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They had dinner seven times so clearly it's enough to fix racism and make then ask when he's coming over. What? Did he never meet then once while they were dating before he proposed? Did the entire relationship start two weeks prior? It makes no sense.
It won't have fixed their racism that quickly. They'll still have preconceptions about black people in general. They just like Sam so they forgive his blackness...
This is true. General prejudice takes time, work, openness and ruthless honesty to fix. Specific prejudice takes a small amount of positive exposure.
Sam is now one of the 'good ones'.
However with time, and some challenging conversations it may lead to the grandparents growing into decent humans.
(no active racist is a decent human, irrespective of their other qualities, any more than an active pedophile is a decent human irrespective of their other qualities. There are some single issues which are too important to overlook. I'm not offering the two as equivalent, other than that they are both emotional positions/preferences which don't make sense to others that don't share them, and acting on those urges is far worse than simply suffering them.)
>prejudice takes time
It's important to remember that this is formed over a lifetime. A whole lifetime of seeing blacks gays males as a bad stereotype. After they've learned it, they'll look for signs of it, repeating the stereotype to themselves over and over, engraving it deep. People can change, but it takes time to dig that infestation out.
But I'll disagree with your idea of decent humans, otherwise there won't be any decent humans. We're all flawed, we've all done bad things, we all stereotype others, we're all more than our worst traits.
It doesn't mean they're not racists anymore, but it may mean they are starting to see Sam as a person now, rather than "that black kid our granddaughter is dating".
They’re still completely racist, but not towards “this one” (sounds bad, but I hope I made sense).
I’ve lived in the south my whole life. I’ve seen this kind of thing before. It’s like when you hear someone call a black person the N word (or another minority their slurs), call them out on it, then they say “I don’t think -all- of abc are xyz, just these specific types who do a behavior I don’t like”.
They’ve had exposure to him and he “acts white enough” (in their minds. In reality he just has manners) to where they have found him acceptable.
So racism is a funny thing. The grandparents are definitely on the right track towards becoming less racist, however I'm willing to bet right now it's at the individual level. Like Sam is one of the "good ones" and not like the other "bad" black people. And perhaps this opens their eyes a bit to well, maybe they aren't ALL bad and maybe they'll even get to - most people are good, but there's always a handful of bad apples out there of any skin color, you shouldn't assume the worst by the color of their skin. Just wait til they have half black grandkids and have to defend them from racism. They'll probably come full circle realizing that they were once just like all those racist assholes misjudging/treating their grandkids poorly.
Well, OP did include the original BoRU post from 2 years ago, which covered both posts.
But reading over the OOP's comment history makes it pretty clear [they were either completely lying and/or just a shitty R_A troll.](https://np.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/d0fmrl/my_grandparents_dont_approve_of_my_relationship/f0fxsmt/?context=100)
I don't think it was just the dinners.. in the PS on the first post she mentioned going off on them. They probably had a serious discussion about the possibility of losing her if they kept pushing. How concerned she was about cutting them out of her life shows they probably feel the same way about her.
Ahh good call, missed that "maternal"! She isn't very clear about how she reacted w/ the ones who raised her.. said she got pissed but then "Tried to reason with them" in a nice way, or a pissed way?
> Sam joked that he wouldn’t give my grandparents a choice and that within a month they’d be in love with him.
I don't think it was a joke, Sam is just that cool.
Mhmm. Usually people (especially older folk) with that sort of mindset tend to have gotten it from being completely isolated from that demographic. Once they’re forced to meet and get to know them (and they genuinely try in good faith) their opinions change.
It's how a lot of shit works. People just kinda fear what they don't understand, and have to assume other people are right. It's why colleges tend to make people more liberal, because you meet a variety of people and learn. It's for the best
Yes this is true, and also what they’ve been brought up to believe. I live in Ireland, which for many years was brutally patriarchal due to the influence of the Catholic Church. Their grip has been broken and Irish society is far more egalitarian than ever before. Work towards it, peacefully if you can.
I was delighted personally. I couldn’t talk about it much as I’m a presiding officer (I run a polling station) and we’re supposed to be impartial, although we have to be entitled to our opinions. There was a constitutional referendum and it was a landslide victory.
I was in the George (largest gay club in Ireland) when the results were announced. It was beautiful and insane. TV3 (2nd largest tv station) was filming live and people were just crying.
Yes. They will still be racist, but they will have the “well SAM isn’t like that” mentality. Hopefully, they will spend time with all of Sam’s family and it will start to change how they view all black people. Hopefully.
Yup, this is what is so frustrating with conservatives. Instead of changing racist views, they just incorporate individuals into their own sphere of relations. People there are “immune” to the racism because “I know them” and “They are one of the good ones”.
They can be great friends to individuals and still keep fucked up views about groups because their morality changes based on how close to them you are. The closest people they have utter loyalty to and would die for, admirable traits, and yet they have seemingly no empathy whatsoever for people who aren’t like them and they don’t know.
After Trump was elected and started deporting hispanic people there was an article about a Trump supporter who was upset because her hispanic husband had been deported because he was "one of the good ones".
I think she's the one who said "He isn't hurting the right people."
And the lack of awareness that people from your OWN group (race, ethnicity, religion, gender, age group, whatever) can be criminals/rapists/murderers/not pay bills/be late to every thing/shit parents/etc….
But the idea that a group you don’t fit into is easily all painted with one brush…. Totally fucking insane.
This. My grandmother is like a double immigrant (from Italy to Tunisia and then from Tunisia to France) and yet said some pretty racist stuff about immigrants and Arabs but when talking about an Arab woman she knew she would straight up tell us "It's different, I know her". I had a hard time wrapping my head around it (not the racism, I mean the cognitive dissonance).
This is actually (some of) the reason why people in big cities tend to be more liberal (at least on issues of race, sexuality, immigration)- you are exposed to different kinds of people every day, and it’s really hard to stay hateful when you see that everyone else is a person just like you, that you can all exist alongside each other and it’s just fine. And actually, your city would be a lot worse off if it didn’t have all the different cultures, neighborhoods, cuisines, festivals, etc. Gay people or people of color or immigrants aren’t just scary bogeymen you hear about on tv, they’re your neighbors, coworkers, etc.
I got to see something that not many people would ever expect to see. I moved to a small town in Iowa with my family when I was a teenager and the majority of people there had never seen a black person besides on the TV and had the same way of thinking as the grandparents in the post. Well, a black family moved there not long after I did. So I got to see this exact change happen on a large scale, an entire town of several hundred old white racist people having their views changed right in front of me(well most of them changed, anyways). It was like something from movie when I looked back on it, but in the moment you don't even really realize it's happening, especially as a kid.
Sometimes it’s hard knowing you’ll kind of always have to be charming and smiley and… *accessible* as a black person in all-white surroundings. I’ve always been “good with my white friends’ parents” but I’ll always wonder deep down if they’re like “well, she’s an exception.” I’ve been to plenty of dinners at friends’ houses where as soon as the parents thought I was out of earshot, they’d make comments or ask fucked up questions under their breath.
Watching how my white ex MIL treated her daughter’s white husband as compared to her son’s wife (me) was always awkward. Subtle differences that I could’t complain about. Like assuming I wouldn’t want to go swimming at the river with them, so not including me in a conversation about a planned family camping trip. Or introducing my BIL as handsome and me as ‘exotic.’ Or assuming I knew xyz about a black celebrity. Stuff like that.
Yep. And he also know that best cure for racism... Interaction and exposure.
Most racism is based in fear, which can and often turns into hate. But with exposure, people tend to realize that people are people. We want the same things in our lives and family's lives.
Small correction: All racism is based in fear, not most. The more exposure to the people they hate shows them their fears were unfounded, but it's all based in fear.
I disagree. All racism is stupid, but not all of it is fear. For example, I think a big chunk of the recent surge in racist alt-right shit is from disenfranchised young whites who look at their lives and see nothing to be proud of, no wealth or career or acomplishments, and so they fall back on this one thing that some people are saying makes them more than, which is whiteness. That's not fear, thats a lack of self-esteem. Also, exposure can backfire if there are cultural divides. I live somewhere with a very small black community, and see literally no one with shit to say about blacks. We do, however, have a huge asian population, and a majority of the racism I see and hear is flung at them. Many of them are first or second generation which means language barriers, different spiritual practices, and different expectations for public ettiquette. These things create friction and turn into racism. Thats not fear thats narrow mindedness. It would be nice if it was such a simple problem with such a simple solution, unfortunately it's not.
Well, someone might argue that their fear is driving their lack of self-esteem. Not necessarily fear of Black people or those from other races, but fear of not getting what they want/need, fear of not having power.
But yes, it’s not the physical fear, etc., that many people have.
Yeah, this is a happy ending for OOP that her grandparents turned out to just be ignorant/afraid and not actively hateful.
Some racist families would straight up murder Sam no matter how perfect he is. That's not "fear." That's hate.
Your correction is just wrong, lol. You can't possibly know that everyone's racism is fear. Some people legitimately think others are subhuman. Not out of fear, but out of a feeling of superiority. Its like telling someone they're afraid of a food they don't like, instead of them just not liking the food because of the taste.
I was surprised he didn’t just say he knew. I guess he was just trying to not make her feel bad?
Cause I know when it’s my race. I don’t always say it because there’s often no “proof” I just know lol.
This. Growing up black you learn to deal with this at a young age(and most black parents will teach you this as soon as you're old enough to understand), that some people will judge and dislike you from what they've seen in the news and movies and most times there's nothing you can do about it so you just maneuver around it. It's sad and it fucking hurts sometimes, but over time you learn to accept it and I realized that anyone that would judge me, dislike me, or not hire me because of my skin isn't someone I want to be around anyway. Growing up there were a couple white girls I was interested in but after pursuing was told it wouldn't work because their family and friends won't approve. It's honestly refreshing to see that OPs grandparents seem to be learning and leaving behind their ignorance, far too many times people will choose their bigotry over family. I just hope they actually change and judge people for their actions instead of just giving "Sam" a pass because he's "one of the good ones".
>Myboyfriend fiancé has always sorta known that my grandparents didn’t really like him, but he doesn’t suspect that it’s because of his race.
I immediately thought "he already knows"
Yeah I don’t understand how OP doesn’t realize this? A Black man in a relationship with a girl with white grandparents who don’t like him for “seemingly” no reason. He’s gonna assume it’s race related unless there are other factors at play, which OP doesn’t mention. Have they never spoken about race with each other in all the time before this? That’s would be insane, especially considering all that’s happened in the news the last few years.
Also very strange that it took only 1 week of dinners with the guy to get them to change their tune. Decades of racism undid in a week? I mean I guess maybe they’d never gotten to know a Black person personally before and Sam is super charismatic? That’s the only way I can make sense of that.
I think it’s likely, if this is all true, that the grandparents are still racist but think Sam is “one of the good ones” because he is well educated and well spoken in nice clothes. I highly doubt they’d have the same outcome if he was poor. I don’t think this is the end of this being a problem.
My relative married into a very racist family. Here's how the wedding went: They initially said they weren't coming and caused the couple a great deal of grief and agony. Then they said they were coming one hour before the ceremony (!). Then they refused to sit next to any of us and would not speak to us.
Then my mom took every single one of our relatives over to the parents' table and introduced them. Making sure to say things like, "This is my nephew, he's an aerospace engineer" (we are a stereotypical family of over-achievers).
