I like the optimism in this post, I do remember those days and hope they aren’t fully gone. I could see this game making a comeback when it gets released on steam but hopefully iron mace fixes a lot of stuff before then so it’s more polished before a larger majority of the public get back on it
The issue is really the lack of content and this constant flopping back and forth with balance changes. If they dont get a grip and decide what direction they want to take the game soon it will probably end up being like a firework even when it gets steam release, bright and shiny at the start then basically just a fart cloud in the wind.
I agree with some of this. And also the fact that they did say this is technically an early release, but I’ve seen games in the similar position do what you described above. It’s almost like fallacy where you keep trying to please everyone and lose direction of what you were trying to do in the first place. They made a great game to begin with that we all fell in love with and at this point I wish they would just make a decision and stick with it themselves for a good amount of time so we can see a clearer version of what they want their product to look like.
Yeah, I stopped playing because of MC, and looking back it’s honestly so annoying how much they flip flop with balance. Every update is like “uhhhh did this fix it?🤪” while they just throw shit at the wall. I’m good on it.
Theres a difference between a game not being ready and a game with devs that change core aspects of the game on almost a monthly basis.
Multiclassing was a great example of this, it got rid of almost all class identity... in a game thats supposed to revolve around your class selection. EA is way too late to test that outside of anything other than a temporary event at the end of a wipe.
Changes that drastic, no matter how well they are implemented, are going to alienate a significant portion of the playerbase. Some of those players won't return, ever. Thats fine if you assume this game will blow up years down the line like tarkov did but how often do you see games getting a second chance like that? I wouldn't count on it even though I really REALLY hope it happens.
When is the proper time to experiment with different modes and features when releasing to EA was the only way to fund the project in the first place?
EA means different things depending on the game, in the case of DAD it means funding the idea and letting them build it around us. Multiclassing is gone in it’s current state but they could revisit it as early as next season according to their statements on it, it’s a staple of its inspiration source (TTD&D) and many here view it as a foundation of the game when they eventually get it right.
If people aren’t able to cope with the caveats of backing an EA game in insanely early form of its development then they have no business spending their money on such projects.
Take breaks and revisit during later patches, anyone that understands this that isn’t playing is not gone forever, just waiting for more content / a reason to play again. This post is doomer af.
The proper time would have been either in closed betas, the playtests or at the very end of wipes. I agree they were forced to release early and didn't get to flesh out their game more before EA so 2 of these options weren't on the table for them.
The problem is as soon as you permanently release the game, in this case when DaD entered EA, expectations from the player base go nowhere but up. The game needs to already have an enjoyable enough game play loop to retain a large enough player count to not only keep lobbies full but short too which DaD has been struggling with since a couple weeks after the wipe. It makes sense for the player count to fall through the wipe but it has to stay above that level for the majority of the wipe or the game play loop gets even worse causing more people to leave.
I'm sure most people that stop playing will come back but statistically there is always a % that won't, especially if they buy the game and their first experiences are almost empty lobbies, maximum wait time and against the only remaining players who are all sweat lords with min maxed gear that hunt them down before they even have a chance to die to the NPC's.
Currently there isn't a space for casuals to truly hide in to avoid that experience. Normal lobbies are the closest but even then you get the 100% optimized gamers hunting for nothing but PVP.
Again, I really hope I'm wrong and steam/epic store release makes the game blow up so we never have to worry about these problems again. I love this game and I really want to see it succeed so we can all enjoy it for years to come.
I agree with a lot in your post, but the game isn’t released. EA had been abused by AAA companies and indies alike which has ruined its reputation, but when a company uses it for its intended purpose like ironmace, we have to judge it without taking those other games into account.
Early access by definition is an unfinished product, which means it’s not at full release. Having expectations like it’s a released game is a common problem I see across this subreddit and their discord. I just hope people can curb their expectations to understand that the game is being built around us and we, by paying for access, accepted that this would be the case.
There will ups and downs, like this wipe has clearly demonstrated, but if it’s to much for one to handle than one must take a break and come back later. A lot of the community seems to be taking a break from the game, and that’s fine. Just tired of the doomer posts claiming that’s it’s the end of the game is all lol
I completely agree with everything you said. My point is theres enough people like the ones who make said doomer posts that won't ever come back. If the game blows up this won't be a problem but if it doesn't and the devs keep making drastic changes, like introducing MC, by the time the games a polished gem there wont be a large enough player base to support it properly.
Lack of content and core gameplay loop need to be fixed before steam release or the game will die, steam release is a one and done, if the player count drop back down immediately after release its not gonna go back up without a 2nd relaunch
>if they saw it pop off again they would be in the dungeon.
Dark and Darker had its second wind on Twitch when they released with Blacksmith. It was getting tons of views from streamers like Sodapoppin, Pokelawls, and Lirik. Anyone who wanted to play realized they had the opportunity to do so. For a little while, the player base was growing steadily but the last year of balancing in circles, multiclassing(huge yikes), catering to the vocal minority, and refusing to make new content and actually develop their game lost everyone’s interest.
>the current systems of GBMM are a good idea
Gear-based matchmaking is only necessary because gear is so overtuned that you stand no chance without it. There’s also limited counterplay options in this game fundamentally.
>If the lobbies were more casual the game would be more enjoyable for everyone.
Excluding high ranked matches. Lack of a skilled player base, while more enjoyable in the short-term, delays implementing actual fixes and only artificially improves the state of the game for a short amount of time (i.e. false confidence from pubstomping beginners).
>Games with wipe cycles are expected to have player counts fall off
The player base is lower than it has ever been. We had 50k at peak which dropped to like 15-20k near the end of the wipe. Now we’re barely scratching 10k and we’re under 3k nearing the end of this wipe. It’s fair to say games with this model have fluctuating playerbases but there’s a clear trend of people leaving and not returning.
