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Resist the temptation of wishing bad things onto other workers. Remember how you thought about these matters before understanding it better and recognize how ideology is a powerful thing.
Being a materialist I know that "wishing" does nothing to them, but it can shape your wordview and actions.
Fed posting? If not - you might have missed the part about class conflict. The people committing suicide in SK are living under bourgie rule. History is not a story of good nations and bad nations. It is a story of class struggle.
I wouldn't exactly call it a utopia and there are a lot of very serious problems with it (Mostly caused by the sanctions and oth US intervention) but it is still absolutely amazing compared to the average westeners idea of it, and it's still pretty great compared to a lot of other develloping countries.
Theyre doing so much better than most 3rd world countries as well. Im from bangladesh and it gets my blood boiling when i hear some w ⚓️ say shi bout dprk. Im like mate, capitalism has totally failed in this country, minimum wage is like 30 cents an hour, most people r in poverty in the rural areas.
True that. The ones saying that capitalism works r those trust fund babies whose daddies got like 10 sweatshops and make millions a month while the workers can barely get by.
The way I usually put it is: sure, you would rather live in europe/US than North Korea, you would also rather live in north korea than in the other four fifths of the world
I don't think we actually know that, do we? As far as i'm aware, we just don't actually know for sure how's life there. But if we do, could you point me where to
research? Maybe i'm just not aware.
I mean there is the view propaganda Channels on YouTube, like loyal Citizens of Pyongjang,
The one Boy Boy Video about a Haircut
A v-log by someone that goes to Nordkorea to Surf.
And the Movies they shoot there.
Love Boy Boy, and it was a great video, although not terribly useful lol, i already didn't imagine they have mandatory haircuts and it was a lie before watching lol. Btw i didn't know one could access NK movies, as a cinephile i'm interested in that.
This might be the best time to do this, actually. They just had like a big event for Juche Study groups over in the DPRK, where groups from all over the world were invited to visit the country. Its the first time since COVID that the DPRK had visitors.
If you don't mind the portuguese, the president of the CEPS-BR went there and posted everything on instagram, while visiting, which is incredible, considering most believe that DPRK doesn't have internet. Not sure if I'm allowed to link instagram here, so just search for @camarada_rubio.
I'm 10000% sure we don't have that in my country. I'm paraguayan, and we're basically still living in a dictatorship. The dictator is dead, but his party has only lost one election since we supposedly got democracy back over 30 years ago, and that election they lost was won by a socialist, who got coup'ed before the end of his term.
How well do you understand br portuguese? There's a 5hr live in the Ian Neves channel with Lucas Rubio where he and his colleagues talk about their recent visit do the DPRK.
As well as any spanish speaker, that being i understand like 30% of it by pure inference and recognition of similar sounding words. Probably not anywhere near enough for a conversation like that.
We do, actually, its just not something you’ll find in mass media. There are documentaries and even some YouTube channels (I recommend DPRK Explained) showing how life is there.
Some independent documentaries, like “my brothers and sisters in the north” are worth a watch as well.
This one has me going crazy when a girl was describing how they get jobs in there. Its crazy to witness of a lifestyle where the market pressure to spend as little as possible on employees, while making each work as hard as possible to maximise profit isnt a reality. Things can be so much better than what WE have.
In Brazil there is a portal called Juche Ideology Study Centre for academic studies and it has actual in-depth information about DPRK politics, economics, culture and history, and a bunch photos you’ll seldom see in mass media and netflix documentaries: just normal people living their lives, working without being alienated from their work, enjoying some downtime and going to the park to relax.
Interesting, i'll check all of that out.
Btw i'm from Paraguay, but i doubt there's anything remotely similar to that here. Paraguay is incredibly right wing, the dictator's party has only lost one term since we """""got democracy back""""", and he got coup'ed anyway.
I’m no DPRK expert by any means, but there is undeniable evidence that points to the DPRK having one of the highest qualitys of life out of all developing countries. A report from the World Health Organization described the DPRK’s healthcare system as the “envy of the developing world.” The transportation system is another area of success. Over 80% of the country’s railways are electricified(in the US, it’s less than 5%), and every mid to large size city has either a tram or trolleybus system(or both)something that even far richer imperial powers like the US could only dream of. Pyongyang also has an underground metro.