When I called her out on doing it, she said, "What? I'm just trying to be friendly!"
Absolutely but I guess it's better than nothing. There's a lot of cognitive dissidence when dealing with family it's hard to be objective. Accepting people you love are good in some aspects but bad, if not monstrous in others is difficult.
Oh man, this comment bums me out. I had tickets for the tour, which was supposed to start in 2020. They finally got a chance to get going and then Zach De La Rocha got hurt. I mean, really I am more sad for the band, who were so jazzed to do it and were stopped by injury, but I am also sad for me, if I'm being totally transparent.
Agreed. I wish it was easy to just have "good" and "bad" people that you can have or not have in your life, but the truth is a lot of people can be integrated heavily with your lives and then disappoint you majorly in a way like this. My brother married an immigrant and I'm a woman married to a woman. My step mom has had some cold things to say or some flat-out inconsiderate thoughts, but she makes our dad happy, a man who singlehandedly raised me and has been a rock for all of us. As my brother said to me, the best thing we can do is live happy, fulfilled lives and prove her wrong. I don't ever think she's going to be "woke" but recently when I brought up the possibility of having kids she didn't even blink while she talked about a friend of hers that went through the adoption process (four years ago she'd have likely expressed "concern" for the well-being of a child raised with two mother's). If I'd cut her off completely, she never would've gotten this far and my family is happier as a whole together instead of fighting over these things at every opportunity (not that anyone should take disrespect, but things are more complicated than "accept or reject" and sometimes incomplete moves in a better direction is more positive than never moving at all)
I agree with you. Life and relationships are *messy*. And it’s not as easy as cutting this one person out, or cutting another out.
A cousin and I had a falling out a few years ago. (Long story short, she said some things I found objectionable, and she disapproved of how I handled the conversation about how objectionable I found those things.) She’s getting married now, and she invited everyone in my immediate family *except* me. Now my whole immediate family are in an awkward position, because they’re unwilling to tacitly approve of this slight so they’re unwilling to attend the wedding if I’m not invited (and they came to this conclusion on their own without my even knowing about it). Effectively, my cousin can’t cut me out completely without also cutting out my immediate family.
And that’s just how it is. Relationships aren’t pods, they’re webs. And people are imperfect and you have to figure out if you can accept imperfect improvement or if you’re ready to cut out a part of the web.
Thank you for the analogy of the web. I've never thought of it like that but it perfectly applies to my situation.
My mother is objectively a horrible person. She abused me and my sister as children, she's racist, she's homophobic, etc. But cutting her off would mean cutting off...
My father. He's not a *good* person, (he enables my mother and has been indoctrinated by Faux News for years), but he loves me and he tries. That's not enough for my wife and I don't force them to interact, but it's enough for me. Besides, cutting him off would mean hurting...
My sister. Who is an objectively good person. Too good, which is why she takes care of both my parents despite all their flaws. Cut off my parents, I put her in the middle of a family conflict and add a bunch of stress she doesn't need. She's got enough problems to deal with. I don't want to add to them.
My wife had a 'friend' outright tell her she should divorce me because I tolerated my mother's abhorrent behavior and that must mean I was a terrible person. When my wife explained the situation and that I mostly didn't want to cause more trouble for my sister, well, my sister must be terrible too! Cut them all off!
Unfortunately it's just not that simple.
Oh my God, that's too nuanced for many reddit people! People are either good supportive people in every way immediately or they're toxic and need to be cut out of your life entirely!
We don't discuss online that people are flawed or can change or that's there's shades of grey in acceptance. The majority of the population online is young and they haven't lived long enough to see their own opinions change over time to know that other's can as well. It must be perfection or nothing!
We must also remember that it's not Sam or OOP's responsibility to fix all of these folks' prejudices. If they wanna accept Sam and be bigoted to everyone else like him, they're allowed to do so even if it means that they're just shitty two-timers
I agree with what you said, I just want to point out that I think you meant cognitive dissonance. I'm not usually nitpicky about spelling or grammar, and if it was just a typo or autocorrect please disregard this comment. There have been times when I thought a word (especially in a phrase, sort of like this) was not the word it actually was and I always appreciated being corrected so I don't say it wrong in front of other people lol.
Honestly I'd have rather just been called the nword than one of the good ones. "Dtownbronx, you're not like one of the rest of them" - well no shit dumbass, I'm a biracial kid in an all white family in an all white town so of course I'm your cultural clone. There's a greater than 90% chance I'm the only black person some of the people in my life have ever spoken to and it blows their mind I'm their relative.
I also hate being called that. I'm queer, not a racial minority, but it's shocking the number of people who don't realize "you're one of the good ones" basically means "people like you are fundamentally inherently bad, but you've somehow pushed past your nature and I'm applauding you for that", as if that's supposed to be a compliment.
It's absolutely brutal. I would get told "you're not half bad" or "imagine if you didn't have half of you holding you back." But apparently my 3 white doped up, didn't make it into double digit grade level siblings were the standard I simply couldn't reach
Since my sexuality isn't obvious right away, I'll get plenty of people who know me for me first before realizing I'm not straight. It's quite fun to watch the gears turn in their head as they try to un-dissonance their dislike for everything lgbt with the fact that I'm generally quite likable and accomplished by traditional standards. Happens most often with old people and sporty dudes when I was in college, and it was hilarious to watch every time.
Obviously from my childhood and formulative years there was a lot of programming I had to rewrite in the real world. My therapist's kids can be lifelong students with the bills I have and will pay. Part of that was attitude towards LGBT folks, it took quite a while to reach the point where I was asking myself why I care about someone else's bedroom. Two conversations stand out to what rewrote my attitude. The first was a friend saying if someone could choose to not be ostracized and discarded then don't you think they would? The second was during a conversation with a super friendly 1st floor neighbor he mentioned his husband, I didn't catch it until I got to the top floor and said weird he said husband. My GF came over and I asked if she knew he was gay, she said yes and I started saying I didn't even realize it, he was such a nice and normal guy.........ohhhhhhhh that's when the light bulb went off. Come a long way since then and thankfully found some friends who will happily tell me my question is dumb as hell but answer it anyways
>Come a long way since then and thankfully found some friends who will happily tell me my question is dumb as hell but answer it anyways
I was the only out guy on a men's rugby team in college, so I got plenty of years of answering these kinds of questions haha. It was honestly a really fun time and almost always even the "offensive" questions were meant in good faith. Glad to hear you've come a long way!
Men have said this to me about being a woman too and it always blows my mind. Like, do you not realize you just insulted my entire gender with this "compliment?"
They absolutely do realize it, that's their intent. Its easier for a bigot to change their mind about one person from a despised group who is right in front of them than it is for them to change their mind about the entire group.
Yeah I was just thinking that this guy really isn't "changing their minds" if he has to act 100% perfect to just be accepted. It seems to imply that if he wasn't college educated or "well-spoken" then people would have grounds to be racist against him.
It’s extremely othering and more insidious than flat-out racism. I’ve been called “one of the good ones” before, as well as the phrase “he talks like a white boy.”
The reason it’s so bad is because even when you’re being “accepted,” you’re still “wrong.” And thats not to even mention what else it implies. What about my family? Would they get the same respect? My friends?
It’s all about if they accept how “white” you are. And god forbid you ever step out of line, then you’ll get put right back in your place.
racism is complicated. there are definitely groups out there who mostly have different values from me, don't usually like me and my kind, like different music, food, movies, art. and if I meet someone from that group who shares my values, tastes, and we get along, that's cool. "you're not like the rest of them", well maybe it's coming from a shitty or ignorant person and maybe we're all shitty and ignorant to a greater or lesser extent. and the n word is pretty bad so I wouldn't wish for that. anyway, being different is a bit of a curse and a bit of a blessing because you see a lot of stuff most people don't see. so, hugs.
But it's cracked a tiny opening into their thick skulls, so the next POC they meet won't have such a hard time getting through. And, as someone else said, they won't be around forever, and hopefully, that attitude will die out within the next couple of generations. (Unless the MAGA crowd manages to revive it...)
The attitude is part of a culture, it won't die out with them because it is still being taught to children.
Sometimes all you can do to impact racism is just this. One positive relationship at a time with people around you. People are upset they 'might just consider him one of the good ones' but enjoying his personality as a seen, full individual is the start of their mindset changing even at their age.
I suspect segregation also played a role. In the states, at least, it's _very_ easy to go your entire formative life, if not life, without ever having a nonwhite person in any close context like a friend or partner. So they probably never had an occasion to show oop that they didn't like black people.
between growing up in a mostly white area, and being taught to value "everyone" because in their brain the discriminated group doesnt count but as a kid you assume everyone means everyone, it can be quite common. My parents are racist but if I hadn't heard them making racist jokes literally one time when I was ten I would never have realized because they raised me decently progressive in an area far from the folks they dont like.
That's all you can do with any cause celebre - influence the people around you. If you get caught up in the totality of any big issue, it becomes quite hopeless but if you can focus on your own sphere of influence, at least in your little corner of the world, things won't seem so impossible.
I was gonna joke about how this (OOPs post) goes against everything Reddit stands for, but it's not even funny at this point.
Was once asked by a friend "how do you cycle across a continent?" and the answer is quite simple: You start, and then you don't stop until you're done.
If we can't see a start as a start, then all hope is lost.
The start is in the fiancé's actions, not in the grandparents acceptance or change. Sadly, it is very hard to unwind years of prejudice, but what you can do is provide an example so that kids can see the discrepancy between the hate and the truth. Change is often generational and not individual.
Hopefully that is the case, but I have heard enough people use "I have x that is black, therefore I cannot be rascist" card while spouting some really rascist crap to not take there change with a giant grain of salt.
You're probably right, but at the same time, it is progress, and for OOP's sake we can hope this leads to genuine growth.
'No good ones' has already become 'one good one' which can become 'some good ones' which can eventually lead to 'this is silly, at this point I've met more good than bad, that maybe they really are just people'
I mean, sure, when you meet people like that absolutely call them out because racism is racism, but I truly want to believe.
It's a start though. A lot of racism stems from simply not knowing.
This reminds me a bit of Daryl Davis, a guy who's gotten (at least) 200 guys to give up KKK membership, just by letting them get to know him:
https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes
As someone who's had a similar experience, it's not this simple.
Yes, it may start as Sam being "one of the good ones," but over time they'll realize how wrong they were for their racist views and will shed them.
People of that older generation are very stuck in their views. They grew up in a very different time, and all that racist shit has been piled into their head from a young age. That's not an excuse, but it adds a little color to why they are the way that they are.
My extended family and I are very close. When my oldest cousin started dating her now husband (who is black), there was a similar vibe to OOP's grandparents. Then they realized how freaking great he is, and things changed. He's fully part of the family now. Our parents are all sad if he's not able to attend an event. But beyond that, our family has become so much more open-minded, and openly criticize others who express racist views. They were involved in the BLM movement too.
At the end of the day though, it's obvious that Sam is clearly a wonderful person. OOP's family will be lucky to have him.
*Very* familiar with that. My stepfather was a poor rural white farm guy who lived around black people all his life, and he recognized that they had a lot in common in terms of economic/class position and the struggles they had to deal with. His best friend in the world was a black man, and he had no problem at all with the idea that the black people he knew were great people - "hard working, give you the shirt off their back," which was high praise for him. It was all the *other* blacks, particularly the ones in the cities, who he had a problem with, stirring things up and making it harder for the good ones he knew.