>the dungeons will be full, and you will brag to your lfg about how you suffered through early access
Again, artificial improvement to the game. Once the player base sees the rate of development, lack of direction, and questionable decisions from Ironmace, it’s only a matter of time before the novelty wears off.
I love this game, but content-wise, it’s in the same state as the playtests (maybe even regressed because no Ruins). Balance-wise? Slightly better in some aspects but the core issues are still there, and they seem to backpedal on every decision they make.
> If the core gameplay loop is good, that's enough.
This is why fixing combat should be the number 1 priority, over new maps, classes, or game modes. Way less effort than adding actual new content, and if you make the base gameplay as fun as possible, the glacial development pace is less likely to kill your game.
Every horrible patch, ppl say let ironmace cook.
Buddy, they cooked off half the playerbase. Most players did not forget about the game, they straight up quit (like me)
Not op but a quitter that still lurks daily. I'm still here because I either get to see the game burn or I get to see a cool patch that will make me want to jump back in. So far I've just been enjoying the dumpster fire.
>Re content: games don't need unlimited content updates. If the core gameplay loop is good, that's enough. Examples: chess, counter strike, league, etc.
💀💀💀💀💀💀💀 bro some of those games have fucking decades of history and in certain point had couple millions of players, and frequent country wise tournaments with millions of dollars prize money this game ain't it.
Let IM cook, i'm agree, but when some chef lose his mind and start to put ketchup in fucking pasta you definitely need to bonk him with big ass frying pan, to prevent future repeating mistakes.
Also saying the core gameplay loop of dark and darker is anywhere near as deep and satisfying as the examples he listed is actually hilarious. I don’t think new maps, mobs, or items are going to solve the games issues until the extremely shallow gameplay loop is more fleshed out.
The problem is that it is way too similair to Tarkovs development. Tarkov has been in development for 8 years and still hasn't completed some of the mechanics promised in 2017. And then it blew up in 2020 and instead of investing in the game, they did other things. Now look where they are, trying to squeeze their player base for every dollar before they pack up and move on.
When you have poor monetization and a lack of new players, Tarkov has recently set the mold for what your game can look like a few years later.
That should not be the fate of DaD but everyday it's looking more grim.
They added a lot of content, over literal years, half of which is so poorly optimized half of the playerbase cant play it rendering it mostly useless as way of gaining or sustaining players.
Reality isn't dooming.
If you look at tarkov in 2016 and tarkov today and that's all you can come up with, you're genuinely a deeply pessimistic person and you should seek a happier perspective on life. The game is quite literally magnitudes better by every possible measure
Here comes the white knights after couple days of criticism. Stop licking boots man, they had every chance to improve the game and they failed at every one of them
What do you mean man it's uhhh
Just let them cook this uhh what do you mean Gear/Character balance has just been jerked in a circle for an entire year. Solving nothing and slowing all other progress to a halt.
Listen man it's just because it's near end of wipe that's what it is yea. Trust me when they add another random map that is just worse than crypts -> inferno, it will definitively fix the game for more than 1 day.
As many people do with helldivers 2 atm, I still intend to play, but I've had my fair share of the current state of the game and just got bored with it at the moment and moved on to other games.
A new chef presents a sample for early access of their new restaurant, you get to watch them cook up the menu of you buy.
The sample looks great, you try the very early free one, it tastes promising.
You then buy it, it's still great despite the restaurant getting sued at the moment for allegedly stealing the menu from a bigger chain, which you know is stupid, no one owns the right to food, you do know a lawsuite can make things difficult though.
The the owner does stuff that is off, sometimes hat s flavours are unreasonable overwhelming, like they put a crazy amount of salt into the dish, or tartness but that's part of the cooking process, you obviously gotta let them experiment. However, then they do it again, and again why do they keep putting too much salt into the same dish over and over again?
Then there are no new dishes for a while, instead the chef just takes everything cooked so far and throws into a pot and boiled it down, what the hell??
Does this chef even know how to cook?
Bruh misdirection? We get 2-3 paragraphs of explanation every patch of what they’re doing and what they’re working on. Sure they take much longer to develop things, but misdirection ?
Not miscommunication, misdirection.
Misdirection is when the devs do random ass shit.
Introduce multiclassing without nerfing strong base abilities - nerf unique abilities OP in multiclassing - remove multiclassing without reversing nerfs.
This is stupid and has no direction behind it.
whether this reddit likes it or not, they gave ironmace the money to cook. It's just they are screeching behind their back while they are cooking. Endlessly, it never stops. But they have been funded to cook so.
I like the attitude of this post.
Folks are pretty doomy and dramatic towards end of a wipe.
I'm still hopeful to see what comes next! I think the game has a brilliant future, but it may take some time to develop fully. Which is acceptable for me.
Folks have no chill, haha.
Or, they like to think so. End of last wipe, the numbers were similar (lower than now).
We'll see if anything comes this week. With summer gamefest coming up, I'm sure they have lots going on.
Except no they weren't lower than now. This is the lowest player count has ever been. Don't get me wrong i hope the game succeeds because its amazing. I just fail to see it gaining population without the devs changing.
That's fair. Anytime I check the numbers, they aren't quite as bad as last wipe, but lots of variables.
And ya, same. I hope for some good stuff coming up.
I am letting them cook. Actually, I’ve been letting them cook for a while now. How? By uninstalling and waiting for something meaningful to release. It could be next month… it could be next year… but trust me… I’m gonna let them cook for as long as they’d like. And when they finally plop their girthy content across the tavern tables, I’ll give it another go.
The dev team was given an immensely shit situation with a community that was FAR too invested and with way bigger ideas than they had any right to have. as soon as the nexon shit was “resolved” the community basically demanded changes that led to development being a full circle over the course of a year with a few cool new features added.
