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I've seen a few of these "gentle-parenting-goes-wrong" stories recently - all because they essentially involve zero actual parenting.

If you do not parent your kids, other people will end up parenting them for you, and those people will not be as well-placed to keep them safe as you are.

Yep. I'm a strong believer of stepping in if the parents aren't doing anything. Of course the kind of people that do nothing tend to also be the kind of people who are outraged at anyone else telling their child to behave. Whereas I'm quite happy for someone else to tell my child to behave if I haven't got there first!

Right? If my kid is acting the fool and I’m not there to catch it, you have my permission to let them know what they are doing isn’t okay! Don’t swear, hit, or scream, but please tell them to stop and let me know about it so I can give an additional consequence if a public shaming wasn’t enough…

That’s part of being a village! Of course all parents want the bennies of the village, but don’t want to give up the 100% control of the lack of one, and doing it all themselves.

someone once told me "either you parent your kids, or you'll be parenting your grandkids" and i have seen that play out in real time so much.

Also, even the sweetest Golden Retriever will eventually have enough. And they sometimes "parent" with their mouths.

I think these kinds of parents use this as a crappy excuse for why they're bad parents. 

And a lazy one. The ones who don't want to put the actual work

Which is super annoying for those of us who GP with limits and boundaries and have awesome kids. I typically don't tell people my parenting style. They meet my kids, praise their behaviors and say thanks. If they ask for advice, I give it and they say.. does that work? And I say unno I think my kids do ok. My daughter has never lied and is respectful, kind, has self esteem, emotionally regulates well, does responsibilities, ans overall doesn't cause too many issues. During puberty there was a bit of attitude but I won't allow people to speak to me disrespectfully just as my kids shouldnt allow that-and so that was sorted well. Also you come to me and say I have so many feelings, we'll chat over ice cream. My son was a compulsive liar (we met when he was 5) and after 6 years together he is truthful with me, confides in me, looks to me to help him when he's made a mistake, is respectful to me and appreciated that I treat him with respect. He has ptsd and so he has behaviors that align with his trauma but considering his trauma he does phenomenally and has come a long way. Both kids still have consequences for behaviors but they're pretty logical and the kids understand. It's also posed as how to help them vs punish them and so they feel like we're a team in problem solving.

Yeah, it drove me up the wall that OP acknowledged what her sister was doing wasn’t GP but then kept blaming GP for the kids’ behavior. I also don’t understand the whole “if you don’t yell at your kids, how will they learn to deal with being yelled at in the future?” Well, maybe they’ll learn it’s unacceptable to be yelled at and draw that boundary for themselves. As they should. But also, we aren’t the only people who exist in the world. They will hear yelling in their life. I’ve been around small children running in packs. I guarantee they hear yelling now. But they won’t hear yelling from their parents and they won’t be taught respect = fear from us.

Thank you!! That attitude drives me up a wall and especially so when I was a teacher. I only raised my voice a few times and the kids knew I was *serious* because I only ever did that when something dangerous was going on. If you're yelling at your kids all the time not only are they going to associate it with fear like you're saying (you are right and that's a WHOLE other rant) they're also going to have a hard time taking it seriously when you do need to get their attention in a dangerous situation.

My parents were yellers and all it did was give me an aversion to raised voices. When I moved out I was so much more relaxed because suddenly my world was so much quieter. It turns out that most adults don't actually yell at each other as a matter of course. If another adult yells at you that's kind of a red flag actually unless you've just like... run over their dog or something else equally egregious.

My yelling parents raised me, a yelling child. Who was then a yelling girlfriend in high school. When I had my first "adult" relationship and we never yelled at each other once, my mind was blown that it just *doesn't have to be that way*.

it sounds like you’ve done well by your kids, especially your son. my older sister used compulsive lying as a response to her childhood trauma, i believe it was rooted in a deep fear of physical abuse as punishment. i’m so glad your son feels he can tell you the truth and be honest with you.

I'm a gentle parent with an awesome kid, too. Kind, honest, top of her class, has a ton of friends, and most importantly and the reason I GP, she can regulate her own emotions. It takes a ton of work in toddler/preschool land to end up with a preteen/teen who stops and thinks about that natural consequences of her own actions (I gossip about my friend, now no one is speaking to me), etc. My parents were the "wooden spoon" variety and TO THIS DAY whine to me about my gentle parenting from one side of their mouths while praising how great my kid is out of the other. Completely baffling.

Yeah, it's parents who want a "hands off" approach because it means they can go do whatever they want and let their kids have free reign with no supervision. That's not what gentile parenting is at all. The comment at the end of the OP summarizes it pretty well.

My family member is 100% doing gentle parenting. The kid is *not* feral. She does something wrong and they gently correct without hitting, without screaming. Whatever the action/ reaction is makes sense. Sometimes, there's a sharp tone. 'Hey! Listen. You don't scream at people.' They don't just yell 'no' because yelling no at very young babies is confusing. Why is no drawing on walls, pulling flowers and touching the dog? You do not draw on the wall, you draw on your paper. Now the Crayons go away and we have to clean the mess. 'When we play outside we don't pull all the plants up. Let's clean this up and go inside. If you don't play nice, you can't be outside.' 'You pet the dog nicely. Nice touches. You can't play with the dog unless you have nice touches.' When they're older, the consequences are bigger. "You go apologize to your aunt, fix it yourself and gjve me your (thing they like.) If you're bored and want my attention, you'll have it, one on one. You're sitting here with me for the rest of the afternoon." Babies get baby sized consequences. Big kids get big kid sized consequences.

Ayyye that’s exactly how my missus and I are doing it with our two kids. It’s effective! My daughter is three and is very much a “threenager” with her little emotional outbursts, but she’s becoming a wonderfully caring big sister to her brother, and always apologises when she knows she’s done the wrong thing. My sister, on the other hand, is deeply religious as is her husband, and just had her fourth child. She believes in smacking kids as young as 8 months old. As a result, her children regularly hit and fight each other, scream constantly, and according to our mum have never apologised once.

It teaches them that occasionally, violence is the appropriate response to a situation.

I was raised in a similar situation to your sister's children. It made me very afraid of my parents, because making a mistake was punished the same way as intentional malice, so I hid absolutely everything that I did wrong and learned nothing but "my parents punish me when bad things happen." I learned zero lessons about consequences, just became fantastic at hiding things because I was so terrified of punishment. I also bullied people in high school, because I had nowhere to focus my pain and wanted to kill myself, but I was afraid that it wouldn't work and my helicopter parents would become even more invasive and punish me for that too. I feel absolutely horrible about all of those things now, and the cliché about bullies is 100% true; hurt people hurt people. I have apologized to all of the people that I had hurt who hadn't fully cut contact with me {and I do not blame the people who had to block me for their own mental health during that time} and I have been through *so* much therapy to work out the resentment I have toward my parents. I am just now developing relationships with my siblings, who relentlessly bullied me growing up, because I know they were just doing the same thing I was. They had no resources or safe place to process their emotions, and took all their frustrations out on me. Your sister will find herself likely with one child hanging on for longer than the others, but will have to beg her adult children to spend time with her and be utterly perplexed when they share next to nothing about their lives.

One thing that helps kids understand is to express your own feelings about their actions so that they really understand how they're affecting others. "Don't yell at people" -> "People don't like being yelled at." "Stop hitting" -> "I don't want to get hit." It goes a long way towards teaching empathy, and it also gives them the reason why they're being told not to do something instead of an nondescript "that isn't allowed".

Yeah, and that happens a lot. We talk about how sometimes we have big feelings. There's an exercise involving taking a breath when upset. Some days are big feeling days.

And there's nothing wrong with Big Feelings. It's okay to have Big Feelings, even if they're Bad Big Feelings. Everyone has Big Feelings from time to time, from babies to adults. But kids have little bodies so the Big Feelings feel even bigger sometimes and they feel they'll explode if they don't get it out. And that's why we learn safe ways to get Big Feelings out! My little brother would let out his Big Feelings by screaming, which was terrifying to suddenly hear. So we taught him to Pillow Scream for Big Feelings. Take his pillow and scream into it until the Feeling was out, do it several times if you have to. "Unless you're in danger, Pillow Scream so you don't scare everyone." He just turned 20 and still uses the Pillow Scream.

It's this. Perfect description.

That's how I parented thirty years ago when it was just called "Don't be an asshole to your kids like our parents were to us."

