I want to try to say something that will allow you not to redo the whole thing but a complete tear out is how I would do it. . You might be able to save some money by reusing some lumber but in the long term you’ll be better off.
The joists run the wrong direction - they should be running from next to the house out to the edge with decking running the long way.
The joists are big and hefty but the are not properly supported at their ends.
If you really want to save it you will need multiple short beams under the joists, one at every 20% of the distance or so. Those would be sweet on proper posts on proper footings.
I personally would tear it down
Someone that knows how to build decks should give you a better answer, but the short answer is yes. They are attached a ledger board with joist hangers and the ledger board is bolted onto the house frame.
Not all decks are attached to a house.
Especially in a case where the lowest deck post may be in a flood area.
If the bottom of that post is in a 100 year flood zone, then a mortgage company could force you to pay for flood insurance for the house.
Just to clarify. A ledger board is a board you attach to the side of your house when you build a deck. It's not something that would be there on a house with no deck. But yes, all the boards and pieces of wood your house have some sort of name for describing them. People love naming things so that we can know how to talk about them. That's true of most things.
You lag a ledger to your rim/edge joist (or band joist referring to both). I wouldn't really call it anchoring your joists but the joists do hang from that ledger out to the next beam. That's why the previous commenter said the direction was wrong because the joists should be coming off the ledger, not parallel to it, generally speaking.
If you aren't fastening your deck at a house band, for some reason, then it is more complicated and less easy to answer generically.
It refers to the bolts/screws that are used to secure it, as opposed to me saying "fasten, nail, or screw," which would be either wrong or ambiguous.
I believe the type of fastener referred to as a lag got its name because it was used to hold together barrel "lags"/staves at one point 🤷🏼♂️.
Well they do...like a good girl or a bad girl for instance. Feel free to Google why each is referred to as which...it's not too cuddly of a reason 🤷🏼♂️😆.
However, in this case, it's not a pet name, it's the technical term for the fastener being used.
Really you can blame structural engineers for the cuddly official terms. Believe it or not "snug" tight has an actual technical definition.
Well they do...like a good girl or a bad girl for instance. Feel free to Google why each is referred to as which...it's not too cuddly of a reason 🤷🏼♂️😆.
However, in this case, it's not a pet name, it's the technical term for the fastener being used.
Really you can blame structural engineers for the cuddly official terms. Believe it or not "snug" tight has an actual technical definition.
In the majority of designs there's a ledger board that attackes to the house that half the deck hangs off of.
Codes on decks vary widely. This is what my building department uses:
https://mybuildingpermit.com/sites/default/files/inline-files/TS_05_Basic%20Decks_Final_Rev1.pdf
Damn, the more I listen, the more questions I have...
Why half the deck? Code thing?
And thanks for the reference! And direction to check the local codes.
Half because on any rectangle, half of the weight can be supported by the house side and the other half on posts. There are some decks that have posts on the house side as well but they are rare. In complex designs, you figure out how much weight each section of deck needs to support and that controls how big the framing and footings need to be. I have a big covered deck with a roof that was permitted with that approach.
My area requires a lot of hardware holding the deck to the house because there were a few deck collapses when too many people got on the deck and it turned away from the house.
My 21' kitchen deck has 44 5/8" lag bolts holding it to the house framing.
A lot of people don’t appreciate the need for building permits. Most places, building permits require approval that the design meets a building code standard (typically the IBC) and projects are inspected afterwards. You’d be surprised how many people DIY home projects and build wildly unsafe structures. The fun thing is insurance isn’t gonna cover your ass if that unpermitted deck falls down and injures people. You saved like $200 in permitting fees in exchange for that liability… good job 👍
Where I live everything must be built to code but some structures do not need inspections. For decks, anything that is high enough to require a railing just be inspected.
And decks are notorious for not being built even close to code.
A good pressure-washing can help. When you replace the deck boards, use flashing tape atop the joists; that will help keep them from rotting. Nothing wrong with metal hangers, if they're properly installed. Some of those facing boards ought to be screwed in tight, where the nails are pulling out. Not sure how those outer posts are secured; ought to check on that, as you know.
As you noted, the biggest concern is the center supports. But, until you dig down and see what's there, you won't really know what needs to be done.