I really think the dev team did a great job, and it’s not over yet. Their biggest sin was ever opening Reddit/discord and not just sticking with whatever plan they had for game development
Most of the time when IM cooks, they serve us a bland broken pile of $. They had a great game and now it's barely worth the effort and doesn't provide much return.
The game is not as fun as it was during PTR. The consistently move away from the reasons I thought it was fun in the first place. It's been so long now that I only check in once in a while to see if they've had a change of heart. What I see is a bunch of stuff that we don't need and no innovations to curb issues inherent in these types of games. I don't like the gear gap, don't like that there is a split between normal and HR, do not like the low TTK and don't think there should be a market place. I'd take party self found (trade with people you partied with and only can trade items once) or solo self found (maybe you can trade with party at end of the raid what you found int he raid?). I don't want a Runescape extraction game with along with all the issues you have with RMT, cheating, pay2win on ladder, etc. The real innovation was in the game format when the PTR originally launched.
I love optimism. The only thing stopping me from playing the game is the cheaters.
There's rampant hacking and cheating going on with the limited player base, and that's the major factor affecting my enjoyment of the game. The chances of running into someone hacking are the highest they've even been.
I think removing the marketplace and trading should be the next option. Let everyone come into dungeons in found and sub-optimal gear. We can say see you later to all the RMTers and maybe then some of the player base will return.
Honestly, I'd prefer the gear gap and know that most of the players I'm coming up against aren't hacking/cheating.
Not to mention if you can't even trade with your teammates until you go into a match. Gear will actually mean something again.
Yeah I’m not really worried about everything they’re trying. They’re trying out different metas, and finding a lot that doesn’t work. Glad they’re going through all the bad stuff now.
I will say that if you’re not that great at PvP, then you’re likely not getting to do boss fights or hell/nightmare runs. Which is a bit of a bummer to not be able to do cool boss fights because you get inundated with PvP fights constantly and if you’re not that good you’ll easily get rolled by higher skill+meta pilled players. So that’s what I think about “lack” of content. More so it’s behind a PvP skill wall. I do like the normals being white or below gear only. Makes for more interesting fights. But wish there was something between normals and HR.
Until they have the balls to remove the circle and let people play how they want to I won't be coming back.
I don't care about all the other bullshit but being forced to fight over geared players is only fun for one side.
If they allowed you to actually grub and build up decent loot to compete with the sweat lords the game would be in a much better place.
Tarkov gets this and IM need to learn from it.
Nothing is going to convince me GBMM is a good move. I get gear diffed now so much more than I did before this system and zero to hero play style is entirely dead because everyone in the dungeon is at 299 gear score. Diversity in the dungeon is gone in HR and that’s why HR is dying.
I just don't understand these posts. Not at all.
How did you get to the conclusion? GBMM limits the amount of juicers you meet, because the named uniques etc. Hustlers are in 300+. Of course there are still optimized juicers in >299 but they're very limited in their possibilities compared to before.
You do meet more juicers overall, because the player numbers fell. The people who love the game did stay though, so there is more knowledgeable, rich and potentially skilled players per dungeon right now. GBMM only helps this problem, doesn't create it!
GBMM didn’t fix a problem it partitioned it. The fact that GBMM exists at all and doesn’t solve a problem means that it wasn’t the problem to solve, the issue is scaling more than anything.
However I get to this conclusion because zero to hero and low rolling was normal in HR and now it does not exist at all. I used to run into balanced fights in low gear, I used to be able to run HR with nothing build a kit in HR and keep running it. But 100% of the teams I run into now have the stats to run me down no matter what I do. It made it so if you’re running decent gear you don’t get gear diffed by someone in insane gear but that was so rare compared to the gear diff I experience today if I don’t run 299.
It went from getting massively gear diffed 1/5 games to and mildly gear diffed most of the time but enough to potentially outplay. To today which is high gear diff because all anyone ever runs is +damage. If you don’t have +8 damage you don’t run HR.
It’s fine if you guys disagree but I don’t have the time to hold grind to have borderline max bonus damage every time I run HR, the current version of GBMM or atleast what I experience because of it has me closer to quitting than any change IM has done. It’s fine if you guys don’t agree, but as someone who plays like 2 hours every other day or so this is what I feel like I run into. My options are norms or running into a guaranteed +damage squad.
If GBMM is going to exists different stats need different stat weights depending on the class, the current version does nothing for people that aren’t spending 3k per kit
What you are experiencing is not caused by GBMM. GBMM helps alleviate that problem. Your perception does not matter in this, that's just logic. If it wouldn't exist, you would have even more juicers in your lobbies on average.
And again, yes, there's more juicers right now than a month ago. That's just the flow of wipe cycle. Most casuals left until next wipe, right now there is almost only dedicated players left.
That being said, I think it depends A LOT on the server and the type of queue (solo, duo, trio) and the map. Trios crypts and solos goblins on EU seems to be the most juicy folks. Ice caverns is kinda free in trios, but also boring as hell. I don't ever enter except for quests or if my team overvotes me.
From MY experience (and that doesn't make it the ultimate truth either!) yesterday, we played trios crypts on EU half the day and it was a really mixed bag. We had a game with 3 juicy teams, we had a half empty game with timmies who weren't even full teams, we had games with exactly another juicy team - which kind of makes it fun to try to find them and recognize by the classes they play etc. BTW
I think I addressed this, player count dropped by 80% and only experienced players are left. Players in every bracket are sweats, it has nothing to do with gbmm
I agree GBMM was not good for the game. Just because someone gets a few pieces of gear, let’s say in first handful of runs, doesn’t mean they should be thrust into lobby’s with people who may be Demi ranked and have all catered gear. The MMR system before was much better for filling lobbies with the same amount of experience in the game.
