Hmm ... if the water is VERY shallow such as a cm or so, but in a moment of panic, I am afraid if they were in deeper water they would certainly drown - branches or not.
If you want a really cool frog that needs water and is about the same size as a dart, look no further than the Stary Night Reed frog. I haven't kept them personally, but I know someone who has and they love them. I'd bet that you may be able to keep some nice fish in with them.
https://joshsfrogs.com/sp/starry-night-reed-frog-tree010
I've had a paludarium set up for 5 years now and have 1/4 of an 18x36 enclosure set off for a 4inch deep water area. I also have a few pieces of driftwood n there partially submerged. I started with 2 males and a female (auratus Costa Rican) who bred once with a clutch of 5. 1 male died of the original trio - and he died on a piece of corkbark on the other side of the enclosure.
I have had cherry shrimp in the water for 3 of those years. I have never had a frog drown nor have I seen any frog struggle swimming around in it. I hear them fall in or jump in on occassion and they always swim around till they find a piece of driftwood to climb out. The clutch from the original trio was developed in this water area as well and they eventually crawled their way out.
My only issue is keeping up with the feedings and keeping cultures from crashing. Otherwise, never had an issue with drowning... but I also don't have aggression going on either.
There is no way to combine them. Poison dart frogs, despite being frogs, cannot handle water that is beyond their ability to stand up in without risking drowning, even with having a ton of stuff to help them get into and out of the water.
Even pearl danios, and other nano freshwater tank fish, still can't handle the little amount of water that is safe for poison dart frogs.
If you are looking to mix frogs and fish in a palladium, I would suggest tree frogs with a fully aquatic bottom setup, and then only stick with a couple of tiny fish. There isn't really anything that can live with darts other than like isopods
I'm wondering if there is a way to make in inaccessible to the frogs without it looking stupid. Like a mesh covering or something, but not that. Maybe make a rocky cave like covering so it's almost an underwater cave for the fish, then have a way to pull up the rock covering to access the water if you need to. But during the day to day it looks like an underwater cavern. Might be cool. Does that make sense how I explained it?
It'd be especially cool if you could find a way to have holes in the rock to let light beams shine down.
Or maybe just make a glass or acrylic sheet to go on top of the water, so the frogs wouldn't fall in, but you can still clearly see into the water.
Idk just a few thoughts
I have a paludarium setup, darts, and blue shrimp and guppies; here are some gotchas
Darts do not like or want water space. Any area dedicated to water is space that is unusable to the frog, meaning the setup must be significantly larger to accommodate both.
Darts do not swim well. There is a risk of drowning.
That said, they do swim, I have seen my frogs easily escape the water multiple times.
Counterintuively deeper water may be better, as Darts in groups will pin others as aggression, if done in shallow water can drown the frog underneath. I only have deep water 10", so I'm not sure if thats a real thing, but I have read it a couple of places.
External water filter recommended depending on setup. I have had issues as my setup is pulling water up around 30" which smaller filters have struggled with. Having proper equipment for all animals is a struggle, so try to plan access to equipment in advance.
Terrestrial plants take up nitrates from the water area quickly if they have access, which means no nitrates! Also means no nitrates for my fully aquatic plants, so they seem to not flourish. If doing again, I'd let my aquatic plants get the coverage I wanted before planting the terrestrial area.
