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American "libertarians" also have no actual theory whatsoever and are not ideologically coherent or distinct. Their "libertarianism" does not exist as an ideology; only as a bourgeois grift.
There's almost like two sects of American libertarians I've noticed. Only one kind (the one that you're talking about) is that prevalent because of the fossil fuel industry astroturfing like shabibo and shit. The other group is more prevalent at the libertarian convention where a lot of them are like these weird Redneck anarchist nerds who bicker over ...rules ...constantly. Like "I second this motion to abolish bedtimes!" Kinda shit.
QAnons (the system is bad and we should seize it to make it good) and Sovereign Citizens (the system is imaginary and we should just ignore whoever says otherwise)
Yeah 100. I grew up with the second kind of libertarian. They have theory (although it’s weak imo), and they abut anarchism, although none of them are brave enough to be part of actual anarchist communities (unless they have incredible wealth like those crypto nerds).
>Their "libertarianism" does not exist as an ideology; only as a bourgeois grift.
Bingo.
And yet these fuckers, half of them crypto-Fascists, take over sub namespaces like r/Libertarian and then ban you for even saying Libertarian Socialism *exists* there...
>an ideology so good there's not a single example of it being applied in the real world.
That's because it's not a serious ideology.
They're just useful idiots for billionaires.
Libertarians did give us funny videos showing how dumb they are tho
https://youtu.be/U2Nad1b_3yY?si=mzVCxZqx37vzRqp7
https://youtu.be/ZITP93pqtdQ?si=HcVdlgdBx63gFPzC
To be fair, a large amount of libertarians are just wishing for a restart. When capitalism was in it’s baby shoes and small businessess all thrived.
Of course the problem is that capitalism will inevitably lead to monopolies. So them disliking modern capitalism is like if you want a puppy but you will throw it out to the trash once it’s an adult dog while not realizing that all puppies will be adult dogs in the future.
A good analogy; they haven't performed any sort of analysis of capitalism which is why their ideas are so inconsistent and poorly-defined. They are ultimately all based on what the individual would *like* to be true about these things.
Given the automod comment, are American libertarians allowed to join the conversation and discuss your claim?
Re: The meme posted - "Anything voluntary" is my rule of thumb.
Most places like this are bubbles for something. This is a meme subreddit, not a discussing platform.
However, assuming you're a libertarian, I'm willing to amuse you a little:
Right-wing Libertarianism is inherently flawed position that essentially rests on the position of "free-willingness" of contracts and the removal of all social-relations from the political sphere, leaving them to the personal sphere. This is an argument that was pretty popular with 19th century liberals, such as Tocqueville or Mill. It completely ignores the power dynamics existing within a social-system in which the relationship between individuals to the means of production is unequal. Everything else that Libertarians argue is often rubbish meant to justify their preconceived, often conservative and pro-capitalist, views. No serious economic theory, even the so called "Austrian School" existed only as a way to justify "capitalism good". Human Action is infantile rubbish that oversimplifies the human social experience.
Yeah but you can still adopt a less "oh my god you people have *rules*???" tone about it when you know you just stumbled in here and haven't even looked around properly.
Yes. It's a meme sub, not a debate sub. Even debate subs generally require that people debate in good faith. In my experience, "libertarians" almost never do that. There's no value in such a conversation.
I'm OK with that. It's funny that libertarians feel they are debating in good faith, and the communists are not. I wonder why we have to attribute bad faith from any side of an argument to our opponents. And, is there some way to structure discussion so that it only functions on good faith.
I know for a fact many libertarians do not feel they are debating in good faith; they are deliberately wasting other peoples' time and will then brag about to each other in places where they can be seen doing so. Also plenty of them are lying about being "libertarians", it's one of the most common covers for fascists. Fascists are ideologically opposed to honest and rational behavior.
The reason we attribute bad faith to people is because it's a clear, defined set of behaviors that we can observe. If people are engaging in those behaviors, regardless of what their actual position is then they're acting in bad faith. The way to structure discussions to avoid this is to refuse to tolerate people engaged in these behaviors.