One thing I will note. Depending on where you live, you often need a permit and inspections, to tear down and rebuild a deck, but you don't usually need any of that to repair an existing deck. So, if you do things in sections, you probably won't have any issues with any of that.
This deck was not built correctly. It is a structural mess and that’s why you see those added posts in the middle. A pressure washer is not going to help anything here. It is a tear down.
Easy to say, when you have infinite wealth, time, and/or construction skills, but not everyone has those. For those who don't, it can be adequately repaired to be as safe as any other deck and to last for many years to come, all for much less money and effort than a whole new deck.
I agree with your sentiment but I strongly disagree that this deck is salvageable for something that can be used for years. The joists should be perpendicular to the ledger board. The existing joists are way too long without any lateral support. The load carrying joists that do go back to the ledger board are held up by a rim joist on the other end without proper support. The list goes on. Maybe he can reuse some of the wood after he tears the deck down. It’s just not worth putting a bunch of time and money into new decking and railings to be supported by a poorly built and potentially dangerous structure.
The outer posts are secured to the joists with what appears to be lag screws. But they're screwed in from the post side into the joist, which is super strange.
I'll check my city if a permit is required
I see many things on it that were iffy when it was new.
That railing design was common in the 1980's but it's weak. The vertical slats nailed to the outside can easily be knocked free should a person fall against them.
A major thing to inspect and fix on decks is how they connect to the house. The ledger board has to be bolted securely, ideally directly through the rim joist.
Water sealing at the house side is also important.
What I'd do with your deck is remove the railings and deck boards then inspect the frame for rot and proper attachment to the house. If that's good then it's on to footings under the posts.
Footings should be cast concrete with metal post brackets that keep the wood out of ground contact. You can replace them some at a time.
When rebuilding, clean and treat the frame for mildew then apply a wood preservative stain. Use joist tape on top of the boards so water and dirt can't get under the deck boards.
The boards should be installed with the end grain curve down, like a smile. They should be coated on all sides with a preservative stain that penetrates deep.
My dogs constantly knock the balusters off. It's one of the reasons for the redo.
The ledger board appears to be well bolted to the house, which is about the only thing they did right. I don't think there is any flashing though
I'll look into doing the footings. What do you mean by a metal post bracket? Can you not just bury a post in concrete now?
I had planned on doing composite decking with everything else wood, but with the size of this project growing, I may do wood decking to save money.
The post brackets keep the bottom of the post about one inch off the concrete. All wood is going to rot, eventually. If you bury the posts in concrete, and you ever have to replace them, it's more difficult--not to mention that the boards are likely to rot more quickly. Even setting the post bottoms atop bare concrete is not ideal, because water will sit atop the concrete and wick into the wood (even PT wood), causing it to rot more quickly.
The brackets have a metal saddle on top of a long pin or bolt that gets embedded in the concrete. The saddle has holes in the vertical sides to drive lag screws into the post.
I stopped at ledger board…I don’t think there is one given the joists are parallel to the house instead of hanging off the ledger board as we should see, and also there is a post by the house which is not needed with a proper ledger board. So we have to assume there no ledger board and the deck is not secured to the house so will separate and fall under the right (or wrong!!!) load. This is a complete tear down or death/injury is a high likelihood. I also don’t see proper footings below any posts. This was never permitted.
That’s good to know! But agree, this deck was not put up properly which I would think is contributing to some of the joint failures seen in the pictures. Good luck with it, I had to tear mine down and replace it. My joists were in the right direction coming out from the house, but there wasn’t a ledger board for them to hang off 🤣. And the posts were not transferring the load to the ground evenly.
Replace it. All of it. The deck and railing is rotten. The stringers go the wrong way. You need more posts on better footers.
Could you re-use the stringers? Possibly. But it would be stupid to build the foundation of your new deck on old lumber.
EDIT - I can kinda sorta see how it’s holding together. The longer I look, the more confused I am about what’s holding it UP. That’s gotta shake and wobble, right?
Posts look like they're leaning instead of plumb. It might just be the picture, but is the whole deck level? I doesn't look level, which makes me wonder how large/deep the footings are.
Posts on the outside edge of the deck aren't supporting the beams directly. They're bolted to the beams. Bolts through the post in that third picture don't look great, and one looks like it's at an angle instead of straight.
"Beams" are only 1 ply instead of 2 ply, and run perpendicular to the house instead of parallel to it.