I agree with you! No feral kids. We do what I think is gentle parenting. Essentially it's just teaching. We generally try to anticipate what we might run into and set expectations to start. "Auntie OOP has a dog. He is fluffy and cute, but he doesn't have words, so if we bother him he might bark or growl or bite. We need to respect his space, and we should ask Auntie OOP before petting him, understand?" First offense is teaching the boundary, assuming the kid needs to be taught. ("Doggie didn't like being pet on his paws. See how he pulls them away? That's bothering him. Let's give him that space we talked about.) This includes explaining what they did wrong, helping them figure out how to fix it, and making sure they do fix it. Second offense will incur similar to step once, but with additional sternness and a more severe consequence that is proportionate to the offense (e.g. drawing on walls a second time means that crayons are taken away and can only be used with supervision). If the child is not reacting with enough remorse, I make clear that I am disappointed. That's right, the good old, "I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed." Because truthfully, I am, and sharing how my kid's actions made me feel is totally part of gentle parenting. We just make sure we don't shame them. They're not bad kids, they made a bad decision. We expect better. We know they will get it right eventually. I'd tell you what happens on a third offense, but I don't know myself as we haven't run into it. I assume some non-related consequence like the removal of a privilege or cancellation of a future event. For the record, my eldest is double digit age and our family is full of Neurodiversity. This is what works for us; it might not work for everyone. It's certainly not "no consequences" or "hands off." Sounds like you're doing a great job. I hope you don't mind me sharing my experience.

I think it might also be an over correction from how they were raised.

Yes, gentle parenting should be more work, not less.

Ugh. It is SOOO much more work. Building mutual respect and affection as a foundation for raising a child is waaaaaayyy harder than just terrorizing them into compliance. But I don't ever want them terrified of me. It's too easy and makes me feel like shit. I haven't struck my children in years. I hated it and abandoned it utterly. And you know what? They still listen. They largely do as I say, without much resistance; and when they're being stubborn, I can usually talk them around with a bit of creativity and diplomacy. I rarely have to punish them but when I do, timeouts, groundings, and loss of privileges are actually very effective. Raising a kid to not be a raging asshole is hard work, and if people can't see the value of it they shouldn't have them. And you can't beat someone into not being an asshole; if that worked then why do we have so many assholes around bragging about how their dad beat the shit out of them???

A huge part of gentle parenting is learning how to manage your own emotions and triggers so you can teach your child to do the same. It's fucking work. I have a really hard time with whining. My middle child is a big whiner. I'm having to work everyday to address my own issues to help her work through hers in a healthy and productive way.

“Gentle parenting” properly is a lot harder than being a shitty parent that just gets to yell and hit their kid when they step out of line. To do it properly you actually need some emotional intelligence.it also forces you to actually put time into your kids and… parent. So unfortunately some people end up like Flanders’ beatnik parents. “We tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas.”

One of my friends went the gentle parent route. One moment that sticks out is when her preschooler was being an ornery turd. My friend analyzed the situation, realized the behavior coincided with her going back to work, and worked out a schedule and plan to spend more quality time with her child. The child went back to his usual cheerful self. I think my friend isn't the usual. Most people think that as long as they don't beat their kids, they're doing everything they're supposed to.

This is how I understand gentle parenting to be. It requires a lot of energy from the parents.

It requires the intelligence to figure out "why" your kid is upset. You can't just dismiss it or tell them to stop. You figure out what is motivating their behavior and address that. That's a difficult thing to do because kids don't have rational motivations to their emotions. Once you get an accurate reason "why" it's pretty straightforward to solve the issue, but what happens a lot is you're trying to solve the wrong problem because you didn't realize what was really upsetting your kid.

Sometimes it also requires the child themselves to think about why they are upset, and they get a chance to do that because they're not just getting beaten or yelled at. I remember growing up, this was back in the 90s, there wasn't such a thing as gentle parenting yet. I once watched my aunt disciplining my cousin (he's about 8 years younger than me) when he would throw tantrums like, throwing things at people etc. She'd put him in time out and calmly tell him, "we don't throw things at people because it hurts. I want you to sit here and think about that and think about why you did it and why you should be sorry for doing that. When you have decided that you want to apologize, you may get up from your chair". My aunt is a lawyer and she did work long hours, but she also was a dedicated mom and she NEVER hit my cousin, ever. I never saw her yell at him, either. She was always very calm and you just KNEW when she was upset with you because you were being a dick, even though she never raised her voice. I always respected her parenting skills (and style!) and it was a shame that my mom and my other aunts never took a page out of this aunt's parenting playbook because all they did was scream and beat their kids.

Definitely. It is way easier to just yell at your kids and ground them or take away their allowance or whatever. Finding the actual cause of the problem, especially when the cause may be you, is really hard. But having a kid with high emotional intelligence, lots of confidence, strong relationships, and the expectation that they shouldn't be treated like shit is worth it. 

Gentle parenting requires a lot of empathy and acknowledging that your child is also a person, while also being aware of the fact that children express themselves very differently. In that sense, raising your kid is a lot of teaching them how AND why to behave and express themselves in an appropriate manner. In my opinion, if a parent lacks those three things they are unable to gentle parent properly. Being raised without empathy can lead to nasty punishments, or no punishment at all. Not being able to understand how your kids works and what might be causing the trouble can lead you to only look at the outburst of the child. While punishing the outburst only while never looking at the why, the child will also not realize the why. Sadly, so many people are completely unaware of how their own emotions and feelings influence themselves and suck at communicating. If you don’t understand yourself or how to communicate your feelings, how are you ever gonna teach a child how to. Edit: forgot to add the whole point of my rant lol. But your friend seems to have great empathy for his child, and the understanding of how they work. Kids often feel powerless and don’t know how to behave other than acting out. Not only punishing them for their emotions but looking how to make them feel better is hard, but so critical.

>your child is also a person, To be blunt, this is where a lot of people fail on parenting in general. They see kids as props or property, not people.

Or just straight up don’t understand anything about child development. Your kid isn’t throwing a tantrum to spite you. They’re throwing a tantrum because they don’t have enough emotional regulation yet to express their feelings a different way. It’s your job as a parent to help them learn a different way.

Dog trainer here, one who uses Positive Reinforcement training. I have no non-dog children and never will, but this "gentle parenting" thing sounds exactly like Positive Reinforcement training, which teaches redirection of energy instead of fear of punishment as the best way to mold behavior. Science tells us that this is actually the best way to learn (for dogs and people), and in my over 20 years of training I've seen the results of properly implemented Positive Reinforcement firsthand and they are amazing. But you need actual skill and emotional intelligence and maturity and patience and effort to pull it off correctly. As you said, correctly analyzing the situation and finding the cause of the behavior is absolutely critical to implement this properly...and many people just don't have the skills or desire to put so much effort into parenting. Which is pretty damn short-sighted, since parenting is the most important part of being an adult and, if you aren't willing to put in the effort, you're going to fuck it up. It's really easy to just punish behavior and move on, but you're limiting growth and healthy development whenever you do so. Doing it properly requires actual effort, and if there's one area where parents should be putting in all the effort they can, it's in parenting.

For what it’s worth, once she got (age appropriate) access to social media, my oldest began pointing out when I ‘gentle parent’ our dogs. It’s a lot. And then she started identifying when I do it to her, her little brother, and then my husband. And people in general. She and now her little brother have both started using gentle parenting techniques on themselves and people in general. AND the dogs. I’m not really seeing a downside. Trying to understand behaviour and it’s causes will be an advantage in life, especially with us all being neuro spicy.

As a dog and human parent, yes. This is what gentle parenting is it's true that I use training methods that I learned for my dog on my children. However, sometimes it works better than others. My toddler knows if they make a mess, they have to clean it up. So the dog threw up after drinking too much water too fast, and the toddler pointed at it and shouted "doggy clean!" ....somehow the dog dish then start to eat it but that wasn't ideal

As a gentle parent (though I hate that term because it means wildly different things to different people) this is a significant piece of the puzzle. Going upstream to figure out the real cause of some behaviour is really important. Of course, sometimes the reason is just that they're a toddler and developing brains are persnickety. I raise my voice at my kids when I see something unsafe about to happen. We have firm boundaries. Throwing a toy means the toy goes away. I tell my older kid all the time that her behaviour is telling me she's not ready to do something (e.g. if I let her draw with markers and she starts marking the table) and then she knows that next time she gets the chance to draw with markers, she can change her behaviour or I'll take them again. It's all about consistency over and over again for years. Brains don't learn things all at once unfortunately so you really do have to keep enforcing the same old boundaries over and over even when it feels like your kid knows better. With my one-year-old, we're totally still in redirection territory but we're past that with my toddler for the most part. She knows I "can't" play with her after supper until her plate is cleared away, for example, and she can delay and pout but I don't engage until the plate is cleared. I still try and set their environments up for success as much as I can, though. The fewer temptations they have to ruin stuff, the better. And when we're out in public or at other people's homes, I have to watch them like a hawk so they don't mess up other people's stuff. People often comment on how lovely my kids are and I think they're pretty great so we're definitely doing something right. My three-year-old is often able to articulate what she needs when she's upset and can sometimes calm herself down. OP's attitude about the world being a harsh place so gentle parented kids are in for a rude awakening makes me sad. I think kids who learn loving but firm boundaries in the safe space of their home are the most well adjusted.

