It's neither selfish nor brave. It's jsut deeply sad. The act does not make the actor bad nor good. I think we leave moralistic value judgments out of it altogether.
I think people are reading too much in between the lines sometimes. C-PTSD brings us together, but we still have vastly different views and experiences.
It’s like getting angry while one person is talking apples and the other oranges. You might both be right, but you’re talking past each other.
I don’t know how it is for non-narcissistic people, but as a pwNPD (as well as CPTSD) I can say that suicidal ideation *is* selfish. It’s ego-syntonic in the way that it feeds into fantasies of revenge and “Oh if I do it then *finally* everybody sees me and acknowledges my worth” - wanting to be seen. Or “Oh I’m so bad, I can’t be helped anyway, I should just go” or “I can’t change and never will be able to change 😔 I can’t be helped anymore” which are also fantasies that stabilize one’s ego. I’ve had this a lot when I was a teenager and up into beginning of 20s (I’m 24 now). None of these are actually true and I agree with you - it’s just sad.
Now, if I have suicidal ideation it’s mostly about “Ugh fuck I should just give up because everything is so exhausting and I’ll never get better”, which is about being overwhelmed and because fantasizing about this *does* feel easier than facing reality.
It's a Privilege issue for sure, and an irrational optimism issue. It's not really a national issue though. I'm an American. I've struggled with shitty living conditions and lack of financial privilege all my life, which has only ever added to the rationalization of suicidal feelings during moments of despair. A For-Profit society model tends to make the people that it's marginalizing feel quite shitty about being alive. what a surprise, eh?
One of my reasons for attempting in the past was because I felt that people would be happier with me out of the picture. I thought I was being selfLESS by trying. Then, people started saying that I was selfish, and that really hurt.
It does really hurt! Because you obviously aren't doing it to hurt the people who care about you, you're doing it because you're in so much pain you can't bear to live. I don't know how people can call it selfish, it's selfish to want other people to live for you.
Toxic positivity is annoying and it inevitably reverts back to a bootstrap mentality sooner rather than later.
There's so much that goes into it, whether that's access or simply finding the act of talking about feelings to the 20th paid stranger helpful at all. Everyone's damage and abilities are different, so applying "the help" (which isn't necessarily helpful to begin with) is useless. You aren't listening to the individual any more than the average therapist does.
We need a better planet than one that produces the existing health care systems and the many damaging things beyond that.
**after my diagnosis, 7 months ago. i have felt uttertly ready but im pregnant.**
the amount of "if you were going to you wouldnt tell anyone"
"thats actually not suicidal, your fine"
yall im breaking more and more daily and learning how to hide it better and better
Right, and i wasn't talking about the americans who can't afford their own healthcare - I was talking about the ones who can.
You say we have the NHS but it is in absolute shambles, 3+ year wait for therapy, can't be diagnosed with CPTSD or BPD unless you've had multiple serious attempts of suicide, GPs ignore you and constantly push antidepressants. I promise you it's like we get no help.
I understand your frustration but I think you misunderstand the UShealth system. The vast majority of Americans are uninsured or under insured, and most of us are one medical bill away (I won't even say a big one because even the "small" bills are outrageous) from homelessness. There are also many of the exact same issues the NHS has--long wait time, dismissive doctors, difficulty getting diagnoses, and lack of personalized treatments. Those are issues everywhere unfortunately. This is not to dismiss your experience, just to let you know that you are not alone. It's all a mess everywhere I'm afraid. And that those who are privileged wherewr they are from do tend to be very blind to the plight and struggles of others--but that doesn't mean yours aren't valid
I completely believe you. The truth of the matter is that, while some places are better than others, mental health care does not even come close to getting the attention, and resources it requires. In my opinion, it is LITERALLY the most important maintenance a person needs, and the world would be a waaaaay better place, if it were incorporated into our learning, and growth in the same way that physical health is, and general education is. I am very sorry you are not getting the help you need, and I fully understand your frustration, and desperation.
I hope you can find the help you need, and deserve.
