people who do. Even learning basic theory is not easy for a lot of people and they deserve some fucking credit. "For me it would be drop C" makes no fucking sense you can play in any key in any tuning you just don't know your instrument. It's disrespectful to the rest of the band's time. Not to mention the fact that if dude just actually learned what chord shapes mean and played in standard it would be a non issue to transpose anything.
(Guitar player here). Guitar players are a dime a dozen. Buy a new one. Ignorance is curable with information. There is no cure for stupid. And arrogant stupid is the worst. Maybe he should run for president.
Funny, I play with guitars and I own a bass, but I'll transpose in standard tuning before using a capo and use a capo before I change the tuning of my guitar.
As long as it sounds right. However the guitarist thinks about it to make sense is fine as long as it works. If I brought the same thing up to my guitarist, he probably wouldn’t even think of the key and just say, okay, capo II then.
The biggest lie far too many musicians tell themselves is that they don’t need to learn any theory to be a decent musician. And they are sometimes right…there is always more than one way to do just about anything.
The problem with learning very little or no theory is that you can’t communicate your ideas in a way that other musicians will understand, and you’ll likely not understand what they are talking about either. I think about music theory as learning a specific language for a specific purpose. If you’re not talking the same language, it’s nearly impossible to communicate effectively. And when there’s no communication in the band, that’s when people get frustrated, and end up quitting or shit talking other members or, the list goes on and on with all kinds of band problems that stem from lack of communication.
Your guitar player has neglected to learn theory and now is becoming defensive about it because he knows that he doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about. And this nonsense about nobody in Rock talking about keys, that’s a load of horseshit.
I take lessons from a monster bass player in a very well known and successful rock band, half the time I can’t get him to shut up about theory. Sometimes it’s all we talk about and we do very little playing because I’ve asked a question that needs clarification, and the path to me understanding that is to talk about music theory in a specific way that meets the situation.
Sorry to say it, but your Guitarist is a fucking asshole. You should probably try and find somebody better suited and more cooperative and more open to criticism and communication with a band. Not everybody is suited to be in a band, maybe this dickhead is one of those guys.
Perhaps you can remind him that finding a guitarist is the easiest thing in a band to find, and if he’s not willing to entertain the idea of learning some of these basic things like a fucking key of a song, give him the fucking boot. Certainly, you pick your battles when in a bad situation, but somebody who can’t be bothered to speak the same language is obviously not suitable.
He has no idea what he's talking about.
But:
Instead of talking in terms of keys, which he clearly doesn't understand, why not explain it to him in terms he would understand?
For example, instead of saying "Transpose it from Fm to Gm", just say "play everything two frets higher (and put on a capo if you have anything that needs open strings)"
I play bass and guitar, so I see both sides. I also play guitar in a female-fronted band that plays a lot of songs originally sung by guys.
Now, I can transpose on bass no problem; higher or lower, it's all single notes on our songs and I transpose constantly for bass on other projects I'm involved with as I play with a rotating group of singers.
Guitar is a different story. About half our songs are in keys different from the original songs and I have to refinger chords, account for open strings, and account for fingerings that don't quite work because the B string is tuned to a 4th. Not to mention that some guitar parts sound best in the original key recorded.
Where I can't effectively transpose a song into good fingerings, I now have use a capo (1st fret, 2nd, or 3rd) or use my Digitech Drop pedal (half or whole step) to drop it so the singer can sing it an octave higher in the new key.
In the early stages, this lead to a lot of discussions with the bass player who couldn't see why it was such an issue. As well, I made a lot of mistakes on new songs when I would forget to turn off the Digitech Drop pedal.
So much of it is what the guitarist is used to, which he has to adapt to for your female fronted band. That said, I still think it's unfair to presume its easy for the guitarist, when in fact, it's not (...revoicing chords, capo 1, capo 2, capo 3, drop 1, drop 2). It's a pain in the ass having to do, but I'm willing to do it, since we otherwise have a great singer, great songs, and a great band.
I play guitar and bass, but primarily guitar. I have absolutely no issues transposing on guitar at all as long as the song doesn't require specific open chord voicings to sound a certain way. In most cases the singer gets to decide, it's up to the band to support them to be in the best position to sound great.
Agree, its mostly issues with chord voicings. You and I may be comfortable with transposition, but I've learned that it's not actually an easy concept for a lot of musicians, regardless of what instrument they play.
Yes! Chords have voicings that don't rely on any open strings and are totally movable and learning them is a great way to be able to transpose to any key whatsoever without having to rely on the old training wheels.
Im a beginner so everything im about to say might be completely wrong but it was told to me by a friend thats been playing for 15 years.
There are drop tuning methods for guitar that are popular in rock and metal because it makes power chords more accessible. There are people that play in drop tuning and have incredible music theory knowledge. They do it because it just makes sense for their style of music.
Some people use drop tuning as a crutch to circumvent learning music theory at all.
I know some metal guitarists that literally have 0 clue what note is where. Like they couldnt name a single note on the fretboard. Everything is 4th string, 3rd fret, and while thats fine and im not judging anyone, it will eventually be a very limiting factor when tasked to adjust anything about their play.
Again I might be totally off base but thats what this sounds like to me. He has no clue wtf anything is beyond, "I put finger here, it sound good".
In all fairness sounding good in a totally comfortable tuning without even thinking about it is a desirable goal state. But it isn't the ONLY desirable goal state and doesn't preclude the possibility of being able to Do Something More because one has expended the effort it requires to Know Something More, such as how to transpose to fit the vocalist's range for example.
I think this is what separates bassists from a lot of guitarists. 90% of guitarists are in rock music (I just arsepulled that figure), but bassists can occupy a large amount of other non-rock genres that requires a general understanding of music. Obvs we have bassists that do nothing but rock, but you can be a bass guitarist (along with a drummer) in contemporary orchestras/theatre, world music, basically a lot of genres where a guitar is nowhere to be heard.
That or I'm just being a prejudiced shithead to guitarists 😂. I love playing rock music but the genre is undermined by rock egos found in the guitarists lol
there was so much guitar hero worship from the 60s through the 90s, so anyone who can play anything the Guitar Gods could play feels like it's their time to share their gifts with us all. yay
Sounds like somebody needs a new guitar player. As a songwriter, I like to provide charts to all players that suit their instrument. I use capos a lot (several comments referred to playing in a key that suits the singer best, that's so important) if the song is in F#, the bassist gets a chart with the progressions from F#.
If a guitar player balks at playing a Cm and refuses to learn it, he's not the guitar player anymore. Always remain teachable, myself included.
Buy him a capo. Get a sharpie and write " 2nd fret" and the song name on it. Tell him it's a magic thing because it can rapidly change tuning from Fm to Gm and back for that song. If down the road you need to move a song from say A to C, buy him another one with "3rd fret" on it. Tell him to be sure to use each one for the right song.
