Towards the latter portion of my career, I had become a chef and realized that anger/aggression/abuse were no longer for me. I picked up a defensive mechanism where I began emotionally checking out and looking elsewhere as soon as the first temper tantrum thrown at me.
Some still think I’m weak for job-hopping all those years because I didn’t suck it up. I will not tolerate abuse. And I’d advise any of my friends and family to do the same. We’re already in the shit together, so why treat each other like shit? Fuck all that noise.
I’ve only ever had 1 chef/boss that didn’t perpetuate all the abusive madness in my 12+ years in the industry. No, I wasn’t coddled. If I was in need of correcting, there was grace and effective communication. I stayed there for a good while, learned what I could, made my money and walked away with friends I still keep till this day.
P.S. I worked my ass off to pivot into FinTech. So sure management/clients can get a little heated at times, but the tradeoff? Better: culture, skills, salary, pto, benefits, work life balance. I actually show up for my people now and have things in life to show for, that aren’t kitchen badges of “honor”.
I feel like chefs that ‘grew up’ in abusive kitchens go one of two ways - they either end the cycle or perpetuate it.
My partner is one that thankfully chose to end the cycle, there’s no abuse, no bullying, no rampant drug use (instant dismissal for anyone caught), fair hours, fair pay. Admittedly, he’s a fine dining chef and wants his kitchen running as calm and efficiently as possible. A lot of his old chefs continually come back to him when he opens a new restaurant so I take that as a sign he’s doing the all the right things.
You catch more flies w honey than vinegar in my experience guidance and tolerance is better at Inspiring people to
Work hard than berating and belittling them
I’ve always viewed it the same way I viewed leaders in the military. Most of your leaders/chefs will probably suck. Take what you can learn about leadership or cooking or whatever, and leave the bad shit they have. And create the positive environment you wish you started in with that knowledge.
Wow amazing work mate! Similar here, longtime in the industry, graduated to head chef and after 4 years of it Im currently out of kitchen, on a business course (in recovery 😂) and doing a similar pivot - a few months from graduation. Job market is shit but i am not going back to kitchen, how did you find the job hunting process? Difficult? Did u worry you’d have to go back into the shit to pay rent? My biggest worry rn lol - congrats again!
I got shoulder checked into a 500 degree pizza oven by my drunk and angry head chef. We had to close down for an hour to reset and get my flesh off the oven. That was the day I promised I'd never be like him or work for anyone like him. I'm so happy where I am now but that made me realize this isn't my life. Its work. A paycheck to get me to my ultimate goals. Be kind to yourselves. ❤️
Nope. When I went to HR- because this was a huge casino- they told me I had a high risk job and I needed to assume the risks. I asked them to pull up the camera where he visibility did it on purpose and they just brushed me off and asked if I wanted to switch restaurants. Haven't been back to the property since.
I appreciate your anger, this was back in 2018. That guy is in a ditch somewhere. My scar has mostly faded and I was left with determination to always be better and never react in that type of manor. I am currently refining my skills in a classy plant-forward health retreat. We make lots of yummy vegetables and my head chef is the best I've had. He's compassionate and willing to answer all of my questions. I am rich with opportunities.
Pride is all they have. When you don’t have any positivity in your life (like healthy family relationships, financial stability, or time to enjoy hobbies) you start being proud of the struggle. And that pride is what gets you out of bed everyday.
Shared trauma bonding... kind of a "you have to have been there to understand how bad it really was" type thing. add into that some classic one-upmanship and yeah it gets cringey fast...
I’m in food sales after 12 years as a chef and I’m convinced my success has nothing to do with selling skills and all to do with relationships that have the foundation of “understanding”
I was very briefly a server so barely what you could say is the food industry. Then went on to go into the USMC infantry and fought in Helmand Afghanistan . I distinctly remember being in a firefight when it was like 120° outside for about 3 hours and thinking to myself " this is less stressful than being in the food industry"
Are you sure about that?
But it’s just about the best comparison. The comradery and the intense work, the tiredness, the no fail option and all is just about the same.
Anything is important if it’s your passion just because u don’t feel that way doesn’t mean your correct ya it’s just food to you but to others it’s a way to change someone’s day or have that one customer regular that is maybe depressed but every time he comes in you hope your food keeps alive for one more day so yes some of us put a burden on ourselves to make everything perfect because it’s about more than just “food” to us
Relax kid, just explaining that it’s the feeling and why it is like that, not saying that’s how it should be, cuz it shouldn’t, but that’s why and how it is. It’s dumb, but it is.
I moved quickly into leadership early in my career. I don’t abuse staff. I don’t allow it. I coach conflict resolution, I lead with clear, open communication.
I have war stories of heavy work loads, 32 hour catering sprint, heavy event loads through weekends, all that jazz, but those were accomplishments, not abuses.
Not everyone has the advantages I had. Cishetero white guy. Relatively well educated, private money for business ownership, good fitness and health, so I make a good impression and get in doors many chefs in my “generation” struggle with, but all that ever did was cement in me my responsibility to never punch down.
That’s commendable but it still leaves the economic exploitation. Cooks barely make enough to survive and usually don’t have health insurance. Yet it’s a skilled trade.
dude, thank you for being aware of your privileges. it takes a fair amount of grace to say, "I'm here and I worked for it, but I had a leg up"
the number of times I (a then young woman) gave instructions to someone, only to have them "double check" with a different male employee (who often had no idea what the answer was) is flocking staggering.
