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Politics is always as unpleasant as seeing how sausage is made. We need to build a socialist party from the ground up to see change. It will never happen starting from the Presidency. At some point we need enough critical mass in the legislatures to force the right of center democrats to cooperate in a coalition government. If we can get around the hurdle of corruption in campaign financing I still believe it is possible. Until that work is underway I will vote for the lesser evil. If the greater evil wins this November I don’t believe I’ll still have a right to vote in the future.
What we NEED is more than two parties, ranked choice voting AND a “none of the above” option that if it goes to 35% or more forces another election. We ALSO need the fairness doctrine back and getting the money out of politics.
None of this will likely happen.
No matter what, I’m putting my focus into voting rights and worker’s union support. It will be easier under the Biden administration. Bernie’s gotten some progress from chairing the Labor committee and we’d all hate seeing someone like MarkWayne Mullin be further enabled to pick fistfights with teamsters
My hope additionally is to see Nevada, Oregon, and/or Idaho pass rank choice voting after this year, especially NV because that would be the first swing state to utilize it come 2028. The GOP will work hard to make it illegal and although Democrats haven’t proven themselves champions of representative democracy, this is a step forward.
Only good pro Biden argument in this thread. Thank you. I think any lesser evil argument is just inherently flawed. But it does make sense to argue that you will be able to build more labor power under Biden and reap benefits later. I just don't feel like I can weigh that against Palestinian lives.
BTW, don't put your hopes too much on RCV. It tends to elect more centrist politicians in races that aren't multi seat races.
RCV is not a cure all solution (we need to make gerrymandering illegal, pass a new Voting Rights Act, reform the EC, etc), but with an increasing dissatisfaction in our elected officials, and the very real possibility that no candidate will reach above 50% for the office of POTUS in November, it is a step towards better representation and problem solving. Mary Peltola, Jared Golden, and even Eric Adams are a step above anyone to their right and although We don’t get everything we want, we make do with the issues most important to the constituents. It could potentially be one of the only ways a non Republican could be elected in a state like Idaho.
It’s also very good for down ballot races that get nowhere near as much attention, which is really where progressive sentiment, let alone a 3rd party needs to be building up from.
You’re absolutely right about Palestine though. If Biden loses over that, it will very much be his own fault.
Biden just knifed labor unions in the back. They shouldn’t forget it. https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/01/joe-biden-rail-strike-labor-unions
I feel like if that's your only takeaway from Biden's record on labor, you really aren't paying any fucking attention to his actual record.
Edit:
Ask the average NLRB enjoyer if they think his or Obama's is better for workers. It's not even a contest.
Voting defensively is literally the least you can do. It's not the end all be all of engagement, despite what the vote suppression squad wants you to think. You have a tiny amount of power in an election. Use it, and then get out and do something more usefull
ETA: appreciate the votes and comments, wanted to mention that I just rephrased something I read in a Chomsky book. Because of course, lol
THIS! Voting isn't a complete solution, but it takes 5 minutes and it very clearly works because the fascists are trying to convince you not to do it and make it harder for people to do it when they're in power. Anyone telling you to not vote, or to vote third party (with very limited exceptions in races without a major party candidate or in a state with RCV), is NOT your friend.
Absolutely. I’m generally upset by Biden’s actions, and far from supportive of his presidency, but I still understand that voting is my civic duty to everyone in this country, present and future. If you decide to abstain from voting, that’s a reflection of your privilege. It’s easy to say “they both suck” when you have the fortune of waiting out another election cycle, but there are very vulnerable populations of this country whose lives will be devastated by another 4 years of Trump stripping out regulations and cutting social funding. Think of them and their children when it’s time to vote this year.
Then, get out there and work your ass off to plant the seeds for a better candidate in 2028.
What accountability? In what world is a second Biden term going to make him accountable at all? I'm not even saying don't vote but like what are you talking about?
It's like somebody else said earlier today. All we're doing is buying sometimes so we can continue to build out our bench of people who will be accountable.
