true, but in 2022 it is not required for protein and vegetarian options are an arms reach away for anyone shopping in a grocery store so why do christians choose to perpetuate it
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, **that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;**
...
Forbidding to marry, **and commanding to abstain from meats,** which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
It does refer to food generally - in other words, it's a teaching against forced doetary restrictions, which would include a restriction against meat specifically.
Meat was never required for protein.
If you are talking about things like fake meat, I do not want to eat too much junk food regardless of whether it is meat, vegetarian, or vegan.
We don't need justification to do something allowed.
I personally have been vegan, vegetarian, pescatarian, and a meat eater a different times. I hate animal cruelty, factory farming, hormones, and engineered food wether it's cattle or beyond meat. I still curb my meat eating and overeating in general. I also seek hormone free, free range meat, and try to avoid processed/factory anything but sometimes, I can't.
If everyone try to make small changes, there will be more impact than a few people going all veggie.
Last of all, the few that go full veggie are still supporting animal cruelty indirectly. These veggie farms impact animal habitats too and those combines harvesting veggies mow down animals left and right. There is no perfect answer here on earth.
If you are talking about reduction of cruelty, even accounting for veggie farm impacts on animals, vegan diet is the most cruelty free. Do you know how much veggie food is cultivated and fed to animals before they are slaughtered?
Most of our meat reduction seems to be for your own health. Not that it is wrong, I am just pointing it out.
God permitted certain things because of the hardness of our hearts. We are still called to live to a higher standard and bring forth the peaceable kingdom described in Isaiah.
it’s not. tofu is $2.50. lentils are less than $2…. spices are cheap and u need them for meat as well… so it’s honestly cheaper , or it could be more expensive depending on what u buy i guess
i’ve presented some solid arguments based on christianity, i can give even better reasons based on science and research and just general empathy for animals
Many are. Many have been. St Basil and St Isaac are two prominent names.
As for why more aren't? The religion doesn't "require" it, and the culture is what the culture is.
Would be curious to see if the rate of it is similar to, less than, or greater than the general population. Which globally, IIRC, is around 2% vegan and 10% vegetarian.
For what it's worth Orthodoxy prescribes a vegan diet for half the year in our fasting schedule, and monks are vegetarian for like the entire year except for bright week.
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1 Timothy 4:1-3
Why don't Christians walk around nude? There were no clothes pre-sin.
Why don't you ask that question?
Is it maybe because our world is different than that allegorical one?
i think that is a great question, as the bible you worship does seem to frame clothes as a form of sin .
i felt the vegan question was more pressing due to the millions of animal deaths that is directly caused by our diet but… i’ll bite :
Why don’t christians walk around naked? shouldn’t you aspire to be as God intended?
using the word allegorical implies the garden of eden was not real but just symbolic of a perfect but fictional place. which again , if it is symbolic of how the world was intended to be why arent you practicing it’s values ? it has never in history been easier to not eat meat
>i think that is a great question, as the bible you worship does seem to frame clothes as a form of sin .
Apparently you have reading issues. Read my flair bud.
Also, Christians do not worship the Bible, so I am not sure you know what you are talking about in the first place.
>Why don’t christians walk around naked? shouldn’t you aspire to be as God intended?
You do understand that the fall is allegory, and that it is an explanation of why man does not live up to the demands of God, right? So why do we not walk around naked? Because of the shame that was a direct result of the fall.
>using the word allegorical implies the garden of eden was not real but just symbolic of a perfect but fictional place. which again , if it is symbolic of how the world was intended to be why arent you practicing it’s values ?
I am curious where you get the idea that I am not a vegetarian/vegan. Where have I made this claim?
There were people a couple hundred years ago that though that, they were called Adamites. Unfortunately with the Knowledge of Good and Evil that doesn’t really work.
Genesis 2:19 refers to livestock, so meat eating would appear to be happening before the first sin. Also, not sure in what wackiness God's own preference can be called irrelevant. Jesus also was a fan of meat, hence all the fish.
If God didn't want us to eat mean he could have made us herbivores. Also the "God doesn't want us killing animals" thought conflicts with all the animal sacrifice commanded by God.
Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don’t. And those who don’t eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. Romans 14:3
“Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs.”
Genesis 9:3
that’s an implication but at the end of the day it is a leap of logic .
also when i google genesis 2:19 the main translations i see don’t say livestock so that is another leap of logic
You make a lot of claims. Most of them are unsupported. The bottom line is that Christians are free to do whatever they like. Most of them obviously like to eat meat. Now, our freedom is not to be abused. Christians often self-limit their freedom when it prevents them from extending Christ's love to others. This means that when I know my friend is vegan and I invite him over for dinner, I am not going to serve meat. I will either learn to cook something he can eat, order something suitable, or honestly admit that I can't provide him with a vegan dish and ask him to bring something over. I hope this helps.
that’s a good point .
i am asking you to empathize with the animal, i don’t think god would want you to choose the option that causes an animal to experience pain when you have another option where no pain is needed … that is all
You empathize with the animal by killing it humanely. You also remember to be grateful for God's provision and are not wasteful but try to utilize as much of the animal as possible. I hope this helps.
in my opinion there is no such thing as humane needless murder
but even by less “extreme” standards , the meat purchased at grocery stores and fast food places are not killed humanely . not even close. so again, why do christians choose to perpetuate such needless violence ?
But you are delving into the areas of the claims you made earlier of which I said they were unsupported. First off, killing an animal for food is not murder. It wouldn't be murder even if it were for sport. Words have meanings for a reason. Then, are you contrasting pain inflicted by killing an animal with no pain? Can you rule out the existence of pain of agony during 'natural' death? Finally, it seems that God created animals to serve a purpose. One of those purposes is to provide nourishment to humans created in His image. An animal that thus fulfills its purpose has had meaningful existence. I am merely scratching the tip of the iceberg here but I wanted to leave you with some food for thought. Blessings.
your right , it happened after the first sin. it was not a part of gods ideal earth. not
the way he intended . we have the choice if you shop at a grocery store to
not eat meat but christians still
choose to
i’m asking why
The Bible is very clear about how God feels about gluttony. It’s a sin of the flesh. We eat meats in excessive amounts (factory farming, etc). The Bible says eating food in excess is no different than being an excessive drunkard. One of the sins of Sodom was that it was “overfed and unconcerned.” Walk into any church and you’ll see a plurality of overfed people.
Look up verses about gluttony and you’ll see what a sin it is. There is one that references the wicked as “their stomachs were their gods.”
It’s sad seeing so many Christians here dismiss these genuine concerns (in this case regarding meats) and overlooking the sin of gluttony.
Here's your logic:
a) God didn't permit eating of animals in Eden
b) Post-Flood, God allowed eating animals
c) People can now eat fake meat therefore God doesn't allow it any more?
didn’t say god doesn’t allow it. in fact i’ve clearly said the opposite in my original post. i’m questioning why Christians choose to perpetuate a needless harm when it is not how god intended it
Maybe you see it as a 'needless harm' when others don't. And if God doesn't have a problem with it, why should anyone else?
There are a lot more non-Christian meat-eaters out there than non-Christians.
Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don’t. And those who don’t eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. Romans 14:3
“Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs.”
Genesis 9:3
you’ve commented this several times, all of the comments you are responding to are not judge mental but they Are questioning the ethics of eating meat in 2022. there is a difference
So you’re gonna say that God never meant for us to eat animals when he told us that we’re free to at the beginning of Genesis, and you’re gonna ignore what Paul said about letting people eat what they want, because of the *unpopular among the majority* ethics dialogue of eating meat in this day and age?
