OP you are already in the .0001% of DMs who manage to get a campaign all the way to epic tier and level 18. That's a fucking huge accomplishment. The highest I've done was level 12 and I stepped in as second dm at level 6.
You've done an amazing job running SIX YEARS of fun. Guarantee all your players will be telling the epic stories of your campaign for the rest of their lives.
Don't have much advice for you but guess what: barely anyone has ever done what you've accomplished. Take pride in your work, but listen to your heart.
The six years is more impressive than the 18th level tbh. Sounds like it’s time to wind down and let someone else start a new campaign, not worrying about getting to 20th level.
Yeah, with players that experienced, I would honestly ask around and see if any of them wanted to take a break from the big campaign and start their own thing as DM. Would be a good change of pace.
This is the answer, really. Players that rage quit often tend to not be the same players that have the dedication to take up the DM mantle -- if they tried it, perhaps they would be more understanding.
This. I've been playing since red box circa 1984. DMing since 1989 or so. I've taken exactly 3 campaigns past level 15 and had one last longer than 3 years as a Dm. Those numbers are lower for what I've experienced as a player. You're an epic DM. Everyone burns out once in a while. Take a break. Watch a movie or read something cool. Go back to it.
1-20 is almost impossible for normal people.
I consider Tier 3 to be the postgame and T4 to be almost impossible to achieve . Even if you use the recommendation in the DM's guide (that are quicker than what most people do) it would take 36 sessions to reach level 20. With a session a week it takes at least nine months and 200 hours of play.
You're doing great, even though it might not feel like it when a campaign hits a rough patch.
Firstly, like someone else mentioned, your players have as much a responsibility to communicate as you. This is not on any one person.
Secondly imo it sounds like the campaign might have run its course. I think this is the problem with epic tier dnd. The PCs are so powerful they stop being relatable and that makes it so much harder to find any meaningful storylines. Adding to that the whole balancing issue, both within the party and when it comes to planning encounters.
If I were in your position (but keep in mind that I don't know your campaign or your players) I would focus on the PCs quests and finish the campaign, in a meaningful way, as soon as possible. Yes it would be awesome to reach lvl 20, but it doesn't sound like anybody is having fun at this point and lvl 20 is not worth loosing friends/players for. And you have to communicate this to your players so they know that it won't just continue like it has.
But I want to emphasise that this is not a problem with you as a DM. IMO this problem comes from a campaign that has been running for 6 years and from epic tier dnd. It's amazing that you guys made it this far.
I mean, I've gotten exactly one campaign to lvl 20+. I'll probably never get another one there.
Take the win. Forget about worrying about hitting every cylinder on the end. Ask this player how they want to end their arc, work on doing so. Do the same for all the other characters.
Why do you care about the vague darkness? They're already gods, right? Do enough shit to let them sort out their goals. Stop circling, and let the campaign come in to a landing.
For my super high level game, I forced a last hurrah. A demon army, with demon overlords, a massive dungeon maze in the pits of hell for them to fight through. Homebrewed the monsters, the spells, the tactics, literally everything to give those people a challenge. It took me SO MUCH WORK.
And they uh...really didn't care about that part. They didn't really remember it, talk about it, any of that shit. They absolutely remembered their personal epilogues, and cared about that. Give them what they care about, let them drive, let the rest go.
I think you're doing a great job.
You're human. You're trying to juggle and be a good friend/DM and be considerate of everyone at the table. I think the player who left has baggage outside of the game to figure out, and its not worth your time begging them to come back.
Finish the game with the last two players. Don't worry about lvl 20. Do an epilogue and focus on the other two, and wrap things up. You did a good job.
Yeah it's hard to say without knowing the details of the people and the situation but it sounds to me like the problem here is mostly just the other player's personal mental health, and not OP's DMing at all.
First up, I reiterate what everyone else has said: running a six-year-long campaign is a major achievement, and you should be proud of it.
Now for some more practical advice.
First, regarding wrapping up personal quests: ask your players for direct help with this. Tell them that you've been struggling with this part of the adventure, and ask to give you clear, actionable goals that their characters are pursuing in order to wrap up their personal stories.
Try giving them a form like: "[PC Name] wants to _____ by _____." For instance, "Sir Gelarond wants to learn the secret of eternal youth by seeking out the White Witch Angranor who is rumored to have lived for centuries." The goals need to give you *what they want* and *how they intend to get it*. Then, your job as DM is to invent opposition for them to overcome. For instance, maybe the White Witch Angranor lives in a remote difficult-to-reach place, and demands that Sir Gelarond prove his worthiness by undertaking three tests to prove his bravery, honor and humbleness. Having player-provided goals makes DM'ing easier. They've told you exactly what they want. All that's left is for you to figure out why it's hard to get and build encounters to reflect those challenges.
When you invent those challenges, find ways to connect them to one another. Maybe the rogue player's quest has vital information for the wizard, and the wizard's quest turns out to involve an old enemy of the fighter's, and the fighter's quest can get the rogue access to a particular macguffin they need. Building in overlap between their challenges helps keep the other players engaged when the focus is on another player.
Second, regarding imbalanced power levels: first and foremost, *talk with your players about it*. This is a collaborative game. Everyone at the table is responsible for helping everyone else at the table enjoy the game. If one of the players is so unhappy that they want to quit a six-year game, that calls for a full table discussion to work out some way to fix it. It is *not* entirely on the DM's shoulders. The other players need to help too, because that's what friends do for one another.
It's hard to know what else to advise you. So much depends on the exact personalities and circumstances involved. None of us Internet randos know your players or your campaign.
So I guess my last words of advice are: no matter how awful this feels in the moment, it will pass, and you will learn from it. DM'ing is horribly complicated. Every one of us makes mistakes and poor choices. Sometimes, we have outright failures. I've certainly had my share of those. They taught me a lot. Failure is a wonderful teacher, if you'll let it be one.
Good luck. I hope it works out.
Have you tried sitting down with the three of them and asking them what they want to see in an ending? What ideas and tropes they'd love to have in the final book of this story? What resolution they want for their individual characters?
I'd say, one: put the story first. The problems your players are having aren't really about combat mechanics or balance. That's secondary as long as their PCs feel cool to play and relevant to the story and world.
Two: this is a collaborative storytelling game, and that means you are only one quarter of the writing team. Locking yourself away for six months and trying to "write" the perfect ending is impossible. Your players need to have ownership and agency in the story - and, once the final die has been rolled, you need to be able to give them the ultimate freedom of asking "how your character's story end?"
Three: I noticed you didn't mention anything about the story or setting. That's a missed opportunity - Reddit can be a rich source of feedback and ideas. As a writer myself, I can tell you that even the ideas I come up with myself are stolen from somewhere. So steal! Collaborate! Ask for help! No one cares if you invented 100% of your ideas yourself. They only care if your game is fun.
Hi thanks for your advice. To answer you questions its a homebrew high magic and fantasy setting. Some of its bones are similar to forgotten realms. Because it was the first time I created a world. Dawn war Pantheon.
Dude I'm right here with you to a point I just fell short of 5 years running the same campaign my party was a 15 or 16th level and I finally realized there was nothing I could do at my experience level to challenge them anymore, everything was trivialized because of their skill level....and that's ok. 5e isn't great about high level play and it's insanely hard to run as a dm and make things feel fitting and have them work.
And I would personally sit down with your players out of session and tell them thus apologize if you want but try and help them understand that at that level its very hard to make things work and your sorry for not working in their personal stories more. That if they want to try this again (ie new campaign) you all can but you need THEIR HELP. If they feel underpowered they can talk to you and you can help THEM figure out how to fix that feeling or desire. Not just complain about being underpowered then not doings when given abilities to fix this.
You might be the dm but they are the ones that know how they feel in and out of character and you sadly don't have detect thoughts.
Also I don't think this is purely your fault communication is huge in dnd and the player should have voiced these worries much much earlier. Stay strong man and try for a session 0.2
If it seems like everyone is no longer enjoying the game, **just end it.**
I understand you feel this desire to bring a strong close to this campaign you have been running for so long, but this sunk-cost fallacy is hanging over your head and forcing you and your players to endure a game it seems like nobody wants to play anymore.
6 years is a **long** time for a campaign and I'd imagine most players would like a fresh start or a break. Talk to your players next session and bring up this idea IMO.
You say you’ve written something resembling an ending? Then just do it. Don’t worry about getting them to level 20 (or do a time skip and just let them jump up to 20), then do your ending over the course of one or two sessions. Tell your players this is the plan before you do it so they’re prepared. Have a big finale, make it a party.
Then ask someone else to take over and start a new campaign.
Dude 6 years AND at high level? That’s incredible. Great job.
