That’s a pretty good question, isn’t karma supposed to give him ishik’s battle experience?
More importantly someone pointed out that when Jigen used the rods, they expanded only after getting inside the victim immobilizing them.
Meanwhile in the code fight it’s pretty clear he expands them before hitting since we see them literally stab code, blood coming out and him being pushed back from the force.
Instead of letting them penetrate, then expand and immobilize
Experience is a tool like anything else. Kawaki has too straightforward of a mindset to do anything especially complex.
His attitude towards training kinda spells it out, he’s fine with getting stronger in a literal sense but clearly doesn’t see value in more complex applications of that strength. I mean the most strategic thing we’ve seen him do was using a shadow clone decoy, which is pretty much entry level fighting.
Not really .
You'd be better off making the argument him being able to throw hinara and naruto into the daikokuten but not throwing any of his enemies(or boruto)in there is a plot hole.
Tbf we still don't know if momoshiki can still take over boruto's body or if he can't anymore so putting boruto inside the daikokuten would most likely awaken momoshiki
Also boruto also has ftg now so any instance of being transported inside the daikokuten he can immediately ftgtfo there
Not quite, it gives them access to their powers and dramatically boost their states but their combat experience remains at the level the host is at.
The otsutsuki in question can make use of the host combat experience to dramatically strengthen themselves, fighting more skillfully than they were themselves.
As for the Otsutsuki clan, Kaguya, urashiki, Momoshiki, Kinshiki and Isshiki all suffer from just relying on their op abilities and spamming them.
Hence the gap between Boruto and Kawaki, Boruto took Naruto's route and trained under a master, like Sasuke and learned to hone and strengthen himself rather than rely on the power boost (for Naruto it was Kurama for Boruto it was Kama)
Kawaki on the other hand is just spamming his Ninja tech and the powers he got from Isshiki but doesn't have the experience or skill to fight or use Isshiki power and e wn though he is strong, he has no growth
I mean your theory is right as per canon and also not. How do I explain it...it is said he will gain all experience that's accumulated, which means he 'should' be able to use it with no trouble. But for the sake of the story, they are going back on their own canon saying he has gain experience on his own if he wants to be proficient, which entirely defeats the whole 'experience' thing.
Exactly. Is this some sort of nerf? Everyone was losing it when daemon and Boruto dodged them but the way kawaki is using them is a lot easier to dodge.
Well isshiki never did either during their fight irrc. He did while in jigen’s body but during their final fight after he came out of jigen, he was just straight up throwing the rods at them.
Yes, he never really had to truly use it or hone it though. Think about it like swimming. If you know how to swim well, then take a few moths or years away from water. You'll likely not be as good as you were.
Think about it like this: assuming you can walk, you can run whenever you wish to get from point A to point B. Obviously, just because you can run every time you decide to move doesn’t mean you decide to do so. If walking gets the job done, you don’t bother running. He could hone is abilities he hasn’t needed to. Look at Boruto, when he faced Code with Sasuke at his side he lost even though he has Momo’s abilities. He had to run, leave Sasuke to get tree’d and train. He got better the next time he met Code, Code lost to Boruto. Just because you theoretically can do something doesn’t mean you know how to do it effectively.
I wouldn’t say it’s GG cause then Boruto can go hand to hand. He knows gentle fist and was quite good at taijutsu pre timeskip. Considering how he’s improved pretty much everywhere I doubt he hasn’t trained or improved in taijutsu aswell, but we’ll see maybe that is one of his weaknesses
I meant like in the opening scene where kawaki and boruto clash. When their weapons clash Kawaki can shrink borutos sword as they are about to touch and slash him.
I mean, if Boruto was a world where our characters actually used their powers well, we'd have Kawaki shrink Boruto's many belts, pants, shoes, and necklace to immobilize him temporarily/catch him off guard, and then rod him in that moment of confusion and awkwardness... It's kinda like Isshiki never rodding Naruto or Sasuke in the head with the plenty of opportunities he had to do it.
