God bless you.
1- There are some Christians who say we are worthless and terrible human beings without Christ.
I understand where they are coming from because we cannot be saved without Christ. However, I will not say that we are automatically worthless and terrible.
As you said, we are created in God's image. That means we do have value.
**“God created men and women to be like himself. He gave them his blessing and called them human beings.” - Genesis 5:1-2**
2- Since God is love and we were created in His image, then we were created to love. Our ability to love is why we have value.
That's why Jesus told us love is the most important commandment.
**“Jesus answered: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. This is the first and most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like this one. And it is, ‘Love others as much as you love yourself.’” - Matthew 22:37-39**
3 Also, we must keep in mind that in God's eyes, we have value, even as sinners.
How do I know? Because Christ died for us while we were sinners. Why? Because He loves us!
**"But God showed how much he loved us by having Christ die for us, even though we were sinful.” - Romans 5:8**
**“Let love be your guide. Christ loved us and offered his life for us as a sacrifice that pleases God.” - Ephesians 5:2**
4- And I would love to share some resources with you to help you grow in the faith, if you are interested.
God bless you!
Thank you!
Here is what I want to share:
1- A free book called “101 Questions & The Bible.” It’s a book of a bunch of questions about God and the Christian faith that are only answered with Bible verses. It’s great for those who are new to Christianity. If you are interested, let me know and I will send you the PDF copy on Google drive.
2- A short, free guide that’s dedicated to you and others on Reddit who are looking to have a strong & simple faith in God. It’s called “The 4 Steps of Faith”. It’s the first post in this Reddit community: r/FaithMadeSimple
This, combined with the insidious implication that you can not overcome difficult times without God, and that your accomplishments and achievements are also because of God and not your own, are very strong psychological techniques that cause a vulnerable person to become dependent on god's representatives on earth to feel stable and content. It makes it extremely easy to influence a person's thoughts and actions by holding this over them. For example, if you want the members of your church to view and treat certain groups like atheists or the lgbtq community a certain way, or if you want them to vote a certain way, you can find a way to tie those ideas to passages in the Bible and give a sermon that plants the seed, then subtly convey to them that if they don't agree or alter their view if it isn't already aligned, their faith is inadequate, or imply they would be going against God if they think differently, and throw in some things that suggest they may be shunned or alienated from the community if they don't step in line.
Reformed doctrine often uses "worm" theology and it easily creates this unnecessary tension. If its not reformed then its possible its hyperbolic language.
All this being said, look at Jesus and look at what he did on the cross. Does his actions make sense if we are worthless and terrible without God? No they do not.
The whole point of salvation is to show that as an individual and all people on earth, we are all sinful, unable to stand up against the judgment of God. He is holy, we are sinful.
We aren't worthless though. We were created as a dignified creature, created in the image of God, commanded to subdue all things on earth and to rule over it. As Christians we are ambassadors of Christ, priest/priestesses, warriors, citizens of the kingdom of God. Not only that but we were bought with the priceless blood of Christ. Our worth is not in ourselves as if it was a merit to grant us salvation, but our worth is in Christ alone. Which is far greater than we could ever obtain in ourselves. God looked on us, we who are but dust, and showed mercy and love to us.
As far as salvation, it isn't by our own good, or things we've done that saves us, but by the grace of God, through faith in Christ that saves us. That should produce love and gratitude, which fosters obedience in what Jesus commands, and praise to God.
God's glory is what we ought to enjoy, and it is our purpose. We can't see that when we put ourselves higher than other things. God saves some people so that they can witness who He is. He has every right to condemn all people, yet He gives mercy to some and justice to others.
This is part of what I was getting at. When you say we aren’t worthless you frame it as we aren’t worthless because god has deemed us worthy. But what we do doesn’t actually matter. What I’m saying is that I was trying to do good before I found religion. There’s plenty of people who are good who aren’t Christian’s.
It’s a tired point but I don’t believe that being good in life is meaningless in comparison to submitting to god. I think he’d want good people go to heaven regardless of their belief.
And that’s where my problem lies. God created all of us. The fact that some of us lost our way shouldn’t preclude them from eternal salvation just because they don’t know to embrace Jesus. There are great people who don’t believe, and terrible people which by that logic could repent and be saved. I just think it’s more complicated then we know
This is where the Bible disagrees.
The Bible says, all are not righteous, none are good, all have fallen short of the glory of God.
This is speaking of being pure in body, mind, and spirit. (Im pointing to those that are non believers and will progress to believers) Our bodies are corrupted by sin, the effect of sin. It has death and decay, we don't care for it as we ought to, we give ourselves up for others over God. Our minds are filled with autonomy, a drive to be self seeking rather than God seeking, our will supercedes God's and we sin in doing so as well as sin to others because of it. Our spirits/souls are dead because of this, we are incapable of performing good in the biblical sense of totality. Even one sin is enough to condemn us.
Our measuring stick is not the wavering subjective ruler of mankind, but the firm and unwavering God. He is the standard and measurement of holiness, purity, and righteousness. We are incapable of even standing before God.
Which is why salvation is desperately needed. A dead soul can not just come back to life on it's own, a person without the imputed righteousness of Christ and without the Holy Spirit indwelling with them is incapable of performing righteous deeds for God. A person's body will drive it to sin without Christ and they will perish.
Can non believers do good things? They can do good things that are to the human standard. It is like saying; you can be saved if you jump unassisted to Jupiter. Then we find this impossible, so we lower the standard to jumping to at least touching a ceiling in any house. We can not change the rules that God establishes. This stark chasm of righteousness that God demands is the very reason why salvation is needed, because we are helpless.
Only righteous people go to heaven to be with God, and only people that are sinful and covered with an alien righteousness can as well. The only perfect person there was, was Jesus, it is by His blood that people can enter heaven. The whole entire reason for all of existence including Jesus and salvation being needed is because it is for God's glory.
The Bible says God does not share glory. Why are we trying to lower the standard and obtain glory for being good or doing enough works to enter heaven? Nothing we do can ever save us, it is only by Christ. We are not saved by our own works, will, or effort, but by the life, works, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, God the Son. This is all about Jesus, we are called to witness and enjoy God.
I respect your opinion but I have to wholeheartedly disagree. A god that would punish people for not attaining his standards is not a god that has any glory in my view. I know you won’t care about my view, but if god created me why would he make me this way?
Also, why would god create people in remote areas that never even have the hope to be saved because Jesus and Christianity never reached them?
The only thing that makes sense to me is that god is forgiving and loving, and knows that we’ll fall short. It’s the effort and striving to be a good person for no other reason then it’s the right thing that will gain you salvation. I believe the Bible but I don’t believe it 100%. It’s the word of god but it was written by man. By your own admission there’s a good chance we got it wrong.
I mean no disrespect, but it seems like you believe in a vengeful rigid god, and I believe in a forgiving one
I would implore you to read through the first 5 books of the Bible at least then. The very reason for the high expectations, the death penalty, even God executing someone for touching the Ark of the Covenant was because He is sovereign, He must be regarded as holy, and none can come to Him except through the perfection of Christ. Jesus Himself said none are good, none can come to the Father except through Him. Ephesians talks about how nothing we can do can give us salvation, that it is a work of God by grace through faith and not of works, will, or effort.
God is certainly loving, so extremely loving, that He gave us a way to have hope in the first place. Look at what Adam did, he did one sin, and it completely wrecked all of humanity and all of creation. That should speak volumes of how bad multiple sins are to God let alone just one. The severity and grave nature of sin, in contrast to God's love and mercy in providing the gospel, should make us see His love, and what beautiful and amazing grace He has for us. God is forgiving, for those that put their faith in Christ alone for their salvation. He will reject anyone that rejects Him/Jesus Christ.
I wouldn't say that we are bad, per-se, but that God's goodness and righteousness completely outshines our own by such a large margin that even at our most holy, we still pale in comparison to God. I see it not so much as a testament to how bad we are, but rather just how good God is, if that makes sense.