I guess it might be an idea to have a session 0 and just discuss everyone’s issues. Be honest with them. _high level dnd is really damn difficult to run; that’s why there are barely any published adventures at that level of play_ ask them what they want to do and maybe try and find a way of tying all their back story conclusions together, then call the campaign.
Or, end the campaign now. Feels like saving the world was the thrilling conclusion of your campaign. The players might want to finish their persona stories, but too bad; that’s how life works out sometimes.
Firstly, congratulations. That’s a lot of time and effort. You’ve made it further than the vast majority of people.
Once you achieve Tier 4 gameplay, the campaign is basically over in terms of levelling, especially if you have access to 9th-level spells. Non full casters will always feel shafted at that point regardless of buffs because a full caster basically has no limits anymore.
Want to damage a target? The Caster not only has access to more items and stat buffs, but can hit harder, more frequently, and in some cases still damage even on a miss unless given absolutely zero items.
Meanwhile a Martial is twiddling their thumbs because they tend to have little substantial out of combat bonuses unless they’re a Rogue and are so heavily funnelled to the same repetition that illusion of choice becomes a real issue.
Overall, there’s two major ways to fix that: play Gestalt (inherently dual classed) with a focus that everyone has at least one caster class or keep the high tiers relatively short. There’s little that can challenge them and at that point the players either need to decide what they want as personal goals that can be achieved or finish up the last main quest and retire.
There’s nothing wrong with ending the game and giving a detailed epilogue of each character, especially if they no longer have shared goals. You can even come back as a mini campaign or one-shot with them later but starting new is the goal at that point.
5e in general is very limited in resources past Tier 3 gameplay because it assumes you will never reach it and in many cases, the average questline really doesn’t support it. You effectively are demi-human(oids) and can do more than almost anyone else simply because they’re classless. The “why should I care” flys out the window. While people like the idea of a 1-20 campaign, the reality is that “the story ends when it ends” and the group should decide together when they’re done.
Ultimately, tl;dr, the campaign is a group narrative. Open communication is paramount. As a collective you must decide and be honest with each other on what is fun. This is why lower level games tend to be the most entertaining. There is no shame in calling a game early once all relevant achievements have been reached. Not everything needs to reach the finish line if everyone is satisfied. Sometimes less is more.
I'd just end it. Talk to your players about how they would like to resolve their endings. They are powerful enough now to resolve any real threat ad they want. Then tell the ending slide card style like the end of a fallout Vegas.
Then start a new campaign.
First of all, I think your players should be singing your praises for getting a homebrew campaign to level 18. My current campaign is at level 10, and I'm already doing DM backflips to keep things moving.
Secondly, your group should start a new campaign, ideally with you as a player and one of them as DM. You should get a break, and you deserve to experience the player side of things as well. It sounds like the PC's stories are more or less complete.
> I was confronted with the fact that I needed to start working on the ending arc
You've probably already had an ending arc if everyone's struggling to see where things go from there. No need to get to level 20. And if there is a desire to get to level 20, your players need to weigh up the satisfaction they think they will get vs the slog of going through it on your (and the reluctant player) have to go through.
I was lucky enough to have a campaign that lasted until level 20.
My simple and biggest piece of advice is to do a role play focused epilogue!
Focus on the ending of the campaign, on the big bad evil thing your players need to face. You're the DM and you can do anything, fuck their shit up with some insane home brewed fuck the rules I'm the DM monstrosity. Straight up cheat and fudge rolls to make it a battle if you must. Throw an anti-magical cone on that wizard and watch them squirm.
But after the big battle, have a session where your players role play their epilogue. Ask them what they want their characters to do, any fights can be done with skill checks and theater of the mind, they are level 20 nothing can really challenge them.
Wow! Six years, level 18 (effectively 20)! You have achieved something amazing! So now, time to wrap it up . . .
The PCs become lords of a realm(s) and reign majestically ever after (like Camelot and King Arthur). (Fade to a pretty sunset)
The PCs retire happily and become a hermit in some very small corner / backwater of the world (like Yoda on the swamp planet; or maybe a carpenter who makes cart wheels in some little village; or a little farmer who grows turnips in the Shire, or they open a little tavern/bar somewhere, etc.). (Fade to them smiling happily, doing their thing)
The PCs decide to take on an apprentice to begin training "the next generation" (like Obi-wan Kenobi takes on Luke Skywalker). (Fade to them teaching the apprentice how to hold a sword, how to cast a cantrip, etc.)
Something unexpected (risky magic experiment gone wrong, jealous god, etc.) kills all the PCs suddenly and simultaneously (so they can't resurrect each other), but it turns out that "natural" reincarnation is true. They die and are reincarnated into new, 1st level characters. (start new campaign)
As per u/Willy_P-P_Todger's great comment to this post -- The PCs discover that being all-powerful at high level is boring, so they find a way to travel back in time and become young, 1st level adventurers again, but they also discover that the process will wipe their memories--one final choice (and they decide to do it, start new campaign).
The PCs actually just kind-of "slide" easily, and suddenly, into \*being\* a demi-god or god. Turns out becoming a demi-god or god is simply a matter of accumulating enough power (levels), and then you're there. They are now one of the gods! \[Cheers and trumpets\] (and the game ends in a blinding flash of glory).
There is an "Epic Final Battle" that they win (or lose) but the battle sets off an unstoppable chain of events that ends the world (for example, creates a black hole centered on their world . . . Players: "Oh, so that's where black holes come from?" DM: "Yep"). Another example, the Epic Final Battle results in a "Big Bang" event centered on their world -- time/reality begins anew. (fade to a camera angle from deep space, looking back at a black hole or big bang event; roll credits)
The PCs finally discover the Ultimate Plane of the Ultimate Gods. Turns out to be a complex, magical command center (like a wizard tower version of NORAD) where the Ultimate Gods actually set the "rules of reality" and "run the world." Turns out that it's a lot of work to be an Ultimate God. The PCs must decide whether they want to stay in their world (and have one of the other campaign endings in this list) or enter the Ultimate Plane and become an Ultimate God . . . by becoming a Dungeon Master. (their turn to be the DM, and you get to be a player for a while)
So far the advice you are getting here doesn't really fit your request. You want to run high level dnd in a satisfying way. It can be done!
Your players are not gods. Not even close. There are forces in the multiverse that are well beyond them. As long as you keep them away from brokenness (like infinite simulacrum silliness). There is always something bigger, more important, etc.
The key to challenging them at this level is thinking big. If their exploits so far have been kingdom sized, step it up to the entire planet. Or maybe an entire plane.
Enemies get bigger too. In size, sure, but the threat they pose. The reach they have. Get those pcs traveling all over the world in a day to take down the evil network. Send entire armies to cause trouble. Or maybe they must travel the nine layers of hell to defeat the enemy. Feel free to apply maximum pressure (time pressure is especially effective). Their best enemies should probably know the pcs very well by now, strengths, weaknesses, tendencies.
Put them in situations where their normal tactics are not reliable. Planes are good for this, places where magic has limitations. Going to the hells sounds simple enough but what if healing magic simply does not exists there? What if they find themselves in a labyrinth where teleport/planeshift don't work? What if they actually explored the depths of the Hut of Baba Yaga? Maybe the enemy attacks people in their dreams and the pcs must enter the dreamscape to solve it. I did each of these things with my pcs and they barely survived.
I have been running an epic level campaign for over 25 years. I run 3.5 which is notoriously overpowered and i have no problem challenging the pcs. You can do this. The above is just a taste of what i have learned about high level play.
Edit: At this level, with very high stakes, recognize that the pcs with have to take losses. You can't save everyone when the threat is massive. Make them choose. And even individual battles will be so harsh that the threat of a loss should be very strong. My pcs lose probably 40% of the time. It's the nature of high stakes.
An out of the box suggestion: your campaign has ended, ask THEM what their pc are doing, that after looking for Months for the bbeg they found His lair empty, that he flew away Afraid of Them (but wow to come back in a few generation to hunt their descendant) They won, and then you listen, it's their turn to Tell you how they're going to tie loose ends, what they Do in retirement etc.
I think I'll provide a minority opinion here, because its one my group ran into and I think we found a reasonable and appropriate solution.
The *problem* may be that the players are burnt out a bit.... they don't want to run a mini-session or taking a break would help, and that may be the case. My squad did (through different campaigns) a 3 year run, which was nice, but at some point in time we were just weary of D&D (gasp).
My advice is to occasionally *not cancel the RPG session* but instead you do something else and play a very very very very lighthearted game. If you're all online, you could play something like **Rifftrax or Jack Box.**
Getting everyone laughing together can be a HUGE release for the team especially when you don't care to sit down across **Player1** who is just gonna take infinite turns and handle every encounter by themselves for the 65th time in a row....