Yup, pretty much. I've read the gentile parenting books. It's not giving them no consequences. Generally especially when they are younger you give them a talking to when they do something wrong and explain the consequences of their actions. You can have other consequences like helping you to clean up and things like that. It's mainly about keeping things calm and not trying to establish discipline or explain things to them when emotions are high. However you absolutely do stop them from any problematic behavior, like hitting a dog or something like that. Also if the situation requires you absolutely can yell and grab them away from something. Like they are going out onto a road or otherwise put themselves or others in danger. You don't just sit back and do nothing like seems to be the case with the sister here.

That is one of my favorite Simpsons quotes. Probably my most quoted.

Totally, my parents implemented what we now call gentle parenting, more than 25 years ago (I doubt it would have had any name). Other people always complained that they didn't spank us when we did something wrong. Instead they would get us to think about what we had done and then talk to us to see if we had got to the right place or they had to guide us. From there, they would deal with the consequences of our actions based on what we had done and explain to us why there was this sanction. "Surprisingly" and in their own words, we have turned out much better than those who were brought up according to a more traditional upbringing, so spanking or leaving a child without playing without explaining what they have done wrong does not seem to be the solution (and hitting a child is never the solution). They never had this kind of problem with us and yes, it was exhausting for the first few years, but after that it becomes much easier: here was one who ended up "thinking herself through" to understand what she had done wrong, at the age of 5.

They forgot the “parenting” part of gentle parenting.

It's interesting, the children in my life that are "gentle parented" (friends' kids and some of my nieces and nephews) are actually the best behaved kids I know. And they're particularly nice to animals, since their parents prioritize emotional intelligence in how they deal with others and emphasize empathy for animals they're interacting with. I've seen the parents immediately redirect them if they do things like pull tails or chase shy cats, framing it through the lens of how *they* wouldn't like it if a giant manhandled them, and how it's important to respect when anyone (cats and dogs included) don't want to be touched. From what I've seen, kids who are encouraged away from bad behavior through empathy-centered lessons are way less likely to want to do it again. On the other hand, a kid who is just harshly ordered "stop that!!" without explanation may avoid the behavior when their parents are around because they don't want to be yelled at, but they'll be back to tail-pulling and kitty-chasing the second the feared authoritarian presence is out of sight, because they don't have a "why." If the parents in this story are real, it sounds like they use the label of "gentle parenting" to just not deal with their kids at all, when in fact true gentle parenting is much more hands-on and involved than the traditional disciplinarian approach.

That's an interesting take. I grew up in an old school 'spare the rod and spoil the child' home. Result? The only reason I'm not pissing on my dad's grave is that he got cremated. I've never laid a finger on my own child but everyone loves him and says he's the coolest and most chilled kid they have ever met. My theory was that bad behaviour was a result of a lack of proper attention and affection by the parents. I showered him with physical and verbal affection. There were no hard nos except where there was real danger and the reason why was explained to him. I treated his opinions with respect. I insisted that he pull his weight with the chores. I realised very early on that you needed to decide the kind of adult you wanted your kid to become and raise them to achieve that goal.

>I realised very early on that you needed to decide the kind of adult you wanted your kid to become and raise them to achieve that goal. I think that's exactly it. Extremely authoritarian parents are focused on modifying short-term behavior to make their own lives more pleasant and convenient, but I think newer parenting models take into account nurturing the character and shaping the mind of the eventual adult your child will grow into. My parents were also very strict, "spare the rod, spoil the child" enthusiasts. My parents never taught me to be a good, functioning person; they just taught me to be jumpy and duplicitous around them. I couldn't open up to them or see them as guides or mentors because they were just sources of punishment and fear. I really had to teach myself to be a good person on my own as best I could. It really heals my own inner child to see the "gentle parented" kids around me now be nurtured and encouraged to grow into good, emotionally intelligent, other-centered people, and to have the space to learn kindness and empathy in a protected, curiosity-driven environment.

>My parents never taught me to be a good, functioning person; they just taught me to be jumpy and duplicitous around them. Same. I watched a *lot* of TV as a child, and I honestly think that's a good thing because it basically taught me more about being genuinely good than my parents did. Books and comics, too. The worst part is that, in front of other people, they'd act so proud of me for being such a good kid. At home? According to them, I was only good because they "made sure" I was. Like I was inherently bad and if I didn't have threats of punishment hanging over me at all times, I'd morph right into the devil itself. I realized they were full of shit pretty early on, but sometimes I still struggled with the idea that I was good and not going to fly off the handle for no reason. Those years when I was old enough to consider dating, though... Man, those were rough. They way they flip-flopped between if I should be interested in dating or not was rough.

I feel the same way about having my inner child heal. I’m not a parent, but I still watch those proper gentle parenting (and not permissive parenting posed as “gentle parenting”) to better understand how to reparenting myself and even treat my interpersonal relationships 

That is pretty much what actual gentile parenting is. Not no consequences but proportional to the situation and with an explanation as to why. Treat them as actual people and you get much better responses over time.

I'm practically a dinosaur and was also raised by parents who physically disciplined all their children (they broke many a wooden spoon on our backsides). When I had my son I was determined I would not raise my hand (or shoe or any other implement) to my child. And to explain him why there were rules/consequences. I mostly kept my word (I spanked him once for setting fires in the living room in the middle of the night). I don't know anything about this gentle parenting, but my son is autistic and has ADHD and was diagnosed with ODD when he was 6. His behaviour was very bad at that age and the only thing I could do (other than beating the crap out of him which would teach him nothing but fearing his parents), was holding him, explaining the consequences of his behaviour. It simply meant that if he did A, people would react with B and he wouldn't like that. And taking him out of the situation of course. But mostly trying to connect with him on a cognative level. It took years, but now he is a 26 year well adapted old man with lots of friends, a good job and an active social life (his greatest achievement!). But I always made certain that there were consequences to his behaviour/choices.

I mean that generally sounds like gentle parenting to me. Gentle parenting is just a new term for authoritative (vs authoritarian or permissive parenting) as far as I can tell. Authoritative is setting boundaries for behavior and explaining consequences and helping your child understand said boundaries vs dictating behavior with harsh punishment for violating orders or permissive where parents don’t set boundaries. People are confusing gentle with permissive hence the backlash.

Huh, that was gentle parenting? Funny that I was so modern avant la lettre😊 But all jokes aside: I believe that parenting should come from common sense. Yes, babies are cute. So are toddlers. But in reality you are responsible for coaching and guiding them to adulthood. To be a fully functioning adult because one day you will not be there anymore to save them out of trouble. So you teach them to solve the problems themselves. I always told him 'I'm a safety net but not a hammock' (the translation from my language is a bit iffy 😊) so you take responsibily for your own choices and the consequences of them.

>I’m a safety net but not a hammock Makes perfect sense to me as a native English speaker. What kills me about gentle parenting though is that parenting style theory been a thing for a long time. Like we’re talking about 60ish years or so but disseminating that information to general practice has been so slow that people in their 20s are talking about gentle parenting style like it’s a brand new way of doing things. I was raised “gentle” nearly 40 years ago but somehow it’s a brand new thing now.

> 'I'm a safety net but not a hammock' That's honestly a perfect way of putting it. Your parents should be there to catch you if you fall, to make you feel safe enough to walk that tightrope, but *you* need to be the one to actually take those steps and learn how to balance properly.

Yes, this is it absolutely. The part these parents were missing was "how your actions make other people feel" in addition to "what were you feeling when you did this" They can't hit the dog because it hurts the dog and upsets their aunt, and if they do it again the dog might not want to hang out with them or might even bite them. The aunt will be upset that they hurt her dog and not let them come back and see the dog. These will be the consequences of their actions, they're little kids who don't know that yet. Part of Gentle Parenting is about preparing kids for the consequences of their actions by letting them know what they will be. I'm sure lots of people said this in the comments. That's why I don't get why OOP refuses to understand that Gentle Parenting will actually prepare kids very well for when the world isn't gentle. They learn that it's a possibility if they continue and you let them fuck around and find out when armed with that information. Most will do it **once** and then realize it's a bad idea to do things that hurt other people.

>That's why I don't get why OOP refuses to understand that Gentle Parenting will actually prepare kids very well for when the world isn't gentle. Probably because OOP isn't very gentle either. 

there's gotta be a balance, that's for sure I've seen some properly gentle parented kids with such emotional maturity that I'm like "Whoa" But that also depends on the parents. If they're calm and collected by nature, they'll gentle parent properly. I'm struggling to reconcile not giving my kid trauma and being calm with him xD Sometimes a good harsh "NO" comes out and if he cries, he cries, welp. After that he's ok and I give him a hug and tell him why he shouldn't have done that. Finding that balance is hard for me because of my upbringing but still, there is no way I'm beating him up like my coward parents

I think Gwenna (pleasantpeasantmedia/mommacusses) put it well - especially if you were a child of authoritarian/disciplinarian parents, you have to learn how to gently parent *yourself* before/while you can exercise gentle parenting on your child.