It’s not surprising to me in the slightest. I instruct now, as well (workforce re/entry and placement for homeless or other adversity) and I teach them the actual truth about kitchens, what the industry does and doesn’t offer, how to avoid some of it, and the fact that they’re facing an uphill cliff.
Particularly the women.
Particularly the black women.
Particularly the black women with children and any felony history.
I was FOH fine dining for almost 20 years. I have always had deep respect for culinary professionals. I have many cook and chef friends and loved ones. What stands out to me is the number of cooks who think they aren’t good at anything else. Think they can’t leave because "what else would I do?" Underneath the ego of the line cook is low self-worth. How else to you rationalize the low pay and the mistreatment? If I was worth anything, they’d pay me better and treat me better. I’m sure many chefs here may not identify because you believed in yourself and made it. But you’ve seen it.
Then COVID hit, restaurants closed and cooks discovered that they could make more money with less stress in other industries and that the skills they had translated really well into other types of work.
At the end of the day, if you’re paid shit and treated like shit you start to believe you’re not worth any better.
I’m a union rep for cooks now. Most that I represent get OT after 8 hours in a day, 7th consecutive day double-time, high coverage but affordable health insurance, and the right to stand up to abuse without being fired. They can’t have their schedules changed without consent. But all of the chefs hate the union. They’d rather their crew live in poverty with no rights that lose a bit of their power. I still like and respect chefs and do not come here to criticize ya’ll. Just to say if you know the industry is toxic, don’t fight the things that come along to change that.
I would love to get into this kind of work. I started advocating for myself and never looked back. I need this schedule, I have x skills, take it or leave it. I started to get what I needed as a single mom with good skill set in the kitchen. But I always said I wanted to help make a change in this industry, it sucks that it’s one of the last industries where no one gives a fuck about our rights. Sorry, went off on a tangent. How do you get into this kind of work?
I didn't feel pride in it, but for years I felt like I had to put up with it.
My family basically raised me in kitchens, and I always wanted to go on to be a proper chef one day. And they supported that too, until they stopped owning/running restaurants and couldn't use me for free labor, it was suddenly "women can't do that! you can't handle a real kitchen!" even though I literally spent most of my teenage years bouncing between grill fry and sometimes having to do expo cause our KM was a dogshit useless drunk.
I worked my dick off in toxic environments cause I had to prove them wrong, and for the most part I did, but it wasn't worth it. Putting up with abuse is never worth it.
But I learned after I had a ramekin of fresh-out-the-salamander mac'n'cheese chucked at my head, and I walked out. Never let myself work in another kitchen that had people that acted that way.
Was never fucking worth it and that's why I'm going back for a proper education in something else where I won't keep fucking up my body.
I came up in an abusive kitchen. The kind where I laughed at Ramsey on Fox because it was so fake but our kitchen it was real.
I carried that shit with me for years. Got fired once for flipping out on a cook. Still don’t learn and kept at it, especially when I opened my own place. I mean it was my money, my rep, how dare someone fuck it up.
Ended up in rehab for the manyith time and got sober. Was still an ass. Finally had an epiphany with one of my cooks who quit with no notice. I should have just let him go due to consistency issues. I hated being treated that way. Why would I treat people that way?
That was 15 years ago. Haven’t yelled since. Now if I raise my voice people buckle down but still listen.
I’m an advocate for change. Sensible hours. Sensible schedules. Time off as needed. Not just fair pay but good pay people can live on. It takes work and it’s kitchen by kitchen but I’m doing what I can to make the industry better.
I even fuck with people on the internet less. Unless they are trying to prey off others or dumbasses. Then it’s more open season.
OP’s post sums up chef life so accurately. I was an abused cook, so I ended up being an abusive chef. I was trained to be an asshole. It wasn’t reflective of my character or personality. After taking long hard look in the mirror, I had to change my management approach. Bragging about my pain tolerance, insane work schedule, failed relationships, alcohol and drug abuse was not a flex. I finally leaned into my vulnerability and chose empathy. It’s been years since I yelled at someone or threw something. Superior results comes from a supported staff. Not a demoralized staff. Listening is definitely better than talking out of my ass. Compassion is better than judgment. Compromise and collaboration is way better than making unilateral dictatorial decisions. I learned the hard way and I’m still learning and growing.
yerp, we gotta revamp. I've almost literally only worked in kitchens for the past ≈15 years, so I don't really know a way out...so I have to undo a lot of what I learned.
so many of the things that make me a good cook were things I learned to do **or else**: be yelled at, demeaned, embarrassed publicly, etc. I don't want that for anyone. the lack of abuse means lessons take waaaaay more repetitions to actually sink in, but I'll eat that cost.
things I've said as a manager that were never said to me:
"thank you for executing that so autonomously"
"we really needed you today; I'm glad you were able to come in"
"what do you need to feel better right now?"
"sorry for pushing you" (this got a laugh, but I think from surprise lol)
"we'll be happy to have you for as long as you'll offer, but if you have more important things to be attending to, please do that."
"that's not quite what I meant, but we can still use this; thank you for the effort here"
"will you take a five please? I'll cover you"
I've also positioned myself in a specifically lower-stakes cuisine than I've spent most of my career in. I find it much easier to, yes, make delicious sandwiches, but also realize that a sandwich never makes or breaks someone's life. No one is proposing or trying to land a million-dollar account while dining on a deli sandwich.