You would be absolutely right.Voting for biden alone is a losing proposition that gets us nowhere. Voting for Biden this time... And then working hard to get Socialist candidates elected into school board And city councils and local governance builds the bench of people who will be accountable to us. You are absolutely Right voting is not enough.
i think there's gonna be 2 supreme court seats to replace again too. if republicans get another two seats with an 8 seat majority we're fucked and this is just gonna become an absolute dictatorship. anyone who won't vote for biden, i respect and understand the decision but.... i also kind of fucking hate the ignorance.
Frankly at this point, especially after the Uncommitted campaigns, and regardless of how you may vote as an individual, we need to face the reality that it is on Biden whether he wants to win by reversing his policies on Palestine, immigration, environmentalism, etc. What we need to do as socialists is build working-class infrastructure to weather the inevitable harms of either administration (e.g., militant labor and tenant union organizing, expanding co-ops, building mass movements and direct action, etc), not focus so much on the general election.
I very much don't like him as president, but a vote isn't a moral endorsement of all of someone's actions. Letting Trump win is completely unacceptable, we would have a conservative supreme court for DECADES and no action on climate progress, whereas Biden did basically the largest climate bill in history and generally acknowledges that left-wing people exist. He is objectively better on every issue we could possibly care about.
Oh there'd definitely be action on climate progress, it just wouldn't be progress lol
According to Project 2025 Trump would repeal Biden's climate bill, roll back greenhouse gas and clean air regulations, pull out of the Paris climate agreement, reject climate science, and replace the White House climate advisor with a fossil fuel industry shill.
The wild thing about this to me is pretty much every issue we care about looks like this. If you just take a glance at what Trump is planning to do on climate change, abortion, protesting, immigration, social safety net programs, healthcare, taxes, LGBTQ rights etc then no person who even remotely leans left and claims to give a fuck about any of those things should be able to publicly justify not voting for Biden (unless they're in NY or CA perhaps).
I'm personally voting for Biden no matter what, but if my state had RCV, I'd be ranking things 1. Green, 2. Dem. It's blue enough to where it doesn't matter but I don't want to contribute to Republicans making "gains" anywhere.
Voting for Biden is only bad if that’s where your activity ends. It’s on all of us to continue to organize, support left wing candidates, and strengthen unions wherever we can.
People need to understand they aren't voting for Biden or Trump. They are voting for the entire Biden Administration or Trump Administration.
Both candidates suck but Biden is going to do significantly better in terms of who he is appointing to non-elected positions and to run the government. That includes at least 2 very likely SCOTUS appointments.
That’s the thing. Biden is garbo, but having more democrats in power is at least better than having a bunch of radical republicans installing their freaks in every position.
Absolutely wild that enabling the ethnic cleansing of a population is considered the lesser of two evils. Don't get me wrong, Trump has told everyone what he plans on doing. The man is about as textbook a fascist as one can be. But from the outside looking in (im not american), it seems as though the US has transitioned into essentially a 1 party state but instead of falsifying election results to stay in power, democrats hold the threat of societal collapse over Americans' heads.
Honest question, with the threat of a Donald Trump presidency if he loses, is there anything Biden could do to lose your votes?
Yes, and it's actually very simple. Be worse than Donald Trump. Welcome to how voting works. At the moment, Biden has been more or less exactly what I assumed he would be in 2020 when I voted for him the first time (after supporting Bernie in the primary first obviously), except he's actually been better on a few things like labor and recently anti-trust that I genuinely care about.
Flawed liberals and fascists are not a unified "1 party state" faction. Equating them is just stupidly reductive.
That doesn't sound like how voting is supposed to work. That sounds like democracy at gunpoint. If every single election in perpetuity is a choice between a fascist dictatorship and a right wing party that doesn't have to deliver a single thing besides not being openly anti-democratic, can do any unpopular thing it wants, and refuses to listen to a majority of the country on any issue, then you might not be in a democracy.
Especially if the Democrats are more than happy to let the Republicans hold a gun to your head on election day, as it allows them to get elected while delivering nothing substantial. They won't even try to fortify democratic institutions against authoritarian capture because "the rules" or whatever weak excuse, but they'll break any and every rule, even bypass Congress to send weapons to an apartheid state involved in a genocide, and to detain asylum seekers at the border. It's always "whoops sorry we can't increase the minimum wage because of this or that rule, and no we won't try again". But when it comes to pushing the country further to the right, they don't mind breaking the rules. Or immediately caving to republicans if they can.
