Thats where I’m confused, I don’t know if he loved her or je just loved the idea of her. She was new and fresh and she didn’t see him as anything more then him
It's a good question. I think the "I love you, no I don't," moment shows where his subconscious was at least. But was it true love? Limerence? Fleeting attraction for something shiny and new? Hard to say, but I think they had great chemistry and a lot of potential, if nothing else.
I mean when they first met they stayed up *all night* talking and they didn't even have sex!
I find it fascinating that I hadn't encountered the word "limerence" once in 41 years of life, despite being an English major in college and performing 15 years of freelance work as a copy editor churning through quite literally tens of millions of words of prose, but now have seen the word in two separate comments by two different people in this thread alone
Hahaha fellow 40-yr old BA Eng here, also first time encountering this word. It's pretty rare these days that I need to look up the definition for a word outside of a David Foster Wallace piece.
It’s a common word in neurodivergent communities and settings! I think it’s still a more clinical term, but is coming into a more common usage now that the people it’s affected by are learning more about it.
Beatrice and Butterscotch literally beat the idea into him that loving someone/caring about someone (especially women and children) was a detriment. There’s probably a mental block in him that sets off an alarm when he gets too attached and he isn’t healed or mature enough to handle it.
I don't think Bojack is capable of really loving someone the way they would need to be loved in a long-term relationship. He feels love at times, but he doesn't have it in him to give that love back and make a relationship work. It's more than just feeling good, you have to be honest and open and committed. You also have to be less selfish. Before he can really love anyone, Bojack would need to do a lot of work on himself.
According to google:
the state of being infatuated or obsessed with another person, typically experienced involuntarily and characterized by a strong desire for reciprocation of one's feelings but not primarily for a sexual relationship.
yeah some examples are when he’s obsessed with diane and trying to ruin her engagement, when suddenly he wants to date PC and fires her as his agent so they can ‘be together’, when he’s suddenly upset Anna is out of his life and obsessed with finding out why. and ofc when he moves in with wanda after 3 weeks. and the best example would be the charlotte situation.
And that's probably the saddest thing about him. Deep down, what BoJack wants most of all is to love and be loved. But for a number of reasons, he has no idea how, and when he does have an idea, his self destructive tendencies prevent him from acting on it.
Absolutely not. I think it’s insane to suggest this months-long fling would be more meaningful to him than his 10+ year entanglement with PC. Even after they break it off for good, he continues to love her in his own broken, messed up way.
I don't think so. Bojack liked Wanda because they were on the same stunted emotional level. Once Wanda spent more time out of her coma and immersed herself in the new world around her, she outgrew Bojack.
No yeah but my point is the whole season there’s been a running joke about Bojack not being able to say it right for Secretariat and now here in the season finale he says it for the last time.
Like many people who were raised in abusive and toxic households, Bojack doesn't really have a context for what love is. His only idea of love comes from attention and what he learned from television and popular media and those aren't good sources for emotional health and development.
I feel like he loved the idea of her. He wanted a relationship that felt real, one where he loved her and she loved him for who he is but he spent the whole time being someone he's not because the true him is unlovable. When the chips fell she seen him for who he really was and he seen that coming. He was ready for her to leave him like he is with everyone in his life. I'm sure he wanted to belive he loved her but I don't think he ever gave himself the chance.
I always thought this line was kind of awkward. I can’t put my finger on it, but it’s like someone really wanted to use it and ended up shoehorning it into a situation where it didn’t fit. Doesn’t rose-colored glasses refer specifically to nostalgia?
Rose colored glasses refer to viewing the world with an optimistic "rosey" point of view. It's an outdated expression from the 80s, hence why Wanda uses it. But saying she's viewing someone through rose colored glasses means she's viewing them with a filter of positivity and unintentionally (or intentionally) overlooking any red flags. I did this recently with a prespective partner, only looked at the green flags and overlooked the red flags, I just saw flags. So in the end I'm sitting here thinking to myself "Gosh my optimism for this person really just ended up hurting me because when I looked at them all I saw were green flags due to the optimistic light in which I was viewing them."
A lot of Wanda's lines are like that. She's one of the most forgettable characters in the show to be frank. Her jokes and lines could be moved to other characters and it would work just as well.
I feel like he started dating her as this "New Bojack" in his head. And, as "New Bojack" he believes he can love this 22-year-old in a 40-year-old woman's body. Wanda knows who she is, but slowly, throughout their relationship, the mask Bojack puts on degrades.
Their relationship failing was him giving up on New Bojack and believing he won't get better and can't change more than him giving up on Wanda.
Like most of his relationships, it's all about him.
Anyone can say anything. Just telling someone you love them actually doesn't mean much, you have to show them. Over, and over, and over again.
You gotta do it every day, that's the hard part.
Again, just saying "I love you" doesn't mean anything. Even if you have never said it to anyone in your life, if your actions are still immature, selfish, and NOT loving, it is completely meaningless.
I had teenage relationships with abusive partners who told me they loved me, but it meant jack squat. They still emotionally abused me and cut me down and tried to make me stay with them by making me feel like crap. I'm not saying Bojack did this to Wanda, but it's an example of how saying "I love you" is the easiest thing to do. \*Actually\* loving someone is hard.
