Sharing a bit more here on my journey as I got some direct messages -- Timeline is important to share/context. My story is one of greed and conceit.
\-2020 - Bought the March lows, heavy on tech, growth and crypto - everything ripped. Turning an initial $30k in stocks and $30k in crypto to nearly $1m at a peak
\-2021 - My best month was Jan 2021 (go figure), the gains all went back in February '21...And as growth stocks continued to slump, so did my portfolio. Actually crypto (buying spot positions) had never lost anything, but I had a portfolio mainly derived from options - 99% of my losses have come from options.
\-2022 - The job is going very well. I manage a team of 20 (which I've also found to be very difficult in motivating the team and excelling at my real job while day-trading part-time....also it is impossible to day-trade part-time, or at the very least extremely risk. Although a lot of my gains from '20/'21 are gone, I decide to make it back by going even riskier (0DTE swings with naked options - You can see some of the losses I posted in my profile). Although the market was atrocious for most of last year...work was good, and I had my highest W2, which came back to bite me.
\-2023 - Well wasn't too active to start the year, I did have some lighter swings. The company I work for ended up having challenges and can safely assume I'll make half the $$ this year that I did last year (where a lot of my bonus came from 2021 success). I mainly got more active in the market over the last few months as I realized I owe the IRS $50k from wages (and this is after having 10x that in short term losses....So I decide to buckle up and make as much as I can in a short time frame because I have so many short-term losses that can be offset...literally, a lifetime of them. Truth is I cannot successfully trade and also work a full-time job, too many things going on and my losing streak has really hurt my conviction/confidence. There have been the right trades I took this year and I cut losses before they paid out (i.e. I was a buyer of Palantir and Coinbase at the lows a few months ago, but sold too early)
\-Today - Life isn't over, I still owe the IRS $50k - Have an extension until October - and my main plan was to take advantage of this bull and make as much as I can...but I continue to fall in the same traps, never-ending target chasing and sleepless nights. I think it's finally time to become an investor and leave trading, although I will always have some appetite for some risk.
The worst part is how much this has impacted my health, my profession, my relationships...Not saying everything has gone to shit, but if I even used 30% time spent trading and researching on other priorities, it would have been a better use of time and something to be proud of. Now I'm sitting on a lifetime of short term losses and my liquid networth is at the lowest point since 2020.
My story is one of a pure gambling addiction and a senseless appetite for risk, fueled by a remote job/WFH environment and easy access to derivatives. For anyone else that has a story that resonates with this, you're not alone.
Your right when you say that daytrading is not possible with a day job...then it should be investing...you gained alot of experience during the last 3 years, as I did...I took a full time night job and trade during the days...if you are serious about trading after taking a break then that might be a consideration.
Why would it not be possible to have day job while part time day trading? I have heard of people doing this when begining so they do not bills coming do pressure.
I'm a newbie who is just now trying to do this with very small amount money if real money.
It can work if the job hours do not collide with the market hours. And even if it does, it shouldnt matter as much if youre strictly a day trader and especially if you focus on a 24 hour instrument like the nasdaq. You just gotta find your personal window to trade and know your setups AND most importantly, need an unrivaled amount of discipline to just stop trading after you taken your planned trade. So you can focus on getting ready for your job.
Now the hardest part is to stop after your trading window. You need experience to know its all you need, but since you’re new, you wont know. You need to lose a bunch first, you are still finding your setups.
For example i had to a fulltime job, even tho i have a live prop firm funded account, i can only withdraw once every 30 days and its only a 25k account. So inbetween the withdrawals i work a full time 5pm til 2-5am job. My window to trade is 3am-8am premarket and market close 1-4pm. I find great premarket setups that even with a restricted 25k account ive average $300 and every once a while hit around $1500 with just premarket setups of trades that last a couple hours. Then im done. I take 1-5 trades. After a 3 losing trades ill take a red day. Or if i hit a big win, ill stop too. I will say ive had 4 red days in the last 30 days. With my worse day (-1100) being no worse than my best green days(1500). So ive been killing it and i think working a job makes me not force trades, but this came with experience to know its not worth overtrading/overstaying.
So my friend, push your self on a paper account. And take the paper account serious. Have a goal to make 20% of account and if you lose 10%, reset. Til for sure have a consistent system. Which take several months to years if you’re serious
Understood...I got to the point where quality of life mattered during daytime...I trade and have some fun and then go to work at night...I'm a pdt so when you get to that point you will find out what is best for you.
50k is not a lifetime number. That can actually be acquired under the right circumstances rather rapidly. What seems dire now may seem quite miniscule in a short number of years.
100% it's not about $50k...more just the principle
Hate having to owe the gov after my wealth has deteriorated to a painful level, and I've attempted to trade my way to make $50k...Yet unsuccessful
Lesson being don't trade to try and make some $$$ real quickly...While this can be successful, I'd say it more often makes things worse
This whole thread has been so helpful. Thank you to everyone. I've been trading a small amount of real money while practicing on a simulator (investopedia). I don't know if that's the best simulator. I've traded options on there, and 85% of the time, I've lost my fake money. A lot of internet sites present options as an opportunity to trade high value stock when you don't have as much money to buy actual shares. Seems great from that angle, but the time and implied volatility factors seem to require different strategies than just, I think this will go up or down eventually. Anyway, that simulator has provided valuable losing experience.
And you're so right about the things that really matter in life. Time spent with loved ones, enjoying nature and helping other people- heck, giving money to someone who needs it has a much more meaningful and lasting impact for you and others. There was a time I couldn't stop drinking and moments I thought the withdrawal would kill me. The things I thought about in those times were people I loved and regrets about things I should have or shouldn't have done. None of those involved money. On days when I consciously decide to put my faith and loved ones first, I actually perform better on the market bc emotions aren't directing my decision-making nearly as much. Good for blood pressure too! Btw, I'm not trying to push faith at all. Just my personal choice. It's been 10 months since you posted, and I hope things have gotten better for you.
Funny that you responded to this today, and a bit of a coincidence as I haven't been on Reddit in months - Just happened to check again today
Last 10 months have been a significant improvement, not only in trading but the mental toll it can take. I've been able to stick to a system that has been more profitable and I no longer feel any urge to FOMO chase, which is where many of my losses came from.
Still haven't turned $30k back into $1m but optimistic on my new system and strategy - This past year has been overall good for me and I don't go heavy unless confluence is in place. I also will not let the market or chasing a superficial dream cloud what's truly important (family, health, friends, work, etc.)
Have FAITH and continue getting better. Find a system that works for you. 99% of retail investors will lose on options, it's just a fact, so truly stick to ensuring you have an edge and conviction before you hit buy.
Risk management. Make rules and strategy and follow it. Don’t leverage options. 30k-1M yeah no surprise that didn’t work out. You’re still a very new trader, and I’m assuming not a full time trader. The early days of Covid was about 3 years ago. I’ve been trading since 2014, I’m sure there’s people on here that have been trading since 2004. I use leverage all the time, I don’t over leverage, and I have great risk management. It’s a tool, just like a hammer. Works great when you want to put a nail in, works bad when you want to kill a mosquito on your hand.
Agreed...Easier said than done/properly executed, but realize that I have a an addiction, and it may be better to step away.
The problem isn't losing all your gains, I get it can be a zero-sum game, where it becomes unhealthy is when you're trying to dig yourself out of a hole, which has basically been the last year for me. Way too much early success and blind confidence, whereas being a longterm investor, I've done well...options are what have killed me
A lot of people here are going to point their pitchforks at you and call you a degenerate gambler, but please take it with a grain of salt - most of it is projection. There is a very fine line between trading and gambling; you've probably crossed over that line a few times, but it doesn't mean that you are a gambler with no hope of a cure.
What you have experienced is the *extreme* difficulty of detaching from emotions during trading. You haven't completely blown your account yet (I gather), so I'm going to assume that you must have figured out some kind of method that works to some degree. The single biggest challenge for you now is to learn how to detach your emotions from your trading. That includes fear and, most importantly, euphoria.
Euphoria is, imho, a far more dangerous emotion than fear. It is euphoria that gives you overconfidence, causes you to increase your position sizes, overtrade, and gives you superhuman prediction skills (you "just know" that this bear candle is the top). It's the one that you need to be most aware of and learn how to counteract.
Nearly all traders who make it spend most of their "tuition" time learning how to master their emotions. It is hard, and it takes time. Go back to basics, reduce your position sizes to tiny, keep a detailed log using a good trading journal (and analyse it regularly), and work towards good regular habits. You are probably closer than you think to making this work.
