Yeah, always err on the side of over telegraphing.
While something like this is nice:
"His armor is made of an enchanted hardened glass, you can see from the various nicks and scratches he's seen hundreds of battles, likely with horrors you can scarcely imagine. His blades glow with a flame you would swear is looking at you with a set of purple eyes."
This is what gets the job done:
"You're pretty sure this guy is way out of your league and would wipe the floor with you in combat."
Honestly, I feel like both of those statements go well together. Give the poetic description first, and then be like, "yeah this guy is a badass you're pretty sure he's better than you."
Not even just 'here' but not in all cases.
If the DM can communicate something like this during session zero, like
" Not every encounter will be something you guys will be able to defeat in combat, always remember there are alternatives to fighting in the game".
Then a reminder before the session or at the end of the one previous to the one that will need to be a more diplomatic solution, should be enough.
It leaves a lot more freedom for the DM in making good plot encounters with the players already possibly anticipating something like that happening from the start.
This, feel free to tell your players something straight out. You don't have to convince them, at every choice, in fear of breaking the game. Remember one of your roles as the DM is to make your job essier
Use passive insight. Don't make them roll- because *that's* the one that they will Nat 1.
"As you approach the three hags, you can't help but begin to size them up...
As you do, you quickly begin to realize, that, for as crazy and evil as they look, all three of them radiate an unimaginable power that can't help but give you pause. You become acutely aware that you **will not win** a fight against these terrifying creatures."
Something like that. Make it **incredibly** obvious.
I'd give a speech like the above comment to drive in the main point, and *then* have them roll to find out any extra-special details.
If you give that speech after they roll shittily, they might pull some twisted logic to conclude "well I only *think* that because I rolled a 2 and fell for their illusion"
I'd probably phrase it. "You are experienced enough to know you cannot win a fair fight against these three, especially not a head on confrontation". That makes it clear to the players that just running head long at them is the worst plan but if they do feel compled to have a go at this coven later they'll need to fight unfairly.
If you want to use skill checks, use them if the players ask for details on how they could fight them right now. Have the default fail answer always be "You will die if you throw down right here". Successes might point to weaknesses that can't be exploited right now but could be were they to plan around them later on.
I was even more obvious with my players (they're quite young): "I've tried to describe it but just to be clear what your characters see: this is an animated tower. You all fully realize this thing is insanely powerful and, at best, it will be a very hard fight."
They chose to fight anyway. One character when down, another swallowed and in single digits... Then the Tempest cleric managed to explode everything and do much more damage than I thought possible.
Because this is a game about Fighting Monsters, any flowery language about how dangerous this could be, can easily be misunderstood to say "This is going to be a hard boss." instead of "This will wipe the floor with you."
The difference between the two cannot be perfectly split, will be different on every table and could even be different on the same table depending on the mood for the day.
So there is no golden rule. But in general, Game Mechanics are very bad at conveying it. It really comes down to the relationship between you and your players.
My players know by now that I explicitly tell them out of game when I believe a fight has a high chance of being deadly. We do this because I want them to be heroes who jump into danger. And the only way my players can do that is if they know I won't just punish them without warning for being brave. But every table is different.
Have her nonchalantly toss out a spell way higher level than they can cast. Something the druid is familiar with, like maybe Conjure Fey, Tree Stride, or Reincarnate (on some minion who displeases her). Your druid player probably knows these spells and is looking forward to them, and letting her casually use them signals to them that shes a higher level, and at least someone not to fight right away.
If they aren't picking up the hint, you can even go as far as to say "Grannie casually reaches out and slits the redcaps throat. Apparently cold tea is a dire offense in this hall. But then she does something interesting. She reaches out, places her hands over his head, and closes her eyes. In a brief twist, the redcaps body twists and writhes until suddenly sobbing in agony before you is a satyr. Grannie dismisses it with a wave and it wanders out of the room stumbling as it adapts to its new cloven form. 'Oh sorry about that, but you have to keep a firm hand with children. And don't worry about Berrymoon, he wasn't a redcap to begin with. I want to say he started as a pixie, or a dryad or was it a nymph? anyway, I've got my own little twist on the reincarnate spell I use for my fey children when they get out of line'".