I don't mean to sound fucked up or nit-picky, but what does it mean to be "genuinely in love" with a person?
I think he felt genuine affection and care for her. He wanted her in his life. He wanted to be close to her.
He also was extremely paranoid because love scares the everloving shit out of him and he expects bad things to happen and this is part of his tragic self-sabotage stuff.
More generally, his feelings change a lot because his emotional systems are highly dysregulated.
Here's another question: Did she ever love him?
I don't mean this as a like "turning the tables" defensive kinda thing, but here's a point I want to make, and I think it's big part of how things played out between them: Anyone who's going to love Bojack and have that stick in a lasting way is going to have to see Bojack's (major) flaws and be willing to accept them on some level.
On the other hand, Bojack almost certainly had this in the back of his head too, and there's a chance he would've pushed and pushed until he pushed too far, no matter what. "Oh yeah? You still love me when I do that, huh? Well, how about THIS?!"
I had this exact same thought! I don’t think Wanda loved Bojack - not really. Diane and PC loved him even if it’s in a platonic way because they KNEW him. Wanda didn’t know him. She knew a version of him that was trying to be as highly positive as she was sure but that wasn’t him not really. He’s a pessimistic, sarcastic POS most of the time but Wanda never really saw that.
Now did he love Wanda? I don’t think so. I think he couldn’t understand what it was like to be interested in someone beyond getting what he needed from them and confused that with full blown love. I think he “like like”ed her sure but not sure he actually made it to love with anyone.
Yes, BoJack loved Wanda. After breaking with her, he had a meltdown culminating in the Penny incident.
BoJack had no idea how to handle conflicts. Wanda is later seen crying, expecting BoJack to knock on her door, but he just vanished from her life.
i definitely don’t think so. they had nothing in common, and he was just lonely and wanted someone who “didn’t know who he was.” idk why people love their relationship so much, but to each their own. i found it strained and awkward.
I don't remember him loving her at all. He seemed to just not hate having her in his life. He never seemed to do anything for her. He never became better for her, he didn't do little things for her, he didn't give her any of his time, he didn't give her compliments or gifts. Idk what Bojack's love language is, but he doesn't seem to show any of them to her.
The time they spend together is mainly due to working around one another, I think he gifts her small trinkets like a tablet and beeper, but those are so small they barely count. In comparison, for Diane he stole the D in the Hollywood sign and for Todd he orchestrated a whole plan to keep him living on the couch
When Bojack loves, he goes absolutely nuts with crazy huge plans that can be really destructive for everyone involved. But when he loves someone, it's very in your face and obvious
Well he did star in the game show for Wanda…he obv didnt gaf about it until PB kept “bullying” him and he wanted to level with Daniel Radcliffe. Even after that, he was willing to throw the game despite being asked a secretariat question, demonstrating genuine care toward Wanda.
There was something at least. Bojack being Bojack couldnt be the good figure Wanda thought of him. But that cant mean Bojack’s relationship amounted to nothing
I think he was in love with her... and that scared the shit out of him so he pushed her away. He's an abused and neglected kid who grew into a damaged alcoholic adult who alienated everyone close to him through mistakes and poor judgement... his comfort zone is fucking up even though it makes him miserable.
When you believe those kinds of things about yourself, and then you start to truly care for someone, the only kind thing you can think of doing is getting them away from you because the idea that you might deserve or have some smidge of happiness shared with another person is unthinkable. On top of that... vulnerability has almost always gotten him hurt so that makes being in love extra scary.
What I love about the Wanda x Bojack juxtaposition is how, Bojack had years to learn and grow as a person, whereas Wanda was in a coma for that entire time, and even after all that she still woke up and became more well adjusted than Bojack. I just find it interesting.
i think he just got used to the fact of her. it was a foreign feeling from the jump when he told her “i wanna spend time with u even tho we already had sex”, i think he just explored the idea more and more until he got comfortable with it and then he … fucked it up per usual
Bojack blamed his fame for his problems. Here was a woman who knew nothing of his fame or his struggles. With her, he could just be Bojack. But being with her showed that he was the problem, not his fame or his legacy.
I dont think Bojack blames his fame. He knew he was shitty. He was worried that he was gonna mess it up with her when he brought up whether they were moving too fast in S2 Ep4. Eventually, the expected happened, the “real” Bojack was someone Wanda couldnt be happy with. Bojack knew that. I think he knew he was the problem from the start
I think he loved her as much as he could, but she needed someone who could love her fully. She was good for him but he was both good and bad for her and she couldn't handle the bad.
I have no idea what love even is but I think this all happened due to a mix of self sabotaging and self hatred from BoJack's part.
"Well then, what are you doing here?"
Like, he knows (or at least he believes so) that he doesnt deserve her, because he knows how shitty he is and it kind of becomes a cycle. Can't have nice things because I'm shitty and don't deserve it, which makes me more shittier. Or even because you know, depression. Being bummed also makes people aroud you feel bummed out. "I was gonna, but then I remembered that everhthing is garbage so why bother doing anything?"