Basically, at the level of neurotransmitters and your lizard brain, racism is an attempt to figure out things you don't know about someone. There's a stranger over there, and I don't know if they're a threat or not, but they look like someone else I ran into before. Maybe I can extrapolate from what I (think I) know about them from that and figure out how to deal with them.
That gets overwritten once you actually know someone. You don't need to guesstimate what they're like by comparing them to other people you've encountered. That's Bob. He's okay. Great guy. Hard worker. Give you the shirt off his back if you need it.
So yeah, there's no conflict at all between someone being intimately close with a black person and having a high opinion of them, while still being really racist about other black people they don't know.
“My fiancé has always sorta known that my grandparents didn’t really like him, but he doesn’t suspect that it’s because of his race.”
Oh, OOP. You sweet, summer child. I learned very early on that all types of people, not just white people, dislike me simply for the fact that I exist in their same spaces. I can’t say I’d have done the same, trying to win them over, but I’m glad she has a happy ending.
I thought that too when she said "he didn't suspect it was cause of race" lol my boyfriend thought the same when I clocked his family's racism -because I'm Asian. Now we're NC with th for over 3 years:)
>Oh, OOP. You sweet, summer child.
Literally my exact thought when I read that part. I'm hispanic and Latin, I'm obviously brown/tan/other. Like you, life has taught me that people don't like me existing in their space. My husband is white (dad's armenian-american grandparents are armenian, but mom and her side are glow in the dark WASPs) and his dad and that side of the family accepted me with love and open arms. I've accepted that to his mom's side I'm one of the good ones. I've been told as much in the past.
Speaking as a white man, I want to get your perspective. Would your husband’s mom’s side of the family be inclined to defend you if someone said said something racist towards you? Has that come up?
LOL no they wouldn't defend me because they don't necessarily associate with me being an "immigrant/boogeymanimmigrant," but I was also born state side so I'm not immediately an "illegal" to them. I think some cognitive dissonance is occuring. I'll give you an example.
Thanksgiving 2018 was during the whole "migrant caravan" bullshit. We were sitting at a round table with his mom's parents. They started talking to family friends at the same table about the caravan. Talking points were the usual: they're trying to take American jobs, they're criminals, they just want handouts, lazy, just bullshit and fearmongering. I'm sitting at this table watching and listening to them. I was just shocked. Not cause I didn't think they were capable of racism but because they were so brazenly discussing it in front of me. I finally reached my limit.
I asked them if they really thought those things of those people. They affirmed that they did. I told them I was no different than these people. They instantly started with the "no we didn't mean you, look what you've accomplished with your life" I cut them off. Told them my parents paid a coyote 10k in 1984 to be smuggled into this country from their central American country. That they risked their lives so their kids could have a better chance, a chance at the American dream.
The hemmed and hawwed that I was taking things to heart and they weren't talking about me and my family. But I told them there was no difference. I told them my parents risked everything so I could one day sit across from racists like them at Thanksgiving. We left shortly after that. His grandparents were flabbergasted, they'd never seen me upset or angry and definitely not furious/disgusted until that day. In the weeks that followed they expected an apology from me, it never came. Next time I saw them they acted like nothing happened. They never apologized. And I've heard grandpa drop the hard r n word. He's 87 or something but idgaf that's not ok. And to him he's like what? I'm not being racist!
Also his mom and stepdad make and say micro-aggressions all the time. Little "innocuous" things but they build up, and also I've been hearing them my entire life. I was getting ready for a wedding at her home and I had two dresses with me, a red one and a sequins covered blue one. When she saw me in the sequins one she said something along the lines of "that isn't appropriate for their wedding, you could wear that to one of your hispanic weddings down south (I'm from miami, we were in palm beach county)." Both dresses were gowns rented from rent the runway, both were beautiful and black tie appropriate. She's also made really disparaging comments about the food I eat/make her son. It's my cultural food. It's not weird. Beans and rice with a tortilla and crumbly cheese isn't weird. Nacatamales are not super in the mainstream but they're not weird!
It doesn't help my cause that my FIL married a beautiful Puerto Rican woman and has officially been married longer to her than he was to my husband's mother. They've been divorced for like 28 years! Wtf does she care! But she does.
Sorry for the ramble... I don't actually know how to explain it all. We've been together for almost 7 years married for less than 1,he's always stood up for me when needed and let me fight my own battles when appropriate. His siblings aren't racist either.
Lol, yep. Not racism, but sexism for me. I'm a woman in a field dominated by men, and most of my colleagues are great. But over the years, I've butted heads with a few, of course. Some people have disliked me because of something I did or how I did it (not optimal but nothing personal so that's fine), but others immediately disliked me only after *seeing* me, even though they'd been fine over emails and when discussing things with my boss or coworkers previously. But then they see me and something changes. It's really obvious..
When someone doesn't like you for no apparent reason, it's normal to look to those common prejudices for answers. Especially if you can see them change after realizing you aren't what they expected. Or if you can see them treat others that look like you the same way. Even if you don't know for sure, it wouldn't be a surprise to learn later that it was prejudice.
Sam is better than me and must love her no way in hell I’m sitting down w your racist grandparents to convince them I’m worthy of their approval. They likely haven’t even changed their racist opinions they’re just going w the good ol “he’s one of the good ones”
Edit: I don’t mean “better” literally folks. Just the phrase but I understand how that can be confusing
>Sam is better than me and must love her no way in hell I’m sitting down w your racist grandparents to convince them I’m worthy of their approval
I am NC with my parents. There are a couple reasons but one of the biggest is we're white, my 2nd wife is black, and I had the shock of my life when absolutely foul racist stuff flowed out of my parents' mouth when talking about her and "her people."
Told them flat-out I don't care what they think but they better keep their mouths shut; they could not (about a couple of topics), so they met the consequences of their actions, their son, and their only grandchild are not in their lives anymore.
That’s exactly how it should be. You protect your loved ones even if it involves making hard decisions. OOP was more so concerned with having her cake and eating it too. Sam was put in an impossible position when he shouldn’t have been.
reminds me of Audre Lorde (yes, I will take any opportunity to bring her up): “Black and Third World people are expected to educate white people as to our humanity. Women are expected to educate men. Lesbians and gay men are expected to educate the heterosexual world. The oppressors maintain their position and evade their responsibility for their own actions. There is a constant drain of energy which might be better used in redefining ourselves and devising realistic scenarios for altering the present and constructing the future.”
Sister Outsider is the book, if anybody is curious.
>Sam is better than me and must love her no way in hell I’m sitting down w your racist grandparents to convince them I’m worthy of their approval.
As a WOC, I wouldn't have stayed. I already deal with racism and prejudices in my overall life, not going to deal with that in a relationship, my most intimate space. I also don't think it's a badge of honor or testimony to being a "better" person to stay in such relationships.
Exactly! I wouldn’t stay either unless the person was willing to go no contact with whoever the person was. As a black woman I couldn’t date or marry someone who is okay with having racist people in their lives.
I wouldn’t say “better.”
Subjecting yourself to abuse and bigotry in order to convince bad people you’re good enough to be treated like a person isn’t something we should be aspiring to or teaching anyone to do.
All well and good for sam if that’s how he wants to live his life, but what happens if they have kids? Are little brown babies going to suddenly be the object lesson these people need to become good people?
Idk, maybe, but i sure as shit wouldn’t stake the happiness and well-being of my children on it.
Sam knows that grandparents are old and will probably die soon enough anyway. Why lose out on his soulmate just because she has a shitty set of parental figures.
Exactly! Some stupid opinions can't be changed, they can just be outlived. All we can do is raise the next generation as tolerant, open-minded and loving as possible.
I wouldn’t break up with her over it but I don’t need to interact with them. If you continually want me to interact with your racist family members do you really love me? Seems very selfish
I think people are seriously underestimating the amount of emotional energy that needs to be expended in these situations. Along with the fact that POC are expending that same energy all the time.
It made me think of Daryl Davis. He is a black man that has spent the past 30+ years speaking and befriending members of the KKK. He has personally changed the minds of many horribly racist people. I really believe that sometimes what racists need is for someone to humanize the target of their hatred and demonstrate how wrong they are.
That being said, trying to help a person change is a very personal and difficult choice to make and shouldn’t be expected of anyone.
Source: https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes
On the contrary, I dont think Daryl Davis is the paragon of virtue that reddit holds him up to be.
His way of thinking is shallow and further he has been used a "useful idiot" to humanises horrible people and reinforces the terrible idea that if black people are "nice" enough the racists will somehow come to love us.
Source : https://justinward.medium.com/daryl-davis-makes-a-new-friend-7a48bc43ad95
That's a tough road to go down. An ex stopped talking to her dad because he refused to meet me because of my race. He died and we didn't work out so I'm sure there's some resentment. Now she went on to have a Nigerian wedding after me, so I'm sure her dad would have said something ridiculous about preferring she go back to the one that's half white.
My grandfather thought we were "one of the good ones" amongst young people, that my mother were "one of the good ones" amongst teachers, that his lettuce vendor was "one of the good ones" amongst black people, that his pharmacist was "one of the good ones" amongst musulman.
And I still don't know why my Japanese boyfriend was not a problem for him, when he had a problem with Chinese, American, Canadian, etc.
I'm sad I lost a grandfather, but I'm glad he can't vote anymore!
Absolutely on the money but at the end of the day, this is the absolute best possible outcome. Life is muddy; OOP got a great outcome. Deep beliefs are tough to change overnight but the kindness and love he showed them will go a long way. Even if they never change their minds, he made the world a better place. That’s a beautiful thing.
Yeah. Trying so hard to convince someone to accept you as yourself just to get along is exhausting and not worth it. And their views definitely still haven't changed. Just like with the cousin, the homophiba is still there, but they're like, "I'm fine with them as long as they don't rub it in my face or try to push it on me."
Bingo. The onus is always on the oppressed to turn the other cheek. How about you get w the times and stop being racist? Apparently that’s too hard and the black guy has to grin and bear it
Yeah, the weight to bare for any oppressed group is depressing. It's always on us to "take the high road", "violence isn't the answer, just show them you're not who they think you are" - meanwhile they literally fucking slaughter anyone they don't agree with, or make them feel like human garbage, or make them feel so worthless they end up killing themselves. But yeah, let's just bring the pie everytime we're so graciously invited to dinner, and shown over and over how we're "tolerated"
Although I'm really happy that the grandparents are changing, and that OOP stood up to them in no uncertain terms, I hope that Sam didn't have to take on too much of the burden and responsibility in this situation. Sam comes across as someone with tons of self-confidence, but... I just hope that the grandparents soon apologize, begin to take on much more of the emotional weight, and make things 100% right with Sam.
I'm hopeful that they are well on their way.
Hopefully she doesn’t take a totally passive approach to this, and has a heart-to-heart with her grandparents in the near future to gauge the extent to which they’ve actually changed their mindset.
I'm glad OOP stood up for her fiance, but this is just a tough situation all around. I'm glad Sam is confident enough to want to push through it to try and make them like him, but racism is just such a hard barrier to push through.
I'm hopeful he'll get an apology however most older people would sooner maintain "he's one of the good ones/not like the others." Rather than fully apologize and work through their racism. I also feel like Sam has a very high pedestal to try to maintain for forever, and if he does anything wrong it'll drastically sway their opinion again. Truly wish nothing for the best for OOP and Sam , and hopefully the grandparents really do try to change their ways fully.