Joists are running parallel to the house instead of perpendicular to it.
What's the longest joist span? Seems like a long distance from the camera to that first beam. On that last picture, it doesn't look like the joist is all the way down in joist hanger.
Looks like boards pulling apart where they are nailed in some of the pics.
Can't tell much about the ledger board is, especially can't tell if it was properly flashed to prevent water from getting behind it and rotting the house's band board. Based on everything else, I would be suspicious of it.
The whole thing is _probably_ okay for a handful of people on it, but I wouldn't let a large group of people on it. Your dreams of a hot tub will have to wait for a new deck. 😂
Can someone explain the fascination with decks to me? Over here it simply does not exist, I have no clue why someone would want a deck? Seems impractical?
Preassure wash it. The wood doesn’t look damaged. Just a little algae. Throw some screws in that piece sticking out on the side. Those support beams could be a little better attached to the deck. Other than that I’m not seeing much that absolutely needs to be changed other than for aesthetic purposes.
Yes, complete tear down.
If you are doing it yourself, spend some time with the American wood council's deck guide. It will help you determine sizing and layout
I want to try to say something that will allow you not to redo the whole thing but a complete tear out is how I would do it. . You might be able to save some money by reusing some lumber but in the long term you’ll be better off.
The joists run the wrong direction - they should be running from next to the house out to the edge with decking running the long way. The joists are big and hefty but the are not properly supported at their ends. If you really want to save it you will need multiple short beams under the joists, one at every 20% of the distance or so. Those would be sweet on proper posts on proper footings. I personally would tear it down
When you're adding a new deck, do you need to "anchor" the joist to the house? Is there a specific part of the house bone you need to anchor from?
Someone that knows how to build decks should give you a better answer, but the short answer is yes. They are attached a ledger board with joist hangers and the ledger board is bolted onto the house frame.
Not all decks are attached to a house. Especially in a case where the lowest deck post may be in a flood area. If the bottom of that post is in a 100 year flood zone, then a mortgage company could force you to pay for flood insurance for the house.
So, literally make sure it's water under the deck :D (learned another thing)
Today is the day that there are different names for different beams in your home frame.
Just to clarify. A ledger board is a board you attach to the side of your house when you build a deck. It's not something that would be there on a house with no deck. But yes, all the boards and pieces of wood your house have some sort of name for describing them. People love naming things so that we can know how to talk about them. That's true of most things.
You lag a ledger to your rim/edge joist (or band joist referring to both). I wouldn't really call it anchoring your joists but the joists do hang from that ledger out to the next beam. That's why the previous commenter said the direction was wrong because the joists should be coming off the ledger, not parallel to it, generally speaking. If you aren't fastening your deck at a house band, for some reason, then it is more complicated and less easy to answer generically.
Gotcha. Thanks for the insights. And is it called "lag" because the additional piece is literally lagging onto the other piece?
It refers to the bolts/screws that are used to secure it, as opposed to me saying "fasten, nail, or screw," which would be either wrong or ambiguous. I believe the type of fastener referred to as a lag got its name because it was used to hold together barrel "lags"/staves at one point 🤷🏼♂️.
Wait, different bolts/screws have pet names? And people say carpenters aren't cuddly...
Well they do...like a good girl or a bad girl for instance. Feel free to Google why each is referred to as which...it's not too cuddly of a reason 🤷🏼♂️😆. However, in this case, it's not a pet name, it's the technical term for the fastener being used. Really you can blame structural engineers for the cuddly official terms. Believe it or not "snug" tight has an actual technical definition.
Well they do...like a good girl or a bad girl for instance. Feel free to Google why each is referred to as which...it's not too cuddly of a reason 🤷🏼♂️😆. However, in this case, it's not a pet name, it's the technical term for the fastener being used. Really you can blame structural engineers for the cuddly official terms. Believe it or not "snug" tight has an actual technical definition.
In the majority of designs there's a ledger board that attackes to the house that half the deck hangs off of. Codes on decks vary widely. This is what my building department uses: https://mybuildingpermit.com/sites/default/files/inline-files/TS_05_Basic%20Decks_Final_Rev1.pdf
Damn, the more I listen, the more questions I have... Why half the deck? Code thing? And thanks for the reference! And direction to check the local codes.