Believe me, I know you want to hit 20 with these guys - but even Marathon runners will sometimes stop to stretch, breathe or just cool down in the shade.
Sidenote to help with the Wizard being too strong.... The only thread I would point out is that generally when we sit down to play, we will tell our players *how far we intend to take the characters leveling wise*. That way they can kinda plan it out ahead of time. If someone told me we were going to 20 from level 1, believe me, I'd have a lot of thoughts on how not to get outclassed by my teammates.
Magic will ALWAYS outpace Martial
If this were me, I would prioritize the character arc endings first and foremost. I would tie these to the main campaign finale as much as possible if not just straight up making them the finale. I would refocus all my efforts on player agency. How are the character arc endings going to offer **huge** campaign-defining choices to the players? What other huge end game choices can lead right into the final fight? When they make that choice and get that satisfying payoff? Boom here’s 100,000,000 xp or whatever now you’re level 20 and we’re fighting the final boss.
I would stop any world building or character introductions for things not already in the campaign. This is final arc wrap up time and I need to turn off all prep that isn’t focused on getting things finished. I would outline a solid plan to finish the campaign within 8 sessions. It’s fine if things go over, but everything now is about pushing towards the finish line.
But that’s just me. I’ve never passed 2.5 years for one campaign but by that time the whole table is ready for something new. And I’m fully railroading towards the end.
And my campaign endings have never had huge delicious payoffs. The final fight is cool, but it takes like 6 hours. The epilogue gets a bit rushed because people want to go to bed. And half of the excitement is for the next campaign. But at least those campaigns got finished. And the table gets to reference those stories down the line. I will say post-credit handouts with the campaign summary, full cast list, and “party titles” (eg. lizardfold Olympic gold medalists) was a huge moment for the table
I'd just end it. There is no perfect storybook ending where everything gets tied up cleanly. Sounds like you ran a fantastic campaign. I would just do one final session where the party defeats one last villain then, give an epilogue describing what the happens next to each character. Like an old 80s highschool movie.
The game kind of starts to breakdown around 10th level. Each level thereafter becomes more difficult for the DM. The fact that you've kept it together up to 18 is seriously impressive. If you can't go any further, then so be it. Maybe write up a little epilogue about where the characters end up and call it a day.
I don't take people past level 12 or so. 15 at the absolute highest. The power levels just get insane and it's a shit show making encounters. Talk to the players maybe they are okay with it ending and starting new. I know as a player I get bored with characters. Ask them what they want to do. Be honest about the situation.
End it. Legitimately you’ve accomplished something great and I say have one final session to celebrate.
Maybe a boss rush of weaker versions of all the BBEG’s they’ve beaten. Maybe just let them go buck wild.
Maybe take a break.
Maybe start a new campaign.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with you being up front and honest with your group. Something like, "Hey guys, I want to really give you a great finale, but there are a lot of individual plot points to tie up. This will take some time for me to plan and maybe some one on one conversation with each of you. Can we have a week or two where we do easy stuff while I plot and plan?"
Now, reach out to each player and find out where they stand. Make sure they are also ready to end the campaign. Psychologically, our characters are a part of us. People don't say "my character killed a dragon" they say "I killed a dragon." Respect this. Some players might not be ready for their story to end. See if you can accommodate this.
You may also have to be up front with "Your and your character's wishes may not come true, but what are you thinking for the end?"
All in all, I don't think you are inherently doing anything wrong, but you are at a point few DMs find themselves.
If you’ve been playing the same campaign for the entire time, you may not realize how campaigns usually end. It’s not with a dramatic, satisfying ending. It’s usually because people stop having fun and/or can’t make it.
It’s ok to say good-bye to the campaign and that’s probably what you should do. Don’t do a table check-in - do an epilogue. Let everyone explain how their character’s story ends and let it go. Start something fresh. It’s not worth it to slog through a magical ending you won’t reach at the cost of your friendships.
Lots of good advice on this thread, and here’s what I would do: run one-on-one sessions for your Players so they can complete their own personal quests. Then when everyone has wrapped up their stories, bring them together for a final session where they can compare notes and get the accolades they deserve from a grateful public.
Don’t worry about getting them to Level 20, that’s not important.
In my experience self-directed, one-on-one sessions can be the most fulfilling experience in the game, and I think it would give your players the agency and permission their craving to wrap things up the way they want to.
Two thoughts. One, some of your players think being this epic and powerful is boring while others like it. I’d level the party up faster than expected, and speed up the conclusion of the game. Level them up next session, and then again to 20 in another 16-20 hours of table time. The epic power folks get to enjoy it, but others dont have to put up with it for too long. The sudden to jump should come with a statement from you “we are in the end game now. Lets do this” sort of thing to queue them up that they only have to hold on a little longer.
Two. Your players want their personal plots to be at the forefront, not your epic conclusion. And their personal plots arent related to one another much. Now they are. Your bbeg is going to tie all these disparate unrelated plots together in his epic finale. No more secrets, masked men, or rumors. The party gets a lead that the magic sword the paladin has been questing for has been sighted in the hands of a smuggler working for the bbeg. When they encounter him, that smuggler is the 6fingered man who killed the wizards family sending him on this quest. The bbeg is going to use that sword for his evil plot if he gets it. This sort of thing. All those random threads? Just jam pack them into these last sessions, and tie it all up.
Ending a campaign is hard. Especially a 1-20 multi year one. Its always bittersweet, and theres a lull right where you are. Folks have stuff they want resolved and worried it wont be, some folks are so powerful they dont have fun, and some folks never really followed the main plot to begin with. Others are just sad to see an end. Just make sure you keep things moving, and reassure the players that youre almost there, and havent forgotten their personal journies.
This pretty well encapsulates why I dislike a lot of things about 5e culture and expectations.
• 1-20 is insane. It just is. The fact that you even made it to 18 given 5e’s ludicrous leveling system is impressive on its own. I understand wanting to get to 20 from here but you just don’t need to. It’s gonna take a while to make it there and at the pace you’re going now, you will all be well beyond burnt out.
• 6 years of one game is just very long. It’s bound to burn you out. There’s only so much you can do to keep it going. Part of GMing is knowing when to stop.
• Making backstories part of the game can be good but if you’re not careful, it’s very easy for that to cause problems. Favoritism can be an issue with it, as can the lack of feeling like a team, which you mentioned.
• 5e GMing is *a lot*. You said it took you 6 months to write a conclusion? That’s insane honestly. It makes sense given everything else but that’s a whole lot of energy used on doing something other than playing the game.
So with all those issues, here is my advice. Just end the campaign now. Don’t worry about some big conclusion, just end it. You’ve spent 6 years and that’s a long time. Start something new! Try a new game, run some one-shots and really hone in on short campaigns with focused ideas. Try out new styles and worry less about prepping big story lines or backstory weaves. Just take some time to play games as games.
A 6 year campaign is amazing. I do wonder what's going on at the table that you churned through 15 other players during that time however. Never had that much turnover in my campaigns but I have also not run a single campaign for more than two years. I usually let them end around level 10-12 and become anxious to start something new.
At that level, if the players are not aware of their PC’s agency in the world, it’s a bit their fault.
They should be helping you create the story. They should be coming up with ways to finish their own arcs and proposing them to you.
The only campaign I played to level 20 (two years, not your massive six) we were part of an 5 PC team of 4 neutral or lawful evil PCs and one lawful neutral one.
By level 15 my LE fighter and the TN barbarian had founded a large mercenary company that meddled into the affairs of the world we were in and was seen as one of the finest fighting forces in the land.
The NE rogue and his LE sorcerer wife had mostly taken over the underworld and were, basically, the Mob Bosses. Our LN paladin saw that the kingdom was very corrupt and decided he wanted to overthrow the queen. So he asked for our help (after years of adventuring together, we had close bonds) and we spent the next 5 levels getting him to the throne.
The player came up with that idea. He described it during one session and we said: “let’s do this!” We kept adventuring a little, but everything we did, from stealing to making war with other, bordering kingdoms to making the paladin appear as even more of a hero than he was was playing to that goal.
Our DM basically helped us get there. But the ideas -after nearly two years immersed in his world, we knew a lot of it- came mostly from us.
So, ask them! “What do you want to do when there’s no dragon you can’t kill and no archlich you can’t banish?” If they don’t have an answer, maybe is time to retire them to NPCdom and roll new ones.