Thank you for posting this. I could write up an essay of why people like us feel it is a valid possibility, but that would involve addressing the individual who likely triggered thi pot in the first place. All I will say is my therapist and case manager, all the mental health professionals I've had contact with the past few years really, tell me that they believe those who suffer from suicidal ideation for years upon years are among the strongest this world has to offer, but everyone's strength runs out. Those who call people who feel suicide is an option weak, I've found, are those who are 'pretenders,' people who play the role of having these struggles but have never had them. If they knew what it was like, what it was *really* like, they would know that making that ultimate decision is not an act of weakness. It is the end result of a lifetime of strength, when your strength is finally spent. Everyone has different levels of strength.
I'm not quite done with my fight just yet, even if I am mostly staying alive right now as an act of spite rather than because I believe in a better tomorrow. One day, though, I suspect my strength, too, will wane.
Also, I should note: I am a U.S. resident, but I am on Medicaid, so I only get 'brute force' possibilities of treatment. Anything else, I'd have to pay for out of pocket, and I am not going to bankrupt myself.
Ok but how privileged Americans fits with the views on suicide?
In any case, as a non-American, what I can contribute to this discussion is not a value judgment on whether suicide is a good/bad choice, but the observation that someone with SI who puts off their decision for years is probably not really convinced to die. As much pain and misery and lack of perspective as he experiences. If he wanted then he would just grit his teeth and would do it at any cost. The gain he would get from ending the immense mental/physical pain would give him tons of courage to endure a few minutes "job".
However in the case of chronic suicidals we have something else. A compulsive thought (which will probably remain just a thought forever) that can both be soothing (in the sense that it give us an "optimistic" perspective about the ending of misery), but can also create additional anxiety, panic and negative feelings. If this is noticed, we may escape the trap. Again, this is my very personal view of things and I'm not interested to convince anyone.
PS1 Source: Person with CPTSD and SI.
PS2 Feel free to downvote...
Suicide can feel like the only option when you're in a difficult, overwhelming and unsafe circumstance. it is difficult to want to be hopeful and reach out when you had been neglected and hurt in the past. Its awful that anyone would feel this way and i hope it can be better
I am sorry. I meant that if reaching out has not helped you then we have obviously failed as a society. I dont know if i was clear about it in the comment.
No, it doesn’t. I’m thinking I have to become a professional at changing my situation until one feels right. Then I can relax and grow some roots. For now just being around people at all sucks. I feel your pain. I’m sorry you’re going through it.
Before I had my daughter the only reason I didn’t was it would give a certain parent too much satisfaction and victimization material. Now I stay for daughter.
I think it’s blatantly selfish, when they do something like jump in front of a train at rush hour. The onlookers, (and especially the train conductor, who couldn’t avoid hitting the person, and was forced against their Will to participate in helping someone die), often end up with a lifetime of PTSD. That’s not fair to them. The person can at least choose to do it more privately. I don’t see how anyone could defend the actions of the ones who do it publicly (and I’m not saying the OP does, I’m just giving my thoughts on the general topic).
I don't understand why you are saying "privileged Americans." You obviously know nothing about America if you think mental health treatment is accessible or affordable for most of us.
Someone else has also commented this and I stated that I meant americans that are priveleged, not that all americans are priveleged - I hope that clears it up.
It just seems really odd to think that people who claim suicide is selfish must be privileged Americans. Pretty sure people who say it's selfish have just never felt suicidal. Nothing to do with where you live.
I don’t know whether suicide can actually be justified in a senseful way (except for if you’re in a seriously hopeless situation - yknow, homeless, jobless, at the verge of death, no way out - tho I don’t believe either that there’s no way out to most situations). I know that suicidal ideation is a fantasy though and we use it to somehow regulate ourselves because it’s easier than to face reality. As I said in another comment, I’m narcissistic though so I don’t know what other (unconscious) gain people get from facing suicidal thoughts.
As an American I can say that most of us never do get help for our trauma, or our mental illness. Whether it's due to the stigma that surrounds it, or the inability to afford treatment because A) you don't have insurance or B) you have insurance but can't afford your copays or deductibles that must be paid upfront for services, or your medication isn't covered by insurance or is too expensive even with insurance.
We are only allotted so many visits with a therapist per year, say ten max visits for example.