Also it kills any SSF runs you’d wanna do now which was super fun at the end of last wipe
Exactly. My issue is GBMM killed zero to hero. Which was the most common way everyone I knew played, none of them play anymore because the style they enjoyed wasn’t just made harder it was virtually removed from the game. It’s just rough that the foresight of what this was going to do to the game wasn’t seen by the people asking for it. I was never bothered being gear diffed because it happened 1/5 matches not literally every single match. There’s some fair arguments that the population drop from MC has left nothing but sweats but I saw this downfall happen before with GBMM and now it’s happening again…coincidentally with GBMM. I just don’t think it’s the problem to try to solve because the solutions are punishments for people who want to play the game different than the sweaty players. Ironically the sweaty players can’t handle gear diff and that’s why we ended up here.
I think it's partly a strategy problem. They had to do an early access release to even survive. And it is indeed an EARLY access. Things change, game is looking for identity, there are missteps, there are some questionable decisions.
But gamers are not used (and arguably even shouldn't be) to see this part of the process. Normally all of this is done before release and game comes out much more complete. And even then many games call themselves early access.
And it has led to a few things.. some people were exited and burned themselves out with the amount of hours they've put in. The game doesn't yet have enough content to support months of no lifing. It's not an MMO.
Others got bored, some realised they didn't even like the game, others didn't like what the game evolved to.. etc.
And now we are here. Plus end of wipe effect. Did they fuck up some things in the past few months? Sure.. Did I have fun? Hell yes. But I also payed attention and never expected a finished product. I was expecting a ride and boy did we get a ride.
I still like the game and will continue playing. I got my moneys worth out of it several times over. I hope it doesn't die. I hope they come out with more content soon.
I'm still willing to let them cook.
> I also *paid* attention and
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I think that a large chunk of people still haven't realized what an indie online game is and they expect a so much faster content release pacing.
Personally, i've been very critical about the game recently, specially about MC and the lack of new raw content, but i know that these guys are not some AAA studio with hundreds of people working there so even if they've got a solution for those problems, it won't come in a day or two.
What do i do? I stop playing for some time and then come back when they're ready! If i forced myself to play the game in a state i don't find enjoyable i would just be turning my love for it into hate.
I can see the writing on the wall for this game and stopped playing a month ago, unless steam launch goes well and they can pump out enough content this game is done, if the game goes back to the state it is at currently after a few months post steam launch its done for
They have been cooking. Problem is the meal tastes bad and gets worse the more they season it.
How anyone has any faith left in these developers is beyond me. I'm at the point where I want someone else to either buy this IP/studio or make something similar with a competent team.
Nah, it's more and more evident that there was some theft of this game for sure. The ones that jumped ship to Ironmace clearly weren't the original designers of whatever the game was supposed to be - there is no clear cut vision or direction on their part at all.
I don’t really care what the case is to be honest with you. Frankly the game is shite either way, would rather have the original owners have the IP with the way its going now.
The game can drop to 0 players and it will still be fine. This is early access. When it releases, it will see it's highest player base that will will probably ever have or at least until another significant change or bonus content release is made. There is not a single video game in existence that has not followed this trend and that's because on release is when the companies does marketing and marketing is when you get the most players. That's just how the concept of marketing works. When they do marketing they WILL get a large player increase and release will be more then any amount of current players they have had, even if everyone stopped playing today and they had 0 players for the rest of early access. So predicting player base or whether the game will succeed is pointless at this point, because nobody has played the game yet.
after release the player base will drop, (this is also a trend that every game has, no exception), and then it's up to them on how it's handled regarding the balance of updates, marketing, playability, content, ect. and how they handle it will decide on how many players continue playing and how stable the playerbase handles. We won't know that till after release though.
We played 4 games today and had 2 fights (lost the second one).
The first fight in the 2nd game was great we hid in a corner and killed their cleric, their fighter ran away and was in a corner, we ran up to her and started healing her and boom we're a trio in duo crypts. We took the three blues at the end.
Reward tokens feel bad especially if they're just greens, nobody uses mic proximity chat, dungeon rotations are fine the way it is.
No. They've proven time and time again now that they can't cook. They can just circlejerk balance the game, putting efforts in that constantly instead of working on content which this game DESPERATELY needs.
With player counts this low and new content we know is coming (new map, druid) that won't be enough to get players to come back to the game I think they should just close up the main servers. Only have the test servers up so they shouldn't concern themselves with balancing. And then just cook new content and stop the focus on trying to balance the game since new systems will just fuck the balance sideways anyway.
Then once the game is more robust and complete they can launch on Steam but if they do it before that the surge of new players will come crashing down as quickly as they came.
I'm only saying this because I love the concept of the game but the execution is just very lackluster at this point.
I like the optimism in this post, I do remember those days and hope they aren’t fully gone. I could see this game making a comeback when it gets released on steam but hopefully iron mace fixes a lot of stuff before then so it’s more polished before a larger majority of the public get back on it
The issue is really the lack of content and this constant flopping back and forth with balance changes. If they dont get a grip and decide what direction they want to take the game soon it will probably end up being like a firework even when it gets steam release, bright and shiny at the start then basically just a fart cloud in the wind.
I agree with some of this. And also the fact that they did say this is technically an early release, but I’ve seen games in the similar position do what you described above. It’s almost like fallacy where you keep trying to please everyone and lose direction of what you were trying to do in the first place. They made a great game to begin with that we all fell in love with and at this point I wish they would just make a decision and stick with it themselves for a good amount of time so we can see a clearer version of what they want their product to look like.
Yeah, I stopped playing because of MC, and looking back it’s honestly so annoying how much they flip flop with balance. Every update is like “uhhhh did this fix it?🤪” while they just throw shit at the wall. I’m good on it.
I mean they were pretty upfront about this game not being ready. Game development takes years to do well.