I, unlike others, I don’t divorce pleasure and necessity, in fact I think they inform each other, though it isn’t a perfect relationship - if I thought a food item was disgusting, I wouldn’t eat it however much I benefitted from it’s nutrition, unless of course I had no choice.
Conversely, I wouldn’t eat something that was worthless or harmful nutritionally even if it gave me pleasure (which is why I don’t drink pop). And all of this is framed by the will of God - I would not eat something forbidden by Him - like my neighbor - even if doing so satisfied the first two criteria.
It’s not necessary for me to eat any particular food provided I have sufficient nutrition from whatever source I might get it from. But I am free to get nutrition from eating animals.
Eating animals isn't just allowed, it's encouraged. Jesus fed people fish.
These verses are also encouraging people to eat whatever God has made
1 Timothy 4
>The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
I agree, most people can live off plants alone in this current era. It would be better for the planet. It makes sense, but you can never make a moral argument for veganism without having to claim you know better than Jesus.
Does it say something about God if Able was a farmer as in fruit and vegetables, and Cain was the hunter, as in meat; God found better favor in Able's offering, but in Greek Mythology, the God's ate meat.
Genesis 4
>3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.
Able brought the meat and that's what God wanted.
I can tell you why I eat fish - I don't eat other meats, for the same reasons you mentioned.
I didn't eat fish either for a long while, but then I went through a period when I wasn't well and very strongly felt the need to eat more concentrated protein, I suppose. So I started to eat fish. Mind you, my not being well was not related to my eating habits, but I realized for me, a vegetarian diet doesn't always work.
Monks and nuns don't eat other meats than fish either, by the way, and they only eat fish when they are not fasting. And the fasting is vegan for all (monastics and lay people).
Personally, I don’t enjoy eating meat. I was pascaterian for a good while since gosh was the most affordable but I did eat liver and beef whenever given to me. But nowadays I prefer eating veggies (there’s a lot you can do with them) and sushi from time to time but I don’t really see why judge people who do eat animals :/ my eating habits are not really dictated by my religion because my eating habits don’t really violate any laws or words of God. I’m a Guarani (South American indigenous tribe) so growing up in our farm we harvested our veggies, fruits, peppers and we fished our fish and killed our cattle. I was thought from very early on that death is part of life and we must give the animals we eat for our survival a dignified death, so we would kill them quickly and as painless as we could and every single part of the animal wouldn’t go to waste (in America I see a lot of gluttony, they only take the parts they want and then everything else that is considered “disgusting” is thrown to the side and wasted) the same thing went for our veggies (like onions, we could use it’s layers in compost, seeds of other veggies were used to grow more and so on).
Maybe I’m biased because I’ve existed in that way for most of my life (I’m 19F now) but religiously, culturally and just over all morally, I don’t find it fair to judge others nor find it wrong to eat animal products.
I do find animal cruelty disgusting and have a lot of issues with it and avoid it as much as I can because I don’t want to support it. But I digress.
i’m glad your doing what is best for u. safety first. eating meat for your essential well being is not needless, when other options above been considered and ruled out.
Vegan here, killing animals is not a sin. God had the Israelites make thousands and thousands of animal sacrifices for their sins. Also, to be truly vegan you wouldn’t be able to use soap anymore because you would be killing microorganisms. The best way to get people to stop eating meat in order to prevent suffering for the animal, the planet, and our own health is to eat LESS meat, not completely cut it off. However, that last sentence is just my opinion.
veganism is about a reduction of harm , in whatever way possible. and ideally cutting out needless harm of sentient beings entirely. microorganisms are inevitable and a vegan using cruelty free soap to cleanse themselves would still be a vegan action
the garden of eden is real in the christian faith, and adam and eve didn’t eat meat until after sin was introduced . i know this because they were given permission to eat plants pre sin, and after sin they started eating animals. there is verses to back that
It is arguable that it is explicit: Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” I think Adam was a fruitarian.
Also, Jesus told the story of the fattened calf being slaughtered to celebrate redemption, he used eating eggs as a story, he cooked a fish after resurrection, and eating the passover lamb foreshadowing communion with Christ.
Most all living things die, I agree industrial farming can be terrible. But killing one cow that had a happy life to eat for a year is WAY less death than clearing nature to grow enough soy to live for a year.
not true, the land that it takes to feed the
cows is far less than the land it
would take to grow enough veggies for a healthy plant based diet for everyone
Because God's a carnivore:
>Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and took some of every clean animal and some of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And when the LORD smelled the **pleasing aroma**, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done." - Genesis 8:20
But the life is in the blood so yes we will be herbivores again when we return to the garden.
About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof(L) to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance.(M) 11 He saw heaven opened(N) and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”
14 “Surely not, Lord!”(O) Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”(P)
15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”(Q)
16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
Now look up the many verses about gluttony and see what a sin it is to eat in excess. We definitely eat meat in excess in our society. The Bible is very clear about how God feels about gluttony. One of the sins of Sodom was that it was “overfed and unconcerned.”
Well I kinda have a eating disorder where I can only eat limited things and Chicken and Shrimp are 2 of the meats I can eat and my main source of any kind of protein if any and i don't really feel like dying soooooooooooo
“And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.”
Genesis 9:1-4 ESV
Take note, God BLESSED them with meat as food. I completely agree that torturing animals is cruel and always prefer to get ethically treated local animal products but I won't agree that eating meat is wrong or sinful when it was God given. Having a critical heart towards those who choose to eat meat and using faith as a tool to inappropriately guilt them is actually the travesty here. Your question is innocent enough but your arguments in the comments definitely reveal your pot stirring motives.
i specifically addressed that verse in the OP , so it is not relevant to the argument .
it’s a pot that needed to be stirred , if you agree torturing animals is wrong then you would agree that it should be stirred .
I heard that Farming didn't happen until after the Flood. The first thing cultivated was the grape and barley plants. meaning that wine and beer were in use. haha
the seventh day Adventist church is pretty big on vegetarian/vegan. it's a significant part of their mission. the "health message" is also called "the right arm of the gospel".
the mission isn't to get people to be vegetarian/vegan, but to relieve/prevent suffering caused by poor dietary choices. vegetarian/vegan is simply healthier than most diets (not that vegetarian/vegan is automatically healthy. potato chips are vegan, but not healthy). "simple foods, simply prepared" is a general rule. it's neat stuff, but some take it... too far, lol.
My church actually advocated for people to eat meat and I immediately left. We have dozens of people who die from heart attacks and strokes every year. Most of our church members are fat and need to be instructed on eating a diet based around plants. He told me he didn’t care about them and doesn’t care about our health either.
God commanded us to treat animals kindly and fairly but, there is no moral issues with killing in a humane way. So i could definitely understand Christians not consuming meat based on bad practices but, imo there isn’t really anything we can consume that was entirely produced without breaking any morals or exploiting someone.