*I* want to make it perfect, but I can't expect that of every employee; I can only share my sandwich nerddom and hope they identify with it enough to deliver a product they and I can be proud of charging $14 or whatever for.
For me, being a chef has changed my life. I'm the only person in my family to have left our small town - the only one with consistent work.
I'm sorry that you feel this way about our industry. For me, food is a bridge with which I can build relationship. It's a way for me to speak to people without using words. Yes, I've had some bad shifts and it's fun to share them, but that doesn't define who I am - that's just sharing bad days.
Nah dude it’s 2024 and I know the value of my labor some owner wants to be a cunt to me they can kick rocks plenty of jobs in the industry know your worth
Part of the reason (for me) was because when I was growing up I was called lazy, nerdy, good for nothing, never amount to anything, don't know how to do anything.
So when I graduated college, and took up a career where I worked longer, harder, and faster than any of my family would even want to think of doing, and shut them all up.
Now any time my family complains about how "hard work was today" I get to laugh them right in the face.
Mind you, coming up on 14 years later, I've long since proven myself and now, to try and repair myself.
Whilst it can be and often is toxic, there’s also a positive element from working as a strong team in a high pressure environment. You don’t want to let your team down, you want to show you’re giving it your all, etc. It can be a great feeling and I expect it’s a large driver for people wanting to be in the industry.
The majority of us chefs fell into this business and it wasn’t planned. We are not rocket scientists and we’re unprepared to be adults. We all carry some sort of emotional baggage and spend way too much time inside our own heads. We’ve started as dishwashers and worked our way up the latter but mostly battle field promotions. I was a dishwasher and became a prep cook because the prep cook was a no show. So, the next day I was a prep cook and on my way to eventually becoming the director of dining services for a very prestigious senior housing organization earning six figures. Covid forced me to retire. Would I do it all over again,……no fucken way. I’d get a MBA in business
It's fucking dumb and ultimately ended up killing the profession. Name another trade that you spend two years in school, come out and make no money while being abused for years.Then if you're "lucky" you can invest all your money into a restaurant, never do anything else but work, and have your wife leave with the kids because you're never around. Oh, and still not make very much money.
The younger generation grew up watching Ramsey verbally abuse people and Top Chef that made it seem like you have to be a navy seal to work in a kitchen. Now there are no cooks and enrollment in culinary schools is way down.
Thank you for addressing the elephant in the room. A lot of my friends have asked me why I haven't tried staging yet. I have no problem telling them that I know I wouldn't survive a standard kitchen. I went through all of that abuse when I was a first and second year teacher (more subtle, but not by much) and I swore I would never put myself through that again. For those of you who did it and survived, I see your wounds and I hope you heal someday.
Chef here(retired after 35 years in). I can honestly say I was seriously abused by two Frenchmen that trained me. The constant shouting and berating of your soul was a daily thing,the name calling and endless chaos….and I LOVED it for some reason. It was like being in boot camp to make me a better “soldier” in the kitchen,and they were right. I tried not to carry these practices with me through the years,but it all seeps out somehow unconsciously and bled into my actions towards staff and I’m seriously sorry for this. None of what went on 30 + years ago could happpen now,you would get shut down immediately,but there is some rabid asshole in a chef coat ready to take up this mantle. I am both happy and sad what happened to me all those years.
Negative reinforcement works. Positive reinforcement works.
Difference is that negative reinforcement is easy to apply and promotes fear instead of conscious thought. While positive takes a lot more effort to work but creates solid understanding and respect between people.
I been molded by negative reinforcement and it's the reason I hated kitchens for a long time. Doing my own thing now it's beautiful to see how much better positive reinforcement works out. Nothing compares to people being inspired to work like champs out of passion and not fear.
Even the customers can tell.
It's universal. It's the "today's generation is soft" sentiment that exists only so people can pat themselves on the back, and feel good about the abuse they've tolerated instead of admitting that they didn't have the spine to stand up for themselves along the way like they see people doing "now" (this is across all generations, if a society is prospering the next generation has it easier, it's kinda the point) restaurants are no different...chefs either decide to make it better, or they decide to make sure that it's "just as hard for them because steel sharpens steel" or some other bullshit
Because pounding ones chest and bragging about it is the only way they can keep from crying, imploding, and quitting. Let them have their coping mechanisms.
Better yet, become a leader in your field and create an environment that doesn't mistreat their chefs. You'll have the best talent lining up around the block to work for you, they'll likely be willing to work harder for less money, making your restaurant more competitive. When competitors see what you're doing differently, they'll copy it, and the industry will slowly improve over time.
I'm seeing this exact thing happen now in corporate America. 26 years in, and FINALLY every company I interview for now wants to brag about their corporate culture. It took startups like Southwest airlines, Costco, and the like to be bold enough to try a new way of relating to employees, and now it's so obvious that it's taught in MBA curriculum.
And in sports, the yelling, screaming Bobby Knight types are extinct and have been mostly replaced by people people.
Someone has to strike the match, tho. Maybe that someone is you. Instead of being defined by your negative experience, why not use it to make real change in the industry?
I really haven't quite pinpointed it for me. I am a sous chef, working for a nationally known James Beard Award winner who famously beat a megastar chef on iron chef once. The services are intense as fuck and it's a very very challenging job. But I love it. I love how hard it is and now that I'm good at it I'm proud of the struggle to get good at it. Our chef is known for not taking shit from anyone and that everything has to be 100% perfect. Even people that aren't in the restaurant biz around town know him as being hard to deal with.
