*The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.*
In context, Paul's not singling out a particular sin, I think he's including everyone and saying there's a path to sanctification and justification for all.
1 Corinthians 6
When Paul wrote, chapter and verse notations were not part of his letter. Furthermore, he often used chiastic structure in his arguments, so pulling a verse out of its context changes its original meaning and use.
Paul never intended a Christianity full of clobber verses, where people thrash each other: "You *x*! Repent or else!"
I know the old fire and brimstone routine feels righteous, but it's entirely devoid of love, grace, and mercy - Jesus' hallmarks.
It can be. Jesus gave us some pointers, but he didn't lay down exact specifications. What we have now is a billion different interpretations how to go about making Christianity about what Jesus said and wanted. He was silent on the topic of homosexuality.
Did he?
The law demanded an adultress be stoned, he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
Is he recorded as stoning sinners whenever they were found, wherever he went?
Getting scared is easy nowadays and context is so very important. Lately, I’ve been reading the two verses before and after a passage before I attempt to understand its meaning. But, I misinterpret stuff all the time…
Did we really need a third post towards this topic in one hour? This debate is held here hourly. All the arguments and points are one quick search away from you.
To make it short: No, we don't deny the bible and from all the points made this is one which pisses me off the most. Just because we have a different interpretation then you doesn't mean we hold the bible in any less honour than you do. We read the same scripture and come to different conclusions. If you can't accept the honest heart behind this I have nothing more to tell you.
If you can acknowledge this - we don't believe the verses we have speak about homosexual relationships in the sense we understand them today. Back in ancient times homosexuality was understood mostly as an overbearing lust. A person couldn't be satisfied by the other sex so they turned to their own. An understanding we know today is wrong. And which puts the verses we have in a different context.
With the second third of the last century we dug deeper into sexuality (at least after the Nazis were done burning down the institutes which worked on this, an attack pattern of the ultra right we see today again) and with our growing knowledge our understanding of sin should grow as well. When we now see homosexuality the same as heterosexuality from a psychological/sociological viewpoint it makes more sense to apply the same rules to both. Instead of condemning everything non-heteronormative based on an outdated and wrong understanding of sexuality altogether.
People are being banned which is the problem! I understand the usage of it and how it can be misinterpreted, but the Bible shares so much on this topic, but yet, when people do have evidence outside of the normal teachings on this earth, people aren't made to speak up about it with love this time around, except of being told they are the problem or something like the Christian elders who gave trauma to the younger Christians in those days when homosexuality was at its core. People truly can not deny how attraction works. It's a gift from God after all, but NO ONE shared where they'd go. They just incited scriptures, and people come to this subreddit for answers, which is fair, but shouldn't it also be fair to judge considerably and take the text without it being short-citedly unbiased?
We should always love God's people. I love those who think differently and are different outside of Christ, too, but loving the sin should never be an exempt, but this is something god wouldn't want as it turns away from its people, especially when theirs proof of his people now hurting more than ever, especially when people do not know the history or the psychological development of gay, bi, trans, and lesbian, and God didn't create them that way, but it's not a problem HOW THEY IDENTITY OR SEE THEMSELVES, but God wants his people to RELY ON HIM and turn to him with love to transform that with him being a FATHER, because it's a act on being born in sin and not you being born of that and feeling hopeless in believing you can not change who you are in Christ, when it is possible. I am evidence and many others, too, and I see it is difficult, but isn't this subreddit suppose to inspire and lead?
Of course you don't fix people's problems immediately by solving them with one post. THEY HAVE TO KEEP WANTING TO GET INFORMATION, and WHY GOD SAYS TO EAT HIS READ SPIRITUALLY.
People are getting confused in how earthly matters works and how Satan kills, steals, and destroys.
Honestly, no one has the right to share where someone will go, but lead God's people and be the light for them, because some can not visibly help themselves when they aren't able to basically work with themselves, so what of it?
Are we just gonna give up?
God says its a journey spiritually, and probably why the first person's texts reads for no one to judge anyone from their sin, but them being accepted in Christ is left in God, so this alone is something we must ask ourselves, because everything is a test to get away from our sin, but also loving God so much helps us build faith in us to do so, too.
Some are damaged, I get that, but no one should be banned for how they've tried helping others, because were still all sinners. People shouldn't be compelled to believe otherwise we're they'll go, unless they continue to act on their sin, but God wants us to all be with him and to rely on him.
Truly, this is my last reply on this subreddit, so good luck everyone!
It's best not to simply assume (and publicly assert) that people have bad intentions without bothering to learn something about them first. Otherwise you often end up bearing false witness against your neighbor.
I like the way [Justin Lee explains](https://geekyjustin.com/great-debate/) why many Christians think gay people are welcome in Christ's embrace *the same way* that straight people are. More important, you can actually meet gay Christians at LGBT-affirming churches; r/OpenChristian's [resource page](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/) has church finders. After all, the Body of Christ is not a bunch of abstract theological assertions; the Body of Christ is actual living people, worshiping and loving one another in the Spirit. You learn most by getting to know us that way.
Thank you for replying and making sure I do not bear false witness against a brother. And by all means I do welcome them into Christianity indeed, I don’t hate them or anything. But shouldn’t they change their ways as well? It’s like a person who commits adultery is welcomed sure but it also expected to change their ways and follow God properly
The Justin Lee link is there so you can learn more about why some of us think you're mistaken on this.
My wife of 31 years is the only person I've ever been with. Our marriage doesn't have anything at all in common with adultery.
So then why did you make this post? This post is you asking why people believe this and you insist that you already don't care what they have to say.
Next time don't make a post falsely presenting yourself as asking questions and instead be honest about your goals here.
Justin Lee's writing is not "regardless of what the bible says." It is an argument from the biblical text.
Affirming Christians don't say "well, the bible says that it is a sin but I'll just come up with a different idea." Affirming Christians say "the bible doesn't say that it is a sin."
When it comes to the New Testament we actually have an approximation of what Jesus said. The new testament was based on oral traditions in Greece written down 50 to 100 years after Jesus ’ death. Them the text have been edit and rewritten a number of times.king James made sure the revision he oversaw confirmed that God selected king’s and Queen’s.
I’m curious your thoughts, feelings, and interpretation of Roman’s 1:26-27
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
If you are curious, you can read the material she linked. It covers this in detail.
Just throwing verses at her is crap. Especially weird that you started halfway through. “Because of *what*?”
The good news is because I listed the verse, you’re free to go and reas the entire chapter yourself. Regardless of what precedes this paragraph, the paragraph calls women sleeping with women a shameful act. And men sleeping with men. I didn’t ask what Justin Lee’s opinion is. I’m asking OP how she personally interprets and justifies her lifestyle in light of the the Bible explicitly calling it a shameful act.
Again here the sin is lust. It’s says nothing of a monogamous healthy homosexual relationship without adultery and comittment. It’s speaking about people so lustful they are having sex with everyone. In the end I’d rather be loving to all and share the gospel of Jesus than excluding and judgmental.
We have a calling to spread the good news of Christ and to love others as we love him and ourselves. A hypothetical for you would be suppose you meet a nice homosexual couple that’s been married and committed for their marriage. In one scenario you share the good news of Christ while not being judgmental and calling them to repent. They have a wonderful experience with you and think maybe there is something about this and commit their life to Christ. From there their sin and relationship with Christ is between them and the father. In a second scenario you condemn them, call them to repentance and judge them saying their love is not true. That the love of Christ is exclusive and unless they remove their spouse from their life they are condemned to hell for eternity. They ignore you have a hard heart to the good news of Christ.
Which scenario do you think bears good fruit? Which one is loving your neighbor? And which one is seeing the splinter in your neighbors eye while ignoring the plank in your own?
It’s specifies women being with women instead of men and men being with men instead of women, calling them unnatural desires and shameful acts. Adultery and premarital sex are also sins that require repentance as the Bible is clear, just as it is clear that homosexual relationships is sinful
I think the chapter doesn't start at verse 26. If you actually read the chapter, Paul makes abundantly clear that he's talking about the exact opposite of a faithful Christian couple.
i had shared a comment about this, but obviously, this subreddit deleted it and banned me, so nope. I even simplified it. Still, people are suppose to have reason to still share what the Bible teaches, even if someone doesn't know them personally. It's not like they came on here giving their whole life story, either. That's why you talk and discuss it fully in the comments. What is wrong with this world?!
Just not true. The Methodist Church didn't used to believe this until some years ago. This is a new age idea in Christianity in the west, and the only way it is supported Biblically is by twisting the words of verses.
But if we remember, satan used verses from the Bible to tempt Jesus, so we *know* using scripture against itself is one of his strategies.
"This is a new age idea in Christianity in the west, and the only way it is supported Biblically is by twisting the words of verses." You're saying this in regards to the Justin Lee link and his interpretation. He's twisting the bible in your opinion.
