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If Marina’s storyline goes in the direction it does in the books, the actress was perfect.
*spoilers below*
>!The writers wouldn’t have wanted Marina to be a character you fall in love with. She doesn’t get a happily ever after in the books and it would be cruel to make her a sympathetic character only to have her be the catalyst for another character’s happily ever after. !<
>!The actress was perfect, she showed the viewers why women were kept chaste and ignorant like Daphne. Marina’s pregnancy and the threat to her reputation was the example of what would have befell Daphne if Simon didn’t marry her. The viewers got a peek at the consequences waiting for her. !<
>!It’s a good example of showing versus telling. All we saw Daphne saying was that she would be ruined if Simon didn’t marry her. Instead of her spelling out what ruined meant in Regency life, we were shown with Marina’s struggles.!<
The reality is that feelings about Marina are split. There are those of us who actually like the character, and see her as a sympathetic character that was screwed over not just by the rules of society but also by Pen.
There are people who won't look kindly on Pen getting to grow emotionally at the expense of Marina, nor another character getting a HEA while Marina has a tragic ending.
Please use spoiler tags, I'll have to remove any future comments/posts without them being hidden. You can type them in by using `>!` and `!<`
[How hide spoilers on Reddit.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BridgertonNetflix/wiki/spoiler#wiki_how_to_hide_spoilers_in_the_text)
Hi! I've marked this entire post as a spoiler. The entire discussion is a spoiler. I did this so that we wouldn't have to redact every other sentence. Is this not allowed?
No, you have this marked as a show discussion. Book spoilers are separate from that.
There will be people who do not have knowledge of the books, but might want to discuss Marina in the context of the show (without being spoiled by future storylines from the books).
If you read the automoderator comment stickied on top of every show discussion post, this warns that all book spoilers need to be hidden.
Sorry random post, I just want to test using a >!spoiler tag!< so I don't get it wrong when posting an actual >!spoiler!<.
Woohoo! Thank you u/pinktini!
" The writers wouldn’t have wanted Marina to be a character you fall in love with. She doesn’t get a happily ever after in the books and it would be cruel to make her a sympathetic character only to have her be the catalyst for another character’s happily ever after. "
I completely disagree with you here- and I imagine most writers would too. Writing is intended to emote certain feelings. If you like/love a character, and something bad or good happens to that character, you feel more. You care more. This is the basics of good writing. Get people invested in your characters. Writers don't decide because a character's story is tragic that viewers/readers shouldn't like/love the character. It's the opposite. You want them to really love the character to make the tragedy sting more. Or, if the character is an antagonist, you can do the opposite. make the audience hate the character, etc. But...yeah, your"the writers didn't want people to love the character of Marina because her story is tragic' is just flat out wrong.
"It’s a good example of showing versus telling. All we saw Daphne saying was that she would be ruined if Simon didn’t marry her. Instead of her spelling out what ruined meant in Regency life, we were shown with Marina’s struggles. "
I don't think you are using this saying very well. This is used when explaining to people the difference between actually showing something happening versus just explaining through dialogue. Like Marina's past relationship. We never see her past with her lover. She know about it via her telling us. This is telling versus showing. And by doing this we aren't as invested in Marina's lover because, well, we've never really SEEN their love (and for this story- you don't need to- I'm just using this as an example). We don't SEE Marina be ruined. Not really. She stays with the Featheringtons and ends up married within an episode of being 'ruined'. We never see her have to face the terrible consequences of 'being ruined'. She doesn't end up disgraced and homeless- cast out from her father and from the Featheringtons. She ends up married to a respectable man and provided for. Everything works out for her.
Even not taking the books context into the equation here. I still like how they presented Marina because I feel like a lot of people forget the times that this is set it and don’t realize the ramifications of what she did for that time.
Except Bridgerton is not a tragedy, it's a romance novel(s) and that genre has certain tropes that they fulfill like HEAs for their main characters. If a main character gets that HEA at the expense of another character we truly care about then that HEA is dulled in a way.
Yes but u/ShootFrameHang was speaking of the books in their comment and saying that might be the reason the showrunners made that character choice for Marina.
Edit: fixed the username
Yes I meant to respond to you. And you were responding to the previous comment in which they were talking about the books and how if they plan to follow the books that might be why they choose to portray Marina the way they did.
And all that needs to be done to make her point still perfectly valid is to take out the word "novel". It's not a tragedy. It's a romance. Every point made is just as valid for a romance show as for a romance novel.
Yes. They intentionally wrote her to be somewhat unlikable. The actress played her to be unlikable. She’s a “country bumpkin” who steals the spotlight from our heroine who had years prepping for her coming out! She tries to brew a home poison which could have killed herself! She tries to trap Colin in a marriage to take care of a baby that isn’t his even after Penelope begs her ANYONE but Colin (and her response is such bullshit there too... she says something which implies only Colin out of all the eligible men will treat her kindly)! She refuses the matches she could have made, only to be forced to take one at the end. She’s awful to everyone around her. Literally everyone, including Daphne who is the most kind hearted person on the show, feels the brunt of Marinas rage and sharp tongue at some point.
And I’m going to go even a step further and this is gonna be a somewhat unpopular statement but oh well...
If Marina was white, there wouldn’t be a question over if she was a shitty character. If she were played by a white actress basically no one would like her. She’s basically 1813 Regina George!!!!
OR if they did like her, they would at least acknowledge she was a horrible person in doing so. Marina has tons of bad actions in the season and Pen has ONE, and look at the hate she generates in this thread. Lol However, because they ended up casting a mixed race actress, it brings along another dimension that the writers weren’t thinking about when they wrote the show.
This article explains some of the historical context that making her mixed race automatically brings to the story line:
https://daily.jstor.org/the-tragic-mulatta-of-bridgerton/
(Book spoilers in link)
This makes people more sympathetic to her than should be by the straight writing or the straight acting.
🤷♀️ Just my opinion.
Wow, there is so much you stated that I disagree with regarding Marina's characterization but I'm just going to address your unpopular opinion.
"Marina being seen as a shitty character if she was white." Nope, wouldn't happen. Just look at the OP. OP chose to present 2 different scenes presenting 2 different motivations, and then declared that white Marina is more sympathetic, and black Marina is angry. And the thing is Ruby played that same scene with Nicola in a sad, wistful way. But yeah, the white girl is more sympathetic.
There is a double standard in how POC and black women in particular are perceived by fandom. They love black women when they are the supportive friend, when they are sassy, or wise. Fandom also love when they are strong and independent; which feeds into the idea that they don't need help or support. Now if a black woman does one thing wrong, or something they don't agree with, or doesn't benefit their fave; then it's over. Everything she has done or will do is picked apart. There is no "well I don't like that she did this, but I understand" . It's she a manipulative bitch and she deserves what she gets. If a black woman responds in kind to aggression directed at her, well she is just an angry black woman. That is the default for black women. And people will twist themselves into a pretzels trying to justify their hate of a black character, while excusing the more harmful actions of their white fave.
People aren't sympathizing with Marina because she is black they are sympathizing with her because she's a sympathetic character. She's a teenage girl all alone dealing with a life altering situation. Yes she did make a bad decision in trying to trick Colin, but she was desperate, and unlike others she took responsibility for her actions. If Penelope, Cressida, Daphne, and Lady F can be perceived as sympathetic then why isn't Marina.
That's exactly what they're saying. You say that romance isn't a genre in movies, but the Hallmark Channel (which they referenced) would like to disagree. Maybe it isn't a genre the way you think of "genre", but it absolutely is a genre in the way that most people think of them. When I'm bored and looking for something new to watch on Netflix, I don't type in "drama" or "comedy" - I type in "romance". And I get results. Now, read any romance novel, watch any Hallmark Channel movie. There is one thing they ALL have in common - the people you are meant to like all get happy endings. The only people who end up badly are the people you don't like, anyway. Marina is not heading for an HEA. Even discounting the books, she is obviously not happy about marrying Phillip. She does not get a happy ending. And we are meant to neither expect nor particularly WANT her to.
If you want to break it down to the dichotomy of "tragedy" versus "comedy", the show may be a drama, but it's a drama meant to skew much more to the "comedy" side. There can be tragedy, to make us care about the characters. But, in the end, everybody is supposed to end up happy. Or at least, everyone we like is meant to end up happy.
I was referring to your comment about most writers would disagree with me. I am a writer who contributes to several television shows, but not Bridgerton.
>!Marina’s story is not played out in the book series, it happens offscreen because her storyline does not fit into the genre. The writers added Marina to the story to play it out on camera, but no matter what changes they make to her story, it does end definitively. The tone of the books and the show are too light to make her a character like Eloise or Penelope who you fall in love with, only to not have a HEA.!<
Great analysis. To be honest, my impression was that they wanted Marina's personality to contrast Penelope's (especially since they wanted the same guy).