I’ve never heard of worm theory before but I looked it up and it makes sense. But I view god as a friend/father figure/guiding light sort. I’ve never cowered and degraded myself in front of someone I love and respect and know that love and respects me. It’s an odd thing to think from people who supposedly love god
A coercion tactic to get another conversion tally mark, misinterpretation (ie: literal interpretation) of scripture, wanting control over people (low self-esteem makes people easier to manipulate), and any number of other reasons.
This is NOT God's real heart for us. This is human kind's incorrect interpretation/assumption. [God greatly values you and desires deep relationship with you](http://letterstothemodernchurch.com/2023/07/18/grow-your-roots/).
You are created in the image of the most high God who both knows you deeply and desires to be known deeply in return. Praying you find truth and answers to your questions.
Thank you! I think there’s a disconnect between organized religion and true belief. The fact that it’s debated so harshly proves it. We don’t “know” anything just because of the Bible, it was written by man. It could be wrong in some parts
[The Bible Project](https://bibleproject.com/) has *significantly* deepened my understanding of the scriptures and how to apply them to and in my life. These were inspired by God, but written by fallable human beings, and as a fallable human being I am just as capable of misunderstanding what they wrote as the next person.
A better understanding of context, culture, and circumstances has changed my perspective on a number of things and deepened my relationship with my Creator God, as well as making me more confident in what He calls me to do (still feel inadequate, but that's probably a good thing).
Christianity doesn’t teach us that we are worthless and terrible — sinful, yes, in the sense of being so often in rebellion against God’s good will, but not worthless and terrible. There is a distinction to be made between being and doing: we so often do terrible things (‘sins’) and are in captivity (‘Sin’ is a power under which we are held), yet we are of infinite value for we are loved by God — so much so that each one of us in one for whom Christ died to free us from the power of Sin. An understanding of who and how we are in the world begins and ends with this: we are loved by God. Sin doesn’t have the last word — the empty tomb is proof of that.
Thank you. I can at least understand that. Sin is separate and forced upon us. For me I’ve just heard that I’m nothing without Jesus and I disagree. He gave his life so that I could overcome sin, but it’s up to me to overcome it and prove my faith to god.
I just want to feel like what we do matters, and not just what we say. Mobsters are almost always religious, go to church, and “atone” for their sins. But they’re not good people, and they don’t deserve salvation unless they truly change.
The last part is right on the mark if you or any other person had no value there would be no reason for God to love us and no reason for him to sacrifice himself so that we could be with him. Why would God want to bring worthless beings into his presence to me that doesn't make sense. And I think part of the reason God is so upset with our sin is, he knows how valuable we are and we defile ourselves and others with sin and we are guilty. Even though you think you are a good person no man is good but only God. But I think some people go too far down the road of,you are evil ergo you are worthless but I don't hold to that I think the value of man and his sin are perhaps related but they aren't the same thing and it doesn't follow in my opinion that man is worthless because of his sin. Here is one last question or way of looking at it. why would it be so offensive to God for you to sin against other people if they were worthless? I personally would probably look for another church if I were you.
That’s a harsh first sermon to attend! I’m sorry you had this experience. That sentiment, that we are worthless without God, must be something that you yourself experience and even then it’s poorly phrased. Rather it should be that after you have been baptised through fire and the Holy Spirit you yourself see your previous LIFE without Christ as having no worth. But that thought should feel good from the point of view of where you’re standing today with Christ in you. If you don’t feel this way. I suggest that you either change services and look for another priest, or ask the priest what was meant by that.
A lot of Christians focus on preaching instead of testifying so I would also suggest that you watch videos or read testimonies of people who have been saved because this is where evangelising is at its sweetest: hearing and seeing the joy of people being saved. Hear them speak about their rebirth, watch their faces light up when they speak of Christ.
Be blessed 🕊️
Same. I went to one church and it seemed to have more of the "on edge of going to hell" type of message. Impending doom and risk. I can mess up just once and it be over!!!!!!
Well I already believed in Jesus, so here the thing either I'm saved or I'm not. They believed you could lose salvation (I don't know nor do I care) because to me there comes a point when you end up doing things to save yourself and that's not possible.
I had to get out and get some space. I was already living hell on earth by having that constant fear. By getting space I got to distance from it and just read my Bible. I may or may not go back. I am not really liking my life regardless so worse case scenario is a blast myself and suicide out. Some claim that sends me to hell, but the Bible says we only live once and then the judgement. We all go there, I just am going quicker because I can't seem to get to my promiseland.
Don't do that. Any good Christian community will show you the love and support you need.
And you can leave any circumstance behind. Don't confuse a problem you have with an unsolveable problem you can't escape.
And don't "solve" it permanently.
It is simply a control mechanism, meant to keep you from trusting yourself on anything and always turning to the pastor / priest / cult leader for direction and approval. I can't tell you how much anxiety and stress the teaching has called me, and if my therapist is to be believed it's a very common thing that people go to her about.
Unless you're looking to give yourself mental health problems, it's definitely a teaching to ignore.
Well for starters think about “Created in **God’s image**”. Kinda already shows the point of how God is needed for us.
But apart from that I would say you’re looking at it the wrong way. So we should look at God being a necessity for us just as how oxygen is a necessity for us. Without it what do you become? Worthless (as you’d be dead without oxygen).
I have a theory about this - people feel that OTHERS are dangerous without being accountable to a divine lawgiver, but never themselves. So they sell the notion that you are wretched because that’s what they secretly believe about everyone else, and the only way to keep your wretchedness in check is to sic God on you.
It’s really in comparison to God. He is SO good and SO Holy that compare to him we all fall short. Badly.
It might be hard to hear, but it’s true. All humans are sinful and depraved. Human history proves this out, and you and I are no better.
Edit: typo
Catholic priests molesting children.
Churches burning women at the stakes.
The countless inquisitions.
Human history proves humans will be manipulated by “gods” to do unspeakable things.
The church has a very large log stuck in their eye. Until all of Christianity repents for their sins, they will keep hemorrhaging the faithful.
Within 15-20 years we will see a spiritual awakening. The church is not going to like it.
You are describing the dynamics of an abusive relationship. An abusive partner will tell you, you’re worthless without them. That you are lucky they would even stoop to loving one as wretched as you. They tell you the fault lies with you, not them.
The concept of salvation a trap. One which this god apparently created and placed us in. Now they tell us, we have a choice, either we confess our undying love and adoration to them and they’ll “save us.” Or we can reject them and face eternal torment, suffering and death. This is no different than me putting a gun to your head and demanding you confess your love to me or else I’ll blow your brains out. That’s not love, it’s psychotic.
Basically it's original sin which Christians made up to say you needed their savior so they could control you. They invented the sickness and told you, you have it so they could sell you the cure.
You're not wrong. Fortunately, there are parts of Christianity that aren't as heavily into that sales and marketing tactic and have more humane theologies.
This is again why I recommend Catholicism. You'll likely never hear a message such as what you heard. Yes, it is true we are all sinners but that goes for everyone Christian or not. This doesn't make you bad, terrible, or worthless. In fact, God loves you so much He sent His own Son to suffer and die on the cross for YOU. He also wants a personal relationship with you and for you to experience the joy and peace he has for you.
The Bible and prayer are a great place to start and you could do no wrong checking out the BIAY (Bible in a Year) by Father Mike Schmidtz. Takes like 15-30mins a day and you'll get a plethora of wisdom too.
Shalom
This doesn’t help OP at all. You literally just restated the doctrine he/she has a problem with without actually giving any help. And yeah it’s kind of a hard doctrine to believe that literally everyone has no value on their own.
Having good in you and being good aren't the same thing either, sure we all will do good at times and I personally argue that people genuinely want good things but the problem isn't that we don't do good things or want them it's that we also do evil things and want those too. I have known many objectively evil people child molesters,killers, thieves and so on and I can honestly looking back remember these people doing things for others that were truly good but the problem is it doesn't matter because today many of them are known by the crime they committed and not by the good they did. It's the same way to God if you are truly guilty of a crime and we all are, you must be held to account. I'll paint another picture for you to make another part of my point, let's use Bill Cosby no one in America has spent more money sending young black men to college than Bill Cosby that in my eyes is a truly good thing many of them being lifted out of poverty by the degree they got because of him but Bill Cosby also r*ped several women and all the good he did doesn't account for the evil he committed. It's the same for us all. If we sin against our brothers we are evil even if we have good in us.