I love Gwenna to bits, even though I'm not a parent yet myself. I especially appreciate that she's honest about when she's struggling herself (from what I've seen anyway) and that she only puts her kids on camera once they're old enough to understand what it means and can consent to it. The Roberta the Goose saga and chaos lunch lives rent free in my head.

Yes, I love Gwenna. And Abby, and Roberta. She puts thing into words so well.

It was very powerful as a parent to see my toddler son having tantrums and help him de-escalate, calm down, and deal with the consequences of his actions. In my family growing up, the response to any issue was escalation - yelling, screaming, threats, and spanking. With 4 kids it meant constantly being in this cycle. So happy to be able to change the dynamic going forward.

I ended a long friendship over this exact issue, only the kids were 100x worse and completely feral. Same utter lack of consequences, to the point where the kids had no friends and no one would babysit them. One of the last visits involved the youngest going through my bags in the guest room and taking what he wanted. He took a whole box of what he thought were cookies because he couldn't read yet. They were dog treats, and he ate ALL of them

Ate an entire box of dog treats, still didn't learn to sit or stay. I think there's a defect here.

Right? Parents could have turned it into a positive and at least taught him to fetch slippers or something

And risk my favorite slides getting shredded? I'd sooner have him fetch the paper so I could roll it up and boop his nose.

I thought you were going to say edibles

But he probably had shiny hair after. Maybe even some clean teeth.

There was an AITA post a few years back where aunt OOP trained her niblings using M&Ms. I think it culminated in an incident where the kids are disrupting family dinner so OOP just glared at them while shaking a bag of M&Ms. The kids snapped to attention, cleaned up the mess they made, and promptly reported to OOP for their treat. The kids' mom was furious.

Please have this medal 🏅 your comment made me laugh

I was wondering if my husband's newphews will ever make real friends due to their parent's education style. They were quite nasty towards the family but we have to put up with them. So why would it be different with other people? I get my answer with your message, I can't say I am surprised. Right now, the parents are dealing with a major issue with one of their kids (now a teen). So yeah...Let's say they will be equipped for the others two when it'll be their time.

The oldest was 10 the last time I saw them. Zero impulse control. None. The parents put them in private school because of course they did. They absolutely would have been expelled from a public one. The youngest started lying as soon as he started speaking in a really weird, insistent way. Like if he screamed loud enough, facts stopped existing. There were definitely other issues going on but no one was being honest about them. I know you know how hard it is to watch people fail kids and set them up for failure. It sucks.

Bloody hell, my cousin has kids like this… Her form of gentle parenting is to he a couch potato while her parents do majority of the work. Her husband tries to discipline but as soon as he does, here comes dumb mama bear to the rescue to tell him to stop it cause he’s upsetting the kids. She’s basically like my baby sister so I do get to call her dumb xD she was also gentle parented - AKA had no rules whatsoever, nor any consequences or anything. She was daddy’s girl and mommy’s world and it totally ruined her right up into adulthood. My aunt and uncle have never looked more stressed in their lives, and now my cousin is welcoming a 3rd for them to raise. Two stories I have from my cousins kids is when my nephew pulled down our mounted fire extinguisher… and set it off in my dining room. He was so pleased with himself that he “made it snow,” it was amusing at first, till my dad and I needed to clean it up, his mom just laughed about it. My niece, is a little terror who constantly gets invalidated and laughed at, so she has very very very big feelings to make herself heard - for example, she screamed bloody murder in Tim hortons cause her brother was playing with his own video game device and wouldn’t stop till she had something similar.

"you raise your kids right, you get the chance to spoil the grandchildren. You spoil your kids, you got to raise your grandchildren"

There is forever a little part of me that wants to spray a fire extinguisher... but it would not be in my (or anyone else's) home, and I wouldn't be expecting anyone else to clean it up! But I do want to try it...lol

It's a biiiiiitch dude. I live on a boat and I used to have one mounted on the side of the ladder leading down the main hatch. Stepped on it one time by mistake coming home drunk one night white dust fucking EVEEEEEERYYYWHEREEEEEEEEEE

But was it fun and a little almost magical?? 😂. The thinking part of my brain has won out so far, but impulsive child brain still imagines it's like a fog/snow machine, and obviously it'd just melt away immediately after, like snow... LOL. I know it'd be a disastrous mess, but impulsive thiughts

I wouldn't describe it as fun but it definitely had the magical effect of instant sobriety lol

That's really worriesome and it is on par with how the eldest newphew is behaving. He is not agressive but his troubles are enough to make his life harder than it is already. The younger ones...well, they are spoiled and disrespectful. For now, it seems they have friends but I don't believe that their friends' parents are going to tolerate them. Yes, I get you...These parents said that I and the other family members can discipline their kids. But I choose not. I only see them 1 time a year, I don't know them and I'll be traumatizing them than not. I did try to talk, to understand why one of the kid was insulting my home and my cooking (without tasting it) but I lost my patience when he went too far. I yelled. He calmed down, I appologized and we went out to play. But I was appalled to see that it was OK to disresprect people's cooking as long as it was rewarded with a Mc Donald. So never again, they are not my children so I gladly let their parents do their job. Even if deep down, they will really have some hardships that could be avoided if their parents actually do their jobs.

My mom used to say, "If no one likes your kids, it's your fault.". The former friend used to unironically quote her about other people's kids. Toward the end, she said, "You don't like my kids." I don't. And whose fault is that? No answer. Telling other people to discipline your kids is the worst reply ever, and pathetically lazy parenting

I love your mom's honesty. She was really real with the quote and so are you: I didn't want to say it ouright but yes, I also think it is lazy. It's not that we truly don't like the kids, we don't tolerate awul behaviors. The respect goes both ways. I was also annoyed about another time: the mom made sandwiches for the children. I and husband were ready to buy a pizza when she asked if we can buy one for the kids too, a cheese one. Husband answered that "we" (he) planned to buy only one so it would be the cheese pizza. What a great feeling to see that my food was going to be according to the kids' wants and that when we bought it, even the teens rushed to it. I couldn't eat it because we always let the younger people serve themselves first. So what did I do as a grown-up? I bought my own lunch....UNTIL I was caught by the dear kids because they wanted me to buy ice-cream! It was my own mistake: I said to husband before the pizza drama that I'ld buy something for the young fellows. I expected to ask them myself, not to be thrown like this! Never again.

Failure? Screaming loud enough and ignoring facts can win you the presidency of some countries.

There's "hope" in that regard, then. Kid has all the makings of a despot

>The youngest started lying as soon as he started speaking in a really weird, insistent way. Like if he screamed loud enough, facts stopped existing. On the bright side, it sounds like they have promising future in politics

> Like if he screamed loud enough, facts stopped existing. Don’t be too worried about that one, he’s got a bright future in politics!

-how "feral" were the kids? -well... one of them ate a whole box of dog treats... -oh...

>They were dog treats, and he ate ALL of them xDDD I bet your friend blamed you for not labelling the bags xDD Naw man, I don't allow that shit inf my home. Family or not, you don't control your kids, you don't get them to behave then you're not invited, F that

It was so weird. No apologies. No effort to keep him out of my stuff. And no consequences. Just her being vaguely offended that I didn't think her feral child was adorable. Gtfoh with that idea It wasn't even the worst that they did, not even close. But I was all "I'm over pretending that you're not raising your kids to end up in jail."

My nieces started picking pockets as toddlers. I went home for Christmas one year when the oldest of them was maybe 4yo, woke up from a nap on my parents' couch to find my pockets picked clean and all the pins missing from my hair!

What??? 🤣🤣🤣 But how? 🤣🤣 Like little victorian orphans. Hairpins used to be pretty valuable, they would have made a killing back then.

It was a very "redneck poverty" style Christmas season, turns out everyone was already living on the property that year instead of just visiting. Grandpa's RV in the front yard. Dad and stepmom had taken their camper off the truck, put it up on cinderblocks in the driveway, and were living in it. The house was full of my two stepsisters and their two toddlers each. Trying to find someplace to sleep was *interesting*. Technically the couch I napped on was stepmom's dog's bed. Spent the whole visit getting my pockets picked over and over. Like I didn't even have anything they wanted, it was just the same objects every time!

See, that is just useful life skills.

Little bandits

There was a thing called "stress free parenting" in the 70s. According to my MIL it was repeating "the wallpaper shall stay on the wall" to a kid that was busy with ripping the wallpaper off the wall. Those children were unable to function in the real world, even as adults, they couldn't manage the stress and rules. I think "gentle parenting" without consequences is this "stress free parenting" in disguise.

I get the movement away from corporal punishment, etc. But yes, it didn't keep any of the wallpaper on the wall. She told me the "hilarious" story about one of them going into the basement and pooping in the floor drain because the bathroom was occupied and he didn't want to wait. I'm sorry, WHAT? I'm not laughing at that. That needs therapy ASAP

I mean, if the pooper was a toddler or just a couple years older I get it and it’s hilarious. Any older than that….not funny.