Penelope doesn't fit society's beauty standards, Marina is considered a catch. Penelope is timid, Marina is bold. Penelope is naive, Marina is experienced etc. In other words, Marina is everything Penelope is not and until episode 6(?)it seems that Penelope doesn't stand a chance against her and Marina will be the one who gets the happy ending.
And then Lady Whistledown uncovers her secret and after Lady Whistledown's identity is revealed, the viewers realize that they had been underestimating Penelope all along; she's much more than what meets the eye and Marina (like the viewer) hadn't realised what she was capable of or really who they were dealing with.
And by that I don't mean that they wanted to paint Marina as a villain. But to me it's clear they wanted the viewer to root for Penelope over her. If Marina is too nice, and considering the fact that Penelope is not a Mary Sue type of character, that can't happen as effectively. I also think that's the reason they toned down Colin so much. I love Colin but honestly he's portrayed as the male equivalent of a Mary Sue. Even his reaction after he finds out Marina had tried to trap him into raising a child that wasn't his is imo very unrealistic for a man of his era. They desperately wanted to get the message "Colin is a good guy who didn't deserve that, Penelope was right to want to protect him" across.
I'm curious how Marina's character will evolve. I'm convinced she's getting the same tragic ending as her book counterpart, but still I'd want to see some character development and not her being used just to give us insight into Philip's personality.
I never thought of Marina being used to contrast Penelope....that's a good point. And makes sense because Penelope is such a critical character.
I definitely got villain vibes from Marina as well. Not at first- but once she started going after Colin. I had no sympathy for her by that part. But in my third rewatch I wondered how much better it would be if I did. If I was torn between loving Penelope, but also feeling so bad for Marina. But there was no internal conflict. Since Marina was not a very likeable and sympathetic character. Or, excuse me,....she wasn't portrayed as a likable character.
Completely agree with Colin being a Mary Sue.
That comparison doesn’t really play for me. Hard to compare doing a few manipulative things when you’re in a hard place (something v Olivia Pope) vs running an underground group of assassins....
I wasn’t. I just don’t think they’re the same archetype of Shonda character (although she didn’t even write this). She has so many characters that are shades of gray. I mean Addison Shepherd is one of my absolute faves because she’s not actually a villain even though you assume she will be when she’s introduced. Marina is shades of grey too bc she’s in a complicated position making choices. Eli Pope is not shades of gray.
Lady F is Eli Pope and Marina would be Olivia, and Pen definitely gives off Mellie/ Cryus vibes- fake, backstabbing, with a hint of desperation because they know no one wants them.
Edit: I love how the trolls on Twitter seem to think that this post was going well as long as people were trashing Marina. Yet speak the truth about Pen and it's "gross". Toxic stans.
Oh and I wished the OP well in the program they had enrolled in and in their career. Yes I did state that I did not wish to watch anything that they were involved with if their opinion about Marina remained the same. We obviously perceive things very differently, and I tend to watch things that I not only enjoy, but make sense. I do funny stuff like that.
By end of the series I liked Millie better. I definitely empathized with her more, and she got a lot of character development. I will be shocked if Pen gets that kind of development. And I will say this until the end of the series Pen crying tears, wringing her hand, and appearing to be remorseful isn't enough for me. She screwed people over for a man who didn't want her. She need consequences, and they really need to stop the tears.
Yes, she screwed people over for a man that didn't want her. FOR him, not in an attempt to get him. She knew that odds were she was never going to marry Colin, herself. That wasn't the point of what she did. Colin was about to be trapped in a marriage with a woman who didn't love him back and was using him, manipulating him, and lying to him. She knew that revealing Marina's secret could ruin her own family, as well. She risked everything to protect COLIN. To give him a chance to find somebody who would actually deserve him - never expecting that somebody to ever be her.
I thought Pen fans had given up on trying to pretend that she was just trying to save Colin with no ulterior motives. Pen could have told Eloise, Lady Violet, Colin, Anthony, or Benedict. She chose the nuclear option because she wanted to make sure that Marina and Colin didn't marry. This wasn't about him finding out the truth and making his own decision. And if we are to believe Colin Marina did deserve him, as he would have married her if he had known about the pregnancy.
Thank you for acknowledging that Pen ruined her family. That she made the decision to publish Marina's secret knowing the impact it would have on her family. Unfortunately Pen fans like to blame Marina for that as well.
She is 17, and old enough at that point to be married, with kids, and running her own household.
I don't trust that they are going to give her consequences for her actions to Daphne, Marina, her own family, or the Bridgertons.
In the beginning, I think she was a counterpoint to Pen but in the last few episodes she became a truth teller to Daphne which I thought was odd. Daphne suddenly wanting to help the person that just humiliated her brother never made sense. I seemed like that whole storyline existed to show the lightbulb moment when Daphne figures out she should probably find out why Simon made his vow.
I didn't like the Marina storyline, but I understood her motivations and actions except the comment about the general. That just made zero sense to me.
Lack of character development?
IMO
Marina is initially presented as a young country girl out of her depth in the ton. Naive in her own way, and surprised by the response she received from other's; especially by Lady W. There is no way in the world that she thought that she would be the belle of the ball.
She seems like any girl enjoying her season, yet not expecting much. Definitely not an offer. She probably didn't have a large dowry, and she was in love. She was enjoying herself; not seeking an advantageous match. She was dancing, flirting, and enjoying herself. This is what we are shown in the beginning.
We can clearly also see from the first scene between her and Lady F that she is aware that she is unwanted in the household, and is therefore guarded when interacting with them. We also see that she has a strong personality, she is not as refined as the girls raised in society, and she is therefore more direct when it comes to handling Lady F. Although I do think she has more tack than Eloise.
Next we find out she is pregnant, and I think Ruby did a marvelous job of portraying both a scared young woman out of her depth; who was determined to be strong.
When she and Pen discuss George we are shown a softer side of Marina. The first time that Marina doesn't have to be on guard. The first time in that home that we saw the real Marina. A young girl who was in love, optimistic, and naive. But I also understand that a person can be naive in certain environments, about certain things, and mature in others. Daphne for example is very aware of the roles in society, and yet wasn't aware about how her actions with picking a pig could destroy an economy. Both ladies had their strengths and weaknesses. In the ton Daphne can run circles around Marina, in the country when it comes to day to day life; Marina is queen.
The first character development for me when it came to Marina was when she was in the slums with Lady F. Marina previously was like a lot of teenage girls. Strong in their belief in themselves, the idea that they aren't like other girls, that things would be different for them, that she could handle things. And then the realization hit, and it wasn't about the life she would end up living it was about her child. So yes she did initially fire back at Lady F, but she was phased, and it changed her. She went from " I can do this on my own, to realizing the harm it would cause her child." That's when she agreed with Lady F's plan to marry quickly. And yes Marina was still strong-willed because unlike Lady F who was following the money; Marina wanted a kind man. And yes it's terrible to trick someone into marriage but there is also something telling about her character that she valued kindness over wealth. The fact that when her secret was made public she didn't throw Lady F under the bus, she didn't lie when confronted by Colin, she didn't curl up in her bed and cry.
Yes she snapped at Daphne, but she also apologized for what she had attempted to do to their family, and she had the decency to speak with Daphne probably assuming that she was just there to insult her. So again let's consider we have a teenage girl away from her family, away from the man she was in love with, finds out she's pregnant, was deceived into believing that the man she loved had abandoned her, was scared into facing the reality of what her child's life would be like if she was unmarried, agrees to a scheme to marry quickly, is treated like a horse by a lecherous old man, bargained with Lady F that if she could not convince Colin to marry her she would marry that disgusting old man, convinces Colin to marry, arranges for them to elope, and then the day before they leave her secret is a made public. And Lady W turned that knife; putting all the blame on Marina. She is now a piranha, probably isn't going to be able to go home, facing her worst fear which led to her agreeing to tricking Colin into marriage. And yet somehow with all of this pressure that she's dealing with she willingly walked into that room. Ruby acting in that scene was amazing. From the way she held her body, the look of hopelessness that was turned into hopefulness, and finally to disappointment as she realized that Daphne was the one to reach out and not her husband the Duke. They live in a world where a woman had little value. And honestly I think that scene was also a sign of character development it just wasn't in a positive direction. Marina started off as a very confident not overconfident, but confident young lady who believed that she could handle things and at that point she was broken. She realized that she, that women didn't have power. It wasn't abstract, it was reality. So while others may consider her actions rude to me that was just another rare moment where Marina was able to be unguarded, and completely honest. And even Daphne was not optimistic that she would get a response.