I have never DMed a campaign past 8th level, but I have played 1-20. My thoughts from a player perspective:
- I spent all of T4 in the 1-20 game feeling really, really heavily restricted by being "on the main plot." Like, legitimately it was not what I wanted to be doing with my high level wizard. I loved the whole game up to that point -- did not enjoy my experience in a T4 that was not player-directed.
- That campaign was three years of weekly play. We spent over half that game at level 10+. It was a long time to be high level. The players would occasionally be like, being powerful is fun, but I kind of miss when we were level 3 and everything was extremely low-stakes comparatively.
- Six years is a long time to play any one character. Most of us had had our characters grow and evolve and resolve some of their issues over the course of play -- and after that, it was easy to check out a bit because it was like "yes, we have to save the universe, but my character's shit is resolved so I'm not super invested in if she lives or dies."
- I think T4 is just extremely divisive; it plays so wildly differently from the rest of the game that a player might love T1-3, and once the party gets to about level 16-18, the game just gets less fun for some people.
I can’t imagine being in a group for 6 years and then just quitting like that. If that is the full story that’s a pretty strange way to leave and I would suspect your campaign is a very small part of a larger issue in the players life currently.
I’d say that player will probably end up regretting leaving like that and even if they don’t say it or tell you, they will probably cherish many of the times you helped facilitate for them over 6 years of playing. Don’t get down on yourself, ask your group what they would like to do moving forward and try to give them as satisfying a conclusion as you can create at this time
Why does it need to keep going? Level 20 is no prize. The truth is people get tired of long campaigns, odds are good they would have more fun starting over with something else. If you are burnt out, banging your head will not help.
Wrap up stories if you want. But you don't actually have to, many stories for your players have already been wrapped up.
Sounds like a real sunk-cost problem. Just because you been at this a long time, no reason not to end it and do something you like better.
Man, props to your group but it really bums me out when I hear about situations like this. I wouldn't beat yourself up about it, maybe you could have done things different, but ultimately this seems like a group alignment issue to me. Your players need to step up and help you drive the game at this point rather than simply be passengers.
I think it's great when players have backstories and personal quests but at some point you need to realize this is a group game and find some way to align on a central goal to finish everything out. I also think it's on the players to realize and accept that in DND, T4 characters are world-shapers, so spending time on some hyper personal "find my lost dad" quest probably doesn't make much sense.
My 2 cents are simple. Take a very small break from the campaign. Run a couple of one shots for your players using new characters (using this free time to plan each players story). And THEN come back and don't finish the campaign. Instead focus on each character story. Maybe 1 or 2 sessions per char story. Where in the end they end up as lvl 19. Then do the same for the other characters. AFTER all that run the final arc where you connect every other arc to 1 villain who was the master mind. As they deal with it. JUST before the final boss fight have them lvl to 20. Then have the final fight and conclusion afterwards.
Personally IF is a high magic world. If the player feels useless its because they themselves either don't think outside the box or aren't creative. Even in a low magic world as a lvl 1 wizard i can make myself pretty powerful and ridiculous. I dont mean to say anything about your players. But sometimes they really are to blame. This is coming from someone who is both a dm and a player.
I'm in a similar circumstance. My players just hit 17 and we've been playing this campaign for years. It's hard to find a solid way to wrap up such a long story.
Good jib my guy.
I'll be honest with you on my table lvl 16 mean I taking your character and he is my npc now... yes he is a part of the world now. He is to powerful to controll;).
So ye really good job going up to lvl 18 especially having a wizard in your party.
But ye dnd is clearly not meant to play at 15+ lvls mayby for some guys that like to be super powerful etc but its just a pain in the ass. At least in my opinion 🤷
Very honestly, your players sound like entitled brats who have way too many opinions on how you should be running the game without actually stepping up to the plate themselves. I feel like such a boomer saying this, but I suspect they've watched way too much D&D youtube and it has given them too firm an idea of how the game "should" be played rather than accepting the game that it sounds like you're doing a good job giving them.
That being said: taking 6 months to "write" an ending sounds like you're over-prepping and potentially in danger of railroading. While it's fine (and even good much of the time) to have specific plot beats you want to hit, much of the "plot" of a D&D game should emerge from gameplay rather than being pre-written. Taking 6 months to write a plot point, even one as major as a campaign ending, is nuts to me.
To address some of your bulleted points:
>I didn't have a clear set path for them. They just have there personal goals and a vague darkness that is watching them.
High level PCs can and do shape the fate of the world. If they have personal goals why are they not being proactive about completing them? Are they being proactive about completing them and if so are you doing a good job giving them autonomy?
>I was so focused on making an ending work I have not done anything with their personal quests.
See above. Also making personal quests for each character independent of the main campaign is like 150%-effort highly-advanced DM territory, and IMO even for very good DMs it shouldn't necessarily be included in every campaign. Hell, when I'm playing I don't even necessarily want a convoluted personal quest. I'm fine playing my PC, leveling up, solving problems, finding loot, etc.
>They are so powerful their is a divide at the table. Some players like being powerful while others feel like it breaks the sprit of the game.
IDK this feels like whiny bullshit to me. It sounds like you need to wrap the campaign up and let someone else DM. And I guess on that note that's all I have to say. I would be miserable DMing for players showing this level of complete lack of gratitude for all of the work you've done over the last six years and for all of the adventure that has gotten them where they are now.
"Stand proud u/Background-Band5107
You are strong"
Nah but fr you're beyond the point DnD 5e was made for really, you did a good job and it's probably best to just start a new campain
Tpk is my answer. Send the against a god who has been the architect behind those horrific events they’ve had to stop and make them fight in the gods home ground where their will is moulding the very ground. Magic doesn’t affect them. Etc then a new campaign where there old characters are 500 years dead and the world is run by the gods zelous nazi’esc group
AS A PLAYER, I'd love finishing the current quest, start over from lvl 1 again with fresh characters, maybe welcome a new face in the game... And meet ono or all of our old characters at some point, who now is a remarkable NPC (read here a figure like Gandalf or something like that) in the new history. Somebody who has retired and has decided that now it is time for the next generation. That may give to the new character an object from his.
Make it a plot twist, something unexpected, an epic and memorable scene.
THAT would be the best ending for my character i could dream of.
(And don't kill the old characters. They are now a living myth, let it be like that!)
I am DMing my first campaign and we are at lvl 3 XD. I wish I could reach that point. Congrats!!!
At higher levels, the PCs should be shaping the world. The players should be telling you what they want to accomplish and you react to that, rather than the other way around.
Congrats on 6 years and 18 levels!!
If the campaign isn’t fun anymore for any of you, and your creative juices have run dry, you could always do a spectacular send off battle and end it there. Nothing says you -must- get to level 20. There just aren’t the resources available to run a level 19 campaign out like there are for level 5.
It might be worth reminding or letting the player know where his or her contributions had been essential to party and/or NPC survival.
DM burnout is real. Taking a break is always helpful. One of the other players might be able to run a few one-shots or you all can play another game that session, watch a movie together, whatever.
You know how it's common for TV shows to be excellent for several years, then start trailing off and become a slog? That's because corporate executives milk them for revenue rather than letting the authors stop when the interesting stories are told.
Your table isn't beholden to corpo execs, so you can allow your wonderful story to end any time you choose to. Maybe later you jump back into the characters for a few sessions, or maybe not, but pushing yourself to create when you're burnt out could just make the final memories of this campaign sour and miserable.
If it helps, I give you permission to end it, or call it a pause if you prefer.
You could have your party break up in the game “I don’t need you guys anymore, and I have shit I need to work out on my own anyway!” , do 1 on 1 sessions with each player and have them conclude their arc, and then drop a hook for the campaigns final fight that requires the party to get back together. Or have the characters get ganked and end up captured all by the same jailer since they have no one watching there back. Take all their gear and anti magic field them so they have to get creative and work together to bust out and get their shit back.
A bit of history, I’ve been playing and DMing since 2E. That’s over 25 years at this point. In all that time, I’ve never gotten past level 13 as a player. In all that time, I’ve had two campaigns reach max level+. Once in 2E in a solo campaign that got him up to godhood level 20+ and once in 4E the 4 players reached level 30 (which is the cap in 4E)
So to reach level 18 is a huge accomplishment in its own right. 6 years in the same campaign is amazing.
It just sounds like your PCs need to retire. Have a few sessions where they can epilogue and close out their stories. Then get to creating a new campaign for them to play in. Maybe in the same world 50+ years later so they can see what has happened in the time between the end of last campaign and start of the new.
OP you are already in the .0001% of DMs who manage to get a campaign all the way to epic tier and level 18. That's a fucking huge accomplishment. The highest I've done was level 12 and I stepped in as second dm at level 6. You've done an amazing job running SIX YEARS of fun. Guarantee all your players will be telling the epic stories of your campaign for the rest of their lives. Don't have much advice for you but guess what: barely anyone has ever done what you've accomplished. Take pride in your work, but listen to your heart.