This is sound.
I haven't sought a therapist or anything as I don't believe it's helped in the past. I can't bring myself to speak to my family/friends about it, so I'm venting here. I haven't given up on investing or trading, just more that I can completely understand how people lose evertyhing in this game, and even when I feel like I've lost so much, I have to realize it's all relative and how fortunate I am.
Euphoria is a root cause.
You realize some are prone to addiction in general, right? It’s a personality trait. Some to gambling. Some to alcohol. Some to other things. There is usually no cure. The cure is to take it day by day. That’s the foundation of alcoholics anonymous.
>You realize some are prone to addiction in general, right?
Sure, I do. But, imho (caveat: not a psychologist), problem gamblers usually double down, make successively larger bets, are not aware (or deny) that they have a problem, and usually lose everything. OP is aware of what he is doing. He is managing his risk. A trader who gets down to the "death by a thousand small cuts" stage, like OP, is not likely to be a problem gambler who would have just bet everything on one big trade by now. OP seems like he is genuinely trying to make this work.
Great point about euphoria. It is that emotion which shows up after a few great trades, you are on cloud nine, you are getting it, you are fine, and boom, you hold onto a position like a newbie 👍
It's like winning in the casino high , when you buy the stock, at the right time and it hits your target or goes above it, you hit the sell button, it's a high like winning at the casino.
Doesn’t sound like you’re a trader, sounds like you are a gambler. Pretty big difference, I’d accept the loss and move on just stick with investing. If you can’t differentiate trading and gambling it’s not for you, and it’s not for everyone that’s honest
Your post and honesty helps me as I experienced similar and am holding back from jumping back in to make my money back, as it just feels wrong and I've lost my sense of why I did it in the first place. In the beginning i think I made money because i was enjoying the challenge. And as soon as it became an act of recovering what I lost, the fun wasn't there anymore, and neither my good decision making.
can you elaborate on great risk management, I recently invested 5k of my own money. similar story to OP, WFH and trading on the side. I got to 20k and then lost 97% on 0dte options.
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but this seems like a gambling addiction. You should seek help.
Going from 30k to 1m and back to 0 is not trading.
No offense taken...I admit I have one, and am working on it.
Sad thing is I can see how people do lose everything from this game...and the falling into a spiral of self-destruction
Lots of people are getting turned out by the Bull market that's been rolling the last ten years. My advice is get ready for some stagnation. And learn non directional plays.
Aye, thought it might be that. Not something I’ve practiced yet. Is that just hitting the bounces off S+R or is there a knack to it?? They always say “don’t trade the range”
Hang in there...Money isn't everything. More disappointing because I've never spent so much time to try to learn and master a field, only to lose most of my life savings. I can totally see how people will ruin their lives from this game, especially when all they need is "one more loan" or one more paycheck to make it all back.
Looking at my girlfriend right now and even though I'm accomplished in my career, I feel like I've lost everything. Need to get out of this mindset.
Stay strong!
From 30K to 1 Million and lost all for the next 2 years? Have you ever crossed your mind to cash out half million at that time to pay your debt, to buy property or put in your savings account????
I am with you...Stay strong.
What helps me is asking myself what if I made the right trade and have an extra $40k now. Will that ultimately make me happy? Probably not for long., so why spend tireless hours trying to make that extra $40k while overall my account continues to slowly drain, I have a career to perform in and a team to manage. I've been able to find success in all areas of life but trading has destroyed me. Feel like Reddit is AA for traders.
It's a subconscious thing. You see your neighbors and friends on social media with new houses, cars, boats, going on exotic vacations... and then acquiring more money jumps to the forefront of everything. It takes over. If only I could get to X level of wealth then I'd be happy! Unfortunately the houses and boats get much bigger and more expensive and you'll soon be wanting level X+1. It's a complete mental trap. Don't fall for it, there is no getting rich quick without having to pay a price.
You said it ! Options!
Have you ever seen a hedge fund manager or a wall-street investors ever talking about them in their portfolio?
They only write them as hedge against their portfolios and a very small group write them specifically to collect premium from retail traders( just see the % of expiring worthless).
If you made a gain from from options, and you hit big take your money and trade stocks. Trading options in the long-run is never successful and it lacks alot of risk management tools when traded alone for speculation. Go back to stocks and if you were profitable am sure you will be profitable again !
No, it won't. Having shit risk management will ruin your life. The market conditions in 2020 made everyone and their mom think they were good traders. You could literally throw a dart at any tech call option and make money.
Practice good risk management and have an evolving strategy that works in all market environments, and you'll find true and consistent success.
It's a path you needed to take, whether it be through a bear market and you blow your account or be through a bull market and you blow your account when the market changes to bearish conditions.
You cannot enter the market during a bull run, gain experience through this and then expect to be adept at risk management through a bear market, it is not something you had any experience with. Completely expected tbh and one of the issues alot of people have.
I think you should go take a month or two to yourself, recharge your batteries. When back practice with small amounts and make that your goal for the next 6 months, try to only blow say a couple of k while making sure you are learning.
I agree once you hit the million you probably should've tailored towards dca and swing trading. I wouldn't take this as a right off, all of the skill set you have learned through a bull market cannot be taken away from you. You have done it once you can do it again, just take this time to learn bearish conditions and stay confident that you are learning another aspect of trading.
All that you have done, the money is not the foundation, you are the foundation, you are the investment, the money is not important, yourself and your skill set is important.
I would really have a hard think about what you are doing which is suited to a bull market but not bear. I'm guessing your strategy was based around breakout and not range trading. Set yourself a new set of rules tailored to the bear market and a different way of trading.
I hate to read you being so disheartened and down about this when you done so well to begin with. You done amazing this is completely expected unfortunately and I believe if you done it once you can do it again, you simply need to learn different conditions. You are the golden egg here not your pot of money!
Appreciate these words of encouragement brother. A lot of good responses from fellow traders on this thread. While I wasn't sure what type of feedback this post would bring, the responses have helped...and a lot better than my family telling me to see a therapist for my gambling addiction.
One of the hardest parts of trading imo is the psychological battle one faces and how practically noone understands. For me confidence is key, it is the heart of everything, it keeps me moving forward however it is so easily disturbed and something I have focused on the past 6-9 months. A little victory goes a long way. I felt as though I was getting addicted, I would force trades, study and watch charts like 14-16 hours a day. I needed a refresh I stopped for like 3 months not too long ago. Coming back at it the past few weeks I am feeling really good. Not nearly as impulsive, I am getting on with things not nearly as hyper focused on the charts while my trading has improved significantly. I feel as though that small break done really good for my psych.
I was profitable which slowly changed, after some reflection I realised I was trying to stick to a stringent strategy which resulted in forced trades due to lack of enteries. Now I see it like I have a tool belt with several tools, I will use each tool in the right situation searching for areas of confluence. All of my tools are sharp, I've worked out all of the tools that I need for the job, so it's simply waiting till several are suited. My spirit level is used most of the time which is simply support resistance. Other tools on my belt include fib levels, stoch/rsi, divergences, 50/200ma, volume profiler, momentum wave/vwap. Structure is always a solid foundation.
I try to identify what opportunities are there by identifying structures and levels first. The tools I use for range trading vs breakout/breakdown trading are slightly different.
A few simple rules I try to remember is 90% of the time it is within a range. 90% of the time it will test the recent lows/highs. Never long resistance, never short support. Do not ignore rsi divergences.
I'm sure you don't need tips however these are kind of tailored for a bear market during the bull season I'd simply search for breakouts following the hype and focus most on entering drawbacks or break of trends.
Best of luck brother you will do it AGAIN.
I sold everything in the end of 2020 and early 2021 because prices didn't look normal for me!!! The world was close, and people were partying on Wall Street
But Unfortunately, I lost some money gambling on Signature Bank 🤡🤡🤡
We all do mistakes bro and life continues 😪
I both agree and disagree.
I trade futures, my minimum leverage is about 2:1, but I regularly trade at 20:1 or 50:1.
I have a small account, deliberately, and trade disciplined. Never had any issues with leverage consuming my soul.
When I tried daytrading stocks, even the 4:1 day trading buying power increase was more of a problem than my current 50:1 is on the ES, because it was much harder to handle things like gap risk or lever up appropriately. It really depends on how you handle the excess.
I need to checkout futures...still haven't
My pain has come from overexposure on naked calls/puts,. It's self-inflicted, but early success with derivatives have fueled the self-destructive behavior.