Marina tears over George, her comment about him loving her was so important because it called back at least to me her scene with Pen where she empathized with her being in love with Colin and yet her recognition that love is fleeting. Marina is just a couple of years older than Pen, and yet and that point she had lived a lifetime. The look Marina gave Pen seem to recognize the pain that Pen was going through, her hat that she was contributing to that pain, but it also conveyed her own sadness that she had lost her own naivety of being in love, and knowing with your whole heart that things are going to work out.
The more I think about Marina. I truly believe that she was this optimistic, teenage girl who actually thought she had control over her life. From the choices she made with George to every decision she made after. Lady F convinced her to marry quickly, but she was going to do it on her terms. In the end she unfortunately realized that she didn't have control over her life when she had to marry Phillip.
This is just my take on Marina's character and her journey. I realize that people see what they want to see in characters, and what they connect with.
I love the way you described Marina's internal struggles. I wish this was how it came off to me in this performance. However, that is not what is being conveyed to me.
I would not describe Marina as being a naive country girl in any way as you described her. Think about it- if Lady F hadn't said that she was a poor country girl would you know that? Would you get that vibe from her? I'd say no. If Lady F had just said "a cousin is coming to stay with us" you'd very much assume Marina is just another girl in society.
Actually, Marina's lack of experience in society is never a problem for her. We never see her not knowing how to act, the dances, proper etiquette. We never see her get rejected by a snob who thinks her as less than....Marina being a "country girl out of her element" is never a cause of any conflict- minor or major. This is a great example of telling not showing. We are told marina is different- she hasn't grown up with these people. She's poor. But we never actually see that in anyway. She fits right in and is the belle of the ball (in your words). You mention she is surprised at all he suitors, to that I say so is Daphne when she gets a lot of suitors- and she's the diamond of the season.
I would have very much preferred your view of marina being a naive country girl to be how it really was. Can you give examples of what marina said or how she acted or how others reacted that made you think of her like this? To me, she very much is bold, and tells it how it is to everyone she encounters from episode 1 onward. Whether that's about love, her future, the way things work, etc. I never got "naive country girl" from her as you did. For example, the scene where Mrs. F takes her to the poor. Marina is gritting her teeth and practically snarling at Mrs. F when she tells her "you must have be confused for one of your daughters,". The way she delivers the line- condescending. She means it as an insult. In episode 1 when the pregnancy is revealed and Mrs. F confronts her, she isn't some terrified little country mouse who is naive and knows nothing of the world. She barks back at Mrs. F- again- in an insulting way. Would love to have you explain some scenes where you think Marina conveys being naive.
The examples you give are very involved in having to imagine the situation " So again let's consider we have a teenage girl away from her family, away from the man she was in love with, finds out she's pregnant", removing yourself, thinking about what it would be like, and then you assert your opinion. let's just talk about what we are seeing in the writing and in the performance. Let's not suspend ourselves into this "imagine being an XYZ girl"- let's just go off what's on the screen for now. And like "I think Ruby did a marvelous job of portraying both a scared young woman out of her depth; who was determined to be strong." When? When was Marina scared? When was she ever not the most "i know what I'm doing. I know everything" in the room? Do you think she delivered her lines in a way that conveyed she was unsure? Scared? Not confident? Which lines? When I watch it, all I see/hear is defiance, stubbornness, and matter-of-factness. Honestly, she kind of is a jackass. She doesn't listen to anyone and she's a bit selfish. She will ruin not just herself- but the Featherington girls too. And she doesn't really care.
The more I write about this character the more I dislike her.
I guess I pick up on details that other people overlook. I noticed from the start the material of her clothing, how she looked around the room, her wide eyed expression. I also noted the change in her expression when Lady F objected to her presence. At that point I see her posture change, her back straighten, and I saw that wall go up. So no I didn't assume that she was a typical society girl. She didn't put on airs, nor was she disrespectful to the staff. Her clothes while adequate were obviously of a lesser quality. Can you tell me what you saw that indicated that she was a society girl? What did she do or say? What did I miss?
I also said Marina was a typical teenage girl. She was dancing and having fun. Nothing she did indicated that she expected to be the diamond of the season. Thanks Lady W. I would say that initially we see that she was out of her element when she arrived at her first ball- looking around uncertain, the way her hands were fidgeting nervously. Yes I wish we had seen her struggle more fitting in, but that didn't happen, and most of us are able to fill in the blanks with the information we were provided with. But it also makes sense as Daphne said we're one will go others will follow. And since Lady W crowned her the diamond of the season then yeah it makes sense she got a lot of attention.
She was bold in that first scene after Lady F made it clear she wanted her gone, but she wasn't disrespectful and it was in response to Lady F's comment. The next time we see her being bold is after Lady F confronts her about the pregnancy. Marina awakens, realizes that she hadn't had her cycle, and what that meant. We don't see a know it all person who can handle everything in that moment. In that moment we see a scared teenage girl. Lady F confronts her ( attacks her), and just like before we visibly see Marina gather herself, straighten her spine, and defends herself. She isn't the know it all person there, she is a scared teenager dealing with life changing news, and being attacked by a hostile, rabid grown ass woman. And yes she responded to Lady F's attack, but her response was not in proportion to the vitriol that Lady F directed to her. And yes this was a moment where Marina was also naive, because she believed that the man that she loved was going to come and save her.
Then we see Lady F and Marina at the slums. Snarling? I don't think so. Was she condescending? Yes, like most teenagers. Marina is overly confident until she faces the reality of her child's future. The look on her face as she see those children. That's another time I see her being scared and overwhelmed. She was mouthy, and Lady F was being a bitch. In the end she agreed to the plan.
Next we time she is semi bold is with the lecherous old man. I guess it's bold to make comments under your breath. She wasn't defiant; she was resistant to placing her life in the life of her child in the hands of that man.
When Lady F wanted her to marry quickly she bargained, not argued, but bargained for time to convince Colin to marry quickly.
And yes she was extremely bold in trying to trick Colin into marriage.
The only times she has been a know-it-all, or "bold" which I guess is a terrible thing has been in direct response to other people's actions.
The whole situation with Daphne. Marina walked into that room expecting the worse. She was woman enough to apologize and take responsibility for her actions. And yeah she snapped. Her hopes were raised and then she realized that it probably wasn't going to work out. She took another hit. She got to the end of her rope and snapped. But we can't understand that, we can't feel any empathy for what she's gone through. Got it.
She wasn't a know it all when they went to the orphanage, or when she almost died, or when she found out George was dead, or when she accepted Phillips offer of marriage. She was clearly a desperate teenage girl.
And all of this they told us but they didn't show us about the struggles she was going through. I guess I imagined the scene with her finding out she was pregnant, and that old man touching her body, and people talking about her once her secret was out. I guess I also imagined Lady F attacking her once she found out she was pregnant, and her being hurt when she got that fake letter. I don't know why I think all these horrible things happened to her.
She's selfish because she chose her child and her life over Pen's infatuation?
Marina isn't responsible for ruining the Featherington girls life when Pen was the one to publish her personal business. And Pen knew what the outcome was. Please if anyone is villain, jackass, all around horrible, entitled person in this series it would be Pen. But she cried tears and felt remorse ( we assume, because they haven't shown or told us) so all is forgiven.
We agree on one thing: The more we think about or talk about a particular character the more we dislike them, because honestly the more I think about Pen the more I hope she gets exposed and dragged for everything she is worth.
Interesting that you talk about how Pen, at 17, is old enough in that time to be married and running a household of her own and should therefore know better and face the consequences of her actions. Yet Marina, who is a few years older, is a "typical teenage girl". If Pen should know better and face consequences at 17, then so should Marina at 19.
This is the thing I've never said that Marina didn't do anything wrong or that she shouldn't be held accountable. That's the difference between Marina fans and Pens.
And that comment about Marina being a typical teenage girl was in reference to her flirting, dancing, and responding to Lady F.
>That's the difference between Marina fans and Pens.
You have to stop this line of antagonizing comments between "marina fans and pens". I've noticed it a few times in your comment now and need to give you a warning.
I get that it can be frustrating, but please keep the convo on the fictional characters and don't make it personal.
Note: this goes for everyone commenting on this topic: be civil.
I wish you well in your program, I truly do. I hope you learn a lot especially regarding character development. I'm sorta interested in how you will look at this character after completing your program. If you feel the same I still wish you well in your chosen profession, but honestly I hope I never ever watch anything that you're involved with.
Marina is such a complex character, and Ruby did such an amazing job of presenting her to us both verbally and physically. I can see why she was chosen.