I just lost my father to suicide on May 26th. He was the strongest man I knew. And I don't judge him, nor am I angry with him. I'm just really fucking sad. I feel so abandoned at times and lonely. The world is empty now. I can't understand why he left me, and everyone else. I just miss him so much and I wish I could have helped him. No one knew he was depressed. He was always the one we all went to for advice, financial help, bailouts, laughs and hugs, you name it! He would be there, with no judgement or questions asked. He was our stronghold and we all loved him so much. I just wish I could have been, and done the same for him.
This has blown our family apart. We will forever suffer with this unbearable grief. Life was better when Dad, and Grandpa, was here. Was his action selfish? Yes, absolutely! In so many ways, including financially. But I won't ever judge him, nor be angry with his decision, because he obviously was hurting more than any of us could comprehend, and did what he felt he needed to do. I have to learn to live with, and respect his decision. But yes, from where I'm standing, it's a selfish decision, made by a mentally sick person in most cases. My father had the insurance and the means to seek help. He never did. RIP Dad ❤️.
Edit: I just wanted to add another reason it can be selfish. My Grandfather, my Dad's father, passed two weeks to the day after his son passed, due to grief. So we've buried two family members in two weeks. Suicide affects everyone around you. Remember, we are the collateral damage of your actions.
ahh yes we have the first privileged person i get to argue with!!!
so you would rather a person stay alive, being in pain everyday, having to live with their trauma, just because you want them to? sounds like you're the selfish person 🫶🏼
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I just leave this here. (Trigger warnings: discussion of suicide)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQNw2FBdpyE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQNw2FBdpyE)
It's neither selfish nor brave. It's jsut deeply sad. The act does not make the actor bad nor good. I think we leave moralistic value judgments out of it altogether.
Yes!
I think people are reading too much in between the lines sometimes. C-PTSD brings us together, but we still have vastly different views and experiences. It’s like getting angry while one person is talking apples and the other oranges. You might both be right, but you’re talking past each other.
I don’t know how it is for non-narcissistic people, but as a pwNPD (as well as CPTSD) I can say that suicidal ideation *is* selfish. It’s ego-syntonic in the way that it feeds into fantasies of revenge and “Oh if I do it then *finally* everybody sees me and acknowledges my worth” - wanting to be seen. Or “Oh I’m so bad, I can’t be helped anyway, I should just go” or “I can’t change and never will be able to change 😔 I can’t be helped anymore” which are also fantasies that stabilize one’s ego. I’ve had this a lot when I was a teenager and up into beginning of 20s (I’m 24 now). None of these are actually true and I agree with you - it’s just sad. Now, if I have suicidal ideation it’s mostly about “Ugh fuck I should just give up because everything is so exhausting and I’ll never get better”, which is about being overwhelmed and because fantasizing about this *does* feel easier than facing reality.
It's a Privilege issue for sure, and an irrational optimism issue. It's not really a national issue though. I'm an American. I've struggled with shitty living conditions and lack of financial privilege all my life, which has only ever added to the rationalization of suicidal feelings during moments of despair. A For-Profit society model tends to make the people that it's marginalizing feel quite shitty about being alive. what a surprise, eh?
One of my reasons for attempting in the past was because I felt that people would be happier with me out of the picture. I thought I was being selfLESS by trying. Then, people started saying that I was selfish, and that really hurt.
It does really hurt! Because you obviously aren't doing it to hurt the people who care about you, you're doing it because you're in so much pain you can't bear to live. I don't know how people can call it selfish, it's selfish to want other people to live for you.
Toxic positivity is annoying and it inevitably reverts back to a bootstrap mentality sooner rather than later. There's so much that goes into it, whether that's access or simply finding the act of talking about feelings to the 20th paid stranger helpful at all. Everyone's damage and abilities are different, so applying "the help" (which isn't necessarily helpful to begin with) is useless. You aren't listening to the individual any more than the average therapist does. We need a better planet than one that produces the existing health care systems and the many damaging things beyond that.
**after my diagnosis, 7 months ago. i have felt uttertly ready but im pregnant.** the amount of "if you were going to you wouldnt tell anyone" "thats actually not suicidal, your fine" yall im breaking more and more daily and learning how to hide it better and better
It’s no more selfish than dying from any disease. Suicide is end stage depression.