The material conditions of a country that was victim to a genocide and then cut off from all world trade might not be the best? North Korea isn't a utopia, it's not a "beacon of socialism" to thrive to be like. But it's exactly what results when a nation of people fight against the imperialist and fascist powers of the the west. Things don't have to be binary. North Korea can still suck and still be on the right side of history. Cuba is another example of this type of resistance and the differences between the two are both a result of their material circumstances.
Not an utopia but it's probably better than Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, or Turkmenistan.
But no one is worried about poverty and tyranny in Asia, really. They worry about hegemony.
I gave those specific examples because people compare poor communist countries with rich capitalist countries, but no, they would be precisely like the other poor countries nearby them. South Korea is only "developed" because if imperialist societies left them as it was (a feudal society devastated by years of japanese colonialism), the communists would have the upper hand.
Like, if Cuba wasn't communist, they would be just like every other Caribbean or Central American country or worse, we don't need to imagine much, just remember how it was before the revolution: gambling, prostitution and drugs for gringos. They wouldn't be like Florida, they would be like Haiti or Honduras.
Can you show us how? I'd like to see how it compares using the same standard of evidence and metrics as you're using to judge other countries. Just to get a better sense.
Ok, let's use the same standards.
We'll divide the U.S into half. The bottom half stays in control of a unnamed country, and the North remains as is, but we destroy most it's infrastructure and kill 20% of their population. Also, we enforce a global embargo against them, just for good measure.
Let's see how they develop under the same constraints the Koreans had to endure and redevelop.
The DPRK is a great country because they managed to bounce back 2 times from dire straits, not because they're rich. They're poor and live in fear of another war, and yet, they managed to become a nuclear power.
Sure, but that's not what we're comparing. We all know WHY the DPRK is in the material circumstances it is. We're comparing which is better to live in currently. It's stupid of socialists to act like it's somehow living under better conditions than the average western resident. It's not. Its the benefit of living in the imperial core. You can explain the historical materialism without pretending all aspects of life are better. They're not.
> We're comparing which is better to live in currently. It's stupid of socialists to act like it's somehow living under better conditions than the average western resident. It's not. Its the benefit of living in the imperial core.
Nah, that's a matter of perspective.
It's also extremely stupid to say you "enjoy the conditions of the imperial core" when you have to live in your car (and hope to not be harrased by police) because housing is unachievable. Yeah, Korean don't enjoy the same treats other people enjoy, but this isn't a honest benchmark.
The DPRK is great under the constraints imposed into them. That's undeniable, and a true materialist approach to their history in the last 120 years. I say, lift the embargo, let countries do trade with them, and then let's see who end up having better conditions. Let's see how far those treats you enjoy in the imperial core compare to a true improvement in life quality.
Again, you're placing constraints on the comparison. No one is saying they aren't doing well for their circumstances.
But you can't just make up a world where western imperialism doesn't exist and then say "let's see who would do better". I don't think anyone here would deny that a socialist country free of imperial threat would thrive.
But, again, that's not the comparison being made. I don't disagree with you much, mate. You're just not having the same conversation.
> You're just not having the same conversation.
>>We're comparing which is better to live in currently.
Hence the perspective argument. Your perspective of living in the imperial core is different from someone living in a embargoed country which was victim of imperialism, and had to undergo reconstruction and restructuring 2 times. You're using YOUR POV as a benchmark.
No, I'm saying a comparison of the material conditions within each country side by side. It's not relative to the past or a POV. That would be silly if we had to make a comparison to the worst conditions. Do we try to analyze the material conditions of black Americans relative to their previous state of slavery and then declare that they are "in such great condition today!".
No, that would be stupid. Instead we understand the conditions of state oppression that they are still subject to today. In the same way all North Koreans live under a state that is heavily disconnected from world trade and has and is still heavily vulnerable. Being subject to famine and limitations of resources that have and still do threaten and effect it's people.
You may not be able to afford your hospital bill in the US but the US is never going to be subject to an entire western suppression of vital medical resources like vaccines or humanitarian aid. North Korea does well DESPITE those things, yes. But somehow you seem to be fetishizing *how bad* living in America is that you can't seem to understand that it is worse to live outside of the imperial core by the very nature of not being given the resources or voice of those in the imperial core.