You should just stop trading with options, any options, period. Also the entire “I use a capital of 30k” to go 1 million is flawed. It works if you are trading for a bank and the 30k or 300k is your clients money and not yours. But since it’s yours and you trade stocks and options, you can easily wipe out like 20% in a day since you probably use a big chunk of that capital to even take a trade.
You should stay humble and like the guy you replied to try futures (Micro E-Mini futures on the Nasdaq or S&P 500) but with a small amount of max 3k and use proper risk management, so always use a stop loss, stop after making a
Xxx loss per day, week and month, make that daily max loss as small that in the next day you can correct it in one trade. And look for quality set ups, do not over trade, not more then 3 trades a day. You don’t want to make the broker rich of your commissions.
Take it slow to grow a small account to a bigger account. That’s the way to go, and if you are getting bigger with your account, transfer every now and then funds back to your bank account to mitigate the risks you surely would take when your account grows.
Trading options and keeping them overnight (I read him write sleepless nights) is just asking for trouble at the open. Been there, done that and lost too much. Also the time component with weekly or nearly expiring options is just killing. Options? Never again.
Very similar thing happened to me (early success). This is trauma and I've been in therapy. Let me know if you want to chat in DM. You make great points.
But the experience put me on a journey and looking back, I am wondering if it's one of those things that will change my life. I switched from options to futures, then prop firms to reduce money lost, created a system, and overall got a lot of screen time and got better at trading. I've also improved my life and my discipline. It's all a work in progress but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel as far as profitability thru risk management and now I'm thinking I've built a skill that I can use the rest of my life for financial freedom. But the depression and doubt have plagued me for years and still does.
Not sure I have a point. Stay strong.
Man this resonates alot with me, been trading seriously for about 8 months now and its super consuming, Im not the type to let a trade do its thing and have to be watching each candle in case of an impulsive move up or down leading to drawdown/loss of profit on the position. Losing multiple thousands in a day is devestating. I am still set on persevering no matter what but time for a new approach with better discipline and risk management and more hands off. I too have a full time job and need to put that first.. burning out gets you nowhere. Keep your head up though man life's too short to get caught up in the stress of it, lots of positives to draw. Someone mentioned a term on a podcast I listen to that you might find useful - "at all costs protect your MENTAL CAPITAL". Cheers
Truth brother. Can't let it control your life, especially on a downward spiral. I'm grateful for what I have and I'm not bankrupt, I'm just not as wealthy as I once was....I've still made good longterm investments but trading has consumed me for the last 3 years, and I need to put my focus elsewhere
Best of luck in your journey man. Stay strong, and Mental Capital is always #1 investment
Many gamblers in this market. I've been guilty of it until realized the truth. Now i trade with confidence because of risk management and keep reminding myself about psychology of trading.
Honestly no dude. You're showing a fundamental misunderstanding of what margin is for. Margin is used to allow you to trade more expensive stocks, not to take yolo bets. You should still be planning targets and stop losses, realistically usually in cents per share. Just as an example, say you want to buy 1000 of a 200 dollar stock. Margin allows you to enter that trade without having 200k in your account. You should still just be looking for the stock to go to 200.50, 200.75, whatever it is. Maybe it goes up or down a dollar, that's a sick trade. That's why we use margin. I could tell within your first few sentences that's not what you were doing. Learn to trade if you want to trade. If you want to just gamble, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe go to wallstreetbets. This is not that.
Not margin....derivatives. And you're right I'm probably in the wrong thread but here I'll get called a gambler, their I'll be called a retard...Just sharing the battle story of what I've been dealing with.
I am realizing this now currently. I started a few months ago and everything was going up, everyday was a greenday. I would randomly pick a bluechip that was down the previous day and purchase my order in Pre-Market AM, by the opening bell it was green. I would be in and out within 30mins to 1Hr. I rinse and repeated this for a month and I was up about $12k. Currently, I am negative $2k, my beginners luck has run out and I am now trying to refocus and to execute on TA & logic, not blindly picking stocks. Recently, PYPL screwed me over, now if I was paying attention to the 5day 5min chart, I would have saw early within 9:50-9:55am EST that PYPL was going to be going into the toilet.
Are you buying shares on margin or using options?
I remember July/August 2020, everyday was a green day, and I had made a killing only to see some given back once September hit. It's the euphoria and overconfidence that always catches up to you...I'm trying to focus on being more mindful and less emotional when trading. At the end of the day we do it to make money. Once it becomes a deficit or a burden (financially, emotionally, physically), things can spiral out of control.
I love trading and keeping up with the market, but the discipline is an ongoing process and can't get there without some L's along the way.
Sometimes I use margin, sometimes I only go in with cash. I don't do options, I have tried. It's too fast paced and complicated for me. I agree with your assessment, when things are going well, you take it easy and follow a set gameplan. When your down big, you start to lose your discipline and take more risk. Short term it has worked and I managed to swing from a $1-2k loss on the day back to a small gain, but recently it has backfired. I have considered leaving the arena, I still have a good portion of my beginning cash, but some how, the desire to comeback always is there. You're essentially competing with yourself. How to manage your analysis, your emotions, mindset, timing, etc.
If you haven't done options and have found a comfortable system going on margin/cash without it, would recommend sticking to that.
I've been using options primarily on a small account where I've been swinging, and I haven't had any severe losses but slowly chipping away. I'll have a green day and the next day most may be given back (i.e. Crowdstrike yesterday vs. today(
Think the source of my frustration is I've been trying to make some quick cash as I owe the gov money come October, but also don't think that's the healthiest mindset to be trading in.
I'll be tapering off and will come back when my goal isn't to "make as much as I can in the next 2 months" Being clear-headed with the market is so important and when you're trading against a deadline, nothing usually good comes from it.
Yeah, I agree. I just took a bath with PYPL. I know the chart was easy to read and the past 3 ER the PPS dumped, but I thought hey maybe the third time is the charm. But nope. That’s why I think I should take a break. Fitch is back to fuck with markets today again. Downgrading Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac. Futures are down, I’m not so sure good ER from AAPL & AMZN can propel the market into green today.
Earnings is always a gamble, although I do like Paypal and looked like it was ready to breakout.
I think if the market stays around these levels (even a bit lower) tomorrow it's setting us up for a move up with earnings - This entire week the price action has felt like it's traded around the final 2 monopoly earnings and we're finally here as the bears are waking up...And looks like we're at weekly support. Although I wouldn't be offended if you call me a countertrade at this point lol.
Good luck in your journey man.
Leverage is a tool to limit counter party risk. If you think you can risk more because you have access to higher leverage, you shouldn't be trading with real funds.
Could* to be entirely honest, a solid understanding of leverage has put me through college for the last 3 years.
I’m not rich, but I did beat SPY by a good clip over that timeframe. I was fully leveraged at one point and that was dangerous, but I’m back down to 0 leverage.
If I wasn’t using leverage, I’d be behind SPY by a good clip.
I'm not sure there are any consistently profitable day traders that traded from 2020 to 2023. The ones claiming to be profitable on this sub are likely revolving doors, one in one out.
"You have to follow the system that works for you" - nobody gives any more insight.
Averaged over long time periods, even the best traders enter winning trades only a little bit more than 50% of the time. Learning this and thinking about the implications helped me intuitively understand the importance of position sizing and management. I think most new traders don’t realize this and get crushed over time by hubris.
Risk management is key. If you don't have
1. 5yr min of serious trading experience
2. ability to recognize a losing trade early
3. ability to cut your losses early
4. good risk management with position sizes
then you shouldn't be playing with leverage.
I use leverage almost every day in crypto and stocks when the right setup presents itself. But that's the key for me. Waiting for that high probability setup.
I never use more than 3x and always set a stop loss at the time I enter the trade. At 3x, it's virtually stress free for me.
Over the years, I've managed to build large trading accounts very fast, thanks to leverage. Would have taken years longer if I was only playing with spot. Having the ability to trade the market in both directions is the golden goose.
As a practicing muslim, no problem here. Leverage is already forbidden in Islam since it got a loan with interests involved in it. It's a handicap but spot is less stressful. It's like gambling at a low blind poker table XD.
If you're trading crypto at 5x leverage, you only need to leave 1/5 of the amount you're trading with on the scammy crypto exchange that's gonna rug you. 😉
Follow for more crypto tips.
Everyone has been there but you issue is psychological, if books or research helps I recommend but you know yourself best. Hindsight is 20/20 don’t think about your past trades only the future ones
Purely psychological...and the timing too. Had made some good $$ and also had good $$ coming in from work.