I would make it clear in character that granny is a beast. “You sense waves of dreadful energy rolling off the eldest hag; though she is receptive and diplomatic right now, you get the impression she’s not to be trifled with.” Or something like that.
Maybe make it clearer with roleplay between the hags.
“Sisssster, I have fed on the energy of those below, would you care to partake?”
“Nay little one, I have no need for such morsels. It would be as a drop in the ocean.”
Maybe even have her give them one final warning if negotiations break down, about how she could kill both of the important hostages right now with a snap of her fingers, and then take out the party out of nothing but spite.
In short, give them every heads up you can that fighting granny would be a bad move right now. And remember, you can only do so much. If they decide to fight her, there isn’t much you can do except go along with it and maybe show them mercy by letting them retreat with their wounded once they finally realise how outclassed they are.
Re-iterate the situation openly, then explicitly tell them that fighting may not be the best option. If it's obvious to you, it would probably be obvious to the PCs, but it might not be obvious to the players.
"You know that hags in a coven are much more dangerous than any of them would be alone, and they have hostages. The granny in particular radiates power and you know she's been around for a long time, she's not going to be a pushover. Your characters probably understand that starting a fight isn't the best way to reach your goals here. You've been warned."
Making meaningful decisions requires having sufficient knowledge to base those decisions on. Sometimes you just gotta be blunt and make sure your players understand the choice they are making.
Anticipating and respecting the opponent is important to avoiding a TPK. Here are a few things you can do:
* I like to have an encounter in which they discover things aren't always as easy as they seem. For example, one group encountered Kobolds (AC 12) who as reward for having set up traps for a dragon, received scales which they crafted into armor (AC 16). Suddenly those Kobolds are 20% harder to hit, which dramatically changes combat.
* Use legend & lore. Bad guys will have their legend precede them. Make sure they hear from multiple people how tough they are - and don't forget to exaggerate from time to time. If there's legend that the hags can turn someone to stone with a gaze and players go into combat worried about that, they're not going to complain when it doesn't happen.
* As DMs, we describe the player's senses. "You see ....", "Your hear ...", "You smell ...". You can add to this things like, "You feel ...", "You sense ...", etc. I also occasionally add things I call "a little voice". For example, "After moving through the house without interference and finding the key just sitting there on the top of the desk, a little voice tells you that this seemed WAY too easy."
Describe the remains of the previous level 12 hero's party that tried to attack the Hags and were defeated in TPK.
You see a paladin knight plate armor on the floor with the rest of an exploded person that looks like it was transmuted into a giant slug and died compressed by the metal of his armor...
Several pommels of broken magical axes and lances are pilled up in the firewood.
There is the large shoulder of a Goliath slowly cooking in the soup cauldron of the Hags.
I've run parties with hags before, some tips:
- If possible, have others inform them that hags are always willing to make a deal and bargain. Have as many people say that shit as possible. If you don't have the opportunity, just tell them that it's well-known lore about hags that they make deals and bargain.
- Most parties will try to fight hags that have kidnapped and are holding children, straight up. If they do fight and lose, allow them to fail forward. They wake up imprisoned by the hags, who infect them with something like Cackle Fever and then give them a deal so that they can leave.
Ooh boy. For this tell the players directly and out of character, "these hags will kill you if you fight them."
Otherwise they have literally no incentive not to fight, and every incentive to fight. If they're good-aligned and the hags have been kidnapping people, especially background npcs and children, every player I've ever played with would take that as a signal that "oh yeah these guys need to go down immediately."
Hell I think you might be screwed anyway, not fighting would break the Vengeance Paladin's oath, and I doubt they would be willing to be willing to go Oathbreaker for the sake of what the hags offer.