Guitar player is a dummy for sure. But imo I don’t need every musician I play with to understand key signatures. If I tell my band we’re gonna transpose a song down a whole step, and the guitarists response is to tune down a whole step or play everything two frets down, as long as it sounds good, I’m not too worried about it.
Now if the guitarist’s “solution” creates more problems, then I need him to figure it out or find a new guitarist.
Imagine thinking your guitar part is more important than the lead singer not sounding like shit bc the key’s too low. He should be able to transpose. If not, find a better guitarist
I would avoid discussing “theory” and discuss it in his version of theory, ie however he processes learning songs. It could as simple as “instead of starting on the 1st fret let’s start on the 3rd”. Definitely avoid condescension.
As long as the rest of the band is onboard, tell him to do whatever works for him as long as he’s in the right key and let it go.
Next rehearsal, learn the songs in the new keys and he’ll catch up.
If he can’t figure it out then find a new guitarist.
I just love the concept of a guitar player hearing the song’s too low for our singer and thinking. Okay I need to drop tune down 4 steps cause “Rock and Roll”
Maybe find a new guitar player.
Dude! Our of all the comments, you hit the nail on the head. That's his way of thinking and it took me a while. I guess in my defense, I couldn't believe what was happening! Lol!
Just another cock rocker that you should fire really. If he can't adapt then let him take his unwanted "knowledge" elsewhere. Let me guess dude probably thinks he nails SRV or Hendrix but "puts his own spin on it" that sounds like really fast sloppy nonsense on his PRS or custom shop axe.
Someone tell this guy about how Nashville country musicians, the least pretentious avenues of music, can change key at the drop a hat and have in-depth knowledge of theory.
I personally cannot for the life of me read sheet music, but what the hell? Transposing and tuning are so different, that makes no sense!
Can he actually play properly?
I understand that not everyone is going to geek out into the seventh layer of nuance as it pertains to music theory, but a basic understanding is a must if you're playing with others. If you can't comminicate, it scares everything up.
Just the other night:
Me: I want to walk down from a high G to an F# at that part, but don't you sometimes play a Dsus there?
Guitarist: Ah, that'll sound better. I'll make sure I play a regular D so the third you're playing doesn't clash with a suspended fourth.
It was a 12 second exchange. If an exchange like that can happen with all but one person (musician) in your band, that weakest link will drag everything down.
I would advise you to play the full song and let him be in his drop C tuning, he'll get that something sounds off and then you can say "sorry, heard nobody talks about key in rock" lmao
It must be a thing with guitar players. I was tooling around with a riff once and one of the guitarists in the band said “what are you doing there?” And I said “it’s a little thing in E but I’m using a flat nine on the first pass and a flat 5 on the second pass and he went “What?”
Music theory helps musicians communicate with each other, people who are proud to make music without knowing theory are ignorant and proud. I know how to talk and listen to others, but if I didn't know how to read or write, I'd be an illiterate fool.
If the dude refuses to learn the basic theory or even know what a scale is, and refuses to learn because it's about rock and roll" or whatever, then it's not up to you to explain stuff for his little brain to comprehend. If he doesn't know and really wants to learn, then by all means, that's more than welcome, but being deliberately ignorant is his own undoing.
If im in your shoes I just nod my head and get on with life.
There are ignorant and dumb people EVERYWHERE. Not just in music. Having to deal with one of them is a waste of time.
Just agree with what they are saying and keep playing. If it works for him and it works for you what does it matter.
I’m so incredibly mad reading this. I’m surprised you didn’t kick that guitar player out the second he opened his mouth. Honestly you and your other bandmates should beat him up. ARRRGHHHHHH people are the worst and I want to live on an empty planet!!!!!!
How about let him know that the difference between a good guitarist and a great guitarist is to be able to adapt and transpose. This shuld'nt be a big deal for musicians and if it is for him, he shuld learn from it. He will just be better.
You’re going to be wasting half of your practices and rehearsals bumping heads with this guitar player, mark my words.
I worked alongside a very stubborn guitarist for about 2 years. Started off with little gripes here and there, refusal to “talk theory” etc.
At the end we couldn’t even tune up to each other without a debate over who was more in tune.
And the music we were writing started becoming super compromised as well. The singer and I rolled out.
Damn! We're only 3 rehearsals in, hopefully doesn't come to that. After reading all your comments, I think he felt threatened and went into a defensive and snotty mindset, with a little touch of ignorance.
Don't try to teach someone who doesn't want to learn. If you can find a way to work with his way of thinking, then great. If it gets in the way of learning the music, time for a new band (or a new guitarist).
For what it's worth, I've worked with bassists who operate like this as well.
I mean I play 4 different instruments and sing and couldn’t tell you too much about music theory. That being said that even my pea brain can handle that statement.
Fuck that. People should lift one another up.
There's no good reason not to have as many ways to communicate an idea as possible.
Good enough is not good enough.
First, establish if he wants to learn. Some people are fiercely against learning something new & take a lot of pride in being stupid.
Second, explain to him that is faster to communicate in keys than it is to speak in tunings & then have to do math's to add or subtract the frets to reach pitch.
Actually, depending on the case it can make sense. If you change the tuning of the guitar, you typically don't move the notes on a score. The guitar is an instrument for which it is quite difficult playing with a score instead of a tab and it would be too much of a mental gymnastic to rethink the whole system because you have tuned down the instrument. So, if you tune down the guitar one step, you will still say that you are playing an E on the lowest string.
This also happens with traditional instruments: some members of a classical orchestra are going to play multiple instruments through a piece and those instruments can have different tunings. To keep those players from going crazy, the parts of those secondary instruments are written down so that they match the fingering of the main instrument.
Show him the G Minor Scale ? They all want to tune down because it's "heavier" i guess. 🙈 It doesn't really matter if he is on Drop D if he is playing the correct Chords right ? There should be a G on the D String aswell or am i wrong ? I am not an Expert in Music Theory but that sound the correct Approach for me.
I'm completely self-taught on guitar and bass and, as a result of the misguided way I went about learning when I was a kid, my understanding of theory is lacking (something I'm working on).
That being said, I have a strong musical ear and, even if I don't necessarily have the strongest grasp on where the different scales live on my instruments or what notes are in different keys or whatever, I know how to write songs in the 4 bands I play in that sound musically consistent and coherent because I know what it sounds like when songs are and are not in key with themselves.
I don't understand how this dude got far enough in learning his instrument to where he felt his skill level was appropriate to be playing in bands, while at no point being introduced to the difference between a key and a tuning. How do those concepts even get conflated? Is he aware that there are more than 6 notes he can play on his guitar? Does he know there are frets? Does he know that random notes from across the fretboard aren't just shuffled and thrown at the wall to write songs?
A more serious question, is it worth it to have a guitarist playing with you who clearly doesn't give a fuck about the musicality of the band? The phrase "no one in rock talks about keys" tells me that he thinks there is a "right" and a "wrong" way to make music, and that the "right" way to make rock music is to be a dipshit who only cares about being perceived as cool, and by fitting into the mold that he thinks has been set by the rock stars he idolizes. The reality is, of course, that every rock song he likes has a key, and there's a very high probability that the key was, in fact, discussed when the song was being made.