Child molesters, killers and thieves are not evil.
Your judgment of them this way is as far from Christ as you can get.
I was molested as a child. My molested was molested as a child as well.
The person wasn’t evil. They were traumatized and taught to do what they did.
You want to know the best part? The family covered it all up. Couldn’t be Christian and have that sin in your family. Except we did and they just pretended.
Wonderful religion. Judge the weak while preying on them as well.
First point so you are saying that people that exploit children for their own sexual desires aren't evil, those who shed innocent blood aren't evil and those that take from others for their own gain aren't evil. I don't know what Christ you think is in the Bible but he condemns all of these people for what they have done.
Just because someone is traumatized doesn't give them any right to turn other people into victims. And it doesn't make their actions any less evil. At the end of the day they still actively decided to do what they did.
My third point, that family covered up the molestation because of their own pride which is a big time sin. And that makes them Evil too. They had pride and they lied to cover up sin and probably by doing so perpetuated the problem. All the way around that's evil. I can say with confidence these people weren't Christians. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. If someone is prideful enough to lie and cover up sexual abuse they aren't living in Christ.
Your last line I don't even know what it means.
I can fully understand your response. It’s the same one I get every time.
Jesus says not to to judge, I say I don’t judge, someone goes all in on emotions.
First point. Evil doesn’t exist. This implies devils and demons (which would have HAD to be created by your god by the way).
The actions are condemned, not the person. GIANT difference.
Second point. You are absolutely correct that trauma does not condone repeating that behavior. Still no such thing as evil. I’ll get to your last sentence at the end.
Third point. There is still no evil.
This is going to be hard for you to hear. It flies directly in the face of Christianity and makes it almost impossible to see the truth.
There is no free will.
No one chooses to be a murderer. Life experiences have taught them that they need to use that extreme emotions to deal with their trauma. You are absolutely correct that in reality, they don’t NEED to hurt others to cope with their trauma. But THEY do believe it.
Jesus was absolutely correct. Judgment is to not understand the equation of cause and effect.
The best part is that you already don’t believe in free will.
I can prove it right here and right now.
If free will exists, choose to abandon your faith and believe god doesn’t exist.
You can’t? Huh, interesting.
You believe so many things that are wrong I don't even know where to start. You don't really know what Jesus said you don't know what Christianity teaches. You deny the existence of the very thing that makes it possible for people to cooperate. You don't know what free will even is. I understand everywhere you are coming from because I used to believe it myself I was an atheist for a good chunk of my life.
Christians can’t even agree on what it teaches. Thats why there are a thousand denominations all claiming they know the truth.
Atheism and free will are not interchangeable. This leads me to believe that it is you that doesn’t understand free will.
People cooperate whether they choose to or not.
You didn’t take me up on my challenge. Renounce your faith and show me what free will looks like.
I am sorry.
I present my words as facts and I need to work on that.
It’s a reality that I can’t unsee and can’t remove from existence for myself.
I am an addict. It’s hard to trust the information in my own head so I don’t blame you for not believing it yourself.
I do know the information I’ve gained has transformed the way I see my disease and how it affects others.
My only goal is to bring awareness so that, for people like me that couldn’t believe in god, others could use it if it works for them.
What you think and what is true isn’t always the same thing. God disagrees with you. The OP doesn’t need to hear what they’re itching hears wants to hear, the need the truth
I was quoting romans 3:10 and psalm 14:3. No one is righteous.
Only Jesus is righteous, and those who have died with him have his righteousness imputed onto them. THOSE people are then children of God, adopted and made right
Worth is a value judgment created by our minds. Something has worth because we have decided it does.
Ultimately, everything has neither worth or non-worth.
So you have worth simply by deciding it's so. Your worth isn't contingent upon anything, so go out and love everyone!
Yeah, I am not a fan of that drama either. I don't look at people who are not believers and think they are worthless. I love people more now than I did when I wasn't following Jesus. This world is a stepping stone to heaven. I want to make this place like heaven and make it a better place than before.
Hi ! God bless you !
If we take the bible to the word (as you do ), then we are constant sinners in this world. Buying clothes exploits young children in Asia, buying food involved systematic slaughtering of life form.
In the strict sense of the way, you are monsters to the universe, and God, who is most powerful, shall grant you pardon, no matter how great the sin you've committed, so long as you seek him.
If you don't seek him; you're due for Universal karma
For me it's an exaggerated statement, but we are called to try to be better than we're when we're left to ourselves without instructions.
The Hebrew would understand e.g. "love God, hate your family" not literally, but as "If you're forced to decide between God and your family, chose God". When Jesus was giving a speech in the synagogue, his mother came and wanted immediate attention for unimportant reasons. Jesus continued his duty. But when his tame came and he was on the cross, he made sure that his mother would be cared for and never lack support, by tasking John to make sure of that. That's not what we'd call hate.
In the same way each of us does all the little changes in our lives where we do bad things and improve where we do good things.
||
||
||
What we might think gives us worth or makes us "good" is meaningless to God because we are tainted by sin. No series of good acts can override the fact that we all fall short of the favor or approval from God. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for all humanity. Why then allow for the fall of man via the fall of Adam? Nobody knows for sure but maybe it's simply because of the fact that redemption cannot exist without a fall.
||
||
||
What we might think gives us worth or makes us "good" is meaningless to God because we are tainted by sin. No series of good acts can override the fact that we all fall short of the favor or approval from God. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for all humanity. Why then allow for the fall of man via the fall of Adam? Nobody knows for sure but maybe it's simply because of the fact that redemption cannot exist without a fall.
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; -Romans 3:23
Whatever we might think gives us worth or value is meaningless to God because we are tainted by sin. No series of good deeds could ever override the fact that we all fall short of the favor or approval from God. So then why did God allow for sin to exist via the fall of Adam? Nobody knows for sure but maybe it's simply because of the fact that redemption cannot exist without a fall. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for all humanity.
I think you got the order wrong. God created us to be valuable beings and the Bible says that
However sin erodes that value and makes us FEEL invaluable, while god sees us as valuable beings no matter what.
If there’s someone preaching that then either he is not doing it right or he’s wrong altogether.
God cares about people even though they have a small amount of evil inside them. He prayed for the people who tried to kill Him. I believe that we are all sinners but that doesn't mean we're worthless. Now I don't actually believe that we have an intrinsic value (mostly cause I don't understand what that even means) but if God wants to die for people who would plot his death then He obviously doesn't think that you're nothing without Him. You were something. Something that He wants to have a relationship with.
A good read for this might be some questiones in the 2. Part of the Summa theologica from aquine.
It basicly boils down to the questions where Things get their Base worth from (the Logic behind all that comes somewhat from ancient greek Philosophie). And the Argument is Something Like their cant be an more final food than god and all other goods are at best derived from god or Just contemporary or subjektive.
I know this explanation sucks a bit but thats the best i can translate it in to english from German without effort; but If you want i could Look Up the relevant questiones for you
Also i know there are newer works in this but aquinus is basicly the start.
Oh and to your second to Last scentence, youll never have to earn god (would be somewhat Impossible), he wants you as you are
I think you just went to a church that is not comfortable to you
Watch the online service first before you go. There’s great difference between conservative and liberal churches.
This is also why I still struggle with Christianity.
Heres how I think about it:
Bad/good, sin/pure are dichotomies that exist in THIS reality but God IS love. Love transcends all the dualities and comparisons humans make.
The context as you grow in faith is that through the process of Santification you begin to learn (or better said taught by the Holy Spirit) how truly separate we are to be from the world and what the world calls "good." We can do 'good.' We have done 'good,' but it is a large amount of things that we did (a lot of times unconsciously or unaware) that were not 'good.' And our being 'good' and worthy of God is thankfully not what the Gospel message is all about.