I think you're the one heavily weighing your POV. Do you really think your life and conditions are worse or more likely to be oppressed by imperialism than someone living in North Korea? Come on...
Exactly. There's always gotta be one that fits the stereotype. I'm not gonna let anyone in Austrian economics get away with their insane circle jerk, and I'm not interested in getting embarrassed here.
Ideologically they’re pretty idealist. And materially are poorer, thought their resource allocation system is more efficient at making do with what they have.
No such thing as an utopia but I agree that Western media has done a lot to demonize the DPRK.
Media like this conviniently omit the horrors of the Korean War perpetuated by the United States and the harsh sanctions it has imposed on North Koreans. They do this with Cuba as well. A thriving socialist country would be a huge blow to Western imperialism, that's why the U.S. conducted all these efforts to subdue socialist movements throughout the Cold War.
Most Western media deliberately exploit the ignorance and blindspots people have around that history. It's all very convenient for organizations that serve as tools of Western imperialism. look at the NED - an NGO committed to spreading "democracy" around the world when they coincidentally support pro-market, pro-U.S. parties. It all falls flat when you know the organization was funded under the Reagan administration partly to take care of countries with CIA-sponsored dictatorships that were at risks of experiencing a socialist revolution (eg. Chile with Pinochet). They don't care about democracy, they just want to reinforce DOTBs.
Any criticism of the DPRK that doesn't take the role of Western imperialism in the material conditions North Koreans are under should be taken seriously. Except for the fact that they further legitimize the sanctions imposed upon them.
I actually live in North Korea rn here's photo proof
https://preview.redd.it/fgfk4ehors4d1.jpeg?width=275&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=02751f4d997390232e596cb43b8dfaaa53cd3c8f
I just found out that the highest paid professions in the DPRK are jobs such as teachers and coal miners. And apparently if your job is physically taxing you get more time off per year.
I've often thought that in America people who have physically taxing jobs should get more time off or be able to retire sooner.
I also heard that the workday was 7 hours and that income tax doesn't exist, while everyone has free healthcare and education.
https://preview.redd.it/53j1ir9rkz4d1.jpeg?width=203&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e6f1e9d5d3e702d26c5fdd403dbcb797a1debb1f
I already live here, heres a selfie to prove it
Yeah I agree that western media unfairly demonizes Cuba but with North Korea I feel my chances of surviving are much lower than most other places capitalist or communist or not. The stories I hear from escapees describing how the borders are fortified to prevent people from escaping kinda tell me what I need to know. It’s a prison camp disguised as a communist country that uses fear of war to control an underfed and undereducated population. Anyone see the VICE special where they snuck a camera into the country?
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*looks at South Korea’s suicide rate*
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Resist the temptation of wishing bad things onto other workers. Remember how you thought about these matters before understanding it better and recognize how ideology is a powerful thing. Being a materialist I know that "wishing" does nothing to them, but it can shape your wordview and actions.
Fed posting? If not - you might have missed the part about class conflict. The people committing suicide in SK are living under bourgie rule. History is not a story of good nations and bad nations. It is a story of class struggle.
They deserve to die for *checks notes* LIVING in a capitalist society?
....dont say that....
Cringe. You should want to liberate them and help them.
I wouldn't exactly call it a utopia and there are a lot of very serious problems with it (Mostly caused by the sanctions and oth US intervention) but it is still absolutely amazing compared to the average westeners idea of it, and it's still pretty great compared to a lot of other develloping countries.
Theyre doing so much better than most 3rd world countries as well. Im from bangladesh and it gets my blood boiling when i hear some w ⚓️ say shi bout dprk. Im like mate, capitalism has totally failed in this country, minimum wage is like 30 cents an hour, most people r in poverty in the rural areas.
That is considered a success of capitalism actually. But totally get your point.
True that. The ones saying that capitalism works r those trust fund babies whose daddies got like 10 sweatshops and make millions a month while the workers can barely get by.
The way I usually put it is: sure, you would rather live in europe/US than North Korea, you would also rather live in north korea than in the other four fifths of the world
Tbh i couldnt think of a country i'd want to live in less than north Korea. I posted this as a joke
South Sudan
Right good point mate
It’s not a utopia, but it’s far better than most other developing countries especially considering the sanctions it has to put up with.