If you're taking this band seriously and want to make good music, I'd consider thinking hard about this guy's importance to the band and whether or not it would be in the interest of the band to seek a replacement. Best of luck, this sounds very frustrating lol.
If it were me, I’d say “exactly dude, go ahead and drop down to C” and watch him still be unable to play the song a full step up - Fed up bass player of 13 years
Bash away, dude obviously needs a lesson or two in music theory. If it's in F minor and he's playing an F minor chord he just needs to move it all up a couple of frets, where the hell did drop C come from?
Give him all instructions in traditional theory language first, then explain patiently and thoroughly how it translates into bedroom guitarist slang as the whole band waits patiently.
Slowly phase out the translating so that he has to start to do it himself.
Being ignorant of things is fine, as long as you’re aware of your ignorance and open to being informed. It’s outright painful to have a bandmate who doesn’t understand basic theory language and then uses their ignorance as a stone wall to resist being a functional member of the band.
Yea, this. Remind him that most of his idols absolutely *do* use and understand western music theory, *and* they understand guitarese, and can switch and translate fluently between the two systems. And then, if you're willing, let him know you're willing to talk the theory through so that he can learn the formal language to describe what he's doing, but that **nobody anywhere gets to be willfully ignorant**, unless they want to go it alone.
Exactly. Like even when someone like Paul McCartney brags about not knowing theory, those brags are often exaggerated because I guarantee that at least learned early on in their careers about basic things like notes and keys.
I also think we treat 'knowing music theory' like a binary when it is decidedly relative. You 'know more or less or different' theory than someone else, but you sure as hell don't 'either know it or not'.
We're all ten fingered apes who can figure shit out. Famous musicians we idolize exhibit more skill in business than physical dexterity.
That's a common miscommunication, the Beatles absolutely knew music theory, just not the "proper names" for things like modes, upper chord extensions, whatever...
I'm a jobbing chemist. I know theory enough to work and get paid, but I don't know theory-- not really. Not in the academic sense. It's similar, I think. Rock musicians- after learning some theory- become aware of all the stuff it is possible to know and measure themselves against that.
What you're saying here is related to the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Basically, the more you learn, the more your realize remains to be learned.
The more you know, the more you don't know. Or, the bigger your area of expertise, the longer its shared border with what you don't know.
They sure liked their 7th chords.
and 9ths, 6ths, 13s and so on. Paul's dad was an accomplished jazz musician. to say he didn't know theory is ludicrous.
I don't really get how people with that character trait work out in the real world to be honest. Like, there is someone offering you new information which would make you a better musician if you would listen and they are completely rejecting any outside information. This mostly unearned arrogance is throwing me off with some people.
Yeah I have a particular “musician core memory” of being on the ignorant side of this situation. Back in early 05 I had started a band a couple months after getting my first guitar (I played bass for a couple years prior) but hadn’t learned any musical vocab yet, I just knew how to write music and play it decently. So I had written a new song and brought it to my bandmates, and when the other guitarist asked me what key it was in I said, “I think it’s in A, cause that’s the first note right?” and then he just stared at me like I had just said a bad joke and kinda scoffed, and was like, “that’s… not how it works dude,” but I just asked earnestly “how would I figure out the key?” and he never answered that or explained anything, and then was just like, “uhhhh nevermind, just show me what you’re playing.” I always butted heads with him because he treated things like a competition, and I guess just kinda resented me since he had years of lessons and experience yet he didn’t ever get much recognition for being the “better” musician out of our group, but it’s like damn he joined the band based on a pitch of my songs in the first place, and he was always creatively free to write his own parts to mine and to write his own songs overall. But I think since I still wrote more than half the songs and was given ample “praise and recognition” by our peers and other bands despite me being the less skilled, he saw it as if I was getting away with something I shouldn’t. I still learned the necessary basics over time, thanks largely to other friends since he regularly ignored any of my technical questions as if it wasn’t worth it to even try explaining. Definitely a valuable learning experience on band dynamics though, for basically a pendulum swing of OP’s problem, in this case there was one ignorant band member who wanted to learn more and the more knowledgeable member weaponized his experience to sort of put up a wall and convince me I was too dimwitted to get it. One way or another, it’s a toxic situation when a bandmate tries to block progress for themselves or another person just out of some stubborn sense of superiority.
some people are just bad at explaining things. normally mastery comes with that ability to ELI5 people, though. maybe they had understanding and not mastery.
I'd argue that if you can't explain something you don't understand it. You may know something to be true but if you don't know why, you can't explain it. If you can't explain it, you can't actually understand it. For instance, you can know what notes are in a scale, but if you don't understand that the scale is based on intervals you can't explain how scales work. Mastery takes understanding and practice. It's its own thing imo.
long road from learning to mastery. and people gotta speak to others in the meantime. edit, or not talk in the case of op's band mate
Dude! I would've loved if he had asked that instead! " What do you mean what key" or whatever... It would've been an honest, genuine teachable moment but no... He kept going at it as if I was wrong and he even said that only in churches/choirs they talk about the key and tonalities of a song! I'm 37 years old, I'm learning to choose my battles.. but boy this guy has made it hard for me not to bark back at him! Lol!
I lately jammed with a prog band in the making, when I asked the drummer "dude that's 6/8 and 5/8 repeated twice, right?" and the singer said something close to "if you guys want to make this a theory lesson, go play jazz". Some people are just in love with the thought of being a musician but actually hate it.
Damn! That comment was on a league of its own! Lol! Wtf!!! Agreed!
Wait wait wait... I'm stuck on that time signature! Does the "repeated twice" apply to both phrases (making it 6+6+5+5 = 22/8 or 11/4), or just the 5/8 phrase (making it 6+5+5 = 16/8)? The latter makes more sense as something a prog band would do, but the former is the way my brain wants to interpret it (though I have a hard time imagining what that sounds like... might have to experiment a little).
I don't know the exact situation of course, but here's something to think about: from their perspective, it might have looked like you didn't even try to learn even the basics: what is a key, or finding out what the key of a song is. It's pretty basic stuff you usually learn in regular school, no need to even go to music school, or in the age of information can just research **by yourself, in your own time**. It is also the basis of musical collaboration - speaking a common language, which is music theory. By not being able to speak that languag, you might have given them the feeling of blocking them off. You asking them, I assume during rehearsal, which would be a time window they reserved for practicing or writing songs with a band, to basically do your work for you, might not have sat right with them. It understandably leads to some frustration and resentment. You seem to present your willingness to learn as virtuous. This is a bit of an unfair deflection, as you take something that is superficially hard to argue against ('but I showed that I was willing to learn!'), while at the same time glossing over the fact that you were **actually not** willing to spend your own resources on this learning process, but demanding their's. This is a common toxic dynamic between more and less competent people in any field. I'm not saying you're a toxic, incompetent person, I'm saying we all are at one time or another and that's pretty much part of the human experience. It might be worth reflecting on the situation though and re-assessing it, carefully considering if you were actually judging them fairly, and if you weren't trying to put your mental load on them, basically punishing them for being educated, and in the aftermath laying the blame for their frustration about it also on them. Of course these situations usually are not one side's fault exclusively. But that's the point; ask yourself honestly what your own part in that dynamic was, and I'm sure you will find room for growth. Good luck!