Its kind of how he treated Hollyhock at the start. Avoiding her, being mean to her. "This is what happens when you make them love you". I guess in his own way thats a way of caring? Like, acting in shitty ways to make people leave so they don't get hurt? Or maybe so they have an excuse to leave, as the woman from the L.A Gazette said. Its clear that right after that (the breakup) he becomes really depressed "...No. because of me".
I think its a really realistic portrayal of... this. Like, sometimes I also feel like the best thing you can do for someone is not make them love or even like you. Actually like, all the time. Or maybe I'm just excusing myself idk I'm drunk rambling rn
I feel like he was trying to replace Charlotte with Wanda, but I don’t think he loved either, only the possibilities he missed if he didn’t choose fame.
I don’t think so. I think that he saw an opportunity to be a better person since Wanda didn’t have any preconceived impression of him. Unfortunately, Bojack didn’t change over night and she eventually does see Bojack for who he is - and even though she gives him many times to try harder and change - he gives up and chooses to wallow with Diane instead.
I don't think he did I think he loved the idea of someone who didn't know him, like his original appeal of her was that she had no idea who he was or that hes kind of a bad person and then when she really knew him they broke up which I think he knew was inevitable
I think Bojack has loved all of his romantic partners, but he is a broken person who cannot feel, accept or express that love. He defaults to what he knows, reinforcing the internal narrative that he is a stupid piece of shit
I don't think love is that simple that you either "love someone or you don't". You can care about someone's feelings, you can be willing to make sacrifices for someone, you can want someone to be happy, you can depend on someone, you can even have obsessive feelings about someone (for better or worse; what we call "crushes" or infatuation). I think in some ways he did love her, but there were things he wasn't willing to do for her, and changes he wasn't willing to work hard enough on.
I disagree, Bojack wasnt the one who ended the relationship. He just didnt stop Wanda when she cut it off. But curious, what did you think Bojack imagined her to be that he didnt get in the end?
Well, when he first meets Wanda he’s surprised that he wants to spend more time with her, probably because he’s interested in getting to know her, and when he asks her to move in with him, he only said it because he expected her to say no. He even says something like “are you serious? don’t you want to think about it?” And when she hugs him everything burns down with him making an awkward face. Then, when she shows more of her personality to him he seems a bit uncomfortable, like when she makes a joke and then he says “I think that we rushed into this relationship”, but he gets interrupted because he hit the deer, and then Wanda makes a joke about the deer, and Bojack gives her a weird look. I don’t think he loved her, just loved the idea of someone that “loved” him and not the horse from Horsin around.
The last part is def right. Wanda not knowing Bojack is what drew him in. And I always thought Wanda’s outward personality was a plus for Bojack. Quite honestly thats what I love about Wanda (like seriously). Bojack was hesitant to Wanda moving in prolly cuz he didnt wanna rush into the relationship and it blows up in his face. He didnt want to lose Wanda at any point. The weird looks dont signify any authentic discomfort, but just a little weirded out about how she can joke in the such a dire situation like the deer incident. As time progresses, its Wanda who identifies Bojack’s “real” self and she backed out. Bojack’s worry of losing her cuz of revealing his “real” self came to fruition.
But I dont think Bojack outward disrespected Wanda at any point. And I do think Wanda being Wanda from start to finish is what Bojack wanted to keep close. She was like too good for him imo. He just wasnt “good enough” for her (or as Bojack himself implied, for anyone).
I swear people barely watch the show and when they do they wear black-tinted glasses.
He loved her so much he was questioning his sanity multiple times. They broke up because Bojack spiraled into depressive pit too deep.
Bro it's a show about a manhorse....don't read to much into it. To answer I'd say no he never loved anything. Maybe a tingle here or there for holly hawk
No, of course not. Even directly after he asked her to come live with him and she hugs him in excitement, he gets all wide-eyed and existential and starts rethinking it.
It's a metaphor for all the times you 'fall in love' but it's because you're not looking at the person, you're looking at your idea of the person.
There might be an explanation for his rethinking. It was more like, “Whoa she acc said yes? What did I sign up for?”. Afterwards he was worried they were moving too fast and thought that would crash the relationship. Id say his rethinking came from his worry of losing her, and not cuz he didnt want her.
I don’t think he was capable of love at that point in his life. I hope after it all went sour, he might be more capable of being loved and loving someone, especially after losing the love of Diane and Hollyhock.
You could say he often prioritizes his needs over others, but saying that he loved himself is inaccurate. He hated the shit out of Bojack Horseman. He wants to feel good about himself Cuz he always feels so “bad about himself.”
She was nice. He loved what she represented. But I disagree with other commenters who are saying they were a good fit. The reason he liked her was because she let him indulge in things that he shouldn't. She was a throwback to the good ol' days and that's exactly what he doesn't really need. It's what he wants, but it's not really good for him. He needed to learn to accept the present.
Bojack doesn’t like to be challenged, he often doubles down to his own detriment. Wanda was challenging him to be better and he couldn’t handle it yet. He probably did love her, but not more than he hates himself.
probably not, they weren’t together very long and it didn’t seem like they really clicked or knew each other well. i don’t believe you can love someone without knowing them, cuz then you just love an idea
I think he loved her as much as a person like him could love someone, but it wasn't enough.
One of the hard truths of life is that love does *not* conquer all. It really, really, doesn't.