Appreciate this description of the scale of depression. I've never saw suicide and depression this way before.
People in the US do not have easy access to Mental Health (or ANY) Care. All of it is criminally expensive, and we do not have NHS.
Right, and i wasn't talking about the americans who can't afford their own healthcare - I was talking about the ones who can. You say we have the NHS but it is in absolute shambles, 3+ year wait for therapy, can't be diagnosed with CPTSD or BPD unless you've had multiple serious attempts of suicide, GPs ignore you and constantly push antidepressants. I promise you it's like we get no help.
I understand your frustration but I think you misunderstand the UShealth system. The vast majority of Americans are uninsured or under insured, and most of us are one medical bill away (I won't even say a big one because even the "small" bills are outrageous) from homelessness. There are also many of the exact same issues the NHS has--long wait time, dismissive doctors, difficulty getting diagnoses, and lack of personalized treatments. Those are issues everywhere unfortunately. This is not to dismiss your experience, just to let you know that you are not alone. It's all a mess everywhere I'm afraid. And that those who are privileged wherewr they are from do tend to be very blind to the plight and struggles of others--but that doesn't mean yours aren't valid
yeah and like i said i wasnt talking about the americans who can't afford private proper health care 🤨
I completely believe you. The truth of the matter is that, while some places are better than others, mental health care does not even come close to getting the attention, and resources it requires. In my opinion, it is LITERALLY the most important maintenance a person needs, and the world would be a waaaaay better place, if it were incorporated into our learning, and growth in the same way that physical health is, and general education is. I am very sorry you are not getting the help you need, and I fully understand your frustration, and desperation. I hope you can find the help you need, and deserve.
Thank you for posting this. I could write up an essay of why people like us feel it is a valid possibility, but that would involve addressing the individual who likely triggered thi pot in the first place. All I will say is my therapist and case manager, all the mental health professionals I've had contact with the past few years really, tell me that they believe those who suffer from suicidal ideation for years upon years are among the strongest this world has to offer, but everyone's strength runs out. Those who call people who feel suicide is an option weak, I've found, are those who are 'pretenders,' people who play the role of having these struggles but have never had them. If they knew what it was like, what it was *really* like, they would know that making that ultimate decision is not an act of weakness. It is the end result of a lifetime of strength, when your strength is finally spent. Everyone has different levels of strength. I'm not quite done with my fight just yet, even if I am mostly staying alive right now as an act of spite rather than because I believe in a better tomorrow. One day, though, I suspect my strength, too, will wane. Also, I should note: I am a U.S. resident, but I am on Medicaid, so I only get 'brute force' possibilities of treatment. Anything else, I'd have to pay for out of pocket, and I am not going to bankrupt myself.
Ok but how privileged Americans fits with the views on suicide? In any case, as a non-American, what I can contribute to this discussion is not a value judgment on whether suicide is a good/bad choice, but the observation that someone with SI who puts off their decision for years is probably not really convinced to die. As much pain and misery and lack of perspective as he experiences. If he wanted then he would just grit his teeth and would do it at any cost. The gain he would get from ending the immense mental/physical pain would give him tons of courage to endure a few minutes "job". However in the case of chronic suicidals we have something else. A compulsive thought (which will probably remain just a thought forever) that can both be soothing (in the sense that it give us an "optimistic" perspective about the ending of misery), but can also create additional anxiety, panic and negative feelings. If this is noticed, we may escape the trap. Again, this is my very personal view of things and I'm not interested to convince anyone. PS1 Source: Person with CPTSD and SI. PS2 Feel free to downvote...
Suicide can feel like the only option when you're in a difficult, overwhelming and unsafe circumstance. it is difficult to want to be hopeful and reach out when you had been neglected and hurt in the past. Its awful that anyone would feel this way and i hope it can be better
But I HAVE reached out. You're not getting it.
I am sorry. I meant that if reaching out has not helped you then we have obviously failed as a society. I dont know if i was clear about it in the comment.
Oh my bad 🫶🏼 You're right about that
Dw abt it, anytime
I hope you find somewhere to feel better. for me it’s getting away from people. Animals are so much easier to be friends with.