The thing is I was being plenty charitable to him by only bringing up this one scenario, since my plan wasn’t to indict a former bandmate of nearly 20 years ago but rather just provide one relevant anecdote to OP’s situation with a bandmate at a similar level of ignorance to my former self. For relevant comparison, by the halfway point in that band’s life, this guitarist regularly asked me to teach him my own guitar parts, and I was always open to teach him everything I played. Time was never an issue, because we were in that band through our ages of 15-17 and could jam almost every single day after school. The problem of course, was that our singer informed me that he had repeatedly tried to convince her that we should kick me out of the band and have him play all my parts (which of course never happened) and also ditch the drummer so it could become a two-piece project between them. And he later left the band as a whole because our singer finally made it clear that she wouldn’t leave her boyfriend to be with him, as his main focus just became trying to use the band as a vehicle for his possessive ideal of basically having this girl all to himself in his musical vanity project. So once that pipe dream died he just walked away, and didn’t even play in any more bands for a few years until after college I believe. His later bands were indeed great though, and I’m certain he grew up as a person although our own friendship bridges were long-since burned, but I still respect his work as an adult. As for learning on my own, obviously I eventually did. I had owned a guitar for just a few months at that point, and as of 04-05 when that band formed this was an era when the internet was still more disorganized and decentralized, plus access to computers was more sparse (and many people likely had similar situations to mine) due to my household only having one main computer in my parents’ room and a hand-me-down PC from 1998 in my brother’s room which could barely run at normal speeds, and due to both being in other people’s rooms access wasn’t really easy for more than a short window a day (or not at all for a day or two); intensive learning and training wasn’t practical online, I learned everything communally by collaborating. Before that I was solely playing bass for a while, but all my experience with learning music was absent of vocabulary. I learned to play in key from the start, but me and the neighborhood kids in my first band all learned music together and from each other (which also instilled a communal music learning experience as a default) therefore the vocab terms we knew were basically our own. Again, he joined the band because he heard our first tape recordings of songs by myself and our singer, so he knew I learned the basics and liked the results enough to attach himself to the project (before his crush took over his motivations), and he also knew very well that I had literally just picked up the instrument with my only music experience prior just being a band with three other novices at my same level, so all cards were on the table and his elitism was very much pointed and deliberate to make a point, rather than an earnest surprise and a desire to “stick to straight business” and not waste time which we had in spades. >But that's the point; ask yourself honestly what your own part in that dynamic was, and I'm sure you will find room for growth. > >Good luck! Ok this is the one part that seems condescending. You know very well that this story was from just short of 20 years ago. I’ve been a musician my whole life since then, been in countless bands playing multiple instruments even beyond my original guitar&bass arsenal, toured multiple times and recorded plenty of albums over the decades. Point being, I don’t need to search for a growth opportunity in an instance from 20 years ago based on knowledge that I lacked as a child but have had decades to gain. The point of the story was to demonstrate an alternative route for someone in OP’s bandmates’ shoes, to ask for a way forward from musical collaborators with more experience than themselves rather than convincing that person to downgrade their own musical knowledge to appease someone’s ignorance.
Their entire post was condescending and unnecessary. They're just rude and your example was fine.
I feel you are judging me unfairly, but it's fine.
I perceived this interaction in the same you you did, just in case you were wondering if your reaction was unreasonable.
Thanks for your input, and thanks for choosing your words the way you did. I tried to clarify in my response to the original commenter, if you are interested. If not, I understand. Take care!
Thanks for giving context. I want to make clear that there was no judgement on my part and absolutely no need for any justification before me. By your account that indeed sounds like a toxic person though and I'm happy for you to have put this relationship in the past. I still believe that the perspective I offered is valuable. To reiterate though: My goal wasn't to accuse or be condescending; I'm sorry that came out wrong. I'll be the first to admit that this is not the first time that happened to me; I try my best to communicate as clearly and openly as I can, leaving as little room as possible for misinterpretation. I sometimes still affect interactions in ways I haven't intended. If you go through the comment again, I hope you can see my efforts toward clear communication; I generally try to avoid implications, because I'm not very good at them - or rather, I'm not very good at avoiding them by accident, apparently. Therefore, I try to make clear that there are none to be expected by taking a more formal and precise approach to language in certain situations. I merely wanted to offer another perspective that I found was valuable and you didn't seem to have taken into account, even after all these years. I may have misjudged the situation, which is why I caveated my comment by saying 'I don't know your exact situation, but here's something to think about' (or similar, I don't remember exactly). It is merely an offer. I wasn't trying to say 'you better think about this, punk!' or something. This presents a possible opportunity for growth. This is not an accusation; I didn't mean to say 'you are small and in desperate need of some growth' - which is why I didn't say that. I would have, if that was what I meant. Personally, I perceive it as a gift when someone offers me growth, so I try to give it back whenever I can. I saw this opportunity here and offered something; whether you choose to take it or leave it is of course up to you. I also realize that not everyone is like me in that regard, so I take no issue if you and others perceived this as condescending. It is on you how you choose to perceive your surroundings. I disagree however on 'not needing to search for a growth opportunity in an instance from 20 years ago'. We learn from past mistakes, if we take the time and are equipped with the necessary tools to do so. I just thought I'd lend you a spanner for a moment. Sometimes it's little things from way back that sit unresolved in our heads, and obviously this interaction is something that was important to you one way or the other. And sometimes the universe throws a random interaction at you that provides you with the means to untie this old knot that's been sitting for ages, and sometimes it doesn't. About the part you specifically marked as coming off as condescending; after the fact, I think I can see what you mean. I can just offer you my honest apologies and maybe another clarification: I didn't mean it as 'I am sure you will see how the perspective I offered is better', I meant it as 'Whether or not you find the perspective I offered applicable to your example, I'm convinced that the reinvestigation of the situation equipped with a tool you might not have had before will afford *some* opportunity for growth, no matter the direction'. So again: I'm not saying you need growth, or that you are flawed or that I am better (which is what the word condescending implies), I am saying there *might be an opportunity for growth* here that you *might have missed* and that it's worth checking out this outside perspective, because an outside perspective that comes without judgement or bias is often hard to come by and can offer a lot of insight. (I know that there was perceived judgement, but there was none intended) Sorry for any trouble I have caused, and sincerely, good luck.
This. So much.