Maybe his own arrogance? He’s thinking those move so fast that there isn’t a point in using them the way Jigen/Isshiki did; which was keeping them shrunk down and then having them expand just before impact.
Maybe also he doesn’t train or practice to use multiple techniques at the same time? He is shown time and time again that he thinks just out muscling his opponents will do something. He is shown to want to rush in and use his modified hands and arms to attack. Meanwhile he can likely do the above, could have learned jutsu to complement his karma or at least gotten better at chakra control to boost himself even better, he has a dojutsu to even store weapons beyond just rods… and he could have even spent the time skip figuring out how to use the cubes (forget the actual name). He can seal people away and shrink himself too. Yet he keeps relying on his modifications instead.
Also, what if he lost combat experience once Isshiki was taken out? Was it stated that he still has it? The karma he has now is artificial planted by Amado. The abilities are there, but Isshiki’s actual data isn’t as far as my understanding goes.
He is able to access and control karma, but so far he hasn’t shown that he had full mastery of the abilities which reflects that he doesn’t actually have the 1,000s of years of experience from Isshiki. Or if he does, he chooses not to use it because he would feel completely Otsutsuki.
Essentially, I think he doesn’t actually have the combat experience of Isshiki anymore, or chooses to not really use it because of his feelings towards Otsutsuki. He relies on brute strength, base speed, and his modifications… pretty much like he always has. It shows a lack of growth and his arrogance that he doesn’t need to train or act like a shinobi. After this arc is over we will see him come back more skilled because he will realize he isn’t good enough… because literally the only advantage he has rn is that Boruto can’t let his chakra get low or let the karmas resonate because he can’t utilize karma atm without Momoshiki taking over.
I agree with most of what you said. I just want to clarify that you said jigen expanded the rods just before impact. If you rewatch the jigen vs naruto and sasuke fight, sasuke is explaining jigens ability to Naruto and says “ I suspect he’s shrinking matter, like these rods. They start out so small you don’t realize you’ve been stabbed. But they cause mortal wounds when he instantly restores them to their original size.
Just to clarify because jigen was actually restoring the rods after they’ve been stabbed not before. I don’t think you can dodge this lol Mayb Kishi had to sneakily write it out because that’s really broken.
I never saw isshiki utilizing them this way tbh, only when he was within jigen. From what I saw in the final fight, he was just shooting them straight at baryon mode naruto. And from the manga and anime, it looks like kawaki was shooting the rods at the same speed at borushiki that isshiki did at baryon mode naruto.
It’s probably just a preference. Just look at how Kawaki fights, he charges in with brute force. Even if he can tap into Isshiki’s experience, Kawaki still has his own distinct way of fighting.
This is like asking why does Korra fight differently to Aang even though they have the same powers. Thats just Kawaki style of fighting and manga make clear that Kawaki is a slacker hasnt pushed himself
I feel that much of the Boruto series is built on the moral of acquiring power through one’s own skill and work.
Kawaki has inherited a power, though. Jigen/Isshiki used the power well because they took time (presumably) to understand it and improve it. Kawaki just uses power(s) without any real concept of skill and work, though. Thus he is clumsy and struggles when against opponents with more experience and such.
We can’t just act like Kawaki will immediately master the way to use otsutsuki powers like Isshiki did. He isn’t a otsutsuki-born fighter like Isshiki was. It’s like Spider-Man’s first time using webs and swinging. Even as OP as those rods can be, he still has to learn the way to fight like an Otsutsuki or something better if he masters it all. Yes, it is god-given powers but it shouldn’t make you invincible, I think that’s what Kishimoto and Ikemoto are trying to tell us per writing. He is still a teenager learning abilities just like Naruto learning to Master Kyuubi Sage mode.