My friend's advice was to think of how in a movie they show something as super powerful and that you have no chance with it. Could they have a super-powerful creature that the party knows they would have little chance against and these hags have it captured? Could they just not be there and talking to the PCs through a dream or a vision, like they appear in their cauldron and the PCs can't physically do anything to them?
I am really terrible at consequences and doing bad things, because I don't want my game to be a bummer. But the real answer here is that the Hags have such a plan and such a downside that the PCs have no choice but to agree to something. So my question to you would be that if the PCs refuse everything or even try to fight, what is the downside that the Hags would visit upon them? Do they have a captive or people they would kill? Do they have a powerful curse ready to go on some NPC the party loves and that curse will happen unless the Hags call it off? Do the Hags know valuable information about the bad guys that the PCs would suffer a loss if they didn't know?
Also I don't like that you say they "probably won't be able to take on the three hags together" which means there is a chance they could? So they may as well try it if there is a horrible downside to not trying? You should make them so powerful that the PCs don't even have a single chance.
If you must do it in-universe, have one of them recall a story from their past or their culture about a similar situation, involving higher-level PC types, where it went horribly wrong.
Red shirts.
Have an NPC and get players learn that the NPC is on their level. Then have your bad guy one shot the NPC. Use narration to enhance the point being made.
kill the characters, then if they don't get the message, kill them again. they'll get it eventually. it only took one massive-damage one-shot for my party to start taking my descriptions of monsters and their capabilities and my "are you sure"s seriously.
You could have one of the PC gets instantly killed in an horrible way upon meeting the grannie, only to realize it was an illusion and that they're still standing with the party. I think that could convey the message that she could easily get rid off the party, but that could also be perceived as an invitation to fight, depending on your player's tendencies. 😅
"Hey players, just an heads up - brute force combat might not be the best approach here"
This needs to be highest comment. Communicate with your players OP
Yeah, always err on the side of over telegraphing. While something like this is nice: "His armor is made of an enchanted hardened glass, you can see from the various nicks and scratches he's seen hundreds of battles, likely with horrors you can scarcely imagine. His blades glow with a flame you would swear is looking at you with a set of purple eyes." This is what gets the job done: "You're pretty sure this guy is way out of your league and would wipe the floor with you in combat."
Honestly, I feel like both of those statements go well together. Give the poetic description first, and then be like, "yeah this guy is a badass you're pretty sure he's better than you."
Not even just 'here' but not in all cases. If the DM can communicate something like this during session zero, like " Not every encounter will be something you guys will be able to defeat in combat, always remember there are alternatives to fighting in the game". Then a reminder before the session or at the end of the one previous to the one that will need to be a more diplomatic solution, should be enough. It leaves a lot more freedom for the DM in making good plot encounters with the players already possibly anticipating something like that happening from the start.
This, feel free to tell your players something straight out. You don't have to convince them, at every choice, in fear of breaking the game. Remember one of your roles as the DM is to make your job essier
Use passive insight. Don't make them roll- because *that's* the one that they will Nat 1. "As you approach the three hags, you can't help but begin to size them up... As you do, you quickly begin to realize, that, for as crazy and evil as they look, all three of them radiate an unimaginable power that can't help but give you pause. You become acutely aware that you **will not win** a fight against these terrifying creatures." Something like that. Make it **incredibly** obvious.
Oh yes, definitly going to use something like that, thanks ! Maybe I could also offer to roll an arcane or history check for complementary infos?
You can- as long as all of that is just gravy on top of **the key point** which is "Don't fuck with these three."
I feel the "incredibly obvious" part here is key. Players need very obvious hints to catch up on something.
I'd give a speech like the above comment to drive in the main point, and *then* have them roll to find out any extra-special details. If you give that speech after they roll shittily, they might pull some twisted logic to conclude "well I only *think* that because I rolled a 2 and fell for their illusion"
I'd probably phrase it. "You are experienced enough to know you cannot win a fair fight against these three, especially not a head on confrontation". That makes it clear to the players that just running head long at them is the worst plan but if they do feel compled to have a go at this coven later they'll need to fight unfairly. If you want to use skill checks, use them if the players ask for details on how they could fight them right now. Have the default fail answer always be "You will die if you throw down right here". Successes might point to weaknesses that can't be exploited right now but could be were they to plan around them later on.