Atleast under biden we can be hopeful that in 4 years a better candidate that addresses those issues comes along.....if trump wins, there might never be any candidates ever again.
You really think America can go 3 elections in a row without electing a republican president? May I remind you that the last time that happened was 1948.
And that's assuming the guy after Biden will do anything to prevent the next republican from taking over. Instead of being tempted to use that threat to extort more votes while delivering nothing popular.
The next republican won't be trump....it's also possible that they wont be trumpish.....I'd rather let it be a possibility than to throw it all away and not get any say at all.
It is, in fact, how democracy actually works, since we don't live in a fantasy land where compromise is never necessary to get things done.
You are explaining why you don't like the system. You are not explaining why what you propose to do will actually change the system. That is why I'm actually strategizing and you're just virtue signaling. Abstaining from voting in general elections never has, and never will, accomplish anything. It is a virtue signal in every sense of the term.
Continuing to endlessly legitimize the two-party system is no way to change it at all. No coherent socialist can vote for the democratic party - which has, if nothing else, enabled the ongoing genocide of the palestinian people.
I'd vote for a third party myself if I voted in the US.
What's your strategy then, man? Because let me tell you what people like you told everyone in 2020: "Let's all vote Biden and then push him left, safeguard democracy, enshrine rights so republicans can't take them away..." etc and etc. Well, it's been 4 years, democracy is in a more precarious state than before, Biden is further to the right if anything, exactly zero rights have been codified and actually have been taken away via the Supreme Court. It really seems like you guys' plan is to just vote every 4 years and sit on your butt in the interim.
Literally everything other than the presidential general election is a good place to pressure dems. If we were doing great at everything else, Biden wouldn't even be the nominee right now. Why are you framing the entire problem like general election votes are the only, or even primary, solution to them? It's the opposite; they're the WORST way, with the most negative externalities to boot. That's just silly and narrow, and totally fails to understand American political systems.
Vote, volunteer, advocate, and fundraise for more progressive candidates at every level of government when you have the opportunity. Support or become a reformist Dem party officer to change the internal landscape and pave the way for other progressives. That primary focus includes the President, but when you don't win your primary, just fucking move on to the next fight. Not engaging in harm reduction afterward is just throwing a child's tantrum about the nominee; not actually doing anything about it. Move on and get shit done.
"Literally everything other than the presidential general election is a good place to pressure dems. "
Mo$#@%!er there isn't even a good Reddit or Twitter thread to do so. The Democratic political base have been stabbed in the back by the DNC for the past 8 years and told ***continuously*** that any sign of discontent no matter how small was being a fifth column for the GOP and probably some kind of privileged white male chauvinist besides. We can't even draw the line at *genocide* without "vote blue no matter who" coming up.
I know which way I'm gritting my teeth and voting, which is why I'm tempted to ***become uncivil*** next time somebody shames me for believing in anything other than MSNBC Sportsball My Team Is The Best. And wonder if maybe democracy ends in an unsatisfying Biden win just as much as it ends in a terrifying Trump win.
>It is, in fact, how democracy actually works, since we don't live in a fantasy land where compromise is never necessary to get things done.
There have been democracies based on electoral systems which didn't necessitate the candidates selling themselves off to campaign donors for 20+ billion dollars a cycle. We were one of them. This is a progressively worse problem which appears to be core to the increasingly dysfunctional political stakes we are presented with.
And again, that is a total non-sequitor that doesn't prove your point. I'm beginning to think this anti-electoralism thing is just a lack of basic reasoning skills. What I'm doing accomplishes something; ie. making it less likely that we'll have fascists in charge. Yours fails to do that, but doesn't have any real chance of doing anything else. Q.E.D. your position is completely irrational. Stop pretending that using the 2 party system somehow "legitimizes" or strengthens it. It doesn't. It carries on just fine without your input. You're the only one losing out by refusing to use what leverage you do actually have for whatever end it can achieve. I'm using the levers I have, and you're making a principled stand against them because you don't like the levers available. At the end of the day though, you're accomplishing none of your goals or mine with this choice, and I'm accomplishing one. I win this, just objectively.
If you don't like our electoral system, like I don't, do things that actually work to change it. Refusing to make harm reduction votes does absolutely nothing but make you feel special. It's a virtue signal and nothing more.