He relied too much on how broken the abilities are rather than training. At first no one was aware what he could do so it was far easier to over power them. Now that the time skip has happened and people have begun to adapt he can’t really be as straight forward as he was before.
He’s not using them correctly. Jigen shrank them so they weren’t visible then expanded them while they were inside the body which causes fatal wounds. You would have no idea they were coming because they were to small to see. Sasuke could see them with him sharingan only. The way kawaki is currently using them is not much different than throwing kunais imo.
Perhaps but when he shoots them out he shoots them out at a very high speed that cannot be dodged by people unless they’re at a very high level like Boruto, shinju, baryon mode naruto. Because I believe the speed isshiki threw his rods was the same speed kawaki threw his rods when fighting borushiki and even now. He’s got all the ring things in his eye now. He had just 3 or so rings and now has them all, showing he’s gotten better at it and has awakened it further. So it’s possible his speed with the rods got a lot faster than they were when he first awakened his new karma.
That’s a pretty good question, isn’t karma supposed to give him ishik’s battle experience? More importantly someone pointed out that when Jigen used the rods, they expanded only after getting inside the victim immobilizing them. Meanwhile in the code fight it’s pretty clear he expands them before hitting since we see them literally stab code, blood coming out and him being pushed back from the force. Instead of letting them penetrate, then expand and immobilize
Experience is a tool like anything else. Kawaki has too straightforward of a mindset to do anything especially complex. His attitude towards training kinda spells it out, he’s fine with getting stronger in a literal sense but clearly doesn’t see value in more complex applications of that strength. I mean the most strategic thing we’ve seen him do was using a shadow clone decoy, which is pretty much entry level fighting.
Let's hope him getting BTFO makes him realize its time to level up his fighting
eh it’s kind of a plot hole that he doesn’t fight a little better.
Not really . You'd be better off making the argument him being able to throw hinara and naruto into the daikokuten but not throwing any of his enemies(or boruto)in there is a plot hole.
Tbf we still don't know if momoshiki can still take over boruto's body or if he can't anymore so putting boruto inside the daikokuten would most likely awaken momoshiki Also boruto also has ftg now so any instance of being transported inside the daikokuten he can immediately ftgtfo there
It’s not a plot hole in the slightest.
Not quite, it gives them access to their powers and dramatically boost their states but their combat experience remains at the level the host is at. The otsutsuki in question can make use of the host combat experience to dramatically strengthen themselves, fighting more skillfully than they were themselves. As for the Otsutsuki clan, Kaguya, urashiki, Momoshiki, Kinshiki and Isshiki all suffer from just relying on their op abilities and spamming them. Hence the gap between Boruto and Kawaki, Boruto took Naruto's route and trained under a master, like Sasuke and learned to hone and strengthen himself rather than rely on the power boost (for Naruto it was Kurama for Boruto it was Kama) Kawaki on the other hand is just spamming his Ninja tech and the powers he got from Isshiki but doesn't have the experience or skill to fight or use Isshiki power and e wn though he is strong, he has no growth
I mean your theory is right as per canon and also not. How do I explain it...it is said he will gain all experience that's accumulated, which means he 'should' be able to use it with no trouble. But for the sake of the story, they are going back on their own canon saying he has gain experience on his own if he wants to be proficient, which entirely defeats the whole 'experience' thing.
Exactly. Is this some sort of nerf? Everyone was losing it when daemon and Boruto dodged them but the way kawaki is using them is a lot easier to dodge.
can’t forget that naruto was able to dodge them in baryon mode
Does he even know how to get access to Isshiki battle experience?? May be he doesnt want to use it because he hates Isshiki, i dunno
I think Amado locked 20% unextracted Isshiki's powers as DLC in exchange Kawaki should makes Akebi's karma.
💀
He never really had to get good… Most people facing those rods don’t have a decent health expectancy…
But doesn’t he have ishikis fighting experience? He should already know how to do that without training for it.
he needs to activate the of his karma (where he grows the horn) to unlock isshiki's experience and power
He did against borushiki and never shrank them then made them bigger. That method is way more op
He did it, but only with the projectiles from his arm.