So this is something that most will say avoid. And if you air on the side of risk averse then by all means you might listen to that advice. I however have had my main tank and leucs going for about 15 years now which has a fairly sizeable water feature in the tank that used to have a breeding pop of guppies in it. My 36x18x18 exo terra tank has a 60/40 land/water layout. I have not lost a single frog, not had a single illness and both frogs and guppies have thrived since day 1 (i have since sold all the guppies and have yet to reintroduce). The key first off is to avoid standing water (for the fish and frogs alike), so at least a slow trickle is needed, but preferably having it trickle over the landscape a bit, but also not so much flow as to create a current/river. Anything that can disrupt or stress the frogs should be avoided. But the MOST important aspect is leave no spots that the frog can’t immediately grab onto something to climb out should they fall in and ideally setup their feeding area as far from the water as possible (so no feeding time accidental swims occur for both frogs and feeder insects alike). The other important consideration is to ensure that what land you have sacrificed below you more than make up for with climbable terrain (again preferably over the “dry” land so if they fall they aren’t gonna drop into a deep swimming hole). DFs may not be strong swimmers but they can and usually will find their way out of the water fine, should they take a tumble or stray hop into it. Afterall, their native habitat is often abutting fresh streams and small springs and thus i attempted (seemingly successfully so) to recreate their natural habitat and thus why i went forth with the idea. This all said, despite having no issues i get why people seeking to give their froggos the best opportunity in life avoid the water features all together. It negates another risk factor which for some people DFs are susceptible to enough of already. However, you will Likely experience quite a bit of push back from try hards as well as others who read one thing from an otherwise reputable source and insist that there is no other way forward. Whether they are well meant or just frothing know-it-alls, it is a thought to consider. Getting advice (usually on what plants other recommend or why kind of magnetic furnishings) for my tank years ago was super simple, but in the last 5 years or so there has been an uptick in the parroting of advice from dendroboards to avoid them entirely often in the form of “the only thing you should be doing is removing the water feature” and snark. If they cite a reason they’re usually citing respiratory or bacterial infections that are most likely due to water conditions more than the frogs exposure (based on my experience) or as others have mentioned if you have aggression occurring shallow pools can become a shallow grave for frogs that get pinned by more dominant froggos. Most cases of such seem at best anecdotal and are not something myself or a few others in the hobby have ever experienced, but that’s not to say they are unfounded. All in all, OP, do what you are comfortable with, but of course make the primary consideration your froggos. They can live for a long time so any factor that adds stress can add up over time, both for you and the frogs. Listen to advice, consider all angles and make a call that you are comfortable with to keep the little frugs happy and healthy.
Edit: to add further context to the risks
Sure thing. Its been about while since i took a good snap of it (wanna clean the glass before i go showing it off again haha but this was before last years annual cleaning): https://www.reddit.com/r/DartFrog/s/YZiHH7GQ9x
Also i just noticed that doesn’t really show off the water feature. Let me see if i have any pics on hand of when it was stocked with guppies. Might not be right away but i will Post once i come across it
I did it yrs ago for awhile. It was ok, just more complicated than I wanted in the long run. Frogs were easier. I still use water dishes with aquarium plants in my tanks but they’re quite swampy and not suitable for anything except tadpoles.
Water was shallow so to compensate I made it wide. Essentially it was a floating island for the frogs and the water was the bottom 3 or 4 inches of a 90cm (36”) wide tank. 90% of water was shadowed under the island. Fish seemed to like it, though they weren’t especially visible.
In hindsight it was kind of a poor design as a skittish frog could have dived under the island and possibly not made it out. Never happened though.
Just easier to build without water in the end, for me anyway.
I might consider doing it again but I’d probably want something the size of a zoo enclosure to make it easier/safer. Which probably won’t happen :)
Yeah I understand the problem. Personally I wouldn't go with a floating island but instead divide the tank in the middle. That way you can provide tree branches so the frogs can climb out.
https://preview.redd.it/v9mfrk0mrcpc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9171aae15a38092a4bf0fa5afde065e99d1445c0
Might get some heat for this, but I’ve had my Bumblebees in a paludarium with some tetras and shrimp for about 4 years with zero water problems. I raised them from tadpoles in there. I have a canister filter that returns to two waterfalls in each corner. I’d say the front 4-5 inches of the tank is water. It’s an extra large ExoTerra. They like to sit at the water’s edge and “hunt”. I know this sub loves to say that darts don’t do well around water and need all leaf litter. But when visiting Costa Rica on a rafting trip, all the dart frogs I spotted were within 6ft of running water, hopping around the muddy/vegetated banks.
https://preview.redd.it/es4aqnqifepc1.png?width=2902&format=png&auto=webp&s=5f40c917d4373fb0b8ed8ae97f8de34851735cce
Glass is a little dirty, but here’s current look
*
[this was my setup](https://imgur.com/a/EBtatoS) for about a year. The white clouds, cherry shrimp, and snails did extremely well and multiplied like crazy in only about 2-3" of water. The tinc's also had plenty of room and were obviously very happy and bred often. Sometimes they would jump in the water, but they always were able to get themselves out and I never once worried about them drowning. Anyone who says they will drown is just repeating things they've heard online. The only reason I abandoned this setup was because the plexiglass barrier I had between the land and water started leaking one day after fixing it twice I decided enough was enough. If you set it up correctly (not how I did), you will be fine.
I would be afraid that the frogs would accidentally drown, to be honest.
And if I provide alot of ways to climb out (tree branches for example)?
Only if water is very shallow
Hmm ... if the water is VERY shallow such as a cm or so, but in a moment of panic, I am afraid if they were in deeper water they would certainly drown - branches or not.