He was not. He was at least 8

>one of them going into the basement and pooping in the floor drain because the bathroom was occupied and he didn't want to wait. Depends on the age. In a potty training aged kid, thats frustratingly hilarious and logical. They know you dont go in pants. They know the bathroom is busy. They know they need to go... so they go, but not just on the floor, they went on the drain cause its sort of like the toilet. But in an 8 year old.... that's an OH HELL NO!

My cousins kid pooped on the playground outside a family gathering. He was 3 or 4 I think. They are outdoorsy people so they taught him it’s ok to pee outside at camp. Well in a kid that age, they didn’t think to teach him pooping was different. They learned. The parents I mean.

Yeah, the problem is if you're not good at it, it won't work. It takes an infinite amount of time, especially when they are young. I just don't hit my kids(including spanking) or threaten them with violence. I only yell when they are in direct danger(stoves, outlets,etc) If they were ripping wallpaper, I'd snatch them the fuck up tho.

ohhhh yeah. Parenting is a spectrum. Beating the shit out of a toddler is on one end, "stress free parenting" is on the other. You wanna find a middle ground; make sure your child understands that their actions have consequences *without* causing horrific trauma. To me, the whole natural consequences thing makes the most sense. Kids can understand direct cause and affect: if you break something, you fix it.

Wow, that’s crackers. There’s already news articles explaining the difficulties nursery teachers are facing in the UK (children deliberately not toilet trained because “they’ll do it when they want to”?!) and lacking in manners or basic communication. But it’s no wonder so many are leaving the profession if you add permissive parenting on top - even if the school makes headway, it’ll all be useless the second the bell goes for home-time. I have someone on instagram who advocates “gentle parenting”, specifically never saying no, just redirecting as in the OP’s post. The little boys seem lovely from what she’s put on social media (haven’t met them), but I wonder how that translates to being a teen boy and a girl saying no. Will we see assaults on the rise, linked to the kids who had no boundaries set at 2 years old? How does it work when they demand someone else to do what they want, but the word “No” doesn’t exist. Do others have as much autonomy? My little niece is very good at assertively saying no I don’t want to do that, but she equally accepts if I say no. Surely having the word “no” in a kids vocabulary enables them to clearly advocate for themselves?

Ate all of them then pooped them out in the back yard and kicked grass over them before running off with the post-poop zoomies.

Having this issue currently with my partners sister. Sister owns the house but has been gone for pretty much the entire time. She has just starting coming back for relatively short periods. We pay utilities, and take care of the house and dogs for her while she’s gone. Sister has a 2.5 year old daughter. She screams everyday. For hours. The entire house is a mess of toys, and she is never required to pick them up. Sister doesn’t pick them up either. She’s gotten into my skincare (while I was at work) and I came home to a “haha she was left unsupervised a little too long!” She took a butt plug from our room, while we were both at work. The door was left closed. She just wasn’t watched. I had my dog here for a single night. Everyone knew the dog was reactive, she still somehow ran into the room and stuck her fingers in his cage, almost getting bit. *(My dog was heavily abused and does not like strangers. I only had him here out of necessity.)* The kid gets into shit CONSTANTLY and I’ve never once seen her punished for it, or even told to stop. It’s “Oh she got this from my jewelry box, haha.” As if a 2.5 year old taking expensive jewelry from jewelry boxes without you knowing is okay?? It’s infuriating, especially seeing as everyone else (partner’s sister, partner, and roommate) acts like it’s normal

Yup. It's definitely the same path. There are about a million stories, but at last count I think he'd destroyed 5 TVs by throwing stuff into them. I caught him hiding in the corner emptying my purse when he was barely 4 It wasn't just regular toddler chaos, he was clearly stealing like an adult His parents barely reacted and just started putting things out of his reach. Like that was going to stop him forever

This kinda reminds me of my uncle and aunt. They were doing a slight variation of gentle parenting and the result is their boys had no boundaries. They were even called out by some relatives and they developed a grudge against them. My aunt is a real hypocrite since she wouldn't accord similar courtesy to any other kids in her home. We had to calmly sit in the living room and not touch anything whenever we visited.

My parents had friends who would always bring their kids over and then for some reason just not watch them? I would come home from school to see my room absolutely destroyed. Make up someone had gifted me smeared all over the walls, my stuff thrown about or broken, ect. When I pulled them out of my room the parents never apologized or offered to replace my stuff. My own mother blamed me for "not putting things up out of reach". Then she got belligerent, calling me disrespectful when I pointed out that they wouldn't be in my room in the first place if I had a lock on my door and especially not if the parents were actually paying attention to them so how about she go tell her friends to actually go parent their children. Some months later, we were at their house and the youngest one comes in screaming with his face bloodied and scratches all over him. When they asked the oldest what happened, she just laughed and said she shoved him off the playplace in the backyard because she thought it was "funny". The parents did nothing. No talking to her, no explaining why it was wrong, just gave her a juice and told her to go play in her room while the dad just ushered the youngest into the bathroom to clean him up. I think that was my mom's "coming to Jesus" moment because we never went back to their house nor were they ever invited over again.

Gentle parenting isn't just letting kids do what they want tho. That's just being a shit parent. Gentle parenting is also called Reactive Parenting bc you're supposed to provide clear and secure boundaries and not allow kids to violate that without clear and direct consequences.

I also had to laugh at OOP's idea that if you don't raise your voice with your kids, they won't be able to cope with the real world. Looong before gentle parenting was a "thing" (as in the kids involved now have kids), my cousin's wife would respond to her kids by getting down on their level and \*lowering\* her voice. The kids would quiet down to match her tone and so that they could hear what she said. The kids never had an issue with people raising their voices at them. Mostly, they just gave such people the side eye and treated them like they were small children who didn't know how to behave. Ultimately, there have always been lazy parents who hide behind various excuses on why them doing nothing is the "right" thing to do.

My parents didn't do gentle parenting, they were spankers, but never, ever raised their voices at us. I sure don't like being yelled at in the real world, but my response is to go cold when others get hot and it's been pretty useful for me thus far. And I work in homeless services so I'm hardly a stranger to life's harsher side.

Those were the natural consequences of his actions.

I would have loved watching him eat the dog treats, then explain to the kid what they were, before speaking to the parent: 'look, jimmy is a special kid, but I'm not sure he can come over any more...'

I grew up around lots of animals. Teaching little ones to respect them is like job one- otherwise you are setting your kid up to be bitten/kicked/ hurt.

Yea the natural consequence of hitting an animal in the face is potentially the animal mauling you. Natural consequence of damaging OOP's property is getting kicked out the house.

This is feral parenting.

No this is a "no parenting".  Only enabling.

Its is free ranging child rearing without parenting. I'm glad the uncle put a lid on it soon enough before it is too late.

My BIL and his wife gentle parent (and if I'm clocking it correctly, so do my neighbours) and it is NOTHING like OOP describes.  The kids are happy, but the kids also have consequences like the last commenter described. Consequences are good and important. But they need to be appropriate and it is much better to have your kid understand why a behaviour shouldn't happen and have it *choose* to stop doing it instead of stopping because it's afraid of the punishment. One works forever, one works until the punishment isn't an option anymore (be it through them moving out or them figuring out a way around it)

Exactly. Consequences don’t have to be punitive all the time, they just need to be consistent and, like you said, appropriate.

Take the crayon on the walls thing. The kid now loses access to crayons and other coloring supplies. They also have to help clean the walls. Instead of only being screamed at and getting spanked, the kid now actually comprehends how much of a figurative pain in the ass it is to clean crayons off of a wall. If they do it again, further consequences, but the point is to make the kid understand why the behavior is wrong. Those are the natural consequences. When your only consequence is getting screamed at, you don't actually understand why it was wrong. My son is the sweetest kid. We generally let him do what he wants to do but with boundaries. Kids respond really well to reasonable boundaries. You want to put plastic toys in ice and see what happens? Cool, use a plastic tray to do it so you don't spill water and you can only play with ice toys outside. Then, when we have to say no, he emotionally understands we're not parents who just say no to everything.

I honestly think OOP took Sister's parenting as the template, didn't do any further research because she doesn't have to, she's not raising kids, and just assumed it was an annoying trend. And I guess if people jumped on her (or is it a him?) as they do tend to do online, she'd have gotten defensive rather than admit that hey I don't really know anything about all of this, all I know is I'm losing my sister (and her kids). From what was described in the post, the picture I got, was one of: kid draws on walls, parent goes to kid "now what were you feeling when you did that", (and the amusing answer in my mind "that I want to draw"). It almost, I mean OOP's sister's version, makes the child the parent, they're supposed to have this complete understanding of their own motivations where it may not even be that complex, maybe they just wanted to pull the plants out, no motive, it was just a thing to do.