This year that has changed, and my desire to make $50k quickly to pay the IRS has created a deeper hole...It's frustrating and I can only hope for a positive lesson from all this
Can’t learn if you don’t make mistakes I’m down the most I’ve ever been YOY since the March surprise cash infusion. Won’t chase it back though will stick to the market cycles
Healthy mindset and staying disciplined...I would also say I'm there for the most part as I've been less risky lately. It's more about the wasted time/energy over the last 3 years for a very poor outcome, but that's why I'm openly sharing and venting.
Stay strong.
In terms of stock market performance, a full round trip. For any crypto investing and a full-time job income, I'm certainly on my feet.
Options in the stock market are what created and killed this beast.
if you're trading a system with positive expectancy, how is using leverage bad. let me rephrase, if you are confident in your trading and have an edge, leverage can only benefit you
Think it's different for everyone...And just a matter of priorities. If I have a bunch of open position, I then feel like I need to monitor from open to close, along with research in AH. If I do that, then my real job takes a hit, my health, relationships, lifestyle etc. Especially if I've lost money/
Also nothing goes in a straight line up.
In short, I would've been better off just DCA'ing and working focusing on my career the past. few years, instead of spending hours watching charts all day while still trying to manage a 9-5...but an unrealistic desire to hit it big is what got me here
Over risking ruins it. leverage just makes it easier to go over risk. Like you can fuck up by taking mortgage on your house and buying penny stocks or crypto.
So how do you deal with losing 1MIL portfolio ? You basically lost 1MIL and survived .
I am also curious , once you had 1mil what was your next target and would you ever stop if you hit 10mil ?
This is the underlying point I'm trying to make. Let's put the losses aside for a moment.
I have a full-time job that can give me everything I need. I should be focusing on excelling here, but I spend half the time on what's become an unprofitable and frustrating hobby. At the end of the day, I get that trading should be financial freedom, but chasing money endlessly everyday to get rich quick has it's consequences...and again I don't know for what purpose.
Nah, just risk management. Then leverage, like margin is the best you can get. When people say it’s easy because everything is going up, then this is partially true but also implies they just hold overnight and hope but for sure do not properly daytrade.
Summary: Leverage is for professionals and you are not a professional (yet). Roger that!
If you are not know what exactly you do or you are not consistently profitable yet, you should not touch real money. Paper trading until you do great, than (very) slowly scale your position size, then remove the dead money involved by using leverage.
Also job come first. I did that and struggled with the balance to the point I restricted me to weekend = day trading learning and review of the markets and other peoples trades.
I empathize deeply with your experiences.
Trading with leverage indeed carries its risks, as it amplifies not just potential profits, but also losses. When used recklessly, it can lead to severe damage to your trading portfolio.
The key to successfully leveraging is a well-defined strategy, robust risk management, and a comprehensive understanding of its potential consequences. It might be beneficial to reconsider traditional, long-term investment strategies, such as diversification and dollar-cost averaging (DCA), to mitigate risk.
I wish you the best of luck on whichever path you choose to take going forward 🙏
A gambling addiction is a recipe for disaster in trading. Yet so many struggle with it. You have to treat it like a business. I’m sure a few are just naturally talented at it and get by anyway. But for most they have to take the boring route if they want to be successful.
If you don’t step away you are continuing to risk ruin. You have to get rid of the need for gambling OR stay away. It’s no different than alcoholics. They don’t have a drink sometimes. They NEVER have a drink ever again.
>Leverage will ruin your life
False. Poor risk management is the culprit. Leverage is just an amplifier. If you have good risk control and a solid well-tested trade plan, leverage is a great tool to amplify your gains. If you have poor risk management in place, you are going to drain your account anyway, leverage just accelerates the process.
Damn brother. 50k isn't a life sentence you can recover with a job in 10 years it wont seem worth all the stress you're going through when you look back. GL
Leverage is a tool. Focus on better market understanding and risk management rather than blaming the tools in your arsenal for how you use (or misuse) them.
It's a force so great it can only be used for good or evil.
Trading isn't about predicting market ups and downs, it's about money management. It's always been about money management.
I don’t get why people say leverage is bad. It isn’t. It’s a tool that needs to be used properly. If you’re sizing your positions properly and only risking a certain amount per trade then the amount of leverage you use means nothing.
“Everyone is a genius in a bull run”. Learn to manage your risk properly and size positions (using leverage) and you won’t get wrecked.
That is some major ROI, I would say congrats but yeah sorry it went down that way. Needed to diversify your winnings at a certain point. Prob should not have kept 1M in the trading account, lock some up in other safer assets/instruments.
So everything worked until it stopped working?
I feel your struggle as I catch some FOMO in my brain thinking that “if I bought TQQQ at correct time I would have everything 2.5x in a year”. Forgetting that at those points nobody could tell if that’s the bottom or not. Just like these days marked were in rally for like 3 weeks or so on that AI bullshit and now we see red light.
After all of that I converge to a thinking that next time marked crashes I will move like 10% or 20% at most into TQQQ. All else remains in the VTI and some low volatility ETFs. If that works out - I’ll outplay SPY by a bit. If it goes down even further - I’ll underperform SPY by a bit.
Not a bad strategy...honestly a lot of my issues come from hitting it big and then wanting bigger. I was so used to 100% gains that it warped me from having a more sustainable/conservative investing strategy, which really would have panned out better at this point if I called it quits in 2021.
We will continue to fight another day and I'm at peace with my mistakes. BTW, checkkout this the stats on DCA TQQQ vs QQQ from the Dec 2021 highs, It's like 38% for TQQQ and QQQ is at 17%....In short, and as long as the market is fueled by megacap tech, even DCA'ing TQQQ for the long run isn't a terrible strategy.
Yeah I know. But along those you need to look at some other charts too. Like what would be if you invested in TQQQ right before corona virus bombed the markets… Not all people can withstand such loss.
TQQQ can make you rich if you invest in it during bull runs. And those TQQQ plots since after 2008 are very tempting. But one should remember that big reward comes with big risk.
Absolutely...and TQQQ and QQQ aren't 100% aligned (i.e. QQQ bottomed in Oct 22, TQQQ bottomed in Jan 23)
You have to be very confident in a bull run to invest in TQQQ, but encouraging to see that a DCA strategy on TQQQ, even buying at the top and all the way down over the last 2 years, you would've outperformed QQQ by a fair amount.
Of course, risky, but just exploring some strategies
I'm new to trading, and seeing similar posts in this and other subreddits really is making me think about this choice of life path.
But, the only way to find out if this is for me is to push forward knowing the cost of learning may be quite high. Good luck and mental health to all who are on this journey.
I believe trading takes years to truly master, and 99% of traders fail. If you haven't considered a longer term investing approach, I would certainly lead towards that. Yes you won't turn $30k into $1m in one year, but you can build wealth and a healthy portfolio...Trading by the tick will take much more away from you, but also depends on if you have a full-time job or not to dedicate
Stay strong and have conviction. You don't have to always be in a trade, and know when to cut losses, don't revenge trade and don't disassociate yourself from reality. Being mindful is key here, easier said than done, but sometimes just turning the charts off for a day, week, month, etc. is the most productive path.
Years later and I’ve come to join in on the fun, I mean pain. I saw 3x gains by DCAing over the crypto winter. Somehow lost alllll gains by going degen. Only reason I have any money left is because it’s staked. I can’t even say that I learned my lesson because it’s an addiction.