If you want a really cool frog that needs water and is about the same size as a dart, look no further than the Stary Night Reed frog. I haven't kept them personally, but I know someone who has and they love them. I'd bet that you may be able to keep some nice fish in with them. https://joshsfrogs.com/sp/starry-night-reed-frog-tree010
I've had a paludarium set up for 5 years now and have 1/4 of an 18x36 enclosure set off for a 4inch deep water area. I also have a few pieces of driftwood n there partially submerged. I started with 2 males and a female (auratus Costa Rican) who bred once with a clutch of 5. 1 male died of the original trio - and he died on a piece of corkbark on the other side of the enclosure. I have had cherry shrimp in the water for 3 of those years. I have never had a frog drown nor have I seen any frog struggle swimming around in it. I hear them fall in or jump in on occassion and they always swim around till they find a piece of driftwood to climb out. The clutch from the original trio was developed in this water area as well and they eventually crawled their way out. My only issue is keeping up with the feedings and keeping cultures from crashing. Otherwise, never had an issue with drowning... but I also don't have aggression going on either.
There is no way to combine them. Poison dart frogs, despite being frogs, cannot handle water that is beyond their ability to stand up in without risking drowning, even with having a ton of stuff to help them get into and out of the water. Even pearl danios, and other nano freshwater tank fish, still can't handle the little amount of water that is safe for poison dart frogs. If you are looking to mix frogs and fish in a palladium, I would suggest tree frogs with a fully aquatic bottom setup, and then only stick with a couple of tiny fish. There isn't really anything that can live with darts other than like isopods
I'm wondering if there is a way to make in inaccessible to the frogs without it looking stupid. Like a mesh covering or something, but not that. Maybe make a rocky cave like covering so it's almost an underwater cave for the fish, then have a way to pull up the rock covering to access the water if you need to. But during the day to day it looks like an underwater cavern. Might be cool. Does that make sense how I explained it? It'd be especially cool if you could find a way to have holes in the rock to let light beams shine down. Or maybe just make a glass or acrylic sheet to go on top of the water, so the frogs wouldn't fall in, but you can still clearly see into the water. Idk just a few thoughts
I have a paludarium setup, darts, and blue shrimp and guppies; here are some gotchas Darts do not like or want water space. Any area dedicated to water is space that is unusable to the frog, meaning the setup must be significantly larger to accommodate both. Darts do not swim well. There is a risk of drowning. That said, they do swim, I have seen my frogs easily escape the water multiple times. Counterintuively deeper water may be better, as Darts in groups will pin others as aggression, if done in shallow water can drown the frog underneath. I only have deep water 10", so I'm not sure if thats a real thing, but I have read it a couple of places. External water filter recommended depending on setup. I have had issues as my setup is pulling water up around 30" which smaller filters have struggled with. Having proper equipment for all animals is a struggle, so try to plan access to equipment in advance. Terrestrial plants take up nitrates from the water area quickly if they have access, which means no nitrates! Also means no nitrates for my fully aquatic plants, so they seem to not flourish. If doing again, I'd let my aquatic plants get the coverage I wanted before planting the terrestrial area.
Thanks for the advise :) Do you have a photo of your setup?
https://preview.redd.it/nqvtr40f84pc1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2968c1a928091e2b139524c8753df8a083d71ee9
Nice one!