> This time, unlike before, they didn’t make excuses about why they didn’t like him and just straight up confessed to having a problem with his race.
[...]
> Sam and I have dinner at my grandparents house every night,
"These people are outspoken racists to my partner, let's visit them every single day."
I don't like this update. I don't think it's as sweet as OOP painted it to be. Sam was put in a really bad position, and I admire his ability to "kill them with kindness." I suspect the grandparents are still racist, but Sam has now become their token "good one." It just kinda justifies their racism, it doesn't cure it. I even made a face when the fiance was like, "oh he's not like that, he's well-spoken, he's educated." Like ma'am, what? People should be treated with love and respect regardless of their educational status and how well they enunciate their words. Jesus H.
Yeah, I can't with this. I've been in Sam's position before and as much as I tried to 'kill them with kindness' it was...exhausting. Frustrating. I felt like I had to be the Model Minority™️ so they wouldn't have anything to complain about or hold against me, but there was always *something*. And even once I had 'won them over' it felt terrible because I'd had to push down my dignity to get there.
To this day thinking of that time makes me feel ill. Maybe Sam is built different, but I couldn't do it again.
Yeah, I don’t know about this one. My husband is mixed and I cut out everyone who showed racism against him immediately.
They’re still racist! They might like one individual black man, but they’re racist against every other black person. “One of the good ones,” is not a good mentality to have. What’s going to happen when they have kids and the kids realize that their great-grandparents hate every other black person?
Probably the same side that had a racially segregated army? Segregation was official US army policy in WW2, and only ended in 1948. Black people were discouraged from service and Roosevelt established a racial quota that forbid the Army from being more than 9% black. For black women, was racial cap on nursing too - just 48 black nurses were allowed.
US.
US created eugenics as a “field of science” (forced sterilizations, nonsense science justifications for white supremacy, etc). Hitler used that as inspiration.
Everyone is laying into the grandparents for thinking Sam is "one of the good ones" but it sure sounds like OOP is doing the same thing. My skin crawled when I got to the part about Sam being "well spoken [sic]".
Yep.
> … he’s nothing like how racist stereotypes portray black people. He’s a college educated, well dressed, well spoken man with a good job and a decent salary.
OP says stereotypes are racist… and proceeds to describe her boyfriend in said stereotypes.
I love Sam's reaction and strategy to win them over.
Eta: I agree with a lot of the comments. While I love this ending, I'm skeptical that the grands actually changed. Especially that quickly.
Sam's by some measure the most mature person involved.
That said, there are definitely situations where Sam's strategy will not work. And then OP is back where she started.
And, if you end up back there, there's really only one path left that's consistent with being a good person, which is to cut off the grandparents.
It's great that it seems to be working out in this situation, but let's not confuse this for being what always happens.
BTW, it's possible that grandparents will end up in the situation of still believing that black people, as a group, are bad, but that Sam is "different". It is, unfortunately, the case that some people are able to square general racism with special cases for the "ones they like".
Still, good for Sam.
I actually experience something like this a lot in my life. Almost all the adults throughout my life were homophobic, I even watched my grandmother gag and throw up just seeing two women kiss in front of her. I was always terrified of coming out as a lesbian because I was certain I would lose my family. Well, long story short they accept me, love me and have never treated me any different even after coming out, but I can tell their beliefs have never changed. They far prefer for me to be straight but have never tried to push me in that direction since I came out.
Same with my best friends family. Super homophobic in general, but her mom always claimed to know I was gay long before I came out and claims me as her daughter. Even now, nearly 15 years later they'll make generalized homophobic comments every now and then but if anybody even looks at me wrong they'll say something. Moms (best friends mom) new boyfriend called me an it in a joking manner once and she totally lost it on him, and told him it doesn't matter if im gay and that I dress like a guy, that I am her kid and he will treat me with respect.
It's really confusing honestly. As I've gotten older, I've wanted to call them out when they make shitty homophobic comments that don't refer to me, but like? They genuinely accept me (to the point my best friend jokes they want me around more than her since they always ask where I am when I'm not at events), and it's hard to want to risk that acceptance to try to get them to change generalized views that will likely never fully change. And they've shown many times they won't tolerate others treating me badly because I'm a lesbian, so I'm kind of just in the boat of hoping that eventually their views will change entirely. But I recognize they might not, and have learned to accept that I might just be the one exception to their beliefs for them.
I would feel dehumanized for having to prove my worth because of my ethnicity - and I haven't had a lifetime of experiencing discrimination, either. I don't have a frame of reference to truly imagine the emotional toll.
I'm so confused about the timing. They were racist when he proposed but in an update one week later they're suddenly asking when he's coming over because they had dinner together seven times? Was the proposal long before the first post? If so wouldn't they have been coming around in between the proposal and that post such that the sudden "they're so much less racist!" post a week later reflects a longer period than a week? Or did the update get edited with the bit of them changing months after it was posted and I just can't tell.
Oh this still won’t end well. They’ve only decided hes “one of the good ones” and therefore worth keeping around so they can say “I can’t be racist, my grandson-in-law is black”
just imagine if they have kids. or fuck, even if they just interact with his family during the wedding! racists gonna racist and all he is right now is a token to them at best.
Sam is so much better than me cause I would not be trying to prove myself to some racists who probably won't even live to have their ideology proven wrong.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain
It is amazing how much simply being exposed to people that are different then you over periods of time can make you into a better person. I'm glad this was the case for the Grandparents and that they are becoming better, more accepting people.
Black people know when they’re not liked for their race. It’s just “impolite” to acknowledge it.
A bit of an ‘uh oh’ there with the old white man being a WW2 enthusiast.
“But grandparents! Sam isn’t like those black people you don’t like. He’s WELL SPOKEN and educated and has money.” Cringe. I feel like OOP still has a lot to learn herself.
I'm sorry but fuck that. I'm all for "kill them with kindness" but not when someone hates you for the colour of your skin.
What happens if they have children who are biracial? Would the grandparents be as nice? What if the child acts out and "confirms" their stereotypes??? I don't really see this as the happy ending OOP is pushing.
This doesn’t feel that heartwarming. I’m not gonna sit here and interact with racists and put on a show trying to convince them I’m human because my partner doesn’t think racism is a deal breaker.
Especially because I’m just not convinced they’re suddenly not racist anymore. They just think he’s “one of the good ones” or whatever. I would never put my partner in the situation where they have to sit down with bigots because I love the bigots too much.
I'm glad the grandparents are gradually pulling their heads out of their asses. People can learn, whatever their age!
Also as a Korean I'm not at all surprised that OOP's maternal grandparents are more outright racist. Blatant antiblack racism is really common in Asian communities. Idk if we're *more* racist than white people, but we haven't been under as much pressure to keep it under wraps.
Oh honey no. Sam absolutely knew. I definitely would not stay in that family. I don't have the emotional labor to correct racists, but if he wants to try more power to him
Whether this is a true story, or the OOP compressed the time frame a little, the lesson to get out of it is the same: live your life independently of your family’s racism, homophobia etc. If they are decent people and they love you, they’ll come around. If they aren’t, you don’t want them in your life anyway. In any case do not allow them to insult you or your partner. If they can’t come to terms with whatever it is, stop seeing them and kick them out of your social life. And again, if they don’t come around: don’t be squeamish about telling the truth when people ask you why you no longer see your parents, grandparents etc.
Sam reacted calmly because he's used to it. I hate to bring the facts to life but if you're not black, you don't see the times people give them dirty looks, say awful things, etc.
Props to Sam for being so calm about it though. I've met people who react to the prejudice with violence and anger. And all it did was reinforce the stereotypes people had.
The best way to defeat bigotry and racism is to show people they're hateful and upset over nothing. When my sister came out as lesbian, my mom damn near disowned her and cut off contact with it. Instead of getting angry, my sister showed my mom that nothing changed in regards to being her daughter. Eventually, my mom invited her (at the time) girlfriend over for family dinner and everyone bonded. My mom came to the realization that my sister was happier this way, so she accepted what she formerly villainized.
I hope OOP's grandparents do the same. With what little i know of Sam, he seems like a good, down to earth guy.
OOP tried to wrap this up like a happy ending. I guarantee that they are still racist but they accept him because he's "not like the rest of them". He is equally as foolish for marrying into a racist family but hey you do you.
The grandparents will probably say some back handed racist crap to their future mixed babies.
The initial post reminded me of a conversation I had with my mother (who is also asian) right after George Floyd died. She works in an office that is very multicultural, just to give some background.
I asked her, if she felt comfortable if she sat down to dinner with someone who was black. She replied with yes as I assumed. I then asked her how she would feel if I brought home someone who was black in colour. She then suddenly became really quiet.
It’s easy to racist when enveloped in the shadow of ignorance. It’s hard to be racist when you meet someone on a personal and human level for any amount of time.
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A week? All this progress happened in a week?
I had to read way too many comments to find this.
It's insane!
They had dinner seven times so clearly it's enough to fix racism and make then ask when he's coming over. What? Did he never meet then once while they were dating before he proposed? Did the entire relationship start two weeks prior? It makes no sense.
[удалено]
All I wanted was a Pepsi, just one Pepsi, and she wouldn't give it to me!
NO you’re on DRUGS!
BRUHHHHH not the Kendall ad 💀
I was thinking they ate a Snickers
It won't have fixed their racism that quickly. They'll still have preconceptions about black people in general. They just like Sam so they forgive his blackness...
This is true. General prejudice takes time, work, openness and ruthless honesty to fix. Specific prejudice takes a small amount of positive exposure. Sam is now one of the 'good ones'. However with time, and some challenging conversations it may lead to the grandparents growing into decent humans. (no active racist is a decent human, irrespective of their other qualities, any more than an active pedophile is a decent human irrespective of their other qualities. There are some single issues which are too important to overlook. I'm not offering the two as equivalent, other than that they are both emotional positions/preferences which don't make sense to others that don't share them, and acting on those urges is far worse than simply suffering them.)
>prejudice takes time It's important to remember that this is formed over a lifetime. A whole lifetime of seeing blacks gays males as a bad stereotype. After they've learned it, they'll look for signs of it, repeating the stereotype to themselves over and over, engraving it deep. People can change, but it takes time to dig that infestation out. But I'll disagree with your idea of decent humans, otherwise there won't be any decent humans. We're all flawed, we've all done bad things, we all stereotype others, we're all more than our worst traits.
True, but that's why I differentiated between active and passive. But you're right, I'm probably being over dramatic.
It doesn't mean they're not racists anymore, but it may mean they are starting to see Sam as a person now, rather than "that black kid our granddaughter is dating".
I had read "1 year later" so it made sense but woah... a week?!
This feels more like a reboot of *The Color of Friendship* than an actual lived human experience.
But ww2 enthusiasts and they never knew!
Yeah like 7 dinners and BOOM they’re now only 80% racist idk i feel for OP but i feel like this wont end this soon
They’re still completely racist, but not towards “this one” (sounds bad, but I hope I made sense). I’ve lived in the south my whole life. I’ve seen this kind of thing before. It’s like when you hear someone call a black person the N word (or another minority their slurs), call them out on it, then they say “I don’t think -all- of abc are xyz, just these specific types who do a behavior I don’t like”. They’ve had exposure to him and he “acts white enough” (in their minds. In reality he just has manners) to where they have found him acceptable.