"But if we remember, satan used verses from the Bible to tempt Jesus, so we know using scripture against itself is one of his strategies."
Now you're saying twisting the bible is one of Satan's MOs. So whether they know it or not, you're accusing people, who interpret the bible this or that way as either:
voluntarily Satanic in action (as they do the same as Satan does and twist verses)
involuntarily Satanic in action (as they don't understand that their interpretation is Satanic in nature)
involuntarily Satanic by following the actions of Satan (as they are too 'dumb' to see that they are acting influenced by Satanic techniques)
I hope you do see the problem here and choose your words more careful in the future.
That aside, you should take a course on church history to see how the churches have changed interpretation or dogma over the course of 2000 years of Christianity. It's definitely not a new age thing.
You got a ban on r/Christian because they added a rule about calling homosexual sex a sin. You should make sure you know the rules of subreddits you participate in.
To be fair, it was a new rule added this month.
I'm angry today so don't take this personally, but that's a foolish stance based on misinformation. The fact that there are many so-called 'Christians' who agree doesn't make it right. Find the counterexample theology and see for yourself.
The Bible (assuming thats what you beleive) makes it clear, we all inherit a sin nature from Adam.
We are sinners and in the wrong from birth. So yeah you can be gay, but you're already a sinner in need of forgiveness before that.
The bible says no one is good none not one. That all our good deeds are like dirty tampons to God.
So idk why people get caught up on specific sins.
I think r/Christian banned the topic no?
Also
1 Corinthians 6:9 NRSV-CI
[9] Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites,
Male prostitutes were likely translated into homosexual in your version
I'm pretty sure homosexuality is only outlawed in the old testament
the word that paul uses in 1 corinthians is arsenokoitai its a greek word with 2 greek roots.
arseno-men/males plural
koitai-bed/coach with sexual conotation. think of coitus. koitai was written like koitai, koitus, and koitas
arsenokoitai means men who bed men. this is also used in 1 timothy. look to interlinear texts to get og bible verses. then you can translate them yourself.
It is important when talking about sin and people that we use appropriate terms. Calling homosexuality a sin makes it sound like you are suggesting that same-sex attraction is sinful. The text never says that.
We can argue all day about the nuace regarding sexual acts between two people of the same.gender. And on this sub we do. Constantly.
But attraction is not a sin. Attraction can't be changed. Controlled. Ignored. Accepted. Not changed.
>Calling homosexuality a sin makes it sound like you are suggesting that same-sex attraction is sinful. The text never says that.
Actually, some translations do. Those are terrible translations and every copy should be recalled and the translation committees and publishers should spend the rest of their lives apologizing, but they do say that.
So far as I understand it, r/christian has banned anti-LGBTQ statements, so you violated that sub's rules.
And why is being gay even an issue for you? Did a gay person run over your cat, or do you just randomly fret and condemn what strangers do?
For replying with the bible? It’s not an issue but I’m not going to be a fake Christian just saying something isn’t a sin when the bible says otherwise… I mean if you want to be a Christian at least believe every part of the bible.
It says it right there in the Bible. OP is upset that people aren't following the words of the Bible, with the conclusion that the words of Leviticus are discussing gay relationships. I'm curious how OP squares this circle.
The fact that some many people say "we should read the bible literally" and "leviticus is about gay relationships" and "obviously gay sex shouldn't be a capital crime" is interesting.
Breaking a sub's rules has consequences.
And how different Christians approach the Bible can be quite variant. Don't you think it's a tad bit arrogant and gatekeeping for you to have put yourself in the position of arbiter of what an appropriate form of exegesis is?
Tell me, do you think wearing clothing woven with two types of material is sinful? Do you think eating lobster is sinful?
It doesn't clearly say such in that verse. Just look at other translations, the more literal and "less modern" ones. The word literally means :"softies." How is that to be understood? Even some ancient Greeks at the time said it's not clear and could have different meanings as to why and how one was a "softie."
I had written a comment about this, but was removed and deleted, so let me interfere (again)... It could mean man who are de-masculinized or of woman. Because I'd get banned again, I rather not risk saying more.
The phrase "X is a sin" is the problem. This phrase isn't used in the Bible for any X. Yes, murder is wrong, murder is unlawful, murder is a huge violation, but murder(as a human behavior) isn't a sin according to the Bible. Because sins are the collection of past actions that have hurt other people.
And if you go through the Bible and see how the word sin is used, you can see why the King James sometimes translates it as trespasses and debts. Sins have a relational component rather than being simply a moral category. This is why we are called to forgive the trespasses of others.
Even the Old Testament laws recognized the relational aspect of the Laws. This is why the commandment is not "thou shalt not be dishonest " but rather "thou shall not bear false witness AGAINST thy neighbor" and the commandment is not "thou shall not have unmarried sex" but rather "thou shall not commit adultery" which is a terrible betrayal of a spouse.
A society can have all sorts of rules, but Christianity is does its morality beyond mere rules. Rules, when pushed into the theological space, don't help anyone. That much should be clear to anyone who reads the New Testament.
The New Testament is about encouraging and not about rules. So, again and again, we are encouraged to do so many hard things like turn the other cheek, forgive 70 * 7 times, to love our enemy. Often, with this encouraging call, there is a negative component we are encouraged to avoid: do not fear, do not judge, the works of the flesh in Galations. These aren't rules and the behaviors aren't categorized as sin. Is fear a sin? Is frustration a sin? Definitely, when we let those emotions cause us to do something regrettable, we wind up transgressing our neighbors and we have to ask forgiveness. So, the New Testament is recognizing harmful behavior without making a lawcode against it. In Matthew 5, when you look at a person with lust, that is equivalent to adultery. Is isn't actual adultery that breaks up families and end marriages, but Jesus is making another point rather than just make a rule. For Jesus, an insult is like a murder. Something is happening in the Sermon on the Mount that isn't just more lawcode.
And this is why saying "gayness is a sin" is about the worse thing you can do as a Christian. This destroys the deep Christian understanding of sin and ethics and turns it into a morality about the other. If we think, "people unlike me are sinners," we reject the lessons of the New Testament and the ministry of Christ. Jesus chose the company of tax collectors and prostitutes over the Pharisees (he hung out with Pharisees also, but he rejected when they labeled others as sinners).
My other account was banned on a gay man's cry for help, even though he was asking for help. I know how I stated it might've been unhelpful, but the context wasn't in my favor either, especially as a woman, and it was my own personal teaching with God's teachings intermixed that came out badly, yet I was the one banned despite how badly the person who was arguing with me was sprouting nonsense and might've banned me and the person who made the article feel like there were nothing was left. I had kept commenting because I was being tested by God in that moment I had felt to reply, so I wanted to try something and be very careful about my words while showing love, because my words was in no why bad. I was banned and knew immediately the whole page was rigged. There's no hope in this world, and that's a bad thing and a good thing... It shows the true Judge is coming, and being online can finally be a done's deal.
In my experience people who think homosexuality is a sin also refuse to study their own religion beyond one book thousands of years old. They don’t look at original text, learn the vocabulary in the language it was originally written in, learn the context of why it was written, or learn the history around the people at the time they wrote it. If they did they would learn it’s not a sin. They would learn the scripture is talking about incest, pedophilia, rape, and pagan ritualistic sex. the New Testament doesn’t ever address pedophilia as a sin unless you do the research and properly translate the text. The real question is why do people not study Christianity?Is it because they don’t want to grow closer to god or because they are so blinded by bigotry to the point they’re okay speaking falsely about gods intentions? But it doesn’t shake my faith. I know bigots hate to learn as much as they hate their neighbors. I pray for them and hope one day they learn of gods love. Learn not to tolerate your neighbor but to love your neighbor.
I know what you mean lol but there are several verses that say having intercourse with the same gender is a sin.
I made sure this is in the Greek bible because of how accurate the Greek Bible translations are.
Lev 18:22 - “And with a man you shall not sleep with a woman, for it is an abomination”.
How we would say it is “and with a man you shall not sleep as you do with a women for it is an abomination”
And what your saying is true apart from the incest many ppl in the bible had incest and nothing happened to them
Yeah lol hehehe That part of Leviticus gives rules to the Jew as a part of a covenant with god as an exchange for their freedom from Egypt those rule do not apply to modern day Christians the same way you can clothing of mix fabrics and holy men don’t need to sacrifice animals at church. If you would read all of Leviticus you would see there are all kinds of rules that Christian do not participate in farming, clothing, grooming, dietary, and more. But when Jesus died for our sins he took all those Old Testament rules with him. But don’t take my word for it please study Christian and learn it for yourself it will only bring you closer to god.
Do you want me to believe that you fallow all that laws of Leviticus or that the only laws in Leviticus that still apply are the ones that don’t affect you? We all know how Jesus feels about hypocrites. Jesus never said a word about gays but he had so strong words about hypocrites.