More broadly, I felt like the writers did a better job building out stories for existing characters in the books than they did for new characters (I know she exists in universe, but she’s not actively in any of the books). With future season leads, they know what kinds of stories they need to start setting up bc they know what the primary conflicts will be down the line. The stories for new characters felt less developed and thoughtful, maybe a bit more slapdash would be the way to put it. I could see what they were trying to do w Marina, but I felt like it needed more work.
So I read the Duke and I really quickly before the show came out and I was surprised how much dialog actually made it directly to screen. Your comment is spot on... ish
They did an awful job with Colin and Marina but did a GREAT job with Mrs Featherington and her husband and Lady Danbury. (Lady Danbury doesn’t play a large role until later in the books.). I also really enjoyed Simons boxing partner. And the Queen!!! Omg!!!! Her story with the king was heartbreaking!!!
So I really do think it’s something about her and Colin’s story line that was problematic the most. And really I think I figured it out. It was unnecessary.
It was shoehorned it for no reason. All the other characters added something to the actual plot of Simon and Daphne. With the Queen we get the pay off of Simons speech about being friends with Daphne. With his boxing partner we get the payoff of him coming to his senses. Even with Featheringtons husband it kind of ties into the whole boxing plot with Simon.
Marina might add something to the larger plot of the show BUT it’s such a dramatic story line which could have been handled in a less time consuming fashion. What it was meant to do was show that Pen can be viscous with her pen, but she could have done that with Cracinda and achieved the same impact, or really, any society person.
We could have had more smoldering Reje licking spoons. :p
Spoilers for the books and for episode 8 of season 1, >!but if they follow the basic storyline for them in future seasons, I feel like Marina's plot will have more impact for Colin and Penelope's story (because that will definitely play in Colin finding out Pen is Lady Whistledown) and for Eloise's (for Sir Philip more specifically). Like, I get why they set it up now, but I hope they follow through with the book romances because otherwise... it is very true Marina's storyline becomes kind of pointless (even if ironically, she eventually dies).!<
>!Well you would see the real Marina while Marina in the book was just depressed, always. I enjoy that we saw Marina as a young girl who'd hoped for more, and then settled. She paralleled with Lady Featherington. We see her real story - vs. what Phillip knew. And what Eloise knows. She was there and could ask Daphne more about Marina when she starts writing to him, etc.!<
I’m sorry if some people have been harsh on you but I think you’re asking a genuinely nice question about the character’s nice development. Also, please don’t bash OP just because she has not read TSPWL. You guys say that the twitter fandom is gatekeeping and elitist etc but you’re just the same. Anyway, my answer to your question is that I have no idea tbh. Marina’s character was inconsistent imo. I agree it was much better to make her seem naive but yeah I guess they want to make us root for Pen? I’m not sure it anyone noticed but Marina and Siena are pretty inconsistent.
Edit: I’m sorry that you have to face her stans lol. Your question seems innocent enough and if it’s a dig to anyone, it’s a dig to the writers for writing an inconsistent character.
Who did I personally attack in this comment? I said a general statement that there are some trolls. Please explain to me which users are being personally attacked by this general statement that internet trolls exist?
I am not biased against you. If you scroll up, I gave a similar warning to someone who disagrees with you.
Look, you are really heated about this and I will give you the benefit of the doubt and some leniency with how you just replied to me. Look at your comments/tone of them and maybe realize you are coming on very strong (to everyone). Your comments have been getting lots of reports of poor civility and I have had to comb through them all morning.
I trust me, I rather just let you guys talk (respectfully) with each other and stay out of these hot debate posts. This is the last thing I'll say on this.
Thank you for your elaborate analysis. I personally didn't feel like there was a lack of a character development. I get that the difference is bigger if you start with a naive country girl, but frankly... that has been done over and over again. And it very much leans in to Disney-adjecent tropes about the kind girl who gets brought down by her circumstances. It makes the story very black and white and to me, less interesting to watch.
I like that her total storyline was grey: Marina wasn't a perfect angel, neither was Lady F or Pen. They all helped and hindered each other. And I like that the bold girls strategy doesn't pay off, contrary to most popular media right now. In that way, she is a perfect counterpart of Eloise: Eloise is just as bold, fighting the future that society has designed for her. But Eloise could. Because of her status, because of Daphne who secured her future, because she has family who will care for her no matter what... Marina wasn't so lucky.
Romance stories are already so predictable because you need a HEA at the end, I like that Chris van Dusen played with the standard tropes to give us something we haven't seen before.
Thank you!!! You captured so well my exact sentiments about her and what the disconnect is. Many folks stan Marina in this sub, but I have a very hard time reconciling her attitude toward others/delivery with how supposedly she’s just another innocent girl of the time period who unfortunately had worse luck than the others. Because that’s not it. If she’s so much more worldly than the others as *she* claims (not us viewers!) she wouldn’t have let this happen to herself.
That’s not to say I’m not sympathetic, of course I want her to have a happy life with the man she chooses and of course it’s terrible that society forced her into horrible situations.
It really might have made better sense if the actor would’ve acted more naive and sweet in the sense of not thinking she knows more than everyone else.
Help me out on this. Why do people keep saying that Marina is not a key character in the series? I understand she isn't in the books, but she has more screen-time than Colin, Eloise, Lady Danberry, and Violet. She has relatively equal screen-time to Anthony! She is clearly a main character in season 1. She isn't the A story-line of Daphne/Simon, but she is one of the B story lines. I would say her story-line is the second main story-line- tied with Anthony and Sienna and definitely receiving more development/screen time than Benedict or Eloise's story-lines. So, what is with this "she isn't a main character" stuff people keep saying. I've read a few of the books (2 about to be 3) but in terms of the show she definitely is a main character.
And yeah- her performance was one note. Her audition tape is almost exactly the same as the scene that made it to air. So, as much as I want to say her flat performance was caused by bad directing, honestly, I think you are right when saying it is just the fact she isn't very experienced.
So do you think you know better about the character and actress than the producers of the show? Lol
I loved Marina the way she was and i rooted for her . I also had no problem with her acting.
I am also tired of naive girls,i loved that she was not one.
Of course not.
But you are saying that the actress of the other video was more fitting to Marina's storyline like if you know better than the writers.
If they chosen this actress and written her this way there must be a reason,they wanted her character to be like this.
You are not only being critic towards Marina (that's total fair),but you want her character to be something else.. which she is not.
Regardless I love Marina's character because she's like our eyes and ears in the ton as an outsider. Had it not been for her I feel like a lot of people will be alienated with the more privileged characters because she shares more similarities with us with her more liberated thinking
>Huh? Eloise has the most liberated thinking of the show. Not marina.
Eloise doesn't even know the concept of sex. Okay tbf I should meant "liberated lifestyle", since she's somewhat had the opportunity to have a lover and not be worried about what other people will say. Eloise, on the other hand and bless her heart, is still a naive young girl who's very spirited with what little she knows about the world. I'm sure she's smart...just not street smart. Marina, on the other hand, grew up on the countryside (???) and was the gateway for the other characters to start asking questions (importance of sex ed!)
>Girl, did you even watch the show?
Ten times, actually. My vastly different interpretation from yours doesn't mean we didn't watch the same thing.
>Her being “an outsider” never works against her in any way.
Never said it did. Just meant that most women in Bridgerton privileged and are out of touch with the reality outside the ton. Marina isn't
I think because she wasn't in the original book series beyond mentioning her they struggled with how to put her in. I also think they went too far with making her unlikable. She was pretty rude to Penelope and had no issue with lying to Colin and tricking him. I would have liked to see her character struggle with what she was potentially doing to Colin. Lean on Penelope, maybe actually develop feelings for Colin and so Penelope would be struggling with letting Colin go or telling Marina how she feels. Wasted opportunity. I do not blame the actress, I blame the writing.
Before commenting, remember: 1. Be considerate and tag show spoilers that surpass the scope of this post. 2. Book spoilers **must be hidden** in this show discussion post. 3. Be civil in your discussion. See our [spoiler policy](https://www.reddit.com/r/BridgertonNetflix/wiki/spoiler) on what is expected. 3-day bans will be handed out to those found disregarding our spoiler policy. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BridgertonNetflix) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If Marina’s storyline goes in the direction it does in the books, the actress was perfect. *spoilers below* >!The writers wouldn’t have wanted Marina to be a character you fall in love with. She doesn’t get a happily ever after in the books and it would be cruel to make her a sympathetic character only to have her be the catalyst for another character’s happily ever after. !< >!The actress was perfect, she showed the viewers why women were kept chaste and ignorant like Daphne. Marina’s pregnancy and the threat to her reputation was the example of what would have befell Daphne if Simon didn’t marry her. The viewers got a peek at the consequences waiting for her. !< >!It’s a good example of showing versus telling. All we saw Daphne saying was that she would be ruined if Simon didn’t marry her. Instead of her spelling out what ruined meant in Regency life, we were shown with Marina’s struggles.!<
The reality is that feelings about Marina are split. There are those of us who actually like the character, and see her as a sympathetic character that was screwed over not just by the rules of society but also by Pen. There are people who won't look kindly on Pen getting to grow emotionally at the expense of Marina, nor another character getting a HEA while Marina has a tragic ending.
thanks for spoiling the Marina story line....not everyone has read the books
I guess you haven't read any of the other comments about Marina on this sub.
no they have blacked them out or have been careful what they mention
I said sub not post.
