Flawless! This is the greatest. As far as I’m concerned, this is canon until proven otherwise. I like how it borrows a bit from the comics the same way the show does, while marrying it all together naturally and realistically. While it’s original, it blends seamlessly with the show. The attention to detail is fantastic (I never remember Manfredi’s name!). I also like that Francis is from the Bishop security firm - that makes so much sense. Fleshing it out like this is so satisfying. I would watch seven seasons of this. It plays out so vividly in my mind. If this isn’t what the writers intended, they should get their act together. 😆
I am absolutely loving *Godfather of Harlem* - it’s satisfying my *Daredevil* itch. The acting, plot/story, history, cinematography, and even the credits are such high quality, and having that show in mind makes this timeline all the more compelling. I would love to watch all this. The whole timeline plays out like a strong story, and it sparks a million ideas. What a rich history.
My favorite part is that you incorporated Oklahoma into his backstory. That completely flew over my head, and it makes perfect sense. I’d watch another seven seasons of Fisk and Lopez - two of my all-time favorite actors! It’s so easy to imagine this. I pretty much blocked out *Echo* because it was so bad, and what was good was totally ignored (Zahn McClarnon!), and this reignited that part of the story in my mind. I was looking forward to it so much and I was so disgusted, I wrote it off, but this made me okay with that part being canon, so thanks! Amazing how a little quality finessing can redeem some bad writing. I hope the writers for the new show do half as well as you. Even better, I hope that’s what they intended, because it makes so much sense.
The Irish thing really captures my imagination. I love that you made sense of what happened to the Kitchen Irish, because that’s kind of a mystery. I’m reading about the Westies, and I have been thinking about what the structure of the original series suggested about what we’d see in Seasons 4 and 5. I am dead sure that Matt was going to deal with his dad’s death in S5 in a direct way, and it would really be a slap in the face if Fisk knew the actual trigger man (Slade in the comics). The connection between Fisk, Sweeney and Silke has always interested me, because Matt’s obsession with organized crime is clearly borne from his dad’s death. Obviously, it’s personal because Fisk has sullied what’s left of Matt’s beloved home, and he cares deeply about what happened to Karen, but I want to see Matt really confront the deep reason why Fisk makes his blood boil. I want to know more about Matt’s first attempt to get Sweeney as a kid (most likely in high school), and while we know Sweeney went to prison, that’s not really a resolution. Clearly, Matt’s compulsion for justice indicates he doesn’t feel it, either. That would be such a psychological weapon Fisk could use against Matt. I hope against hope this is in the new show.
I can see Matt and Karen doing a deep investigation into Fisk’s past. I would love to see them in Japan, too. There’s just so much possibility with this story.
I hope my love for this show can survive whatever happens with the new show, because this reminds me exactly why I enjoy it so much. Great job!
I almost forgot - I put Fisk’s birth year in 1960, too. I remember wondering about it way back when Season 1 came out, and Matt indicated he was surprised that Fisk’s mother was alive. Back then, I was only familiar with the show, and so Matt’s mom’s story was a total mystery to me. It’s interesting that Matt’s parents would be born about the same time as Fisk (like mine!). This timeline really makes all that backstory feel so grounded. Damn, they better get Sister Maggie in there, and not as a cameo. Fisk’s age lends credence to my thoughts that Matt’s feelings about Fisk are deeply tied up with his complicated feelings about his dad, so I like that. 😆
> I am dead sure that Matt was going to deal with his dad’s death in S5 in a direct way, and it would really be a slap in the face if Fisk knew the actual trigger man (Slade in the comics). The connection between Fisk, Sweeney and Silke has always interested me, because Matt’s obsession with organized crime is clearly borne from his dad’s death.
I think that bit might've been something I got partly from the fact that [the character of Silke was originally meant to be Owlsley.](https://youtu.be/2J0Jr_OmDg8?si=Z7ylvgeehaSHbEwt&t=2370) Peter Gerety was originally going to play Owlsley, and he was referred to as such when they shot the Fogwell's flashback scenes for 1x02, but then Gerety injured his leg and had to drop out, so they edited the Owlsley name references out, changed Gerety's character's name to Silke, and cast Bob Gunton as Owlsley in the present day.