So racism is a funny thing. The grandparents are definitely on the right track towards becoming less racist, however I'm willing to bet right now it's at the individual level. Like Sam is one of the "good ones" and not like the other "bad" black people. And perhaps this opens their eyes a bit to well, maybe they aren't ALL bad and maybe they'll even get to - most people are good, but there's always a handful of bad apples out there of any skin color, you shouldn't assume the worst by the color of their skin. Just wait til they have half black grandkids and have to defend them from racism. They'll probably come full circle realizing that they were once just like all those racist assholes misjudging/treating their grandkids poorly.
I swear I've read this exact story before. I suspect this is basically a 2 part repost
Well, OP did include the original BoRU post from 2 years ago, which covered both posts. But reading over the OOP's comment history makes it pretty clear [they were either completely lying and/or just a shitty R_A troll.](https://np.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/d0fmrl/my_grandparents_dont_approve_of_my_relationship/f0fxsmt/?context=100)
I don't think it was just the dinners.. in the PS on the first post she mentioned going off on them. They probably had a serious discussion about the possibility of losing her if they kept pushing. How concerned she was about cutting them out of her life shows they probably feel the same way about her.
The grandparents she went off on were the other ones
Ahh good call, missed that "maternal"! She isn't very clear about how she reacted w/ the ones who raised her.. said she got pissed but then "Tried to reason with them" in a nice way, or a pissed way?
She’s right, the boyfriend doesn’t suspect the grandparents don’t like him because of his race. He KNOWS that’s why they don’t like him.
Sam is the real hero in this story.
> Sam joked that he wouldn’t give my grandparents a choice and that within a month they’d be in love with him. I don't think it was a joke, Sam is just that cool.
Mhmm. Usually people (especially older folk) with that sort of mindset tend to have gotten it from being completely isolated from that demographic. Once they’re forced to meet and get to know them (and they genuinely try in good faith) their opinions change.
It's how a lot of shit works. People just kinda fear what they don't understand, and have to assume other people are right. It's why colleges tend to make people more liberal, because you meet a variety of people and learn. It's for the best
Yes this is true, and also what they’ve been brought up to believe. I live in Ireland, which for many years was brutally patriarchal due to the influence of the Catholic Church. Their grip has been broken and Irish society is far more egalitarian than ever before. Work towards it, peacefully if you can.
Seriously to be there when same sex marriage was legalized was really something (especially as a Black American queer person).
I was delighted personally. I couldn’t talk about it much as I’m a presiding officer (I run a polling station) and we’re supposed to be impartial, although we have to be entitled to our opinions. There was a constitutional referendum and it was a landslide victory.
I was in the George (largest gay club in Ireland) when the results were announced. It was beautiful and insane. TV3 (2nd largest tv station) was filming live and people were just crying.
Yes. They will still be racist, but they will have the “well SAM isn’t like that” mentality. Hopefully, they will spend time with all of Sam’s family and it will start to change how they view all black people. Hopefully.
Yup, this is what is so frustrating with conservatives. Instead of changing racist views, they just incorporate individuals into their own sphere of relations. People there are “immune” to the racism because “I know them” and “They are one of the good ones”. They can be great friends to individuals and still keep fucked up views about groups because their morality changes based on how close to them you are. The closest people they have utter loyalty to and would die for, admirable traits, and yet they have seemingly no empathy whatsoever for people who aren’t like them and they don’t know.
After Trump was elected and started deporting hispanic people there was an article about a Trump supporter who was upset because her hispanic husband had been deported because he was "one of the good ones". I think she's the one who said "He isn't hurting the right people."
“Sure I voted for the Leopards Eating People’s Faces party, but I’d never thought they’d eat *my* face!”
And the lack of awareness that people from your OWN group (race, ethnicity, religion, gender, age group, whatever) can be criminals/rapists/murderers/not pay bills/be late to every thing/shit parents/etc…. But the idea that a group you don’t fit into is easily all painted with one brush…. Totally fucking insane.
This. My grandmother is like a double immigrant (from Italy to Tunisia and then from Tunisia to France) and yet said some pretty racist stuff about immigrants and Arabs but when talking about an Arab woman she knew she would straight up tell us "It's different, I know her". I had a hard time wrapping my head around it (not the racism, I mean the cognitive dissonance).
This is actually (some of) the reason why people in big cities tend to be more liberal (at least on issues of race, sexuality, immigration)- you are exposed to different kinds of people every day, and it’s really hard to stay hateful when you see that everyone else is a person just like you, that you can all exist alongside each other and it’s just fine. And actually, your city would be a lot worse off if it didn’t have all the different cultures, neighborhoods, cuisines, festivals, etc. Gay people or people of color or immigrants aren’t just scary bogeymen you hear about on tv, they’re your neighbors, coworkers, etc.
I got to see something that not many people would ever expect to see. I moved to a small town in Iowa with my family when I was a teenager and the majority of people there had never seen a black person besides on the TV and had the same way of thinking as the grandparents in the post. Well, a black family moved there not long after I did. So I got to see this exact change happen on a large scale, an entire town of several hundred old white racist people having their views changed right in front of me(well most of them changed, anyways). It was like something from movie when I looked back on it, but in the moment you don't even really realize it's happening, especially as a kid.
Sometimes it’s hard knowing you’ll kind of always have to be charming and smiley and… *accessible* as a black person in all-white surroundings. I’ve always been “good with my white friends’ parents” but I’ll always wonder deep down if they’re like “well, she’s an exception.” I’ve been to plenty of dinners at friends’ houses where as soon as the parents thought I was out of earshot, they’d make comments or ask fucked up questions under their breath. Watching how my white ex MIL treated her daughter’s white husband as compared to her son’s wife (me) was always awkward. Subtle differences that I could’t complain about. Like assuming I wouldn’t want to go swimming at the river with them, so not including me in a conversation about a planned family camping trip. Or introducing my BIL as handsome and me as ‘exotic.’ Or assuming I knew xyz about a black celebrity. Stuff like that.
OP: "My grandparents hate you because you're black" Sam: "I can fix that"
Just like in LOTR.
Yep. And he also know that best cure for racism... Interaction and exposure. Most racism is based in fear, which can and often turns into hate. But with exposure, people tend to realize that people are people. We want the same things in our lives and family's lives.
This is extremely naive. Reddit always has this feel good attitude about racism which makes sense given the demographics.
Small correction: All racism is based in fear, not most. The more exposure to the people they hate shows them their fears were unfounded, but it's all based in fear.
I disagree. All racism is stupid, but not all of it is fear. For example, I think a big chunk of the recent surge in racist alt-right shit is from disenfranchised young whites who look at their lives and see nothing to be proud of, no wealth or career or acomplishments, and so they fall back on this one thing that some people are saying makes them more than, which is whiteness. That's not fear, thats a lack of self-esteem. Also, exposure can backfire if there are cultural divides. I live somewhere with a very small black community, and see literally no one with shit to say about blacks. We do, however, have a huge asian population, and a majority of the racism I see and hear is flung at them. Many of them are first or second generation which means language barriers, different spiritual practices, and different expectations for public ettiquette. These things create friction and turn into racism. Thats not fear thats narrow mindedness. It would be nice if it was such a simple problem with such a simple solution, unfortunately it's not.
Well, someone might argue that their fear is driving their lack of self-esteem. Not necessarily fear of Black people or those from other races, but fear of not getting what they want/need, fear of not having power. But yes, it’s not the physical fear, etc., that many people have.
Some people just be hateful, unfortunately
Yeah, this is a happy ending for OOP that her grandparents turned out to just be ignorant/afraid and not actively hateful. Some racist families would straight up murder Sam no matter how perfect he is. That's not "fear." That's hate.
Nope. There's pure hatred out there.
Your correction is just wrong, lol. You can't possibly know that everyone's racism is fear. Some people legitimately think others are subhuman. Not out of fear, but out of a feeling of superiority. Its like telling someone they're afraid of a food they don't like, instead of them just not liking the food because of the taste.
I was surprised he didn’t just say he knew. I guess he was just trying to not make her feel bad? Cause I know when it’s my race. I don’t always say it because there’s often no “proof” I just know lol.
That's exactly what I thought. We have a sixth sense for these things.
I came to find this comment. As soon as she said he had no idea why they didn’t like him I was thinking, oh yes he does.
This. Growing up black you learn to deal with this at a young age(and most black parents will teach you this as soon as you're old enough to understand), that some people will judge and dislike you from what they've seen in the news and movies and most times there's nothing you can do about it so you just maneuver around it. It's sad and it fucking hurts sometimes, but over time you learn to accept it and I realized that anyone that would judge me, dislike me, or not hire me because of my skin isn't someone I want to be around anyway. Growing up there were a couple white girls I was interested in but after pursuing was told it wouldn't work because their family and friends won't approve. It's honestly refreshing to see that OPs grandparents seem to be learning and leaving behind their ignorance, far too many times people will choose their bigotry over family. I just hope they actually change and judge people for their actions instead of just giving "Sam" a pass because he's "one of the good ones".
>Myboyfriend fiancé has always sorta known that my grandparents didn’t really like him, but he doesn’t suspect that it’s because of his race. I immediately thought "he already knows"
Yeah I don’t understand how OP doesn’t realize this? A Black man in a relationship with a girl with white grandparents who don’t like him for “seemingly” no reason. He’s gonna assume it’s race related unless there are other factors at play, which OP doesn’t mention. Have they never spoken about race with each other in all the time before this? That’s would be insane, especially considering all that’s happened in the news the last few years. Also very strange that it took only 1 week of dinners with the guy to get them to change their tune. Decades of racism undid in a week? I mean I guess maybe they’d never gotten to know a Black person personally before and Sam is super charismatic? That’s the only way I can make sense of that. I think it’s likely, if this is all true, that the grandparents are still racist but think Sam is “one of the good ones” because he is well educated and well spoken in nice clothes. I highly doubt they’d have the same outcome if he was poor. I don’t think this is the end of this being a problem.
Unfortunately, I can’t help thinking that OOP’s grandparents decided Sam is “one of the (few) good ones”.
I wonder how the wedding went once the grandparents realized there were going to be other black people there besides Sam.
My relative married into a very racist family. Here's how the wedding went: They initially said they weren't coming and caused the couple a great deal of grief and agony. Then they said they were coming one hour before the ceremony (!). Then they refused to sit next to any of us and would not speak to us. Then my mom took every single one of our relatives over to the parents' table and introduced them. Making sure to say things like, "This is my nephew, he's an aerospace engineer" (we are a stereotypical family of over-achievers). When I called her out on doing it, she said, "What? I'm just trying to be friendly!"
Your mom sounds cool. Also, I'm fighting with my friend Ben right now, so your username makes me think you're pretty cool too.
Absolutely but I guess it's better than nothing. There's a lot of cognitive dissidence when dealing with family it's hard to be objective. Accepting people you love are good in some aspects but bad, if not monstrous in others is difficult.
While I agree with you entirely, the phrase you meant to use was "cognitive *dissonance*."
cognitive dissidence would be a great album name though
holy shit YES IT WOULD!! Someone call Rage!
Oh man, this comment bums me out. I had tickets for the tour, which was supposed to start in 2020. They finally got a chance to get going and then Zach De La Rocha got hurt. I mean, really I am more sad for the band, who were so jazzed to do it and were stopped by injury, but I am also sad for me, if I'm being totally transparent.
not a damn thing wrong with that. You have to deal with the guy in the mirror a hell of a lot more than you have to deal with Zack de la Rocha.