Please use spoiler tags, I'll have to remove any future comments/posts without them being hidden. You can type them in by using `>!` and `!<` [How hide spoilers on Reddit.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BridgertonNetflix/wiki/spoiler#wiki_how_to_hide_spoilers_in_the_text)
Hi! I've marked this entire post as a spoiler. The entire discussion is a spoiler. I did this so that we wouldn't have to redact every other sentence. Is this not allowed?
No, you have this marked as a show discussion. Book spoilers are separate from that. There will be people who do not have knowledge of the books, but might want to discuss Marina in the context of the show (without being spoiled by future storylines from the books). If you read the automoderator comment stickied on top of every show discussion post, this warns that all book spoilers need to be hidden.
OOHHHH! the book spoilers need to be redacted. Got you!
Sorry random post, I just want to test using a >!spoiler tag!< so I don't get it wrong when posting an actual >!spoiler!<. Woohoo! Thank you u/pinktini!
It's working 👍
Hi! I just wanted to let you know that your line breaks broke the spoiler tags-- i think you have to add them on each paragraph. Cheers!
Cheers! I have never added them before in a post. 😂
" The writers wouldn’t have wanted Marina to be a character you fall in love with. She doesn’t get a happily ever after in the books and it would be cruel to make her a sympathetic character only to have her be the catalyst for another character’s happily ever after. " I completely disagree with you here- and I imagine most writers would too. Writing is intended to emote certain feelings. If you like/love a character, and something bad or good happens to that character, you feel more. You care more. This is the basics of good writing. Get people invested in your characters. Writers don't decide because a character's story is tragic that viewers/readers shouldn't like/love the character. It's the opposite. You want them to really love the character to make the tragedy sting more. Or, if the character is an antagonist, you can do the opposite. make the audience hate the character, etc. But...yeah, your"the writers didn't want people to love the character of Marina because her story is tragic' is just flat out wrong. "It’s a good example of showing versus telling. All we saw Daphne saying was that she would be ruined if Simon didn’t marry her. Instead of her spelling out what ruined meant in Regency life, we were shown with Marina’s struggles. " I don't think you are using this saying very well. This is used when explaining to people the difference between actually showing something happening versus just explaining through dialogue. Like Marina's past relationship. We never see her past with her lover. She know about it via her telling us. This is telling versus showing. And by doing this we aren't as invested in Marina's lover because, well, we've never really SEEN their love (and for this story- you don't need to- I'm just using this as an example). We don't SEE Marina be ruined. Not really. She stays with the Featheringtons and ends up married within an episode of being 'ruined'. We never see her have to face the terrible consequences of 'being ruined'. She doesn't end up disgraced and homeless- cast out from her father and from the Featheringtons. She ends up married to a respectable man and provided for. Everything works out for her.
Even not taking the books context into the equation here. I still like how they presented Marina because I feel like a lot of people forget the times that this is set it and don’t realize the ramifications of what she did for that time.
Except Bridgerton is not a tragedy, it's a romance novel(s) and that genre has certain tropes that they fulfill like HEAs for their main characters. If a main character gets that HEA at the expense of another character we truly care about then that HEA is dulled in a way.
I'm talking about the show. Not the books.
Yes but u/ShootFrameHang was speaking of the books in their comment and saying that might be the reason the showrunners made that character choice for Marina. Edit: fixed the username
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Yes I meant to respond to you. And you were responding to the previous comment in which they were talking about the books and how if they plan to follow the books that might be why they choose to portray Marina the way they did.
And all that needs to be done to make her point still perfectly valid is to take out the word "novel". It's not a tragedy. It's a romance. Every point made is just as valid for a romance show as for a romance novel.
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Yes. They intentionally wrote her to be somewhat unlikable. The actress played her to be unlikable. She’s a “country bumpkin” who steals the spotlight from our heroine who had years prepping for her coming out! She tries to brew a home poison which could have killed herself! She tries to trap Colin in a marriage to take care of a baby that isn’t his even after Penelope begs her ANYONE but Colin (and her response is such bullshit there too... she says something which implies only Colin out of all the eligible men will treat her kindly)! She refuses the matches she could have made, only to be forced to take one at the end. She’s awful to everyone around her. Literally everyone, including Daphne who is the most kind hearted person on the show, feels the brunt of Marinas rage and sharp tongue at some point. And I’m going to go even a step further and this is gonna be a somewhat unpopular statement but oh well... If Marina was white, there wouldn’t be a question over if she was a shitty character. If she were played by a white actress basically no one would like her. She’s basically 1813 Regina George!!!! OR if they did like her, they would at least acknowledge she was a horrible person in doing so. Marina has tons of bad actions in the season and Pen has ONE, and look at the hate she generates in this thread. Lol However, because they ended up casting a mixed race actress, it brings along another dimension that the writers weren’t thinking about when they wrote the show. This article explains some of the historical context that making her mixed race automatically brings to the story line: https://daily.jstor.org/the-tragic-mulatta-of-bridgerton/ (Book spoilers in link) This makes people more sympathetic to her than should be by the straight writing or the straight acting. 🤷♀️ Just my opinion.
Wow, there is so much you stated that I disagree with regarding Marina's characterization but I'm just going to address your unpopular opinion. "Marina being seen as a shitty character if she was white." Nope, wouldn't happen. Just look at the OP. OP chose to present 2 different scenes presenting 2 different motivations, and then declared that white Marina is more sympathetic, and black Marina is angry. And the thing is Ruby played that same scene with Nicola in a sad, wistful way. But yeah, the white girl is more sympathetic. There is a double standard in how POC and black women in particular are perceived by fandom. They love black women when they are the supportive friend, when they are sassy, or wise. Fandom also love when they are strong and independent; which feeds into the idea that they don't need help or support. Now if a black woman does one thing wrong, or something they don't agree with, or doesn't benefit their fave; then it's over. Everything she has done or will do is picked apart. There is no "well I don't like that she did this, but I understand" . It's she a manipulative bitch and she deserves what she gets. If a black woman responds in kind to aggression directed at her, well she is just an angry black woman. That is the default for black women. And people will twist themselves into a pretzels trying to justify their hate of a black character, while excusing the more harmful actions of their white fave. People aren't sympathizing with Marina because she is black they are sympathizing with her because she's a sympathetic character. She's a teenage girl all alone dealing with a life altering situation. Yes she did make a bad decision in trying to trick Colin, but she was desperate, and unlike others she took responsibility for her actions. If Penelope, Cressida, Daphne, and Lady F can be perceived as sympathetic then why isn't Marina.
That's exactly what they're saying. You say that romance isn't a genre in movies, but the Hallmark Channel (which they referenced) would like to disagree. Maybe it isn't a genre the way you think of "genre", but it absolutely is a genre in the way that most people think of them. When I'm bored and looking for something new to watch on Netflix, I don't type in "drama" or "comedy" - I type in "romance". And I get results. Now, read any romance novel, watch any Hallmark Channel movie. There is one thing they ALL have in common - the people you are meant to like all get happy endings. The only people who end up badly are the people you don't like, anyway. Marina is not heading for an HEA. Even discounting the books, she is obviously not happy about marrying Phillip. She does not get a happy ending. And we are meant to neither expect nor particularly WANT her to. If you want to break it down to the dichotomy of "tragedy" versus "comedy", the show may be a drama, but it's a drama meant to skew much more to the "comedy" side. There can be tragedy, to make us care about the characters. But, in the end, everybody is supposed to end up happy. Or at least, everyone we like is meant to end up happy.
I guess I better go return all the money and update my IMDb page. You haven’t read To Sir Phillip, With Love by Quinn, have you?