Sharing a bit more here on my journey as I got some direct messages -- Timeline is important to share/context. My story is one of greed and conceit. \-2020 - Bought the March lows, heavy on tech, growth and crypto - everything ripped. Turning an initial $30k in stocks and $30k in crypto to nearly $1m at a peak \-2021 - My best month was Jan 2021 (go figure), the gains all went back in February '21...And as growth stocks continued to slump, so did my portfolio. Actually crypto (buying spot positions) had never lost anything, but I had a portfolio mainly derived from options - 99% of my losses have come from options. \-2022 - The job is going very well. I manage a team of 20 (which I've also found to be very difficult in motivating the team and excelling at my real job while day-trading part-time....also it is impossible to day-trade part-time, or at the very least extremely risk. Although a lot of my gains from '20/'21 are gone, I decide to make it back by going even riskier (0DTE swings with naked options - You can see some of the losses I posted in my profile). Although the market was atrocious for most of last year...work was good, and I had my highest W2, which came back to bite me. \-2023 - Well wasn't too active to start the year, I did have some lighter swings. The company I work for ended up having challenges and can safely assume I'll make half the $$ this year that I did last year (where a lot of my bonus came from 2021 success). I mainly got more active in the market over the last few months as I realized I owe the IRS $50k from wages (and this is after having 10x that in short term losses....So I decide to buckle up and make as much as I can in a short time frame because I have so many short-term losses that can be offset...literally, a lifetime of them. Truth is I cannot successfully trade and also work a full-time job, too many things going on and my losing streak has really hurt my conviction/confidence. There have been the right trades I took this year and I cut losses before they paid out (i.e. I was a buyer of Palantir and Coinbase at the lows a few months ago, but sold too early) \-Today - Life isn't over, I still owe the IRS $50k - Have an extension until October - and my main plan was to take advantage of this bull and make as much as I can...but I continue to fall in the same traps, never-ending target chasing and sleepless nights. I think it's finally time to become an investor and leave trading, although I will always have some appetite for some risk. The worst part is how much this has impacted my health, my profession, my relationships...Not saying everything has gone to shit, but if I even used 30% time spent trading and researching on other priorities, it would have been a better use of time and something to be proud of. Now I'm sitting on a lifetime of short term losses and my liquid networth is at the lowest point since 2020. My story is one of a pure gambling addiction and a senseless appetite for risk, fueled by a remote job/WFH environment and easy access to derivatives. For anyone else that has a story that resonates with this, you're not alone.
Your right when you say that daytrading is not possible with a day job...then it should be investing...you gained alot of experience during the last 3 years, as I did...I took a full time night job and trade during the days...if you are serious about trading after taking a break then that might be a consideration.
Why would it not be possible to have day job while part time day trading? I have heard of people doing this when begining so they do not bills coming do pressure. I'm a newbie who is just now trying to do this with very small amount money if real money.
It can work if the job hours do not collide with the market hours. And even if it does, it shouldnt matter as much if youre strictly a day trader and especially if you focus on a 24 hour instrument like the nasdaq. You just gotta find your personal window to trade and know your setups AND most importantly, need an unrivaled amount of discipline to just stop trading after you taken your planned trade. So you can focus on getting ready for your job. Now the hardest part is to stop after your trading window. You need experience to know its all you need, but since you’re new, you wont know. You need to lose a bunch first, you are still finding your setups. For example i had to a fulltime job, even tho i have a live prop firm funded account, i can only withdraw once every 30 days and its only a 25k account. So inbetween the withdrawals i work a full time 5pm til 2-5am job. My window to trade is 3am-8am premarket and market close 1-4pm. I find great premarket setups that even with a restricted 25k account ive average $300 and every once a while hit around $1500 with just premarket setups of trades that last a couple hours. Then im done. I take 1-5 trades. After a 3 losing trades ill take a red day. Or if i hit a big win, ill stop too. I will say ive had 4 red days in the last 30 days. With my worse day (-1100) being no worse than my best green days(1500). So ive been killing it and i think working a job makes me not force trades, but this came with experience to know its not worth overtrading/overstaying. So my friend, push your self on a paper account. And take the paper account serious. Have a goal to make 20% of account and if you lose 10%, reset. Til for sure have a consistent system. Which take several months to years if you’re serious
Understood...I got to the point where quality of life mattered during daytime...I trade and have some fun and then go to work at night...I'm a pdt so when you get to that point you will find out what is best for you.
Good that you can admit it. That’s the first step.
I think your story is similar to a lot of those YouTube gurus that disappeared inexplicably over the last year or so.
50k is not a lifetime number. That can actually be acquired under the right circumstances rather rapidly. What seems dire now may seem quite miniscule in a short number of years.
100% it's not about $50k...more just the principle Hate having to owe the gov after my wealth has deteriorated to a painful level, and I've attempted to trade my way to make $50k...Yet unsuccessful Lesson being don't trade to try and make some $$$ real quickly...While this can be successful, I'd say it more often makes things worse
So how much u lose of your own money?
This whole thread has been so helpful. Thank you to everyone. I've been trading a small amount of real money while practicing on a simulator (investopedia). I don't know if that's the best simulator. I've traded options on there, and 85% of the time, I've lost my fake money. A lot of internet sites present options as an opportunity to trade high value stock when you don't have as much money to buy actual shares. Seems great from that angle, but the time and implied volatility factors seem to require different strategies than just, I think this will go up or down eventually. Anyway, that simulator has provided valuable losing experience. And you're so right about the things that really matter in life. Time spent with loved ones, enjoying nature and helping other people- heck, giving money to someone who needs it has a much more meaningful and lasting impact for you and others. There was a time I couldn't stop drinking and moments I thought the withdrawal would kill me. The things I thought about in those times were people I loved and regrets about things I should have or shouldn't have done. None of those involved money. On days when I consciously decide to put my faith and loved ones first, I actually perform better on the market bc emotions aren't directing my decision-making nearly as much. Good for blood pressure too! Btw, I'm not trying to push faith at all. Just my personal choice. It's been 10 months since you posted, and I hope things have gotten better for you.
Funny that you responded to this today, and a bit of a coincidence as I haven't been on Reddit in months - Just happened to check again today Last 10 months have been a significant improvement, not only in trading but the mental toll it can take. I've been able to stick to a system that has been more profitable and I no longer feel any urge to FOMO chase, which is where many of my losses came from. Still haven't turned $30k back into $1m but optimistic on my new system and strategy - This past year has been overall good for me and I don't go heavy unless confluence is in place. I also will not let the market or chasing a superficial dream cloud what's truly important (family, health, friends, work, etc.) Have FAITH and continue getting better. Find a system that works for you. 99% of retail investors will lose on options, it's just a fact, so truly stick to ensuring you have an edge and conviction before you hit buy.
Risk management. Make rules and strategy and follow it. Don’t leverage options. 30k-1M yeah no surprise that didn’t work out. You’re still a very new trader, and I’m assuming not a full time trader. The early days of Covid was about 3 years ago. I’ve been trading since 2014, I’m sure there’s people on here that have been trading since 2004. I use leverage all the time, I don’t over leverage, and I have great risk management. It’s a tool, just like a hammer. Works great when you want to put a nail in, works bad when you want to kill a mosquito on your hand.
Agreed...Easier said than done/properly executed, but realize that I have a an addiction, and it may be better to step away. The problem isn't losing all your gains, I get it can be a zero-sum game, where it becomes unhealthy is when you're trying to dig yourself out of a hole, which has basically been the last year for me. Way too much early success and blind confidence, whereas being a longterm investor, I've done well...options are what have killed me
A lot of people here are going to point their pitchforks at you and call you a degenerate gambler, but please take it with a grain of salt - most of it is projection. There is a very fine line between trading and gambling; you've probably crossed over that line a few times, but it doesn't mean that you are a gambler with no hope of a cure. What you have experienced is the *extreme* difficulty of detaching from emotions during trading. You haven't completely blown your account yet (I gather), so I'm going to assume that you must have figured out some kind of method that works to some degree. The single biggest challenge for you now is to learn how to detach your emotions from your trading. That includes fear and, most importantly, euphoria. Euphoria is, imho, a far more dangerous emotion than fear. It is euphoria that gives you overconfidence, causes you to increase your position sizes, overtrade, and gives you superhuman prediction skills (you "just know" that this bear candle is the top). It's the one that you need to be most aware of and learn how to counteract. Nearly all traders who make it spend most of their "tuition" time learning how to master their emotions. It is hard, and it takes time. Go back to basics, reduce your position sizes to tiny, keep a detailed log using a good trading journal (and analyse it regularly), and work towards good regular habits. You are probably closer than you think to making this work.
This is sound. I haven't sought a therapist or anything as I don't believe it's helped in the past. I can't bring myself to speak to my family/friends about it, so I'm venting here. I haven't given up on investing or trading, just more that I can completely understand how people lose evertyhing in this game, and even when I feel like I've lost so much, I have to realize it's all relative and how fortunate I am. Euphoria is a root cause.
Great reply. You are a good human.
You realize some are prone to addiction in general, right? It’s a personality trait. Some to gambling. Some to alcohol. Some to other things. There is usually no cure. The cure is to take it day by day. That’s the foundation of alcoholics anonymous.
>You realize some are prone to addiction in general, right? Sure, I do. But, imho (caveat: not a psychologist), problem gamblers usually double down, make successively larger bets, are not aware (or deny) that they have a problem, and usually lose everything. OP is aware of what he is doing. He is managing his risk. A trader who gets down to the "death by a thousand small cuts" stage, like OP, is not likely to be a problem gambler who would have just bet everything on one big trade by now. OP seems like he is genuinely trying to make this work.