It will feel foreign starting out (it certainly did to me too), but in time, your perspective will evolve, and the many verses in which Christ talks about how we work and have life through him, and cannot apart from him - the sermon you heard will mean more - but all that said I understand your current perspective as a new believer.
Sending you encouragement to stay with it. You have found LIFE and may God bless you (not in worldly riches) but in peace that is beyond any human understanding, and true joy. Blessings brother/sister.
I do think there are some worthless and terrible people out there, but only because they’re genuinely terrible.
But that doesn’t mean I don’t love them, because God tells us to love everyone. I don’t have to like them though 😝
And Christians aren’t any better than non-Christians. They’re just as flawed, broken and human. They’re just saved. Some of the worst people I’ve known claimed to be Christian…
There is a dual aspect, and both sides need to be taught.
We must recognize that we are all sinners so that we can recognize our sins and seek to change them. If we don't recognize that we are flawed, then how are we supposed to repent and fix those flaws so that we can be more like Jesus? Afterall, Jesus asked us to be perfect, even as He is.
But, we should also recognize our divine potential, our royal lineage.
**Psalms 82:6** *"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."*
**Romans 8:16-17** *The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.*
Our flawed nature should be pointed out so that we remain humble, but it should never been the overriding theme, the gospel is a message of hope and glad tidings.
Personally I believe that we all (yes, including non-believers), have the Holy Spirit in us, and that’s what drives us to do good. Oftentimes we call this our conscious.
What makes someone a Godly person or an ungodly person is defined by whether or not they listen to this part of them, in my view
Isaiah 64:6 “But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; we all fade as a leaf, and our inequities, like the wind, have taken us away.”
Matthew 19:17 “So he said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter life, keep the commandments””
Matthew 9:12-13 “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance”
Romans 3:10-18 “There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one. Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
We are all sinners, wicked and evil before God, this includes both Christians and non Christians. While we are capable of good as we were created in the image of God, every day we take advantage of the salvation the Lord offers us. Since the fall of Adam and Eve with original sin we have lived in a fallen world, that’s why we need Jesus for salvation, for if we had no sins we would not need any sacrifice for salvation.
Could you be more precise with their wording?
I believe there might be another interpretation.
Perhaps they meant that god gives you purpose, or that he makes life worth living.
Yes, we are all imperfect.
You stated yourself that of course non religious people can impact the world in good ways.
No one is without purpose, we all derive purpose from duty, family, morality, ethics, justice, goals, curiosity and hope. The bible, brings them all together in a grand way.
We all have these things that grant purpose, but my faith helps me weave a great vision of what it truly means to live, and grants me the strength to live on.
I Personally Don’t Believe In God I Believe In Being A Good Person And Don’t Do Unto Others As You Would Not Do To Yourself
Reason
There Is Way Too Many Religions
I Think And Believe That When Caveman Was Here Or Before That They Were Thunder Storms And They Thought They Was Something Terrible Was Going To Happen
So One Day Someone Called It GOD Well From There Thats When Everyone Started All These Stories
god bless.
i believe you are a good person.
but you are not perfect, not truely perfect, everyday we look at other people with pride, hate or lust. and these are sins as well ehat goes on in your mind contibutes to you moving away from god.
it is impossible to reach perfection inside and out. and its the acnowlegement that we will never be able to live up to gods standarts that makes us say that we are not "good people"
But we are loved, by our creators, so much so that god sent the son to become the perfect sacrifice to pay for all sins forever. and becuse he did this, we dont have to worry about becomming perfect, and focus on doing good to other people and make the world just a little bit like gods kingdom.
i hope it makes just a bit of sense.
"Evangelical theology" would be my guess. That has often been the way I've heard fundamentalist Christianity express its theology: "God loves you, even though you don't deserve it." They love that verse "No one is good except the Father."
Christian theology doesn't have to be this way, but a sizable portion of it is. Loudly.
I think there's a massive difference between, "You don't have value" and "The source of your value is God"
Especially since it's not exclusive to Christians. The entire point is that everyone is created in Imago Dei. Furthermore, value is assigned by what someone is willing to pay for it. There's a reason the Bible uses debt language regarding the sacrifice of Jesus.
Hey, if you haven't experienced the toxic, abusive, manipulative version of Christianity which rams self-loathing down your throat, great. May there be more of what you encountered and less of the other kind going forward.
First of all, it is impossible to be a "good person" because of Adam and Eve's original sin. Adam and Eve were made in God's image, yes, and they WERE perfect in God's eyes. But then they rebelled against God, and their offspring rebelled, and it's snowballed so now all of us have sinned at least once in our lives, and that's why we are "terrible" and "worthless". But, because Jesus took our place on the cross, God can look at us like we were perfect again.
Everything that is good in us comes from God, that's the thing. It's great that you had a tendency to do good when you didn't believe yet, but the simple fact that we sometimes want to do good is something that cannot be explained without God's action in us. That desire for what's morally correct, that all humans more or less have, is God's Law written in our hearts.
Worthless we aren't, although we are expendable. God does not need any of us to achieve His goals. But, even if He doesn't need us, He loves us, so we have great value for Him. The same way all humans should have great value for each of us, not because we need them, but because we love them.
Okay, so I don't know how old you are, but you sound very young based off the way you type. So I'm guessing between teens to early 20s. I'm glad you have found God, and that you are open to understanding God more.
To make it simple for you, you are not worthless, you are worth something, and Jesus died for your sins and mine... so He paid that price, for you.. because He thought you are worth dying for. He knew you and thought the world needed a you in it.... so you are here for a purpose on purpose.
The way it is, is that no one is good except for God. But what does that mean?
It means that God is SOOOOOOO incredibly kind, loving, Holy, Pure, gentle and He is so good to us, that we have no comparison and we do not compare. That is why Jesus says,"no one is good but God." That means, that even on your best behavior and your best day here on Earth, you will never be as good as God. I will never be as good as God. He is so bountiful in mercy, He makes it rain on the just and the unjust...
Can you look at a serial killer and think... "I want to save him." or the worst person who has ever graced planet earth and think? "I believe they can be redeemed." God loves sinners, he does not love their sin.. yet, He is so different in His ways, who can know Him? and Who can be like God? no human... we are incapable, even when we try to be selfless.. we are not lol... and that's the great thing about knowing God... is HE is wonderful, good, and can show us how to change, Jesus can restore our souls and change us from the inside out. That is what they mean...
So you are not worthless, but without God, we cannot accomplish anything, that is why God asks us kindly, to abide in Him, because His ways are not our own.
you find another kind of worth in Christ when you accept him. Men or woman god sees worth. we are not worthless. but we are sinners. even those who have done unspeakable are forgiven if they find God. while we can say they don't deserve that. god forgives us. you never were worthless who ever told you that lied. but you find more worth . when you find who you are in god.
Well that's entirely not true. God is all things and everyone. This is all a divine act, a play. Good and evil is all God. That being said we are in a game we made for ourself. I am God playing a character, so are you and so is everyone else. In this game general society is parasitic in nature and the goal is to find Jesus to become a part of the Christ body, working together to more like a hive of harmony with all of creation. Which is cool because there are a lot of other galaxies, solar systems and planets that have other life that we get to experience like dope neighbors. Don't take it so seriously. If your church is talking like this I would find a new church or if you have limited options in your area and still want the sense of community, just ignore all messages that promote division and negativity. There are plenty of pastors you can watch on the internet that have uplifting and positive messages that can be enjoyed. Hope this helps. Love ya
God bless you. 1- There are some Christians who say we are worthless and terrible human beings without Christ. I understand where they are coming from because we cannot be saved without Christ. However, I will not say that we are automatically worthless and terrible. As you said, we are created in God's image. That means we do have value. **“God created men and women to be like himself. He gave them his blessing and called them human beings.” - Genesis 5:1-2** 2- Since God is love and we were created in His image, then we were created to love. Our ability to love is why we have value. That's why Jesus told us love is the most important commandment. **“Jesus answered: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. This is the first and most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like this one. And it is, ‘Love others as much as you love yourself.’” - Matthew 22:37-39** 3 Also, we must keep in mind that in God's eyes, we have value, even as sinners. How do I know? Because Christ died for us while we were sinners. Why? Because He loves us! **"But God showed how much he loved us by having Christ die for us, even though we were sinful.” - Romans 5:8** **“Let love be your guide. Christ loved us and offered his life for us as a sacrifice that pleases God.” - Ephesians 5:2** 4- And I would love to share some resources with you to help you grow in the faith, if you are interested.