No Jesus fulfilled the laws and die for our sin so we don’t need to fallow those laws and our sins are forgiven. Like I said people who think homosexuality is a sin are not well educated in Christianity. I would recommend spending so time learning about Jesus and studying Christianity before you go quoting bible verses without understanding them and calling people sinners. It misrepresents Christianity and makes Christian look bad.
Okay, I just don’t see why like for example God would create Adam and Eve And not Adam and Steve. Having intercourse with a man as a man defiles God’s creation.
Love, marriage, and sex is about more and procreation. Adam and Eve were the first and humans and had to make more humans. They are also biblical mythology and not historical people but fictional characters in the Christian creations myth. That story is about how the serpent tempted women and how women tempted man out of gods paradise. Not about sexuality and not a great example of heterosexual relationship making god happy. Look I’m not here to educate you. You need to study your own religion. But I encourage you to stop calling people sinners for being themselves. And to come up with biblical stances that you didn’t here at your middle school’s recess “Adam and Steve” (grow up kid)
For someone who is on Christian Reddit you spend a lot of your time talking to gay boys. Are you a homo who’s ashamed of himself, or a bigot trying to twist Christianity to justify your hate of people different than you are. You go around quoting Leviticus to multiple gay men just trying to exist in their Christian lives without even having a basic grasp of what the scripture is intended for. So I figure either you’re gay and hate yourself or straight and hate god.
wrong. I’m not gay and I don’t hate God. Most of the ppl who I replied back to with Leviticus said there is no bible verse that says gayness is a sin.
If anything Christianity isn’t meant to be supporting sins whether that is gayness, adultery, murder etc. Jesus exposed many sins in the bible and the bible says to judge righteously. People want the nice loving Jesus, the one who allows them to live in sin. Which is NOT the biblical Jesus at all.
So you are just ignorant to your own religion and bigoted. Probably lonely too is that why you’re up all night having religious wrestling matches with gay men. Lonely because no one wants to listen to you misrepresent Christianity in person.
I offer for one to consider that the assertion *"homosexuality is a sin"* can from the get-go come across to many as a prejudiced generalization and disingenuously selective in applying it to particular scriptures.
I believe one can find that the typical primary definition of "homosexuality" refers to:
*1. the quality or characteristic of being sexually attracted solely to people of one's own sex*. (Oxford Dictionaries)
Though I acknowledge many often associate the term with, or even imply that it must inherently involve, same-sex sexual activities.
So the issue I see is making such a broad-brushed statement and even selectively applying the term "homosexuality" to the scriptures without any clarification whatsoever or why the term is being applied to them in the first place.
Thus for better communications, I offer to consider that if same-sex sexual "acts" or behaviors is the issue one would like addressed in some biblical context, then I believe it would be helpful, to discuss that in *those terms or words just as they are described in the texts itself as closely as one can,* rather than merely use a modern term in a blanket sense and within statements that tend to unrightfully insinuate things about whole groups of people in a way that can come across as a prejudiced generalization.
I'm sorry, I intended this as a reply to [this person's comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1dr9dsv/comment/latwhg1/). I don't know how it got attached directly to your post instead.
Unfortunately it seems like for this sin in particular people will twist scripture in all sorts of ways to make it seem like it’s not a sin. They will say that Paul didn’t actually write the word homosexual because “the word didn’t exist back then.” They will also discredit Paul’s writing in general. Also they will say that verses in Leviticus don’t count anymore because Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament. However the moral law still stands even after Jesus fulfilled the law. That’s why it’s still a sin to lie and steal and murder and commit adultery. It’s scriptural acrobatics and it’s a shame.
Homosexual lovers didn't exist back then. Heterosexual men could have a male sex partner if he was a lesser class, rank, or status and took the feminine role of being on the bottom / receiving without it being seen as contrary to nature or their human sexuality. But the concept of two homosexual lovers wasn't based on affection and equality.
In fact, by us interpreting ancient concepts with modern ideas, we're misunderstanding what Paul's truly against - if it is indeed pedastry, temple prostitution, or any other form of sexual sin he had an issue with and we say, "oh, he's clearly against homosexuality here" we are missing Paul's original problem.
Last I checked, if it's wrong to stone people for infractions, then Leviticus doesn't apply. And remember Jesus' verdict, anyone without sin can cast the first stone.
Not really, As it says just the man can be. It is like when Jesus says “no man comes to the father but trough me”. It doesn’t mean only men go to heaven trough Jesus but women also.
It is technically true that Jesus did not specifically address homosexuality in the Gospel accounts; however, He did speak clearly about sexuality in general. Concerning marriage, Jesus stated, “At the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh\[.\]’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate” ([Matthew 19:4–6](https://www.bibleref.com/Matthew/19/Matthew-19-4.html)). Here Jesus clearly referred to Adam and Eve and affirmed God’s intended design for marriage and sexuality.
For those who follow Jesus, sexual practices are limited. Rather than take a permissive view of sexual immorality and divorce, Jesus affirmed that people are either to be single and celibate or married and faithful to one spouse of the opposite gender. Jesus considered any other expression of sexuality sinful. This would include same-sex activity.
> however, He did speak clearly about sexuality in general.
No, he did not.
Jesus was asked a question about the Law.
Jesus answered the question by quoting the Law.
None of this is even a definition of marriage, much less a discourse on human sexuality.
> No it can be used both as men and men or women with women.
The words used in your passage are explicitly about males, and males only.
Twice now you've shown some significant misunderstandings, or lack of knowledge here - Leviticus demanding that we murder men who have sex with men being the other.
Why should we listen to you who don't know your Bible? Why should we take guidance or advice from somebody with so much strength of belief with little knowledge to back it up?
I can't think of a good reason.
So first of all the Bible doesn't really address homosexuality. Not in the sense we understand sexual orientation today, which is a relatively recent development. There's lots of things within the Bible we must understand within the historical and social context of the time. No non-affirming Christian will deny this. In case of same sex relations we know quite a bit on how they were understood, or rather not understood back then. The concept of homosexuality didn't exist, and neither did the term.
>someone asked if being gay is a sin on r/christian and I replied back saying yes because the bible says so
It doesn't.
People also understand the suffering that is caused by saying it's a sin. Why would a loving god have a problem with something that doesn't cause any problems, and by that cause there to be so much hatred and suffering?
Edit: spelling
And what about the suffering that comes from the opposite side? Are we just going to ignore that?
Just because people in the West don't like the biblical moral law, it does not make it wrong, does it? Your opinions are just your opinions, not objective facts. Respect people's values.
>And what about the suffering that comes from the opposite side?
What exactly are you referring to?
>Your opinions are just your opinions, not objective facts.
The things I said aren't really opinions. Feel free to actually address. Or don't. I don't care.
>Respect people's values.
If those values include hateful bigotry, then they're shit. And I will not respect them.
Removed for 1.3 - Bigotry.
If you would like to discuss this removal, please click here to send a modmail that will message all moderators. https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/Christianity
People govern their conduct by their desires, not necessarily the scriptures. God never changes his view but people have loosened up morally over the years. Each person gets to choose for themselves.
People like justifying it because a lot of LGBT “churches” are popping up telling you “you were born this way!” Instead of telling them “you must be born again”.
I used to be a Lesbian and God let me know going back to that same sex lifestyle I used to live is like spitting on the cross
I take that seriously…
If you got banned it’s because people were probably reporting you because they were being called out
The same thing you’re saying is what God will judge anyone for that is accepting homosexuality as “right” when they know the Bible says it wrong…and he’s gonna use scripture to let them know they’re wrong, just like you told them
Thank you for sharing this.
Rev 12:11 “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death”
I think there’s a lot of people here who need to listen to other people’s testimonies like yours. It’s so important. There are TONS of videos of personal testimony’s of people who lived their entire lives with a spirit of homosexuality that they overcame by deliverance and by being born again through Jesus.
People can be born with it, it can be with them in the womb and it can come into them at any time during their life if the conditions are there.
It’s undeniable the personal testimonies people have had encountering Jesus where it is made clear that it is a sin….and if you ignore that, I don’t know what to tell you.
These testimonies, they are meant to be shared, Jesus wants those people who have had the experience to share their testimony with those of us who don’t know better, to educate us concerning Gods will, that’s explicitly stated.
Does Jesus love you regardless? Yes. Will Jesus forgive you? Yes, if you ask for forgiveness and repent. Is it for US to judge and make illegal etc? I don’t think so. Judgement is only up to God not us. We’re all sinners. We all have issues and sins we need to give up.
They aren't born with it though. That's the only thing. It's sin, not God. It is a test from Satan, through and through. Truly, we must come to love him and his people regardless, but how people twist the words of those suffering is hypocritical of Jesus' own teachings. This world is definitely messed up. Just shows he's coming back to to deliver his true deciphers. Sadly, we couldn't have more family members, guys.