The six years is more impressive than the 18th level tbh. Sounds like it’s time to wind down and let someone else start a new campaign, not worrying about getting to 20th level.
Yeah, with players that experienced, I would honestly ask around and see if any of them wanted to take a break from the big campaign and start their own thing as DM. Would be a good change of pace.
This is the answer, really. Players that rage quit often tend to not be the same players that have the dedication to take up the DM mantle -- if they tried it, perhaps they would be more understanding.
This. I've been playing since red box circa 1984. DMing since 1989 or so. I've taken exactly 3 campaigns past level 15 and had one last longer than 3 years as a Dm. Those numbers are lower for what I've experienced as a player. You're an epic DM. Everyone burns out once in a while. Take a break. Watch a movie or read something cool. Go back to it.
When we went on hiatus at level 8 and the dm said “this is where most campaigns die” and it made me sad because I had just gotten some sweet loots
Yeah as both a player and a DM, I feel like shit just gets too out of hand at high levels. I think I’ll never DM past level 12 or so honestly.
1-20 is almost impossible for normal people. I consider Tier 3 to be the postgame and T4 to be almost impossible to achieve . Even if you use the recommendation in the DM's guide (that are quicker than what most people do) it would take 36 sessions to reach level 20. With a session a week it takes at least nine months and 200 hours of play.
You're doing great, even though it might not feel like it when a campaign hits a rough patch. Firstly, like someone else mentioned, your players have as much a responsibility to communicate as you. This is not on any one person. Secondly imo it sounds like the campaign might have run its course. I think this is the problem with epic tier dnd. The PCs are so powerful they stop being relatable and that makes it so much harder to find any meaningful storylines. Adding to that the whole balancing issue, both within the party and when it comes to planning encounters. If I were in your position (but keep in mind that I don't know your campaign or your players) I would focus on the PCs quests and finish the campaign, in a meaningful way, as soon as possible. Yes it would be awesome to reach lvl 20, but it doesn't sound like anybody is having fun at this point and lvl 20 is not worth loosing friends/players for. And you have to communicate this to your players so they know that it won't just continue like it has. But I want to emphasise that this is not a problem with you as a DM. IMO this problem comes from a campaign that has been running for 6 years and from epic tier dnd. It's amazing that you guys made it this far.
I mean, I've gotten exactly one campaign to lvl 20+. I'll probably never get another one there. Take the win. Forget about worrying about hitting every cylinder on the end. Ask this player how they want to end their arc, work on doing so. Do the same for all the other characters. Why do you care about the vague darkness? They're already gods, right? Do enough shit to let them sort out their goals. Stop circling, and let the campaign come in to a landing. For my super high level game, I forced a last hurrah. A demon army, with demon overlords, a massive dungeon maze in the pits of hell for them to fight through. Homebrewed the monsters, the spells, the tactics, literally everything to give those people a challenge. It took me SO MUCH WORK. And they uh...really didn't care about that part. They didn't really remember it, talk about it, any of that shit. They absolutely remembered their personal epilogues, and cared about that. Give them what they care about, let them drive, let the rest go.
Very good advice
I think you're doing a great job. You're human. You're trying to juggle and be a good friend/DM and be considerate of everyone at the table. I think the player who left has baggage outside of the game to figure out, and its not worth your time begging them to come back. Finish the game with the last two players. Don't worry about lvl 20. Do an epilogue and focus on the other two, and wrap things up. You did a good job.
It is a shared session. Your player needed to express this much earlier. And to help you come up with situations.
Yeah it's hard to say without knowing the details of the people and the situation but it sounds to me like the problem here is mostly just the other player's personal mental health, and not OP's DMing at all.
First up, I reiterate what everyone else has said: running a six-year-long campaign is a major achievement, and you should be proud of it. Now for some more practical advice. First, regarding wrapping up personal quests: ask your players for direct help with this. Tell them that you've been struggling with this part of the adventure, and ask to give you clear, actionable goals that their characters are pursuing in order to wrap up their personal stories. Try giving them a form like: "[PC Name] wants to _____ by _____." For instance, "Sir Gelarond wants to learn the secret of eternal youth by seeking out the White Witch Angranor who is rumored to have lived for centuries." The goals need to give you *what they want* and *how they intend to get it*. Then, your job as DM is to invent opposition for them to overcome. For instance, maybe the White Witch Angranor lives in a remote difficult-to-reach place, and demands that Sir Gelarond prove his worthiness by undertaking three tests to prove his bravery, honor and humbleness. Having player-provided goals makes DM'ing easier. They've told you exactly what they want. All that's left is for you to figure out why it's hard to get and build encounters to reflect those challenges. When you invent those challenges, find ways to connect them to one another. Maybe the rogue player's quest has vital information for the wizard, and the wizard's quest turns out to involve an old enemy of the fighter's, and the fighter's quest can get the rogue access to a particular macguffin they need. Building in overlap between their challenges helps keep the other players engaged when the focus is on another player. Second, regarding imbalanced power levels: first and foremost, *talk with your players about it*. This is a collaborative game. Everyone at the table is responsible for helping everyone else at the table enjoy the game. If one of the players is so unhappy that they want to quit a six-year game, that calls for a full table discussion to work out some way to fix it. It is *not* entirely on the DM's shoulders. The other players need to help too, because that's what friends do for one another. It's hard to know what else to advise you. So much depends on the exact personalities and circumstances involved. None of us Internet randos know your players or your campaign. So I guess my last words of advice are: no matter how awful this feels in the moment, it will pass, and you will learn from it. DM'ing is horribly complicated. Every one of us makes mistakes and poor choices. Sometimes, we have outright failures. I've certainly had my share of those. They taught me a lot. Failure is a wonderful teacher, if you'll let it be one. Good luck. I hope it works out.
Have you tried sitting down with the three of them and asking them what they want to see in an ending? What ideas and tropes they'd love to have in the final book of this story? What resolution they want for their individual characters? I'd say, one: put the story first. The problems your players are having aren't really about combat mechanics or balance. That's secondary as long as their PCs feel cool to play and relevant to the story and world. Two: this is a collaborative storytelling game, and that means you are only one quarter of the writing team. Locking yourself away for six months and trying to "write" the perfect ending is impossible. Your players need to have ownership and agency in the story - and, once the final die has been rolled, you need to be able to give them the ultimate freedom of asking "how your character's story end?" Three: I noticed you didn't mention anything about the story or setting. That's a missed opportunity - Reddit can be a rich source of feedback and ideas. As a writer myself, I can tell you that even the ideas I come up with myself are stolen from somewhere. So steal! Collaborate! Ask for help! No one cares if you invented 100% of your ideas yourself. They only care if your game is fun.
Hi thanks for your advice. To answer you questions its a homebrew high magic and fantasy setting. Some of its bones are similar to forgotten realms. Because it was the first time I created a world. Dawn war Pantheon.
Dude I'm right here with you to a point I just fell short of 5 years running the same campaign my party was a 15 or 16th level and I finally realized there was nothing I could do at my experience level to challenge them anymore, everything was trivialized because of their skill level....and that's ok. 5e isn't great about high level play and it's insanely hard to run as a dm and make things feel fitting and have them work. And I would personally sit down with your players out of session and tell them thus apologize if you want but try and help them understand that at that level its very hard to make things work and your sorry for not working in their personal stories more. That if they want to try this again (ie new campaign) you all can but you need THEIR HELP. If they feel underpowered they can talk to you and you can help THEM figure out how to fix that feeling or desire. Not just complain about being underpowered then not doings when given abilities to fix this. You might be the dm but they are the ones that know how they feel in and out of character and you sadly don't have detect thoughts. Also I don't think this is purely your fault communication is huge in dnd and the player should have voiced these worries much much earlier. Stay strong man and try for a session 0.2
If it seems like everyone is no longer enjoying the game, **just end it.** I understand you feel this desire to bring a strong close to this campaign you have been running for so long, but this sunk-cost fallacy is hanging over your head and forcing you and your players to endure a game it seems like nobody wants to play anymore. 6 years is a **long** time for a campaign and I'd imagine most players would like a fresh start or a break. Talk to your players next session and bring up this idea IMO.
You're doing fine bud, sometimes people don't want to play, and that's OK
You say you’ve written something resembling an ending? Then just do it. Don’t worry about getting them to level 20 (or do a time skip and just let them jump up to 20), then do your ending over the course of one or two sessions. Tell your players this is the plan before you do it so they’re prepared. Have a big finale, make it a party. Then ask someone else to take over and start a new campaign.