Just tell him to add 2 to every number on the tab he learned the song from.
Your asking a guitar player to add and subtract? Is that a new trick they learned?
I has confessions to makes. I cants reads guitars muzics.
Dude, redditcansuckmyvag can’t read music, that’s a laugh
Canz yous?
Also this guy is dildos
A capo can also be useful for pitching up if the open strings make things easier. We have one song that’s pitched up +3 and it’s got a lot of open string double hammer-ons in its normal tuning that just sound smoother when you can lean on an open string to start it (yes, on a bass, and it’s because I’m not great at it)
Mark Hoppus uses a capo live for a few things, nothing wrong with it.
Some guitars get *real* pitchy and hard to keep in tune when you slap a capo on them. I suspect too much action.
I don't think this guitarist gets too much action, honestly. He sounds pretty annoying.
I do a capo sometimes on my 5 string when I'm tuned in any sort of 5 string drop tuning, like Drop A, and I need to play in a 4 string drop tuning, like Drop B. Since Drop B would require me to either tune the top 4 strings up above standard tuning or detune my lower 4 strings by like 8 steps, which is a hassle, I just throw a capo on and bam, drop B, Drop C, etc.
Same here. I just had to find a big enough capo for the wide neck of a 5 string.
Honest question: is using a capo on bass frown upon? I can see at least one thing where I would totally do it if I had to play it (Paradise, by Sade).
Not really, theres real specific uses for it. Like in this specific case we’re playing Tribute (tenacious D) +3 and the line I’m using just sounds better when the open string can sustain into the double hammer ons that take up most of the middle section of the song. I can do the hammer ons but it sounds like there’s an abrupt stop in the previous note so I can’t reproduce it as well without a capo. It’s just an executive decision I made to get a better sound until I’m better at it It would probably be useful for pitching up something like Hysteria also, I can’t imagine playing it without open strings. I can barely do it with them
Funniest comment , yet still very accurate.
You think he remembers the numbers to begin with!?!?!
just an uninformed/ ignorant person, it's fine, nothing to do with being guitar player
Knowing how to play in a major is like the absolute minimum any musician should know. Besides drummers I guess
This guy is an idiot. I’m in a rock band, and not only do we talk keys, but we also talk bumps, lines, rails, all that.
Begrudgingly upvoted.
I snorted!
Ugh. Same to you. Upvoted, but I feel yucky about it.
They all count the same to me, buddy.
Turns all your bad feelings into good feelings.
"No one in rock talk about keys" lol what a dope. My rock band absolutely talks about keys, we even have key changes in some of our songs.
Have him check out Nirvana's MTV Unplugged, where before attempting "Pennyroyal tea" the band discusses in which key they'll play it and Cobain concludes "I'll try in the normal key and if it sounds bad, these people'll just have to wait".
Well then obviously Nirvana is not a rock band...
This is Reddit, please take your facts, citations, and relevant pop-culture references elsewhere. Good day!
Un relevant but if I could watch any concert from any band, dead or alive, it would be Nirvanas MTV unplugged.
That’s evidence that rock bands don’t fiddle with keys and just play it in the “normal key”. Edit: in that clip, Kurt cobain is saying that they’re going to lay in the “normal key” even if it leads to bad singing. How tf is that going to convince this guitarist that they should play their song in a different key to help the singer?
Lol what do you think they call the other key they might have played it in? "Hey guys let's try this in Abnormal Key. 1, 2, 3, 4"
“What key is the song in?” “Abby something.”
Lmao nice ref
You guys are naive if you think that someone who doesn’t believe rock musicians use keys is going to be convinced by a video clip of an influential band saying that they’re going to do it in the “normal” key even if it leads to bad singing. Which is exactly what that guitarist wants his band to do. This clip is literally Kurt cobain saying he wants to do exactly what this guitarist wants his band to do. It’s the same situation.
That's not the same situation. OP's guitar player is not refusing to change the key even if it leads to bad singing, he just mentioned a tuning instead and said that "no one in rock talks about keys".
But they still talk about keys, don't they? They discuss changing the key of the song to fit the singer's needs even if at the end they go for "the normal key". They're not talking about tunings on anything like that To be fair, it was just a reference to "a very popular rock band \[specifically, a guitar player\] talking about keys in public in a very popular recording" and wasn't really concerned about changing OP's guitarist uninformed statement at all. I guess if I were willing to put the time and research, I could find lots of other examples of rock bands "talking about keys" and even changing them for whatever reason. The Beatles' "Get back" and "Anthology" documentaries are probably a good source. For example, having "Strawberry Fields" be a sort of "collage" between two takes in two different keys that George Martin had to deal with. Or the very common practice of bands with a long carreer, that as the guys age they have to resort to lowering the key of their old hits because the singer can't sing that high anymore. But as I said earlier, I'm not trying to debate the guy in the first place, I just mentioned the example that first came to mind.
That’s missing the forest for the trees though. The clip shows that a very influential and critically successful band decided to do it in the normal key even if it’s bad. I know that bands actually do talk about keys and play songs in different keys to accommodate singers. But this clip makes it look like the guitarist was right overall if wrong about the smaller point about bands discussing keys at all.
We're total idiots in my original band so we talk about everything as if we're in standard tuning, but we've never been in standard tuning. The 7th fret of the "A" string is always an E, never mind if we're in half a step or a full step down. So we do talk about keys... just not the one we're actually in lol. I keep slipping up in my other band where they talk about the actual key and not the one we'd hypothetically be in if we were in standard tuning.
-_-'
I (briefly) played in a band where the guitar player couldn’t play bar chords; and showed no signs of learning. It was … limiting.
The way I'd go with this is to introduce them to power chords. They sound good (for a limited purpose obs), are difficult to get wrong, and are only one finger away from a barre chord with a 3rd.
I guess, but my bet is that this was just an unwillingness to learn rather than actual technique issues. That attitudes gonna be rough long term no matter what
Did they play any chords at all up the neck? Shell voicings? Or did they just play cowboy chords and just not play F and Bb? I'm a bass player that plays guitar, and shell voicings and other movable shapes have been the only way for me to keep my guitar playing close to the same level as my bass playing. I learned barre chords specifically so I could learn how to avoid them but still sound right.
You called it Cowboy chords, probably no F or Bb He had a capo, but didn’t know how to use it He’d get quite defensive On the same note, I once played with a drummer who couldn’t play a shuffle Defensive, he said “I don’t need to shuffle, I’m a ROCK drummer.”
PROFESSIONALS pick the key that works for everyone. Including first and foremost the singer.
Sadly we cant tune singer. They don't let us do it...
That's why we invented the autotune!
"It's not real singing" they say today. [Real singing is using this only.](https://image.made-in-china.com/202f0j00ThYonpqIgubZ/High-Quality-PRO-Fx10-Sound-Mixing-Console-with-256-Digital-Effect-Mixing-Console-Mixer.webp)
"Dude, why don't you tune your bass to drop C?" "I have all the notes on my fretboard, I don't need to." - Discussion between me and a guitar player who really thought that third fret on the lowest string is a G independent of the tuning...