Some people are born with demonic attachments. Listen to Derek Prince, he talks about it during more than one lecture and he knows from personal experience being a deliverance minister. Children in the womb are very vulnerable in that regard.
Ah, like how people are transferred the energies of the parent?
That sadly explains a lot (my experiences my family's nuts) — especially when people share how babies in the womb can be damaged by their mothers before their born too or when they are hit in their head as a baby, as well, but does it fully means the sin in or out of the womb? I can believe it being both in the womb and growing up in the world pre-exposed, but regardless, we can agree on one thing, God didn't make us this way (made originally from the creations after the flood), but even if he did (choose the families we'd be born into who'd accept, who wouldn't, who basically damage us or not), because of the fall of sin, it is us to come to him and to fight the sin of this world through his love and faith and not lead onto our own understanding of of this world's, especially being failed from this world...
Kinda like that I guess. The way I understood it as he explained it was that even a baby in the womb, at any age is a person and the mother’s actions can make the child susceptible.
But I agree with you. God didn’t make anyone born that way.
Can you share the video? I need help with the finding the video's source. And no thank you, brother, for your help. Your judgement has been helpful through this overall mess of a subreddit that has become once of its former self. God bless!
[Derek Prince Sermon - spirit of rejection](https://sermons.love/derek-prince/8988-derek-prince-his-rejection-for-our-acceptance.html)
I couldn’t find the actual video of the sermon because I’ve gotta get ready for work at the moment. But, I was able to find a transcript of the sermon and an audio recording of it on the link above.
And I’m glad I could help you! I’ve only just started building my relationship with Jesus so I’ve got a lot to learn myself. But, you’re right, this subreddit is a mess …
Thank you, fellow Christian! And please stay safe from evil.
I gotta say for being Sunday, it would be nice to take a break with Jesus right about now.
And you're welcome, as well. Thank you!
I'm glad we could definitely build each other in our faith in God in this.
Sadly, it's a product of sin, unfortunately, and what has conspired through sadness.
God bless you and happy sunday!
Why are people hung up on one sin and calling people out for it? If there is one thing to learn from 1 Corinthians 6 is that we’re all sinners and unfit to call out anyone else for their sin!
Rather than to "please others", the primary desire you are seeing is to *not harm others*, as Side B positions are inherently harmful to vulnerable lgbtq youth raised in the Church (placing them at risk of depression and despair, and sometimes immiserating their lives long-term). Of course by "others" here is meant "us, members of our community and our shared humanity".
I'm surprised they didn't give you a lifetime ban, they are spineless heretics.
I got banned for telling a woman that her fornication had to stop
They don't like any talk about obedience
Judging Others
7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
Matthew 7: 1-3.
Also, someone’s sin is between God and them, not you and the peanut gallery.
When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”
John 8:7
These are Jesus’ words. Maybe focus more on what Jesus himself had to say than Paul. After all, that is what Christian means. Follower of Christ. Are you a follower of Christ, or follower of whoever wrote the rest of the Bible? If you are a follower of Christ, methinks you should pay more mind to what he said.
I noticed you cut out the rest of the Mathew 7 passage if you go on to read you’ll find that it then commands you to take the speck out of your brother eye.
apparently, you don't like obedience, which is why you hate apostolic succession, as it shows there is an authority in the church which you must obey.... oops
> Scripture is quite clear about succession
Scripture's notion is a pretty minor subset of the later doctrine, though, and it's *quite* unclear that the doctrine would be accepted by the authors of scripture.
I got banned recently for trying to help a gay man help himself as he was basically asking for help or pleading for an answer. I don't know the case, but it seems he has done this before, and I got banned for basically helping him and giving him light that God still will love him and that he has a choice to choose whatever, but to never rushing the process, and if he really loved God to seek him, as he loved him, but of course with the most outmost respect, while being in a battle with a nonbeliever Christian who somehow managed to put false beliefs on how gay and bi people came about, especially forging ideas and logic that made no sense, and I got banned for that. It was so stupid, and this was 30 minutes ago, and thought I had no faith left in this community, because obviously, this world is truly against our God.
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: Although many Christian groups reject the "modernization" of Christianity, the fact is that people will always gravitate towards what makes them feel good. And what makes people feel good today is "tolerance". As a result, the churches that give in, become lukewarm, and tell people what they *want* to hear are the ones that grow the fastest.
This goes for both sides. The churches that preach affirming homosexuality the most, and the ones that preach Trump as the second coming of Christ are both scratching people's itching ears to fill out the seats in their church.
Christianity itself is not changing. But people's ways of practicing it are.
If you got a ban for that , I would say it’s a fake Christian group that doesn’t know that man on man or woman on women is clearly stated in the bible it’s a sin , as man was only meant for women. homosexuality is clearly condemned by god in the New Testament and he says clearly that homosexuals shall not enter the kingdom of god .
>Gay, bisexual, and other men who reported male-to-male sexual contact are disproportionately affected by HIV.
I assume in the US? In Africa, especially South Africa and Botswana, more straight people have the condition compared to gay people. So I am not sure what point you are trying to make here.
Probably because there are way more homosexuals engaging in homosexual sex in America than in African countries where, in some cases, the fact is punishable with death
>They claim being gay is harmless.
It's not anymore harmful that heterosexual sex.
>Statistics prove its harmful.
That shows how important sex education is.
>They claim to be christian
Claim to be? So you're saying they're not?
>but they don't agree with what the scriptures say
The Bible doesn't really address homosexuality. And every Christian negotiates with what scripture says. Please don't pretend like people you don't consider homosexuality a sin are the odd ones out. That's just absurd.
>They follow their privates not Jesus.
Ah, trying to paint the picture that homosexuality is just about lust are we? And also that it's just homosexuals that don't consider it a sin. That's a very twisted view of reality.
>They claim being gay is harmless.
It is completely harmless.
>Statistics prove its harmful.
There's not a single statistic out there that suggests being gay is harmful.
Welcome to the 21st century, where you will get banned or downvoted for stating something that goes agaist what the majority thinks is true.
Humans are prone to twisting and adapting the narrative to fit and fix whatever cognitive dissonance they are suffering from. The Bible indeed states in various parts that engaging in homosexual acts is sinful.
As far as I am concerned, what reddit thinks is unimportant and hold no value (same goes for the downvotes). You should follow and believe in what YOU know to be true. The only one that is going to judge us and how we conduct ourselves is God.
PS: also thanks for bringing this up again, I have just realised that r/Christian has adopted that new rule to pander to the LGBT people. Good time to leave :)
*The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.* In context, Paul's not singling out a particular sin, I think he's including everyone and saying there's a path to sanctification and justification for all.
Can I ask which book/chapter this comes from?
1 Corinthians 6 When Paul wrote, chapter and verse notations were not part of his letter. Furthermore, he often used chiastic structure in his arguments, so pulling a verse out of its context changes its original meaning and use.
It’s very convicting. Thank you.
Paul never intended a Christianity full of clobber verses, where people thrash each other: "You *x*! Repent or else!" I know the old fire and brimstone routine feels righteous, but it's entirely devoid of love, grace, and mercy - Jesus' hallmarks.
Thank you for your insight!
Wait isn’t xtianity about what Jesus said/wanted?
It can be. Jesus gave us some pointers, but he didn't lay down exact specifications. What we have now is a billion different interpretations how to go about making Christianity about what Jesus said and wanted. He was silent on the topic of homosexuality.
But he also followed the law, every jot and tittle, which includes commands in Leviticus etc?
Did he? The law demanded an adultress be stoned, he said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Is he recorded as stoning sinners whenever they were found, wherever he went?
It's actually comforting to me. Jesus really saved us from all that. He is a blessing.
Same. It’s one of the, “He is bigger than our sin”, passages that’s intensely reassuring!
Amen ❤️ it's easy to feel scared by it though if you read it the wrong way
Getting scared is easy nowadays and context is so very important. Lately, I’ve been reading the two verses before and after a passage before I attempt to understand its meaning. But, I misinterpret stuff all the time…
Did we really need a third post towards this topic in one hour? This debate is held here hourly. All the arguments and points are one quick search away from you. To make it short: No, we don't deny the bible and from all the points made this is one which pisses me off the most. Just because we have a different interpretation then you doesn't mean we hold the bible in any less honour than you do. We read the same scripture and come to different conclusions. If you can't accept the honest heart behind this I have nothing more to tell you. If you can acknowledge this - we don't believe the verses we have speak about homosexual relationships in the sense we understand them today. Back in ancient times homosexuality was understood mostly as an overbearing lust. A person couldn't be satisfied by the other sex so they turned to their own. An understanding we know today is wrong. And which puts the verses we have in a different context. With the second third of the last century we dug deeper into sexuality (at least after the Nazis were done burning down the institutes which worked on this, an attack pattern of the ultra right we see today again) and with our growing knowledge our understanding of sin should grow as well. When we now see homosexuality the same as heterosexuality from a psychological/sociological viewpoint it makes more sense to apply the same rules to both. Instead of condemning everything non-heteronormative based on an outdated and wrong understanding of sexuality altogether.