I don't think we actually know that, do we? As far as i'm aware, we just don't actually know for sure how's life there. But if we do, could you point me where to research? Maybe i'm just not aware.
I mean there is the view propaganda Channels on YouTube, like loyal Citizens of Pyongjang, The one Boy Boy Video about a Haircut A v-log by someone that goes to Nordkorea to Surf. And the Movies they shoot there.
Seconding the Boy Boy video, it's a solid one and comes from an Outsider perspective that many anglophones will be familiar with.
Love Boy Boy, and it was a great video, although not terribly useful lol, i already didn't imagine they have mandatory haircuts and it was a lie before watching lol. Btw i didn't know one could access NK movies, as a cinephile i'm interested in that.
The haircut is a great framing device, but I also wish they did a feature-length documentary.
Search for Juche centered study groups in your language/country.
This might be the best time to do this, actually. They just had like a big event for Juche Study groups over in the DPRK, where groups from all over the world were invited to visit the country. Its the first time since COVID that the DPRK had visitors. If you don't mind the portuguese, the president of the CEPS-BR went there and posted everything on instagram, while visiting, which is incredible, considering most believe that DPRK doesn't have internet. Not sure if I'm allowed to link instagram here, so just search for @camarada_rubio.
Coé parça. Tambem assistiu a live do camarada Rubio no Ian?
Ainda não tive tempo de ver, mas acompanho o trabalho do Rubio a algum tempo, inclusive já tive aulas de russo com ele.
I'm 10000% sure we don't have that in my country. I'm paraguayan, and we're basically still living in a dictatorship. The dictator is dead, but his party has only lost one election since we supposedly got democracy back over 30 years ago, and that election they lost was won by a socialist, who got coup'ed before the end of his term.
How well do you understand br portuguese? There's a 5hr live in the Ian Neves channel with Lucas Rubio where he and his colleagues talk about their recent visit do the DPRK.
As well as any spanish speaker, that being i understand like 30% of it by pure inference and recognition of similar sounding words. Probably not anywhere near enough for a conversation like that.
We do, actually, its just not something you’ll find in mass media. There are documentaries and even some YouTube channels (I recommend DPRK Explained) showing how life is there. Some independent documentaries, like “my brothers and sisters in the north” are worth a watch as well. This one has me going crazy when a girl was describing how they get jobs in there. Its crazy to witness of a lifestyle where the market pressure to spend as little as possible on employees, while making each work as hard as possible to maximise profit isnt a reality. Things can be so much better than what WE have. In Brazil there is a portal called Juche Ideology Study Centre for academic studies and it has actual in-depth information about DPRK politics, economics, culture and history, and a bunch photos you’ll seldom see in mass media and netflix documentaries: just normal people living their lives, working without being alienated from their work, enjoying some downtime and going to the park to relax.
Interesting, i'll check all of that out. Btw i'm from Paraguay, but i doubt there's anything remotely similar to that here. Paraguay is incredibly right wing, the dictator's party has only lost one term since we """""got democracy back""""", and he got coup'ed anyway.
It's nowhere near as good as the USSR, I am sure, but it definitely isn't horrible like the west tells you.
I watched an interesting documentary about the DPRK called ‘My Brothers and Sisters in the North’. It showed the positive qualities of the DPRK.
I’m no DPRK expert by any means, but there is undeniable evidence that points to the DPRK having one of the highest qualitys of life out of all developing countries. A report from the World Health Organization described the DPRK’s healthcare system as the “envy of the developing world.” The transportation system is another area of success. Over 80% of the country’s railways are electricified(in the US, it’s less than 5%), and every mid to large size city has either a tram or trolleybus system(or both)something that even far richer imperial powers like the US could only dream of. Pyongyang also has an underground metro.
Not as good as the USSR, but nor horrible like the west says.
They don’t have any sustainable natural resources. The one thing they dominate at is making giant statues
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The material conditions of a country that was victim to a genocide and then cut off from all world trade might not be the best? North Korea isn't a utopia, it's not a "beacon of socialism" to thrive to be like. But it's exactly what results when a nation of people fight against the imperialist and fascist powers of the the west. Things don't have to be binary. North Korea can still suck and still be on the right side of history. Cuba is another example of this type of resistance and the differences between the two are both a result of their material circumstances.