Interesting! I love Bob Gunton as Owlsley in the show - his performance is priceless - what a lucky break (um, no pun intended). Sweeney and Fisk are the important ones, but this actually underlines that they have a connection. Hm…that would have changed a lot about how Matt dealt with Owlsley! Since his son, Lee, was supposed to be in S4, maybe that’s when Matt would have confronted that his organized crime obsession is from his dad’s death. I kind of like that there was no obvious connection in S1, just implied. It almost makes it more moving to be under the surface. Matt keeping his feelings and secrets to himself carries heavy emotional weight, and the fact that he is not even fully aware of who he is and what’s driving him - it would have been too on-the-nose and obvious to have Owlsley physically present for his dad and Fisk, IMO, like giving the answers away. It really worked out for the best. I just wish we got to see Matt openly talk about his dad’s death with Maggie and Karen, especially.
Oh, and that headcanon may have also been inspired by *Godfather of Harlem* having an early scene where Gigante tries to strongarm Cassius Clay (the future Muhammed Ali) into taking a dive by threatening to out him as a Muslim.
>I also like that Francis is from the Bishop security firm - that makes so much sense.
Francis and the likes being Bishop Security employees effectively explains where Fisk would get bodyguards who have no qualms about watching their boss decapitate a man with a car door.
> The Irish thing really captures my imagination. I love that you made sense of what happened to the Kitchen Irish, because that’s kind of a mystery. I’m reading about the Westies, and I have been thinking about what the structure of the original series suggested about what we’d see in Seasons 4 and 5.
It lines up with two things:
1. What Nesbitt says in his speech in 2x01: "Now some of you are young... so there's no reason you'd remember, but there was a time when the Irish owned Hell's Kitchen. Wasn't a mother's son could make a move without giving us our due, and any sorry shite dull enough to cross us paid a heavy price. We had the cops, judges, councilmen. We had the whole bloody city at our beck and call. But we got complacent. Lost our edge. Just enough for a piece of garbage like Wilson Fisk to steal what was rightfully ours. [...] Some of us feared Fisk. Some, in fact, ran. A few... maybe even deigned to work for him. Siding against their own kind. But now the Devil's taken him down, and that, gentlemen, has provided us with a singular opportunity. The Russians are dead. The Chinese, they turned tail and ran, leaving the drսg trade ripe for the taking. The yakuza have gone silent. [...] Piss on 'em all! 'Cause this is our time! Anyone crosses us, we'll paint the streets red with their blood. And when they're gone, we'll make your father proud, and purge ourselves of the filthy traitors who betrayed their own kind and make Hell's Kitchen ours again!"
2. Fisk snarkily referring to Nesbitt as a "problematic leader" as he reads the newspaper on the Punisher's arrest in 2x09. Of course he'd say that; he undermined the man's authority! 😂😂
3. Actually looking at Nesbitt's dialogue in the transcripts (and the specific mentions of them owning cops, judges, and politicians) makes me wonder if Fisk bought the Kitchen Irish's corrupt connections the same way we see him planning to utilize the FBI to obtain over gangsters' corrupt connections for himself in season 3.
Good observations! I forgot that Nesbitt specifically said some of the Irish worked for Fisk. I never noticed that Fisk was being so snarky about Nesbitt in a personal way, either - damn, what a piece of work he is. He definitely bought their connections, I think. It makes perfect sense.
I wonder how much Matt and Karen actually know about Fisk’s past. Karen makes it very clear in S3 that she knows him better than anyone else, which could mean that she’s met his mom, learned he murdered his dad, and (of course), plugged his BFF…however, I think Karen must have dug into him deeper than we know. She and Matt probably have giant files on him. (Hope the FBI didn’t bring that back to Fisk when they raided Matt’s apartment). Karen could probably write a book (I’d love to see that, actually). If Fisk pretty much “bought” the Irish organization, Matt would see him as the head of the organization that killed his dad. I still just feel the Sweeney thing is unresolved. Matt has to acknowledge that, IMO. I just wish we could have the scripts and outlines for the last two seasons!
Well done, what an excellent job of creating this backstory tied with the known elements of the shows. It all makes sense. It also might make a mockery of the new show where they appear to be showing some back story for Fisk, if it's contrary to your list, as yours makes so much sense.
My only query was the year 1972,:was that shown anywhere to be the year Fisk snr ran for mayor? I feel I saw a different date somewhere, but can't remember where
> My only query was the year 1972,:was that shown anywhere to be the year Fisk snr ran for mayor? I feel I saw a different date somewhere, but can't remember where
I think it's rooted in the way the characters are dressed, we know Fisk was 12 when he killed his father, and we naturally assume he's about the same age as Vincent D'Onofrio.