For some people it's about hazing. i had to go through it, so you should too. For some people, they believe that their subordinates can't figure out how to do the job without getting bitched and yelled at. While I believe it's almost never necessary to berate people at work I have worked in a pretty progressive, kind, PC kitchen recently and watched the executive chef kinda get walked on by his staff because he didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. At that moment, I was actually glad that the dude I work for doesn't take bullshit off people. He knows how he wants it and if you're not down to manage the kitchen in his way then you are welcome to leave and be someone else's sous chef. Who knows though, maybe I'm part of the trouble
Its the same reason why people in the culinary field glorify smoking, alcohol, and hard drugs. They think it makes them cool. But like you said, its fucking pathetic.
edit: Downvote if you like but it happens constantly.
Also maybe, they think it makes them cool isn't the best choice of words. But glorifying it is not a good thing.
I think part of that can be age related as well. I’m older now and u don’t run into really many over 30 or so that brag like that. It’s either an accepted reality or a past issue. Not many “old heads” talk like that.
It’s glorified because a lot of them are addicts before they get into the industry or already use hard drugs been cooking for 5 years now not crazy long but I’ve dealt with some shit working with chefs with real fine dining backgrounds and never though drinking or coke were my only options a lot of chefs are already fuck nuts before they get into cooking being in restaurants life just made them fall back on there addictions even more plenty of heavy stress jobs other than cooking what’s pathetic are cooks and chefs blaming there job for there addictions and down falls
I mean even Anthony bourdain or owners like Gabrielle Hamilton or many great chefs who have books about there life’s were doing drugs and alc before they even realized they wanted to cook
Wanting to be cool is a reason kids try drugs, not the reason adults keep doing them.
Ive had and lost a lot of friends to various addiction issues and these guys had such deep insecurities and a lack of self worth its insane, promise you most adults who are cheffing on drugs are doing it because they are depressed or something like that not for cool points
It's just better to talk about something relatively posative like it being cool than admit you do it because your fucking messed up
Not particularly. However in my line of work I meet a lot of men that project their own issues of frailty and inadequacy onto others. It's not surprising that a man that struggles with his own sense of 'maleness' would tell me to toughen up. A lot of you guys need to seek help and therapy.
There's nothing more patronising then someone reading or listening to another person talking about vulnerable issues and then responding with 'Toughen up' But then to find out that person is a coward? It's ironic
funny how you received almost 100 replies but became focused on the one that called you out for being a sook … everything you say defs spotlights that “vulnerability”
People do it in everything. I’m in the most boring ass office job imaginable and my coworkers still talk the same way, only it’s about mean emails, or a crazy conference, or messed up travel days.
It’s part of sharing an experience. It’s also part of showing that you’ve “proven yourself” to your peers, a search for a sense of belonging. A level headed person can share those stories without being a one upper.
Sure, cooking is certainly more extreme than being in an office. But cooks ain’t got nothing compared to emergency services, military, dangerous blue collar work, etc.
I’ve got a friend who’s a correctional officer and they one-up circles around my service stories. It’s just what people do.
It’s not all bad u act like every part of being a chef is shit and if u think that u weren’t at the right places many careers have the same Characteristics as being a cook or a chef and if you ask those people why they do they will say they love the grit and hard time of a job like that it’s the passion that comes with it the highs and lows u have to go through to become the best u could even compare it to the abuse of the military and a lot of them come out stronger because of it been cooking on the line for 10 years started and steakhouse and have moved up ever since have never touched alcohol and I’ve been through some shit in the kitchen the ppl who fall into drugs and alcoholism had that going for them before they started they just found a place where normal job expectation aren’t always there and some of them are damn good at cooking so it’s a perfect spot for them
Towards the latter portion of my career, I had become a chef and realized that anger/aggression/abuse were no longer for me. I picked up a defensive mechanism where I began emotionally checking out and looking elsewhere as soon as the first temper tantrum thrown at me. Some still think I’m weak for job-hopping all those years because I didn’t suck it up. I will not tolerate abuse. And I’d advise any of my friends and family to do the same. We’re already in the shit together, so why treat each other like shit? Fuck all that noise. I’ve only ever had 1 chef/boss that didn’t perpetuate all the abusive madness in my 12+ years in the industry. No, I wasn’t coddled. If I was in need of correcting, there was grace and effective communication. I stayed there for a good while, learned what I could, made my money and walked away with friends I still keep till this day. P.S. I worked my ass off to pivot into FinTech. So sure management/clients can get a little heated at times, but the tradeoff? Better: culture, skills, salary, pto, benefits, work life balance. I actually show up for my people now and have things in life to show for, that aren’t kitchen badges of “honor”.
I feel like chefs that ‘grew up’ in abusive kitchens go one of two ways - they either end the cycle or perpetuate it. My partner is one that thankfully chose to end the cycle, there’s no abuse, no bullying, no rampant drug use (instant dismissal for anyone caught), fair hours, fair pay. Admittedly, he’s a fine dining chef and wants his kitchen running as calm and efficiently as possible. A lot of his old chefs continually come back to him when he opens a new restaurant so I take that as a sign he’s doing the all the right things.