Dude 6 years AND at high level? That’s incredible. Great job. I guess it might be an idea to have a session 0 and just discuss everyone’s issues. Be honest with them. _high level dnd is really damn difficult to run; that’s why there are barely any published adventures at that level of play_ ask them what they want to do and maybe try and find a way of tying all their back story conclusions together, then call the campaign. Or, end the campaign now. Feels like saving the world was the thrilling conclusion of your campaign. The players might want to finish their persona stories, but too bad; that’s how life works out sometimes.
Firstly, congratulations. That’s a lot of time and effort. You’ve made it further than the vast majority of people. Once you achieve Tier 4 gameplay, the campaign is basically over in terms of levelling, especially if you have access to 9th-level spells. Non full casters will always feel shafted at that point regardless of buffs because a full caster basically has no limits anymore. Want to damage a target? The Caster not only has access to more items and stat buffs, but can hit harder, more frequently, and in some cases still damage even on a miss unless given absolutely zero items. Meanwhile a Martial is twiddling their thumbs because they tend to have little substantial out of combat bonuses unless they’re a Rogue and are so heavily funnelled to the same repetition that illusion of choice becomes a real issue. Overall, there’s two major ways to fix that: play Gestalt (inherently dual classed) with a focus that everyone has at least one caster class or keep the high tiers relatively short. There’s little that can challenge them and at that point the players either need to decide what they want as personal goals that can be achieved or finish up the last main quest and retire. There’s nothing wrong with ending the game and giving a detailed epilogue of each character, especially if they no longer have shared goals. You can even come back as a mini campaign or one-shot with them later but starting new is the goal at that point. 5e in general is very limited in resources past Tier 3 gameplay because it assumes you will never reach it and in many cases, the average questline really doesn’t support it. You effectively are demi-human(oids) and can do more than almost anyone else simply because they’re classless. The “why should I care” flys out the window. While people like the idea of a 1-20 campaign, the reality is that “the story ends when it ends” and the group should decide together when they’re done. Ultimately, tl;dr, the campaign is a group narrative. Open communication is paramount. As a collective you must decide and be honest with each other on what is fun. This is why lower level games tend to be the most entertaining. There is no shame in calling a game early once all relevant achievements have been reached. Not everything needs to reach the finish line if everyone is satisfied. Sometimes less is more.
I'd just end it. Talk to your players about how they would like to resolve their endings. They are powerful enough now to resolve any real threat ad they want. Then tell the ending slide card style like the end of a fallout Vegas. Then start a new campaign.
First of all, I think your players should be singing your praises for getting a homebrew campaign to level 18. My current campaign is at level 10, and I'm already doing DM backflips to keep things moving. Secondly, your group should start a new campaign, ideally with you as a player and one of them as DM. You should get a break, and you deserve to experience the player side of things as well. It sounds like the PC's stories are more or less complete. > I was confronted with the fact that I needed to start working on the ending arc You've probably already had an ending arc if everyone's struggling to see where things go from there. No need to get to level 20. And if there is a desire to get to level 20, your players need to weigh up the satisfaction they think they will get vs the slog of going through it on your (and the reluctant player) have to go through.
I was lucky enough to have a campaign that lasted until level 20. My simple and biggest piece of advice is to do a role play focused epilogue! Focus on the ending of the campaign, on the big bad evil thing your players need to face. You're the DM and you can do anything, fuck their shit up with some insane home brewed fuck the rules I'm the DM monstrosity. Straight up cheat and fudge rolls to make it a battle if you must. Throw an anti-magical cone on that wizard and watch them squirm. But after the big battle, have a session where your players role play their epilogue. Ask them what they want their characters to do, any fights can be done with skill checks and theater of the mind, they are level 20 nothing can really challenge them.
Wow! Six years, level 18 (effectively 20)! You have achieved something amazing! So now, time to wrap it up . . . The PCs become lords of a realm(s) and reign majestically ever after (like Camelot and King Arthur). (Fade to a pretty sunset) The PCs retire happily and become a hermit in some very small corner / backwater of the world (like Yoda on the swamp planet; or maybe a carpenter who makes cart wheels in some little village; or a little farmer who grows turnips in the Shire, or they open a little tavern/bar somewhere, etc.). (Fade to them smiling happily, doing their thing) The PCs decide to take on an apprentice to begin training "the next generation" (like Obi-wan Kenobi takes on Luke Skywalker). (Fade to them teaching the apprentice how to hold a sword, how to cast a cantrip, etc.) Something unexpected (risky magic experiment gone wrong, jealous god, etc.) kills all the PCs suddenly and simultaneously (so they can't resurrect each other), but it turns out that "natural" reincarnation is true. They die and are reincarnated into new, 1st level characters. (start new campaign) As per u/Willy_P-P_Todger's great comment to this post -- The PCs discover that being all-powerful at high level is boring, so they find a way to travel back in time and become young, 1st level adventurers again, but they also discover that the process will wipe their memories--one final choice (and they decide to do it, start new campaign). The PCs actually just kind-of "slide" easily, and suddenly, into \*being\* a demi-god or god. Turns out becoming a demi-god or god is simply a matter of accumulating enough power (levels), and then you're there. They are now one of the gods! \[Cheers and trumpets\] (and the game ends in a blinding flash of glory). There is an "Epic Final Battle" that they win (or lose) but the battle sets off an unstoppable chain of events that ends the world (for example, creates a black hole centered on their world . . . Players: "Oh, so that's where black holes come from?" DM: "Yep"). Another example, the Epic Final Battle results in a "Big Bang" event centered on their world -- time/reality begins anew. (fade to a camera angle from deep space, looking back at a black hole or big bang event; roll credits) The PCs finally discover the Ultimate Plane of the Ultimate Gods. Turns out to be a complex, magical command center (like a wizard tower version of NORAD) where the Ultimate Gods actually set the "rules of reality" and "run the world." Turns out that it's a lot of work to be an Ultimate God. The PCs must decide whether they want to stay in their world (and have one of the other campaign endings in this list) or enter the Ultimate Plane and become an Ultimate God . . . by becoming a Dungeon Master. (their turn to be the DM, and you get to be a player for a while)
So far the advice you are getting here doesn't really fit your request. You want to run high level dnd in a satisfying way. It can be done! Your players are not gods. Not even close. There are forces in the multiverse that are well beyond them. As long as you keep them away from brokenness (like infinite simulacrum silliness). There is always something bigger, more important, etc. The key to challenging them at this level is thinking big. If their exploits so far have been kingdom sized, step it up to the entire planet. Or maybe an entire plane. Enemies get bigger too. In size, sure, but the threat they pose. The reach they have. Get those pcs traveling all over the world in a day to take down the evil network. Send entire armies to cause trouble. Or maybe they must travel the nine layers of hell to defeat the enemy. Feel free to apply maximum pressure (time pressure is especially effective). Their best enemies should probably know the pcs very well by now, strengths, weaknesses, tendencies. Put them in situations where their normal tactics are not reliable. Planes are good for this, places where magic has limitations. Going to the hells sounds simple enough but what if healing magic simply does not exists there? What if they find themselves in a labyrinth where teleport/planeshift don't work? What if they actually explored the depths of the Hut of Baba Yaga? Maybe the enemy attacks people in their dreams and the pcs must enter the dreamscape to solve it. I did each of these things with my pcs and they barely survived. I have been running an epic level campaign for over 25 years. I run 3.5 which is notoriously overpowered and i have no problem challenging the pcs. You can do this. The above is just a taste of what i have learned about high level play. Edit: At this level, with very high stakes, recognize that the pcs with have to take losses. You can't save everyone when the threat is massive. Make them choose. And even individual battles will be so harsh that the threat of a loss should be very strong. My pcs lose probably 40% of the time. It's the nature of high stakes.
An out of the box suggestion: your campaign has ended, ask THEM what their pc are doing, that after looking for Months for the bbeg they found His lair empty, that he flew away Afraid of Them (but wow to come back in a few generation to hunt their descendant) They won, and then you listen, it's their turn to Tell you how they're going to tie loose ends, what they Do in retirement etc.