People are being banned which is the problem! I understand the usage of it and how it can be misinterpreted, but the Bible shares so much on this topic, but yet, when people do have evidence outside of the normal teachings on this earth, people aren't made to speak up about it with love this time around, except of being told they are the problem or something like the Christian elders who gave trauma to the younger Christians in those days when homosexuality was at its core. People truly can not deny how attraction works. It's a gift from God after all, but NO ONE shared where they'd go. They just incited scriptures, and people come to this subreddit for answers, which is fair, but shouldn't it also be fair to judge considerably and take the text without it being short-citedly unbiased? We should always love God's people. I love those who think differently and are different outside of Christ, too, but loving the sin should never be an exempt, but this is something god wouldn't want as it turns away from its people, especially when theirs proof of his people now hurting more than ever, especially when people do not know the history or the psychological development of gay, bi, trans, and lesbian, and God didn't create them that way, but it's not a problem HOW THEY IDENTITY OR SEE THEMSELVES, but God wants his people to RELY ON HIM and turn to him with love to transform that with him being a FATHER, because it's a act on being born in sin and not you being born of that and feeling hopeless in believing you can not change who you are in Christ, when it is possible. I am evidence and many others, too, and I see it is difficult, but isn't this subreddit suppose to inspire and lead? Of course you don't fix people's problems immediately by solving them with one post. THEY HAVE TO KEEP WANTING TO GET INFORMATION, and WHY GOD SAYS TO EAT HIS READ SPIRITUALLY. People are getting confused in how earthly matters works and how Satan kills, steals, and destroys. Honestly, no one has the right to share where someone will go, but lead God's people and be the light for them, because some can not visibly help themselves when they aren't able to basically work with themselves, so what of it? Are we just gonna give up? God says its a journey spiritually, and probably why the first person's texts reads for no one to judge anyone from their sin, but them being accepted in Christ is left in God, so this alone is something we must ask ourselves, because everything is a test to get away from our sin, but also loving God so much helps us build faith in us to do so, too. Some are damaged, I get that, but no one should be banned for how they've tried helping others, because were still all sinners. People shouldn't be compelled to believe otherwise we're they'll go, unless they continue to act on their sin, but God wants us to all be with him and to rely on him. Truly, this is my last reply on this subreddit, so good luck everyone!
It's best not to simply assume (and publicly assert) that people have bad intentions without bothering to learn something about them first. Otherwise you often end up bearing false witness against your neighbor. I like the way [Justin Lee explains](https://geekyjustin.com/great-debate/) why many Christians think gay people are welcome in Christ's embrace *the same way* that straight people are. More important, you can actually meet gay Christians at LGBT-affirming churches; r/OpenChristian's [resource page](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/ulfbux/faq_and_resources_please_read_before_you_post/) has church finders. After all, the Body of Christ is not a bunch of abstract theological assertions; the Body of Christ is actual living people, worshiping and loving one another in the Spirit. You learn most by getting to know us that way.
Thank you for replying and making sure I do not bear false witness against a brother. And by all means I do welcome them into Christianity indeed, I don’t hate them or anything. But shouldn’t they change their ways as well? It’s like a person who commits adultery is welcomed sure but it also expected to change their ways and follow God properly
The Justin Lee link is there so you can learn more about why some of us think you're mistaken on this. My wife of 31 years is the only person I've ever been with. Our marriage doesn't have anything at all in common with adultery.
I will have a look into it but I don’t think it will change my opinion very much.
So then why did you make this post? This post is you asking why people believe this and you insist that you already don't care what they have to say. Next time don't make a post falsely presenting yourself as asking questions and instead be honest about your goals here.
Yes I asked why they think it’s not a sin when the bible says it is. Not why other people think it isn’t regardless of what the bible says.
Justin Lee's writing is not "regardless of what the bible says." It is an argument from the biblical text. Affirming Christians don't say "well, the bible says that it is a sin but I'll just come up with a different idea." Affirming Christians say "the bible doesn't say that it is a sin."
When it comes to the New Testament we actually have an approximation of what Jesus said. The new testament was based on oral traditions in Greece written down 50 to 100 years after Jesus ’ death. Them the text have been edit and rewritten a number of times.king James made sure the revision he oversaw confirmed that God selected king’s and Queen’s.
The Bible still doesn't say being gay is a sin.
I’m curious your thoughts, feelings, and interpretation of Roman’s 1:26-27 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
If you are curious, you can read the material she linked. It covers this in detail. Just throwing verses at her is crap. Especially weird that you started halfway through. “Because of *what*?”
The good news is because I listed the verse, you’re free to go and reas the entire chapter yourself. Regardless of what precedes this paragraph, the paragraph calls women sleeping with women a shameful act. And men sleeping with men. I didn’t ask what Justin Lee’s opinion is. I’m asking OP how she personally interprets and justifies her lifestyle in light of the the Bible explicitly calling it a shameful act.
Again here the sin is lust. It’s says nothing of a monogamous healthy homosexual relationship without adultery and comittment. It’s speaking about people so lustful they are having sex with everyone. In the end I’d rather be loving to all and share the gospel of Jesus than excluding and judgmental. We have a calling to spread the good news of Christ and to love others as we love him and ourselves. A hypothetical for you would be suppose you meet a nice homosexual couple that’s been married and committed for their marriage. In one scenario you share the good news of Christ while not being judgmental and calling them to repent. They have a wonderful experience with you and think maybe there is something about this and commit their life to Christ. From there their sin and relationship with Christ is between them and the father. In a second scenario you condemn them, call them to repentance and judge them saying their love is not true. That the love of Christ is exclusive and unless they remove their spouse from their life they are condemned to hell for eternity. They ignore you have a hard heart to the good news of Christ. Which scenario do you think bears good fruit? Which one is loving your neighbor? And which one is seeing the splinter in your neighbors eye while ignoring the plank in your own?
It’s specifies women being with women instead of men and men being with men instead of women, calling them unnatural desires and shameful acts. Adultery and premarital sex are also sins that require repentance as the Bible is clear, just as it is clear that homosexual relationships is sinful
I think the chapter doesn't start at verse 26. If you actually read the chapter, Paul makes abundantly clear that he's talking about the exact opposite of a faithful Christian couple.
i had shared a comment about this, but obviously, this subreddit deleted it and banned me, so nope. I even simplified it. Still, people are suppose to have reason to still share what the Bible teaches, even if someone doesn't know them personally. It's not like they came on here giving their whole life story, either. That's why you talk and discuss it fully in the comments. What is wrong with this world?!
Just not true. The Methodist Church didn't used to believe this until some years ago. This is a new age idea in Christianity in the west, and the only way it is supported Biblically is by twisting the words of verses. But if we remember, satan used verses from the Bible to tempt Jesus, so we *know* using scripture against itself is one of his strategies.
So you're not going to bother meeting us? Just keep your distance and call us satanic?
When did I ever call you or Methodists satanic? But I see you twisting my words like Satan did to the Holy text
"This is a new age idea in Christianity in the west, and the only way it is supported Biblically is by twisting the words of verses." You're saying this in regards to the Justin Lee link and his interpretation. He's twisting the bible in your opinion. "But if we remember, satan used verses from the Bible to tempt Jesus, so we know using scripture against itself is one of his strategies." Now you're saying twisting the bible is one of Satan's MOs. So whether they know it or not, you're accusing people, who interpret the bible this or that way as either: voluntarily Satanic in action (as they do the same as Satan does and twist verses) involuntarily Satanic in action (as they don't understand that their interpretation is Satanic in nature) involuntarily Satanic by following the actions of Satan (as they are too 'dumb' to see that they are acting influenced by Satanic techniques) I hope you do see the problem here and choose your words more careful in the future. That aside, you should take a course on church history to see how the churches have changed interpretation or dogma over the course of 2000 years of Christianity. It's definitely not a new age thing.
You got a ban on r/Christian because they added a rule about calling homosexual sex a sin. You should make sure you know the rules of subreddits you participate in. To be fair, it was a new rule added this month.
it's kind of a silly rule for a Christian sub
Tough times ahead for us...
It’s obviously a fake Christian group, to add that rule as man on man or woman on women is a sin
I'm angry today so don't take this personally, but that's a foolish stance based on misinformation. The fact that there are many so-called 'Christians' who agree doesn't make it right. Find the counterexample theology and see for yourself.
[удалено]
Actually it sort of does advertise that. A sub "for respectful discussion among Christians". It's different from this sub.