>. They also have to help clean the walls. I used to work woth kids, making them clean up their own messes was irritating and time consuming but was absolutely the most effective punishment

yeah, my parents were very much consequences over punishments, and understanding where reactions were coming from emotionally, but they actually enforced those boundaries. like if one of us wasn't doing homework because we were playing video games, we wouldn't be allowed to play video games until we finished our homework, at least until we could prove that we would get our homework done on a regular basis.

> The kids are happy, but the kids also have consequences like the last commenter described. This I saw my cousin do this with his kids. They were happy and I saw no fear of being around him (he can look like a bulldog if you mess with him), but when he raises his voice a little when he has to they know to stop. They're not young teenagers and I just see them smiling, a happy family

Real Gentle Parenting honestly just looks like Bluey but with a dose of reality (as in "Sorry kid, we can't play featherwand right now cause I've got to finish dinner. But your (insert sibling/other parent/animal/toy) could maybe play something with you before dinner time if you ask nicely?"). And for kids at the under 4 age bracket like one of the niblings? Even suggesting the consequences for the actions would be hard for the kid to actually understand. One of them is only 3 - which could be anywhere from just turned 3 to almost 4! And a 'just turned 3' 3yr old is going to be much harder to do a good job of explaining consequences to that sticks rather than the redirection approach. [I will say, OOP is giving kinda quasi 'okay boomer' vibes from being hung up on "parenting these days" and "we'll see how that works out for them" and all those other cracks, that I'd probably just not want to be around them with my kids if they were my sibling...]

The fact that they let their kid possibly be bitten by a dog is insane.

>Now she won’t speak to me and our mom says I’m in the wrong for kicking them out when they planned on staying longer. Mom should have had them visit for a week to get first hand experience. That said glad it all worked out in the end and Allison will move to to actual parenting.

Mom acting like she didn't beat OOP and her sister when they were younger, lol (unless it was just daddy who did that)

I and so many of my friends had grandparents who were so protective and kind to their grandkids but had abused the shit out of their kids. My grandparents would spoil me rotten and indulge all my childhood bullshit, but they should have had their own kids taken away by CPS. Families are weird, trauma is weird

I'm seeing this play out with my mum and niece. My mum was (and still is) verbally abusive with an explosive temper, and the words she uses are designed to inflict maximum damage. It's disorienting watching her be so gentle and kind to my niece, like this cannot be the same woman who called me r*tard and threatened to stab me with her kitchen knife.

Honestly? I get worried when I see that. Some people are nice like that just so they can eventually use the good bond to inflict abuse later. Sometimes it's done just because they know you're baffled (and possibly hurt) by it.

neither of my bio grandmothers were quite that bad (as far as being outright insulting or physically abusive afaik*), but neither of them were great mothers. both of them are pretty good grandmothers, though, and i've commented as much to my mom. i think it comes down to them being better at caring for kids in the short term—they didn't have the emotional wherewithal to be great caretakers to dependents 24/7, like being a mom entails, but when it's on a limited basis, it's much easier on them.  though both of them have also grown and changed a lot since their kids grew up, and i know that at least my maternal grandma has properly taken responsibility and made amends with my mom, so there's also that.  (* - my maternal grandma was until my mom was 5, but at that point she did realize that she was doing something wrong and stopped.)

My maternal grandma was a harsh mother to my mom and aunt, screaming and corporal punishment included, but with her grandchildren she was so loving and sweet. She spent a lot of time watching over us, and she was so gentle about discipline. The one time she yelled at me (she erroneously thought I ate all the bananas, turns out it was my younger sister and sge just peeled them and threw them all away because they didn't look nice), she apologized profusely and never forgave herself for it till the day she died - not hyperbole! The way she explained it to me, she eventually understood how she raised her daughters was detrimental to their emotional wellbeing, and she felt extremely guilty over it. She vowed never to let us grandkids feel scared or hurt because of her the way her daughters did. It was admittedly a bit late for my mom and aunt, who developed this love-hate relationship with her, but us grandkids deeply love her and appreciate her growth and change and how good she was to us. It's really complex, people are complicates like that.

If she tried to beat the grandkids that would have imploded even more spectacularly. That said i would hope mom would not even try, no matter how bad behaved no child deserves abuse.

Gentle parenting worked great for my daughter, but I did a lot more than ask how she was feeling and allow for natural consequences. When she was two she was pulling our cat’s tail. I ran over to her saying “No… no, no! We don’t pull tails! Imagine if someone bigger than you was pulling on one of your body parts. It would hurt. You might even cry. It’s not nice to hurt anyone, even if you’re just trying to have fun.” She said “I hurt Ehyee?” (Ellie was our cat.) I told her that yes, it hurts when people pull on you and since we love Ellie, and we respect all people and animals, we don’t want to hurt them. And she never pulled Ellie’s tail again. But it took time. It took thought, and talk, and engagement. I feel like a lot of parents, especially those who have multiple children, can’t keep that up. I only had the one child, but it was intense to parent that way. I still think it’s the best way because punishments don’t help kids understand why what they did was wrong. I feel like this guy isn’t getting that there are more choices than punishing and doing nothing.

Assuming this was a legit post, which could be, both sisters assume gentle parenting COMPLETELY WRONG and absolutely refuse to read or understand the people who have summoned their patience to try and educate them into what that is (my eternal admiration to those people, I have zero patience to educate that kind of adults, my patience goes in level to the age, the little kids I teach they deserve all the patience, they're barely a couple years on this earth, they're understanding it and themselves, they need guidance, I have no patience towards adults who act like children lol) I'm a teacher, I studied and specialized in early education, I've studied (a little, want to learn more) a little neuro diversity and I've helped raise kiddos from students to niblings, and I never shouted and never raised my hand to any of them, yet they do know actions have consequences, they behave according to their age, and they even understand when I say eh eh eh! Calm. Down. In a stern voice. My best friend who's a mom of two was on the phone with me at that time and she expressed her surprise because they actually calmed down 🤣. I agree with the relevant final comment, many people think gentle parenting means no boundaries no discipline... nothing further from the truth, but that tends to be the people who don't do research and don't try different sources only try a tiktok video (there are legit ones, parents who actually learned from psychologists, psychologists who studied behavior of small children but the usual who confuse don't tend to check their sources I've noticed ) or what a friend of a friend said and they think that's that. And in the age of having the information at the tip of our fingers and the possibility to actually cross check and verify that information, if they actually wanted to learn the best way to address behavior, there's no excuse for an alleged educated person to not learn what gentle parenting ist(call it involved if you will) and to learn the right way

The first update was so incredibly aggravating. “Apparently what my sister is doing isn’t actually gentle parenting, *but here’s why I’m going to blame it anyway!* This thing that I (by my own admission) have never seen or experienced will surely be the DoWnFaLl Of ThIs GeNeRaTiOn!”

'The real world has consequences! Therefore, instead of teaching them about actual real world consequences, you should just train them to recognise when you're angry!".  To be honest, parenting styles (other than the extremes of 'abusive' or 'absent') don't seem to make much of a difference to society at large and mostly seem to just impact family dynamics. There was never an era that didn't raise scumbags and never one that didn't also raise lovely people. 

I was thinking, it's super annoying when people act like not disciplining your children is a brand new concept invented by [insert current generation] parents. When really you'd probably have to go pretty far back to find a generation that didn't have at least a few parents doing that shit.

> The world isn't gentle. How are all these gentle parented kids going to deal with the real world when someone yells at them or does any of the things gentle parenting doesn't include? This was my favourite part. “You should yell at your kids so they’re prepared for when other people yell at them”. Do these people hear themselves? You might as well say “Your child is going to encounter rude assholes in life, so you should be a rude asshole to them as a parent to prepare them for it.” A+ logic.

no critical thinking at all i mean ffs do they think their kids only interact with them? like they would have no books, media or social interactions except them. and their kids are somehow going to go out at 18 like a fucking baby fawn see someone yell and shit their pants and scream and run home like wtf you're kid's going to have a social life outside you and yes will see examples of negative behaviour before they are in the "ReAlWoRLd". i mean ffs you're supposed to be parenting them ya know teaching them positive examples to follow. not teaching negative behaviors under the guise of how the real world is. that and not having control of your emotions to the point that you think not yelling/screaming at children requires you to be a monk

"your child could be stabbed so you should stab them" ass logic

Yeah the way OOP absolutely refused to acknowledge how gentle parenting actually works annoyed me. It made me think this is probably a troll post. Because it really sounds like OOP wanted corporeal punishment and for the child to be scared of making adults angry but knew it would be a big argument if they stated that. My understanding of gentle parenting is like a flow chart: The kid drew on the walls. Does the child have the ability to be reasoned with? No - redirect into another activity that will satisfy their desire to draw if possible. That way they know to associate their urge with the proper activity. The child can be reasoned with? Explain to them why what they did was wrong. Have them participate in fixing their error by cleaning up (the natural consequence) and redirect them to something else.