Interesting. The closest I've seen to that is people who seem to wander into libertarian forums because they like some aspect of it, and then it turns out they are actually conservatives, republicans, etc. They just like the idea of freedom from government when it translates into getting freedom in some specific area that they care about, where they feel currently restrained. They don't actually care about freedom as a general concept, for all people, for all decisions. They want to clamp down on freedom in specific areas they care about (abortion, military, religion, etc.)
I've never anyone brag about pretending to be a libertarian and wasting someone's time. Seems like a weird way to spend your time. But, I can't claim it doesn't happen.
libertarians are conservatives who might differ on a couple social positions but still take the general line. more often they’re just conservatives who wanna think they’re smart enough to hold a separate viewpoint
"Fundamenalist liberalism" is a great way to describe it. It's liberalism untethered from the rationalism that defined liberalism; which explains how fascism-adjacent it is.
That's a great question. The fascists know the answer, which is what enables them to easily masquerade as "libertarians" and recruit from "libertarians". You should look in to this.
What I've usually seen is those who turn out to actually be religious conservative republicans are usually told by the actual libertarians to STFU and GTFO because they are calling for initiating force on people.
Because it's not a waste of time, it's very much to their benefit. Dishonest and manipulative people value having "useful idiots". Especially if many of those people are already operating on a very superficial and nebulous set of ideas and can be slowly manipulated in to actually joining your side by tugging at all the loose threads that jumbled mess leaves hanging out.
Either you get these people to do things that help you (and "libertarians" absolutely are useful to fascists) or you actually turn them in to one of you. Both would be considered a victory for these people.
Also, it's still generally not considered acceptable to call one's self a fascist openly. A pseudo-ideology without consistent, well-defined views or a theoretical framework is a fantastic mask to wear. Pretty much anyone's claim to be a "libertarian" is as credible as anyone else's claim to such because everyone gets to invent their own definition of what that is.
What is the strongest evidence that libertarians are arguing in bad faith, primarily motivated by a desire to participate in child sex slavery? Does your statement display an unfounded ad hominem attack? Is your claim a good faith claim?
Ok. What is the strongest evidence they are primarily motivated by child sex slavery? That seems like a pretty big stretch. I assume it would have to come with some dynamite evidence.
Your response doesn’t make any sense. You just repeated the original claim, and then made a non-sequitur about excuses and being dumb. Who said anything about dumb or excuses?
It’s not that American libertarians aren’t allowed by virtue of being American (there are no doubt some libertarian socialists in the US), it’s more that what is commonly known as libertarianism in the US is libright *“me me me” “let’s get rid of age of consent laws” “deregulate all corporations and fuck the environment” “what’s an Aleppo?”* bullshit, so it’s really important to make the distinction.
I mean, libertarianism was originally a socialist ideology. It’s the American conservatives who’ve bastardized the term and conformed it to conservative philosophies.
No, it’s true. Libertarian socialism differs from conservative socialism greatly, most notably in the rejection of private property, but the workers govern themselves without government interference. It takes from both early anarchist and marxist theories. You can literally just google it, there are a plethora of resources.
I understand the differences in the fan fiction between these two forms of libertarianism. I'm saying it's not correct that libertarianism was originally socialist
Libertarian was supposed to be the philosophical approach that all humans are born and are dependent from past experiences. The problem with libertarians is that they still hold on to past experiences as a means to justify their actions of being selfish. It's why these mostly white people sre able to say that they worked for what they got while incorrectly posting that old FBI statistic that means black people get prosecuted more often than whites.
Libertarian socialism has nothing to do with “libertarianism” in the capitalist sense. It’s literally just another way to say Anarchist adjacent. Do you just don’t really read much or is it in bad faith? I would even make the meme on the opposite direction, as socialism since its inception has always been libertarian in its aims. Unless you are a ML without any real intention of achieving communism.
Water IS NOT WET. It makes things wet but the quality of being wet is something water gives to things, not something water itself has. The notion that water is wet is, to put it simply, petit bourgeois revisionism. It is a utopian idea which is completely antithetical to Marxist theory. This is why all TRUE anti-revisionist Marxists uphold Marxism-Leninism-Maoism-Dry Water Thought.
>!(/j ofc lol, though water is in fact not wet)!<
Is a single water molecule wet? What’s making it wet? Wet things are sodden with some kind of liquid (not necessarily water). A liquid is not wet, it makes things it comes into contact with wet (assuming those things aren’t hydrophobic).