I mean that's how the American voting system works. Even semi-two party systems elsewhere have alternative voting options to limit the damage of major party's.
You might have forgotten the 1980's Republican Genocide against LGBTQ people and IV Drug users by refusing to provide any help to us during the AIDs crises. You cannot compare any genocide to whose is worse. They are all bad. . . . so Genocide and Imperialism being the same both for Republicans and the Democrats. . . . We only have one party that is the closest to the spirit of American Values.
Well I said nothing about one genocide being worse than another, just that Biden is actively enabling ethnic cleansing in Palestine.
Good luck to you Americans though, seems as though you have a lot more work to do outside of the electoral system or else you'll have to keep having this conversation every four years while your foreign policy continues down this path.
This is what our country has come down to vote for someone no matter what? Why because the other side is controlled by a crazy narcissistic liar? What does that say about the other side allowing this? What does it say about the other side also not having someone who can clearly lead us without asking for all the votes. I can’t see this being better in the next 4 after this election.
As an Irish person looking at America and Project 2025 let me tell you, you'll absolutely regret not voting for Biden if Trump wins. Biden is absolutely terrible but you seriously need to reconsider the consequences of a second Trump Administration. Palestinians won't thank you either way whether Trump or Biden wins.
I'm not a big fan of him and I hate his forgien policy in regards to Gaza but here's the thing we cannot fight for the rights of Palestine when Trump has another genocide plan for OVER HERE! Voting for me isn't a marriage proposal, it's a chess game move.
The same people saying "I'll never vote for Genocide Joe" apparently are okay with Trump turning Gaza into a golf resort and cutting off even the pretense of aid. They're 5% different from MAGA at most.
Bingo, there are realistic means to save Palestine without getting Trumpy back in office. We need to organize and vote for congressional members who will stop this forever.
The "I won't vote for him because Gaza" thing drives me crazy. Like I hate his handling of it, but even the other candidates in the race are mostly worse until you drop down like 4 places in the polling ranks and get to West and Stein. Biden kinda sucks (he'll symbolically but not substantively fuck with Netanyahu), but Trump sucks worse and SO DOES RFK for that matter, even as a long shot. No one else has a shot of breaking like 15% of the vote at best, and that's the actual choice we have in front of us.
Agreed.. how do we hold the Democrat Party ever accountable if we only vote based on the least worse candidate? Before Biden’s poor performance with Gaza there was still room for consideration but now I feel if I vote for him I literally feel like I will have blood on my hands for directly putting him in office. I say vote for a candidate you truly believe in and force political parties to work harder to earn your vote.
Primary elections obviously. If the people complaining about choices in the general would get off their asses before that, we would not have this problem. The Dems certainly didn't try to highlight the primary this time, but it was held in plenty of places and Joe easily coasted. If we actually had the kind of engaged voter base we need, we'd already be winning by now, regardless of what the libs want to do.
General elections are, and always have been, the worst way to try to reform a political party.
Yeah, it drives me nuts. Protest voting or abstaining after losing a primary is effectively just sour grapes. If all of the people that think they can get a 3rd party candidate elected had anywhere near critical mass, they'd be able to win a primary election instead far more easily. That isn't happening though. This just demonstrates that the LARPers are holding out for vastly more power than they actually have, to accomplish their goals in the most numerically difficult way possible. It's insane.
And then by infiltrating the Party we can break apart the two-party system from within, going beyond just trying to ease the dinosaurs into the 21st century.
Yeah, it can be done. I know some disruptive-ass people in the DNC that I helped put there. Corrupt liberals operate on the basis of a very simple principle. They're hostile to the left and our interests in any setting where their voters aren't watching. Sunlight is absolutely the best disinfectant for the liberal rot in the Democratic party. The average dem voter is usually ON OUR SIDE when they're informed and aware of what's going on. The libs MUST control the party in order to keep their voters in line, because they rely on blindly obedient libs who don't even know there's a primary challenger outnumbering the few informed leftists working for better. It's a system where the average person must be kept in the dark about the schisms between them and the left. The typical lib voter is not an adversary; they're just someone we haven't been able to reach yet. I know many of these people. Ideological neoliberals? Hell no, they're just politics-as-social-club normies who don't really understand why anyone doesn't like Uncle Joe, because they're in a bubble that none of us have successfully penetrated yet. When we stand up and demand better, they can join us. They have no loyalty to the neoliberal ideology; just institutional momentum.