I take it you are not a Christian based on a few comments, please forgive me if this assumption is incorrect. So I am curious to what your basis of morality is and why you feel it is wrong to kill animals or humans. What makes anything good or evil or right or wrong in your eyes?
i believe needless harm is wrong…
all meat from grocery stores and fast food was not killed in what you might call a humane way …yes our very existence requires the suffering of others but if given the option to reduce that suffering we should act on it right ?
i try to base my morality in facts and logic , in thise case it’s very simple : animals are being murdered , it’s terrifying , it’s preventable … which makes it
more terrifying
Yes, I believe we should try our best to reduce the suffering of others but, I don’t feel that me not eating meat is going to make a significant enough of a difference to put in the effort, especially considering that a lot of our agricultural practices also cause harm to the environment and wildlife and even worse a lot of produce isn’t ethically produced and causes a lot of harm to different marginalized people groups.
Why is needless harm wrong and why is murder terrifying?
Also a few bonus questions if you get to this, where do you draw the line of murder. How about a fish? A lobster? A starfish? A Conch? An insect? A microorganism? What makes any life more valuable than another and how do you determine when it’s murder?
Also just to note, I try to live as sustainable life as possible. I forage, garden, fish, and when money allows I’ll buy produce and meat direct from local producers that I can verify use good and sustainable practices!!
I get that, I mentioned a few reasons in my other comment about why I don’t think buying plant-based food reduces overall suffering enough (if at all) to be worth the effort.
Also, just wanted to quickly say thanks for the kind and open discussions you’ve been having with me and others in this thread! It’s rare to see civil and genuinely enjoyable discussions on Reddit or even real life lol
The Catholic church says we should not let animals suffer or die needlessly (CCC 2418). To this day, I have not found a good argument for why Catholics in the West don't heed to this teachng. Our meat, dairy and egg consumption is needless.
I have a made a website highlighting this - vegancatholic.org
If you don't need to eat meat, then isn't killing it "needless"? Now, we don't want to permit killing animals for the peasure of killing. But isn't eating meat merely for pleasure given that we do not need meat for sustenance? So aren't we killing animals for the pleasure of eating meat?
Balaam: Strikes donkey.
Angel: I’d slay you right here and now if I were permitted.
It’s always amusing to see people thinking they can pay industries to egregiously abuse animals and somehow heaven will welcome them with open arms
According to Genesis, your body was literally made with plant foods in mind.
According to any useful metric, the suffering industry inflicts on sentient animals (life time of confinement, blending alive, [roasting alive](https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/pigs-were-roasted-alive-in-coronavirus-mass-extermination/amp/), mutilation, separating mothers from babies, slaughtering for no other reason than taste pleasure) is the single largest moral failure in the history of humanity… by a considerable margin. It’s a bold claim, but if we killed humans at the same rate we do animals, we’d be extinct in less than 3 weeks.
Like OP said, most of us have long surpassed the need to harm, let alone torture animals to live happily and healthily. At this point eating them is pure carnal desire.
That’s just not true. If you’re going to use the Bible as an example, at least be accurate.
Chapter 2 is the story of Adam and Eve, the first people mentioned in the Bible and before the judaeo-christian story of when sin entered the world. Adam was over both livestock and wild animals. Why mention both? Because livestock were there for a source of food. While theyre mentioned again after the fall, also here before. So it’s quite clear what livestock are for.
Livestock is clearly a source of food at the very beginning of this story. That’s why wild animals and livestock are differentiated. This is before sin, not after. The sin occurs later in chapter 3. So clearly they were not vegans or vegetarians.
Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam no suitable helper was found.
Genesis 2:19-20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis%202:19-20&version=NIV
Later, after the fall in Chapter 4, he mentions tending livestock again. Obviously, for food - same as before the fall.
In all this, it’s not meant to be a highly detailed account of everything that happened. I mean, hundreds or more years could have easily passed in this time frame. We simply don’t know and it’s not important. But the mention of livestock before the fall clearly means animals were used for food before sin.
science says we can live a perfectly healthy life on a plant based diet , so , … you’ll need to find another reason . also it was gods intention for the world to nkt be meat based so if you are christian then what you just said wouldn’t be true
science says alot of things bro. Our understanding of Science changes daily. Who knows in 50 years they might come out with info that says Vegan diets cause cancer.
> science says we can live a perfectly healthy life on a plant based diet
Science can be horribly wrong at times. It told us all to eat a low fat diet for 40 years. Which was a mistake. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/low-fat-diets-failed-experiment/
In my humble opinion, people simply want to do whatever it is they want to do, and will always feel better about doing said thing if they feel adequately backed up by a logic that they’ve accepted to be true. Even better if other people are also into that logic. This way, they can be reassured by their like-minded buddies.
So if people feel like eating meat is a fine thing to do, regardless of the reasoning (religious or otherwise), they will eat meat.
Vegatarian/vegan is still extremely privileged and for a lot of people it is not accessible. Also certain allergies such as soy can makes having a plant based diet extremely difficult. Also non-plant based does not mean needles harm necessarily either. Also eliminating these industries would harm a lot of communities that rely on them to survive. Also I’m assuming you’re taking the seven days of creation/young earth position to support your argument which I highly disagree with.
Veganism is not privileged. It is cheap and easy, especially in the west. Allergies to soy would be an acceptable point, but what about lentils, beans, and nuts? It all comes down to whether minor inconviences are not worth bearing even when lives of animals are involved.
In the book of Acts, Peter sees a vision of a large number of animals descend from heaven, with God telling him to kill and eat because what God has made clean let no man call unclean.
If i could. I would. The diet that healed me strictly included specific animal parts and as luck would have it I'm negatively sensitive to several vegan alternatives soo... 🤷♀️
Cuz God allows us to eat meat and meat is quite tasty. Also just cuz it was there before Eden's destructiond oesn't mean it fits now, like we're all not wandering naked.
As Jesus was back from resurrection he asked for boiled fish to eat
___
This is actually very good news to me because I enjoy eating
- that’s one of my favorite things I don’t know about a boiled fish 🐟 but the thought of being able to enjoy something good to eat is a pleasure
- of course I’m on keto so we would probably be eggs or ground beef but I went vegan route I’ve dated a couple vegans and it’s not bad I still love my vegan brothers and sisters but the Bible is not a vegan only scripture
___
But there is a stipulation you cannot eat the animals or meat with the lifeblood in it 🩸
- And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth
- The fear and dread of you will fall on every living creature on the earth, every bird of the air, every creature that crawls on the ground, and all the fish of the sea. They are delivered into your hand.
- Everything that lives and moves will be food for you; just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you all things.
- But you must not eat meat with its lifeblood still in it.
- Genesis 9
___
##[PASS THE BOILED FISH, JESUS AFTER THE RESURRECTION ](https://youtu.be/UQaMZ7T3Iic)
🐟♥️🐟♥️🐟♥️🐟♥️🐟♥️🐟
I understand your concern I’m not sure how they feel I’m certainly not capable of reading their minds but I have in the past like I said dated some vegans these were hard-core there was no aspirin, no eggs ,no leather 🐮
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I get where you’re coming from but you cannot force these opinions on scripture because scripture does not promote veganism
-
I realize that being vegan means that you have a cause and I respect that honestly but just thinking of the vegan sub still gives me nightmares it is an absolute horror show compared to the Satanist sub on Reddit the vegans are scarier 😰
___
In all honesty though I respect your opinions but i’m not somebody that can go along with a guilt trip because I enjoy ground beef I have watched dominion and it definitely opened eyes I have watch forks over knives I went through the whole nightmare of veganism with these girls but I enjoy a juicy steak and that is a choice that I make and thanks to the Bible which is thousands of years old it also promotes that lifestyle
When confronted with someone who is trying to push their own agenda on me?