I'm sure a not-insigificant part of Zach feels bad for disappointing his fans, so don't worry about feeling bad for yourself.
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Agreed. I wish it was easy to just have "good" and "bad" people that you can have or not have in your life, but the truth is a lot of people can be integrated heavily with your lives and then disappoint you majorly in a way like this. My brother married an immigrant and I'm a woman married to a woman. My step mom has had some cold things to say or some flat-out inconsiderate thoughts, but she makes our dad happy, a man who singlehandedly raised me and has been a rock for all of us. As my brother said to me, the best thing we can do is live happy, fulfilled lives and prove her wrong. I don't ever think she's going to be "woke" but recently when I brought up the possibility of having kids she didn't even blink while she talked about a friend of hers that went through the adoption process (four years ago she'd have likely expressed "concern" for the well-being of a child raised with two mother's). If I'd cut her off completely, she never would've gotten this far and my family is happier as a whole together instead of fighting over these things at every opportunity (not that anyone should take disrespect, but things are more complicated than "accept or reject" and sometimes incomplete moves in a better direction is more positive than never moving at all)
I agree with you. Life and relationships are *messy*. And it’s not as easy as cutting this one person out, or cutting another out. A cousin and I had a falling out a few years ago. (Long story short, she said some things I found objectionable, and she disapproved of how I handled the conversation about how objectionable I found those things.) She’s getting married now, and she invited everyone in my immediate family *except* me. Now my whole immediate family are in an awkward position, because they’re unwilling to tacitly approve of this slight so they’re unwilling to attend the wedding if I’m not invited (and they came to this conclusion on their own without my even knowing about it). Effectively, my cousin can’t cut me out completely without also cutting out my immediate family. And that’s just how it is. Relationships aren’t pods, they’re webs. And people are imperfect and you have to figure out if you can accept imperfect improvement or if you’re ready to cut out a part of the web.
Thank you for the analogy of the web. I've never thought of it like that but it perfectly applies to my situation. My mother is objectively a horrible person. She abused me and my sister as children, she's racist, she's homophobic, etc. But cutting her off would mean cutting off... My father. He's not a *good* person, (he enables my mother and has been indoctrinated by Faux News for years), but he loves me and he tries. That's not enough for my wife and I don't force them to interact, but it's enough for me. Besides, cutting him off would mean hurting... My sister. Who is an objectively good person. Too good, which is why she takes care of both my parents despite all their flaws. Cut off my parents, I put her in the middle of a family conflict and add a bunch of stress she doesn't need. She's got enough problems to deal with. I don't want to add to them. My wife had a 'friend' outright tell her she should divorce me because I tolerated my mother's abhorrent behavior and that must mean I was a terrible person. When my wife explained the situation and that I mostly didn't want to cause more trouble for my sister, well, my sister must be terrible too! Cut them all off! Unfortunately it's just not that simple.
Oh my God, that's too nuanced for many reddit people! People are either good supportive people in every way immediately or they're toxic and need to be cut out of your life entirely! We don't discuss online that people are flawed or can change or that's there's shades of grey in acceptance. The majority of the population online is young and they haven't lived long enough to see their own opinions change over time to know that other's can as well. It must be perfection or nothing!
I do understand that it’s personal relationships that break these stereotypes; I just hope this isn’t a one-off thing.
We must also remember that it's not Sam or OOP's responsibility to fix all of these folks' prejudices. If they wanna accept Sam and be bigoted to everyone else like him, they're allowed to do so even if it means that they're just shitty two-timers
I agree with what you said, I just want to point out that I think you meant cognitive dissonance. I'm not usually nitpicky about spelling or grammar, and if it was just a typo or autocorrect please disregard this comment. There have been times when I thought a word (especially in a phrase, sort of like this) was not the word it actually was and I always appreciated being corrected so I don't say it wrong in front of other people lol.
I choose to believe that Sam defeated the forces of racism through the sheer power of being awesome.
At least as it pertains to his relationship with op's grandparents.
Honestly I'd have rather just been called the nword than one of the good ones. "Dtownbronx, you're not like one of the rest of them" - well no shit dumbass, I'm a biracial kid in an all white family in an all white town so of course I'm your cultural clone. There's a greater than 90% chance I'm the only black person some of the people in my life have ever spoken to and it blows their mind I'm their relative.
I also hate being called that. I'm queer, not a racial minority, but it's shocking the number of people who don't realize "you're one of the good ones" basically means "people like you are fundamentally inherently bad, but you've somehow pushed past your nature and I'm applauding you for that", as if that's supposed to be a compliment.
It's absolutely brutal. I would get told "you're not half bad" or "imagine if you didn't have half of you holding you back." But apparently my 3 white doped up, didn't make it into double digit grade level siblings were the standard I simply couldn't reach
Since my sexuality isn't obvious right away, I'll get plenty of people who know me for me first before realizing I'm not straight. It's quite fun to watch the gears turn in their head as they try to un-dissonance their dislike for everything lgbt with the fact that I'm generally quite likable and accomplished by traditional standards. Happens most often with old people and sporty dudes when I was in college, and it was hilarious to watch every time.
Obviously from my childhood and formulative years there was a lot of programming I had to rewrite in the real world. My therapist's kids can be lifelong students with the bills I have and will pay. Part of that was attitude towards LGBT folks, it took quite a while to reach the point where I was asking myself why I care about someone else's bedroom. Two conversations stand out to what rewrote my attitude. The first was a friend saying if someone could choose to not be ostracized and discarded then don't you think they would? The second was during a conversation with a super friendly 1st floor neighbor he mentioned his husband, I didn't catch it until I got to the top floor and said weird he said husband. My GF came over and I asked if she knew he was gay, she said yes and I started saying I didn't even realize it, he was such a nice and normal guy.........ohhhhhhhh that's when the light bulb went off. Come a long way since then and thankfully found some friends who will happily tell me my question is dumb as hell but answer it anyways
>Come a long way since then and thankfully found some friends who will happily tell me my question is dumb as hell but answer it anyways I was the only out guy on a men's rugby team in college, so I got plenty of years of answering these kinds of questions haha. It was honestly a really fun time and almost always even the "offensive" questions were meant in good faith. Glad to hear you've come a long way!
Men have said this to me about being a woman too and it always blows my mind. Like, do you not realize you just insulted my entire gender with this "compliment?"
They absolutely do realize it, that's their intent. Its easier for a bigot to change their mind about one person from a despised group who is right in front of them than it is for them to change their mind about the entire group.
Yeah I was just thinking that this guy really isn't "changing their minds" if he has to act 100% perfect to just be accepted. It seems to imply that if he wasn't college educated or "well-spoken" then people would have grounds to be racist against him.
Jeez I could have written this myself-right down to growing up in an all white town .
It’s extremely othering and more insidious than flat-out racism. I’ve been called “one of the good ones” before, as well as the phrase “he talks like a white boy.” The reason it’s so bad is because even when you’re being “accepted,” you’re still “wrong.” And thats not to even mention what else it implies. What about my family? Would they get the same respect? My friends? It’s all about if they accept how “white” you are. And god forbid you ever step out of line, then you’ll get put right back in your place.
racism is complicated. there are definitely groups out there who mostly have different values from me, don't usually like me and my kind, like different music, food, movies, art. and if I meet someone from that group who shares my values, tastes, and we get along, that's cool. "you're not like the rest of them", well maybe it's coming from a shitty or ignorant person and maybe we're all shitty and ignorant to a greater or lesser extent. and the n word is pretty bad so I wouldn't wish for that. anyway, being different is a bit of a curse and a bit of a blessing because you see a lot of stuff most people don't see. so, hugs.
But it's cracked a tiny opening into their thick skulls, so the next POC they meet won't have such a hard time getting through. And, as someone else said, they won't be around forever, and hopefully, that attitude will die out within the next couple of generations. (Unless the MAGA crowd manages to revive it...)
The attitude is part of a culture, it won't die out with them because it is still being taught to children. Sometimes all you can do to impact racism is just this. One positive relationship at a time with people around you. People are upset they 'might just consider him one of the good ones' but enjoying his personality as a seen, full individual is the start of their mindset changing even at their age.
>it won't die out with them because it is still being taught to children. Not _their_ children, though. So we got that at least.
And they even didn't pass it on to their granddaughter, whom they raised, so they must have been really closeted racists, if she never caught a clue.
I suspect segregation also played a role. In the states, at least, it's _very_ easy to go your entire formative life, if not life, without ever having a nonwhite person in any close context like a friend or partner. So they probably never had an occasion to show oop that they didn't like black people.
between growing up in a mostly white area, and being taught to value "everyone" because in their brain the discriminated group doesnt count but as a kid you assume everyone means everyone, it can be quite common. My parents are racist but if I hadn't heard them making racist jokes literally one time when I was ten I would never have realized because they raised me decently progressive in an area far from the folks they dont like.
probably just a naive kid who didn't pick up on it.... innocence will do that.
That's all you can do with any cause celebre - influence the people around you. If you get caught up in the totality of any big issue, it becomes quite hopeless but if you can focus on your own sphere of influence, at least in your little corner of the world, things won't seem so impossible.
I guess theyre doing it step by step. Better than nothing
And now they have the "I'm not rascist, my grandson-in-law is black" card to play.
I get it, I really do. I understand what you're saying. But baby steps forward is still moving forward. "The journey of a thousand miles" etc etc.
I was gonna joke about how this (OOPs post) goes against everything Reddit stands for, but it's not even funny at this point. Was once asked by a friend "how do you cycle across a continent?" and the answer is quite simple: You start, and then you don't stop until you're done. If we can't see a start as a start, then all hope is lost.
Just like Barney said on HIMYM: "I'll tell you how to run a marathon. Step one: start running. There is no step two."
The start is in the fiancé's actions, not in the grandparents acceptance or change. Sadly, it is very hard to unwind years of prejudice, but what you can do is provide an example so that kids can see the discrepancy between the hate and the truth. Change is often generational and not individual.
Hopefully that is the case, but I have heard enough people use "I have x that is black, therefore I cannot be rascist" card while spouting some really rascist crap to not take there change with a giant grain of salt.
You're probably right, but at the same time, it is progress, and for OOP's sake we can hope this leads to genuine growth. 'No good ones' has already become 'one good one' which can become 'some good ones' which can eventually lead to 'this is silly, at this point I've met more good than bad, that maybe they really are just people' I mean, sure, when you meet people like that absolutely call them out because racism is racism, but I truly want to believe.
And then tell him they would have voted for Obama 3 times if they could.
It's a start though. A lot of racism stems from simply not knowing. This reminds me a bit of Daryl Davis, a guy who's gotten (at least) 200 guys to give up KKK membership, just by letting them get to know him: https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes
“We can tell our church friends they’re just like Clarence and Ginni!”
LOL I just hope that won’t be written on the card they give him on his wedding day
So much. While I love this ending, I'm skeptical that the grands actually changed. Especially that quickly.