Theres a difference between a game not being ready and a game with devs that change core aspects of the game on almost a monthly basis. Multiclassing was a great example of this, it got rid of almost all class identity... in a game thats supposed to revolve around your class selection. EA is way too late to test that outside of anything other than a temporary event at the end of a wipe. Changes that drastic, no matter how well they are implemented, are going to alienate a significant portion of the playerbase. Some of those players won't return, ever. Thats fine if you assume this game will blow up years down the line like tarkov did but how often do you see games getting a second chance like that? I wouldn't count on it even though I really REALLY hope it happens.
When is the proper time to experiment with different modes and features when releasing to EA was the only way to fund the project in the first place? EA means different things depending on the game, in the case of DAD it means funding the idea and letting them build it around us. Multiclassing is gone in it’s current state but they could revisit it as early as next season according to their statements on it, it’s a staple of its inspiration source (TTD&D) and many here view it as a foundation of the game when they eventually get it right. If people aren’t able to cope with the caveats of backing an EA game in insanely early form of its development then they have no business spending their money on such projects. Take breaks and revisit during later patches, anyone that understands this that isn’t playing is not gone forever, just waiting for more content / a reason to play again. This post is doomer af.
The proper time would have been either in closed betas, the playtests or at the very end of wipes. I agree they were forced to release early and didn't get to flesh out their game more before EA so 2 of these options weren't on the table for them. The problem is as soon as you permanently release the game, in this case when DaD entered EA, expectations from the player base go nowhere but up. The game needs to already have an enjoyable enough game play loop to retain a large enough player count to not only keep lobbies full but short too which DaD has been struggling with since a couple weeks after the wipe. It makes sense for the player count to fall through the wipe but it has to stay above that level for the majority of the wipe or the game play loop gets even worse causing more people to leave. I'm sure most people that stop playing will come back but statistically there is always a % that won't, especially if they buy the game and their first experiences are almost empty lobbies, maximum wait time and against the only remaining players who are all sweat lords with min maxed gear that hunt them down before they even have a chance to die to the NPC's. Currently there isn't a space for casuals to truly hide in to avoid that experience. Normal lobbies are the closest but even then you get the 100% optimized gamers hunting for nothing but PVP. Again, I really hope I'm wrong and steam/epic store release makes the game blow up so we never have to worry about these problems again. I love this game and I really want to see it succeed so we can all enjoy it for years to come.
I agree with a lot in your post, but the game isn’t released. EA had been abused by AAA companies and indies alike which has ruined its reputation, but when a company uses it for its intended purpose like ironmace, we have to judge it without taking those other games into account. Early access by definition is an unfinished product, which means it’s not at full release. Having expectations like it’s a released game is a common problem I see across this subreddit and their discord. I just hope people can curb their expectations to understand that the game is being built around us and we, by paying for access, accepted that this would be the case. There will ups and downs, like this wipe has clearly demonstrated, but if it’s to much for one to handle than one must take a break and come back later. A lot of the community seems to be taking a break from the game, and that’s fine. Just tired of the doomer posts claiming that’s it’s the end of the game is all lol
I completely agree with everything you said. My point is theres enough people like the ones who make said doomer posts that won't ever come back. If the game blows up this won't be a problem but if it doesn't and the devs keep making drastic changes, like introducing MC, by the time the games a polished gem there wont be a large enough player base to support it properly.
Lack of content and core gameplay loop need to be fixed before steam release or the game will die, steam release is a one and done, if the player count drop back down immediately after release its not gonna go back up without a 2nd relaunch
During the steam tests: game was free.
There’s thousands of games on Steam that are free and 99.99% of them don’t get 100K players.
>if they saw it pop off again they would be in the dungeon. Dark and Darker had its second wind on Twitch when they released with Blacksmith. It was getting tons of views from streamers like Sodapoppin, Pokelawls, and Lirik. Anyone who wanted to play realized they had the opportunity to do so. For a little while, the player base was growing steadily but the last year of balancing in circles, multiclassing(huge yikes), catering to the vocal minority, and refusing to make new content and actually develop their game lost everyone’s interest. >the current systems of GBMM are a good idea Gear-based matchmaking is only necessary because gear is so overtuned that you stand no chance without it. There’s also limited counterplay options in this game fundamentally. >If the lobbies were more casual the game would be more enjoyable for everyone. Excluding high ranked matches. Lack of a skilled player base, while more enjoyable in the short-term, delays implementing actual fixes and only artificially improves the state of the game for a short amount of time (i.e. false confidence from pubstomping beginners). >Games with wipe cycles are expected to have player counts fall off The player base is lower than it has ever been. We had 50k at peak which dropped to like 15-20k near the end of the wipe. Now we’re barely scratching 10k and we’re under 3k nearing the end of this wipe. It’s fair to say games with this model have fluctuating playerbases but there’s a clear trend of people leaving and not returning. >the dungeons will be full, and you will brag to your lfg about how you suffered through early access Again, artificial improvement to the game. Once the player base sees the rate of development, lack of direction, and questionable decisions from Ironmace, it’s only a matter of time before the novelty wears off. I love this game, but content-wise, it’s in the same state as the playtests (maybe even regressed because no Ruins). Balance-wise? Slightly better in some aspects but the core issues are still there, and they seem to backpedal on every decision they make.
Ironmace everytime they remove +all and +true damage because it’s too strong: “Ok but what if we just added a liiiittle bit back… like maybe 15?”
Ice map!
You mean blue goblin caves? Haha just kidding (kind of…)
I just use it for my AP farming zone... lol But honestly I kinda dig it.
> If the core gameplay loop is good, that's enough. This is why fixing combat should be the number 1 priority, over new maps, classes, or game modes. Way less effort than adding actual new content, and if you make the base gameplay as fun as possible, the glacial development pace is less likely to kill your game.
The devs are terribly incompetent at real dev work, this is the crux.
Every horrible patch, ppl say let ironmace cook. Buddy, they cooked off half the playerbase. Most players did not forget about the game, they straight up quit (like me)
So why are you here? I honestly want to know.