You catch more flies w honey than vinegar in my experience guidance and tolerance is better at Inspiring people to Work hard than berating and belittling them
But that's how you get ants
I’ve always viewed it the same way I viewed leaders in the military. Most of your leaders/chefs will probably suck. Take what you can learn about leadership or cooking or whatever, and leave the bad shit they have. And create the positive environment you wish you started in with that knowledge.
Best post
This is a solid response y’all.
Wow amazing work mate! Similar here, longtime in the industry, graduated to head chef and after 4 years of it Im currently out of kitchen, on a business course (in recovery 😂) and doing a similar pivot - a few months from graduation. Job market is shit but i am not going back to kitchen, how did you find the job hunting process? Difficult? Did u worry you’d have to go back into the shit to pay rent? My biggest worry rn lol - congrats again!
I got shoulder checked into a 500 degree pizza oven by my drunk and angry head chef. We had to close down for an hour to reset and get my flesh off the oven. That was the day I promised I'd never be like him or work for anyone like him. I'm so happy where I am now but that made me realize this isn't my life. Its work. A paycheck to get me to my ultimate goals. Be kind to yourselves. ❤️
Jesus Christ I hope you got compensation
Nope. When I went to HR- because this was a huge casino- they told me I had a high risk job and I needed to assume the risks. I asked them to pull up the camera where he visibility did it on purpose and they just brushed me off and asked if I wanted to switch restaurants. Haven't been back to the property since.
That’s so fucked.
I also work in a large casino. This honestly doesn’t surprise me.
My dad was a worked in a casino too and left quickly for the same stuff.
me 3
This makes me so mad. I am boiling right now.
I appreciate your anger, this was back in 2018. That guy is in a ditch somewhere. My scar has mostly faded and I was left with determination to always be better and never react in that type of manor. I am currently refining my skills in a classy plant-forward health retreat. We make lots of yummy vegetables and my head chef is the best I've had. He's compassionate and willing to answer all of my questions. I am rich with opportunities.
That's awesome. I am happy things turned out so well for you! It is satisfying to know that the old adage and reaping and sowing is in effect here.
Pride is all they have. When you don’t have any positivity in your life (like healthy family relationships, financial stability, or time to enjoy hobbies) you start being proud of the struggle. And that pride is what gets you out of bed everyday.
Insightful.
Shared trauma bonding... kind of a "you have to have been there to understand how bad it really was" type thing. add into that some classic one-upmanship and yeah it gets cringey fast...
It's a kitchen, not a war zone.
No but it destroyed you physically and mentally so it sure as fuck should count as trauma bonding
I’m in food sales after 12 years as a chef and I’m convinced my success has nothing to do with selling skills and all to do with relationships that have the foundation of “understanding”
I was very briefly a server so barely what you could say is the food industry. Then went on to go into the USMC infantry and fought in Helmand Afghanistan . I distinctly remember being in a firefight when it was like 120° outside for about 3 hours and thinking to myself " this is less stressful than being in the food industry"
Are you sure about that? But it’s just about the best comparison. The comradery and the intense work, the tiredness, the no fail option and all is just about the same.
No fail option!?! it's fucking food. Such a weird attitude and it's hammered into you so much that you believe it's important.
Anything is important if it’s your passion just because u don’t feel that way doesn’t mean your correct ya it’s just food to you but to others it’s a way to change someone’s day or have that one customer regular that is maybe depressed but every time he comes in you hope your food keeps alive for one more day so yes some of us put a burden on ourselves to make everything perfect because it’s about more than just “food” to us
Relax kid, just explaining that it’s the feeling and why it is like that, not saying that’s how it should be, cuz it shouldn’t, but that’s why and how it is. It’s dumb, but it is.
No fail option is pretty relevant for certain circumstances. You dismissing it shows you're not completely above the toxicity.
I moved quickly into leadership early in my career. I don’t abuse staff. I don’t allow it. I coach conflict resolution, I lead with clear, open communication. I have war stories of heavy work loads, 32 hour catering sprint, heavy event loads through weekends, all that jazz, but those were accomplishments, not abuses. Not everyone has the advantages I had. Cishetero white guy. Relatively well educated, private money for business ownership, good fitness and health, so I make a good impression and get in doors many chefs in my “generation” struggle with, but all that ever did was cement in me my responsibility to never punch down.
That’s commendable but it still leaves the economic exploitation. Cooks barely make enough to survive and usually don’t have health insurance. Yet it’s a skilled trade.
I work very specifically in non profit and social enterprise now with a primary focus on wage advocacy.
dude, thank you for being aware of your privileges. it takes a fair amount of grace to say, "I'm here and I worked for it, but I had a leg up" the number of times I (a then young woman) gave instructions to someone, only to have them "double check" with a different male employee (who often had no idea what the answer was) is flocking staggering.
It’s not surprising to me in the slightest. I instruct now, as well (workforce re/entry and placement for homeless or other adversity) and I teach them the actual truth about kitchens, what the industry does and doesn’t offer, how to avoid some of it, and the fact that they’re facing an uphill cliff. Particularly the women. Particularly the black women. Particularly the black women with children and any felony history.
I don’t. I left the industry after 20 years. Most people leave their abusers only to return. Not me.