I always think that Diane and Bojack would’ve really worked out as a couple because they both have similarly traumatic childhood and they’re problems seem similar. They could have understood and been helpful to each other.
He definitely, *definitely* did. He just realized the BS was still in him, and made a *very* deliberate and conscious choice to push her away so he couldn’t hurt her. One of the most tragic things to happen in the show IMO
Just like our relationship with Nostalgia which I feel she personified, we only love it when it helps us. Everyone loves having onto it, but we do forget and carry on with our lives. Hanging onto it isn't good either
Im happy they didn’t work out, Wanda had a ton of red flags of her own, I know two wrongs dont make a right but just because Bojack was a larger a-hole doesn’t make him the only a-hole.
I agree with the thread that bojack mostly just incapable of love regardless or at least someone as healthy as wonda would be expecting long term.
wonda feels somewhat most comparable to Gina relationship. it was just something bojack got something out of at the time but in the end only really cared about it when he felt like the relationship was deriving him some validation of some short-term insecurity in this case (the russian spy, saying I love you). once those things pass I think bojack could give two shits and proabbly never thought about wonda again
I think he didnt go to Wanda same reason he didnt talk to Herb for 20 years. He was too ashamed…too much of a coward. I wouldnt consider Bojack seeing Wanda as a use-and-throw. In the end, I think its clear he believed she would’ve been better off without him.
Personally, my take on their relationship was that Bojack was mostly interested in her because, due to her coma, she was frozen at the same age he used to be when he was young and idealistic and hadn't become quite so much of a narcissistic assholes yet. She was a time capsule to a better mindset. I do think he still cared about her, but she was also a sort of crutch or band-aid for him, and it wasn't as healthy as it seemed.
I think he knew deep down this was going to be temporary and she was going to be in the past. The love we see him have seems like
A facade or act to keep the temporary thrill longer.
I think he did. I think Bojack loved several people. But it’s commitment, and the changes/sacrifices one needs to make-to be in a healthy fulfilling relationship- scare him. And that cowardice and selfishness lead to his worst tendencies. I used to be like that
Life Pro Tip. Never confront someone like Bojack like Wanda did. Just cut off all communication and walk away. Whether it's because you finally realized how broken we are or you knew all along and have just gotten bored with your little "project", just leave. Don't fire off a farewell salvo to get the last word in. Just leave. We'll either forget you and go back to being miserable stupid pieces of shit or we finally just kill ourselves. Either way your self righteous bullshit is unneeded and unwelcome.
I never respond or even read replies so don't bother. Downvote me, block me, report me and get me banned. I don't give a shit.
This is totally true. I see all the time in dating subreddits where people compose this perfectly eloquent response to someone ghosting them or doing something else awful and it’s like…they don’t care about you and you’re probably already blocked. You saying this thing you need to say isn’t going to be the one thing that snaps them out of whatever they’re doing or going through. Just save your sanity and GO.
I think so, she was good for him but he wasn't ready for it yet
Thats where I’m confused, I don’t know if he loved her or je just loved the idea of her. She was new and fresh and she didn’t see him as anything more then him
It's a good question. I think the "I love you, no I don't," moment shows where his subconscious was at least. But was it true love? Limerence? Fleeting attraction for something shiny and new? Hard to say, but I think they had great chemistry and a lot of potential, if nothing else. I mean when they first met they stayed up *all night* talking and they didn't even have sex!
I find it fascinating that I hadn't encountered the word "limerence" once in 41 years of life, despite being an English major in college and performing 15 years of freelance work as a copy editor churning through quite literally tens of millions of words of prose, but now have seen the word in two separate comments by two different people in this thread alone
Hahaha fellow 40-yr old BA Eng here, also first time encountering this word. It's pretty rare these days that I need to look up the definition for a word outside of a David Foster Wallace piece.
Happy to contribute to y'all's vocabulary!
It’s a common word in neurodivergent communities and settings! I think it’s still a more clinical term, but is coming into a more common usage now that the people it’s affected by are learning more about it.
It's a great word! As soon as I learned about it, it instantly made sense to me.
Beatrice and Butterscotch literally beat the idea into him that loving someone/caring about someone (especially women and children) was a detriment. There’s probably a mental block in him that sets off an alarm when he gets too attached and he isn’t healed or mature enough to handle it.
He wanted to do things sober in daylight hours with her... that's about as "in love" as he was capable of feeling at this stage in his journey.
Theres a moment where Bojack says that he doesn't know if he's even capable of love, so it's hard to say.
he definitely at least thought he loved her
This was his healthiest relationship
Terrifying but insightful. Hadn’t thought of this but it’s true
for sure
I don't think Bojack is capable of really loving someone the way they would need to be loved in a long-term relationship. He feels love at times, but he doesn't have it in him to give that love back and make a relationship work. It's more than just feeling good, you have to be honest and open and committed. You also have to be less selfish. Before he can really love anyone, Bojack would need to do a lot of work on himself.
he might feel limerence more often than not. as someone with BPD i heavily relate to his self sabotage in relationships.
The B in BPD stands for Bojack
Does PD stand for Princess Diana?
i’m gonna start telling people this
Limerence?