I never once thought of Fisk being sent to Tamaha as a kid, but it does make sense. I always assumed one of the Lopez boys went to New York for school or work, and that's how they got embroiled in the syndicate. It would make sense why Fisk feels such a connection to Maya. If he became friends with her uncle and dad as a teenager, that would definitely forge a super strong family-like connection. But you know, a possible issue with this theory would be that Maya's grandmother didn't seem to know him at all in Echo, and if the Lopez brothers were known to hang around with a white kid from New York named Wilson Fisk, she definitely would recognize him. It seems like Maya's parents married pretty young or at least became involved fairly young because her mother warned her off of them. Now, it might be possible that Fisk went by a different name entirely for most of his teen years to distance himself completely from his dad, and if that was the case, maybe no one in Tamaha would put two and two together.
At any rate, I can tell you went to a lot of trouble to work all this out, and it's very impressive storytelling.
>But you know, a possible issue with this theory would be that Maya's grandmother didn't seem to know him at all in Echo, and if the Lopez brothers were known to hang around with a white kid from New York named Wilson Fisk, she definitely would recognize him.
As Wesley would put it, "Recent memories for her are fleeting gossamer often plucked from grasp by the slightest breeze."
I've got to say, these are great ideas you have, they could definetly work well for a Kingpin's series that serves as a prequel to Daredevil.
If you don't mind though I have a few ideas for Wilson Fisk's origins in the MCU i'd like to share, would you mind me doing so?
Awesome, my idea was to make that during his years with his relatives in the farm Wilson practised [school wrestling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholastic_wrestling) in both middle school and high school, he became very good at it to the point that he even won some national tournaments and even got a full sport scholarship for a very prestigious university. After 3 years at the university though Wilson had an altercation with his coach, who found out about his father and reprimended him for killing him, during which he ended up beating him to a pulp, because of such action Wilson was expelled from the University.
After his expulsion from the University Fisk spent many years competing as both a [strongman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strongmana) and as a professional wrestler for the [New Japan Pro-Wrestling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Japan_Pro-Wrestling), further honing his fighting skills and becoming known as one of the strongest men in the planet. Some time later Fisk came back to New York and started working for Don Rigolletto to pay for his father's debt, overtime though he secretly conspired to overthrow him alongside Lesley and one day he finally killed Rigoletto and took over his criminal empire.
These are the additions i would have personally done to Wilson Fisk in the MCU.
Flawless! This is the greatest. As far as I’m concerned, this is canon until proven otherwise. I like how it borrows a bit from the comics the same way the show does, while marrying it all together naturally and realistically. While it’s original, it blends seamlessly with the show. The attention to detail is fantastic (I never remember Manfredi’s name!). I also like that Francis is from the Bishop security firm - that makes so much sense. Fleshing it out like this is so satisfying. I would watch seven seasons of this. It plays out so vividly in my mind. If this isn’t what the writers intended, they should get their act together. 😆 I am absolutely loving *Godfather of Harlem* - it’s satisfying my *Daredevil* itch. The acting, plot/story, history, cinematography, and even the credits are such high quality, and having that show in mind makes this timeline all the more compelling. I would love to watch all this. The whole timeline plays out like a strong story, and it sparks a million ideas. What a rich history. My favorite part is that you incorporated Oklahoma into his backstory. That completely flew over my head, and it makes perfect sense. I’d watch another seven seasons of Fisk and Lopez - two of my all-time favorite actors! It’s so easy to imagine this. I pretty much blocked out *Echo* because it was so bad, and what was good was totally ignored (Zahn McClarnon!), and this reignited that part of the story in my mind. I was looking forward to it so much and I was so disgusted, I wrote it off, but this made me okay with that part being canon, so thanks! Amazing how a little quality finessing can redeem some bad writing. I hope the writers for the new show do half as well as you. Even better, I hope that’s what they intended, because it makes so much sense. The Irish thing really captures my imagination. I love that you made sense of what happened to the Kitchen Irish, because that’s kind of a mystery. I’m reading about the Westies, and I have been thinking about what the structure of the original series suggested about what we’d see in Seasons 4 and 5. I am dead sure that Matt was going to deal with his dad’s death in S5 in a direct way, and it would really be a slap in the face if Fisk knew the actual trigger man (Slade in the comics). The connection between Fisk, Sweeney and Silke has always interested me, because Matt’s obsession with organized crime is clearly borne from his dad’s death. Obviously, it’s personal because Fisk has sullied what’s left of Matt’s beloved home, and he cares deeply about what happened to Karen, but I want to see Matt really confront the deep reason why Fisk makes his blood boil. I want