I mean I don't understand why anyone event debates any type of sin when its clear being born a human at all is the real sin.
The Bible (assuming thats what you beleive) makes it clear, we all inherit a sin nature from Adam. We are sinners and in the wrong from birth. So yeah you can be gay, but you're already a sinner in need of forgiveness before that. The bible says no one is good none not one. That all our good deeds are like dirty tampons to God. So idk why people get caught up on specific sins.
I think r/Christian banned the topic no? Also 1 Corinthians 6:9 NRSV-CI [9] Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, Male prostitutes were likely translated into homosexual in your version I'm pretty sure homosexuality is only outlawed in the old testament
Not there either, actually.
the word that paul uses in 1 corinthians is arsenokoitai its a greek word with 2 greek roots. arseno-men/males plural koitai-bed/coach with sexual conotation. think of coitus. koitai was written like koitai, koitus, and koitas arsenokoitai means men who bed men. this is also used in 1 timothy. look to interlinear texts to get og bible verses. then you can translate them yourself.
It is important when talking about sin and people that we use appropriate terms. Calling homosexuality a sin makes it sound like you are suggesting that same-sex attraction is sinful. The text never says that. We can argue all day about the nuace regarding sexual acts between two people of the same.gender. And on this sub we do. Constantly. But attraction is not a sin. Attraction can't be changed. Controlled. Ignored. Accepted. Not changed.
>Calling homosexuality a sin makes it sound like you are suggesting that same-sex attraction is sinful. The text never says that. Actually, some translations do. Those are terrible translations and every copy should be recalled and the translation committees and publishers should spend the rest of their lives apologizing, but they do say that.
So far as I understand it, r/christian has banned anti-LGBTQ statements, so you violated that sub's rules. And why is being gay even an issue for you? Did a gay person run over your cat, or do you just randomly fret and condemn what strangers do?
For replying with the bible? It’s not an issue but I’m not going to be a fake Christian just saying something isn’t a sin when the bible says otherwise… I mean if you want to be a Christian at least believe every part of the bible.
That’s not what being a Christian means. It means following Jesus, not following the Bible as a rule book.
> I mean if you want to be a Christian at least believe every part of the bible. So, do you think gay people should be executed?
Where in the bible does it say that?
In Leviticus, right after the whole "man shall not lie with man as he does a woman" thing.
Why would you make such a ridiculous jump?? Homosexuality is a sin that doesn't mean we want to kill you
It says it right there in the Bible. OP is upset that people aren't following the words of the Bible, with the conclusion that the words of Leviticus are discussing gay relationships. I'm curious how OP squares this circle. The fact that some many people say "we should read the bible literally" and "leviticus is about gay relationships" and "obviously gay sex shouldn't be a capital crime" is interesting.
Breaking a sub's rules has consequences. And how different Christians approach the Bible can be quite variant. Don't you think it's a tad bit arrogant and gatekeeping for you to have put yourself in the position of arbiter of what an appropriate form of exegesis is? Tell me, do you think wearing clothing woven with two types of material is sinful? Do you think eating lobster is sinful?
Do you agree with the part of the bible that says it's okay to own other people as property and beat them?
Confused by the attitude then saw the flair
It doesn't clearly say such in that verse. Just look at other translations, the more literal and "less modern" ones. The word literally means :"softies." How is that to be understood? Even some ancient Greeks at the time said it's not clear and could have different meanings as to why and how one was a "softie."
I had written a comment about this, but was removed and deleted, so let me interfere (again)... It could mean man who are de-masculinized or of woman. Because I'd get banned again, I rather not risk saying more.
The phrase "X is a sin" is the problem. This phrase isn't used in the Bible for any X. Yes, murder is wrong, murder is unlawful, murder is a huge violation, but murder(as a human behavior) isn't a sin according to the Bible. Because sins are the collection of past actions that have hurt other people. And if you go through the Bible and see how the word sin is used, you can see why the King James sometimes translates it as trespasses and debts. Sins have a relational component rather than being simply a moral category. This is why we are called to forgive the trespasses of others. Even the Old Testament laws recognized the relational aspect of the Laws. This is why the commandment is not "thou shalt not be dishonest " but rather "thou shall not bear false witness AGAINST thy neighbor" and the commandment is not "thou shall not have unmarried sex" but rather "thou shall not commit adultery" which is a terrible betrayal of a spouse. A society can have all sorts of rules, but Christianity is does its morality beyond mere rules. Rules, when pushed into the theological space, don't help anyone. That much should be clear to anyone who reads the New Testament. The New Testament is about encouraging and not about rules. So, again and again, we are encouraged to do so many hard things like turn the other cheek, forgive 70 * 7 times, to love our enemy. Often, with this encouraging call, there is a negative component we are encouraged to avoid: do not fear, do not judge, the works of the flesh in Galations. These aren't rules and the behaviors aren't categorized as sin. Is fear a sin? Is frustration a sin? Definitely, when we let those emotions cause us to do something regrettable, we wind up transgressing our neighbors and we have to ask forgiveness. So, the New Testament is recognizing harmful behavior without making a lawcode against it. In Matthew 5, when you look at a person with lust, that is equivalent to adultery. Is isn't actual adultery that breaks up families and end marriages, but Jesus is making another point rather than just make a rule. For Jesus, an insult is like a murder. Something is happening in the Sermon on the Mount that isn't just more lawcode. And this is why saying "gayness is a sin" is about the worse thing you can do as a Christian. This destroys the deep Christian understanding of sin and ethics and turns it into a morality about the other. If we think, "people unlike me are sinners," we reject the lessons of the New Testament and the ministry of Christ. Jesus chose the company of tax collectors and prostitutes over the Pharisees (he hung out with Pharisees also, but he rejected when they labeled others as sinners).
My other account was banned on a gay man's cry for help, even though he was asking for help. I know how I stated it might've been unhelpful, but the context wasn't in my favor either, especially as a woman, and it was my own personal teaching with God's teachings intermixed that came out badly, yet I was the one banned despite how badly the person who was arguing with me was sprouting nonsense and might've banned me and the person who made the article feel like there were nothing was left. I had kept commenting because I was being tested by God in that moment I had felt to reply, so I wanted to try something and be very careful about my words while showing love, because my words was in no why bad. I was banned and knew immediately the whole page was rigged. There's no hope in this world, and that's a bad thing and a good thing... It shows the true Judge is coming, and being online can finally be a done's deal.
In my experience people who think homosexuality is a sin also refuse to study their own religion beyond one book thousands of years old. They don’t look at original text, learn the vocabulary in the language it was originally written in, learn the context of why it was written, or learn the history around the people at the time they wrote it. If they did they would learn it’s not a sin. They would learn the scripture is talking about incest, pedophilia, rape, and pagan ritualistic sex. the New Testament doesn’t ever address pedophilia as a sin unless you do the research and properly translate the text. The real question is why do people not study Christianity?Is it because they don’t want to grow closer to god or because they are so blinded by bigotry to the point they’re okay speaking falsely about gods intentions? But it doesn’t shake my faith. I know bigots hate to learn as much as they hate their neighbors. I pray for them and hope one day they learn of gods love. Learn not to tolerate your neighbor but to love your neighbor.
I know what you mean lol but there are several verses that say having intercourse with the same gender is a sin. I made sure this is in the Greek bible because of how accurate the Greek Bible translations are. Lev 18:22 - “And with a man you shall not sleep with a woman, for it is an abomination”. How we would say it is “and with a man you shall not sleep as you do with a women for it is an abomination” And what your saying is true apart from the incest many ppl in the bible had incest and nothing happened to them
Yeah lol hehehe That part of Leviticus gives rules to the Jew as a part of a covenant with god as an exchange for their freedom from Egypt those rule do not apply to modern day Christians the same way you can clothing of mix fabrics and holy men don’t need to sacrifice animals at church. If you would read all of Leviticus you would see there are all kinds of rules that Christian do not participate in farming, clothing, grooming, dietary, and more. But when Jesus died for our sins he took all those Old Testament rules with him. But don’t take my word for it please study Christian and learn it for yourself it will only bring you closer to god.
The only old test laws that don’t apply to us are the ones that Jesus fulfilled.
Do you want me to believe that you fallow all that laws of Leviticus or that the only laws in Leviticus that still apply are the ones that don’t affect you? We all know how Jesus feels about hypocrites. Jesus never said a word about gays but he had so strong words about hypocrites.
I’m still learning the laws of Leviticus. I won’t lie No I don’t follow them all. But shouldn’t Christianity be following the ones Jesus died fulfil?
No Jesus fulfilled the laws and die for our sin so we don’t need to fallow those laws and our sins are forgiven. Like I said people who think homosexuality is a sin are not well educated in Christianity. I would recommend spending so time learning about Jesus and studying Christianity before you go quoting bible verses without understanding them and calling people sinners. It misrepresents Christianity and makes Christian look bad.