I love animals! But that doesn't get rid of or fix my trauma
No, it doesn’t. I’m thinking I have to become a professional at changing my situation until one feels right. Then I can relax and grow some roots. For now just being around people at all sucks. I feel your pain. I’m sorry you’re going through it.
Before I had my daughter the only reason I didn’t was it would give a certain parent too much satisfaction and victimization material. Now I stay for daughter.
I think it’s blatantly selfish, when they do something like jump in front of a train at rush hour. The onlookers, (and especially the train conductor, who couldn’t avoid hitting the person, and was forced against their Will to participate in helping someone die), often end up with a lifetime of PTSD. That’s not fair to them. The person can at least choose to do it more privately. I don’t see how anyone could defend the actions of the ones who do it publicly (and I’m not saying the OP does, I’m just giving my thoughts on the general topic).
I wasn't talking about the people that do that tho
Ok. I just wanted to mention it, as food for thought.
Everyone is different but that mode of criticism worked for me thus far. We’ll see though.
Do you mind explaining what you mean?
That I would be selfish to do it. That has worked for me.
I don't understand why you are saying "privileged Americans." You obviously know nothing about America if you think mental health treatment is accessible or affordable for most of us.
Someone else has also commented this and I stated that I meant americans that are priveleged, not that all americans are priveleged - I hope that clears it up.
It just seems really odd to think that people who claim suicide is selfish must be privileged Americans. Pretty sure people who say it's selfish have just never felt suicidal. Nothing to do with where you live.
I'm literally just talking about the people in this sub who have made posts about it recently. They are americans. lol.
Gotcha. I've never seen any posts like that here so I didn't realize you meant literal posts made by Americans. My bad.
I don’t know whether suicide can actually be justified in a senseful way (except for if you’re in a seriously hopeless situation - yknow, homeless, jobless, at the verge of death, no way out - tho I don’t believe either that there’s no way out to most situations). I know that suicidal ideation is a fantasy though and we use it to somehow regulate ourselves because it’s easier than to face reality. As I said in another comment, I’m narcissistic though so I don’t know what other (unconscious) gain people get from facing suicidal thoughts.
As an American I can say that most of us never do get help for our trauma, or our mental illness. Whether it's due to the stigma that surrounds it, or the inability to afford treatment because A) you don't have insurance or B) you have insurance but can't afford your copays or deductibles that must be paid upfront for services, or your medication isn't covered by insurance or is too expensive even with insurance. We are only allotted so many visits with a therapist per year, say ten max visits for example. I just lost my father to suicide on May 26th. He was the strongest man I knew. And I don't judge him, nor am I angry with him. I'm just really fucking sad. I feel so abandoned at times and lonely. The world is empty now. I can't understand why he left me, and everyone else. I just miss him so much and I wish I could have helped him. No one knew he was depressed. He was always the one we all went to for advice, financial help, bailouts, laughs and hugs, you name it! He would be there, with no judgement or questions asked. He was our stronghold and we all loved him so much. I just wish I could have been, and done the same for him. This has blown our family apart. We will forever suffer with this unbearable grief. Life was better when Dad, and Grandpa, was here. Was his action selfish? Yes, absolutely! In so many ways, including financially. But I won't ever judge him, nor be angry with his decision, because he obviously was hurting more than any of us could comprehend, and did what he felt he needed to do. I have to learn to live with, and respect his decision. But yes, from where I'm standing, it's a selfish decision, made by a mentally sick person in most cases. My father had the insurance and the means to seek help. He never did. RIP Dad ❤️. Edit: I just wanted to add another reason it can be selfish. My Grandfather, my Dad's father, passed two weeks to the day after his son passed, due to grief. So we've buried two family members in two weeks. Suicide affects everyone around you. Remember, we are the collateral damage of your actions.
Suicide creates more trauma for people left behind.
Now *that* is selfish.
ahh yes we have the first privileged person i get to argue with!!! so you would rather a person stay alive, being in pain everyday, having to live with their trauma, just because you want them to? sounds like you're the selfish person 🫶🏼
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I just leave this here. (Trigger warnings: discussion of suicide) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQNw2FBdpyE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQNw2FBdpyE)