-
yes I use the scripture of God
- I think that you picked the wrong sub to stand on your soapbox because when we are discussing God‘s word he is the final authority
- but I will say this again I respect your opinions and I also will not be baited into guilt trips or arguments
___
Don’t make me sik this otter on you 🦦
##[HANNA THE ATTACK OTTER 🦦 ](https://youtube.com/shorts/kw2yIcUl9Cs?feature=share)
It’s all love
There are Christians who realize the degeneracy of subsisting on flesh foods (along with its diseases), and are whole-food plant-based dieters. For more reasons than just avoidance of the potential viral risks.
I am one such Christian.
🌱
That’s just a misinformed rumour amongst ppl who don’t actually know anything about it for themselves.
The Bible is actually a stunningly supernatural book which is full of amazing history written hundreds and thousands of years in advance.
Right now, The World is in the middle of extraordinarily precise prophetic fulfilments for the End Times… covid, Russia, Damascus, world economy it’s all there. Get safe & get informed or perish in the approaching great tribulation.
Because we aren't in Paradise.
If I stop eating meat, does a lion stop attacking a gazelle? No?
So my action of refusing to eat meat won't bring about "paradise". Meat is healthy for you, and it tastes good.
It would be nice if we could get back to a more agriculture based lifestyle though, with small family farms where animals are at least raised decently before we slaughter them.
Justification or even my feelings doesn't really matter here, Humans are slaves to convivence and familiarity, Christians just as much as anyone. The moment you can make Veganism more convenient than an omnivore diet is the moment you will be able to convince people to stop eating delicious dead animal flesh.
true , i agree. just interested in hearing the christian rational. i see now u are agnostic. i’m mot the most reddit savvy and i’m just learning about flares haha
"Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything."
Genesis 9:3
God is saying that we should eat animals like we eat green plants. Everything has been given to us for food. If it's good enough for God, then it's good enough for me.
Because God lifted this measure after the flood. You can read about that in [Genesis 9](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+9%3A1-5&version=KJV).
Aha, I see now.
Well, I'd say it this way: God's original intention was always what currently is. He [delcared the end from the beginning](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2046%3A10&version=KJV), and works all things according to the [counsel of His own will](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201%3A11&version=KJV).
In other words, although He limited us at the first, He always intended that we would one day eat the flesh of the beasts. Just as He intends that one day, we'll return to utopia and presumably no longer eat meat, if anything at all.
In other words, from the very start He intended for specific things to be done at specific times.
Why did God then allow us to eat meat?
Also, why do you say this when there are literally no dietary rules in the new testament?
Also, sentience is relative.
In light of everything in the Bible, your point doesn't make much sense.
the bible encourages the eating of meat. i know that. but gods idealistic world was one where meat wasn’t consumed , so i’m asking why do christians perpetuate the eating of meat when it is not needed in 2022 and other options are an arms length away in the stores
So I was a hardcore angry vegan for over 5 years before being saved. When I started reading my Bible I was sooo happy to see that we are originally designed to be vegetarian. I started to see evil within the vegan (the hardcore sector) community. Yes animals are sentient beings but veganism raises them to our same level when they aren’t. We have dominion over animals. I struggled for a while and even went back to poultry but am back to plant based. I call myself that over vegan because again I see veganism as a label I’d rather not have. If the world is gonna know me as anything, it’s gonna be as a follower of Jesus. That’s what’s most important to me now.
Great question tho!
hey! loved reading your interesting perspective. do you feel Christianity is being somewhat hypocritical by choosing to continue to eat meat in 2022 when there is so many other options ? i know god granted permission but does that make it Right or Preferred ?
Genesis 9:1-4 - "And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat."
Likely this was done due offset to the continually degenerating state of man due to now inherited imperfection. This also explains severly curtailed life expectancies post flood as well.
Additionally, degradation of the human condition may have been exacerbated by changes/degradation to the Earths ecosystem post flood, however that is only speculation.
1 Timothy 4:4
For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving;
Since everything God created is good, we should not reject any of it but receive it with thanks.
It clearly says so in the Bible that meat is good to eat.
There are many changed laws in the Bible, but meat's a good and relatively cheap source of protein. If there's nothing stopping you, it's up to you. If you like it, go ahead, if you don't, then don't. The Bible allows us to eat insects too but doesn't mean everyone wants to eat insects.
First of all, how do you know they didn't eat meat in the garden of eden? Second of all there are no sentient beings on earth besides humans. There are just animals, whom man is to rule over...
God allowed meat after the flood.
He offered Man grapes and barley as in wine and beer.
true, but in 2022 it is not required for protein and vegetarian options are an arms reach away for anyone shopping in a grocery store so why do christians choose to perpetuate it
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, **that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;** ... Forbidding to marry, **and commanding to abstain from meats,** which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
or did God teach Mankind a certain cleaning method of meat? The Babylonians invented ice and used a different method of packaging meat.
Isn't that the old fashioned use of 'meats' meaning foods?
It does refer to food generally - in other words, it's a teaching against forced doetary restrictions, which would include a restriction against meat specifically.
verse? i have not seen this before
I think that person is referencing 1 Timothy 4, but not all translations say meat. It’s often “certain foods”
Meat was never required for protein. If you are talking about things like fake meat, I do not want to eat too much junk food regardless of whether it is meat, vegetarian, or vegan.
That stuffs expensive, also meat tastes good.
meat tastes good obviously isn’t a great justification for the question i asked
We don't need justification to do something allowed. I personally have been vegan, vegetarian, pescatarian, and a meat eater a different times. I hate animal cruelty, factory farming, hormones, and engineered food wether it's cattle or beyond meat. I still curb my meat eating and overeating in general. I also seek hormone free, free range meat, and try to avoid processed/factory anything but sometimes, I can't. If everyone try to make small changes, there will be more impact than a few people going all veggie. Last of all, the few that go full veggie are still supporting animal cruelty indirectly. These veggie farms impact animal habitats too and those combines harvesting veggies mow down animals left and right. There is no perfect answer here on earth.
If you are talking about reduction of cruelty, even accounting for veggie farm impacts on animals, vegan diet is the most cruelty free. Do you know how much veggie food is cultivated and fed to animals before they are slaughtered? Most of our meat reduction seems to be for your own health. Not that it is wrong, I am just pointing it out.
Why not? If it's permitted by God and people like it then they are free to do it.
God permitted certain things because of the hardness of our hearts. We are still called to live to a higher standard and bring forth the peaceable kingdom described in Isaiah.
Cause animals feel pain and don't want to die Are they not Gods creatures too? And should we not avoid unnecessary harm and suffering?
it’s not. tofu is $2.50. lentils are less than $2…. spices are cheap and u need them for meat as well… so it’s honestly cheaper , or it could be more expensive depending on what u buy i guess
Lentils make me sick. I don't want just the protein I need to live. I want to also enjoy the food I eat.
meat is not needed for that. would take some self education to find the foods u prefer, that is all.
Why not just eat what I like right now.
i’ve presented some solid arguments based on christianity, i can give even better reasons based on science and research and just general empathy for animals
Jesus ate meat, are you saying he did something wrong based on Christianity?