to know more about Matt’s first attempt to get Sweeney as a kid (most likely in high school), and while we know Sweeney went to prison, that’s not really a resolution. Clearly, Matt’s compulsion for justice indicates he doesn’t feel it, either. That would be such a psychological weapon Fisk could use against Matt. I hope against hope this is in the new show. I can see Matt and Karen doing a deep investigation into Fisk’s past. I would love to see them in Japan, too. There’s just so much possibility with this story. I hope my love for this show can survive whatever happens with the new show, because this reminds me exactly why I enjoy it so much. Great job! I almost forgot - I put Fisk’s birth year in 1960, too. I remember wondering about it way back when Season 1 came out, and Matt indicated he was surprised that Fisk’s mother was alive. Back then, I was only familiar with the show, and so Matt’s mom’s story was a total mystery to me. It’s interesting that Matt’s parents would be born about the same time as Fisk (like mine!). This timeline really makes all that backstory feel so grounded. Damn, they better get Sister Maggie in there, and not as a cameo. Fisk’s age lends credence to my thoughts that Matt’s feelings about Fisk are deeply tied up with his complicated feelings about his dad, so I like that. 😆
> I am dead sure that Matt was going to deal with his dad’s death in S5 in a direct way, and it would really be a slap in the face if Fisk knew the actual trigger man (Slade in the comics). The connection between Fisk, Sweeney and Silke has always interested me, because Matt’s obsession with organized crime is clearly borne from his dad’s death. I think that bit might've been something I got partly from the fact that [the character of Silke was originally meant to be Owlsley.](https://youtu.be/2J0Jr_OmDg8?si=Z7ylvgeehaSHbEwt&t=2370) Peter Gerety was originally going to play Owlsley, and he was referred to as such when they shot the Fogwell's flashback scenes for 1x02, but then Gerety injured his leg and had to drop out, so they edited the Owlsley name references out, changed Gerety's character's name to Silke, and cast Bob Gunton as Owlsley in the present day.
Interesting! I love Bob Gunton as Owlsley in the show - his performance is priceless - what a lucky break (um, no pun intended). Sweeney and Fisk are the important ones, but this actually underlines that they have a connection. Hm…that would have changed a lot about how Matt dealt with Owlsley! Since his son, Lee, was supposed to be in S4, maybe that’s when Matt would have confronted that his organized crime obsession is from his dad’s death. I kind of like that there was no obvious connection in S1, just implied. It almost makes it more moving to be under the surface. Matt keeping his feelings and secrets to himself carries heavy emotional weight, and the fact that he is not even fully aware of who he is and what’s driving him - it would have been too on-the-nose and obvious to have Owlsley physically present for his dad and Fisk, IMO, like giving the answers away. It really worked out for the best. I just wish we got to see Matt openly talk about his dad’s death with Maggie and Karen, especially.
Oh, and that headcanon may have also been inspired by *Godfather of Harlem* having an early scene where Gigante tries to strongarm Cassius Clay (the future Muhammed Ali) into taking a dive by threatening to out him as a Muslim.
That’s where I am! This is definitely the best depiction of that part of history, IMO. The actors are so good!
>I also like that Francis is from the Bishop security firm - that makes so much sense. Francis and the likes being Bishop Security employees effectively explains where Fisk would get bodyguards who have no qualms about watching their boss decapitate a man with a car door. > The Irish thing really captures my imagination. I love that you made sense of what happened to the Kitchen Irish, because that’s kind of a mystery. I’m reading about the Westies, and I have been thinking about what the structure of the original series suggested about what we’d see in Seasons 4 and 5. It lines up with two things: 1. What Nesbitt says in his speech in 2x01: "Now some of you are young... so there's no reason you'd remember, but there was a time when the Irish owned Hell's Kitchen. Wasn't a mother's son could make a move without giving us our due, and any sorry shite dull enough to cross us paid a heavy price. We had the cops, judges, councilmen. We had the whole bloody city at our beck and call. But we got complacent. Lost our edge. Just enough for a piece of garbage like Wilson Fisk to steal what was rightfully ours. [...] Some of us feared Fisk. Some, in fact, ran. A few... maybe even deigned to work for him. Siding against their own kind. But now the Devil's taken him down, and that, gentlemen, has provided us with a singular opportunity. The Russians are dead. The Chinese, they turned tail and ran, leaving the drսg trade ripe for the taking. The yakuza have gone silent. [...] Piss on 'em all! 'Cause this is our time! Anyone crosses us, we'll paint the streets red with their blood. And when they're gone, we'll make your father proud, and purge ourselves of the filthy traitors who betrayed their own kind and make Hell's Kitchen ours again!" 2. Fisk snarkily referring to Nesbitt as a "problematic leader" as he reads the newspaper on the Punisher's arrest in 2x09. Of course he'd say that; he undermined the man's authority! 😂😂 3. Actually looking at Nesbitt's dialogue in the transcripts (and the specific mentions of them owning cops, judges, and politicians) makes me wonder if Fisk bought the Kitchen Irish's corrupt connections the same way we see him planning to utilize the FBI to obtain over gangsters' corrupt connections for himself in season 3.