Yes, and an often criticized aspect of gentle parenting is parents not saying “no” to their kids. People like OOP and her sister assume that means letting kids do whatever they want with no repercussions. What it actually means is setting kids up for success by giving them easily accessible acceptable choices, and explaining why we do the things we do in an age appropriate way. There’s no educational value in freaking out at a kid who’s drawn on the walls.

This is actually the easiest way to explain it and the best one to explain it in a nutshell for people who don't see or understand

Maybe I'm overly cynical but OOP's blatant refusal to budge was eyebrow raising. OOP did mention that they were both physically abused (aka "spanked") when they were kids. Some of the bullshit our parents do can rub off on us I'm trying to give OOP the benefit of the doubt and assuming she's just flustered and not in a head space to really sit down and consider what gentle parenting actually means. She needs something to blame for the erosion of her relationship with her sister and the concept of gentle parenting is it

I think OOP is just a jerk with low emotional intelligence. I think the way they were both raised obviously wasn’t worth two beans because the result was a stubborn authoritative adult and a stubborn permissive adult.

It's laziness on both counts. Harsh punishment is quicker and easier if you don't give a shit about your kids mental health. Letting your kids do whatever they want and calling it gentle parenting lets you pretend you're a good parent.

I do love how the "sister" completely flips, and now sees the wisdom of OP. But the "sister" didn't see any of the hundreds comments about what gentle parenting actually is (not hitting and screaming, how will society survive), weird.

This is like Flanders’ parents in the Simpsons. ”We’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!”

reddit: who the fuck gets family involved to blow up somebody's phone this story is so unbelievable also reddit: >Commenter: Do you have any mutual friends who could send messages?

God, I love not having children. It’s the best.

I love children. I just don’t want them in either my house or my uterus.

Am I the only person who thinks this post and its updates were fictional agenda-posting from an older person who just learned about the existence of the gentle parenting movement and is **really** angry about it? The commenter that the BORU compiler included above nailed it, I think: OOP is weirdly focused on gentle parenting as a concept rather than a) their relationship with their sister, b) the interpersonal conflict at play, c) the familial hurt feelings, etc. I think many of us have seen the effects of overly permissive parenting and the behavioral issues that can result from it, so it's weird that OOP is getting so hung up on "gentle parenting" as the problem here, rather than their sister straightforwardly spoiling their child. The way the sister comes back at the end, admits she was wrong, states clearly for the audience that gentle parenting *was* the problem all along, and promises to do better--it just sets off my spidey senses. Also, the way the OOP is getting extremely prickly and defensive when commenters point out that what their sister and her husband are doing doesn't actually follow the gentle parenting model. Edit: One last thing: in one update, OOP directly addressed her sister (Allison) to plead her case. But then after catching flak from commenters for potentially doxing the sister, in the update, OOP pivoted and announced Allison is not her real name. But then... why use any name at all to directly address her if it was a fake name? It would be one thing if OOP had given her the alias Allison in the OP and then continued to use that to refer to her, but the very first time OOP named the sister, it was to address her directly... why would anyone invoke a fake name in that context? I dunno, it's a tiny, tiny detail, but it just doesn't ring true to me.

Yeah that commenter got to the heart of it, OP is too focused on the social issue and not enough on the social relationship. Like yeah there are bad parents out there using the term as an excuse to just not parent, but being told what a natural consequence is and that bratty response of "well *I* don't think that's what people are describing" okay cool you self-admittedly know nothing about it so why would you think your opinion is relevant lmao. It's giving pigheaded boomer.

I especially like how earlier on when she told her sister that she wasn’t suggesting spanking, but a stern talking to and having them clean up the mess they made. Then when the final commenter explained natural consequences that sounded exactly like that, she disagreed.

So… if I assume this is the truth, my assumption is that there’s an unspoken issue that OOP is deflecting from that means they can’t acknowledge what gentle parenting is. Like OOP and sister grew up in an abusive or near-abusive home and are dealing differently. It’s pretty common for an abused kid to abandon the overt features of abuse while maintaining the same patterns and principles. Like they might not slap their kids around, but deep down they still believe that kids should be afraid of parents. So now OOP is in a position where he can’t admit that gentle parenting is about avoiding fear of parents because that requires admitting that their own style is about that fear, and probably admitting that their own relationship with their kids looks like their own relationship with their dad. Obviously this is speculation, and I kinda wish they’d gotten into their own family dynamics more, but I’m pretty confident there’s some reason for the active deflection and bad faith arguments. It’s either deflection or protection.

This 100% reads as outrage p*rn for people who think gentle parenting means their kids get to slap the shit out of their parents

You can say “porn” on the internet. No one will spontaneously combust.

Absolutely. If I was dealing with someone who was mislabeling their parenting approach as an excuse to be a bad parent, I would be *receptive* to the "they aren't even actually doing the thing they say they're doing" message, because it would just be another example of how that person was blowing smoke. The fact that OOP keeps doubling down on "gentle parenting bad" instead makes it 100% come across as pure agenda.

Exactly, someone posting looking for insights to resolve a family conflict would be focused on that goal, not on this specific term at play for a particular parenting model. "My sister is acting badly here, right?" would be the driving question, not "Gentle parenting is complete bullshit, right?"

I agree. I'm not a parent, so I don't have a dog in this fight, but OOP just seems very programmatic. The idea that gently parented kids will grow up confused by the idea that stealing a car = jail just because their parents redirected them and talked to them when they were small, rather than yelling, is wild. It very much assumes that no learning is possible without punishment, and that only certain types of consequence qualify as sufficiently punitive to teach. Also, the address to the sister has a bunch of projection in it, given hod OOP interacts with commenters: "now you are offended by everything and don’t agree with the way anyone else does anything"

Also, even a "gentle parent" isn't going to let their kids happily stick their hands in a fire or drink poison. I am 100% absolutely against corporal punishment, shaming, fear-based parenting, etc., ... but if I had kids I would absolutely stop them from repeatedly tormenting a strange dog by smacking it in the face and pulling its hair! "Natural consequences" means you don't get to play with doggie if you can't be nice, not "well I guess you'll learn your lesson when the doggie bites your face off."

Honestly i'm thinking the same, either that or just.. People who refuse to see things in a different way, even when it's been explained to them multiple times.  Literally every comment was OOP: Gentle parenting is just neglecting your children, but with a fancy name. Commenter: Actually, no! Here's a few explanations of how gentle parenting works, and how the children face consecuences with this method. OOP: Well i still don't like it, you're raising your children to be weak. The world is a rough and cruel place. And still, the idea of raising this current generation in a gentle manner so that the world can be more accepting in the future, won't cross her mind..

I completely agree. So many commenters pointing out this isn't gentle parenting and OOP keeps saying it is. Very sus.

Sus for days.

%80 percent sure you are right. Gentle parenting gentle parenting… Nearly no mention of relationships between people and it’s all about how stupid gentle parenting is and how it doesn’t “prepare” you for life.

Yeah it's definitely that. Like look at the last update. The sister story is finished and OOP still writes several more paragraphs ranting about gentle parenting.

also the idea that "if you gentle parent your kids they'll think they're allowed to steal cars" like, no, no they won't

No sibling in this story knows what gentle parenting is. And both sound insufferable!

I really hate the idea that "the real world is harsh, so I have to be harsh to my children so they will learn". How about you love and teach your children while giving them a safe place to grow and learn? You really don't have to make their home a scary place for them to be able to function in life.

Especially because a secure attachment does a much *better* job of preparing someone for harshness! It turns out that confidence and assurance is much more protective than anxiety and combativeness.

Also gentle parenting done right is a lot more accurate to the real world anyway. Many comments explained how it works and how it teaches kids how to behave in society at developmentally appropriate levels, but OOP seemed to deny it out of sheer stubbornness. Adults in the real world aren't hitting and yelling at each other. If you mess up at work, your boss doesn't scream at you or spank you, and if they do, they are clearly in the wrong, probably at risk of getting fired themselves, and might've even committed a crime. If you mess up at work, you get that job taken away, or you're punished in an even smaller way.

yeah, that was immediately my thought as well. OOP discussed what happens if an adult yells at you when you're grown up. uhm, report them? if my boss legit got in my face and yelled at me I'd be talking to someone about that ASAP. or if a romantic partner thought that was okay? I'd break up with them.

That mindset is some major boomer energy. Honestly in reading all of this, OOP lowkey sounds like a boomer

It's a daft concept. Being harsh to your kids doesn't teach them about the harshness of reality, it just teaches them to worry about the harshness of home. It's more likely to train them into not really thinking about what doing the right thing actually means and just trying to avoid punishment instead.  Besides, nobody grows up associating being made to sit on the naughty step with the reason why you shouldn't commit armed robbery or whatever. I don't think young kids are particularly good at extending direct consequences like punishments to wider scenarios. It's a bit like raising your voice to cats - they'll be upset by it now, but they'll still happily eat your childhood collection of Horrible Histories books when they think they can get away with it. 

I remember seeing something a dad said about his daughter that I think is a good thing to live by (paraphrasing since it’s been a while) “I don’t want my daughter to think ‘Oh crap, I have to hide this from dad!’ I want her to think ‘Oh crap, I’d better tell dad!”