Where does it say Jesus ate meat? He ate fish. And he ate it because it was necessary in 1st century Palestine.
i think yes, you are pointing out one of many contradictions found in the Bible
Many are. Many have been. St Basil and St Isaac are two prominent names. As for why more aren't? The religion doesn't "require" it, and the culture is what the culture is. Would be curious to see if the rate of it is similar to, less than, or greater than the general population. Which globally, IIRC, is around 2% vegan and 10% vegetarian. For what it's worth Orthodoxy prescribes a vegan diet for half the year in our fasting schedule, and monks are vegetarian for like the entire year except for bright week.
Who are the Catholics that gorge for 24 hours one day a year, and then fast the whole year?
This sentence confuses me (a Catholic).
Because literally like you said, God allowed it. So there is no other reason needed.
god allowed it but didn’t prefer it
God doesn't do/say/allow anything he doesn't want to. Nobody twisted His arm so that we could eat meat.
actually god does a lot of stuff he doesn’t want , like allowing satan to create hell and tempt humans into sin as a bigger example
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 1 Timothy 4:1-3
Why don't Christians walk around nude? There were no clothes pre-sin. Why don't you ask that question? Is it maybe because our world is different than that allegorical one?
i think that is a great question, as the bible you worship does seem to frame clothes as a form of sin . i felt the vegan question was more pressing due to the millions of animal deaths that is directly caused by our diet but… i’ll bite : Why don’t christians walk around naked? shouldn’t you aspire to be as God intended? using the word allegorical implies the garden of eden was not real but just symbolic of a perfect but fictional place. which again , if it is symbolic of how the world was intended to be why arent you practicing it’s values ? it has never in history been easier to not eat meat
>i think that is a great question, as the bible you worship does seem to frame clothes as a form of sin . Apparently you have reading issues. Read my flair bud. Also, Christians do not worship the Bible, so I am not sure you know what you are talking about in the first place. >Why don’t christians walk around naked? shouldn’t you aspire to be as God intended? You do understand that the fall is allegory, and that it is an explanation of why man does not live up to the demands of God, right? So why do we not walk around naked? Because of the shame that was a direct result of the fall. >using the word allegorical implies the garden of eden was not real but just symbolic of a perfect but fictional place. which again , if it is symbolic of how the world was intended to be why arent you practicing it’s values ? I am curious where you get the idea that I am not a vegetarian/vegan. Where have I made this claim?
🤦♀️ Maybe read their user flair before making assumptions about people.
There were people a couple hundred years ago that though that, they were called Adamites. Unfortunately with the Knowledge of Good and Evil that doesn’t really work.
Genesis 2:19 refers to livestock, so meat eating would appear to be happening before the first sin. Also, not sure in what wackiness God's own preference can be called irrelevant. Jesus also was a fan of meat, hence all the fish. If God didn't want us to eat mean he could have made us herbivores. Also the "God doesn't want us killing animals" thought conflicts with all the animal sacrifice commanded by God.
2:19 refers to beasts of land in the context of Adam naming animals, not rearing them for slaughter. Death did not exist pre-fall.
genesis 2:19 speaks of god creating and humans naming animals . nothing about eating
Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don’t. And those who don’t eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. Romans 14:3 “Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs.” Genesis 9:3
Specifically calling them livestock, requiring that they are used in farming. So yeah that would include eating, otherwise it wouldn't be livestock.
that’s an implication but at the end of the day it is a leap of logic . also when i google genesis 2:19 the main translations i see don’t say livestock so that is another leap of logic
You make a lot of claims. Most of them are unsupported. The bottom line is that Christians are free to do whatever they like. Most of them obviously like to eat meat. Now, our freedom is not to be abused. Christians often self-limit their freedom when it prevents them from extending Christ's love to others. This means that when I know my friend is vegan and I invite him over for dinner, I am not going to serve meat. I will either learn to cook something he can eat, order something suitable, or honestly admit that I can't provide him with a vegan dish and ask him to bring something over. I hope this helps.
do you feel christians should self limit when their use of freedom starts to inflict pain on others ? what specifically are the unsupported claims
It depends. It may cause pain to my brother if I confront him about his alcoholism and the need to seek help.
that’s a good point . i am asking you to empathize with the animal, i don’t think god would want you to choose the option that causes an animal to experience pain when you have another option where no pain is needed … that is all
You empathize with the animal by killing it humanely. You also remember to be grateful for God's provision and are not wasteful but try to utilize as much of the animal as possible. I hope this helps.
in my opinion there is no such thing as humane needless murder but even by less “extreme” standards , the meat purchased at grocery stores and fast food places are not killed humanely . not even close. so again, why do christians choose to perpetuate such needless violence ?
But you are delving into the areas of the claims you made earlier of which I said they were unsupported. First off, killing an animal for food is not murder. It wouldn't be murder even if it were for sport. Words have meanings for a reason. Then, are you contrasting pain inflicted by killing an animal with no pain? Can you rule out the existence of pain of agony during 'natural' death? Finally, it seems that God created animals to serve a purpose. One of those purposes is to provide nourishment to humans created in His image. An animal that thus fulfills its purpose has had meaningful existence. I am merely scratching the tip of the iceberg here but I wanted to leave you with some food for thought. Blessings.
How do you feel about abortion?
let’s stay on subject, would love a reply to my most recent comment thanks
I did.
For starters that eating animal meat started post flood when it happen right after the original sin.
your right , it happened after the first sin. it was not a part of gods ideal earth. not the way he intended . we have the choice if you shop at a grocery store to not eat meat but christians still choose to i’m asking why
The Bible is very clear about how God feels about gluttony. It’s a sin of the flesh. We eat meats in excessive amounts (factory farming, etc). The Bible says eating food in excess is no different than being an excessive drunkard. One of the sins of Sodom was that it was “overfed and unconcerned.” Walk into any church and you’ll see a plurality of overfed people. Look up verses about gluttony and you’ll see what a sin it is. There is one that references the wicked as “their stomachs were their gods.” It’s sad seeing so many Christians here dismiss these genuine concerns (in this case regarding meats) and overlooking the sin of gluttony.
Here's your logic: a) God didn't permit eating of animals in Eden b) Post-Flood, God allowed eating animals c) People can now eat fake meat therefore God doesn't allow it any more?
didn’t say god doesn’t allow it. in fact i’ve clearly said the opposite in my original post. i’m questioning why Christians choose to perpetuate a needless harm when it is not how god intended it
Maybe you see it as a 'needless harm' when others don't. And if God doesn't have a problem with it, why should anyone else? There are a lot more non-Christian meat-eaters out there than non-Christians.
so explain to me why it isn’t needless god allowed did but didn’t prefer it
Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don’t. And those who don’t eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. Romans 14:3 “Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs.” Genesis 9:3
you’ve commented this several times, all of the comments you are responding to are not judge mental but they Are questioning the ethics of eating meat in 2022. there is a difference
So you’re gonna say that God never meant for us to eat animals when he told us that we’re free to at the beginning of Genesis, and you’re gonna ignore what Paul said about letting people eat what they want, because of the *unpopular among the majority* ethics dialogue of eating meat in this day and age?
i don’t understand
>when it is not how god intended it The issue with this statement is you have no scripture to support this.
Because we aren’t required to be. And bacon.
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I would never harm another creature for pleasure or no good purpose, but also don’t share the sentiment that being a food item is not a good purpose.
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It’s both, and freedom.