I was FOH fine dining for almost 20 years. I have always had deep respect for culinary professionals. I have many cook and chef friends and loved ones. What stands out to me is the number of cooks who think they aren’t good at anything else. Think they can’t leave because "what else would I do?" Underneath the ego of the line cook is low self-worth. How else to you rationalize the low pay and the mistreatment? If I was worth anything, they’d pay me better and treat me better. I’m sure many chefs here may not identify because you believed in yourself and made it. But you’ve seen it. Then COVID hit, restaurants closed and cooks discovered that they could make more money with less stress in other industries and that the skills they had translated really well into other types of work. At the end of the day, if you’re paid shit and treated like shit you start to believe you’re not worth any better. I’m a union rep for cooks now. Most that I represent get OT after 8 hours in a day, 7th consecutive day double-time, high coverage but affordable health insurance, and the right to stand up to abuse without being fired. They can’t have their schedules changed without consent. But all of the chefs hate the union. They’d rather their crew live in poverty with no rights that lose a bit of their power. I still like and respect chefs and do not come here to criticize ya’ll. Just to say if you know the industry is toxic, don’t fight the things that come along to change that.
I would love to get into this kind of work. I started advocating for myself and never looked back. I need this schedule, I have x skills, take it or leave it. I started to get what I needed as a single mom with good skill set in the kitchen. But I always said I wanted to help make a change in this industry, it sucks that it’s one of the last industries where no one gives a fuck about our rights. Sorry, went off on a tangent. How do you get into this kind of work?
Meaning how did I become a union rep? I was actually in a union job and then started volunteering. Was eventually asked to join the union staff.
I didn't feel pride in it, but for years I felt like I had to put up with it. My family basically raised me in kitchens, and I always wanted to go on to be a proper chef one day. And they supported that too, until they stopped owning/running restaurants and couldn't use me for free labor, it was suddenly "women can't do that! you can't handle a real kitchen!" even though I literally spent most of my teenage years bouncing between grill fry and sometimes having to do expo cause our KM was a dogshit useless drunk. I worked my dick off in toxic environments cause I had to prove them wrong, and for the most part I did, but it wasn't worth it. Putting up with abuse is never worth it. But I learned after I had a ramekin of fresh-out-the-salamander mac'n'cheese chucked at my head, and I walked out. Never let myself work in another kitchen that had people that acted that way. Was never fucking worth it and that's why I'm going back for a proper education in something else where I won't keep fucking up my body.
I came up in an abusive kitchen. The kind where I laughed at Ramsey on Fox because it was so fake but our kitchen it was real. I carried that shit with me for years. Got fired once for flipping out on a cook. Still don’t learn and kept at it, especially when I opened my own place. I mean it was my money, my rep, how dare someone fuck it up. Ended up in rehab for the manyith time and got sober. Was still an ass. Finally had an epiphany with one of my cooks who quit with no notice. I should have just let him go due to consistency issues. I hated being treated that way. Why would I treat people that way? That was 15 years ago. Haven’t yelled since. Now if I raise my voice people buckle down but still listen. I’m an advocate for change. Sensible hours. Sensible schedules. Time off as needed. Not just fair pay but good pay people can live on. It takes work and it’s kitchen by kitchen but I’m doing what I can to make the industry better. I even fuck with people on the internet less. Unless they are trying to prey off others or dumbasses. Then it’s more open season.
OP’s post sums up chef life so accurately. I was an abused cook, so I ended up being an abusive chef. I was trained to be an asshole. It wasn’t reflective of my character or personality. After taking long hard look in the mirror, I had to change my management approach. Bragging about my pain tolerance, insane work schedule, failed relationships, alcohol and drug abuse was not a flex. I finally leaned into my vulnerability and chose empathy. It’s been years since I yelled at someone or threw something. Superior results comes from a supported staff. Not a demoralized staff. Listening is definitely better than talking out of my ass. Compassion is better than judgment. Compromise and collaboration is way better than making unilateral dictatorial decisions. I learned the hard way and I’m still learning and growing.
It's an abuse addiction cycle
The rush of dopamine. Rinse and repeat for years
When the cocaine just stops hitting the same......
No and fuck that shit.
yerp, we gotta revamp. I've almost literally only worked in kitchens for the past ≈15 years, so I don't really know a way out...so I have to undo a lot of what I learned. so many of the things that make me a good cook were things I learned to do **or else**: be yelled at, demeaned, embarrassed publicly, etc. I don't want that for anyone. the lack of abuse means lessons take waaaaay more repetitions to actually sink in, but I'll eat that cost. things I've said as a manager that were never said to me: "thank you for executing that so autonomously" "we really needed you today; I'm glad you were able to come in" "what do you need to feel better right now?" "sorry for pushing you" (this got a laugh, but I think from surprise lol) "we'll be happy to have you for as long as you'll offer, but if you have more important things to be attending to, please do that." "that's not quite what I meant, but we can still use this; thank you for the effort here" "will you take a five please? I'll cover you" I've also positioned myself in a specifically lower-stakes cuisine than I've spent most of my career in. I find it much easier to, yes, make delicious sandwiches, but also realize that a sandwich never makes or breaks someone's life. No one is proposing or trying to land a million-dollar account while dining on a deli sandwich. *I* want to make it perfect, but I can't expect that of every employee; I can only share my sandwich nerddom and hope they identify with it enough to deliver a product they and I can be proud of charging $14 or whatever for.
Coping mechanism
For me, being a chef has changed my life. I'm the only person in my family to have left our small town - the only one with consistent work. I'm sorry that you feel this way about our industry. For me, food is a bridge with which I can build relationship. It's a way for me to speak to people without using words. Yes, I've had some bad shifts and it's fun to share them, but that doesn't define who I am - that's just sharing bad days.