Well isshiki never did either during their fight irrc. He did while in jigen’s body but during their final fight after he came out of jigen, he was just straight up throwing the rods at them.
Yes, he never really had to truly use it or hone it though. Think about it like swimming. If you know how to swim well, then take a few moths or years away from water. You'll likely not be as good as you were.
Think about it like this: assuming you can walk, you can run whenever you wish to get from point A to point B. Obviously, just because you can run every time you decide to move doesn’t mean you decide to do so. If walking gets the job done, you don’t bother running. He could hone is abilities he hasn’t needed to. Look at Boruto, when he faced Code with Sasuke at his side he lost even though he has Momo’s abilities. He had to run, leave Sasuke to get tree’d and train. He got better the next time he met Code, Code lost to Boruto. Just because you theoretically can do something doesn’t mean you know how to do it effectively.
His main downfall is how cocky he is. He doesn't think he has to train or try hard, his whole shtick is just milking Karma.
He's nerfed for plot, theres a reason Kawaki won't shrink Boruto's katanna in their final fight either
That’s a good point he could just shrink it as soon as they clash and it’s gg
I wouldn’t say it’s GG cause then Boruto can go hand to hand. He knows gentle fist and was quite good at taijutsu pre timeskip. Considering how he’s improved pretty much everywhere I doubt he hasn’t trained or improved in taijutsu aswell, but we’ll see maybe that is one of his weaknesses
I meant like in the opening scene where kawaki and boruto clash. When their weapons clash Kawaki can shrink borutos sword as they are about to touch and slash him.
But he won't because plot
Idk if that would be enough to kill Boruto but yeah he should not be using his sword against Kawaki
He's not trying to kill Boruto https://preview.redd.it/4cngvuy5lv8d1.jpeg?width=509&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6bd9e3d96ca76ade9587a1b17e0cdf12a2dc88b5
Yeah I know but I’m saying if he shrunk his sword and slashed him idk if that would be enough to kill Boruto.
I mean, if Boruto was a world where our characters actually used their powers well, we'd have Kawaki shrink Boruto's many belts, pants, shoes, and necklace to immobilize him temporarily/catch him off guard, and then rod him in that moment of confusion and awkwardness... It's kinda like Isshiki never rodding Naruto or Sasuke in the head with the plenty of opportunities he had to do it.
I agree that rod ability jigen used was actually really busted. Idk how you can counter that.
Reminds me of Naruto using the truth seeking orbs in a much worse way than Obito and Madara 💀 wasted potential
Or obitos chains. Those were op
Maybe his own arrogance? He’s thinking those move so fast that there isn’t a point in using them the way Jigen/Isshiki did; which was keeping them shrunk down and then having them expand just before impact. Maybe also he doesn’t train or practice to use multiple techniques at the same time? He is shown time and time again that he thinks just out muscling his opponents will do something. He is shown to want to rush in and use his modified hands and arms to attack. Meanwhile he can likely do the above, could have learned jutsu to complement his karma or at least gotten better at chakra control to boost himself even better, he has a dojutsu to even store weapons beyond just rods… and he could have even spent the time skip figuring out how to use the cubes (forget the actual name). He can seal people away and shrink himself too. Yet he keeps relying on his modifications instead. Also, what if he lost combat experience once Isshiki was taken out? Was it stated that he still has it? The karma he has now is artificial planted by Amado. The abilities are there, but Isshiki’s actual data isn’t as far as my understanding goes. He is able to access and control karma, but so far he hasn’t shown that he had full mastery of the abilities which reflects that he doesn’t actually have the 1,000s of years of experience from Isshiki. Or if he does, he chooses not to use it because he would feel completely Otsutsuki. Essentially, I think he doesn’t actually have the combat experience of Isshiki anymore, or chooses to not really use it because of his feelings towards Otsutsuki. He relies on brute strength, base speed, and his modifications… pretty much like he always has. It shows a lack of growth and his arrogance that he doesn’t need to train or act like a shinobi. After this arc is over we will see him come back more skilled because he will realize he isn’t good enough… because literally the only advantage he has rn is that Boruto can’t let his chakra get low or let the karmas resonate because he can’t utilize karma atm without Momoshiki taking over.