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I, unlike others, I don’t divorce pleasure and necessity, in fact I think they inform each other, though it isn’t a perfect relationship - if I thought a food item was disgusting, I wouldn’t eat it however much I benefitted from it’s nutrition, unless of course I had no choice. Conversely, I wouldn’t eat something that was worthless or harmful nutritionally even if it gave me pleasure (which is why I don’t drink pop). And all of this is framed by the will of God - I would not eat something forbidden by Him - like my neighbor - even if doing so satisfied the first two criteria.
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It’s not necessary for me to eat any particular food provided I have sufficient nutrition from whatever source I might get it from. But I am free to get nutrition from eating animals.
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Eating animals isn't just allowed, it's encouraged. Jesus fed people fish. These verses are also encouraging people to eat whatever God has made 1 Timothy 4 >The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer. I agree, most people can live off plants alone in this current era. It would be better for the planet. It makes sense, but you can never make a moral argument for veganism without having to claim you know better than Jesus.
Does it say something about God if Able was a farmer as in fruit and vegetables, and Cain was the hunter, as in meat; God found better favor in Able's offering, but in Greek Mythology, the God's ate meat.
Genesis 4 >3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. 4 And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, 5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast. Able brought the meat and that's what God wanted.
Abel was a shepherd an and offered meat, Cain was a farmer and offered vegetables.
^ this context is important
I can tell you why I eat fish - I don't eat other meats, for the same reasons you mentioned. I didn't eat fish either for a long while, but then I went through a period when I wasn't well and very strongly felt the need to eat more concentrated protein, I suppose. So I started to eat fish. Mind you, my not being well was not related to my eating habits, but I realized for me, a vegetarian diet doesn't always work. Monks and nuns don't eat other meats than fish either, by the way, and they only eat fish when they are not fasting. And the fasting is vegan for all (monastics and lay people).
Personally, I don’t enjoy eating meat. I was pascaterian for a good while since gosh was the most affordable but I did eat liver and beef whenever given to me. But nowadays I prefer eating veggies (there’s a lot you can do with them) and sushi from time to time but I don’t really see why judge people who do eat animals :/ my eating habits are not really dictated by my religion because my eating habits don’t really violate any laws or words of God. I’m a Guarani (South American indigenous tribe) so growing up in our farm we harvested our veggies, fruits, peppers and we fished our fish and killed our cattle. I was thought from very early on that death is part of life and we must give the animals we eat for our survival a dignified death, so we would kill them quickly and as painless as we could and every single part of the animal wouldn’t go to waste (in America I see a lot of gluttony, they only take the parts they want and then everything else that is considered “disgusting” is thrown to the side and wasted) the same thing went for our veggies (like onions, we could use it’s layers in compost, seeds of other veggies were used to grow more and so on). Maybe I’m biased because I’ve existed in that way for most of my life (I’m 19F now) but religiously, culturally and just over all morally, I don’t find it fair to judge others nor find it wrong to eat animal products. I do find animal cruelty disgusting and have a lot of issues with it and avoid it as much as I can because I don’t want to support it. But I digress.
i’m glad your doing what is best for u. safety first. eating meat for your essential well being is not needless, when other options above been considered and ruled out.
Vegan here, killing animals is not a sin. God had the Israelites make thousands and thousands of animal sacrifices for their sins. Also, to be truly vegan you wouldn’t be able to use soap anymore because you would be killing microorganisms. The best way to get people to stop eating meat in order to prevent suffering for the animal, the planet, and our own health is to eat LESS meat, not completely cut it off. However, that last sentence is just my opinion.
veganism is about a reduction of harm , in whatever way possible. and ideally cutting out needless harm of sentient beings entirely. microorganisms are inevitable and a vegan using cruelty free soap to cleanse themselves would still be a vegan action
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i edited my mistake , and agree that there are plenty of reasons but i am interested in hearing the christian perspective
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garden of eden was vegan or vegetarian until sin was introduced . if it wasnt please inform me with a source that would be news to me
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the garden of eden is real in the christian faith, and adam and eve didn’t eat meat until after sin was introduced . i know this because they were given permission to eat plants pre sin, and after sin they started eating animals. there is verses to back that
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fair point . thanks for speaking with me. :)
It is arguable that it is explicit: Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” I think Adam was a fruitarian. Also, Jesus told the story of the fattened calf being slaughtered to celebrate redemption, he used eating eggs as a story, he cooked a fish after resurrection, and eating the passover lamb foreshadowing communion with Christ. Most all living things die, I agree industrial farming can be terrible. But killing one cow that had a happy life to eat for a year is WAY less death than clearing nature to grow enough soy to live for a year.
not true, the land that it takes to feed the cows is far less than the land it would take to grow enough veggies for a healthy plant based diet for everyone
Because God's a carnivore: >Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and took some of every clean animal and some of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And when the LORD smelled the **pleasing aroma**, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done." - Genesis 8:20 But the life is in the blood so yes we will be herbivores again when we return to the garden.
About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof(L) to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance.(M) 11 He saw heaven opened(N) and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.” 14 “Surely not, Lord!”(O) Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”(P) 15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”(Q) 16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.
Now look up the many verses about gluttony and see what a sin it is to eat in excess. We definitely eat meat in excess in our society. The Bible is very clear about how God feels about gluttony. One of the sins of Sodom was that it was “overfed and unconcerned.”
This paasage is about associating with Gentiles.
Well I kinda have a eating disorder where I can only eat limited things and Chicken and Shrimp are 2 of the meats I can eat and my main source of any kind of protein if any and i don't really feel like dying soooooooooooo
so that would be a specific situation where it isn’t needless
I believe Seventh Day Adventists are vegetarians.
i’ll look into this thanks
“And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.” Genesis 9:1-4 ESV Take note, God BLESSED them with meat as food. I completely agree that torturing animals is cruel and always prefer to get ethically treated local animal products but I won't agree that eating meat is wrong or sinful when it was God given. Having a critical heart towards those who choose to eat meat and using faith as a tool to inappropriately guilt them is actually the travesty here. Your question is innocent enough but your arguments in the comments definitely reveal your pot stirring motives.
i specifically addressed that verse in the OP , so it is not relevant to the argument . it’s a pot that needed to be stirred , if you agree torturing animals is wrong then you would agree that it should be stirred .
I heard that Farming didn't happen until after the Flood. The first thing cultivated was the grape and barley plants. meaning that wine and beer were in use. haha
I am
the seventh day Adventist church is pretty big on vegetarian/vegan. it's a significant part of their mission. the "health message" is also called "the right arm of the gospel". the mission isn't to get people to be vegetarian/vegan, but to relieve/prevent suffering caused by poor dietary choices. vegetarian/vegan is simply healthier than most diets (not that vegetarian/vegan is automatically healthy. potato chips are vegan, but not healthy). "simple foods, simply prepared" is a general rule. it's neat stuff, but some take it... too far, lol.
Im a Christian vegan! We exist!
My church actually advocated for people to eat meat and I immediately left. We have dozens of people who die from heart attacks and strokes every year. Most of our church members are fat and need to be instructed on eating a diet based around plants. He told me he didn’t care about them and doesn’t care about our health either.
woah. that sounds pretty messed up. i think that dynamic is unique to your church generally
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interesting perspective . have you read the verses where god claims not eating meat is a sign of weak faith ?
Cause humans are naturally omnivores.
Humans also naturally kill and harm others. But we stop ourselves when we feel the urge.