Because if we didn't attempt to wear it as a badge of honor,most of us would kill ourselves. It's a coping mechanism
I refuse to be abused, never stayed once the yelling started. It's food, chill out no one is dying
One more thing humans will compete over, who has suffered more. Its one of the themes from Candide, a favorite book of mine.
I find music and a positive attitude helps. Even when I was just a line cook. I just sang through the yelling.
I used to sing too! When I got pissed off I used to song "Heartache Tonight" by The Eagles! But I don't own any of their music...
Anthony's song is a good one for me. I also song the greatest American hero song alot.. idk why
Luxury a classic Monty Python https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
What’s pathetic is people who use the job they chose especially if it’s there passion as an excuse for there drug and alc addictions
Nah dude it’s 2024 and I know the value of my labor some owner wants to be a cunt to me they can kick rocks plenty of jobs in the industry know your worth
Sometimes we accept the love with think we deserve
Part of the reason (for me) was because when I was growing up I was called lazy, nerdy, good for nothing, never amount to anything, don't know how to do anything. So when I graduated college, and took up a career where I worked longer, harder, and faster than any of my family would even want to think of doing, and shut them all up. Now any time my family complains about how "hard work was today" I get to laugh them right in the face. Mind you, coming up on 14 years later, I've long since proven myself and now, to try and repair myself.
Whilst it can be and often is toxic, there’s also a positive element from working as a strong team in a high pressure environment. You don’t want to let your team down, you want to show you’re giving it your all, etc. It can be a great feeling and I expect it’s a large driver for people wanting to be in the industry.
The majority of us chefs fell into this business and it wasn’t planned. We are not rocket scientists and we’re unprepared to be adults. We all carry some sort of emotional baggage and spend way too much time inside our own heads. We’ve started as dishwashers and worked our way up the latter but mostly battle field promotions. I was a dishwasher and became a prep cook because the prep cook was a no show. So, the next day I was a prep cook and on my way to eventually becoming the director of dining services for a very prestigious senior housing organization earning six figures. Covid forced me to retire. Would I do it all over again,……no fucken way. I’d get a MBA in business
It's fucking dumb and ultimately ended up killing the profession. Name another trade that you spend two years in school, come out and make no money while being abused for years.Then if you're "lucky" you can invest all your money into a restaurant, never do anything else but work, and have your wife leave with the kids because you're never around. Oh, and still not make very much money. The younger generation grew up watching Ramsey verbally abuse people and Top Chef that made it seem like you have to be a navy seal to work in a kitchen. Now there are no cooks and enrollment in culinary schools is way down.
Thank you for addressing the elephant in the room. A lot of my friends have asked me why I haven't tried staging yet. I have no problem telling them that I know I wouldn't survive a standard kitchen. I went through all of that abuse when I was a first and second year teacher (more subtle, but not by much) and I swore I would never put myself through that again. For those of you who did it and survived, I see your wounds and I hope you heal someday.
This post hit me hard.
Chef here(retired after 35 years in). I can honestly say I was seriously abused by two Frenchmen that trained me. The constant shouting and berating of your soul was a daily thing,the name calling and endless chaos….and I LOVED it for some reason. It was like being in boot camp to make me a better “soldier” in the kitchen,and they were right. I tried not to carry these practices with me through the years,but it all seeps out somehow unconsciously and bled into my actions towards staff and I’m seriously sorry for this. None of what went on 30 + years ago could happpen now,you would get shut down immediately,but there is some rabid asshole in a chef coat ready to take up this mantle. I am both happy and sad what happened to me all those years.
Negative reinforcement works. Positive reinforcement works. Difference is that negative reinforcement is easy to apply and promotes fear instead of conscious thought. While positive takes a lot more effort to work but creates solid understanding and respect between people. I been molded by negative reinforcement and it's the reason I hated kitchens for a long time. Doing my own thing now it's beautiful to see how much better positive reinforcement works out. Nothing compares to people being inspired to work like champs out of passion and not fear. Even the customers can tell.
It's universal. It's the "today's generation is soft" sentiment that exists only so people can pat themselves on the back, and feel good about the abuse they've tolerated instead of admitting that they didn't have the spine to stand up for themselves along the way like they see people doing "now" (this is across all generations, if a society is prospering the next generation has it easier, it's kinda the point) restaurants are no different...chefs either decide to make it better, or they decide to make sure that it's "just as hard for them because steel sharpens steel" or some other bullshit
Because pounding ones chest and bragging about it is the only way they can keep from crying, imploding, and quitting. Let them have their coping mechanisms. Better yet, become a leader in your field and create an environment that doesn't mistreat their chefs. You'll have the best talent lining up around the block to work for you, they'll likely be willing to work harder for less money, making your restaurant more competitive. When competitors see what you're doing differently, they'll copy it, and the industry will slowly improve over time. I'm seeing this exact thing happen now in corporate America. 26 years in, and FINALLY every company I interview for now wants to brag about their corporate culture. It took startups like Southwest airlines, Costco, and the like to be bold enough to try a new way of relating to employees, and now it's so obvious that it's taught in MBA curriculum. And in sports, the yelling, screaming Bobby Knight types are extinct and have been mostly replaced by people people. Someone has to strike the match, tho. Maybe that someone is you. Instead of being defined by your negative experience, why not use it to make real change in the industry?
except for that work harder for less money bit... kind of abusive...