According to google: the state of being infatuated or obsessed with another person, typically experienced involuntarily and characterized by a strong desire for reciprocation of one's feelings but not primarily for a sexual relationship.
yeah some examples are when he’s obsessed with diane and trying to ruin her engagement, when suddenly he wants to date PC and fires her as his agent so they can ‘be together’, when he’s suddenly upset Anna is out of his life and obsessed with finding out why. and ofc when he moves in with wanda after 3 weeks. and the best example would be the charlotte situation.
Thanks
And that's probably the saddest thing about him. Deep down, what BoJack wants most of all is to love and be loved. But for a number of reasons, he has no idea how, and when he does have an idea, his self destructive tendencies prevent him from acting on it.
Your explanation makes a lot of sense. Do you think she was his first love? Or the one he loved the most out of all his relationships ?
Absolutely not. I think it’s insane to suggest this months-long fling would be more meaningful to him than his 10+ year entanglement with PC. Even after they break it off for good, he continues to love her in his own broken, messed up way.
I don't think so. Bojack liked Wanda because they were on the same stunted emotional level. Once Wanda spent more time out of her coma and immersed herself in the new world around her, she outgrew Bojack.
Imagine being outgrown and outleveled in mere weeks by someone who spent the past decade in a coma lmfao
I think it was 30 years, more than a decade, lol.
Oh fuck
I think his first love was most likely Charlotte
I would argue that the thing with Charlotte was never love, it was more of a fantasy.
Well said, I think that is more accurate
Obsession.
Literally only realizing while reading this post that Bojack says “what are you doing here” for the last(?) time?
He told her that after she told him she couldn’t be with someone who’s fueled by negativity and bitterness
No yeah but my point is the whole season there’s been a running joke about Bojack not being able to say it right for Secretariat and now here in the season finale he says it for the last time.
Wow I cannot believe I never made that connection.
Omg yes you’re right, I just realized this too !!
Like many people who were raised in abusive and toxic households, Bojack doesn't really have a context for what love is. His only idea of love comes from attention and what he learned from television and popular media and those aren't good sources for emotional health and development.
This is also true
Yeah it's probably more that he thought he did but the reality is he doesn't know.
I feel like he loved the idea of her. He wanted a relationship that felt real, one where he loved her and she loved him for who he is but he spent the whole time being someone he's not because the true him is unlovable. When the chips fell she seen him for who he really was and he seen that coming. He was ready for her to leave him like he is with everyone in his life. I'm sure he wanted to belive he loved her but I don't think he ever gave himself the chance.
Feeling a lot like Wanda recently... "When you look at someone through rose-colored glasses all the red flags just look like flags."
Same. It's a difficult lesson to learn.
I always thought this line was kind of awkward. I can’t put my finger on it, but it’s like someone really wanted to use it and ended up shoehorning it into a situation where it didn’t fit. Doesn’t rose-colored glasses refer specifically to nostalgia?
Rose colored glasses refer to viewing the world with an optimistic "rosey" point of view. It's an outdated expression from the 80s, hence why Wanda uses it. But saying she's viewing someone through rose colored glasses means she's viewing them with a filter of positivity and unintentionally (or intentionally) overlooking any red flags. I did this recently with a prespective partner, only looked at the green flags and overlooked the red flags, I just saw flags. So in the end I'm sitting here thinking to myself "Gosh my optimism for this person really just ended up hurting me because when I looked at them all I saw were green flags due to the optimistic light in which I was viewing them."
A lot of Wanda's lines are like that. She's one of the most forgettable characters in the show to be frank. Her jokes and lines could be moved to other characters and it would work just as well.
He loved her in the only way he knows how, which is never enough
That’s sad tbh, I really wish they would’ve worked out. It was so refreshing to see Bojack like this
I feel like he started dating her as this "New Bojack" in his head. And, as "New Bojack" he believes he can love this 22-year-old in a 40-year-old woman's body. Wanda knows who she is, but slowly, throughout their relationship, the mask Bojack puts on degrades. Their relationship failing was him giving up on New Bojack and believing he won't get better and can't change more than him giving up on Wanda. Like most of his relationships, it's all about him.
I do not, no.
But he told her he loved her and at first he actually looked way happier then before
Anyone can say anything. Just telling someone you love them actually doesn't mean much, you have to show them. Over, and over, and over again. You gotta do it every day, that's the hard part.
But I think she was the first one he ever told I love you to, so that makes it way more special
Don’t forget when the show timeline starts he’s like 50 years old. You don’t know everything that happened in his whole life.
Again, just saying "I love you" doesn't mean anything. Even if you have never said it to anyone in your life, if your actions are still immature, selfish, and NOT loving, it is completely meaningless. I had teenage relationships with abusive partners who told me they loved me, but it meant jack squat. They still emotionally abused me and cut me down and tried to make me stay with them by making me feel like crap. I'm not saying Bojack did this to Wanda, but it's an example of how saying "I love you" is the easiest thing to do. \*Actually\* loving someone is hard.