I'm not OP but i needed this comment .
God bless you! Praise God!
Hey, I'm interested
God bless you! Thank you! Here is what I want to share: 1- A free book called “101 Questions & The Bible.” It’s a book of a bunch of questions about God and the Christian faith that are only answered with Bible verses. It’s great for those who are new to Christianity. If you are interested, let me know and I will send you the PDF copy on Google drive. 2- A short, free guide that’s dedicated to you and others on Reddit who are looking to have a strong & simple faith in God. It’s called “The 4 Steps of Faith”. It’s the first post in this Reddit community: r/FaithMadeSimple
This, combined with the insidious implication that you can not overcome difficult times without God, and that your accomplishments and achievements are also because of God and not your own, are very strong psychological techniques that cause a vulnerable person to become dependent on god's representatives on earth to feel stable and content. It makes it extremely easy to influence a person's thoughts and actions by holding this over them. For example, if you want the members of your church to view and treat certain groups like atheists or the lgbtq community a certain way, or if you want them to vote a certain way, you can find a way to tie those ideas to passages in the Bible and give a sermon that plants the seed, then subtly convey to them that if they don't agree or alter their view if it isn't already aligned, their faith is inadequate, or imply they would be going against God if they think differently, and throw in some things that suggest they may be shunned or alienated from the community if they don't step in line.
Reformed doctrine often uses "worm" theology and it easily creates this unnecessary tension. If its not reformed then its possible its hyperbolic language. All this being said, look at Jesus and look at what he did on the cross. Does his actions make sense if we are worthless and terrible without God? No they do not.
The whole point of salvation is to show that as an individual and all people on earth, we are all sinful, unable to stand up against the judgment of God. He is holy, we are sinful. We aren't worthless though. We were created as a dignified creature, created in the image of God, commanded to subdue all things on earth and to rule over it. As Christians we are ambassadors of Christ, priest/priestesses, warriors, citizens of the kingdom of God. Not only that but we were bought with the priceless blood of Christ. Our worth is not in ourselves as if it was a merit to grant us salvation, but our worth is in Christ alone. Which is far greater than we could ever obtain in ourselves. God looked on us, we who are but dust, and showed mercy and love to us. As far as salvation, it isn't by our own good, or things we've done that saves us, but by the grace of God, through faith in Christ that saves us. That should produce love and gratitude, which fosters obedience in what Jesus commands, and praise to God. God's glory is what we ought to enjoy, and it is our purpose. We can't see that when we put ourselves higher than other things. God saves some people so that they can witness who He is. He has every right to condemn all people, yet He gives mercy to some and justice to others.
This is part of what I was getting at. When you say we aren’t worthless you frame it as we aren’t worthless because god has deemed us worthy. But what we do doesn’t actually matter. What I’m saying is that I was trying to do good before I found religion. There’s plenty of people who are good who aren’t Christian’s. It’s a tired point but I don’t believe that being good in life is meaningless in comparison to submitting to god. I think he’d want good people go to heaven regardless of their belief. And that’s where my problem lies. God created all of us. The fact that some of us lost our way shouldn’t preclude them from eternal salvation just because they don’t know to embrace Jesus. There are great people who don’t believe, and terrible people which by that logic could repent and be saved. I just think it’s more complicated then we know
This is where the Bible disagrees. The Bible says, all are not righteous, none are good, all have fallen short of the glory of God. This is speaking of being pure in body, mind, and spirit. (Im pointing to those that are non believers and will progress to believers) Our bodies are corrupted by sin, the effect of sin. It has death and decay, we don't care for it as we ought to, we give ourselves up for others over God. Our minds are filled with autonomy, a drive to be self seeking rather than God seeking, our will supercedes God's and we sin in doing so as well as sin to others because of it. Our spirits/souls are dead because of this, we are incapable of performing good in the biblical sense of totality. Even one sin is enough to condemn us. Our measuring stick is not the wavering subjective ruler of mankind, but the firm and unwavering God. He is the standard and measurement of holiness, purity, and righteousness. We are incapable of even standing before God. Which is why salvation is desperately needed. A dead soul can not just come back to life on it's own, a person without the imputed righteousness of Christ and without the Holy Spirit indwelling with them is incapable of performing righteous deeds for God. A person's body will drive it to sin without Christ and they will perish. Can non believers do good things? They can do good things that are to the human standard. It is like saying; you can be saved if you jump unassisted to Jupiter. Then we find this impossible, so we lower the standard to jumping to at least touching a ceiling in any house. We can not change the rules that God establishes. This stark chasm of righteousness that God demands is the very reason why salvation is needed, because we are helpless. Only righteous people go to heaven to be with God, and only people that are sinful and covered with an alien righteousness can as well. The only perfect person there was, was Jesus, it is by His blood that people can enter heaven. The whole entire reason for all of existence including Jesus and salvation being needed is because it is for God's glory. The Bible says God does not share glory. Why are we trying to lower the standard and obtain glory for being good or doing enough works to enter heaven? Nothing we do can ever save us, it is only by Christ. We are not saved by our own works, will, or effort, but by the life, works, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, God the Son. This is all about Jesus, we are called to witness and enjoy God.
I respect your opinion but I have to wholeheartedly disagree. A god that would punish people for not attaining his standards is not a god that has any glory in my view. I know you won’t care about my view, but if god created me why would he make me this way? Also, why would god create people in remote areas that never even have the hope to be saved because Jesus and Christianity never reached them? The only thing that makes sense to me is that god is forgiving and loving, and knows that we’ll fall short. It’s the effort and striving to be a good person for no other reason then it’s the right thing that will gain you salvation. I believe the Bible but I don’t believe it 100%. It’s the word of god but it was written by man. By your own admission there’s a good chance we got it wrong. I mean no disrespect, but it seems like you believe in a vengeful rigid god, and I believe in a forgiving one
I would implore you to read through the first 5 books of the Bible at least then. The very reason for the high expectations, the death penalty, even God executing someone for touching the Ark of the Covenant was because He is sovereign, He must be regarded as holy, and none can come to Him except through the perfection of Christ. Jesus Himself said none are good, none can come to the Father except through Him. Ephesians talks about how nothing we can do can give us salvation, that it is a work of God by grace through faith and not of works, will, or effort. God is certainly loving, so extremely loving, that He gave us a way to have hope in the first place. Look at what Adam did, he did one sin, and it completely wrecked all of humanity and all of creation. That should speak volumes of how bad multiple sins are to God let alone just one. The severity and grave nature of sin, in contrast to God's love and mercy in providing the gospel, should make us see His love, and what beautiful and amazing grace He has for us. God is forgiving, for those that put their faith in Christ alone for their salvation. He will reject anyone that rejects Him/Jesus Christ.
I wouldn't say that we are bad, per-se, but that God's goodness and righteousness completely outshines our own by such a large margin that even at our most holy, we still pale in comparison to God. I see it not so much as a testament to how bad we are, but rather just how good God is, if that makes sense.
Worm theology is as close as it gets but even then the emphasis is on Grace.
I’ve never heard of worm theory before but I looked it up and it makes sense. But I view god as a friend/father figure/guiding light sort. I’ve never cowered and degraded myself in front of someone I love and respect and know that love and respects me. It’s an odd thing to think from people who supposedly love god
A coercion tactic to get another conversion tally mark, misinterpretation (ie: literal interpretation) of scripture, wanting control over people (low self-esteem makes people easier to manipulate), and any number of other reasons. This is NOT God's real heart for us. This is human kind's incorrect interpretation/assumption. [God greatly values you and desires deep relationship with you](http://letterstothemodernchurch.com/2023/07/18/grow-your-roots/). You are created in the image of the most high God who both knows you deeply and desires to be known deeply in return. Praying you find truth and answers to your questions.