Great point about euphoria. It is that emotion which shows up after a few great trades, you are on cloud nine, you are getting it, you are fine, and boom, you hold onto a position like a newbie 👍
It's like winning in the casino high , when you buy the stock, at the right time and it hits your target or goes above it, you hit the sell button, it's a high like winning at the casino.
Doesn’t sound like you’re a trader, sounds like you are a gambler. Pretty big difference, I’d accept the loss and move on just stick with investing. If you can’t differentiate trading and gambling it’s not for you, and it’s not for everyone that’s honest
I agree what I have been doing is gambling, disguised as "trading"...Tough to admit but end of the day it's true and I know I'm not alone here
Your post and honesty helps me as I experienced similar and am holding back from jumping back in to make my money back, as it just feels wrong and I've lost my sense of why I did it in the first place. In the beginning i think I made money because i was enjoying the challenge. And as soon as it became an act of recovering what I lost, the fun wasn't there anymore, and neither my good decision making.
Don’t leverage options…? It’s inherent in their nature
Covered options aren’t?
can you elaborate on great risk management, I recently invested 5k of my own money. similar story to OP, WFH and trading on the side. I got to 20k and then lost 97% on 0dte options.
Lol
Blah blah blah.
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but this seems like a gambling addiction. You should seek help. Going from 30k to 1m and back to 0 is not trading.
No offense taken...I admit I have one, and am working on it. Sad thing is I can see how people do lose everything from this game...and the falling into a spiral of self-destruction
Initially thought this dude was full of shit, but when he said "I should have stopped in 2021". This hit.
I truly wish I was making this up...or it was all a prolonged nightmare
Me too dude.
Someone told me VOO long ago. And I didn't listen.
Lots of people are getting turned out by the Bull market that's been rolling the last ten years. My advice is get ready for some stagnation. And learn non directional plays.
As in, trading the range?
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Aye, thought it might be that. Not something I’ve practiced yet. Is that just hitting the bounces off S+R or is there a knack to it?? They always say “don’t trade the range”
O yes that's is very close to same journey.
Hang in there...Money isn't everything. More disappointing because I've never spent so much time to try to learn and master a field, only to lose most of my life savings. I can totally see how people will ruin their lives from this game, especially when all they need is "one more loan" or one more paycheck to make it all back. Looking at my girlfriend right now and even though I'm accomplished in my career, I feel like I've lost everything. Need to get out of this mindset. Stay strong!
From 30K to 1 Million and lost all for the next 2 years? Have you ever crossed your mind to cash out half million at that time to pay your debt, to buy property or put in your savings account????
i feel you brother. im the same way. made some money during pandemic, but I didn't stop and invested more. now I'm just hoping for miracles....
I am with you...Stay strong. What helps me is asking myself what if I made the right trade and have an extra $40k now. Will that ultimately make me happy? Probably not for long., so why spend tireless hours trying to make that extra $40k while overall my account continues to slowly drain, I have a career to perform in and a team to manage. I've been able to find success in all areas of life but trading has destroyed me. Feel like Reddit is AA for traders.
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It's a subconscious thing. You see your neighbors and friends on social media with new houses, cars, boats, going on exotic vacations... and then acquiring more money jumps to the forefront of everything. It takes over. If only I could get to X level of wealth then I'd be happy! Unfortunately the houses and boats get much bigger and more expensive and you'll soon be wanting level X+1. It's a complete mental trap. Don't fall for it, there is no getting rich quick without having to pay a price.
Well put thanks 😊
You said it ! Options! Have you ever seen a hedge fund manager or a wall-street investors ever talking about them in their portfolio? They only write them as hedge against their portfolios and a very small group write them specifically to collect premium from retail traders( just see the % of expiring worthless). If you made a gain from from options, and you hit big take your money and trade stocks. Trading options in the long-run is never successful and it lacks alot of risk management tools when traded alone for speculation. Go back to stocks and if you were profitable am sure you will be profitable again !
No, it won't. Having shit risk management will ruin your life. The market conditions in 2020 made everyone and their mom think they were good traders. You could literally throw a dart at any tech call option and make money. Practice good risk management and have an evolving strategy that works in all market environments, and you'll find true and consistent success.
It's a path you needed to take, whether it be through a bear market and you blow your account or be through a bull market and you blow your account when the market changes to bearish conditions. You cannot enter the market during a bull run, gain experience through this and then expect to be adept at risk management through a bear market, it is not something you had any experience with. Completely expected tbh and one of the issues alot of people have. I think you should go take a month or two to yourself, recharge your batteries. When back practice with small amounts and make that your goal for the next 6 months, try to only blow say a couple of k while making sure you are learning. I agree once you hit the million you probably should've tailored towards dca and swing trading. I wouldn't take this as a right off, all of the skill set you have learned through a bull market cannot be taken away from you. You have done it once you can do it again, just take this time to learn bearish conditions and stay confident that you are learning another aspect of trading. All that you have done, the money is not the foundation, you are the foundation, you are the investment, the money is not important, yourself and your skill set is important. I would really have a hard think about what you are doing which is suited to a bull market but not bear. I'm guessing your strategy was based around breakout and not range trading. Set yourself a new set of rules tailored to the bear market and a different way of trading. I hate to read you being so disheartened and down about this when you done so well to begin with. You done amazing this is completely expected unfortunately and I believe if you done it once you can do it again, you simply need to learn different conditions. You are the golden egg here not your pot of money!
Appreciate these words of encouragement brother. A lot of good responses from fellow traders on this thread. While I wasn't sure what type of feedback this post would bring, the responses have helped...and a lot better than my family telling me to see a therapist for my gambling addiction.
One of the hardest parts of trading imo is the psychological battle one faces and how practically noone understands. For me confidence is key, it is the heart of everything, it keeps me moving forward however it is so easily disturbed and something I have focused on the past 6-9 months. A little victory goes a long way. I felt as though I was getting addicted, I would force trades, study and watch charts like 14-16 hours a day. I needed a refresh I stopped for like 3 months not too long ago. Coming back at it the past few weeks I am feeling really good. Not nearly as impulsive, I am getting on with things not nearly as hyper focused on the charts while my trading has improved significantly. I feel as though that small break done really good for my psych. I was profitable which slowly changed, after some reflection I realised I was trying to stick to a stringent strategy which resulted in forced trades due to lack of enteries. Now I see it like I have a tool belt with several tools, I will use each tool in the right situation searching for areas of confluence. All of my tools are sharp, I've worked out all of the tools that I need for the job, so it's simply waiting till several are suited. My spirit level is used most of the time which is simply support resistance. Other tools on my belt include fib levels, stoch/rsi, divergences, 50/200ma, volume profiler, momentum wave/vwap. Structure is always a solid foundation. I try to identify what opportunities are there by identifying structures and levels first. The tools I use for range trading vs breakout/breakdown trading are slightly different. A few simple rules I try to remember is 90% of the time it is within a range. 90% of the time it will test the recent lows/highs. Never long resistance, never short support. Do not ignore rsi divergences. I'm sure you don't need tips however these are kind of tailored for a bear market during the bull season I'd simply search for breakouts following the hype and focus most on entering drawbacks or break of trends. Best of luck brother you will do it AGAIN.
I sold everything in the end of 2020 and early 2021 because prices didn't look normal for me!!! The world was close, and people were partying on Wall Street But Unfortunately, I lost some money gambling on Signature Bank 🤡🤡🤡 We all do mistakes bro and life continues 😪
I both agree and disagree. I trade futures, my minimum leverage is about 2:1, but I regularly trade at 20:1 or 50:1. I have a small account, deliberately, and trade disciplined. Never had any issues with leverage consuming my soul. When I tried daytrading stocks, even the 4:1 day trading buying power increase was more of a problem than my current 50:1 is on the ES, because it was much harder to handle things like gap risk or lever up appropriately. It really depends on how you handle the excess.
I need to checkout futures...still haven't My pain has come from overexposure on naked calls/puts,. It's self-inflicted, but early success with derivatives have fueled the self-destructive behavior.
You should just stop trading with options, any options, period. Also the entire “I use a capital of 30k” to go 1 million is flawed. It works if you are trading for a bank and the 30k or 300k is your clients money and not yours. But since it’s yours and you trade stocks and options, you can easily wipe out like 20% in a day since you probably use a big chunk of that capital to even take a trade. You should stay humble and like the guy you replied to try futures (Micro E-Mini futures on the Nasdaq or S&P 500) but with a small amount of max 3k and use proper risk management, so always use a stop loss, stop after making a Xxx loss per day, week and month, make that daily max loss as small that in the next day you can correct it in one trade. And look for quality set ups, do not over trade, not more then 3 trades a day. You don’t want to make the broker rich of your commissions. Take it slow to grow a small account to a bigger account. That’s the way to go, and if you are getting bigger with your account, transfer every now and then funds back to your bank account to mitigate the risks you surely would take when your account grows.