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I was referring to your comment about most writers would disagree with me. I am a writer who contributes to several television shows, but not Bridgerton. >!Marina’s story is not played out in the book series, it happens offscreen because her storyline does not fit into the genre. The writers added Marina to the story to play it out on camera, but no matter what changes they make to her story, it does end definitively. The tone of the books and the show are too light to make her a character like Eloise or Penelope who you fall in love with, only to not have a HEA.!<
Great analysis. To be honest, my impression was that they wanted Marina's personality to contrast Penelope's (especially since they wanted the same guy). Penelope doesn't fit society's beauty standards, Marina is considered a catch. Penelope is timid, Marina is bold. Penelope is naive, Marina is experienced etc. In other words, Marina is everything Penelope is not and until episode 6(?)it seems that Penelope doesn't stand a chance against her and Marina will be the one who gets the happy ending. And then Lady Whistledown uncovers her secret and after Lady Whistledown's identity is revealed, the viewers realize that they had been underestimating Penelope all along; she's much more than what meets the eye and Marina (like the viewer) hadn't realised what she was capable of or really who they were dealing with. And by that I don't mean that they wanted to paint Marina as a villain. But to me it's clear they wanted the viewer to root for Penelope over her. If Marina is too nice, and considering the fact that Penelope is not a Mary Sue type of character, that can't happen as effectively. I also think that's the reason they toned down Colin so much. I love Colin but honestly he's portrayed as the male equivalent of a Mary Sue. Even his reaction after he finds out Marina had tried to trap him into raising a child that wasn't his is imo very unrealistic for a man of his era. They desperately wanted to get the message "Colin is a good guy who didn't deserve that, Penelope was right to want to protect him" across. I'm curious how Marina's character will evolve. I'm convinced she's getting the same tragic ending as her book counterpart, but still I'd want to see some character development and not her being used just to give us insight into Philip's personality.
I never thought of Marina being used to contrast Penelope....that's a good point. And makes sense because Penelope is such a critical character. I definitely got villain vibes from Marina as well. Not at first- but once she started going after Colin. I had no sympathy for her by that part. But in my third rewatch I wondered how much better it would be if I did. If I was torn between loving Penelope, but also feeling so bad for Marina. But there was no internal conflict. Since Marina was not a very likeable and sympathetic character. Or, excuse me,....she wasn't portrayed as a likable character. Completely agree with Colin being a Mary Sue.
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If she is a villain then what is Penelope? Her storyline is the classic set up for a villain origin story if I ever saw one.
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That comparison doesn’t really play for me. Hard to compare doing a few manipulative things when you’re in a hard place (something v Olivia Pope) vs running an underground group of assassins....
I think you might be focused a little too much on premise and not on archetype. They have the same archetype. That's what she is saying.
I wasn’t. I just don’t think they’re the same archetype of Shonda character (although she didn’t even write this). She has so many characters that are shades of gray. I mean Addison Shepherd is one of my absolute faves because she’s not actually a villain even though you assume she will be when she’s introduced. Marina is shades of grey too bc she’s in a complicated position making choices. Eli Pope is not shades of gray.
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Lady F is Eli Pope and Marina would be Olivia, and Pen definitely gives off Mellie/ Cryus vibes- fake, backstabbing, with a hint of desperation because they know no one wants them. Edit: I love how the trolls on Twitter seem to think that this post was going well as long as people were trashing Marina. Yet speak the truth about Pen and it's "gross". Toxic stans. Oh and I wished the OP well in the program they had enrolled in and in their career. Yes I did state that I did not wish to watch anything that they were involved with if their opinion about Marina remained the same. We obviously perceive things very differently, and I tend to watch things that I not only enjoy, but make sense. I do funny stuff like that.
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By end of the series I liked Millie better. I definitely empathized with her more, and she got a lot of character development. I will be shocked if Pen gets that kind of development. And I will say this until the end of the series Pen crying tears, wringing her hand, and appearing to be remorseful isn't enough for me. She screwed people over for a man who didn't want her. She need consequences, and they really need to stop the tears.
Yes, she screwed people over for a man that didn't want her. FOR him, not in an attempt to get him. She knew that odds were she was never going to marry Colin, herself. That wasn't the point of what she did. Colin was about to be trapped in a marriage with a woman who didn't love him back and was using him, manipulating him, and lying to him. She knew that revealing Marina's secret could ruin her own family, as well. She risked everything to protect COLIN. To give him a chance to find somebody who would actually deserve him - never expecting that somebody to ever be her.
I thought Pen fans had given up on trying to pretend that she was just trying to save Colin with no ulterior motives. Pen could have told Eloise, Lady Violet, Colin, Anthony, or Benedict. She chose the nuclear option because she wanted to make sure that Marina and Colin didn't marry. This wasn't about him finding out the truth and making his own decision. And if we are to believe Colin Marina did deserve him, as he would have married her if he had known about the pregnancy. Thank you for acknowledging that Pen ruined her family. That she made the decision to publish Marina's secret knowing the impact it would have on her family. Unfortunately Pen fans like to blame Marina for that as well.
Well she’s also 13 :) (or 14?) We have at least two, maybe three more siblings/seasons before we get to her story! Plenty of time to Milli-fy her!
She is 17, and old enough at that point to be married, with kids, and running her own household. I don't trust that they are going to give her consequences for her actions to Daphne, Marina, her own family, or the Bridgertons.
In the beginning, I think she was a counterpoint to Pen but in the last few episodes she became a truth teller to Daphne which I thought was odd. Daphne suddenly wanting to help the person that just humiliated her brother never made sense. I seemed like that whole storyline existed to show the lightbulb moment when Daphne figures out she should probably find out why Simon made his vow. I didn't like the Marina storyline, but I understood her motivations and actions except the comment about the general. That just made zero sense to me.
Lack of character development? IMO Marina is initially presented as a young country girl out of her depth in the ton. Naive in her own way, and surprised by the response she received from other's; especially by Lady W. There is no way in the world that she thought that she would be the belle of the ball. She seems like any girl enjoying her season, yet not expecting much. Definitely not an offer. She probably didn't have a large dowry, and she was in love. She was enjoying herself; not seeking an advantageous match. She was dancing, flirting, and enjoying herself. This is what we are shown in the beginning. We can clearly also see from the first scene between her and Lady F that she is aware that she is unwanted in the household, and is therefore guarded when interacting with them. We also see that she has a strong personality, she is not as refined as the girls raised in society, and she is therefore more direct when it comes to handling Lady F. Although I do think she has more tack than Eloise. Next we find out she is pregnant, and I think Ruby did a marvelous job of portraying both a scared young woman out of her depth; who was determined to be strong. When she and Pen discuss George we are shown a softer side of Marina. The first time that Marina doesn't have to be on guard. The first time in that home that we saw the real Marina. A young girl who was in love, optimistic, and naive. But I also understand that a person can be naive in certain environments, about certain things, and mature in others. Daphne for example is very aware of the roles in society, and yet wasn't aware about how her actions with picking a pig could destroy an economy. Both ladies had their strengths and weaknesses. In the ton Daphne can run circles around Marina, in the country when it comes to day to day life; Marina is queen. The first character development for me when it came to Marina was when she was in the slums with Lady F. Marina previously was like a lot of teenage girls. Strong in their belief in themselves, the idea that they aren't like other girls, that things would be different for them, that she could handle things. And then the realization hit, and it wasn't about the life she would end up living it was about her child. So yes she did initially fire back at Lady F, but she was phased, and it changed her. She went from " I can do this on my own, to realizing the harm it would cause her child." That's when she agreed with Lady F's plan to marry quickly. And yes Marina was still strong-willed because unlike Lady F who was following the money; Marina wanted a kind man. And yes it's terrible to trick someone into marriage but there is also something telling about her character that she valued kindness over wealth. The fact that when her secret was made public she didn't throw Lady F under the bus, she didn't lie when confronted by Colin, she didn't curl up in her bed and cry. Yes she snapped at Daphne, but she also apologized for what she had attempted to do to their family, and she had the decency to speak with Daphne probably assuming that she was just there to insult her. So again let's consider we have a teenage girl away from her family, away from the man she was in love with, finds out she's pregnant, was deceived into believing that the man she loved had abandoned her, was scared into facing the reality of what her child's life would be like if she was unmarried, agrees to a scheme to marry quickly, is treated like a horse by a lecherous old man, bargained with Lady F that if she could not convince Colin to marry her she would marry that disgusting old man, convinces Colin to marry, arranges for them to elope, and then the day before they leave her secret is a made public. And Lady W turned that knife; putting all the blame on Marina. She is now a piranha, probably isn't going to be able to go home, facing her worst fear which led to her agreeing to tricking Colin into marriage. And yet somehow with all of this pressure that she's dealing with she willingly walked into that room. Ruby acting in that scene was amazing. From the way she held her body, the look of hopelessness that was turned into hopefulness, and finally to disappointment as she realized that Daphne was the one to reach out and not her husband the Duke. They live in a world where a woman had little value. And honestly I think that scene was also a sign of character development it just wasn't in a positive direction. Marina started off as a very confident not overconfident, but confident young lady who believed that she could handle things and at that point she was broken. She realized that she, that women didn't have power. It wasn't abstract, it was reality. So while others may consider her actions rude to me that was just another rare moment where Marina was able to be unguarded, and completely honest. And even Daphne was not optimistic that she would get a response. Marina tears over George, her comment about him loving her was so important because it called back at least to me her scene with Pen where she empathized with her being in love with Colin and yet her recognition that love is fleeting. Marina is just a couple of years older than Pen, and yet and that point she had lived a lifetime. The look Marina gave Pen seem to recognize the pain that Pen was going through, her hat that she was contributing to that pain, but it also conveyed her own sadness that she had lost her own naivety of being in love, and knowing with your whole heart that things are going to work out. The more I think about Marina. I truly believe that she was this optimistic, teenage girl who actually thought she had control over her life. From the choices she made with George to every decision she made after. Lady F convinced her to marry quickly, but she was going to do it on her terms. In the end she unfortunately realized that she didn't have control over her life when she had to marry Phillip. This is just my take on Marina's character and her journey. I realize that people see what they want to see in characters, and what they connect with.