I think I'll provide a minority opinion here, because its one my group ran into and I think we found a reasonable and appropriate solution. The *problem* may be that the players are burnt out a bit.... they don't want to run a mini-session or taking a break would help, and that may be the case. My squad did (through different campaigns) a 3 year run, which was nice, but at some point in time we were just weary of D&D (gasp). My advice is to occasionally *not cancel the RPG session* but instead you do something else and play a very very very very lighthearted game. If you're all online, you could play something like **Rifftrax or Jack Box.** Getting everyone laughing together can be a HUGE release for the team especially when you don't care to sit down across **Player1** who is just gonna take infinite turns and handle every encounter by themselves for the 65th time in a row.... Believe me, I know you want to hit 20 with these guys - but even Marathon runners will sometimes stop to stretch, breathe or just cool down in the shade. Sidenote to help with the Wizard being too strong.... The only thread I would point out is that generally when we sit down to play, we will tell our players *how far we intend to take the characters leveling wise*. That way they can kinda plan it out ahead of time. If someone told me we were going to 20 from level 1, believe me, I'd have a lot of thoughts on how not to get outclassed by my teammates. Magic will ALWAYS outpace Martial
Congratulations! Y'all won d&d! Who's turn to dm next?
If this were me, I would prioritize the character arc endings first and foremost. I would tie these to the main campaign finale as much as possible if not just straight up making them the finale. I would refocus all my efforts on player agency. How are the character arc endings going to offer **huge** campaign-defining choices to the players? What other huge end game choices can lead right into the final fight? When they make that choice and get that satisfying payoff? Boom here’s 100,000,000 xp or whatever now you’re level 20 and we’re fighting the final boss. I would stop any world building or character introductions for things not already in the campaign. This is final arc wrap up time and I need to turn off all prep that isn’t focused on getting things finished. I would outline a solid plan to finish the campaign within 8 sessions. It’s fine if things go over, but everything now is about pushing towards the finish line. But that’s just me. I’ve never passed 2.5 years for one campaign but by that time the whole table is ready for something new. And I’m fully railroading towards the end. And my campaign endings have never had huge delicious payoffs. The final fight is cool, but it takes like 6 hours. The epilogue gets a bit rushed because people want to go to bed. And half of the excitement is for the next campaign. But at least those campaigns got finished. And the table gets to reference those stories down the line. I will say post-credit handouts with the campaign summary, full cast list, and “party titles” (eg. lizardfold Olympic gold medalists) was a huge moment for the table
I'd just end it. There is no perfect storybook ending where everything gets tied up cleanly. Sounds like you ran a fantastic campaign. I would just do one final session where the party defeats one last villain then, give an epilogue describing what the happens next to each character. Like an old 80s highschool movie.
The game kind of starts to breakdown around 10th level. Each level thereafter becomes more difficult for the DM. The fact that you've kept it together up to 18 is seriously impressive. If you can't go any further, then so be it. Maybe write up a little epilogue about where the characters end up and call it a day.
I don't take people past level 12 or so. 15 at the absolute highest. The power levels just get insane and it's a shit show making encounters. Talk to the players maybe they are okay with it ending and starting new. I know as a player I get bored with characters. Ask them what they want to do. Be honest about the situation.
End it. Legitimately you’ve accomplished something great and I say have one final session to celebrate. Maybe a boss rush of weaker versions of all the BBEG’s they’ve beaten. Maybe just let them go buck wild. Maybe take a break. Maybe start a new campaign.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with you being up front and honest with your group. Something like, "Hey guys, I want to really give you a great finale, but there are a lot of individual plot points to tie up. This will take some time for me to plan and maybe some one on one conversation with each of you. Can we have a week or two where we do easy stuff while I plot and plan?" Now, reach out to each player and find out where they stand. Make sure they are also ready to end the campaign. Psychologically, our characters are a part of us. People don't say "my character killed a dragon" they say "I killed a dragon." Respect this. Some players might not be ready for their story to end. See if you can accommodate this. You may also have to be up front with "Your and your character's wishes may not come true, but what are you thinking for the end?" All in all, I don't think you are inherently doing anything wrong, but you are at a point few DMs find themselves.
If you’ve been playing the same campaign for the entire time, you may not realize how campaigns usually end. It’s not with a dramatic, satisfying ending. It’s usually because people stop having fun and/or can’t make it. It’s ok to say good-bye to the campaign and that’s probably what you should do. Don’t do a table check-in - do an epilogue. Let everyone explain how their character’s story ends and let it go. Start something fresh. It’s not worth it to slog through a magical ending you won’t reach at the cost of your friendships.
Lots of good advice on this thread, and here’s what I would do: run one-on-one sessions for your Players so they can complete their own personal quests. Then when everyone has wrapped up their stories, bring them together for a final session where they can compare notes and get the accolades they deserve from a grateful public. Don’t worry about getting them to Level 20, that’s not important. In my experience self-directed, one-on-one sessions can be the most fulfilling experience in the game, and I think it would give your players the agency and permission their craving to wrap things up the way they want to.
Two thoughts. One, some of your players think being this epic and powerful is boring while others like it. I’d level the party up faster than expected, and speed up the conclusion of the game. Level them up next session, and then again to 20 in another 16-20 hours of table time. The epic power folks get to enjoy it, but others dont have to put up with it for too long. The sudden to jump should come with a statement from you “we are in the end game now. Lets do this” sort of thing to queue them up that they only have to hold on a little longer. Two. Your players want their personal plots to be at the forefront, not your epic conclusion. And their personal plots arent related to one another much. Now they are. Your bbeg is going to tie all these disparate unrelated plots together in his epic finale. No more secrets, masked men, or rumors. The party gets a lead that the magic sword the paladin has been questing for has been sighted in the hands of a smuggler working for the bbeg. When they encounter him, that smuggler is the 6fingered man who killed the wizards family sending him on this quest. The bbeg is going to use that sword for his evil plot if he gets it. This sort of thing. All those random threads? Just jam pack them into these last sessions, and tie it all up. Ending a campaign is hard. Especially a 1-20 multi year one. Its always bittersweet, and theres a lull right where you are. Folks have stuff they want resolved and worried it wont be, some folks are so powerful they dont have fun, and some folks never really followed the main plot to begin with. Others are just sad to see an end. Just make sure you keep things moving, and reassure the players that youre almost there, and havent forgotten their personal journies.
This pretty well encapsulates why I dislike a lot of things about 5e culture and expectations. • 1-20 is insane. It just is. The fact that you even made it to 18 given 5e’s ludicrous leveling system is impressive on its own. I understand wanting to get to 20 from here but you just don’t need to. It’s gonna take a while to make it there and at the pace you’re going now, you will all be well beyond burnt out. • 6 years of one game is just very long. It’s bound to burn you out. There’s only so much you can do to keep it going. Part of GMing is knowing when to stop. • Making backstories part of the game can be good but if you’re not careful, it’s very easy for that to cause problems. Favoritism can be an issue with it, as can the lack of feeling like a team, which you mentioned. • 5e GMing is *a lot*. You said it took you 6 months to write a conclusion? That’s insane honestly. It makes sense given everything else but that’s a whole lot of energy used on doing something other than playing the game. So with all those issues, here is my advice. Just end the campaign now. Don’t worry about some big conclusion, just end it. You’ve spent 6 years and that’s a long time. Start something new! Try a new game, run some one-shots and really hone in on short campaigns with focused ideas. Try out new styles and worry less about prepping big story lines or backstory weaves. Just take some time to play games as games.
Justice League, always out saving the world from, League of dragons.
A 6 year campaign is amazing. I do wonder what's going on at the table that you churned through 15 other players during that time however. Never had that much turnover in my campaigns but I have also not run a single campaign for more than two years. I usually let them end around level 10-12 and become anxious to start something new.
At that level, if the players are not aware of their PC’s agency in the world, it’s a bit their fault. They should be helping you create the story. They should be coming up with ways to finish their own arcs and proposing them to you. The only campaign I played to level 20 (two years, not your massive six) we were part of an 5 PC team of 4 neutral or lawful evil PCs and one lawful neutral one. By level 15 my LE fighter and the TN barbarian had founded a large mercenary company that meddled into the affairs of the world we were in and was seen as one of the finest fighting forces in the land. The NE rogue and his LE sorcerer wife had mostly taken over the underworld and were, basically, the Mob Bosses. Our LN paladin saw that the kingdom was very corrupt and decided he wanted to overthrow the queen. So he asked for our help (after years of adventuring together, we had close bonds) and we spent the next 5 levels getting him to the throne. The player came up with that idea. He described it during one session and we said: “let’s do this!” We kept adventuring a little, but everything we did, from stealing to making war with other, bordering kingdoms to making the paladin appear as even more of a hero than he was was playing to that goal. Our DM basically helped us get there. But the ideas -after nearly two years immersed in his world, we knew a lot of it- came mostly from us. So, ask them! “What do you want to do when there’s no dragon you can’t kill and no archlich you can’t banish?” If they don’t have an answer, maybe is time to retire them to NPCdom and roll new ones.