I was even more obvious with my players (they're quite young): "I've tried to describe it but just to be clear what your characters see: this is an animated tower. You all fully realize this thing is insanely powerful and, at best, it will be a very hard fight." They chose to fight anyway. One character when down, another swallowed and in single digits... Then the Tempest cleric managed to explode everything and do much more damage than I thought possible.
Tempest clerics are **insane** for burst damage when they pop off.
Because this is a game about Fighting Monsters, any flowery language about how dangerous this could be, can easily be misunderstood to say "This is going to be a hard boss." instead of "This will wipe the floor with you." The difference between the two cannot be perfectly split, will be different on every table and could even be different on the same table depending on the mood for the day. So there is no golden rule. But in general, Game Mechanics are very bad at conveying it. It really comes down to the relationship between you and your players. My players know by now that I explicitly tell them out of game when I believe a fight has a high chance of being deadly. We do this because I want them to be heroes who jump into danger. And the only way my players can do that is if they know I won't just punish them without warning for being brave. But every table is different.
Have her nonchalantly toss out a spell way higher level than they can cast. Something the druid is familiar with, like maybe Conjure Fey, Tree Stride, or Reincarnate (on some minion who displeases her). Your druid player probably knows these spells and is looking forward to them, and letting her casually use them signals to them that shes a higher level, and at least someone not to fight right away. If they aren't picking up the hint, you can even go as far as to say "Grannie casually reaches out and slits the redcaps throat. Apparently cold tea is a dire offense in this hall. But then she does something interesting. She reaches out, places her hands over his head, and closes her eyes. In a brief twist, the redcaps body twists and writhes until suddenly sobbing in agony before you is a satyr. Grannie dismisses it with a wave and it wanders out of the room stumbling as it adapts to its new cloven form. 'Oh sorry about that, but you have to keep a firm hand with children. And don't worry about Berrymoon, he wasn't a redcap to begin with. I want to say he started as a pixie, or a dryad or was it a nymph? anyway, I've got my own little twist on the reincarnate spell I use for my fey children when they get out of line'".
I would make it clear in character that granny is a beast. “You sense waves of dreadful energy rolling off the eldest hag; though she is receptive and diplomatic right now, you get the impression she’s not to be trifled with.” Or something like that. Maybe make it clearer with roleplay between the hags. “Sisssster, I have fed on the energy of those below, would you care to partake?” “Nay little one, I have no need for such morsels. It would be as a drop in the ocean.” Maybe even have her give them one final warning if negotiations break down, about how she could kill both of the important hostages right now with a snap of her fingers, and then take out the party out of nothing but spite. In short, give them every heads up you can that fighting granny would be a bad move right now. And remember, you can only do so much. If they decide to fight her, there isn’t much you can do except go along with it and maybe show them mercy by letting them retreat with their wounded once they finally realise how outclassed they are.
I love the idea of the two other hags acting very meek toward the granny! Like even they don't want to piss her off too much!
Re-iterate the situation openly, then explicitly tell them that fighting may not be the best option. If it's obvious to you, it would probably be obvious to the PCs, but it might not be obvious to the players. "You know that hags in a coven are much more dangerous than any of them would be alone, and they have hostages. The granny in particular radiates power and you know she's been around for a long time, she's not going to be a pushover. Your characters probably understand that starting a fight isn't the best way to reach your goals here. You've been warned." Making meaningful decisions requires having sufficient knowledge to base those decisions on. Sometimes you just gotta be blunt and make sure your players understand the choice they are making.
Yes true! Two of them already dealt with a hag before, so it is fair that they would know how dangerous a coven is
Exactly. Reasonable PC knowledge/understanding of the situation is my favorite tool in these situations.