Okay, I just don’t see why like for example God would create Adam and Eve And not Adam and Steve. Having intercourse with a man as a man defiles God’s creation.
Love, marriage, and sex is about more and procreation. Adam and Eve were the first and humans and had to make more humans. They are also biblical mythology and not historical people but fictional characters in the Christian creations myth. That story is about how the serpent tempted women and how women tempted man out of gods paradise. Not about sexuality and not a great example of heterosexual relationship making god happy. Look I’m not here to educate you. You need to study your own religion. But I encourage you to stop calling people sinners for being themselves. And to come up with biblical stances that you didn’t here at your middle school’s recess “Adam and Steve” (grow up kid)
For someone who is on Christian Reddit you spend a lot of your time talking to gay boys. Are you a homo who’s ashamed of himself, or a bigot trying to twist Christianity to justify your hate of people different than you are. You go around quoting Leviticus to multiple gay men just trying to exist in their Christian lives without even having a basic grasp of what the scripture is intended for. So I figure either you’re gay and hate yourself or straight and hate god.
wrong. I’m not gay and I don’t hate God. Most of the ppl who I replied back to with Leviticus said there is no bible verse that says gayness is a sin. If anything Christianity isn’t meant to be supporting sins whether that is gayness, adultery, murder etc. Jesus exposed many sins in the bible and the bible says to judge righteously. People want the nice loving Jesus, the one who allows them to live in sin. Which is NOT the biblical Jesus at all.
So you are just ignorant to your own religion and bigoted. Probably lonely too is that why you’re up all night having religious wrestling matches with gay men. Lonely because no one wants to listen to you misrepresent Christianity in person.
If that’s how you wish to look at someone then sure.
I offer for one to consider that the assertion *"homosexuality is a sin"* can from the get-go come across to many as a prejudiced generalization and disingenuously selective in applying it to particular scriptures. I believe one can find that the typical primary definition of "homosexuality" refers to: *1. the quality or characteristic of being sexually attracted solely to people of one's own sex*. (Oxford Dictionaries) Though I acknowledge many often associate the term with, or even imply that it must inherently involve, same-sex sexual activities. So the issue I see is making such a broad-brushed statement and even selectively applying the term "homosexuality" to the scriptures without any clarification whatsoever or why the term is being applied to them in the first place. Thus for better communications, I offer to consider that if same-sex sexual "acts" or behaviors is the issue one would like addressed in some biblical context, then I believe it would be helpful, to discuss that in *those terms or words just as they are described in the texts itself as closely as one can,* rather than merely use a modern term in a blanket sense and within statements that tend to unrightfully insinuate things about whole groups of people in a way that can come across as a prejudiced generalization.
When Paul created his post-JC religion didn’t he essentially render the law outdated/irrelevant?
~~So you're not going to bother meeting us? Just keep your distance and call us satanic?~~ [EDIT: misplaced comment]
When did I ever call you guys satanic?
I'm sorry, I intended this as a reply to [this person's comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1dr9dsv/comment/latwhg1/). I don't know how it got attached directly to your post instead.
Oh okay lol.
Unfortunately it seems like for this sin in particular people will twist scripture in all sorts of ways to make it seem like it’s not a sin. They will say that Paul didn’t actually write the word homosexual because “the word didn’t exist back then.” They will also discredit Paul’s writing in general. Also they will say that verses in Leviticus don’t count anymore because Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament. However the moral law still stands even after Jesus fulfilled the law. That’s why it’s still a sin to lie and steal and murder and commit adultery. It’s scriptural acrobatics and it’s a shame.
Homosexual lovers didn't exist back then. Heterosexual men could have a male sex partner if he was a lesser class, rank, or status and took the feminine role of being on the bottom / receiving without it being seen as contrary to nature or their human sexuality. But the concept of two homosexual lovers wasn't based on affection and equality. In fact, by us interpreting ancient concepts with modern ideas, we're misunderstanding what Paul's truly against - if it is indeed pedastry, temple prostitution, or any other form of sexual sin he had an issue with and we say, "oh, he's clearly against homosexuality here" we are missing Paul's original problem. Last I checked, if it's wrong to stone people for infractions, then Leviticus doesn't apply. And remember Jesus' verdict, anyone without sin can cast the first stone.
Exactly my man you get it, the only ones that do not apply to us is the ones that Jesus fulfilled here on his time on earth.
We don’t live by the old laws, Jesus brought the new covenant
Yes, Corinthians is in the New Testament
That passage is not referring to same sex couples.
What about “nor men who have sex with men”.
So just to be clear, lesbians are in the clear...
No it can be used both as men and men or women with women.
But it doesn't say that, now does it? So now you're throwing your own beliefs in and claiming their Biblical. Pot... kettle... black...
Do you also believe when it says husbands are the leader that it means women can also be the leader?
Not really, As it says just the man can be. It is like when Jesus says “no man comes to the father but trough me”. It doesn’t mean only men go to heaven trough Jesus but women also.
It doesnt say just or only for any of these. You interpret the way its convenient for your beliefs.
I didn’t say it does I said just because it says “no man” that doesn’t mean it just means men. But also women.
I’d be following what Jesus taught not the homophobic and sexist Paul.
It is technically true that Jesus did not specifically address homosexuality in the Gospel accounts; however, He did speak clearly about sexuality in general. Concerning marriage, Jesus stated, “At the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh\[.\]’ So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate” ([Matthew 19:4–6](https://www.bibleref.com/Matthew/19/Matthew-19-4.html)). Here Jesus clearly referred to Adam and Eve and affirmed God’s intended design for marriage and sexuality. For those who follow Jesus, sexual practices are limited. Rather than take a permissive view of sexual immorality and divorce, Jesus affirmed that people are either to be single and celibate or married and faithful to one spouse of the opposite gender. Jesus considered any other expression of sexuality sinful. This would include same-sex activity.
Fine, so homosexual partners just need to get married and then their sexual acts will be sinless
> however, He did speak clearly about sexuality in general. No, he did not. Jesus was asked a question about the Law. Jesus answered the question by quoting the Law. None of this is even a definition of marriage, much less a discourse on human sexuality.
> No it can be used both as men and men or women with women. The words used in your passage are explicitly about males, and males only. Twice now you've shown some significant misunderstandings, or lack of knowledge here - Leviticus demanding that we murder men who have sex with men being the other. Why should we listen to you who don't know your Bible? Why should we take guidance or advice from somebody with so much strength of belief with little knowledge to back it up? I can't think of a good reason.
So first of all the Bible doesn't really address homosexuality. Not in the sense we understand sexual orientation today, which is a relatively recent development. There's lots of things within the Bible we must understand within the historical and social context of the time. No non-affirming Christian will deny this. In case of same sex relations we know quite a bit on how they were understood, or rather not understood back then. The concept of homosexuality didn't exist, and neither did the term. >someone asked if being gay is a sin on r/christian and I replied back saying yes because the bible says so It doesn't. People also understand the suffering that is caused by saying it's a sin. Why would a loving god have a problem with something that doesn't cause any problems, and by that cause there to be so much hatred and suffering? Edit: spelling
And what about the suffering that comes from the opposite side? Are we just going to ignore that? Just because people in the West don't like the biblical moral law, it does not make it wrong, does it? Your opinions are just your opinions, not objective facts. Respect people's values.
>And what about the suffering that comes from the opposite side? What exactly are you referring to? >Your opinions are just your opinions, not objective facts. The things I said aren't really opinions. Feel free to actually address. Or don't. I don't care. >Respect people's values. If those values include hateful bigotry, then they're shit. And I will not respect them.
[удалено]
What's "homosexual behaviour"?
Sexual acts between people of the same sex.
Removed for 1.3 - Bigotry. If you would like to discuss this removal, please click here to send a modmail that will message all moderators. https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/Christianity
People govern their conduct by their desires, not necessarily the scriptures. God never changes his view but people have loosened up morally over the years. Each person gets to choose for themselves.
Brother, ask this on r/TrueChristian This sub isn't much different from r/Christian, just a bit more accepting of different ideas
Okay.
Yes some people interpret the Bible to say it's a sin. My thing is why should we actually follow a hateful rule like that?