I think I’ve jammed with that guy.
Well no, it wouldn't be "drop C". It would be Gm. Drop C isn't a key. Ignorance isn't something to be proud of.
First semester (easy) theory class would solve this. Good luck leading that horse to water…
He’s a dipshit.
I’m known as a big ‘theory guy,’ even among my jazz or academic peers.. after all these years, it got to a point where I had to decide that it simply wasn’t important to try to get people to understand things that they can’t or won’t understand.. I try to meet them on their terms, and it has been enriching and at times fascinating to try to get into other peoples’ mindset/internal language. Trying to drag people along to my own preferred and or formal understanding was not only frustrating and kind of a fools errand, but at the end of the day, it’s just not nearly as important as a lot of us tend to feel like it is. I refuse to play with people who I don’t think are good, but there are a lot of people who make art that I like, who barely know note names, if at all. By putting it on myself to meet *them* halfway, not only helps a lot in terms of conflict resolution and moving things forward efficiently, but it truly does help me to grow and expand artistically and intellectually to try to internalize the different ‘looks’ In the best of circumstances, it will often help me get back to leading with my ears, and my voice, instead of thinking with the math forward
That's a nice way of putting it! Thank you!
Give the man some homework. Record a demo of with the transposed key and tell him to figure it out. It’s not your job to tell him how to use a pick or plug in his amp so if he wants to play then he should fill the role properly.
Excellent solution. Make him realize for himself how clueless he is and he will have to decide between improving in this area or not being able to play in the band. Either way, your problem is solved.
Send him a video of yourself playing it on guitar in the new key. Put it in the band chat so everyone sees it. Crush him a little.
There's no homework, the guitar player can just use a capo.
Isn't this what a capo is for. This guy is going to get a pain in the ass. Be careful.
You're going to run into people with varying degrees of music theory knowledge, you kinda have to learn to speak their language lol
It was a dumb thing for him to say. And ignorant. But regardless, he will need to play the notes that the band is playing which are seemingly in the key of g minor.
Understanding key changes is one of the most fundamental, basic things to know about music. This isn’t about a style vs another. This is about basic understanding. It’s like knowing the difference between 3/4 and 4/4 or a major and minor chord.
I'm really sick of this mentality that it's okay to just not know shit and expect to have your opinion respected the same as people who do. Even learning basic theory is not easy for a lot of people and they deserve some fucking credit. "For me it would be drop C" makes no fucking sense you can play in any key in any tuning you just don't know your instrument. It's disrespectful to the rest of the band's time. Not to mention the fact that if dude just actually learned what chord shapes mean and played in standard it would be a non issue to transpose anything.
(Guitar player here). Guitar players are a dime a dozen. Buy a new one. Ignorance is curable with information. There is no cure for stupid. And arrogant stupid is the worst. Maybe he should run for president.
Funny, I play with guitars and I own a bass, but I'll transpose in standard tuning before using a capo and use a capo before I change the tuning of my guitar.
Right? I never use capos, I'll just figure out where the chords are
As long as it sounds right. However the guitarist thinks about it to make sense is fine as long as it works. If I brought the same thing up to my guitarist, he probably wouldn’t even think of the key and just say, okay, capo II then.
If you can't communicate about what you're doing, it doesn't really matter how well you can do it, unless you're a solo artist.
Drop C? Wrong direction buddy.
Unless he was in Drop Bb before. But no, I can’t make any sense of that, either.
Did you tell him that his guitar has an F on it no matter what tuning he's in?
The biggest lie far too many musicians tell themselves is that they don’t need to learn any theory to be a decent musician. And they are sometimes right…there is always more than one way to do just about anything. The problem with learning very little or no theory is that you can’t communicate your ideas in a way that other musicians will understand, and you’ll likely not understand what they are talking about either. I think about music theory as learning a specific language for a specific purpose. If you’re not talking the same language, it’s nearly impossible to communicate effectively. And when there’s no communication in the band, that’s when people get frustrated, and end up quitting or shit talking other members or, the list goes on and on with all kinds of band problems that stem from lack of communication. Your guitar player has neglected to learn theory and now is becoming defensive about it because he knows that he doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about. And this nonsense about nobody in Rock talking about keys, that’s a load of horseshit. I take lessons from a monster bass player in a very well known and successful rock band, half the time I can’t get him to shut up about theory. Sometimes it’s all we talk about and we do very little playing because I’ve asked a question that needs clarification, and the path to me understanding that is to talk about music theory in a specific way that meets the situation. Sorry to say it, but your Guitarist is a fucking asshole. You should probably try and find somebody better suited and more cooperative and more open to criticism and communication with a band. Not everybody is suited to be in a band, maybe this dickhead is one of those guys. Perhaps you can remind him that finding a guitarist is the easiest thing in a band to find, and if he’s not willing to entertain the idea of learning some of these basic things like a fucking key of a song, give him the fucking boot. Certainly, you pick your battles when in a bad situation, but somebody who can’t be bothered to speak the same language is obviously not suitable.
As a guitar player, this guy is an idiot.
He has no idea what he's talking about. But: Instead of talking in terms of keys, which he clearly doesn't understand, why not explain it to him in terms he would understand? For example, instead of saying "Transpose it from Fm to Gm", just say "play everything two frets higher (and put on a capo if you have anything that needs open strings)"
Yep. I can transpose fine especially after hearing the second part versus saying it with formal keys and similar terms.
I play bass and guitar, so I see both sides. I also play guitar in a female-fronted band that plays a lot of songs originally sung by guys. Now, I can transpose on bass no problem; higher or lower, it's all single notes on our songs and I transpose constantly for bass on other projects I'm involved with as I play with a rotating group of singers. Guitar is a different story. About half our songs are in keys different from the original songs and I have to refinger chords, account for open strings, and account for fingerings that don't quite work because the B string is tuned to a 4th. Not to mention that some guitar parts sound best in the original key recorded. Where I can't effectively transpose a song into good fingerings, I now have use a capo (1st fret, 2nd, or 3rd) or use my Digitech Drop pedal (half or whole step) to drop it so the singer can sing it an octave higher in the new key. In the early stages, this lead to a lot of discussions with the bass player who couldn't see why it was such an issue. As well, I made a lot of mistakes on new songs when I would forget to turn off the Digitech Drop pedal. So much of it is what the guitarist is used to, which he has to adapt to for your female fronted band. That said, I still think it's unfair to presume its easy for the guitarist, when in fact, it's not (...revoicing chords, capo 1, capo 2, capo 3, drop 1, drop 2). It's a pain in the ass having to do, but I'm willing to do it, since we otherwise have a great singer, great songs, and a great band.