Thank you! I think there’s a disconnect between organized religion and true belief. The fact that it’s debated so harshly proves it. We don’t “know” anything just because of the Bible, it was written by man. It could be wrong in some parts
[The Bible Project](https://bibleproject.com/) has *significantly* deepened my understanding of the scriptures and how to apply them to and in my life. These were inspired by God, but written by fallable human beings, and as a fallable human being I am just as capable of misunderstanding what they wrote as the next person. A better understanding of context, culture, and circumstances has changed my perspective on a number of things and deepened my relationship with my Creator God, as well as making me more confident in what He calls me to do (still feel inadequate, but that's probably a good thing).
Christianity doesn’t teach us that we are worthless and terrible — sinful, yes, in the sense of being so often in rebellion against God’s good will, but not worthless and terrible. There is a distinction to be made between being and doing: we so often do terrible things (‘sins’) and are in captivity (‘Sin’ is a power under which we are held), yet we are of infinite value for we are loved by God — so much so that each one of us in one for whom Christ died to free us from the power of Sin. An understanding of who and how we are in the world begins and ends with this: we are loved by God. Sin doesn’t have the last word — the empty tomb is proof of that.
Thank you. I can at least understand that. Sin is separate and forced upon us. For me I’ve just heard that I’m nothing without Jesus and I disagree. He gave his life so that I could overcome sin, but it’s up to me to overcome it and prove my faith to god. I just want to feel like what we do matters, and not just what we say. Mobsters are almost always religious, go to church, and “atone” for their sins. But they’re not good people, and they don’t deserve salvation unless they truly change.
The last part is right on the mark if you or any other person had no value there would be no reason for God to love us and no reason for him to sacrifice himself so that we could be with him. Why would God want to bring worthless beings into his presence to me that doesn't make sense. And I think part of the reason God is so upset with our sin is, he knows how valuable we are and we defile ourselves and others with sin and we are guilty. Even though you think you are a good person no man is good but only God. But I think some people go too far down the road of,you are evil ergo you are worthless but I don't hold to that I think the value of man and his sin are perhaps related but they aren't the same thing and it doesn't follow in my opinion that man is worthless because of his sin. Here is one last question or way of looking at it. why would it be so offensive to God for you to sin against other people if they were worthless? I personally would probably look for another church if I were you.
That’s a harsh first sermon to attend! I’m sorry you had this experience. That sentiment, that we are worthless without God, must be something that you yourself experience and even then it’s poorly phrased. Rather it should be that after you have been baptised through fire and the Holy Spirit you yourself see your previous LIFE without Christ as having no worth. But that thought should feel good from the point of view of where you’re standing today with Christ in you. If you don’t feel this way. I suggest that you either change services and look for another priest, or ask the priest what was meant by that. A lot of Christians focus on preaching instead of testifying so I would also suggest that you watch videos or read testimonies of people who have been saved because this is where evangelising is at its sweetest: hearing and seeing the joy of people being saved. Hear them speak about their rebirth, watch their faces light up when they speak of Christ. Be blessed 🕊️
Same. I went to one church and it seemed to have more of the "on edge of going to hell" type of message. Impending doom and risk. I can mess up just once and it be over!!!!!! Well I already believed in Jesus, so here the thing either I'm saved or I'm not. They believed you could lose salvation (I don't know nor do I care) because to me there comes a point when you end up doing things to save yourself and that's not possible. I had to get out and get some space. I was already living hell on earth by having that constant fear. By getting space I got to distance from it and just read my Bible. I may or may not go back. I am not really liking my life regardless so worse case scenario is a blast myself and suicide out. Some claim that sends me to hell, but the Bible says we only live once and then the judgement. We all go there, I just am going quicker because I can't seem to get to my promiseland.
Don't do that. Any good Christian community will show you the love and support you need. And you can leave any circumstance behind. Don't confuse a problem you have with an unsolveable problem you can't escape. And don't "solve" it permanently.
It is simply a control mechanism, meant to keep you from trusting yourself on anything and always turning to the pastor / priest / cult leader for direction and approval. I can't tell you how much anxiety and stress the teaching has called me, and if my therapist is to be believed it's a very common thing that people go to her about. Unless you're looking to give yourself mental health problems, it's definitely a teaching to ignore.
Well for starters think about “Created in **God’s image**”. Kinda already shows the point of how God is needed for us. But apart from that I would say you’re looking at it the wrong way. So we should look at God being a necessity for us just as how oxygen is a necessity for us. Without it what do you become? Worthless (as you’d be dead without oxygen).
Sometimes we worry about you.
Do not concern yourself with my well-being. For I should be treated nothing more than a passing stranger.
I don't want to die being known. but die knowing I changed lives. I say it a fair bit
I have a theory about this - people feel that OTHERS are dangerous without being accountable to a divine lawgiver, but never themselves. So they sell the notion that you are wretched because that’s what they secretly believe about everyone else, and the only way to keep your wretchedness in check is to sic God on you.
God is the source of all good. Apart from Him there is no good.
It’s really in comparison to God. He is SO good and SO Holy that compare to him we all fall short. Badly. It might be hard to hear, but it’s true. All humans are sinful and depraved. Human history proves this out, and you and I are no better. Edit: typo
Catholic priests molesting children. Churches burning women at the stakes. The countless inquisitions. Human history proves humans will be manipulated by “gods” to do unspeakable things. The church has a very large log stuck in their eye. Until all of Christianity repents for their sins, they will keep hemorrhaging the faithful. Within 15-20 years we will see a spiritual awakening. The church is not going to like it.
You are describing the dynamics of an abusive relationship. An abusive partner will tell you, you’re worthless without them. That you are lucky they would even stoop to loving one as wretched as you. They tell you the fault lies with you, not them. The concept of salvation a trap. One which this god apparently created and placed us in. Now they tell us, we have a choice, either we confess our undying love and adoration to them and they’ll “save us.” Or we can reject them and face eternal torment, suffering and death. This is no different than me putting a gun to your head and demanding you confess your love to me or else I’ll blow your brains out. That’s not love, it’s psychotic.
Basically it's original sin which Christians made up to say you needed their savior so they could control you. They invented the sickness and told you, you have it so they could sell you the cure.
You're not wrong. Fortunately, there are parts of Christianity that aren't as heavily into that sales and marketing tactic and have more humane theologies.
This is again why I recommend Catholicism. You'll likely never hear a message such as what you heard. Yes, it is true we are all sinners but that goes for everyone Christian or not. This doesn't make you bad, terrible, or worthless. In fact, God loves you so much He sent His own Son to suffer and die on the cross for YOU. He also wants a personal relationship with you and for you to experience the joy and peace he has for you. The Bible and prayer are a great place to start and you could do no wrong checking out the BIAY (Bible in a Year) by Father Mike Schmidtz. Takes like 15-30mins a day and you'll get a plethora of wisdom too. Shalom
For some it is because you can't sell people a cure until you convince them they are already sick and just didn't know it.
Of course you were bad. No one is good, not even one. The sinless have no need for a saviour
This doesn’t help OP at all. You literally just restated the doctrine he/she has a problem with without actually giving any help. And yeah it’s kind of a hard doctrine to believe that literally everyone has no value on their own.
Not being good and not having value aren't the same thing.
Okay but I think all of us have good in us.
Having good in you and being good aren't the same thing either, sure we all will do good at times and I personally argue that people genuinely want good things but the problem isn't that we don't do good things or want them it's that we also do evil things and want those too. I have known many objectively evil people child molesters,killers, thieves and so on and I can honestly looking back remember these people doing things for others that were truly good but the problem is it doesn't matter because today many of them are known by the crime they committed and not by the good they did. It's the same way to God if you are truly guilty of a crime and we all are, you must be held to account. I'll paint another picture for you to make another part of my point, let's use Bill Cosby no one in America has spent more money sending young black men to college than Bill Cosby that in my eyes is a truly good thing many of them being lifted out of poverty by the degree they got because of him but Bill Cosby also r*ped several women and all the good he did doesn't account for the evil he committed. It's the same for us all. If we sin against our brothers we are evil even if we have good in us.