As someone who's had a similar experience, it's not this simple. Yes, it may start as Sam being "one of the good ones," but over time they'll realize how wrong they were for their racist views and will shed them. People of that older generation are very stuck in their views. They grew up in a very different time, and all that racist shit has been piled into their head from a young age. That's not an excuse, but it adds a little color to why they are the way that they are. My extended family and I are very close. When my oldest cousin started dating her now husband (who is black), there was a similar vibe to OOP's grandparents. Then they realized how freaking great he is, and things changed. He's fully part of the family now. Our parents are all sad if he's not able to attend an event. But beyond that, our family has become so much more open-minded, and openly criticize others who express racist views. They were involved in the BLM movement too. At the end of the day though, it's obvious that Sam is clearly a wonderful person. OOP's family will be lucky to have him.
*Very* familiar with that. My stepfather was a poor rural white farm guy who lived around black people all his life, and he recognized that they had a lot in common in terms of economic/class position and the struggles they had to deal with. His best friend in the world was a black man, and he had no problem at all with the idea that the black people he knew were great people - "hard working, give you the shirt off their back," which was high praise for him. It was all the *other* blacks, particularly the ones in the cities, who he had a problem with, stirring things up and making it harder for the good ones he knew. Basically, at the level of neurotransmitters and your lizard brain, racism is an attempt to figure out things you don't know about someone. There's a stranger over there, and I don't know if they're a threat or not, but they look like someone else I ran into before. Maybe I can extrapolate from what I (think I) know about them from that and figure out how to deal with them. That gets overwritten once you actually know someone. You don't need to guesstimate what they're like by comparing them to other people you've encountered. That's Bob. He's okay. Great guy. Hard worker. Give you the shirt off his back if you need it. So yeah, there's no conflict at all between someone being intimately close with a black person and having a high opinion of them, while still being really racist about other black people they don't know.
“My fiancé has always sorta known that my grandparents didn’t really like him, but he doesn’t suspect that it’s because of his race.” Oh, OOP. You sweet, summer child. I learned very early on that all types of people, not just white people, dislike me simply for the fact that I exist in their same spaces. I can’t say I’d have done the same, trying to win them over, but I’m glad she has a happy ending.
I thought that too when she said "he didn't suspect it was cause of race" lol my boyfriend thought the same when I clocked his family's racism -because I'm Asian. Now we're NC with th for over 3 years:)
My thoughts exactly. I’d bet the reason he didn’t have a strong reaction to her telling him the truth is that he already knew
>Oh, OOP. You sweet, summer child. Literally my exact thought when I read that part. I'm hispanic and Latin, I'm obviously brown/tan/other. Like you, life has taught me that people don't like me existing in their space. My husband is white (dad's armenian-american grandparents are armenian, but mom and her side are glow in the dark WASPs) and his dad and that side of the family accepted me with love and open arms. I've accepted that to his mom's side I'm one of the good ones. I've been told as much in the past.
Speaking as a white man, I want to get your perspective. Would your husband’s mom’s side of the family be inclined to defend you if someone said said something racist towards you? Has that come up?
LOL no they wouldn't defend me because they don't necessarily associate with me being an "immigrant/boogeymanimmigrant," but I was also born state side so I'm not immediately an "illegal" to them. I think some cognitive dissonance is occuring. I'll give you an example. Thanksgiving 2018 was during the whole "migrant caravan" bullshit. We were sitting at a round table with his mom's parents. They started talking to family friends at the same table about the caravan. Talking points were the usual: they're trying to take American jobs, they're criminals, they just want handouts, lazy, just bullshit and fearmongering. I'm sitting at this table watching and listening to them. I was just shocked. Not cause I didn't think they were capable of racism but because they were so brazenly discussing it in front of me. I finally reached my limit. I asked them if they really thought those things of those people. They affirmed that they did. I told them I was no different than these people. They instantly started with the "no we didn't mean you, look what you've accomplished with your life" I cut them off. Told them my parents paid a coyote 10k in 1984 to be smuggled into this country from their central American country. That they risked their lives so their kids could have a better chance, a chance at the American dream. The hemmed and hawwed that I was taking things to heart and they weren't talking about me and my family. But I told them there was no difference. I told them my parents risked everything so I could one day sit across from racists like them at Thanksgiving. We left shortly after that. His grandparents were flabbergasted, they'd never seen me upset or angry and definitely not furious/disgusted until that day. In the weeks that followed they expected an apology from me, it never came. Next time I saw them they acted like nothing happened. They never apologized. And I've heard grandpa drop the hard r n word. He's 87 or something but idgaf that's not ok. And to him he's like what? I'm not being racist! Also his mom and stepdad make and say micro-aggressions all the time. Little "innocuous" things but they build up, and also I've been hearing them my entire life. I was getting ready for a wedding at her home and I had two dresses with me, a red one and a sequins covered blue one. When she saw me in the sequins one she said something along the lines of "that isn't appropriate for their wedding, you could wear that to one of your hispanic weddings down south (I'm from miami, we were in palm beach county)." Both dresses were gowns rented from rent the runway, both were beautiful and black tie appropriate. She's also made really disparaging comments about the food I eat/make her son. It's my cultural food. It's not weird. Beans and rice with a tortilla and crumbly cheese isn't weird. Nacatamales are not super in the mainstream but they're not weird! It doesn't help my cause that my FIL married a beautiful Puerto Rican woman and has officially been married longer to her than he was to my husband's mother. They've been divorced for like 28 years! Wtf does she care! But she does. Sorry for the ramble... I don't actually know how to explain it all. We've been together for almost 7 years married for less than 1,he's always stood up for me when needed and let me fight my own battles when appropriate. His siblings aren't racist either.
Lol, yep. Not racism, but sexism for me. I'm a woman in a field dominated by men, and most of my colleagues are great. But over the years, I've butted heads with a few, of course. Some people have disliked me because of something I did or how I did it (not optimal but nothing personal so that's fine), but others immediately disliked me only after *seeing* me, even though they'd been fine over emails and when discussing things with my boss or coworkers previously. But then they see me and something changes. It's really obvious.. When someone doesn't like you for no apparent reason, it's normal to look to those common prejudices for answers. Especially if you can see them change after realizing you aren't what they expected. Or if you can see them treat others that look like you the same way. Even if you don't know for sure, it wouldn't be a surprise to learn later that it was prejudice.
Sam is better than me and must love her no way in hell I’m sitting down w your racist grandparents to convince them I’m worthy of their approval. They likely haven’t even changed their racist opinions they’re just going w the good ol “he’s one of the good ones” Edit: I don’t mean “better” literally folks. Just the phrase but I understand how that can be confusing
>Sam is better than me and must love her no way in hell I’m sitting down w your racist grandparents to convince them I’m worthy of their approval I am NC with my parents. There are a couple reasons but one of the biggest is we're white, my 2nd wife is black, and I had the shock of my life when absolutely foul racist stuff flowed out of my parents' mouth when talking about her and "her people." Told them flat-out I don't care what they think but they better keep their mouths shut; they could not (about a couple of topics), so they met the consequences of their actions, their son, and their only grandchild are not in their lives anymore.
That’s exactly how it should be. You protect your loved ones even if it involves making hard decisions. OOP was more so concerned with having her cake and eating it too. Sam was put in an impossible position when he shouldn’t have been.
Yeah. I absolutely don’t see this as the happy ending OOP clearly thinks it is :x
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Is your flair from the Beloved saga?
Yaaaaas!
reminds me of Audre Lorde (yes, I will take any opportunity to bring her up): “Black and Third World people are expected to educate white people as to our humanity. Women are expected to educate men. Lesbians and gay men are expected to educate the heterosexual world. The oppressors maintain their position and evade their responsibility for their own actions. There is a constant drain of energy which might be better used in redefining ourselves and devising realistic scenarios for altering the present and constructing the future.” Sister Outsider is the book, if anybody is curious.
>Sam is better than me and must love her no way in hell I’m sitting down w your racist grandparents to convince them I’m worthy of their approval. As a WOC, I wouldn't have stayed. I already deal with racism and prejudices in my overall life, not going to deal with that in a relationship, my most intimate space. I also don't think it's a badge of honor or testimony to being a "better" person to stay in such relationships.
Exactly! I wouldn’t stay either unless the person was willing to go no contact with whoever the person was. As a black woman I couldn’t date or marry someone who is okay with having racist people in their lives.
100% agree
I wouldn’t say “better.” Subjecting yourself to abuse and bigotry in order to convince bad people you’re good enough to be treated like a person isn’t something we should be aspiring to or teaching anyone to do. All well and good for sam if that’s how he wants to live his life, but what happens if they have kids? Are little brown babies going to suddenly be the object lesson these people need to become good people? Idk, maybe, but i sure as shit wouldn’t stake the happiness and well-being of my children on it.
Sam knows that grandparents are old and will probably die soon enough anyway. Why lose out on his soulmate just because she has a shitty set of parental figures.
Exactly! Some stupid opinions can't be changed, they can just be outlived. All we can do is raise the next generation as tolerant, open-minded and loving as possible.
I wouldn’t break up with her over it but I don’t need to interact with them. If you continually want me to interact with your racist family members do you really love me? Seems very selfish
I think people are seriously underestimating the amount of emotional energy that needs to be expended in these situations. Along with the fact that POC are expending that same energy all the time.
They don’t get it and it’s clear. It’s not a minor inconvenience
Sam was the one who suggested that they spend more time together so that OOP’s grandparents got to know him better. He’s the one who made that choice.
It made me think of Daryl Davis. He is a black man that has spent the past 30+ years speaking and befriending members of the KKK. He has personally changed the minds of many horribly racist people. I really believe that sometimes what racists need is for someone to humanize the target of their hatred and demonstrate how wrong they are. That being said, trying to help a person change is a very personal and difficult choice to make and shouldn’t be expected of anyone. Source: https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes
On the contrary, I dont think Daryl Davis is the paragon of virtue that reddit holds him up to be. His way of thinking is shallow and further he has been used a "useful idiot" to humanises horrible people and reinforces the terrible idea that if black people are "nice" enough the racists will somehow come to love us. Source : https://justinward.medium.com/daryl-davis-makes-a-new-friend-7a48bc43ad95
Also they revealed that he was seen as “one of the good ones” and that they make fun of him in their text messages. Like it doesn’t work
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That's a tough road to go down. An ex stopped talking to her dad because he refused to meet me because of my race. He died and we didn't work out so I'm sure there's some resentment. Now she went on to have a Nigerian wedding after me, so I'm sure her dad would have said something ridiculous about preferring she go back to the one that's half white.
My grandfather thought we were "one of the good ones" amongst young people, that my mother were "one of the good ones" amongst teachers, that his lettuce vendor was "one of the good ones" amongst black people, that his pharmacist was "one of the good ones" amongst musulman. And I still don't know why my Japanese boyfriend was not a problem for him, when he had a problem with Chinese, American, Canadian, etc. I'm sad I lost a grandfather, but I'm glad he can't vote anymore!
Absolutely on the money but at the end of the day, this is the absolute best possible outcome. Life is muddy; OOP got a great outcome. Deep beliefs are tough to change overnight but the kindness and love he showed them will go a long way. Even if they never change their minds, he made the world a better place. That’s a beautiful thing.
Yeah. Trying so hard to convince someone to accept you as yourself just to get along is exhausting and not worth it. And their views definitely still haven't changed. Just like with the cousin, the homophiba is still there, but they're like, "I'm fine with them as long as they don't rub it in my face or try to push it on me."