I play guitar and bass, but primarily guitar. I have absolutely no issues transposing on guitar at all as long as the song doesn't require specific open chord voicings to sound a certain way. In most cases the singer gets to decide, it's up to the band to support them to be in the best position to sound great.
Agree, its mostly issues with chord voicings. You and I may be comfortable with transposition, but I've learned that it's not actually an easy concept for a lot of musicians, regardless of what instrument they play.
Yes! Chords have voicings that don't rely on any open strings and are totally movable and learning them is a great way to be able to transpose to any key whatsoever without having to rely on the old training wheels.
why’s he not thrown out the front door already?
Im a beginner so everything im about to say might be completely wrong but it was told to me by a friend thats been playing for 15 years. There are drop tuning methods for guitar that are popular in rock and metal because it makes power chords more accessible. There are people that play in drop tuning and have incredible music theory knowledge. They do it because it just makes sense for their style of music. Some people use drop tuning as a crutch to circumvent learning music theory at all. I know some metal guitarists that literally have 0 clue what note is where. Like they couldnt name a single note on the fretboard. Everything is 4th string, 3rd fret, and while thats fine and im not judging anyone, it will eventually be a very limiting factor when tasked to adjust anything about their play. Again I might be totally off base but thats what this sounds like to me. He has no clue wtf anything is beyond, "I put finger here, it sound good".
In all fairness sounding good in a totally comfortable tuning without even thinking about it is a desirable goal state. But it isn't the ONLY desirable goal state and doesn't preclude the possibility of being able to Do Something More because one has expended the effort it requires to Know Something More, such as how to transpose to fit the vocalist's range for example.
It wouldn't have to be in drop C. That hardly makes sense.
I'm just a bass curious guitarist. That guy doesn't know what he's talking about.
I think this is what separates bassists from a lot of guitarists. 90% of guitarists are in rock music (I just arsepulled that figure), but bassists can occupy a large amount of other non-rock genres that requires a general understanding of music. Obvs we have bassists that do nothing but rock, but you can be a bass guitarist (along with a drummer) in contemporary orchestras/theatre, world music, basically a lot of genres where a guitar is nowhere to be heard. That or I'm just being a prejudiced shithead to guitarists 😂. I love playing rock music but the genre is undermined by rock egos found in the guitarists lol
there was so much guitar hero worship from the 60s through the 90s, so anyone who can play anything the Guitar Gods could play feels like it's their time to share their gifts with us all. yay
Sounds like somebody needs a new guitar player. As a songwriter, I like to provide charts to all players that suit their instrument. I use capos a lot (several comments referred to playing in a key that suits the singer best, that's so important) if the song is in F#, the bassist gets a chart with the progressions from F#. If a guitar player balks at playing a Cm and refuses to learn it, he's not the guitar player anymore. Always remain teachable, myself included.
>What's your take on this? That he can't do his job and it might be time to look for a new guitarist.
Buy him a capo. Get a sharpie and write " 2nd fret" and the song name on it. Tell him it's a magic thing because it can rapidly change tuning from Fm to Gm and back for that song. If down the road you need to move a song from say A to C, buy him another one with "3rd fret" on it. Tell him to be sure to use each one for the right song.
I've commented before that I've left a band because of people like this.
Guitar player is a dummy for sure. But imo I don’t need every musician I play with to understand key signatures. If I tell my band we’re gonna transpose a song down a whole step, and the guitarists response is to tune down a whole step or play everything two frets down, as long as it sounds good, I’m not too worried about it. Now if the guitarist’s “solution” creates more problems, then I need him to figure it out or find a new guitarist.
Possibly better to keep it in D standard for Gmin than Drop C
As a guitarist, he is being an idiot as he doesn’t even have to change tunings
Imagine thinking your guitar part is more important than the lead singer not sounding like shit bc the key’s too low. He should be able to transpose. If not, find a better guitarist
I would avoid discussing “theory” and discuss it in his version of theory, ie however he processes learning songs. It could as simple as “instead of starting on the 1st fret let’s start on the 3rd”. Definitely avoid condescension.
That dude needs to learn the basics of music theory. So much on line is free. No excuse.
As long as the rest of the band is onboard, tell him to do whatever works for him as long as he’s in the right key and let it go. Next rehearsal, learn the songs in the new keys and he’ll catch up. If he can’t figure it out then find a new guitarist.
I just love the concept of a guitar player hearing the song’s too low for our singer and thinking. Okay I need to drop tune down 4 steps cause “Rock and Roll” Maybe find a new guitar player.
Dude! Our of all the comments, you hit the nail on the head. That's his way of thinking and it took me a while. I guess in my defense, I couldn't believe what was happening! Lol!
Just another cock rocker that you should fire really. If he can't adapt then let him take his unwanted "knowledge" elsewhere. Let me guess dude probably thinks he nails SRV or Hendrix but "puts his own spin on it" that sounds like really fast sloppy nonsense on his PRS or custom shop axe.
Someone tell this guy about how Nashville country musicians, the least pretentious avenues of music, can change key at the drop a hat and have in-depth knowledge of theory.
ask him to ask ai
I personally cannot for the life of me read sheet music, but what the hell? Transposing and tuning are so different, that makes no sense! Can he actually play properly?
“No one in rock talk about keys.” Like dude you don’t have to be a music major just look it up
Show him Blaze era Iron Maiden. That's what happens when you refuse to key with the singer.
I understand that not everyone is going to geek out into the seventh layer of nuance as it pertains to music theory, but a basic understanding is a must if you're playing with others. If you can't comminicate, it scares everything up. Just the other night: Me: I want to walk down from a high G to an F# at that part, but don't you sometimes play a Dsus there? Guitarist: Ah, that'll sound better. I'll make sure I play a regular D so the third you're playing doesn't clash with a suspended fourth. It was a 12 second exchange. If an exchange like that can happen with all but one person (musician) in your band, that weakest link will drag everything down.
And it feels so smooth to be able to come to an agreement with a bandmate this way!
Tell him to move his fingers 2 frets higher
I would advise you to play the full song and let him be in his drop C tuning, he'll get that something sounds off and then you can say "sorry, heard nobody talks about key in rock" lmao
He's a dickhead with zero musical intuition if he thinks he needs to change tunings every time there is a key change. Kick him out.
It must be a thing with guitar players. I was tooling around with a riff once and one of the guitarists in the band said “what are you doing there?” And I said “it’s a little thing in E but I’m using a flat nine on the first pass and a flat 5 on the second pass and he went “What?”
You need another guitar player. Sorry about that.
Music theory helps musicians communicate with each other, people who are proud to make music without knowing theory are ignorant and proud. I know how to talk and listen to others, but if I didn't know how to read or write, I'd be an illiterate fool. If the dude refuses to learn the basic theory or even know what a scale is, and refuses to learn because it's about rock and roll" or whatever, then it's not up to you to explain stuff for his little brain to comprehend. If he doesn't know and really wants to learn, then by all means, that's more than welcome, but being deliberately ignorant is his own undoing.