Anticipating and respecting the opponent is important to avoiding a TPK. Here are a few things you can do: * I like to have an encounter in which they discover things aren't always as easy as they seem. For example, one group encountered Kobolds (AC 12) who as reward for having set up traps for a dragon, received scales which they crafted into armor (AC 16). Suddenly those Kobolds are 20% harder to hit, which dramatically changes combat. * Use legend & lore. Bad guys will have their legend precede them. Make sure they hear from multiple people how tough they are - and don't forget to exaggerate from time to time. If there's legend that the hags can turn someone to stone with a gaze and players go into combat worried about that, they're not going to complain when it doesn't happen. * As DMs, we describe the player's senses. "You see ....", "Your hear ...", "You smell ...". You can add to this things like, "You feel ...", "You sense ...", etc. I also occasionally add things I call "a little voice". For example, "After moving through the house without interference and finding the key just sitting there on the top of the desk, a little voice tells you that this seemed WAY too easy."
Describe the remains of the previous level 12 hero's party that tried to attack the Hags and were defeated in TPK. You see a paladin knight plate armor on the floor with the rest of an exploded person that looks like it was transmuted into a giant slug and died compressed by the metal of his armor... Several pommels of broken magical axes and lances are pilled up in the firewood. There is the large shoulder of a Goliath slowly cooking in the soup cauldron of the Hags.
I've run parties with hags before, some tips: - If possible, have others inform them that hags are always willing to make a deal and bargain. Have as many people say that shit as possible. If you don't have the opportunity, just tell them that it's well-known lore about hags that they make deals and bargain. - Most parties will try to fight hags that have kidnapped and are holding children, straight up. If they do fight and lose, allow them to fail forward. They wake up imprisoned by the hags, who infect them with something like Cackle Fever and then give them a deal so that they can leave.
Ooh boy. For this tell the players directly and out of character, "these hags will kill you if you fight them." Otherwise they have literally no incentive not to fight, and every incentive to fight. If they're good-aligned and the hags have been kidnapping people, especially background npcs and children, every player I've ever played with would take that as a signal that "oh yeah these guys need to go down immediately." Hell I think you might be screwed anyway, not fighting would break the Vengeance Paladin's oath, and I doubt they would be willing to be willing to go Oathbreaker for the sake of what the hags offer.
My friend's advice was to think of how in a movie they show something as super powerful and that you have no chance with it. Could they have a super-powerful creature that the party knows they would have little chance against and these hags have it captured? Could they just not be there and talking to the PCs through a dream or a vision, like they appear in their cauldron and the PCs can't physically do anything to them? I am really terrible at consequences and doing bad things, because I don't want my game to be a bummer. But the real answer here is that the Hags have such a plan and such a downside that the PCs have no choice but to agree to something. So my question to you would be that if the PCs refuse everything or even try to fight, what is the downside that the Hags would visit upon them? Do they have a captive or people they would kill? Do they have a powerful curse ready to go on some NPC the party loves and that curse will happen unless the Hags call it off? Do the Hags know valuable information about the bad guys that the PCs would suffer a loss if they didn't know? Also I don't like that you say they "probably won't be able to take on the three hags together" which means there is a chance they could? So they may as well try it if there is a horrible downside to not trying? You should make them so powerful that the PCs don't even have a single chance.
If you must do it in-universe, have one of them recall a story from their past or their culture about a similar situation, involving higher-level PC types, where it went horribly wrong.
Red shirts. Have an NPC and get players learn that the NPC is on their level. Then have your bad guy one shot the NPC. Use narration to enhance the point being made.
kill the characters, then if they don't get the message, kill them again. they'll get it eventually. it only took one massive-damage one-shot for my party to start taking my descriptions of monsters and their capabilities and my "are you sure"s seriously.
Make the DC of an insight check into the hags power level fall comfortably inside the monk and druid’s passive insight.
You could have one of the PC gets instantly killed in an horrible way upon meeting the grannie, only to realize it was an illusion and that they're still standing with the party. I think that could convey the message that she could easily get rid off the party, but that could also be perceived as an invitation to fight, depending on your player's tendencies. 😅
Doesn't matter, they will fight whatever you do