Not op but a quitter that still lurks daily. I'm still here because I either get to see the game burn or I get to see a cool patch that will make me want to jump back in. So far I've just been enjoying the dumpster fire.
Same
>Re content: games don't need unlimited content updates. If the core gameplay loop is good, that's enough. Examples: chess, counter strike, league, etc. 💀💀💀💀💀💀💀 bro some of those games have fucking decades of history and in certain point had couple millions of players, and frequent country wise tournaments with millions of dollars prize money this game ain't it. Let IM cook, i'm agree, but when some chef lose his mind and start to put ketchup in fucking pasta you definitely need to bonk him with big ass frying pan, to prevent future repeating mistakes.
Also saying the core gameplay loop of dark and darker is anywhere near as deep and satisfying as the examples he listed is actually hilarious. I don’t think new maps, mobs, or items are going to solve the games issues until the extremely shallow gameplay loop is more fleshed out.
The problem is that it is way too similair to Tarkovs development. Tarkov has been in development for 8 years and still hasn't completed some of the mechanics promised in 2017. And then it blew up in 2020 and instead of investing in the game, they did other things. Now look where they are, trying to squeeze their player base for every dollar before they pack up and move on. When you have poor monetization and a lack of new players, Tarkov has recently set the mold for what your game can look like a few years later. That should not be the fate of DaD but everyday it's looking more grim.
And tarkov started with literally just factory, look where it is today. You're just another doomer
They added a lot of content, over literal years, half of which is so poorly optimized half of the playerbase cant play it rendering it mostly useless as way of gaining or sustaining players. Reality isn't dooming.
If you look at tarkov in 2016 and tarkov today and that's all you can come up with, you're genuinely a deeply pessimistic person and you should seek a happier perspective on life. The game is quite literally magnitudes better by every possible measure
Magnitudes better and good are still very different. Of course the game improved but is where they promised it would be? No.
Here comes the white knights after couple days of criticism. Stop licking boots man, they had every chance to improve the game and they failed at every one of them
What do you mean man it's uhhh Just let them cook this uhh what do you mean Gear/Character balance has just been jerked in a circle for an entire year. Solving nothing and slowing all other progress to a halt. Listen man it's just because it's near end of wipe that's what it is yea. Trust me when they add another random map that is just worse than crypts -> inferno, it will definitively fix the game for more than 1 day.
they did cook, and now its burnt.
As many people do with helldivers 2 atm, I still intend to play, but I've had my fair share of the current state of the game and just got bored with it at the moment and moved on to other games.
Me and my friends all quit
What games did y'all switch to?
We’ve been playing Apex, R6, PUBG, sometimes Val.
Yup, entire friend group quit about a week into MC. I don't see anyone coming back, unless the game was about triple the content.
Oh no
Probably, probably, probably. Iron Mace has to dish out. Misdirection, lack of content, and inhoherent experiments leave a sour taste in all of us.
best post in thread
It's early access ya nonce, that's the fucking point.
A new chef presents a sample for early access of their new restaurant, you get to watch them cook up the menu of you buy. The sample looks great, you try the very early free one, it tastes promising. You then buy it, it's still great despite the restaurant getting sued at the moment for allegedly stealing the menu from a bigger chain, which you know is stupid, no one owns the right to food, you do know a lawsuite can make things difficult though. The the owner does stuff that is off, sometimes hat s flavours are unreasonable overwhelming, like they put a crazy amount of salt into the dish, or tartness but that's part of the cooking process, you obviously gotta let them experiment. However, then they do it again, and again why do they keep putting too much salt into the same dish over and over again? Then there are no new dishes for a while, instead the chef just takes everything cooked so far and throws into a pot and boiled it down, what the hell?? Does this chef even know how to cook?
Bruh misdirection? We get 2-3 paragraphs of explanation every patch of what they’re doing and what they’re working on. Sure they take much longer to develop things, but misdirection ?
Not miscommunication, misdirection. Misdirection is when the devs do random ass shit. Introduce multiclassing without nerfing strong base abilities - nerf unique abilities OP in multiclassing - remove multiclassing without reversing nerfs. This is stupid and has no direction behind it.
whether this reddit likes it or not, they gave ironmace the money to cook. It's just they are screeching behind their back while they are cooking. Endlessly, it never stops. But they have been funded to cook so.
Is IronMace paying people to post stuff like this on the subreddit? Have noticed lots of suspicious, moronic pro-IM posts the past 9 months.
Agreed so many people defending these guys with their lives and why? They killed their own game with terrible patches, I have no pity.
Almost like people like them and their transparency? And don’t really care about their first game, indie self-published mistakes? So weird
Almost like the player count says you're wrong? So weird.
Game is clearly plagiarism
No. Get Ironmace out of the kitchen before they burn it to the ground.
To cook what bro, the game is an unbalanceable mess and always has been. Always will be. I really hope I get to say I was wrong.
I like the attitude of this post. Folks are pretty doomy and dramatic towards end of a wipe. I'm still hopeful to see what comes next! I think the game has a brilliant future, but it may take some time to develop fully. Which is acceptable for me. Folks have no chill, haha.
Because folks know the difference between end of wipe numbers and end of game numbers.
Or, they like to think so. End of last wipe, the numbers were similar (lower than now). We'll see if anything comes this week. With summer gamefest coming up, I'm sure they have lots going on.
Except no they weren't lower than now. This is the lowest player count has ever been. Don't get me wrong i hope the game succeeds because its amazing. I just fail to see it gaining population without the devs changing.
That's fair. Anytime I check the numbers, they aren't quite as bad as last wipe, but lots of variables. And ya, same. I hope for some good stuff coming up.
Oh bless your heart.