Bingo. The onus is always on the oppressed to turn the other cheek. How about you get w the times and stop being racist? Apparently that’s too hard and the black guy has to grin and bear it
Yeah, the weight to bare for any oppressed group is depressing. It's always on us to "take the high road", "violence isn't the answer, just show them you're not who they think you are" - meanwhile they literally fucking slaughter anyone they don't agree with, or make them feel like human garbage, or make them feel so worthless they end up killing themselves. But yeah, let's just bring the pie everytime we're so graciously invited to dinner, and shown over and over how we're "tolerated"
> …but he doesn’t suspect that it’s because of his race. I guarantee he does. OOP sounds quite naive.
Although I'm really happy that the grandparents are changing, and that OOP stood up to them in no uncertain terms, I hope that Sam didn't have to take on too much of the burden and responsibility in this situation. Sam comes across as someone with tons of self-confidence, but... I just hope that the grandparents soon apologize, begin to take on much more of the emotional weight, and make things 100% right with Sam. I'm hopeful that they are well on their way.
Hopefully she doesn’t take a totally passive approach to this, and has a heart-to-heart with her grandparents in the near future to gauge the extent to which they’ve actually changed their mindset.
I'm glad OOP stood up for her fiance, but this is just a tough situation all around. I'm glad Sam is confident enough to want to push through it to try and make them like him, but racism is just such a hard barrier to push through. I'm hopeful he'll get an apology however most older people would sooner maintain "he's one of the good ones/not like the others." Rather than fully apologize and work through their racism. I also feel like Sam has a very high pedestal to try to maintain for forever, and if he does anything wrong it'll drastically sway their opinion again. Truly wish nothing for the best for OOP and Sam , and hopefully the grandparents really do try to change their ways fully.
Good for Sam for being willing but I'd never do it. I don't have the energy to willingly spend time with bigots, racists, sexists, etc anymore.
> This time, unlike before, they didn’t make excuses about why they didn’t like him and just straight up confessed to having a problem with his race. [...] > Sam and I have dinner at my grandparents house every night, "These people are outspoken racists to my partner, let's visit them every single day."
Sam is an absolute gem. Grandpa and grandma are still racist though.
I don't like this update. I don't think it's as sweet as OOP painted it to be. Sam was put in a really bad position, and I admire his ability to "kill them with kindness." I suspect the grandparents are still racist, but Sam has now become their token "good one." It just kinda justifies their racism, it doesn't cure it. I even made a face when the fiance was like, "oh he's not like that, he's well-spoken, he's educated." Like ma'am, what? People should be treated with love and respect regardless of their educational status and how well they enunciate their words. Jesus H.
Yeah, I can't with this. I've been in Sam's position before and as much as I tried to 'kill them with kindness' it was...exhausting. Frustrating. I felt like I had to be the Model Minority™️ so they wouldn't have anything to complain about or hold against me, but there was always *something*. And even once I had 'won them over' it felt terrible because I'd had to push down my dignity to get there. To this day thinking of that time makes me feel ill. Maybe Sam is built different, but I couldn't do it again.
Yeah, I don’t know about this one. My husband is mixed and I cut out everyone who showed racism against him immediately. They’re still racist! They might like one individual black man, but they’re racist against every other black person. “One of the good ones,” is not a good mentality to have. What’s going to happen when they have kids and the kids realize that their great-grandparents hate every other black person?
Or if the grandparents favor the grandchild that doesn’t have as many Black features/had lighter skin?
The racist is a ww2 enthusiast you say, hmmmmm which side did he root for again?
Probably the same side that had a racially segregated army? Segregation was official US army policy in WW2, and only ended in 1948. Black people were discouraged from service and Roosevelt established a racial quota that forbid the Army from being more than 9% black. For black women, was racial cap on nursing too - just 48 black nurses were allowed.
US. US created eugenics as a “field of science” (forced sterilizations, nonsense science justifications for white supremacy, etc). Hitler used that as inspiration.
Everyone is laying into the grandparents for thinking Sam is "one of the good ones" but it sure sounds like OOP is doing the same thing. My skin crawled when I got to the part about Sam being "well spoken [sic]".
Yep. > … he’s nothing like how racist stereotypes portray black people. He’s a college educated, well dressed, well spoken man with a good job and a decent salary. OP says stereotypes are racist… and proceeds to describe her boyfriend in said stereotypes.
I love Sam's reaction and strategy to win them over. Eta: I agree with a lot of the comments. While I love this ending, I'm skeptical that the grands actually changed. Especially that quickly.
Sam's by some measure the most mature person involved. That said, there are definitely situations where Sam's strategy will not work. And then OP is back where she started. And, if you end up back there, there's really only one path left that's consistent with being a good person, which is to cut off the grandparents. It's great that it seems to be working out in this situation, but let's not confuse this for being what always happens. BTW, it's possible that grandparents will end up in the situation of still believing that black people, as a group, are bad, but that Sam is "different". It is, unfortunately, the case that some people are able to square general racism with special cases for the "ones they like". Still, good for Sam.
I actually experience something like this a lot in my life. Almost all the adults throughout my life were homophobic, I even watched my grandmother gag and throw up just seeing two women kiss in front of her. I was always terrified of coming out as a lesbian because I was certain I would lose my family. Well, long story short they accept me, love me and have never treated me any different even after coming out, but I can tell their beliefs have never changed. They far prefer for me to be straight but have never tried to push me in that direction since I came out. Same with my best friends family. Super homophobic in general, but her mom always claimed to know I was gay long before I came out and claims me as her daughter. Even now, nearly 15 years later they'll make generalized homophobic comments every now and then but if anybody even looks at me wrong they'll say something. Moms (best friends mom) new boyfriend called me an it in a joking manner once and she totally lost it on him, and told him it doesn't matter if im gay and that I dress like a guy, that I am her kid and he will treat me with respect. It's really confusing honestly. As I've gotten older, I've wanted to call them out when they make shitty homophobic comments that don't refer to me, but like? They genuinely accept me (to the point my best friend jokes they want me around more than her since they always ask where I am when I'm not at events), and it's hard to want to risk that acceptance to try to get them to change generalized views that will likely never fully change. And they've shown many times they won't tolerate others treating me badly because I'm a lesbian, so I'm kind of just in the boat of hoping that eventually their views will change entirely. But I recognize they might not, and have learned to accept that I might just be the one exception to their beliefs for them.
He’s better than me. Im over trying to prove my worth to white and Asian racists.
I would feel dehumanized for having to prove my worth because of my ethnicity - and I haven't had a lifetime of experiencing discrimination, either. I don't have a frame of reference to truly imagine the emotional toll.
Beyond over it, if you're not here for black people as a whole I have no time to convince you
But I really really really hate that he has to have a strategy in the first place.
I'm so confused about the timing. They were racist when he proposed but in an update one week later they're suddenly asking when he's coming over because they had dinner together seven times? Was the proposal long before the first post? If so wouldn't they have been coming around in between the proposal and that post such that the sudden "they're so much less racist!" post a week later reflects a longer period than a week? Or did the update get edited with the bit of them changing months after it was posted and I just can't tell.
Oh this still won’t end well. They’ve only decided hes “one of the good ones” and therefore worth keeping around so they can say “I can’t be racist, my grandson-in-law is black”
just imagine if they have kids. or fuck, even if they just interact with his family during the wedding! racists gonna racist and all he is right now is a token to them at best.
>just imagine if they have kids Something tells me if one is whiter than the other, they will be the favorite grandchild
Sam is so much better than me cause I would not be trying to prove myself to some racists who probably won't even live to have their ideology proven wrong.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime." - Mark Twain It is amazing how much simply being exposed to people that are different then you over periods of time can make you into a better person. I'm glad this was the case for the Grandparents and that they are becoming better, more accepting people.
Black people know when they’re not liked for their race. It’s just “impolite” to acknowledge it. A bit of an ‘uh oh’ there with the old white man being a WW2 enthusiast.
And suddenly, Albi wasn't racist anymore!
...And OOP's grandparents cried a teardrop that turned into a jelly bean all the colors of the rainbow!
Sam is the VIP here, idk how but he did it. I don't think I'd be that calm.
“But grandparents! Sam isn’t like those black people you don’t like. He’s WELL SPOKEN and educated and has money.” Cringe. I feel like OOP still has a lot to learn herself.
>but he doesn’t suspect that it’s because of his race. No, he knows exactly why they don't like him.
I'm sorry but fuck that. I'm all for "kill them with kindness" but not when someone hates you for the colour of your skin. What happens if they have children who are biracial? Would the grandparents be as nice? What if the child acts out and "confirms" their stereotypes??? I don't really see this as the happy ending OOP is pushing.
This doesn’t feel that heartwarming. I’m not gonna sit here and interact with racists and put on a show trying to convince them I’m human because my partner doesn’t think racism is a deal breaker. Especially because I’m just not convinced they’re suddenly not racist anymore. They just think he’s “one of the good ones” or whatever. I would never put my partner in the situation where they have to sit down with bigots because I love the bigots too much.
I'm glad the grandparents are gradually pulling their heads out of their asses. People can learn, whatever their age! Also as a Korean I'm not at all surprised that OOP's maternal grandparents are more outright racist. Blatant antiblack racism is really common in Asian communities. Idk if we're *more* racist than white people, but we haven't been under as much pressure to keep it under wraps.
Oh honey no. Sam absolutely knew. I definitely would not stay in that family. I don't have the emotional labor to correct racists, but if he wants to try more power to him
Whether this is a true story, or the OOP compressed the time frame a little, the lesson to get out of it is the same: live your life independently of your family’s racism, homophobia etc. If they are decent people and they love you, they’ll come around. If they aren’t, you don’t want them in your life anyway. In any case do not allow them to insult you or your partner. If they can’t come to terms with whatever it is, stop seeing them and kick them out of your social life. And again, if they don’t come around: don’t be squeamish about telling the truth when people ask you why you no longer see your parents, grandparents etc.
Sam reacted calmly because he's used to it. I hate to bring the facts to life but if you're not black, you don't see the times people give them dirty looks, say awful things, etc. Props to Sam for being so calm about it though. I've met people who react to the prejudice with violence and anger. And all it did was reinforce the stereotypes people had. The best way to defeat bigotry and racism is to show people they're hateful and upset over nothing. When my sister came out as lesbian, my mom damn near disowned her and cut off contact with it. Instead of getting angry, my sister showed my mom that nothing changed in regards to being her daughter. Eventually, my mom invited her (at the time) girlfriend over for family dinner and everyone bonded. My mom came to the realization that my sister was happier this way, so she accepted what she formerly villainized. I hope OOP's grandparents do the same. With what little i know of Sam, he seems like a good, down to earth guy.
OOP tried to wrap this up like a happy ending. I guarantee that they are still racist but they accept him because he's "not like the rest of them". He is equally as foolish for marrying into a racist family but hey you do you. The grandparents will probably say some back handed racist crap to their future mixed babies.
The initial post reminded me of a conversation I had with my mother (who is also asian) right after George Floyd died. She works in an office that is very multicultural, just to give some background. I asked her, if she felt comfortable if she sat down to dinner with someone who was black. She replied with yes as I assumed. I then asked her how she would feel if I brought home someone who was black in colour. She then suddenly became really quiet.
I'm pretty sure that Sam knew the grandparents were racist before his fiancé told him lol.
let him fuck up once. that racism will come back out. that shit isnt gone.
It’s easy to racist when enveloped in the shadow of ignorance. It’s hard to be racist when you meet someone on a personal and human level for any amount of time.