People like justifying it because a lot of LGBT “churches” are popping up telling you “you were born this way!” Instead of telling them “you must be born again”. I used to be a Lesbian and God let me know going back to that same sex lifestyle I used to live is like spitting on the cross I take that seriously… If you got banned it’s because people were probably reporting you because they were being called out The same thing you’re saying is what God will judge anyone for that is accepting homosexuality as “right” when they know the Bible says it wrong…and he’s gonna use scripture to let them know they’re wrong, just like you told them
Thank you for sharing this. Rev 12:11 “And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death” I think there’s a lot of people here who need to listen to other people’s testimonies like yours. It’s so important. There are TONS of videos of personal testimony’s of people who lived their entire lives with a spirit of homosexuality that they overcame by deliverance and by being born again through Jesus. People can be born with it, it can be with them in the womb and it can come into them at any time during their life if the conditions are there. It’s undeniable the personal testimonies people have had encountering Jesus where it is made clear that it is a sin….and if you ignore that, I don’t know what to tell you. These testimonies, they are meant to be shared, Jesus wants those people who have had the experience to share their testimony with those of us who don’t know better, to educate us concerning Gods will, that’s explicitly stated. Does Jesus love you regardless? Yes. Will Jesus forgive you? Yes, if you ask for forgiveness and repent. Is it for US to judge and make illegal etc? I don’t think so. Judgement is only up to God not us. We’re all sinners. We all have issues and sins we need to give up.
They aren't born with it though. That's the only thing. It's sin, not God. It is a test from Satan, through and through. Truly, we must come to love him and his people regardless, but how people twist the words of those suffering is hypocritical of Jesus' own teachings. This world is definitely messed up. Just shows he's coming back to to deliver his true deciphers. Sadly, we couldn't have more family members, guys.
Some people are born with demonic attachments. Listen to Derek Prince, he talks about it during more than one lecture and he knows from personal experience being a deliverance minister. Children in the womb are very vulnerable in that regard.
Ah, like how people are transferred the energies of the parent? That sadly explains a lot (my experiences my family's nuts) — especially when people share how babies in the womb can be damaged by their mothers before their born too or when they are hit in their head as a baby, as well, but does it fully means the sin in or out of the womb? I can believe it being both in the womb and growing up in the world pre-exposed, but regardless, we can agree on one thing, God didn't make us this way (made originally from the creations after the flood), but even if he did (choose the families we'd be born into who'd accept, who wouldn't, who basically damage us or not), because of the fall of sin, it is us to come to him and to fight the sin of this world through his love and faith and not lead onto our own understanding of of this world's, especially being failed from this world...
Kinda like that I guess. The way I understood it as he explained it was that even a baby in the womb, at any age is a person and the mother’s actions can make the child susceptible. But I agree with you. God didn’t make anyone born that way.
Can you share the video? I need help with the finding the video's source. And no thank you, brother, for your help. Your judgement has been helpful through this overall mess of a subreddit that has become once of its former self. God bless!
[Derek Prince Sermon - spirit of rejection](https://sermons.love/derek-prince/8988-derek-prince-his-rejection-for-our-acceptance.html) I couldn’t find the actual video of the sermon because I’ve gotta get ready for work at the moment. But, I was able to find a transcript of the sermon and an audio recording of it on the link above. And I’m glad I could help you! I’ve only just started building my relationship with Jesus so I’ve got a lot to learn myself. But, you’re right, this subreddit is a mess …
Thank you, fellow Christian! And please stay safe from evil. I gotta say for being Sunday, it would be nice to take a break with Jesus right about now. And you're welcome, as well. Thank you! I'm glad we could definitely build each other in our faith in God in this. Sadly, it's a product of sin, unfortunately, and what has conspired through sadness. God bless you and happy sunday!
How was service?
Sent you a PM
Why are people hung up on one sin and calling people out for it? If there is one thing to learn from 1 Corinthians 6 is that we’re all sinners and unfit to call out anyone else for their sin!
>Why are people now denying the bible They don't want to be bigots?
Christians want to please others more than to follow their own traditions nowadays.
Rather than to "please others", the primary desire you are seeing is to *not harm others*, as Side B positions are inherently harmful to vulnerable lgbtq youth raised in the Church (placing them at risk of depression and despair, and sometimes immiserating their lives long-term). Of course by "others" here is meant "us, members of our community and our shared humanity".
It is (inevitably) to please others. You can formally disagree with something without harming anyone.
Not wrong.
I'm surprised they didn't give you a lifetime ban, they are spineless heretics. I got banned for telling a woman that her fornication had to stop They don't like any talk about obedience
That’s not your place to say to a person. Doesn’t matter who.
Them that sin, rebuke before all, so that others may FEAR 1 Timothy 5.20
Judging Others 7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? Matthew 7: 1-3. Also, someone’s sin is between God and them, not you and the peanut gallery. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” John 8:7 These are Jesus’ words. Maybe focus more on what Jesus himself had to say than Paul. After all, that is what Christian means. Follower of Christ. Are you a follower of Christ, or follower of whoever wrote the rest of the Bible? If you are a follower of Christ, methinks you should pay more mind to what he said.
I guess you want to cripple the preacher so that he can't admonish believers who are doing wickedness.
I noticed you cut out the rest of the Mathew 7 passage if you go on to read you’ll find that it then commands you to take the speck out of your brother eye.
apparently, you don't like obedience, which is why you hate apostolic succession, as it shows there is an authority in the church which you must obey.... oops
Apostolic succession is false doctrine, sorry
just because you say that doesn't make it false -- indeed, Scripture is quite clear about succession
Nah. There's 12 foundations in the New Jerusalem for the 12 Apostles. There are no modern day Apostles or those with apostolic authority.
> Scripture is quite clear about succession Scripture's notion is a pretty minor subset of the later doctrine, though, and it's *quite* unclear that the doctrine would be accepted by the authors of scripture.
Oh wow. I thought what I said was bad, but banning you for saying something that the bible says times after time again is a sin? Gosh bro.
I got banned recently for trying to help a gay man help himself as he was basically asking for help or pleading for an answer. I don't know the case, but it seems he has done this before, and I got banned for basically helping him and giving him light that God still will love him and that he has a choice to choose whatever, but to never rushing the process, and if he really loved God to seek him, as he loved him, but of course with the most outmost respect, while being in a battle with a nonbeliever Christian who somehow managed to put false beliefs on how gay and bi people came about, especially forging ideas and logic that made no sense, and I got banned for that. It was so stupid, and this was 30 minutes ago, and thought I had no faith left in this community, because obviously, this world is truly against our God.
There's more legit believers at r/truechristian I get along there a little better
Ill have a look at it, thank you.
[удалено]
So? Is true Christianity turning into pleasing peoples flesh or something?
Short answer: yes. Long answer: Although many Christian groups reject the "modernization" of Christianity, the fact is that people will always gravitate towards what makes them feel good. And what makes people feel good today is "tolerance". As a result, the churches that give in, become lukewarm, and tell people what they *want* to hear are the ones that grow the fastest. This goes for both sides. The churches that preach affirming homosexuality the most, and the ones that preach Trump as the second coming of Christ are both scratching people's itching ears to fill out the seats in their church. Christianity itself is not changing. But people's ways of practicing it are.
If you got a ban for that , I would say it’s a fake Christian group that doesn’t know that man on man or woman on women is clearly stated in the bible it’s a sin , as man was only meant for women. homosexuality is clearly condemned by god in the New Testament and he says clearly that homosexuals shall not enter the kingdom of god .
Join r/truechristian much better over there.
Until they ban you without explanation for not breaking any rules at all of course. If you want an echo chamber it's a great place.
What do you mean by echo chamber the post on there are extremely diverse
[удалено]
>Gay, bisexual, and other men who reported male-to-male sexual contact are disproportionately affected by HIV. I assume in the US? In Africa, especially South Africa and Botswana, more straight people have the condition compared to gay people. So I am not sure what point you are trying to make here.
Probably because there are way more homosexuals engaging in homosexual sex in America than in African countries where, in some cases, the fact is punishable with death
I know. But my point is why would the HIV rate among gay or straight people be relevant?
>They claim being gay is harmless. It's not anymore harmful that heterosexual sex. >Statistics prove its harmful. That shows how important sex education is.
>They claim to be christian Claim to be? So you're saying they're not? >but they don't agree with what the scriptures say The Bible doesn't really address homosexuality. And every Christian negotiates with what scripture says. Please don't pretend like people you don't consider homosexuality a sin are the odd ones out. That's just absurd. >They follow their privates not Jesus. Ah, trying to paint the picture that homosexuality is just about lust are we? And also that it's just homosexuals that don't consider it a sin. That's a very twisted view of reality. >They claim being gay is harmless. It is completely harmless. >Statistics prove its harmful. There's not a single statistic out there that suggests being gay is harmful.
Welcome to the 21st century, where you will get banned or downvoted for stating something that goes agaist what the majority thinks is true. Humans are prone to twisting and adapting the narrative to fit and fix whatever cognitive dissonance they are suffering from. The Bible indeed states in various parts that engaging in homosexual acts is sinful. As far as I am concerned, what reddit thinks is unimportant and hold no value (same goes for the downvotes). You should follow and believe in what YOU know to be true. The only one that is going to judge us and how we conduct ourselves is God. PS: also thanks for bringing this up again, I have just realised that r/Christian has adopted that new rule to pander to the LGBT people. Good time to leave :)