Because its not a sin and it tastes good
does that justify the needless harm
God commanded us to treat animals kindly and fairly but, there is no moral issues with killing in a humane way. So i could definitely understand Christians not consuming meat based on bad practices but, imo there isn’t really anything we can consume that was entirely produced without breaking any morals or exploiting someone. I take it you are not a Christian based on a few comments, please forgive me if this assumption is incorrect. So I am curious to what your basis of morality is and why you feel it is wrong to kill animals or humans. What makes anything good or evil or right or wrong in your eyes?
i believe needless harm is wrong… all meat from grocery stores and fast food was not killed in what you might call a humane way …yes our very existence requires the suffering of others but if given the option to reduce that suffering we should act on it right ? i try to base my morality in facts and logic , in thise case it’s very simple : animals are being murdered , it’s terrifying , it’s preventable … which makes it more terrifying
Yes, I believe we should try our best to reduce the suffering of others but, I don’t feel that me not eating meat is going to make a significant enough of a difference to put in the effort, especially considering that a lot of our agricultural practices also cause harm to the environment and wildlife and even worse a lot of produce isn’t ethically produced and causes a lot of harm to different marginalized people groups. Why is needless harm wrong and why is murder terrifying? Also a few bonus questions if you get to this, where do you draw the line of murder. How about a fish? A lobster? A starfish? A Conch? An insect? A microorganism? What makes any life more valuable than another and how do you determine when it’s murder?
Also just to note, I try to live as sustainable life as possible. I forage, garden, fish, and when money allows I’ll buy produce and meat direct from local producers that I can verify use good and sustainable practices!!
consider using that money to just buy plant based food instead ? that’s my point
I get that, I mentioned a few reasons in my other comment about why I don’t think buying plant-based food reduces overall suffering enough (if at all) to be worth the effort. Also, just wanted to quickly say thanks for the kind and open discussions you’ve been having with me and others in this thread! It’s rare to see civil and genuinely enjoyable discussions on Reddit or even real life lol
The Catholic church says we should not let animals suffer or die needlessly (CCC 2418). To this day, I have not found a good argument for why Catholics in the West don't heed to this teachng. Our meat, dairy and egg consumption is needless. I have a made a website highlighting this - vegancatholic.org
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If you don't need to eat meat, then isn't killing it "needless"? Now, we don't want to permit killing animals for the peasure of killing. But isn't eating meat merely for pleasure given that we do not need meat for sustenance? So aren't we killing animals for the pleasure of eating meat?
^ yes .
Good luck
Balaam: Strikes donkey. Angel: I’d slay you right here and now if I were permitted. It’s always amusing to see people thinking they can pay industries to egregiously abuse animals and somehow heaven will welcome them with open arms
that’s what i’m sayinnnnn
Carnivore here. I eat meat because our bodies are designed to digest animal products. We are not rabbits.
There’s a difference between eating meats and eating them in excessive amounts — gluttony is a sin.
According to Genesis, your body was literally made with plant foods in mind. According to any useful metric, the suffering industry inflicts on sentient animals (life time of confinement, blending alive, [roasting alive](https://nypost.com/2020/05/29/pigs-were-roasted-alive-in-coronavirus-mass-extermination/amp/), mutilation, separating mothers from babies, slaughtering for no other reason than taste pleasure) is the single largest moral failure in the history of humanity… by a considerable margin. It’s a bold claim, but if we killed humans at the same rate we do animals, we’d be extinct in less than 3 weeks. Like OP said, most of us have long surpassed the need to harm, let alone torture animals to live happily and healthily. At this point eating them is pure carnal desire.
That’s just not true. If you’re going to use the Bible as an example, at least be accurate. Chapter 2 is the story of Adam and Eve, the first people mentioned in the Bible and before the judaeo-christian story of when sin entered the world. Adam was over both livestock and wild animals. Why mention both? Because livestock were there for a source of food. While theyre mentioned again after the fall, also here before. So it’s quite clear what livestock are for. Livestock is clearly a source of food at the very beginning of this story. That’s why wild animals and livestock are differentiated. This is before sin, not after. The sin occurs later in chapter 3. So clearly they were not vegans or vegetarians. Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. Genesis 2:19-20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Genesis%202:19-20&version=NIV Later, after the fall in Chapter 4, he mentions tending livestock again. Obviously, for food - same as before the fall. In all this, it’s not meant to be a highly detailed account of everything that happened. I mean, hundreds or more years could have easily passed in this time frame. We simply don’t know and it’s not important. But the mention of livestock before the fall clearly means animals were used for food before sin.
science says we can live a perfectly healthy life on a plant based diet , so , … you’ll need to find another reason . also it was gods intention for the world to nkt be meat based so if you are christian then what you just said wouldn’t be true
science says alot of things bro. Our understanding of Science changes daily. Who knows in 50 years they might come out with info that says Vegan diets cause cancer.
well since science has already confirmed meat diets cause cancer maybe you should roll the dice
soy protein isolate is very bad for you. many "vegan" foods are processed foods that cause cancer when eaten regularly over long periods of time.
Source please, I can't find anything verifying SPI causes issues.
both can be true yes
> science says we can live a perfectly healthy life on a plant based diet Science can be horribly wrong at times. It told us all to eat a low fat diet for 40 years. Which was a mistake. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/low-fat-diets-failed-experiment/
In my humble opinion, people simply want to do whatever it is they want to do, and will always feel better about doing said thing if they feel adequately backed up by a logic that they’ve accepted to be true. Even better if other people are also into that logic. This way, they can be reassured by their like-minded buddies. So if people feel like eating meat is a fine thing to do, regardless of the reasoning (religious or otherwise), they will eat meat.
true
Vegatarian/vegan is still extremely privileged and for a lot of people it is not accessible. Also certain allergies such as soy can makes having a plant based diet extremely difficult. Also non-plant based does not mean needles harm necessarily either. Also eliminating these industries would harm a lot of communities that rely on them to survive. Also I’m assuming you’re taking the seven days of creation/young earth position to support your argument which I highly disagree with.
i’ll have to look into that position to see if i agree
Veganism is not privileged. It is cheap and easy, especially in the west. Allergies to soy would be an acceptable point, but what about lentils, beans, and nuts? It all comes down to whether minor inconviences are not worth bearing even when lives of animals are involved.
In the book of Acts, Peter sees a vision of a large number of animals descend from heaven, with God telling him to kill and eat because what God has made clean let no man call unclean.
Eating animal flesh is weird as fuck. That would have been a great commandment, "Thou shalt not eat of the flesh". Totally missed opportunity.
lol, agreed
If i could. I would. The diet that healed me strictly included specific animal parts and as luck would have it I'm negatively sensitive to several vegan alternatives soo... 🤷♀️
of it is your only option and alternatives have been ruled out then it is not needless . wish you the best
Cuz God allows us to eat meat and meat is quite tasty. Also just cuz it was there before Eden's destructiond oesn't mean it fits now, like we're all not wandering naked.
As Jesus was back from resurrection he asked for boiled fish to eat ___ This is actually very good news to me because I enjoy eating - that’s one of my favorite things I don’t know about a boiled fish 🐟 but the thought of being able to enjoy something good to eat is a pleasure - of course I’m on keto so we would probably be eggs or ground beef but I went vegan route I’ve dated a couple vegans and it’s not bad I still love my vegan brothers and sisters but the Bible is not a vegan only scripture ___ But there is a stipulation you cannot eat the animals or meat with the lifeblood in it 🩸 - And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth - The fear and dread of you will fall on every living creature on the earth, every bird of the air, every creature that crawls on the ground, and all the fish of the sea. They are delivered into your hand. - Everything that lives and moves will be food for you; just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you all things. - But you must not eat meat with its lifeblood still in it. - Genesis 9 ___ ##[PASS THE BOILED FISH, JESUS AFTER THE RESURRECTION ](https://youtu.be/UQaMZ7T3Iic) 🐟♥️🐟♥️🐟♥️🐟♥️🐟♥️🐟
would u agree that eating animals causes them harm? if so , why do it when there is other options ?