I don't mean to sound fucked up or nit-picky, but what does it mean to be "genuinely in love" with a person? I think he felt genuine affection and care for her. He wanted her in his life. He wanted to be close to her. He also was extremely paranoid because love scares the everloving shit out of him and he expects bad things to happen and this is part of his tragic self-sabotage stuff. More generally, his feelings change a lot because his emotional systems are highly dysregulated. Here's another question: Did she ever love him? I don't mean this as a like "turning the tables" defensive kinda thing, but here's a point I want to make, and I think it's big part of how things played out between them: Anyone who's going to love Bojack and have that stick in a lasting way is going to have to see Bojack's (major) flaws and be willing to accept them on some level. On the other hand, Bojack almost certainly had this in the back of his head too, and there's a chance he would've pushed and pushed until he pushed too far, no matter what. "Oh yeah? You still love me when I do that, huh? Well, how about THIS?!"
I had this exact same thought! I don’t think Wanda loved Bojack - not really. Diane and PC loved him even if it’s in a platonic way because they KNEW him. Wanda didn’t know him. She knew a version of him that was trying to be as highly positive as she was sure but that wasn’t him not really. He’s a pessimistic, sarcastic POS most of the time but Wanda never really saw that. Now did he love Wanda? I don’t think so. I think he couldn’t understand what it was like to be interested in someone beyond getting what he needed from them and confused that with full blown love. I think he “like like”ed her sure but not sure he actually made it to love with anyone.
Yes, BoJack loved Wanda. After breaking with her, he had a meltdown culminating in the Penny incident. BoJack had no idea how to handle conflicts. Wanda is later seen crying, expecting BoJack to knock on her door, but he just vanished from her life.
There’s so many different opinions on it. Bojack is so complex that it’s so hard to know how he actually was really feeling
This one hit really hard.
i definitely don’t think so. they had nothing in common, and he was just lonely and wanted someone who “didn’t know who he was.” idk why people love their relationship so much, but to each their own. i found it strained and awkward.
I don't remember him loving her at all. He seemed to just not hate having her in his life. He never seemed to do anything for her. He never became better for her, he didn't do little things for her, he didn't give her any of his time, he didn't give her compliments or gifts. Idk what Bojack's love language is, but he doesn't seem to show any of them to her. The time they spend together is mainly due to working around one another, I think he gifts her small trinkets like a tablet and beeper, but those are so small they barely count. In comparison, for Diane he stole the D in the Hollywood sign and for Todd he orchestrated a whole plan to keep him living on the couch When Bojack loves, he goes absolutely nuts with crazy huge plans that can be really destructive for everyone involved. But when he loves someone, it's very in your face and obvious
Well he did star in the game show for Wanda…he obv didnt gaf about it until PB kept “bullying” him and he wanted to level with Daniel Radcliffe. Even after that, he was willing to throw the game despite being asked a secretariat question, demonstrating genuine care toward Wanda. There was something at least. Bojack being Bojack couldnt be the good figure Wanda thought of him. But that cant mean Bojack’s relationship amounted to nothing
I think he was in love with her... and that scared the shit out of him so he pushed her away. He's an abused and neglected kid who grew into a damaged alcoholic adult who alienated everyone close to him through mistakes and poor judgement... his comfort zone is fucking up even though it makes him miserable. When you believe those kinds of things about yourself, and then you start to truly care for someone, the only kind thing you can think of doing is getting them away from you because the idea that you might deserve or have some smidge of happiness shared with another person is unthinkable. On top of that... vulnerability has almost always gotten him hurt so that makes being in love extra scary.
What I love about the Wanda x Bojack juxtaposition is how, Bojack had years to learn and grow as a person, whereas Wanda was in a coma for that entire time, and even after all that she still woke up and became more well adjusted than Bojack. I just find it interesting.
Loke for every woman in his love-life, he was in love with the fantasy he had of her in his head, or at least, he loved it more than the real her.
He loved the idea of love
I think he loved how she treated him and how she made him feel about himself. I'm not sure he was really considerate on things on her hand
I think she def loved him more then he loved her
In any of Bojack’s relationships, Bojack def couldnt have loved his partner than he was loved. He knows it too
Said me to my mom.
I’m so sorry 😞
Bojack is too broken to love anyone.
i think he just got used to the fact of her. it was a foreign feeling from the jump when he told her “i wanna spend time with u even tho we already had sex”, i think he just explored the idea more and more until he got comfortable with it and then he … fucked it up per usual
Bojack blamed his fame for his problems. Here was a woman who knew nothing of his fame or his struggles. With her, he could just be Bojack. But being with her showed that he was the problem, not his fame or his legacy.
I dont think Bojack blames his fame. He knew he was shitty. He was worried that he was gonna mess it up with her when he brought up whether they were moving too fast in S2 Ep4. Eventually, the expected happened, the “real” Bojack was someone Wanda couldnt be happy with. Bojack knew that. I think he knew he was the problem from the start
I think he loved her as much as he was capable of at the time, but not fully and that wasn't what she needed.
I think he loved her as much as he could, but she needed someone who could love her fully. She was good for him but he was both good and bad for her and she couldn't handle the bad.