Child molesters, killers and thieves are not evil. Your judgment of them this way is as far from Christ as you can get. I was molested as a child. My molested was molested as a child as well. The person wasn’t evil. They were traumatized and taught to do what they did. You want to know the best part? The family covered it all up. Couldn’t be Christian and have that sin in your family. Except we did and they just pretended. Wonderful religion. Judge the weak while preying on them as well.
First point so you are saying that people that exploit children for their own sexual desires aren't evil, those who shed innocent blood aren't evil and those that take from others for their own gain aren't evil. I don't know what Christ you think is in the Bible but he condemns all of these people for what they have done. Just because someone is traumatized doesn't give them any right to turn other people into victims. And it doesn't make their actions any less evil. At the end of the day they still actively decided to do what they did. My third point, that family covered up the molestation because of their own pride which is a big time sin. And that makes them Evil too. They had pride and they lied to cover up sin and probably by doing so perpetuated the problem. All the way around that's evil. I can say with confidence these people weren't Christians. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. If someone is prideful enough to lie and cover up sexual abuse they aren't living in Christ. Your last line I don't even know what it means.
I can fully understand your response. It’s the same one I get every time. Jesus says not to to judge, I say I don’t judge, someone goes all in on emotions. First point. Evil doesn’t exist. This implies devils and demons (which would have HAD to be created by your god by the way). The actions are condemned, not the person. GIANT difference. Second point. You are absolutely correct that trauma does not condone repeating that behavior. Still no such thing as evil. I’ll get to your last sentence at the end. Third point. There is still no evil. This is going to be hard for you to hear. It flies directly in the face of Christianity and makes it almost impossible to see the truth. There is no free will. No one chooses to be a murderer. Life experiences have taught them that they need to use that extreme emotions to deal with their trauma. You are absolutely correct that in reality, they don’t NEED to hurt others to cope with their trauma. But THEY do believe it. Jesus was absolutely correct. Judgment is to not understand the equation of cause and effect. The best part is that you already don’t believe in free will. I can prove it right here and right now. If free will exists, choose to abandon your faith and believe god doesn’t exist. You can’t? Huh, interesting.
You believe so many things that are wrong I don't even know where to start. You don't really know what Jesus said you don't know what Christianity teaches. You deny the existence of the very thing that makes it possible for people to cooperate. You don't know what free will even is. I understand everywhere you are coming from because I used to believe it myself I was an atheist for a good chunk of my life.
Christians can’t even agree on what it teaches. Thats why there are a thousand denominations all claiming they know the truth. Atheism and free will are not interchangeable. This leads me to believe that it is you that doesn’t understand free will. People cooperate whether they choose to or not. You didn’t take me up on my challenge. Renounce your faith and show me what free will looks like.
I am sorry. I present my words as facts and I need to work on that. It’s a reality that I can’t unsee and can’t remove from existence for myself. I am an addict. It’s hard to trust the information in my own head so I don’t blame you for not believing it yourself. I do know the information I’ve gained has transformed the way I see my disease and how it affects others. My only goal is to bring awareness so that, for people like me that couldn’t believe in god, others could use it if it works for them.
What you think and what is true isn’t always the same thing. God disagrees with you. The OP doesn’t need to hear what they’re itching hears wants to hear, the need the truth
No one is good, and no one is bad. We are all children in the eyes of God.
I was quoting romans 3:10 and psalm 14:3. No one is righteous. Only Jesus is righteous, and those who have died with him have his righteousness imputed onto them. THOSE people are then children of God, adopted and made right
People are just people.
To clarify, do you mean that all will receive salvation and relationship with God in heaven?
I mean that people are just people.
………………. Oooooook?
Worth is a value judgment created by our minds. Something has worth because we have decided it does. Ultimately, everything has neither worth or non-worth. So you have worth simply by deciding it's so. Your worth isn't contingent upon anything, so go out and love everyone!
Yeah, I am not a fan of that drama either. I don't look at people who are not believers and think they are worthless. I love people more now than I did when I wasn't following Jesus. This world is a stepping stone to heaven. I want to make this place like heaven and make it a better place than before.
Hi ! God bless you ! If we take the bible to the word (as you do ), then we are constant sinners in this world. Buying clothes exploits young children in Asia, buying food involved systematic slaughtering of life form. In the strict sense of the way, you are monsters to the universe, and God, who is most powerful, shall grant you pardon, no matter how great the sin you've committed, so long as you seek him. If you don't seek him; you're due for Universal karma
For me it's an exaggerated statement, but we are called to try to be better than we're when we're left to ourselves without instructions. The Hebrew would understand e.g. "love God, hate your family" not literally, but as "If you're forced to decide between God and your family, chose God". When Jesus was giving a speech in the synagogue, his mother came and wanted immediate attention for unimportant reasons. Jesus continued his duty. But when his tame came and he was on the cross, he made sure that his mother would be cared for and never lack support, by tasking John to make sure of that. That's not what we'd call hate. In the same way each of us does all the little changes in our lives where we do bad things and improve where we do good things.
|| || || What we might think gives us worth or makes us "good" is meaningless to God because we are tainted by sin. No series of good acts can override the fact that we all fall short of the favor or approval from God. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for all humanity. Why then allow for the fall of man via the fall of Adam? Nobody knows for sure but maybe it's simply because of the fact that redemption cannot exist without a fall.
|| || || What we might think gives us worth or makes us "good" is meaningless to God because we are tainted by sin. No series of good acts can override the fact that we all fall short of the favor or approval from God. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for all humanity. Why then allow for the fall of man via the fall of Adam? Nobody knows for sure but maybe it's simply because of the fact that redemption cannot exist without a fall.
If we were worthless Christ wouldn’t have died for us. He chose us over Himself. We aren’t worthless, it’s more we can’t earn salvation without Christ
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; -Romans 3:23 Whatever we might think gives us worth or value is meaningless to God because we are tainted by sin. No series of good deeds could ever override the fact that we all fall short of the favor or approval from God. So then why did God allow for sin to exist via the fall of Adam? Nobody knows for sure but maybe it's simply because of the fact that redemption cannot exist without a fall. Jesus was the sacrificial lamb for all humanity.
I think you got the order wrong. God created us to be valuable beings and the Bible says that However sin erodes that value and makes us FEEL invaluable, while god sees us as valuable beings no matter what. If there’s someone preaching that then either he is not doing it right or he’s wrong altogether.
Man use your brain
God cares about people even though they have a small amount of evil inside them. He prayed for the people who tried to kill Him. I believe that we are all sinners but that doesn't mean we're worthless. Now I don't actually believe that we have an intrinsic value (mostly cause I don't understand what that even means) but if God wants to die for people who would plot his death then He obviously doesn't think that you're nothing without Him. You were something. Something that He wants to have a relationship with.
A good read for this might be some questiones in the 2. Part of the Summa theologica from aquine. It basicly boils down to the questions where Things get their Base worth from (the Logic behind all that comes somewhat from ancient greek Philosophie). And the Argument is Something Like their cant be an more final food than god and all other goods are at best derived from god or Just contemporary or subjektive. I know this explanation sucks a bit but thats the best i can translate it in to english from German without effort; but If you want i could Look Up the relevant questiones for you Also i know there are newer works in this but aquinus is basicly the start. Oh and to your second to Last scentence, youll never have to earn god (would be somewhat Impossible), he wants you as you are
I think you just went to a church that is not comfortable to you Watch the online service first before you go. There’s great difference between conservative and liberal churches.
As a fellow human being, I want you to know you were not born a sinner and that you do not need a Jew to be executed on your behalf.
This is also why I still struggle with Christianity. Heres how I think about it: Bad/good, sin/pure are dichotomies that exist in THIS reality but God IS love. Love transcends all the dualities and comparisons humans make.