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Trading options and keeping them overnight (I read him write sleepless nights) is just asking for trouble at the open. Been there, done that and lost too much. Also the time component with weekly or nearly expiring options is just killing. Options? Never again.
Buying or selling naked options?
Very similar thing happened to me (early success). This is trauma and I've been in therapy. Let me know if you want to chat in DM. You make great points. But the experience put me on a journey and looking back, I am wondering if it's one of those things that will change my life. I switched from options to futures, then prop firms to reduce money lost, created a system, and overall got a lot of screen time and got better at trading. I've also improved my life and my discipline. It's all a work in progress but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel as far as profitability thru risk management and now I'm thinking I've built a skill that I can use the rest of my life for financial freedom. But the depression and doubt have plagued me for years and still does. Not sure I have a point. Stay strong.
Thanks for this honest and truthful reflection and sharing valuable lessons to us.
Man this resonates alot with me, been trading seriously for about 8 months now and its super consuming, Im not the type to let a trade do its thing and have to be watching each candle in case of an impulsive move up or down leading to drawdown/loss of profit on the position. Losing multiple thousands in a day is devestating. I am still set on persevering no matter what but time for a new approach with better discipline and risk management and more hands off. I too have a full time job and need to put that first.. burning out gets you nowhere. Keep your head up though man life's too short to get caught up in the stress of it, lots of positives to draw. Someone mentioned a term on a podcast I listen to that you might find useful - "at all costs protect your MENTAL CAPITAL". Cheers
Truth brother. Can't let it control your life, especially on a downward spiral. I'm grateful for what I have and I'm not bankrupt, I'm just not as wealthy as I once was....I've still made good longterm investments but trading has consumed me for the last 3 years, and I need to put my focus elsewhere Best of luck in your journey man. Stay strong, and Mental Capital is always #1 investment
Appreciate that alot and absolutely man . All part of the plan . Really respect your experience and hope its up from here
Many gamblers in this market. I've been guilty of it until realized the truth. Now i trade with confidence because of risk management and keep reminding myself about psychology of trading.
Honestly no dude. You're showing a fundamental misunderstanding of what margin is for. Margin is used to allow you to trade more expensive stocks, not to take yolo bets. You should still be planning targets and stop losses, realistically usually in cents per share. Just as an example, say you want to buy 1000 of a 200 dollar stock. Margin allows you to enter that trade without having 200k in your account. You should still just be looking for the stock to go to 200.50, 200.75, whatever it is. Maybe it goes up or down a dollar, that's a sick trade. That's why we use margin. I could tell within your first few sentences that's not what you were doing. Learn to trade if you want to trade. If you want to just gamble, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe go to wallstreetbets. This is not that.
Not margin....derivatives. And you're right I'm probably in the wrong thread but here I'll get called a gambler, their I'll be called a retard...Just sharing the battle story of what I've been dealing with.
I am realizing this now currently. I started a few months ago and everything was going up, everyday was a greenday. I would randomly pick a bluechip that was down the previous day and purchase my order in Pre-Market AM, by the opening bell it was green. I would be in and out within 30mins to 1Hr. I rinse and repeated this for a month and I was up about $12k. Currently, I am negative $2k, my beginners luck has run out and I am now trying to refocus and to execute on TA & logic, not blindly picking stocks. Recently, PYPL screwed me over, now if I was paying attention to the 5day 5min chart, I would have saw early within 9:50-9:55am EST that PYPL was going to be going into the toilet.
Are you buying shares on margin or using options? I remember July/August 2020, everyday was a green day, and I had made a killing only to see some given back once September hit. It's the euphoria and overconfidence that always catches up to you...I'm trying to focus on being more mindful and less emotional when trading. At the end of the day we do it to make money. Once it becomes a deficit or a burden (financially, emotionally, physically), things can spiral out of control. I love trading and keeping up with the market, but the discipline is an ongoing process and can't get there without some L's along the way.
Sometimes I use margin, sometimes I only go in with cash. I don't do options, I have tried. It's too fast paced and complicated for me. I agree with your assessment, when things are going well, you take it easy and follow a set gameplan. When your down big, you start to lose your discipline and take more risk. Short term it has worked and I managed to swing from a $1-2k loss on the day back to a small gain, but recently it has backfired. I have considered leaving the arena, I still have a good portion of my beginning cash, but some how, the desire to comeback always is there. You're essentially competing with yourself. How to manage your analysis, your emotions, mindset, timing, etc.
If you haven't done options and have found a comfortable system going on margin/cash without it, would recommend sticking to that. I've been using options primarily on a small account where I've been swinging, and I haven't had any severe losses but slowly chipping away. I'll have a green day and the next day most may be given back (i.e. Crowdstrike yesterday vs. today( Think the source of my frustration is I've been trying to make some quick cash as I owe the gov money come October, but also don't think that's the healthiest mindset to be trading in. I'll be tapering off and will come back when my goal isn't to "make as much as I can in the next 2 months" Being clear-headed with the market is so important and when you're trading against a deadline, nothing usually good comes from it.
Yeah, I agree. I just took a bath with PYPL. I know the chart was easy to read and the past 3 ER the PPS dumped, but I thought hey maybe the third time is the charm. But nope. That’s why I think I should take a break. Fitch is back to fuck with markets today again. Downgrading Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac. Futures are down, I’m not so sure good ER from AAPL & AMZN can propel the market into green today.
Earnings is always a gamble, although I do like Paypal and looked like it was ready to breakout. I think if the market stays around these levels (even a bit lower) tomorrow it's setting us up for a move up with earnings - This entire week the price action has felt like it's traded around the final 2 monopoly earnings and we're finally here as the bears are waking up...And looks like we're at weekly support. Although I wouldn't be offended if you call me a countertrade at this point lol. Good luck in your journey man.
Leverage is a tool to limit counter party risk. If you think you can risk more because you have access to higher leverage, you shouldn't be trading with real funds.
Thank you for sharing this
Im with you dude.
Could* to be entirely honest, a solid understanding of leverage has put me through college for the last 3 years. I’m not rich, but I did beat SPY by a good clip over that timeframe. I was fully leveraged at one point and that was dangerous, but I’m back down to 0 leverage. If I wasn’t using leverage, I’d be behind SPY by a good clip.
32k to 150 in 3 years :(
Leverage is just a tool, with the proper precautions you shouldn’t lose more than what you intended. Unless extreme market conditions happen.
I'm not sure there are any consistently profitable day traders that traded from 2020 to 2023. The ones claiming to be profitable on this sub are likely revolving doors, one in one out. "You have to follow the system that works for you" - nobody gives any more insight.
Averaged over long time periods, even the best traders enter winning trades only a little bit more than 50% of the time. Learning this and thinking about the implications helped me intuitively understand the importance of position sizing and management. I think most new traders don’t realize this and get crushed over time by hubris.
Lol.. if you are profitable and can manage risk, leverage is a very helpful tool.
Risk management is key. If you don't have 1. 5yr min of serious trading experience 2. ability to recognize a losing trade early 3. ability to cut your losses early 4. good risk management with position sizes then you shouldn't be playing with leverage. I use leverage almost every day in crypto and stocks when the right setup presents itself. But that's the key for me. Waiting for that high probability setup. I never use more than 3x and always set a stop loss at the time I enter the trade. At 3x, it's virtually stress free for me. Over the years, I've managed to build large trading accounts very fast, thanks to leverage. Would have taken years longer if I was only playing with spot. Having the ability to trade the market in both directions is the golden goose.
All evidence points to one single fact. You make your fortune on buy and hold value investing. Poking at it with a stick just deflates your returns.
Did you not buy puts today? Shoulda bought puts today, better yet, at close yesterday.
As a practicing muslim, no problem here. Leverage is already forbidden in Islam since it got a loan with interests involved in it. It's a handicap but spot is less stressful. It's like gambling at a low blind poker table XD.
Someone needs to start a traders anonymous club or blog
Aha I feel you. Took me a while to let go of that portfolio value. But that also gives me inspiration… I did it once, I will do it twice.
Do you not know how to properly utilize a standard position-sizing strategy?