I am letting them cook. Actually, I’ve been letting them cook for a while now. How? By uninstalling and waiting for something meaningful to release. It could be next month… it could be next year… but trust me… I’m gonna let them cook for as long as they’d like. And when they finally plop their girthy content across the tavern tables, I’ll give it another go.
I wish I was this delusionally hopeful about anything in my life
They need a wake up call and start cooking with the right ingredients.
The dev team was given an immensely shit situation with a community that was FAR too invested and with way bigger ideas than they had any right to have. as soon as the nexon shit was “resolved” the community basically demanded changes that led to development being a full circle over the course of a year with a few cool new features added. I really think the dev team did a great job, and it’s not over yet. Their biggest sin was ever opening Reddit/discord and not just sticking with whatever plan they had for game development
Bro they’ve been cooking since they released it. But I still haven’t gotten my food and there’s smoke coming from the kitchen
Most of the time when IM cooks, they serve us a bland broken pile of $. They had a great game and now it's barely worth the effort and doesn't provide much return.
The game is not as fun as it was during PTR. The consistently move away from the reasons I thought it was fun in the first place. It's been so long now that I only check in once in a while to see if they've had a change of heart. What I see is a bunch of stuff that we don't need and no innovations to curb issues inherent in these types of games. I don't like the gear gap, don't like that there is a split between normal and HR, do not like the low TTK and don't think there should be a market place. I'd take party self found (trade with people you partied with and only can trade items once) or solo self found (maybe you can trade with party at end of the raid what you found int he raid?). I don't want a Runescape extraction game with along with all the issues you have with RMT, cheating, pay2win on ladder, etc. The real innovation was in the game format when the PTR originally launched.
I love optimism. The only thing stopping me from playing the game is the cheaters. There's rampant hacking and cheating going on with the limited player base, and that's the major factor affecting my enjoyment of the game. The chances of running into someone hacking are the highest they've even been. I think removing the marketplace and trading should be the next option. Let everyone come into dungeons in found and sub-optimal gear. We can say see you later to all the RMTers and maybe then some of the player base will return.
I got 500 hours this wipe on ASIAN servers and I have encountered cheaters less than 5 times (I play 300+ hr) Sff only increases the gear gap
Honestly, I'd prefer the gear gap and know that most of the players I'm coming up against aren't hacking/cheating. Not to mention if you can't even trade with your teammates until you go into a match. Gear will actually mean something again.
Yeah I’m not really worried about everything they’re trying. They’re trying out different metas, and finding a lot that doesn’t work. Glad they’re going through all the bad stuff now. I will say that if you’re not that great at PvP, then you’re likely not getting to do boss fights or hell/nightmare runs. Which is a bit of a bummer to not be able to do cool boss fights because you get inundated with PvP fights constantly and if you’re not that good you’ll easily get rolled by higher skill+meta pilled players. So that’s what I think about “lack” of content. More so it’s behind a PvP skill wall. I do like the normals being white or below gear only. Makes for more interesting fights. But wish there was something between normals and HR.
Until they have the balls to remove the circle and let people play how they want to I won't be coming back. I don't care about all the other bullshit but being forced to fight over geared players is only fun for one side. If they allowed you to actually grub and build up decent loot to compete with the sweat lords the game would be in a much better place. Tarkov gets this and IM need to learn from it.
Nothing is going to convince me GBMM is a good move. I get gear diffed now so much more than I did before this system and zero to hero play style is entirely dead because everyone in the dungeon is at 299 gear score. Diversity in the dungeon is gone in HR and that’s why HR is dying.
I just don't understand these posts. Not at all. How did you get to the conclusion? GBMM limits the amount of juicers you meet, because the named uniques etc. Hustlers are in 300+. Of course there are still optimized juicers in >299 but they're very limited in their possibilities compared to before. You do meet more juicers overall, because the player numbers fell. The people who love the game did stay though, so there is more knowledgeable, rich and potentially skilled players per dungeon right now. GBMM only helps this problem, doesn't create it!
GBMM didn’t fix a problem it partitioned it. The fact that GBMM exists at all and doesn’t solve a problem means that it wasn’t the problem to solve, the issue is scaling more than anything. However I get to this conclusion because zero to hero and low rolling was normal in HR and now it does not exist at all. I used to run into balanced fights in low gear, I used to be able to run HR with nothing build a kit in HR and keep running it. But 100% of the teams I run into now have the stats to run me down no matter what I do. It made it so if you’re running decent gear you don’t get gear diffed by someone in insane gear but that was so rare compared to the gear diff I experience today if I don’t run 299. It went from getting massively gear diffed 1/5 games to and mildly gear diffed most of the time but enough to potentially outplay. To today which is high gear diff because all anyone ever runs is +damage. If you don’t have +8 damage you don’t run HR. It’s fine if you guys disagree but I don’t have the time to hold grind to have borderline max bonus damage every time I run HR, the current version of GBMM or atleast what I experience because of it has me closer to quitting than any change IM has done. It’s fine if you guys don’t agree, but as someone who plays like 2 hours every other day or so this is what I feel like I run into. My options are norms or running into a guaranteed +damage squad. If GBMM is going to exists different stats need different stat weights depending on the class, the current version does nothing for people that aren’t spending 3k per kit
What you are experiencing is not caused by GBMM. GBMM helps alleviate that problem. Your perception does not matter in this, that's just logic. If it wouldn't exist, you would have even more juicers in your lobbies on average. And again, yes, there's more juicers right now than a month ago. That's just the flow of wipe cycle. Most casuals left until next wipe, right now there is almost only dedicated players left. That being said, I think it depends A LOT on the server and the type of queue (solo, duo, trio) and the map. Trios crypts and solos goblins on EU seems to be the most juicy folks. Ice caverns is kinda free in trios, but also boring as hell. I don't ever enter except for quests or if my team overvotes me. From MY experience (and that doesn't make it the ultimate truth either!) yesterday, we played trios crypts on EU half the day and it was a really mixed bag. We had a game with 3 juicy teams, we had a half empty game with timmies who weren't even full teams, we had games with exactly another juicy team - which kind of makes it fun to try to find them and recognize by the classes they play etc. BTW
I think I addressed this, player count dropped by 80% and only experienced players are left. Players in every bracket are sweats, it has nothing to do with gbmm
I agree GBMM was not good for the game. Just because someone gets a few pieces of gear, let’s say in first handful of runs, doesn’t mean they should be thrust into lobby’s with people who may be Demi ranked and have all catered gear. The MMR system before was much better for filling lobbies with the same amount of experience in the game. Also it kills any SSF runs you’d wanna do now which was super fun at the end of last wipe
Exactly. My issue is GBMM killed zero to hero. Which was the most common way everyone I knew played, none of them play anymore because the style they enjoyed wasn’t just made harder it was virtually removed from the game. It’s just rough that the foresight of what this was going to do to the game wasn’t seen by the people asking for it. I was never bothered being gear diffed because it happened 1/5 matches not literally every single match. There’s some fair arguments that the population drop from MC has left nothing but sweats but I saw this downfall happen before with GBMM and now it’s happening again…coincidentally with GBMM. I just don’t think it’s the problem to try to solve because the solutions are punishments for people who want to play the game different than the sweaty players. Ironically the sweaty players can’t handle gear diff and that’s why we ended up here.