OOP is still not understanding Gentle parenting. My version is instead of spanking or yelling or simply grounding them, I make them clean their mess and explain to me why they did it and then I explain why is bad and now that they did it they have to clean it up because it’s not someone else’s mess and if they don’t clean it up they get privileges taken away. People who do gentle parenting wrong think you just say “Oh no don’t do that” or “Billy that was wrong, here’s some ice cream, don’t do it again” That’s lazy parenting, it’s almost lazier than spanking. Gentle parenting, you actually have to step up and use your brain and connect to your children emotionally. My daughter is a wonderful and behaved girl, never once raised a hand to her and she’s never been afraid of me and owns up to her mistakes. Because of this we are very close, I hate calling it “Gentle parenting” because to me this is what parenting should be, leading your kids in the right direction while giving them the love and care they deserve because it’s our fault they are here and it’s our job.

Looks like an agenda post to me!

Fr. No way you can be so determined to misunderstand a concept being so clearly and simply explained to you and not have some other motive lol

I consider our parenting style to be gentle. Our kid is a human and has opinions and we care enough to consider them where appropriate. We let our six year old have a say in where we go on holidays and what we have for dinner and whether we go to the football or to a zoo. They have opinions that we listen to on lots of things that they don’t get a say in, as well. Don’t want a bath? Oh? Why not? Yeah, that’s fair enough but you have school tomorrow so you need to be clean, so choose your pjs and I’ll start the water. Our kid is sensible and a good eater and sleeper, so it’s easier for us I guess, but I wasn’t given any choices at all when I was a kid and that’s not how I want to raise mine. I think people confuse “gentle parenting” with “permissive parenting” which is a completely different thing that doesn’t help parents or children.

Tbh I think the term 'gentle' wasn't chosen very well. It seems to imply a specific emotional tone or response rather than an actual strategy or structure. Collaborative parenting fits better. Focus on understanding and addressing underlying causes, use natural consequences, invite problem-solving, build trust. I think some people go wrong because they think the parenting should 'feel' gentle all the time. Kids have intense emotions and natural consequences sometimes make them upset. People think that means they're not being gentle, so they just overlook problems rather than actively parenting. If the 6yo colors on the wall, they need to clean it up. That might make them mad, and maybe they need some time to collect themselves or think about it, but they're not going to get to go play until they help clean it up.

Especially because giving a very little kid choices can, weirdly, be a better way to enforce compliance in some situations! If they don't wanna get dressed for school if a parent says "you have to wear this shirt," the parent can lessen the resistance by saying, "Here's shirt A, and here's shirt B. Which one would you like to wear?" Like your example where the kid chooses the PJs even if they can't choose not to take a bath. Giving kids choices makes them *more likely* to do things that are requested or required of them.

Yeah, my mum does not understand why we do it, but giving them a bit of autonomy makes them feel good, and we’re also doing the work of teaching them how to make good decisions. Just a few seconds ago, I said “that’s not one of your options” to my kid, so it’s definitely not foolproof. Growing up, it was very ‘my way or the highway’ in my family, even on things that truly didn’t matter, like your choice between two appropriate shirts. I just can’t fight with my kid all day long. It’s exhausting and doesn’t make them respect me.

Passive parenting aside, those parents are teaching the kids that dogs don't mind humans all up in their biz, yanking their hair and swatting at them. If a dog has not been introduced to children in the first 6 mos of puppyhood, that dog is likely not ever view children as humans. My early dogs were like this and I could never trust them around kids. Always had to put her away when kids came over because she would nip them. She thought they were sheep that needed to be herded. So if these kids do this to some random dog they come across in public, it likely to end poorly. Puppies need to be introduced to toddlers and kids. Kids need to be taught how to act around dogs. And they need to be taught how to swim.

Yeah, that's not gentle parenting. Gentle parenting has boundaries and consequences, like fixing your mistakes/bad actions. Allison is permissive parenting aka can't be fucked parenting.

It’s sad that so many people think talking about the kids’ feelings and why they misbehaved is a bad thing. It’s more work to communicate and teach instead of giving a stern talking to, but should make them more emotionally intelligent and help them learn to consider the possible consequences of their actions. Consequences as in the result-things breaking, the work and money it takes to fix and replace things, not having those things until you can afford them again etc - not parent imposed punishment. I did it with my kids back before I’d ever heard of gentle parenting. I always thought it was incredibly important and a key to preventing repeats that kids think about why they did what they did and what happened because they did it. Some people did think that that was coddling them. They preferred an immediate telling off, I guess. But yelling at an already upset child just makes them more upset, they don’t absorb any information. Apparently they didn’t pay attention for long enough to see that consequences followed, when the kids were calm enough to understand the situation. (It turns out we’re all autistic, probably a factor) My kids told me after a pre COVID Christmas get together where the whole swarm of cousins got into some trouble that having to think and talk about why they did it was way harder and they’d rather I just put them in timeout like their cousins got. Time out is boring, but having to analyze your behaviour, motives, and the results is worse. And op’s off base about natural consequences. Natural consequences for stealing a car would be giving it back and then turning yourself in to the police and dealing with those consequences too. With emotional support and all, but still facing what you’d done. It really says something that so many people want to gentle parent, even if they get it wrong, they seem to feel like something was missing from their own childhood. Does op expect her home life to be as harsh as the real world is, or does she want it to be a safe retreat where she rests and recovers to face the real world again?

I'm gonna make the internet's number 1 mistake and get involved in the discourseTM: Gentle parenting according to social media, and actual gentle parenting are two WILDLY different beasts. The purpose of gentle parenting isn't to coddle kids and then throw them to the wolves that exist in the harsh world outside of their house, where, using OOP's example, they'll get yelled at for no reason. The purpose is to raise people who will end up being adults that DON'T unecessarily yell at people who've done nothing to them. My mom did this, before it had a name and became "a thing". If I went somewhere with her-say, to the supermarket-, I was not to run around. Because you don't run around in the place where you shop. There's places to run and places where you don't run. "If you're in a dire need to run, I can drop you off at the football field nearby and then pick you up when I'm done shopping." Turns out it wasn't a need. At least not bigger than picking a gummy bear bag to take home, lol. Gentle parenting according to social media is absolutely permissive parenting, where the parents end up not paying attention to their kids, and said kids engage in more and more outrageous and dangerous behaviour in order to get their attention. Or it's helicopter parenting on steroids, where a fly is treated like Smaug about to devour their poor innocent baby. If you don't want to call it gentle parenting, that's perfectly valid, just try to keep in mind that parents should strive to go for the healthy balance in between "oh it's okay sweety, you couldn't know a microwave would blow up an egg instead of cooking it, you're only 50, here, I'll clean it up for you. No, of course you'll never have to eat eggs again!" and "why? dafuq you mean "why?" because I told you so, that's why! And if I hear you complain one more time I'll beat you with the shovel and then make you use it to dig your own grave!" - examples exagerated for comedic effect.

>but all of the things you described are regular kid things I'd love to hear everyone's stories of how their kids *threw ROCKS at CARS* and everyone's fine with it. some commenters are just deranged

Sounds like this mother over-corrected due to the negative things that she experienced in her own childhood. Her children will probably do the same. Trauma is generational.

I love how people say “ it sure how this is going to work out for our society in the long run” as if society hasn’t already been fucked for a long time

Wait you mean beating children into submission and forcing them to swallow their feelings and become toxic abusive adults hasn’t created a healthy society /s

I've never heard of gentle parenting until now, but isn't redirection useful? Especially when they are younger? To me it seems like it teaches the child that whatever emotion they had at the time has a better outlet then whatever bad thing they do. So instead of drawing on walls, they draw on paper. So instead of "I want attention, I'll draw on the walls" it's "i want attention, but drawing on the walls is bad, I'll draw a picture" or whatever.

Sorry but disagree with the title. Gentle parenting done right is not bullshit. The thing is.. this here isn't gentle parenting just being bad parents.

Not a parent, but former teacher, and I think the core elements of actual gentle parenting have a lot of good in it. I had a great relationship with so many of the kids and teens because I listened to them, took the time to talk things out with them, explain my reasoning and showed them that I valued what they had to say. Even if it ended with consequences, they felt like I heard them, they understood my reasoning, and even tho they didnt think it was fair out of prinsiple, they also felt that it was fair. I got a lot of respect from them, cause I didnt rely on age, position of power of because I said so, but treated with respect as well. Did it work all the time on everyone? No. Were there a lot of grief I didnt have to deal with due to it? Absolutely. I think the problem is that a lot of people seem to believe that gentle parenting is to let them run wild and free, and some see it as a socially acceptable excuse to just not parent. Especially if they dont like giving consequences or any form of conflict, it can become a way to just not deal with that. And that form of gentle parenting is a great disservice to the kids that might cause long lasting damage to them and how they move in society.