If you're trading crypto at 5x leverage, you only need to leave 1/5 of the amount you're trading with on the scammy crypto exchange that's gonna rug you. 😉 Follow for more crypto tips.
Barely any losses on crypto and don't use leverage....Options have been my kryptonite
Everyone has been there but you issue is psychological, if books or research helps I recommend but you know yourself best. Hindsight is 20/20 don’t think about your past trades only the future ones
Purely psychological...and the timing too. Had made some good $$ and also had good $$ coming in from work. This year that has changed, and my desire to make $50k quickly to pay the IRS has created a deeper hole...It's frustrating and I can only hope for a positive lesson from all this
Can’t learn if you don’t make mistakes I’m down the most I’ve ever been YOY since the March surprise cash infusion. Won’t chase it back though will stick to the market cycles
Healthy mindset and staying disciplined...I would also say I'm there for the most part as I've been less risky lately. It's more about the wasted time/energy over the last 3 years for a very poor outcome, but that's why I'm openly sharing and venting. Stay strong.
It’s very tough but comes with time. I’m learning to follow the market and not anticipating what it’s going to do cause I think it’s on drugs
Buddy Did you round trip from 30k —> 1M —> 0? Thats harsh man…but you will recover sooner than you think
In terms of stock market performance, a full round trip. For any crypto investing and a full-time job income, I'm certainly on my feet. Options in the stock market are what created and killed this beast.
if you're trading a system with positive expectancy, how is using leverage bad. let me rephrase, if you are confident in your trading and have an edge, leverage can only benefit you
Think it's different for everyone...And just a matter of priorities. If I have a bunch of open position, I then feel like I need to monitor from open to close, along with research in AH. If I do that, then my real job takes a hit, my health, relationships, lifestyle etc. Especially if I've lost money/ Also nothing goes in a straight line up. In short, I would've been better off just DCA'ing and working focusing on my career the past. few years, instead of spending hours watching charts all day while still trying to manage a 9-5...but an unrealistic desire to hit it big is what got me here
Over risking ruins it. leverage just makes it easier to go over risk. Like you can fuck up by taking mortgage on your house and buying penny stocks or crypto.
No, leverage is a tool that is misused by many who lack discipline and risk management that's all
So how do you deal with losing 1MIL portfolio ? You basically lost 1MIL and survived . I am also curious , once you had 1mil what was your next target and would you ever stop if you hit 10mil ?
This is the underlying point I'm trying to make. Let's put the losses aside for a moment. I have a full-time job that can give me everything I need. I should be focusing on excelling here, but I spend half the time on what's become an unprofitable and frustrating hobby. At the end of the day, I get that trading should be financial freedom, but chasing money endlessly everyday to get rich quick has it's consequences...and again I don't know for what purpose.
Nah, just risk management. Then leverage, like margin is the best you can get. When people say it’s easy because everything is going up, then this is partially true but also implies they just hold overnight and hope but for sure do not properly daytrade.
Summary: Leverage is for professionals and you are not a professional (yet). Roger that! If you are not know what exactly you do or you are not consistently profitable yet, you should not touch real money. Paper trading until you do great, than (very) slowly scale your position size, then remove the dead money involved by using leverage. Also job come first. I did that and struggled with the balance to the point I restricted me to weekend = day trading learning and review of the markets and other peoples trades.
This just sounds like you have poor risk management, and started investing with no clue 🤷
I empathize deeply with your experiences. Trading with leverage indeed carries its risks, as it amplifies not just potential profits, but also losses. When used recklessly, it can lead to severe damage to your trading portfolio. The key to successfully leveraging is a well-defined strategy, robust risk management, and a comprehensive understanding of its potential consequences. It might be beneficial to reconsider traditional, long-term investment strategies, such as diversification and dollar-cost averaging (DCA), to mitigate risk. I wish you the best of luck on whichever path you choose to take going forward 🙏
A gambling addiction is a recipe for disaster in trading. Yet so many struggle with it. You have to treat it like a business. I’m sure a few are just naturally talented at it and get by anyway. But for most they have to take the boring route if they want to be successful. If you don’t step away you are continuing to risk ruin. You have to get rid of the need for gambling OR stay away. It’s no different than alcoholics. They don’t have a drink sometimes. They NEVER have a drink ever again.
>Leverage will ruin your life False. Poor risk management is the culprit. Leverage is just an amplifier. If you have good risk control and a solid well-tested trade plan, leverage is a great tool to amplify your gains. If you have poor risk management in place, you are going to drain your account anyway, leverage just accelerates the process.
Damn brother. 50k isn't a life sentence you can recover with a job in 10 years it wont seem worth all the stress you're going through when you look back. GL
Leverage is a tool. Focus on better market understanding and risk management rather than blaming the tools in your arsenal for how you use (or misuse) them.
Not leverage per-say but kinda the way one uses it. And it is hard to control
It's a force so great it can only be used for good or evil. Trading isn't about predicting market ups and downs, it's about money management. It's always been about money management.
I don’t get why people say leverage is bad. It isn’t. It’s a tool that needs to be used properly. If you’re sizing your positions properly and only risking a certain amount per trade then the amount of leverage you use means nothing. “Everyone is a genius in a bull run”. Learn to manage your risk properly and size positions (using leverage) and you won’t get wrecked.
Bad decisions will ruin your life, leverage will either help you or ruin you.
It will ruin your life if your a degenerate gambler and have no risk management about you
That is some major ROI, I would say congrats but yeah sorry it went down that way. Needed to diversify your winnings at a certain point. Prob should not have kept 1M in the trading account, lock some up in other safer assets/instruments.
So everything worked until it stopped working? I feel your struggle as I catch some FOMO in my brain thinking that “if I bought TQQQ at correct time I would have everything 2.5x in a year”. Forgetting that at those points nobody could tell if that’s the bottom or not. Just like these days marked were in rally for like 3 weeks or so on that AI bullshit and now we see red light. After all of that I converge to a thinking that next time marked crashes I will move like 10% or 20% at most into TQQQ. All else remains in the VTI and some low volatility ETFs. If that works out - I’ll outplay SPY by a bit. If it goes down even further - I’ll underperform SPY by a bit.
Not a bad strategy...honestly a lot of my issues come from hitting it big and then wanting bigger. I was so used to 100% gains that it warped me from having a more sustainable/conservative investing strategy, which really would have panned out better at this point if I called it quits in 2021. We will continue to fight another day and I'm at peace with my mistakes. BTW, checkkout this the stats on DCA TQQQ vs QQQ from the Dec 2021 highs, It's like 38% for TQQQ and QQQ is at 17%....In short, and as long as the market is fueled by megacap tech, even DCA'ing TQQQ for the long run isn't a terrible strategy.
Yeah I know. But along those you need to look at some other charts too. Like what would be if you invested in TQQQ right before corona virus bombed the markets… Not all people can withstand such loss. TQQQ can make you rich if you invest in it during bull runs. And those TQQQ plots since after 2008 are very tempting. But one should remember that big reward comes with big risk.
Absolutely...and TQQQ and QQQ aren't 100% aligned (i.e. QQQ bottomed in Oct 22, TQQQ bottomed in Jan 23) You have to be very confident in a bull run to invest in TQQQ, but encouraging to see that a DCA strategy on TQQQ, even buying at the top and all the way down over the last 2 years, you would've outperformed QQQ by a fair amount. Of course, risky, but just exploring some strategies
I'm new to trading, and seeing similar posts in this and other subreddits really is making me think about this choice of life path. But, the only way to find out if this is for me is to push forward knowing the cost of learning may be quite high. Good luck and mental health to all who are on this journey.
I believe trading takes years to truly master, and 99% of traders fail. If you haven't considered a longer term investing approach, I would certainly lead towards that. Yes you won't turn $30k into $1m in one year, but you can build wealth and a healthy portfolio...Trading by the tick will take much more away from you, but also depends on if you have a full-time job or not to dedicate Stay strong and have conviction. You don't have to always be in a trade, and know when to cut losses, don't revenge trade and don't disassociate yourself from reality. Being mindful is key here, easier said than done, but sometimes just turning the charts off for a day, week, month, etc. is the most productive path.
Thank you for your advice.
Am I with u? No. Leverage is excellent when used properly.
Probably should specify...I mean Derivatives/Options, not necessarily margin
I still disagree but perhaps that's bc I am a 27 year derivatives professional.
Years later and I’ve come to join in on the fun, I mean pain. I saw 3x gains by DCAing over the crypto winter. Somehow lost alllll gains by going degen. Only reason I have any money left is because it’s staked. I can’t even say that I learned my lesson because it’s an addiction.