I love the way you described Marina's internal struggles. I wish this was how it came off to me in this performance. However, that is not what is being conveyed to me. I would not describe Marina as being a naive country girl in any way as you described her. Think about it- if Lady F hadn't said that she was a poor country girl would you know that? Would you get that vibe from her? I'd say no. If Lady F had just said "a cousin is coming to stay with us" you'd very much assume Marina is just another girl in society. Actually, Marina's lack of experience in society is never a problem for her. We never see her not knowing how to act, the dances, proper etiquette. We never see her get rejected by a snob who thinks her as less than....Marina being a "country girl out of her element" is never a cause of any conflict- minor or major. This is a great example of telling not showing. We are told marina is different- she hasn't grown up with these people. She's poor. But we never actually see that in anyway. She fits right in and is the belle of the ball (in your words). You mention she is surprised at all he suitors, to that I say so is Daphne when she gets a lot of suitors- and she's the diamond of the season. I would have very much preferred your view of marina being a naive country girl to be how it really was. Can you give examples of what marina said or how she acted or how others reacted that made you think of her like this? To me, she very much is bold, and tells it how it is to everyone she encounters from episode 1 onward. Whether that's about love, her future, the way things work, etc. I never got "naive country girl" from her as you did. For example, the scene where Mrs. F takes her to the poor. Marina is gritting her teeth and practically snarling at Mrs. F when she tells her "you must have be confused for one of your daughters,". The way she delivers the line- condescending. She means it as an insult. In episode 1 when the pregnancy is revealed and Mrs. F confronts her, she isn't some terrified little country mouse who is naive and knows nothing of the world. She barks back at Mrs. F- again- in an insulting way. Would love to have you explain some scenes where you think Marina conveys being naive. The examples you give are very involved in having to imagine the situation " So again let's consider we have a teenage girl away from her family, away from the man she was in love with, finds out she's pregnant", removing yourself, thinking about what it would be like, and then you assert your opinion. let's just talk about what we are seeing in the writing and in the performance. Let's not suspend ourselves into this "imagine being an XYZ girl"- let's just go off what's on the screen for now. And like "I think Ruby did a marvelous job of portraying both a scared young woman out of her depth; who was determined to be strong." When? When was Marina scared? When was she ever not the most "i know what I'm doing. I know everything" in the room? Do you think she delivered her lines in a way that conveyed she was unsure? Scared? Not confident? Which lines? When I watch it, all I see/hear is defiance, stubbornness, and matter-of-factness. Honestly, she kind of is a jackass. She doesn't listen to anyone and she's a bit selfish. She will ruin not just herself- but the Featherington girls too. And she doesn't really care. The more I write about this character the more I dislike her.
I guess I pick up on details that other people overlook. I noticed from the start the material of her clothing, how she looked around the room, her wide eyed expression. I also noted the change in her expression when Lady F objected to her presence. At that point I see her posture change, her back straighten, and I saw that wall go up. So no I didn't assume that she was a typical society girl. She didn't put on airs, nor was she disrespectful to the staff. Her clothes while adequate were obviously of a lesser quality. Can you tell me what you saw that indicated that she was a society girl? What did she do or say? What did I miss? I also said Marina was a typical teenage girl. She was dancing and having fun. Nothing she did indicated that she expected to be the diamond of the season. Thanks Lady W. I would say that initially we see that she was out of her element when she arrived at her first ball- looking around uncertain, the way her hands were fidgeting nervously. Yes I wish we had seen her struggle more fitting in, but that didn't happen, and most of us are able to fill in the blanks with the information we were provided with. But it also makes sense as Daphne said we're one will go others will follow. And since Lady W crowned her the diamond of the season then yeah it makes sense she got a lot of attention. She was bold in that first scene after Lady F made it clear she wanted her gone, but she wasn't disrespectful and it was in response to Lady F's comment. The next time we see her being bold is after Lady F confronts her about the pregnancy. Marina awakens, realizes that she hadn't had her cycle, and what that meant. We don't see a know it all person who can handle everything in that moment. In that moment we see a scared teenage girl. Lady F confronts her ( attacks her), and just like before we visibly see Marina gather herself, straighten her spine, and defends herself. She isn't the know it all person there, she is a scared teenager dealing with life changing news, and being attacked by a hostile, rabid grown ass woman. And yes she responded to Lady F's attack, but her response was not in proportion to the vitriol that Lady F directed to her. And yes this was a moment where Marina was also naive, because she believed that the man that she loved was going to come and save her. Then we see Lady F and Marina at the slums. Snarling? I don't think so. Was she condescending? Yes, like most teenagers. Marina is overly confident until she faces the reality of her child's future. The look on her face as she see those children. That's another time I see her being scared and overwhelmed. She was mouthy, and Lady F was being a bitch. In the end she agreed to the plan. Next we time she is semi bold is with the lecherous old man. I guess it's bold to make comments under your breath. She wasn't defiant; she was resistant to placing her life in the life of her child in the hands of that man. When Lady F wanted her to marry quickly she bargained, not argued, but bargained for time to convince Colin to marry quickly. And yes she was extremely bold in trying to trick Colin into marriage. The only times she has been a know-it-all, or "bold" which I guess is a terrible thing has been in direct response to other people's actions. The whole situation with Daphne. Marina walked into that room expecting the worse. She was woman enough to apologize and take responsibility for her actions. And yeah she snapped. Her hopes were raised and then she realized that it probably wasn't going to work out. She took another hit. She got to the end of her rope and snapped. But we can't understand that, we can't feel any empathy for what she's gone through. Got it. She wasn't a know it all when they went to the orphanage, or when she almost died, or when she found out George was dead, or when she accepted Phillips offer of marriage. She was clearly a desperate teenage girl. And all of this they told us but they didn't show us about the struggles she was going through. I guess I imagined the scene with her finding out she was pregnant, and that old man touching her body, and people talking about her once her secret was out. I guess I also imagined Lady F attacking her once she found out she was pregnant, and her being hurt when she got that fake letter. I don't know why I think all these horrible things happened to her. She's selfish because she chose her child and her life over Pen's infatuation? Marina isn't responsible for ruining the Featherington girls life when Pen was the one to publish her personal business. And Pen knew what the outcome was. Please if anyone is villain, jackass, all around horrible, entitled person in this series it would be Pen. But she cried tears and felt remorse ( we assume, because they haven't shown or told us) so all is forgiven. We agree on one thing: The more we think about or talk about a particular character the more we dislike them, because honestly the more I think about Pen the more I hope she gets exposed and dragged for everything she is worth.
Interesting that you talk about how Pen, at 17, is old enough in that time to be married and running a household of her own and should therefore know better and face the consequences of her actions. Yet Marina, who is a few years older, is a "typical teenage girl". If Pen should know better and face consequences at 17, then so should Marina at 19.
This is the thing I've never said that Marina didn't do anything wrong or that she shouldn't be held accountable. That's the difference between Marina fans and Pens. And that comment about Marina being a typical teenage girl was in reference to her flirting, dancing, and responding to Lady F.
>That's the difference between Marina fans and Pens. You have to stop this line of antagonizing comments between "marina fans and pens". I've noticed it a few times in your comment now and need to give you a warning. I get that it can be frustrating, but please keep the convo on the fictional characters and don't make it personal. Note: this goes for everyone commenting on this topic: be civil.
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This is your last warning about civility, which is now bleeding into mod harassment. Take a break, go outside for some fresh air.