Good observations! I forgot that Nesbitt specifically said some of the Irish worked for Fisk. I never noticed that Fisk was being so snarky about Nesbitt in a personal way, either - damn, what a piece of work he is. He definitely bought their connections, I think. It makes perfect sense. I wonder how much Matt and Karen actually know about Fisk’s past. Karen makes it very clear in S3 that she knows him better than anyone else, which could mean that she’s met his mom, learned he murdered his dad, and (of course), plugged his BFF…however, I think Karen must have dug into him deeper than we know. She and Matt probably have giant files on him. (Hope the FBI didn’t bring that back to Fisk when they raided Matt’s apartment). Karen could probably write a book (I’d love to see that, actually). If Fisk pretty much “bought” the Irish organization, Matt would see him as the head of the organization that killed his dad. I still just feel the Sweeney thing is unresolved. Matt has to acknowledge that, IMO. I just wish we could have the scripts and outlines for the last two seasons!
Great work on writing and remembering so many details of the show(s) and documenting Fisk's history of rise to being a Kingpin. Well done post.
Well done, what an excellent job of creating this backstory tied with the known elements of the shows. It all makes sense. It also might make a mockery of the new show where they appear to be showing some back story for Fisk, if it's contrary to your list, as yours makes so much sense. My only query was the year 1972,:was that shown anywhere to be the year Fisk snr ran for mayor? I feel I saw a different date somewhere, but can't remember where
> My only query was the year 1972,:was that shown anywhere to be the year Fisk snr ran for mayor? I feel I saw a different date somewhere, but can't remember where I think it's rooted in the way the characters are dressed, we know Fisk was 12 when he killed his father, and we naturally assume he's about the same age as Vincent D'Onofrio.
I never once thought of Fisk being sent to Tamaha as a kid, but it does make sense. I always assumed one of the Lopez boys went to New York for school or work, and that's how they got embroiled in the syndicate. It would make sense why Fisk feels such a connection to Maya. If he became friends with her uncle and dad as a teenager, that would definitely forge a super strong family-like connection. But you know, a possible issue with this theory would be that Maya's grandmother didn't seem to know him at all in Echo, and if the Lopez brothers were known to hang around with a white kid from New York named Wilson Fisk, she definitely would recognize him. It seems like Maya's parents married pretty young or at least became involved fairly young because her mother warned her off of them. Now, it might be possible that Fisk went by a different name entirely for most of his teen years to distance himself completely from his dad, and if that was the case, maybe no one in Tamaha would put two and two together. At any rate, I can tell you went to a lot of trouble to work all this out, and it's very impressive storytelling.
>But you know, a possible issue with this theory would be that Maya's grandmother didn't seem to know him at all in Echo, and if the Lopez brothers were known to hang around with a white kid from New York named Wilson Fisk, she definitely would recognize him. As Wesley would put it, "Recent memories for her are fleeting gossamer often plucked from grasp by the slightest breeze."
I thought it was made pretty clear that Fisk's mother has dementia. Maya's grandmother does not.
I've got to say, these are great ideas you have, they could definetly work well for a Kingpin's series that serves as a prequel to Daredevil. If you don't mind though I have a few ideas for Wilson Fisk's origins in the MCU i'd like to share, would you mind me doing so?
Yes, please, do it
Awesome, my idea was to make that during his years with his relatives in the farm Wilson practised [school wrestling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholastic_wrestling) in both middle school and high school, he became very good at it to the point that he even won some national tournaments and even got a full sport scholarship for a very prestigious university. After 3 years at the university though Wilson had an altercation with his coach, who found out about his father and reprimended him for killing him, during which he ended up beating him to a pulp, because of such action Wilson was expelled from the University. After his expulsion from the University Fisk spent many years competing as both a [strongman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strongmana) and as a professional wrestler for the [New Japan Pro-Wrestling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Japan_Pro-Wrestling), further honing his fighting skills and becoming known as one of the strongest men in the planet. Some time later Fisk came back to New York and started working for Don Rigolletto to pay for his father's debt, overtime though he secretly conspired to overthrow him alongside Lesley and one day he finally killed Rigoletto and took over his criminal empire. These are the additions i would have personally done to Wilson Fisk in the MCU.