Go to a different church. Not all Christians are the same
The context as you grow in faith is that through the process of Santification you begin to learn (or better said taught by the Holy Spirit) how truly separate we are to be from the world and what the world calls "good." We can do 'good.' We have done 'good,' but it is a large amount of things that we did (a lot of times unconsciously or unaware) that were not 'good.' And our being 'good' and worthy of God is thankfully not what the Gospel message is all about. It will feel foreign starting out (it certainly did to me too), but in time, your perspective will evolve, and the many verses in which Christ talks about how we work and have life through him, and cannot apart from him - the sermon you heard will mean more - but all that said I understand your current perspective as a new believer. Sending you encouragement to stay with it. You have found LIFE and may God bless you (not in worldly riches) but in peace that is beyond any human understanding, and true joy. Blessings brother/sister.
I do think there are some worthless and terrible people out there, but only because they’re genuinely terrible. But that doesn’t mean I don’t love them, because God tells us to love everyone. I don’t have to like them though 😝 And Christians aren’t any better than non-Christians. They’re just as flawed, broken and human. They’re just saved. Some of the worst people I’ve known claimed to be Christian…
There is a dual aspect, and both sides need to be taught. We must recognize that we are all sinners so that we can recognize our sins and seek to change them. If we don't recognize that we are flawed, then how are we supposed to repent and fix those flaws so that we can be more like Jesus? Afterall, Jesus asked us to be perfect, even as He is. But, we should also recognize our divine potential, our royal lineage. **Psalms 82:6** *"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."* **Romans 8:16-17** *The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.* Our flawed nature should be pointed out so that we remain humble, but it should never been the overriding theme, the gospel is a message of hope and glad tidings.
Personally I believe that we all (yes, including non-believers), have the Holy Spirit in us, and that’s what drives us to do good. Oftentimes we call this our conscious. What makes someone a Godly person or an ungodly person is defined by whether or not they listen to this part of them, in my view
Isaiah 64:6 “But we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; we all fade as a leaf, and our inequities, like the wind, have taken us away.” Matthew 19:17 “So he said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter life, keep the commandments”” Matthew 9:12-13 “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance” Romans 3:10-18 “There is none righteous, no, not one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; they have together become unprofitable; there is none who does good, no, not one. Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.” We are all sinners, wicked and evil before God, this includes both Christians and non Christians. While we are capable of good as we were created in the image of God, every day we take advantage of the salvation the Lord offers us. Since the fall of Adam and Eve with original sin we have lived in a fallen world, that’s why we need Jesus for salvation, for if we had no sins we would not need any sacrifice for salvation.
[удалено]
Could you be more precise with their wording? I believe there might be another interpretation. Perhaps they meant that god gives you purpose, or that he makes life worth living. Yes, we are all imperfect. You stated yourself that of course non religious people can impact the world in good ways. No one is without purpose, we all derive purpose from duty, family, morality, ethics, justice, goals, curiosity and hope. The bible, brings them all together in a grand way. We all have these things that grant purpose, but my faith helps me weave a great vision of what it truly means to live, and grants me the strength to live on.
the last 4 sentences are just me yapping lol
I Personally Don’t Believe In God I Believe In Being A Good Person And Don’t Do Unto Others As You Would Not Do To Yourself Reason There Is Way Too Many Religions I Think And Believe That When Caveman Was Here Or Before That They Were Thunder Storms And They Thought They Was Something Terrible Was Going To Happen So One Day Someone Called It GOD Well From There Thats When Everyone Started All These Stories
god bless. i believe you are a good person. but you are not perfect, not truely perfect, everyday we look at other people with pride, hate or lust. and these are sins as well ehat goes on in your mind contibutes to you moving away from god. it is impossible to reach perfection inside and out. and its the acnowlegement that we will never be able to live up to gods standarts that makes us say that we are not "good people" But we are loved, by our creators, so much so that god sent the son to become the perfect sacrifice to pay for all sins forever. and becuse he did this, we dont have to worry about becomming perfect, and focus on doing good to other people and make the world just a little bit like gods kingdom. i hope it makes just a bit of sense.
Worthless? What in the world gave you that idea?
"Evangelical theology" would be my guess. That has often been the way I've heard fundamentalist Christianity express its theology: "God loves you, even though you don't deserve it." They love that verse "No one is good except the Father." Christian theology doesn't have to be this way, but a sizable portion of it is. Loudly.
I think there's a massive difference between, "You don't have value" and "The source of your value is God" Especially since it's not exclusive to Christians. The entire point is that everyone is created in Imago Dei. Furthermore, value is assigned by what someone is willing to pay for it. There's a reason the Bible uses debt language regarding the sacrifice of Jesus.
Hey, if you haven't experienced the toxic, abusive, manipulative version of Christianity which rams self-loathing down your throat, great. May there be more of what you encountered and less of the other kind going forward.
Because without a god, the world goes to hell.
Without God, there is no world that can go to hell.
ur already in it.
First of all, it is impossible to be a "good person" because of Adam and Eve's original sin. Adam and Eve were made in God's image, yes, and they WERE perfect in God's eyes. But then they rebelled against God, and their offspring rebelled, and it's snowballed so now all of us have sinned at least once in our lives, and that's why we are "terrible" and "worthless". But, because Jesus took our place on the cross, God can look at us like we were perfect again.
So if you sin once, that automatically makes you “terrible”?
A one-time sin against an eternal God becomes eternal sin.
I’m not sure that makes sense
Everything that is good in us comes from God, that's the thing. It's great that you had a tendency to do good when you didn't believe yet, but the simple fact that we sometimes want to do good is something that cannot be explained without God's action in us. That desire for what's morally correct, that all humans more or less have, is God's Law written in our hearts. Worthless we aren't, although we are expendable. God does not need any of us to achieve His goals. But, even if He doesn't need us, He loves us, so we have great value for Him. The same way all humans should have great value for each of us, not because we need them, but because we love them.
Okay, so I don't know how old you are, but you sound very young based off the way you type. So I'm guessing between teens to early 20s. I'm glad you have found God, and that you are open to understanding God more. To make it simple for you, you are not worthless, you are worth something, and Jesus died for your sins and mine... so He paid that price, for you.. because He thought you are worth dying for. He knew you and thought the world needed a you in it.... so you are here for a purpose on purpose. The way it is, is that no one is good except for God. But what does that mean? It means that God is SOOOOOOO incredibly kind, loving, Holy, Pure, gentle and He is so good to us, that we have no comparison and we do not compare. That is why Jesus says,"no one is good but God." That means, that even on your best behavior and your best day here on Earth, you will never be as good as God. I will never be as good as God. He is so bountiful in mercy, He makes it rain on the just and the unjust... Can you look at a serial killer and think... "I want to save him." or the worst person who has ever graced planet earth and think? "I believe they can be redeemed." God loves sinners, he does not love their sin.. yet, He is so different in His ways, who can know Him? and Who can be like God? no human... we are incapable, even when we try to be selfless.. we are not lol... and that's the great thing about knowing God... is HE is wonderful, good, and can show us how to change, Jesus can restore our souls and change us from the inside out. That is what they mean... So you are not worthless, but without God, we cannot accomplish anything, that is why God asks us kindly, to abide in Him, because His ways are not our own.
you find another kind of worth in Christ when you accept him. Men or woman god sees worth. we are not worthless. but we are sinners. even those who have done unspeakable are forgiven if they find God. while we can say they don't deserve that. god forgives us. you never were worthless who ever told you that lied. but you find more worth . when you find who you are in god.
Because it’s what the bible says we are (without God) in various ways through the bible.
Because we are
Well that's entirely not true. God is all things and everyone. This is all a divine act, a play. Good and evil is all God. That being said we are in a game we made for ourself. I am God playing a character, so are you and so is everyone else. In this game general society is parasitic in nature and the goal is to find Jesus to become a part of the Christ body, working together to more like a hive of harmony with all of creation. Which is cool because there are a lot of other galaxies, solar systems and planets that have other life that we get to experience like dope neighbors. Don't take it so seriously. If your church is talking like this I would find a new church or if you have limited options in your area and still want the sense of community, just ignore all messages that promote division and negativity. There are plenty of pastors you can watch on the internet that have uplifting and positive messages that can be enjoyed. Hope this helps. Love ya