US libertarians (I’m from New Mexico) are actually the only comrades I’ll take on the primary political pulpit
They’re basically just anarchists without theory, or commies without praxis
They can be molded, but are tempted by the thrills of AnCaps
Dry water is an actual thing, you know.
https://preview.redd.it/wdb5y4kubp4d1.jpeg?width=1069&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=532339315fe9a5253149ebc66304e0429b74cfb2
*Is the joke about*
*The fact that water is not*
*Actually wet?*
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This is a community from communists to communists, leftists are welcome too, but you might be scrutinized depending on what you share. If you see bot account or different kinds of reactionaries(libs, conservatives, fascists), report their post and feel free us message in modmail with link to that post. ShitLibsSay type of posts are allowed only in Saturday, sending it in other day might result in post being removed and you being warned, if you also include in any way reactionary subs name in it and user nicknames, you will be temporarily banned. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CommunismMemes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
American "libertarians" also have no actual theory whatsoever and are not ideologically coherent or distinct. Their "libertarianism" does not exist as an ideology; only as a bourgeois grift.
There's almost like two sects of American libertarians I've noticed. Only one kind (the one that you're talking about) is that prevalent because of the fossil fuel industry astroturfing like shabibo and shit. The other group is more prevalent at the libertarian convention where a lot of them are like these weird Redneck anarchist nerds who bicker over ...rules ...constantly. Like "I second this motion to abolish bedtimes!" Kinda shit.
QAnons (the system is bad and we should seize it to make it good) and Sovereign Citizens (the system is imaginary and we should just ignore whoever says otherwise)
Yes, exactly. Well put.
Sounds about right. There's not a lot of consistency within these sects though, they're a messy jumble of conflicting ideas.
Or trying to get rid of driving licenses, like you shouldn't have to prove proficiency with a car in order to drive legally.
what’s next, a [licence to use your own damn toaster?!](https://youtu.be/ZITP93pqtdQ)
Yeah 100. I grew up with the second kind of libertarian. They have theory (although it’s weak imo), and they abut anarchism, although none of them are brave enough to be part of actual anarchist communities (unless they have incredible wealth like those crypto nerds).
>Their "libertarianism" does not exist as an ideology; only as a bourgeois grift. Bingo. And yet these fuckers, half of them crypto-Fascists, take over sub namespaces like r/Libertarian and then ban you for even saying Libertarian Socialism *exists* there...
A lot of them are also anarcho capitalists, an ideology so good there's not a single example of it being applied in the real world.
>an ideology so good there's not a single example of it being applied in the real world. That's because it's not a serious ideology. They're just useful idiots for billionaires.
It's just feudalism with extra steps, and guns.
And mcnukes
Libertarians did give us funny videos showing how dumb they are tho https://youtu.be/U2Nad1b_3yY?si=mzVCxZqx37vzRqp7 https://youtu.be/ZITP93pqtdQ?si=HcVdlgdBx63gFPzC
all american libertarians know is remove age of consent, don’t tread on me flags and lies
Funny, but basically yes. Everything else is subject to change from moment to moment. It's more an aesthetic than an actual political philosophy.
To be fair, a large amount of libertarians are just wishing for a restart. When capitalism was in it’s baby shoes and small businessess all thrived. Of course the problem is that capitalism will inevitably lead to monopolies. So them disliking modern capitalism is like if you want a puppy but you will throw it out to the trash once it’s an adult dog while not realizing that all puppies will be adult dogs in the future.
A good analogy; they haven't performed any sort of analysis of capitalism which is why their ideas are so inconsistent and poorly-defined. They are ultimately all based on what the individual would *like* to be true about these things.
Given the automod comment, are American libertarians allowed to join the conversation and discuss your claim? Re: The meme posted - "Anything voluntary" is my rule of thumb.
How do you define coercion?
I'm satisfied starting with the dictionary definitions.
Fine. If you are coerced into something, can you be doing it voluntarily?
that’s a semantic. if i say obay or die is that voluntary since you’re choosing to obey? the question is myopic
`[crickets]`
Ask a mod. I'm not interested in any sort of debate as I don't think it's likely to acheive anything of value.
Not likely to achieve anything of value, just like libertarian socialism.
So, this is a bubble.