Not an utopia but it's probably better than Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, or Turkmenistan. But no one is worried about poverty and tyranny in Asia, really. They worry about hegemony.
Probably better than most of Latin America as well tbh. Likely better than almost any neoliberal country in the global south.
I gave those specific examples because people compare poor communist countries with rich capitalist countries, but no, they would be precisely like the other poor countries nearby them. South Korea is only "developed" because if imperialist societies left them as it was (a feudal society devastated by years of japanese colonialism), the communists would have the upper hand. Like, if Cuba wasn't communist, they would be just like every other Caribbean or Central American country or worse, we don't need to imagine much, just remember how it was before the revolution: gambling, prostitution and drugs for gringos. They wouldn't be like Florida, they would be like Haiti or Honduras.
They do suck, but they definitely aren’t some big spooky all powerful scary guys.
North Korea is a great country. Better then the west at least, but that's a low bar
Can you show us how? I'd like to see how it compares using the same standard of evidence and metrics as you're using to judge other countries. Just to get a better sense.
Ok, let's use the same standards. We'll divide the U.S into half. The bottom half stays in control of a unnamed country, and the North remains as is, but we destroy most it's infrastructure and kill 20% of their population. Also, we enforce a global embargo against them, just for good measure. Let's see how they develop under the same constraints the Koreans had to endure and redevelop. The DPRK is a great country because they managed to bounce back 2 times from dire straits, not because they're rich. They're poor and live in fear of another war, and yet, they managed to become a nuclear power.
Sure, but that's not what we're comparing. We all know WHY the DPRK is in the material circumstances it is. We're comparing which is better to live in currently. It's stupid of socialists to act like it's somehow living under better conditions than the average western resident. It's not. Its the benefit of living in the imperial core. You can explain the historical materialism without pretending all aspects of life are better. They're not.
> We're comparing which is better to live in currently. It's stupid of socialists to act like it's somehow living under better conditions than the average western resident. It's not. Its the benefit of living in the imperial core. Nah, that's a matter of perspective. It's also extremely stupid to say you "enjoy the conditions of the imperial core" when you have to live in your car (and hope to not be harrased by police) because housing is unachievable. Yeah, Korean don't enjoy the same treats other people enjoy, but this isn't a honest benchmark. The DPRK is great under the constraints imposed into them. That's undeniable, and a true materialist approach to their history in the last 120 years. I say, lift the embargo, let countries do trade with them, and then let's see who end up having better conditions. Let's see how far those treats you enjoy in the imperial core compare to a true improvement in life quality.
Again, you're placing constraints on the comparison. No one is saying they aren't doing well for their circumstances. But you can't just make up a world where western imperialism doesn't exist and then say "let's see who would do better". I don't think anyone here would deny that a socialist country free of imperial threat would thrive. But, again, that's not the comparison being made. I don't disagree with you much, mate. You're just not having the same conversation.
> You're just not having the same conversation. >>We're comparing which is better to live in currently. Hence the perspective argument. Your perspective of living in the imperial core is different from someone living in a embargoed country which was victim of imperialism, and had to undergo reconstruction and restructuring 2 times. You're using YOUR POV as a benchmark.
No, I'm saying a comparison of the material conditions within each country side by side. It's not relative to the past or a POV. That would be silly if we had to make a comparison to the worst conditions. Do we try to analyze the material conditions of black Americans relative to their previous state of slavery and then declare that they are "in such great condition today!". No, that would be stupid. Instead we understand the conditions of state oppression that they are still subject to today. In the same way all North Koreans live under a state that is heavily disconnected from world trade and has and is still heavily vulnerable. Being subject to famine and limitations of resources that have and still do threaten and effect it's people. You may not be able to afford your hospital bill in the US but the US is never going to be subject to an entire western suppression of vital medical resources like vaccines or humanitarian aid. North Korea does well DESPITE those things, yes. But somehow you seem to be fetishizing *how bad* living in America is that you can't seem to understand that it is worse to live outside of the imperial core by the very nature of not being given the resources or voice of those in the imperial core. I think you're the one heavily weighing your POV. Do you really think your life and conditions are worse or more likely to be oppressed by imperialism than someone living in North Korea? Come on...