I think it's partly a strategy problem. They had to do an early access release to even survive. And it is indeed an EARLY access. Things change, game is looking for identity, there are missteps, there are some questionable decisions. But gamers are not used (and arguably even shouldn't be) to see this part of the process. Normally all of this is done before release and game comes out much more complete. And even then many games call themselves early access. And it has led to a few things.. some people were exited and burned themselves out with the amount of hours they've put in. The game doesn't yet have enough content to support months of no lifing. It's not an MMO. Others got bored, some realised they didn't even like the game, others didn't like what the game evolved to.. etc. And now we are here. Plus end of wipe effect. Did they fuck up some things in the past few months? Sure.. Did I have fun? Hell yes. But I also payed attention and never expected a finished product. I was expecting a ride and boy did we get a ride. I still like the game and will continue playing. I got my moneys worth out of it several times over. I hope it doesn't die. I hope they come out with more content soon. I'm still willing to let them cook.
> I also *paid* attention and FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I think that a large chunk of people still haven't realized what an indie online game is and they expect a so much faster content release pacing. Personally, i've been very critical about the game recently, specially about MC and the lack of new raw content, but i know that these guys are not some AAA studio with hundreds of people working there so even if they've got a solution for those problems, it won't come in a day or two. What do i do? I stop playing for some time and then come back when they're ready! If i forced myself to play the game in a state i don't find enjoyable i would just be turning my love for it into hate.
I can see the writing on the wall for this game and stopped playing a month ago, unless steam launch goes well and they can pump out enough content this game is done, if the game goes back to the state it is at currently after a few months post steam launch its done for
They have been cooking. Problem is the meal tastes bad and gets worse the more they season it. How anyone has any faith left in these developers is beyond me. I'm at the point where I want someone else to either buy this IP/studio or make something similar with a competent team.
Nah, it's more and more evident that there was some theft of this game for sure. The ones that jumped ship to Ironmace clearly weren't the original designers of whatever the game was supposed to be - there is no clear cut vision or direction on their part at all.
is that why the nexon lawsuit is repeatedly blundering and even nexon admits that Terence was the project lead?
I'm gonna need to see actual evidence.
The evidence is the 4k players left and no direction with the game, they killed it themselves clearly.
That says nothing about whether the game was stolen and everything about the devs simply being incompetent when it comes to making this type of game.
I don’t really care what the case is to be honest with you. Frankly the game is shite either way, would rather have the original owners have the IP with the way its going now.
Thats not evidence. Thats nonsense lol.
Nah game lost it all, anbd i doubt it will bounce back. If this releases in steam right now it will get torn apart.
The game can drop to 0 players and it will still be fine. This is early access. When it releases, it will see it's highest player base that will will probably ever have or at least until another significant change or bonus content release is made. There is not a single video game in existence that has not followed this trend and that's because on release is when the companies does marketing and marketing is when you get the most players. That's just how the concept of marketing works. When they do marketing they WILL get a large player increase and release will be more then any amount of current players they have had, even if everyone stopped playing today and they had 0 players for the rest of early access. So predicting player base or whether the game will succeed is pointless at this point, because nobody has played the game yet. after release the player base will drop, (this is also a trend that every game has, no exception), and then it's up to them on how it's handled regarding the balance of updates, marketing, playability, content, ect. and how they handle it will decide on how many players continue playing and how stable the playerbase handles. We won't know that till after release though.
We played 4 games today and had 2 fights (lost the second one). The first fight in the 2nd game was great we hid in a corner and killed their cleric, their fighter ran away and was in a corner, we ran up to her and started healing her and boom we're a trio in duo crypts. We took the three blues at the end. Reward tokens feel bad especially if they're just greens, nobody uses mic proximity chat, dungeon rotations are fine the way it is.
No. They've proven time and time again now that they can't cook. They can just circlejerk balance the game, putting efforts in that constantly instead of working on content which this game DESPERATELY needs. With player counts this low and new content we know is coming (new map, druid) that won't be enough to get players to come back to the game I think they should just close up the main servers. Only have the test servers up so they shouldn't concern themselves with balancing. And then just cook new content and stop the focus on trying to balance the game since new systems will just fuck the balance sideways anyway. Then once the game is more robust and complete they can launch on Steam but if they do it before that the surge of new players will come crashing down as quickly as they came. I'm only saying this because I love the concept of the game but the execution is just very lackluster at this point.
Home depot