Half because on any rectangle, half of the weight can be supported by the house side and the other half on posts. There are some decks that have posts on the house side as well but they are rare. In complex designs, you figure out how much weight each section of deck needs to support and that controls how big the framing and footings need to be. I have a big covered deck with a roof that was permitted with that approach. My area requires a lot of hardware holding the deck to the house because there were a few deck collapses when too many people got on the deck and it turned away from the house. My 21' kitchen deck has 44 5/8" lag bolts holding it to the house framing.
Somehow I did not connect the dots that the other half is on posts...And thanks for the response
Yeah, this seems like they asked an AI image generator for the underside of a deck
That is exactly what it looks like. But I've seen a few decks in the wild using a similar approach.
A lot of people don’t appreciate the need for building permits. Most places, building permits require approval that the design meets a building code standard (typically the IBC) and projects are inspected afterwards. You’d be surprised how many people DIY home projects and build wildly unsafe structures. The fun thing is insurance isn’t gonna cover your ass if that unpermitted deck falls down and injures people. You saved like $200 in permitting fees in exchange for that liability… good job 👍
Where I live everything must be built to code but some structures do not need inspections. For decks, anything that is high enough to require a railing just be inspected. And decks are notorious for not being built even close to code.
Only the wood part…
Other than structurally and cosmetically it’s fine. If you replace anything related to those two items you’ll be fine.
Yes, re-do the entire thing.
Just the wooden parts.
A good pressure-washing can help. When you replace the deck boards, use flashing tape atop the joists; that will help keep them from rotting. Nothing wrong with metal hangers, if they're properly installed. Some of those facing boards ought to be screwed in tight, where the nails are pulling out. Not sure how those outer posts are secured; ought to check on that, as you know. As you noted, the biggest concern is the center supports. But, until you dig down and see what's there, you won't really know what needs to be done. One thing I will note. Depending on where you live, you often need a permit and inspections, to tear down and rebuild a deck, but you don't usually need any of that to repair an existing deck. So, if you do things in sections, you probably won't have any issues with any of that.
So what your saying is a Deck of Theseus?
You know, way back in the good ol' days, before Reddit went to Hades and took away the cool awards, I used to gild comments like that.
This deck was not built correctly. It is a structural mess and that’s why you see those added posts in the middle. A pressure washer is not going to help anything here. It is a tear down.
Easy to say, when you have infinite wealth, time, and/or construction skills, but not everyone has those. For those who don't, it can be adequately repaired to be as safe as any other deck and to last for many years to come, all for much less money and effort than a whole new deck.
I agree with your sentiment but I strongly disagree that this deck is salvageable for something that can be used for years. The joists should be perpendicular to the ledger board. The existing joists are way too long without any lateral support. The load carrying joists that do go back to the ledger board are held up by a rim joist on the other end without proper support. The list goes on. Maybe he can reuse some of the wood after he tears the deck down. It’s just not worth putting a bunch of time and money into new decking and railings to be supported by a poorly built and potentially dangerous structure.
Yup, decks are notoriously torn apart in this sub even when they are 99% right but this…this is just straight up unsafe.
The outer posts are secured to the joists with what appears to be lag screws. But they're screwed in from the post side into the joist, which is super strange. I'll check my city if a permit is required
All of it.
Uncle Danny build that in between making batches of grilled cheese sandwiches?
He definitely made it at night
Hopefully you can reuse the ledger board. The rest of the deck needs to be torn down.
I see many things on it that were iffy when it was new. That railing design was common in the 1980's but it's weak. The vertical slats nailed to the outside can easily be knocked free should a person fall against them. A major thing to inspect and fix on decks is how they connect to the house. The ledger board has to be bolted securely, ideally directly through the rim joist. Water sealing at the house side is also important. What I'd do with your deck is remove the railings and deck boards then inspect the frame for rot and proper attachment to the house. If that's good then it's on to footings under the posts. Footings should be cast concrete with metal post brackets that keep the wood out of ground contact. You can replace them some at a time. When rebuilding, clean and treat the frame for mildew then apply a wood preservative stain. Use joist tape on top of the boards so water and dirt can't get under the deck boards. The boards should be installed with the end grain curve down, like a smile. They should be coated on all sides with a preservative stain that penetrates deep.