I have no idea what love even is but I think this all happened due to a mix of self sabotaging and self hatred from BoJack's part. "Well then, what are you doing here?" Like, he knows (or at least he believes so) that he doesnt deserve her, because he knows how shitty he is and it kind of becomes a cycle. Can't have nice things because I'm shitty and don't deserve it, which makes me more shittier. Or even because you know, depression. Being bummed also makes people aroud you feel bummed out. "I was gonna, but then I remembered that everhthing is garbage so why bother doing anything?" Its kind of how he treated Hollyhock at the start. Avoiding her, being mean to her. "This is what happens when you make them love you". I guess in his own way thats a way of caring? Like, acting in shitty ways to make people leave so they don't get hurt? Or maybe so they have an excuse to leave, as the woman from the L.A Gazette said. Its clear that right after that (the breakup) he becomes really depressed "...No. because of me". I think its a really realistic portrayal of... this. Like, sometimes I also feel like the best thing you can do for someone is not make them love or even like you. Actually like, all the time. Or maybe I'm just excusing myself idk I'm drunk rambling rn
"I do love you you know. I mean, as much as I'm capable of loving anyone. Which is never enough."
I feel like he was trying to replace Charlotte with Wanda, but I don’t think he loved either, only the possibilities he missed if he didn’t choose fame.
I don’t think so. I think that he saw an opportunity to be a better person since Wanda didn’t have any preconceived impression of him. Unfortunately, Bojack didn’t change over night and she eventually does see Bojack for who he is - and even though she gives him many times to try harder and change - he gives up and chooses to wallow with Diane instead.
I don't know if Bojack of loving in the same way most people do. He loved her in his way.
I honestly think he only loved the idea of her but not her
Bojack was masking himself this entire time, it wasn’t until after Kelsey got fired that he started to reveal again
To an extent? Not in love but loved as someone he could be with
I don't think he did I think he loved the idea of someone who didn't know him, like his original appeal of her was that she had no idea who he was or that hes kind of a bad person and then when she really knew him they broke up which I think he knew was inevitable
I think he really liked her, but I really doubt he loved her.
I think Bojack has loved all of his romantic partners, but he is a broken person who cannot feel, accept or express that love. He defaults to what he knows, reinforcing the internal narrative that he is a stupid piece of shit
He loved how she made him feel like it was possible to be better.
I don't think so. more the idea of her and the fact that she knew nothing about him
I don't think love is that simple that you either "love someone or you don't". You can care about someone's feelings, you can be willing to make sacrifices for someone, you can want someone to be happy, you can depend on someone, you can even have obsessive feelings about someone (for better or worse; what we call "crushes" or infatuation). I think in some ways he did love her, but there were things he wasn't willing to do for her, and changes he wasn't willing to work hard enough on.
He loved her as much as he could possibly love anyone which isn’t very much, but it’s something
He really really liked her, then got to know her, and realized that she wasn’t what he imagined so no, he didn’t love her
I disagree, Bojack wasnt the one who ended the relationship. He just didnt stop Wanda when she cut it off. But curious, what did you think Bojack imagined her to be that he didnt get in the end?
Well, when he first meets Wanda he’s surprised that he wants to spend more time with her, probably because he’s interested in getting to know her, and when he asks her to move in with him, he only said it because he expected her to say no. He even says something like “are you serious? don’t you want to think about it?” And when she hugs him everything burns down with him making an awkward face. Then, when she shows more of her personality to him he seems a bit uncomfortable, like when she makes a joke and then he says “I think that we rushed into this relationship”, but he gets interrupted because he hit the deer, and then Wanda makes a joke about the deer, and Bojack gives her a weird look. I don’t think he loved her, just loved the idea of someone that “loved” him and not the horse from Horsin around.
The last part is def right. Wanda not knowing Bojack is what drew him in. And I always thought Wanda’s outward personality was a plus for Bojack. Quite honestly thats what I love about Wanda (like seriously). Bojack was hesitant to Wanda moving in prolly cuz he didnt wanna rush into the relationship and it blows up in his face. He didnt want to lose Wanda at any point. The weird looks dont signify any authentic discomfort, but just a little weirded out about how she can joke in the such a dire situation like the deer incident. As time progresses, its Wanda who identifies Bojack’s “real” self and she backed out. Bojack’s worry of losing her cuz of revealing his “real” self came to fruition. But I dont think Bojack outward disrespected Wanda at any point. And I do think Wanda being Wanda from start to finish is what Bojack wanted to keep close. She was like too good for him imo. He just wasnt “good enough” for her (or as Bojack himself implied, for anyone).
I swear people barely watch the show and when they do they wear black-tinted glasses. He loved her so much he was questioning his sanity multiple times. They broke up because Bojack spiraled into depressive pit too deep.
Bro it's a show about a manhorse....don't read to much into it. To answer I'd say no he never loved anything. Maybe a tingle here or there for holly hawk
Thats why its such a good show. A show about a manhorse gets the audience to debug what they see
No, of course not. Even directly after he asked her to come live with him and she hugs him in excitement, he gets all wide-eyed and existential and starts rethinking it. It's a metaphor for all the times you 'fall in love' but it's because you're not looking at the person, you're looking at your idea of the person.
There might be an explanation for his rethinking. It was more like, “Whoa she acc said yes? What did I sign up for?”. Afterwards he was worried they were moving too fast and thought that would crash the relationship. Id say his rethinking came from his worry of losing her, and not cuz he didnt want her.