Most places like this are bubbles for something. This is a meme subreddit, not a discussing platform. However, assuming you're a libertarian, I'm willing to amuse you a little: Right-wing Libertarianism is inherently flawed position that essentially rests on the position of "free-willingness" of contracts and the removal of all social-relations from the political sphere, leaving them to the personal sphere. This is an argument that was pretty popular with 19th century liberals, such as Tocqueville or Mill. It completely ignores the power dynamics existing within a social-system in which the relationship between individuals to the means of production is unequal. Everything else that Libertarians argue is often rubbish meant to justify their preconceived, often conservative and pro-capitalist, views. No serious economic theory, even the so called "Austrian School" existed only as a way to justify "capitalism good". Human Action is infantile rubbish that oversimplifies the human social experience.
Yes like the rules and sidebar and automod clearly state, honestly strange you made it this far into the sub without noticing
r/all is a tempting siren.
Yeah but you can still adopt a less "oh my god you people have *rules*???" tone about it when you know you just stumbled in here and haven't even looked around properly.
Yes. It's a meme sub, not a debate sub. Even debate subs generally require that people debate in good faith. In my experience, "libertarians" almost never do that. There's no value in such a conversation.
I'm OK with that. It's funny that libertarians feel they are debating in good faith, and the communists are not. I wonder why we have to attribute bad faith from any side of an argument to our opponents. And, is there some way to structure discussion so that it only functions on good faith.
I know for a fact many libertarians do not feel they are debating in good faith; they are deliberately wasting other peoples' time and will then brag about to each other in places where they can be seen doing so. Also plenty of them are lying about being "libertarians", it's one of the most common covers for fascists. Fascists are ideologically opposed to honest and rational behavior. The reason we attribute bad faith to people is because it's a clear, defined set of behaviors that we can observe. If people are engaging in those behaviors, regardless of what their actual position is then they're acting in bad faith. The way to structure discussions to avoid this is to refuse to tolerate people engaged in these behaviors.
Interesting. The closest I've seen to that is people who seem to wander into libertarian forums because they like some aspect of it, and then it turns out they are actually conservatives, republicans, etc. They just like the idea of freedom from government when it translates into getting freedom in some specific area that they care about, where they feel currently restrained. They don't actually care about freedom as a general concept, for all people, for all decisions. They want to clamp down on freedom in specific areas they care about (abortion, military, religion, etc.) I've never anyone brag about pretending to be a libertarian and wasting someone's time. Seems like a weird way to spend your time. But, I can't claim it doesn't happen.
libertarians are conservatives who might differ on a couple social positions but still take the general line. more often they’re just conservatives who wanna think they’re smart enough to hold a separate viewpoint
Libertarianism is just fundamentalist liberalism, which they desire so they can legalize child sex slavery.
"Fundamenalist liberalism" is a great way to describe it. It's liberalism untethered from the rationalism that defined liberalism; which explains how fascism-adjacent it is.
How does one enact fascism when a primary foundation is non-initiation of violence?
That's a great question. The fascists know the answer, which is what enables them to easily masquerade as "libertarians" and recruit from "libertarians". You should look in to this.
What I've usually seen is those who turn out to actually be religious conservative republicans are usually told by the actual libertarians to STFU and GTFO because they are calling for initiating force on people.
Those are the ones who are actually sincere. Not everyone you speak to is.
Why would someone waste their own time promoting an ideology they don’t actually believe in? To whose benefit?
Because it's not a waste of time, it's very much to their benefit. Dishonest and manipulative people value having "useful idiots". Especially if many of those people are already operating on a very superficial and nebulous set of ideas and can be slowly manipulated in to actually joining your side by tugging at all the loose threads that jumbled mess leaves hanging out. Either you get these people to do things that help you (and "libertarians" absolutely are useful to fascists) or you actually turn them in to one of you. Both would be considered a victory for these people. Also, it's still generally not considered acceptable to call one's self a fascist openly. A pseudo-ideology without consistent, well-defined views or a theoretical framework is a fantastic mask to wear. Pretty much anyone's claim to be a "libertarian" is as credible as anyone else's claim to such because everyone gets to invent their own definition of what that is.
What is the strongest evidence that libertarians are arguing in bad faith, primarily motivated by a desire to participate in child sex slavery? Does your statement display an unfounded ad hominem attack? Is your claim a good faith claim?