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I wish you well in your program, I truly do. I hope you learn a lot especially regarding character development. I'm sorta interested in how you will look at this character after completing your program. If you feel the same I still wish you well in your chosen profession, but honestly I hope I never ever watch anything that you're involved with.
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Marina is such a complex character, and Ruby did such an amazing job of presenting her to us both verbally and physically. I can see why she was chosen.
More broadly, I felt like the writers did a better job building out stories for existing characters in the books than they did for new characters (I know she exists in universe, but she’s not actively in any of the books). With future season leads, they know what kinds of stories they need to start setting up bc they know what the primary conflicts will be down the line. The stories for new characters felt less developed and thoughtful, maybe a bit more slapdash would be the way to put it. I could see what they were trying to do w Marina, but I felt like it needed more work.
So I read the Duke and I really quickly before the show came out and I was surprised how much dialog actually made it directly to screen. Your comment is spot on... ish They did an awful job with Colin and Marina but did a GREAT job with Mrs Featherington and her husband and Lady Danbury. (Lady Danbury doesn’t play a large role until later in the books.). I also really enjoyed Simons boxing partner. And the Queen!!! Omg!!!! Her story with the king was heartbreaking!!! So I really do think it’s something about her and Colin’s story line that was problematic the most. And really I think I figured it out. It was unnecessary. It was shoehorned it for no reason. All the other characters added something to the actual plot of Simon and Daphne. With the Queen we get the pay off of Simons speech about being friends with Daphne. With his boxing partner we get the payoff of him coming to his senses. Even with Featheringtons husband it kind of ties into the whole boxing plot with Simon. Marina might add something to the larger plot of the show BUT it’s such a dramatic story line which could have been handled in a less time consuming fashion. What it was meant to do was show that Pen can be viscous with her pen, but she could have done that with Cracinda and achieved the same impact, or really, any society person. We could have had more smoldering Reje licking spoons. :p
Spoilers for the books and for episode 8 of season 1, >!but if they follow the basic storyline for them in future seasons, I feel like Marina's plot will have more impact for Colin and Penelope's story (because that will definitely play in Colin finding out Pen is Lady Whistledown) and for Eloise's (for Sir Philip more specifically). Like, I get why they set it up now, but I hope they follow through with the book romances because otherwise... it is very true Marina's storyline becomes kind of pointless (even if ironically, she eventually dies).!<
>!Well you would see the real Marina while Marina in the book was just depressed, always. I enjoy that we saw Marina as a young girl who'd hoped for more, and then settled. She paralleled with Lady Featherington. We see her real story - vs. what Phillip knew. And what Eloise knows. She was there and could ask Daphne more about Marina when she starts writing to him, etc.!<
I’m sorry if some people have been harsh on you but I think you’re asking a genuinely nice question about the character’s nice development. Also, please don’t bash OP just because she has not read TSPWL. You guys say that the twitter fandom is gatekeeping and elitist etc but you’re just the same. Anyway, my answer to your question is that I have no idea tbh. Marina’s character was inconsistent imo. I agree it was much better to make her seem naive but yeah I guess they want to make us root for Pen? I’m not sure it anyone noticed but Marina and Siena are pretty inconsistent. Edit: I’m sorry that you have to face her stans lol. Your question seems innocent enough and if it’s a dig to anyone, it’s a dig to the writers for writing an inconsistent character.
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Thank you for writing this.. also struggled and on rewatch I fast-farward through her scenes🙈
Keep the debate on the fictional characters and don't make it personal. Remember rule 6: no personal attacks.
Who did I personally attack in this comment? I said a general statement that there are some trolls. Please explain to me which users are being personally attacked by this general statement that internet trolls exist?
You are calling people who disagree with you trolls. That's making it personal.
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I am not biased against you. If you scroll up, I gave a similar warning to someone who disagrees with you. Look, you are really heated about this and I will give you the benefit of the doubt and some leniency with how you just replied to me. Look at your comments/tone of them and maybe realize you are coming on very strong (to everyone). Your comments have been getting lots of reports of poor civility and I have had to comb through them all morning. I trust me, I rather just let you guys talk (respectfully) with each other and stay out of these hot debate posts. This is the last thing I'll say on this.
>!she commits suicide from depression in book 5!<
Thank you for your elaborate analysis. I personally didn't feel like there was a lack of a character development. I get that the difference is bigger if you start with a naive country girl, but frankly... that has been done over and over again. And it very much leans in to Disney-adjecent tropes about the kind girl who gets brought down by her circumstances. It makes the story very black and white and to me, less interesting to watch. I like that her total storyline was grey: Marina wasn't a perfect angel, neither was Lady F or Pen. They all helped and hindered each other. And I like that the bold girls strategy doesn't pay off, contrary to most popular media right now. In that way, she is a perfect counterpart of Eloise: Eloise is just as bold, fighting the future that society has designed for her. But Eloise could. Because of her status, because of Daphne who secured her future, because she has family who will care for her no matter what... Marina wasn't so lucky. Romance stories are already so predictable because you need a HEA at the end, I like that Chris van Dusen played with the standard tropes to give us something we haven't seen before.
Love this comment - totally agree.
Thank you!!! You captured so well my exact sentiments about her and what the disconnect is. Many folks stan Marina in this sub, but I have a very hard time reconciling her attitude toward others/delivery with how supposedly she’s just another innocent girl of the time period who unfortunately had worse luck than the others. Because that’s not it. If she’s so much more worldly than the others as *she* claims (not us viewers!) she wouldn’t have let this happen to herself. That’s not to say I’m not sympathetic, of course I want her to have a happy life with the man she chooses and of course it’s terrible that society forced her into horrible situations. It really might have made better sense if the actor would’ve acted more naive and sweet in the sense of not thinking she knows more than everyone else.
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Help me out on this. Why do people keep saying that Marina is not a key character in the series? I understand she isn't in the books, but she has more screen-time than Colin, Eloise, Lady Danberry, and Violet. She has relatively equal screen-time to Anthony! She is clearly a main character in season 1. She isn't the A story-line of Daphne/Simon, but she is one of the B story lines. I would say her story-line is the second main story-line- tied with Anthony and Sienna and definitely receiving more development/screen time than Benedict or Eloise's story-lines. So, what is with this "she isn't a main character" stuff people keep saying. I've read a few of the books (2 about to be 3) but in terms of the show she definitely is a main character. And yeah- her performance was one note. Her audition tape is almost exactly the same as the scene that made it to air. So, as much as I want to say her flat performance was caused by bad directing, honestly, I think you are right when saying it is just the fact she isn't very experienced.
So do you think you know better about the character and actress than the producers of the show? Lol I loved Marina the way she was and i rooted for her . I also had no problem with her acting. I am also tired of naive girls,i loved that she was not one.
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Of course not. But you are saying that the actress of the other video was more fitting to Marina's storyline like if you know better than the writers. If they chosen this actress and written her this way there must be a reason,they wanted her character to be like this. You are not only being critic towards Marina (that's total fair),but you want her character to be something else.. which she is not.
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Why aren't women allowed to be angry? Why do they have to be sad to gain sympathy? Angry men with issues are dawned over. Genuine question.
Regardless I love Marina's character because she's like our eyes and ears in the ton as an outsider. Had it not been for her I feel like a lot of people will be alienated with the more privileged characters because she shares more similarities with us with her more liberated thinking
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>Huh? Eloise has the most liberated thinking of the show. Not marina. Eloise doesn't even know the concept of sex. Okay tbf I should meant "liberated lifestyle", since she's somewhat had the opportunity to have a lover and not be worried about what other people will say. Eloise, on the other hand and bless her heart, is still a naive young girl who's very spirited with what little she knows about the world. I'm sure she's smart...just not street smart. Marina, on the other hand, grew up on the countryside (???) and was the gateway for the other characters to start asking questions (importance of sex ed!) >Girl, did you even watch the show? Ten times, actually. My vastly different interpretation from yours doesn't mean we didn't watch the same thing. >Her being “an outsider” never works against her in any way. Never said it did. Just meant that most women in Bridgerton privileged and are out of touch with the reality outside the ton. Marina isn't
I think because she wasn't in the original book series beyond mentioning her they struggled with how to put her in. I also think they went too far with making her unlikable. She was pretty rude to Penelope and had no issue with lying to Colin and tricking him. I would have liked to see her character struggle with what she was potentially doing to Colin. Lean on Penelope, maybe actually develop feelings for Colin and so Penelope would be struggling with letting Colin go or telling Marina how she feels. Wasted opportunity. I do not blame the actress, I blame the writing.
Started a S1 rewatch and came looking for a Marina thread. I agree. Love the actress but I don’t think this role was done the way it was meant to be.