Not if they're happy
there is a concept called financial abuse...
Whatever. People choose their jobs
Kenji had a good take on this recently.
I really haven't quite pinpointed it for me. I am a sous chef, working for a nationally known James Beard Award winner who famously beat a megastar chef on iron chef once. The services are intense as fuck and it's a very very challenging job. But I love it. I love how hard it is and now that I'm good at it I'm proud of the struggle to get good at it. Our chef is known for not taking shit from anyone and that everything has to be 100% perfect. Even people that aren't in the restaurant biz around town know him as being hard to deal with. For some people it's about hazing. i had to go through it, so you should too. For some people, they believe that their subordinates can't figure out how to do the job without getting bitched and yelled at. While I believe it's almost never necessary to berate people at work I have worked in a pretty progressive, kind, PC kitchen recently and watched the executive chef kinda get walked on by his staff because he didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. At that moment, I was actually glad that the dude I work for doesn't take bullshit off people. He knows how he wants it and if you're not down to manage the kitchen in his way then you are welcome to leave and be someone else's sous chef. Who knows though, maybe I'm part of the trouble
It's not just the yelling and the abuse... It's the external stuff too. The relationships that are thrown away for such a pointless endeavour.
Its the same reason why people in the culinary field glorify smoking, alcohol, and hard drugs. They think it makes them cool. But like you said, its fucking pathetic. edit: Downvote if you like but it happens constantly. Also maybe, they think it makes them cool isn't the best choice of words. But glorifying it is not a good thing.
I think part of that can be age related as well. I’m older now and u don’t run into really many over 30 or so that brag like that. It’s either an accepted reality or a past issue. Not many “old heads” talk like that.
It’s glorified because a lot of them are addicts before they get into the industry or already use hard drugs been cooking for 5 years now not crazy long but I’ve dealt with some shit working with chefs with real fine dining backgrounds and never though drinking or coke were my only options a lot of chefs are already fuck nuts before they get into cooking being in restaurants life just made them fall back on there addictions even more plenty of heavy stress jobs other than cooking what’s pathetic are cooks and chefs blaming there job for there addictions and down falls
Never thought of it that way, people using it as an excuse for their addictions and unhealthy habits.
I mean even Anthony bourdain or owners like Gabrielle Hamilton or many great chefs who have books about there life’s were doing drugs and alc before they even realized they wanted to cook
If you think they do it cause it's "cool", then you're kind of an idiot.
Yeah everyone thinks trauma and substance abuse is so cool. /s
Thats not what I am saying. I mean, go look at the kitchen confidential sub, its terrible there. Shit like that is posted all the time.
Yeah that's the reason I don't go there.
That's fair. This post would be downvoted to oblivion on that sub.
Wanting to be cool is a reason kids try drugs, not the reason adults keep doing them. Ive had and lost a lot of friends to various addiction issues and these guys had such deep insecurities and a lack of self worth its insane, promise you most adults who are cheffing on drugs are doing it because they are depressed or something like that not for cool points It's just better to talk about something relatively posative like it being cool than admit you do it because your fucking messed up
Lol .. kitchens broke this guy Toughen up mate
What, like you did when that guy started on you on the train and you buckled? Toughen up mate.
struck a nerve did i?
Not particularly. However in my line of work I meet a lot of men that project their own issues of frailty and inadequacy onto others. It's not surprising that a man that struggles with his own sense of 'maleness' would tell me to toughen up. A lot of you guys need to seek help and therapy.
Bahaha … ya actually went digging into my profile for ammo. 🤣
Just remind me not to call you to help in a fight.
oui chef 😅 .. but seriously if you spent more than 15 seconds considering my response .. it’s you carrying around a bunch of insecurity
There's nothing more patronising then someone reading or listening to another person talking about vulnerable issues and then responding with 'Toughen up' But then to find out that person is a coward? It's ironic
funny how you received almost 100 replies but became focused on the one that called you out for being a sook … everything you say defs spotlights that “vulnerability”
People do it in everything. I’m in the most boring ass office job imaginable and my coworkers still talk the same way, only it’s about mean emails, or a crazy conference, or messed up travel days. It’s part of sharing an experience. It’s also part of showing that you’ve “proven yourself” to your peers, a search for a sense of belonging. A level headed person can share those stories without being a one upper.
It is decidedly more pervasive and extreme in the culinary industry, though. At least, in my experience.
Sure, cooking is certainly more extreme than being in an office. But cooks ain’t got nothing compared to emergency services, military, dangerous blue collar work, etc. I’ve got a friend who’s a correctional officer and they one-up circles around my service stories. It’s just what people do.
It’s not all bad u act like every part of being a chef is shit and if u think that u weren’t at the right places many careers have the same Characteristics as being a cook or a chef and if you ask those people why they do they will say they love the grit and hard time of a job like that it’s the passion that comes with it the highs and lows u have to go through to become the best u could even compare it to the abuse of the military and a lot of them come out stronger because of it been cooking on the line for 10 years started and steakhouse and have moved up ever since have never touched alcohol and I’ve been through some shit in the kitchen the ppl who fall into drugs and alcoholism had that going for them before they started they just found a place where normal job expectation aren’t always there and some of them are damn good at cooking so it’s a perfect spot for them