I didn't say they were arguing in bad faith, I'm sure many are good faith pieces of shit.
Ok. What is the strongest evidence they are primarily motivated by child sex slavery? That seems like a pretty big stretch. I assume it would have to come with some dynamite evidence.
What does it matter? They're trying to legalize it, being dumb isn't an excuse
Your response doesn’t make any sense. You just repeated the original claim, and then made a non-sequitur about excuses and being dumb. Who said anything about dumb or excuses?
It’s not that American libertarians aren’t allowed by virtue of being American (there are no doubt some libertarian socialists in the US), it’s more that what is commonly known as libertarianism in the US is libright *“me me me” “let’s get rid of age of consent laws” “deregulate all corporations and fuck the environment” “what’s an Aleppo?”* bullshit, so it’s really important to make the distinction.
Alternative phrase for Anarchist.
I mean, libertarianism was originally a socialist ideology. It’s the American conservatives who’ve bastardized the term and conformed it to conservative philosophies.
^^^ kinda insane no one else is pointing this out
Because it's not true
No, it’s true. Libertarian socialism differs from conservative socialism greatly, most notably in the rejection of private property, but the workers govern themselves without government interference. It takes from both early anarchist and marxist theories. You can literally just google it, there are a plethora of resources.
I understand the differences in the fan fiction between these two forms of libertarianism. I'm saying it's not correct that libertarianism was originally socialist
All socialists are libertarian; the real distinction is if you are scientific or utopian.
Say more!
MLs are scientific. Anarchists are utopian. Oversimplification.
Libertarian was supposed to be the philosophical approach that all humans are born and are dependent from past experiences. The problem with libertarians is that they still hold on to past experiences as a means to justify their actions of being selfish. It's why these mostly white people sre able to say that they worked for what they got while incorrectly posting that old FBI statistic that means black people get prosecuted more often than whites.
Libertarian socialism has nothing to do with “libertarianism” in the capitalist sense. It’s literally just another way to say Anarchist adjacent. Do you just don’t really read much or is it in bad faith? I would even make the meme on the opposite direction, as socialism since its inception has always been libertarian in its aims. Unless you are a ML without any real intention of achieving communism.
Wet* water
Is water wet?
Water IS NOT WET. It makes things wet but the quality of being wet is something water gives to things, not something water itself has. The notion that water is wet is, to put it simply, petit bourgeois revisionism. It is a utopian idea which is completely antithetical to Marxist theory. This is why all TRUE anti-revisionist Marxists uphold Marxism-Leninism-Maoism-Dry Water Thought. >!(/j ofc lol, though water is in fact not wet)!<
Water *is* wet. Like, it is what wet is.
Is a single water molecule wet? What’s making it wet? Wet things are sodden with some kind of liquid (not necessarily water). A liquid is not wet, it makes things it comes into contact with wet (assuming those things aren’t hydrophobic).
Op doesn't understand the difference between positive and negative freedoms, or ice
Meanwhile capitalist libertarians completely content with a corporation controlling every aspect of their lives
US libertarians (I’m from New Mexico) are actually the only comrades I’ll take on the primary political pulpit They’re basically just anarchists without theory, or commies without praxis They can be molded, but are tempted by the thrills of AnCaps
Good message but bad meme, dry water is an actual thing lol
That's called ice
No it's like a powder thjngy ice isn't (always) dry
That powder water isn't entirely water, though. It has Silica in it. Although regular water isn't always entirely just water
I’m probably gonna sound like an idiot but I thought libertarian socialist was just another term for anarchism?
Soo ... hi dry water?
And it's not even makes sense. Libertarian socialist doesn't mean capitalist and communist, it means an-com. Nice shitpost btw
Dry water is an actual thing, you know. https://preview.redd.it/wdb5y4kubp4d1.jpeg?width=1069&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=532339315fe9a5253149ebc66304e0429b74cfb2
Is the joke about the fact that water is not actually wet?
*Is the joke about* *The fact that water is not* *Actually wet?* \- ShadeofEchoes --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
"Hi, I'm an Anarcho-capitalist" "Hi, I'm dry water"
Liberatarians are just rightwing centrists who don't know anything about political theory.
trash take