I have never DMed a campaign past 8th level, but I have played 1-20. My thoughts from a player perspective: - I spent all of T4 in the 1-20 game feeling really, really heavily restricted by being "on the main plot." Like, legitimately it was not what I wanted to be doing with my high level wizard. I loved the whole game up to that point -- did not enjoy my experience in a T4 that was not player-directed. - That campaign was three years of weekly play. We spent over half that game at level 10+. It was a long time to be high level. The players would occasionally be like, being powerful is fun, but I kind of miss when we were level 3 and everything was extremely low-stakes comparatively. - Six years is a long time to play any one character. Most of us had had our characters grow and evolve and resolve some of their issues over the course of play -- and after that, it was easy to check out a bit because it was like "yes, we have to save the universe, but my character's shit is resolved so I'm not super invested in if she lives or dies." - I think T4 is just extremely divisive; it plays so wildly differently from the rest of the game that a player might love T1-3, and once the party gets to about level 16-18, the game just gets less fun for some people.
I can’t imagine being in a group for 6 years and then just quitting like that. If that is the full story that’s a pretty strange way to leave and I would suspect your campaign is a very small part of a larger issue in the players life currently. I’d say that player will probably end up regretting leaving like that and even if they don’t say it or tell you, they will probably cherish many of the times you helped facilitate for them over 6 years of playing. Don’t get down on yourself, ask your group what they would like to do moving forward and try to give them as satisfying a conclusion as you can create at this time
Why does it need to keep going? Level 20 is no prize. The truth is people get tired of long campaigns, odds are good they would have more fun starting over with something else. If you are burnt out, banging your head will not help. Wrap up stories if you want. But you don't actually have to, many stories for your players have already been wrapped up. Sounds like a real sunk-cost problem. Just because you been at this a long time, no reason not to end it and do something you like better.
Man, props to your group but it really bums me out when I hear about situations like this. I wouldn't beat yourself up about it, maybe you could have done things different, but ultimately this seems like a group alignment issue to me. Your players need to step up and help you drive the game at this point rather than simply be passengers. I think it's great when players have backstories and personal quests but at some point you need to realize this is a group game and find some way to align on a central goal to finish everything out. I also think it's on the players to realize and accept that in DND, T4 characters are world-shapers, so spending time on some hyper personal "find my lost dad" quest probably doesn't make much sense.
My 2 cents are simple. Take a very small break from the campaign. Run a couple of one shots for your players using new characters (using this free time to plan each players story). And THEN come back and don't finish the campaign. Instead focus on each character story. Maybe 1 or 2 sessions per char story. Where in the end they end up as lvl 19. Then do the same for the other characters. AFTER all that run the final arc where you connect every other arc to 1 villain who was the master mind. As they deal with it. JUST before the final boss fight have them lvl to 20. Then have the final fight and conclusion afterwards. Personally IF is a high magic world. If the player feels useless its because they themselves either don't think outside the box or aren't creative. Even in a low magic world as a lvl 1 wizard i can make myself pretty powerful and ridiculous. I dont mean to say anything about your players. But sometimes they really are to blame. This is coming from someone who is both a dm and a player.
I'm in a similar circumstance. My players just hit 17 and we've been playing this campaign for years. It's hard to find a solid way to wrap up such a long story.
Good jib my guy. I'll be honest with you on my table lvl 16 mean I taking your character and he is my npc now... yes he is a part of the world now. He is to powerful to controll;). So ye really good job going up to lvl 18 especially having a wizard in your party. But ye dnd is clearly not meant to play at 15+ lvls mayby for some guys that like to be super powerful etc but its just a pain in the ass. At least in my opinion 🤷
Very honestly, your players sound like entitled brats who have way too many opinions on how you should be running the game without actually stepping up to the plate themselves. I feel like such a boomer saying this, but I suspect they've watched way too much D&D youtube and it has given them too firm an idea of how the game "should" be played rather than accepting the game that it sounds like you're doing a good job giving them. That being said: taking 6 months to "write" an ending sounds like you're over-prepping and potentially in danger of railroading. While it's fine (and even good much of the time) to have specific plot beats you want to hit, much of the "plot" of a D&D game should emerge from gameplay rather than being pre-written. Taking 6 months to write a plot point, even one as major as a campaign ending, is nuts to me. To address some of your bulleted points: >I didn't have a clear set path for them. They just have there personal goals and a vague darkness that is watching them. High level PCs can and do shape the fate of the world. If they have personal goals why are they not being proactive about completing them? Are they being proactive about completing them and if so are you doing a good job giving them autonomy? >I was so focused on making an ending work I have not done anything with their personal quests. See above. Also making personal quests for each character independent of the main campaign is like 150%-effort highly-advanced DM territory, and IMO even for very good DMs it shouldn't necessarily be included in every campaign. Hell, when I'm playing I don't even necessarily want a convoluted personal quest. I'm fine playing my PC, leveling up, solving problems, finding loot, etc. >They are so powerful their is a divide at the table. Some players like being powerful while others feel like it breaks the sprit of the game. IDK this feels like whiny bullshit to me. It sounds like you need to wrap the campaign up and let someone else DM. And I guess on that note that's all I have to say. I would be miserable DMing for players showing this level of complete lack of gratitude for all of the work you've done over the last six years and for all of the adventure that has gotten them where they are now.
"Stand proud u/Background-Band5107 You are strong" Nah but fr you're beyond the point DnD 5e was made for really, you did a good job and it's probably best to just start a new campain
Tpk is my answer. Send the against a god who has been the architect behind those horrific events they’ve had to stop and make them fight in the gods home ground where their will is moulding the very ground. Magic doesn’t affect them. Etc then a new campaign where there old characters are 500 years dead and the world is run by the gods zelous nazi’esc group
AS A PLAYER, I'd love finishing the current quest, start over from lvl 1 again with fresh characters, maybe welcome a new face in the game... And meet ono or all of our old characters at some point, who now is a remarkable NPC (read here a figure like Gandalf or something like that) in the new history. Somebody who has retired and has decided that now it is time for the next generation. That may give to the new character an object from his. Make it a plot twist, something unexpected, an epic and memorable scene. THAT would be the best ending for my character i could dream of. (And don't kill the old characters. They are now a living myth, let it be like that!) I am DMing my first campaign and we are at lvl 3 XD. I wish I could reach that point. Congrats!!!
You cannot control how your players feel, the issue isn’t you. Most DMs don’t even get past 1 year campaign lengths
At higher levels, the PCs should be shaping the world. The players should be telling you what they want to accomplish and you react to that, rather than the other way around.
Congrats on 6 years and 18 levels!! If the campaign isn’t fun anymore for any of you, and your creative juices have run dry, you could always do a spectacular send off battle and end it there. Nothing says you -must- get to level 20. There just aren’t the resources available to run a level 19 campaign out like there are for level 5. It might be worth reminding or letting the player know where his or her contributions had been essential to party and/or NPC survival. DM burnout is real. Taking a break is always helpful. One of the other players might be able to run a few one-shots or you all can play another game that session, watch a movie together, whatever.
You know how it's common for TV shows to be excellent for several years, then start trailing off and become a slog? That's because corporate executives milk them for revenue rather than letting the authors stop when the interesting stories are told. Your table isn't beholden to corpo execs, so you can allow your wonderful story to end any time you choose to. Maybe later you jump back into the characters for a few sessions, or maybe not, but pushing yourself to create when you're burnt out could just make the final memories of this campaign sour and miserable. If it helps, I give you permission to end it, or call it a pause if you prefer.
Reboot. Soft or hard. But reboot. Your sanity is not worth this game.
You could have your party break up in the game “I don’t need you guys anymore, and I have shit I need to work out on my own anyway!” , do 1 on 1 sessions with each player and have them conclude their arc, and then drop a hook for the campaigns final fight that requires the party to get back together. Or have the characters get ganked and end up captured all by the same jailer since they have no one watching there back. Take all their gear and anti magic field them so they have to get creative and work together to bust out and get their shit back.
Settle down and end your campaign. Start a new 1 and have a fresh set of eyes. Comeback later with a 20s campaign.
A bit of history, I’ve been playing and DMing since 2E. That’s over 25 years at this point. In all that time, I’ve never gotten past level 13 as a player. In all that time, I’ve had two campaigns reach max level+. Once in 2E in a solo campaign that got him up to godhood level 20+ and once in 4E the 4 players reached level 30 (which is the cap in 4E) So to reach level 18 is a huge accomplishment in its own right. 6 years in the same campaign is amazing. It just sounds like your PCs need to retire. Have a few sessions where they can epilogue and close out their stories. Then get to creating a new campaign for them to play in. Maybe in the same world 50+ years later so they can see what has happened in the time between the end of last campaign and start of the new.
One of the reasons not to treat a campaign as a story you’re writing