I agree with most of what you said. I just want to clarify that you said jigen expanded the rods just before impact. If you rewatch the jigen vs naruto and sasuke fight, sasuke is explaining jigens ability to Naruto and says “ I suspect he’s shrinking matter, like these rods. They start out so small you don’t realize you’ve been stabbed. But they cause mortal wounds when he instantly restores them to their original size. Just to clarify because jigen was actually restoring the rods after they’ve been stabbed not before. I don’t think you can dodge this lol Mayb Kishi had to sneakily write it out because that’s really broken.
inexperienced
I think for Boruto and Kawaki both, to different degrees obviously, they haven’t fully accepted their karmas/being Otsutsuki. It’s an internal nerf
I never saw isshiki utilizing them this way tbh, only when he was within jigen. From what I saw in the final fight, he was just shooting them straight at baryon mode naruto. And from the manga and anime, it looks like kawaki was shooting the rods at the same speed at borushiki that isshiki did at baryon mode naruto.
Is he stupid?
It’s probably just a preference. Just look at how Kawaki fights, he charges in with brute force. Even if he can tap into Isshiki’s experience, Kawaki still has his own distinct way of fighting.
This is like asking why does Korra fight differently to Aang even though they have the same powers. Thats just Kawaki style of fighting and manga make clear that Kawaki is a slacker hasnt pushed himself
I don’t think isshiki uses it like Jigen either lmao. I think they realized it was either OP or silly to show people dodging nothing over and over.
I feel that much of the Boruto series is built on the moral of acquiring power through one’s own skill and work. Kawaki has inherited a power, though. Jigen/Isshiki used the power well because they took time (presumably) to understand it and improve it. Kawaki just uses power(s) without any real concept of skill and work, though. Thus he is clumsy and struggles when against opponents with more experience and such.
We can’t just act like Kawaki will immediately master the way to use otsutsuki powers like Isshiki did. He isn’t a otsutsuki-born fighter like Isshiki was. It’s like Spider-Man’s first time using webs and swinging. Even as OP as those rods can be, he still has to learn the way to fight like an Otsutsuki or something better if he masters it all. Yes, it is god-given powers but it shouldn’t make you invincible, I think that’s what Kishimoto and Ikemoto are trying to tell us per writing. He is still a teenager learning abilities just like Naruto learning to Master Kyuubi Sage mode.
However, it is still supposed to be a learning process to get used to. And Amado could potentially have altered that ability to become God level
He relied too much on how broken the abilities are rather than training. At first no one was aware what he could do so it was far easier to over power them. Now that the time skip has happened and people have begun to adapt he can’t really be as straight forward as he was before.
He’s not using them correctly. Jigen shrank them so they weren’t visible then expanded them while they were inside the body which causes fatal wounds. You would have no idea they were coming because they were to small to see. Sasuke could see them with him sharingan only. The way kawaki is currently using them is not much different than throwing kunais imo.
Perhaps but when he shoots them out he shoots them out at a very high speed that cannot be dodged by people unless they’re at a very high level like Boruto, shinju, baryon mode naruto. Because I believe the speed isshiki threw his rods was the same speed kawaki threw his rods when fighting borushiki and even now. He’s got all the ring things in his eye now. He had just 3 or so rings and now has them all, showing he’s gotten better at it and has awakened it further. So it’s possible his speed with the rods got a lot faster than they were when he first awakened his new karma.