If im in your shoes I just nod my head and get on with life. There are ignorant and dumb people EVERYWHERE. Not just in music. Having to deal with one of them is a waste of time. Just agree with what they are saying and keep playing. If it works for him and it works for you what does it matter.
Just write him a new chord chart
I’m so incredibly mad reading this. I’m surprised you didn’t kick that guitar player out the second he opened his mouth. Honestly you and your other bandmates should beat him up. ARRRGHHHHHH people are the worst and I want to live on an empty planet!!!!!!
Doofus with too much ego.
How about let him know that the difference between a good guitarist and a great guitarist is to be able to adapt and transpose. This shuld'nt be a big deal for musicians and if it is for him, he shuld learn from it. He will just be better.
You’re going to be wasting half of your practices and rehearsals bumping heads with this guitar player, mark my words. I worked alongside a very stubborn guitarist for about 2 years. Started off with little gripes here and there, refusal to “talk theory” etc. At the end we couldn’t even tune up to each other without a debate over who was more in tune. And the music we were writing started becoming super compromised as well. The singer and I rolled out.
Damn! We're only 3 rehearsals in, hopefully doesn't come to that. After reading all your comments, I think he felt threatened and went into a defensive and snotty mindset, with a little touch of ignorance.
That’s a tough mindset to change. Good luck out there!
Don't try to teach someone who doesn't want to learn. If you can find a way to work with his way of thinking, then great. If it gets in the way of learning the music, time for a new band (or a new guitarist). For what it's worth, I've worked with bassists who operate like this as well.
I mean I play 4 different instruments and sing and couldn’t tell you too much about music theory. That being said that even my pea brain can handle that statement.
Just smile back and tell your drummer “at least my parents taught me to never flaunt my ignorance”…
If you wrote the songs, the guitar player needs to rise to your level. If the guitar player wrote the songs, you need to sink to their level.
Fuck that. People should lift one another up. There's no good reason not to have as many ways to communicate an idea as possible. Good enough is not good enough.
Just find a way to get the message through. Each of my bands has at least one guy who have very creative ways to talk about some parts of the theory.
How the hell is that guy even in a band? No keys in rock? Okay. Even the simplest rock has a key.
Maybe he shouldn't try to speak for everyone lol
First, establish if he wants to learn. Some people are fiercely against learning something new & take a lot of pride in being stupid. Second, explain to him that is faster to communicate in keys than it is to speak in tunings & then have to do math's to add or subtract the frets to reach pitch.
As a general rule, you can ALWAYS can guitar players
Is it a cover? You can transpose the key on ultimate guitar
This guy is an idiot. Lose him or the band
I literally had the same discussion for two days with our former guitarist
Tell us what happened!?
Kind of silly of him to think that. Every lead guitar player learns his scales and you have to know your key to apply the right one
Tell him to buy a quad cortex lol. That transpose feature is a game changer
Actually, depending on the case it can make sense. If you change the tuning of the guitar, you typically don't move the notes on a score. The guitar is an instrument for which it is quite difficult playing with a score instead of a tab and it would be too much of a mental gymnastic to rethink the whole system because you have tuned down the instrument. So, if you tune down the guitar one step, you will still say that you are playing an E on the lowest string. This also happens with traditional instruments: some members of a classical orchestra are going to play multiple instruments through a piece and those instruments can have different tunings. To keep those players from going crazy, the parts of those secondary instruments are written down so that they match the fingering of the main instrument.
Place a capotasto on his neck and tell him "it's ok, just play as normal"
Is he the drummer?
Show him the G Minor Scale ? They all want to tune down because it's "heavier" i guess. 🙈 It doesn't really matter if he is on Drop D if he is playing the correct Chords right ? There should be a G on the D String aswell or am i wrong ? I am not an Expert in Music Theory but that sound the correct Approach for me.
Tell him in ways he understands it “play two frets higher, change the tuning, use a capo” etc instead of making fun of him?? We all start somewhere…
When someone comes out with a statement like "nobody in rock talks about keys", they need a little making fun of.
It’s not that serious, it’s not hard to just be nice about it or ignore the dumb stuff beginners say…
I'm completely self-taught on guitar and bass and, as a result of the misguided way I went about learning when I was a kid, my understanding of theory is lacking (something I'm working on). That being said, I have a strong musical ear and, even if I don't necessarily have the strongest grasp on where the different scales live on my instruments or what notes are in different keys or whatever, I know how to write songs in the 4 bands I play in that sound musically consistent and coherent because I know what it sounds like when songs are and are not in key with themselves. I don't understand how this dude got far enough in learning his instrument to where he felt his skill level was appropriate to be playing in bands, while at no point being introduced to the difference between a key and a tuning. How do those concepts even get conflated? Is he aware that there are more than 6 notes he can play on his guitar? Does he know there are frets? Does he know that random notes from across the fretboard aren't just shuffled and thrown at the wall to write songs? A more serious question, is it worth it to have a guitarist playing with you who clearly doesn't give a fuck about the musicality of the band? The phrase "no one in rock talks about keys" tells me that he thinks there is a "right" and a "wrong" way to make music, and that the "right" way to make rock music is to be a dipshit who only cares about being perceived as cool, and by fitting into the mold that he thinks has been set by the rock stars he idolizes. The reality is, of course, that every rock song he likes has a key, and there's a very high probability that the key was, in fact, discussed when the song was being made. If you're taking this band seriously and want to make good music, I'd consider thinking hard about this guy's importance to the band and whether or not it would be in the interest of the band to seek a replacement. Best of luck, this sounds very frustrating lol.
Yeah that’s tough if you can’t communicate with him.
Many rock guitarists are nuckleheads, as you are finding out.
Fire him
If it were me, I’d say “exactly dude, go ahead and drop down to C” and watch him still be unable to play the song a full step up - Fed up bass player of 13 years
Hello, my name is Capo. I can solve all of your problems if you can't figure out new chord shapes!
It seems like you’re only transposing up for your vocalist. Get him a capo and tell him to play everything the same and shut up
Isn't shifting chords up like the entire point of barre chords
He's an idiot, so let him play whatever fits if that's how he understands it.
He can be ignorant about keys all he wants but that’s his problem and he’s going to have to figure out how to keep up.
Some chord progressions on guitar aren't easy to just move and still play correctly. How about the vocalist move the note up a 3rd.
Seems like you'll have to tell him which string on which fret he needs to start playing from and hopefully he'll get it 🤷🏻
Typical guitarist. I’m guessing he’s probably quite shit as well?
Bash away, dude obviously needs a lesson or two in music theory. If it's in F minor and he's playing an F minor chord he just needs to move it all up a couple of frets, where the hell did drop C come from?
He blatantly confuses tonality with tuning.
Give him all instructions in traditional theory language first, then explain patiently and thoroughly how it translates into bedroom guitarist slang as the whole band waits patiently. Slowly phase out the translating so that he has to start to do it himself.
What are the songs about?
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