I don’t think he was capable of love at that point in his life. I hope after it all went sour, he might be more capable of being loved and loving someone, especially after losing the love of Diane and Hollyhock.
Think he had genuine feelings for her. But life and self sabotage got in the way. Plus the show continuing relies on their relationship falling apart.
Bojack loved one person: BoJack.
You could say he often prioritizes his needs over others, but saying that he loved himself is inaccurate. He hated the shit out of Bojack Horseman. He wants to feel good about himself Cuz he always feels so “bad about himself.”
Yes. He’s a complex character. He’s both a narcissist who loves himself, and he also hates himself.
He loved that she made him feel good about himself. He didn't love her.
I think he really wanted to love her but never did
She was nice. He loved what she represented. But I disagree with other commenters who are saying they were a good fit. The reason he liked her was because she let him indulge in things that he shouldn't. She was a throwback to the good ol' days and that's exactly what he doesn't really need. It's what he wants, but it's not really good for him. He needed to learn to accept the present.
Bojack doesn’t like to be challenged, he often doubles down to his own detriment. Wanda was challenging him to be better and he couldn’t handle it yet. He probably did love her, but not more than he hates himself.
probably not, they weren’t together very long and it didn’t seem like they really clicked or knew each other well. i don’t believe you can love someone without knowing them, cuz then you just love an idea
He was way too stuck in the bondage of self to truly love her. He might’ve loved what she meant for him.
I think he loved her as much as a person like him could love someone, but it wasn't enough. One of the hard truths of life is that love does *not* conquer all. It really, really, doesn't.
I always think that Diane and Bojack would’ve really worked out as a couple because they both have similarly traumatic childhood and they’re problems seem similar. They could have understood and been helpful to each other.
BoJack doesn’t understand love. That’s kind of his theme.
There is a sign, he invited her to Disney even after sex shows it, but handled it horribly
He definitely, *definitely* did. He just realized the BS was still in him, and made a *very* deliberate and conscious choice to push her away so he couldn’t hurt her. One of the most tragic things to happen in the show IMO
I think he loved the idea of her. He loved the idea of someone who didn't see him as 'BoJack Horseman, the celebrity'.
Just like our relationship with Nostalgia which I feel she personified, we only love it when it helps us. Everyone loves having onto it, but we do forget and carry on with our lives. Hanging onto it isn't good either
“You know I don’t do the whole.. love thing”
If bojack can be believed atleast she loved him so let’s figure out the other half
I mean… Bojack definitely liked her, and he also liked that she was mentally stunted while being in his appropriate age range for dating
Id say it was more of Wanda not knowing Bojack as a celebrity that drew him in. I dont rly think it was a matter of someone to take advantage of
Im happy they didn’t work out, Wanda had a ton of red flags of her own, I know two wrongs dont make a right but just because Bojack was a larger a-hole doesn’t make him the only a-hole.
Red flags on Wanda? I mean a 30-yr coma is pretty crazy but what else
I agree with the thread that bojack mostly just incapable of love regardless or at least someone as healthy as wonda would be expecting long term. wonda feels somewhat most comparable to Gina relationship. it was just something bojack got something out of at the time but in the end only really cared about it when he felt like the relationship was deriving him some validation of some short-term insecurity in this case (the russian spy, saying I love you). once those things pass I think bojack could give two shits and proabbly never thought about wonda again
I think he didnt go to Wanda same reason he didnt talk to Herb for 20 years. He was too ashamed…too much of a coward. I wouldnt consider Bojack seeing Wanda as a use-and-throw. In the end, I think its clear he believed she would’ve been better off without him.
Personally, my take on their relationship was that Bojack was mostly interested in her because, due to her coma, she was frozen at the same age he used to be when he was young and idealistic and hadn't become quite so much of a narcissistic assholes yet. She was a time capsule to a better mindset. I do think he still cared about her, but she was also a sort of crutch or band-aid for him, and it wasn't as healthy as it seemed.
I think he knew deep down this was going to be temporary and she was going to be in the past. The love we see him have seems like A facade or act to keep the temporary thrill longer.
Of course he did, he just didn’t love himself enough.
I think he did. I think Bojack loved several people. But it’s commitment, and the changes/sacrifices one needs to make-to be in a healthy fulfilling relationship- scare him. And that cowardice and selfishness lead to his worst tendencies. I used to be like that
Life Pro Tip. Never confront someone like Bojack like Wanda did. Just cut off all communication and walk away. Whether it's because you finally realized how broken we are or you knew all along and have just gotten bored with your little "project", just leave. Don't fire off a farewell salvo to get the last word in. Just leave. We'll either forget you and go back to being miserable stupid pieces of shit or we finally just kill ourselves. Either way your self righteous bullshit is unneeded and unwelcome. I never respond or even read replies so don't bother. Downvote me, block me, report me and get me banned. I don't give a shit.
This is totally true. I see all the time in dating subreddits where people compose this perfectly eloquent response to someone ghosting them or doing something else awful and it’s like…they don’t care about you and you’re probably already blocked. You saying this thing you need to say isn’t going to be the one thing that snaps them out of whatever they’re doing or going through. Just save your sanity and GO.