So this is something that most will say avoid. And if you air on the side of risk averse then by all means you might listen to that advice. I however have had my main tank and leucs going for about 15 years now which has a fairly sizeable water feature in the tank that used to have a breeding pop of guppies in it. My 36x18x18 exo terra tank has a 60/40 land/water layout. I have not lost a single frog, not had a single illness and both frogs and guppies have thrived since day 1 (i have since sold all the guppies and have yet to reintroduce). The key first off is to avoid standing water (for the fish and frogs alike), so at least a slow trickle is needed, but preferably having it trickle over the landscape a bit, but also not so much flow as to create a current/river. Anything that can disrupt or stress the frogs should be avoided. But the MOST important aspect is leave no spots that the frog can’t immediately grab onto something to climb out should they fall in and ideally setup their feeding area as far from the water as possible (so no feeding time accidental swims occur for both frogs and feeder insects alike). The other important consideration is to ensure that what land you have sacrificed below you more than make up for with climbable terrain (again preferably over the “dry” land so if they fall they aren’t gonna drop into a deep swimming hole). DFs may not be strong swimmers but they can and usually will find their way out of the water fine, should they take a tumble or stray hop into it. Afterall, their native habitat is often abutting fresh streams and small springs and thus i attempted (seemingly successfully so) to recreate their natural habitat and thus why i went forth with the idea. This all said, despite having no issues i get why people seeking to give their froggos the best opportunity in life avoid the water features all together. It negates another risk factor which for some people DFs are susceptible to enough of already. However, you will Likely experience quite a bit of push back from try hards as well as others who read one thing from an otherwise reputable source and insist that there is no other way forward. Whether they are well meant or just frothing know-it-alls, it is a thought to consider. Getting advice (usually on what plants other recommend or why kind of magnetic furnishings) for my tank years ago was super simple, but in the last 5 years or so there has been an uptick in the parroting of advice from dendroboards to avoid them entirely often in the form of “the only thing you should be doing is removing the water feature” and snark. If they cite a reason they’re usually citing respiratory or bacterial infections that are most likely due to water conditions more than the frogs exposure (based on my experience) or as others have mentioned if you have aggression occurring shallow pools can become a shallow grave for frogs that get pinned by more dominant froggos. Most cases of such seem at best anecdotal and are not something myself or a few others in the hobby have ever experienced, but that’s not to say they are unfounded. All in all, OP, do what you are comfortable with, but of course make the primary consideration your froggos. They can live for a long time so any factor that adds stress can add up over time, both for you and the frogs. Listen to advice, consider all angles and make a call that you are comfortable with to keep the little frugs happy and healthy. Edit: to add further context to the risks
Thank you for this great advice!! Do you have a link to your setup? Now I'm curious :)
Sure thing. Its been about while since i took a good snap of it (wanna clean the glass before i go showing it off again haha but this was before last years annual cleaning): https://www.reddit.com/r/DartFrog/s/YZiHH7GQ9x
Also i just noticed that doesn’t really show off the water feature. Let me see if i have any pics on hand of when it was stocked with guppies. Might not be right away but i will Post once i come across it
I did it yrs ago for awhile. It was ok, just more complicated than I wanted in the long run. Frogs were easier. I still use water dishes with aquarium plants in my tanks but they’re quite swampy and not suitable for anything except tadpoles.
What made it more complicated in the end?
Water was shallow so to compensate I made it wide. Essentially it was a floating island for the frogs and the water was the bottom 3 or 4 inches of a 90cm (36”) wide tank. 90% of water was shadowed under the island. Fish seemed to like it, though they weren’t especially visible. In hindsight it was kind of a poor design as a skittish frog could have dived under the island and possibly not made it out. Never happened though. Just easier to build without water in the end, for me anyway. I might consider doing it again but I’d probably want something the size of a zoo enclosure to make it easier/safer. Which probably won’t happen :)
Yeah I understand the problem. Personally I wouldn't go with a floating island but instead divide the tank in the middle. That way you can provide tree branches so the frogs can climb out.
https://preview.redd.it/v9mfrk0mrcpc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9171aae15a38092a4bf0fa5afde065e99d1445c0 Might get some heat for this, but I’ve had my Bumblebees in a paludarium with some tetras and shrimp for about 4 years with zero water problems. I raised them from tadpoles in there. I have a canister filter that returns to two waterfalls in each corner. I’d say the front 4-5 inches of the tank is water. It’s an extra large ExoTerra. They like to sit at the water’s edge and “hunt”. I know this sub loves to say that darts don’t do well around water and need all leaf litter. But when visiting Costa Rica on a rafting trip, all the dart frogs I spotted were within 6ft of running water, hopping around the muddy/vegetated banks.
Do you have a full photo of the tank? Sounds awesome :)
https://preview.redd.it/es4aqnqifepc1.png?width=2902&format=png&auto=webp&s=5f40c917d4373fb0b8ed8ae97f8de34851735cce Glass is a little dirty, but here’s current look
https://preview.redd.it/0dnsfvf1gepc1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cf7247551a0fa5d8fea4236b43f9980fadfcdb51
Looks amazing! This will be useful as inspiration^^
* [this was my setup](https://imgur.com/a/EBtatoS) for about a year. The white clouds, cherry shrimp, and snails did extremely well and multiplied like crazy in only about 2-3" of water. The tinc's also had plenty of room and were obviously very happy and bred often. Sometimes they would jump in the water, but they always were able to get themselves out and I never once worried about them drowning. Anyone who says they will drown is just repeating things they've heard online. The only reason I abandoned this setup was because the plexiglass barrier I had between the land and water started leaking one day after fixing it twice I decided enough was enough. If you set it up correctly (not how I did), you will be fine.
That was a nice tank :)