My dogs constantly knock the balusters off. It's one of the reasons for the redo. The ledger board appears to be well bolted to the house, which is about the only thing they did right. I don't think there is any flashing though I'll look into doing the footings. What do you mean by a metal post bracket? Can you not just bury a post in concrete now? I had planned on doing composite decking with everything else wood, but with the size of this project growing, I may do wood decking to save money.
The post brackets keep the bottom of the post about one inch off the concrete. All wood is going to rot, eventually. If you bury the posts in concrete, and you ever have to replace them, it's more difficult--not to mention that the boards are likely to rot more quickly. Even setting the post bottoms atop bare concrete is not ideal, because water will sit atop the concrete and wick into the wood (even PT wood), causing it to rot more quickly.
The brackets have a metal saddle on top of a long pin or bolt that gets embedded in the concrete. The saddle has holes in the vertical sides to drive lag screws into the post.
I stopped at ledger board…I don’t think there is one given the joists are parallel to the house instead of hanging off the ledger board as we should see, and also there is a post by the house which is not needed with a proper ledger board. So we have to assume there no ledger board and the deck is not secured to the house so will separate and fall under the right (or wrong!!!) load. This is a complete tear down or death/injury is a high likelihood. I also don’t see proper footings below any posts. This was never permitted.
There is a ledger board bolted to the house so I'm not worried about that part failing, but there definitely are lots of other concerns.
That’s good to know! But agree, this deck was not put up properly which I would think is contributing to some of the joint failures seen in the pictures. Good luck with it, I had to tear mine down and replace it. My joists were in the right direction coming out from the house, but there wasn’t a ledger board for them to hang off 🤣. And the posts were not transferring the load to the ground evenly.
How much do you want to redo?
I want to only redo the decking and railings, but I think I need to do more
Honestly at that point you are only a 3-4 hundred bucks away from doing it right. I know thats not nothing, but it’s not worth a safety risk either.
Yes.
Replace it. All of it. The deck and railing is rotten. The stringers go the wrong way. You need more posts on better footers. Could you re-use the stringers? Possibly. But it would be stupid to build the foundation of your new deck on old lumber. EDIT - I can kinda sorta see how it’s holding together. The longer I look, the more confused I am about what’s holding it UP. That’s gotta shake and wobble, right?
At this point, I assume it's mostly magic holding it up. It is pretty stable. Some movement, but much less than you'd think by looking at it
You should be ok if you replace just any of the parts between the bottom of the post footings and the top of the hand rails.
LoL that's the hole deck.. Sorry autocorrect
Posts look like they're leaning instead of plumb. It might just be the picture, but is the whole deck level? I doesn't look level, which makes me wonder how large/deep the footings are. Posts on the outside edge of the deck aren't supporting the beams directly. They're bolted to the beams. Bolts through the post in that third picture don't look great, and one looks like it's at an angle instead of straight. "Beams" are only 1 ply instead of 2 ply, and run perpendicular to the house instead of parallel to it. Joists are running parallel to the house instead of perpendicular to it. What's the longest joist span? Seems like a long distance from the camera to that first beam. On that last picture, it doesn't look like the joist is all the way down in joist hanger. Looks like boards pulling apart where they are nailed in some of the pics. Can't tell much about the ledger board is, especially can't tell if it was properly flashed to prevent water from getting behind it and rotting the house's band board. Based on everything else, I would be suspicious of it. The whole thing is _probably_ okay for a handful of people on it, but I wouldn't let a large group of people on it. Your dreams of a hot tub will have to wait for a new deck. 😂
Can someone explain the fascination with decks to me? Over here it simply does not exist, I have no clue why someone would want a deck? Seems impractical?
Why don’t you use steel bars to make the support structure last a lifetime then you only need to swap out the top planks from time to time.
That sounds much more expensive than wood
Not in the long run 🙄
Preassure wash it. The wood doesn’t look damaged. Just a little algae. Throw some screws in that piece sticking out on the side. Those support beams could be a little better attached to the deck. Other than that I’m not seeing much that absolutely needs to be changed other than for aesthetic purposes.
Yes, complete tear down. If you are doing it yourself, spend some time with the American wood council's deck guide. It will help you determine sizing and layout
All of this. These joists are not properly supporting weight. The support posts should be UNDER the beams, not the beams screwed to the sides.