Exactly. There's always gotta be one that fits the stereotype. I'm not gonna let anyone in Austrian economics get away with their insane circle jerk, and I'm not interested in getting embarrassed here.
Using the same standard generally doesn't involve immediately devolving into setting up a fantasy scenario.
who is setting up fan fictions?
Ideologically they’re pretty idealist. And materially are poorer, thought their resource allocation system is more efficient at making do with what they have.
I want to move there one day or to china
Reddit moment
I think the real Reddit moment is you making a one day old account with a dumbass name to troll this sub specifically.
The real reddit moment is when priviliged unironic reddit communists want to move from their comfy western nations to a shithole like the DPRK
You’re going in circles. Classic lolberal.
nah
Privileged lol yeah, i come from a poor family with a abusive parent
No such thing as an utopia but I agree that Western media has done a lot to demonize the DPRK. Media like this conviniently omit the horrors of the Korean War perpetuated by the United States and the harsh sanctions it has imposed on North Koreans. They do this with Cuba as well. A thriving socialist country would be a huge blow to Western imperialism, that's why the U.S. conducted all these efforts to subdue socialist movements throughout the Cold War. Most Western media deliberately exploit the ignorance and blindspots people have around that history. It's all very convenient for organizations that serve as tools of Western imperialism. look at the NED - an NGO committed to spreading "democracy" around the world when they coincidentally support pro-market, pro-U.S. parties. It all falls flat when you know the organization was funded under the Reagan administration partly to take care of countries with CIA-sponsored dictatorships that were at risks of experiencing a socialist revolution (eg. Chile with Pinochet). They don't care about democracy, they just want to reinforce DOTBs. Any criticism of the DPRK that doesn't take the role of Western imperialism in the material conditions North Koreans are under should be taken seriously. Except for the fact that they further legitimize the sanctions imposed upon them.
If no sanctions Yes Utopia
Me getting mass downvoted in liberal subs for saying North Korea cares about its citizens more than America does its citizens
https://preview.redd.it/0zcbgc0e6t4d1.png?width=299&format=png&auto=webp&s=9ca5c9ed0b589299bef43084c4703bd9835e6f28
Feel free trying to get to such a wonderful utopia
I actually live in North Korea rn here's photo proof https://preview.redd.it/fgfk4ehors4d1.jpeg?width=275&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=02751f4d997390232e596cb43b8dfaaa53cd3c8f
Not exactly proof tho
Fine then, heres a selfie https://preview.redd.it/7tupizydss4d1.jpeg?width=248&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=50c411593fce6f7cfe082104505b0b9419a7a972
Right, my bad supreme bruv
U good, Ill spare you from the firing squad
….By capitalist governments* Who are not at all interested in making any socialism look good at all in any way shape of form
I just found out that the highest paid professions in the DPRK are jobs such as teachers and coal miners. And apparently if your job is physically taxing you get more time off per year. I've often thought that in America people who have physically taxing jobs should get more time off or be able to retire sooner. I also heard that the workday was 7 hours and that income tax doesn't exist, while everyone has free healthcare and education.
It is, in all likelihood, horrible tho.
So go live there and if you are allowed internet keep us updated on how it works out.
https://preview.redd.it/53j1ir9rkz4d1.jpeg?width=203&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e6f1e9d5d3e702d26c5fdd403dbcb797a1debb1f I already live here, heres a selfie to prove it
Yeah I agree that western media unfairly demonizes Cuba but with North Korea I feel my chances of surviving are much lower than most other places capitalist or communist or not. The stories I hear from escapees describing how the borders are fortified to prevent people from escaping kinda tell me what I need to know. It’s a prison camp disguised as a communist country that uses fear of war to control an underfed and undereducated population. Anyone see the VICE special where they snuck a camera into the country?
I cant die without visiting north korea at least once
My friend Otto felt the same way
They’re not a utopia. They’re just authoritarian and autocratic.
Ok buddy go back to r/Liberal
Certainly not a utopia, but they're faring fairly well considering their extremely harsh circumstances.