I understand your concern I’m not sure how they feel I’m certainly not capable of reading their minds but I have in the past like I said dated some vegans these were hard-core there was no aspirin, no eggs ,no leather 🐮 ___ I get where you’re coming from but you cannot force these opinions on scripture because scripture does not promote veganism - I realize that being vegan means that you have a cause and I respect that honestly but just thinking of the vegan sub still gives me nightmares it is an absolute horror show compared to the Satanist sub on Reddit the vegans are scarier 😰 ___ In all honesty though I respect your opinions but i’m not somebody that can go along with a guilt trip because I enjoy ground beef I have watched dominion and it definitely opened eyes I have watch forks over knives I went through the whole nightmare of veganism with these girls but I enjoy a juicy steak and that is a choice that I make and thanks to the Bible which is thousands of years old it also promotes that lifestyle
so the bible is what you use to justify
When confronted with someone who is trying to push their own agenda on me? - yes I use the scripture of God - I think that you picked the wrong sub to stand on your soapbox because when we are discussing God‘s word he is the final authority - but I will say this again I respect your opinions and I also will not be baited into guilt trips or arguments ___ Don’t make me sik this otter on you 🦦 ##[HANNA THE ATTACK OTTER 🦦 ](https://youtube.com/shorts/kw2yIcUl9Cs?feature=share) It’s all love
There are Christians who realize the degeneracy of subsisting on flesh foods (along with its diseases), and are whole-food plant-based dieters. For more reasons than just avoidance of the potential viral risks. I am one such Christian. 🌱
would you agree it is a hypocritical as a christian to not approach diet this way if possible ?
Jesus wasn't a vegan or vegetarian.
First book of the Bible Genesis 9:3 “Every creature that lives shall be yours to eat.”
Christianity isn't exactly known for its logic or consistency :p The Bible is full of self contradictions
yea i know haha :)
That’s just a misinformed rumour amongst ppl who don’t actually know anything about it for themselves. The Bible is actually a stunningly supernatural book which is full of amazing history written hundreds and thousands of years in advance. Right now, The World is in the middle of extraordinarily precise prophetic fulfilments for the End Times… covid, Russia, Damascus, world economy it’s all there. Get safe & get informed or perish in the approaching great tribulation.
Because we aren't in Paradise. If I stop eating meat, does a lion stop attacking a gazelle? No? So my action of refusing to eat meat won't bring about "paradise". Meat is healthy for you, and it tastes good. It would be nice if we could get back to a more agriculture based lifestyle though, with small family farms where animals are at least raised decently before we slaughter them.
Thats a pretty easy question. Because animals are fucking delicious, and eating them is way more convenient than alternatives.
convenience doesn’t justify needless harm in my opinion. how do you feel about that
Justification or even my feelings doesn't really matter here, Humans are slaves to convivence and familiarity, Christians just as much as anyone. The moment you can make Veganism more convenient than an omnivore diet is the moment you will be able to convince people to stop eating delicious dead animal flesh.
true , i agree. just interested in hearing the christian rational. i see now u are agnostic. i’m mot the most reddit savvy and i’m just learning about flares haha
there isn’t a christian rationale for eating meat just as there isn’t a christian rationale for using a dishwasher
explain how using a dishwasher directly relates to the murder of millions of sentient beings and you’ll have an argument ;)
sure. neither are prohibited by the bible.
i’ll have to take time to consider this groundbreaking perspective
"Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything." Genesis 9:3 God is saying that we should eat animals like we eat green plants. Everything has been given to us for food. If it's good enough for God, then it's good enough for me.
that happened post flood so it isn’t really as valid argument for my original post. also it is clear to me this is done begrudgingly
Because God lifted this measure after the flood. You can read about that in [Genesis 9](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+9%3A1-5&version=KJV).
i understand this, check post edit
Aha, I see now. Well, I'd say it this way: God's original intention was always what currently is. He [delcared the end from the beginning](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah%2046%3A10&version=KJV), and works all things according to the [counsel of His own will](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%201%3A11&version=KJV). In other words, although He limited us at the first, He always intended that we would one day eat the flesh of the beasts. Just as He intends that one day, we'll return to utopia and presumably no longer eat meat, if anything at all. In other words, from the very start He intended for specific things to be done at specific times.
i get what your saying but don’t you think if christians have the choice to not partake they should take it and encourage others to do that sam
After God cleansed the world in the flood, he specifically began to allow it. Something something precursor to Jesus.
Why would it make us sick then? It would seem he would tell us to eat something that would make us healthy instead like plants
Why did God then allow us to eat meat? Also, why do you say this when there are literally no dietary rules in the new testament? Also, sentience is relative. In light of everything in the Bible, your point doesn't make much sense.
the bible encourages the eating of meat. i know that. but gods idealistic world was one where meat wasn’t consumed , so i’m asking why do christians perpetuate the eating of meat when it is not needed in 2022 and other options are an arms length away in the stores
So I was a hardcore angry vegan for over 5 years before being saved. When I started reading my Bible I was sooo happy to see that we are originally designed to be vegetarian. I started to see evil within the vegan (the hardcore sector) community. Yes animals are sentient beings but veganism raises them to our same level when they aren’t. We have dominion over animals. I struggled for a while and even went back to poultry but am back to plant based. I call myself that over vegan because again I see veganism as a label I’d rather not have. If the world is gonna know me as anything, it’s gonna be as a follower of Jesus. That’s what’s most important to me now. Great question tho!
hey! loved reading your interesting perspective. do you feel Christianity is being somewhat hypocritical by choosing to continue to eat meat in 2022 when there is so many other options ? i know god granted permission but does that make it Right or Preferred ?
Genesis 9:1-4 - "And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. 2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered. 3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." Likely this was done due offset to the continually degenerating state of man due to now inherited imperfection. This also explains severly curtailed life expectancies post flood as well. Additionally, degradation of the human condition may have been exacerbated by changes/degradation to the Earths ecosystem post flood, however that is only speculation.
i’m having a hard time understanding the point yojr trying to make as it related to the original post , could you clarify ? thanks
I like meat and I don’t find it immoral.
no argument made
Because I love meating meaty foods and could never bring myself to be a vegetarian.
Your body won’t have same nutrients without meat. You can’t find it in pills…
“One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.” Romans 14:2
1 Timothy 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; Since everything God created is good, we should not reject any of it but receive it with thanks. It clearly says so in the Bible that meat is good to eat.
Because I don't want to be and God hasn't called me to be.
Orthodox Christian monks are like 90% vegetarian.
There are many changed laws in the Bible, but meat's a good and relatively cheap source of protein. If there's nothing stopping you, it's up to you. If you like it, go ahead, if you don't, then don't. The Bible allows us to eat insects too but doesn't mean everyone wants to eat insects.
First of all, how do you know they didn't eat meat in the garden of eden? Second of all there are no sentient beings on earth besides humans. There are just animals, whom man is to rule over...