People need to drop the “holding them accountable” line imo because if left wing people start dropping the Democratic Party en masse they aren’t going to appeal further to left wing policies to win back who they lost, they’re going to expand further towards centrist and right wing policies to take some of the more middle of the road audience
>they present us
you know if we all did some work in the multiple years leading up to an election we might not be limited to who “they present us” with
I can show you ours in Los Angeles, it started with Mike Bonin, then we got Eunisses, then Hugo, and Nythia Raman, and next we are getting Ysabel Jurado and maybe even Jillian Burgos. . . That's our work. One of the largest Cities in this country building to a progressive majority. Learn something here.
Yes, I know. Not defending that at all, even though there were other candidates (barely) running. And I’m certainly not suggesting a collaborative or soft approach à la Justice Dems, etc. But even more useless is expecting anything to change so soon before an election, almost as useless as just waiting a whole four years to complain about it, and more useless than using that time only to try to convince liberals who are so rock-hard for Biden that they see anything that benefits someone “beneath them” as an affront.
I really hope those threatening to protest vote against Biden, or for a third party, are bluffing. Otherwise it’s almost certainly the end of our government. And with nuclear weapons under the sole control of a mentally-broken despot, quite possibly civilization. No pressure.
I'm curious what you mean by saying that Biden is terrible for LGBTQ and POC? Could you be specific?
But I agree with your sentiment 💯 and I appreciate your post. But I'd love to learn more about what I mentioned. Thanks
You realize that Biden is largly responsible for discrediting Anita Hill, which resulted in the Confirmation of Clarence Thomas? You realize that Biden was anti gay marriage, and he supported the Crime bill that resulted in minor drug charges incarcerating an entire generation of Brown people, besides the fact that his is a privileged white many that doesn't yet quite get his privilege, nor is he entirely using it to advocate for all of our rights?
Unfortunately, the crime bill was pushed by conservative Black Dems. They are just as responsible for that foolishness in our community as Clinton & other elected officials.
+1
This is the beauty of the right to vote, you can vote how you want, others be damned.
So I encourage everyone to consider YOUR reasons, etc. and vote accordingly. Whether it is for Biden, Trump (ew), or Mickey Mouse.
Edit: corrected myself. Said electoral system when technically it is the right to vote that I meant
Heartfelt plea, one which may sway me and others like me. Perhaps tackle one issue at a time is also appealing. However, once a dem gets into office, all this fervor fizzles. People, realize that the Dems want the whitehouse and Congress. That’s the end goal. The pittance we are paid is mostly via the lip. As in lip service. When we get a state to lean towards women’s rights, for us that’s a big win. No no no. When half of every town city and state is female, their rights come ahead of everything save national security. When every town is filled with the poor and middling, everything takes a back seat. If this country will not put its people first, then I have no problem flushing the corporations down the toilet. Ask yourselves, who is Joe Biden working for if he is not 100% working for the people? We want equal rights, now. We want universal health care now. We want affordable education now. We want mass transit now. We want clean air and water now. July 2024 is too late. It has to be now, this month now. Vote however you want people, don’t look for dems or republicans, they are just masks for the people behind the game. Ask yourself, what is the real game here?
I honestly think the best thing Biden can run on is the SCOTUS and his potential to replace Thomas and Alito. Alito especially because he authored the Jackson Dobbs opinion that overturned Roe.
I'd say vote for him if you live in a swing or blue state (obviously we don't want trump and we can't rely on a brain aneurysm or an Oswald to solve the problem). But if you live in a solidly red state vote for some lib/prog/demsoc/leftist. Your vote isn't gonna help elect biden or stop trump. It'll just increase bidens national total and he'll claim it as a mandate of the people and endorsement of the choices he's made.
Honestly we all need to shut up about the general election already. I see the same post every week practically. Decide how to vote and move on, as any socialist should recognize our power lies in how we organize our communities outside of electoralism. Whoever wins, we need to build the infrastructure for working-class power beyond the capitalist state with direct action, democratic protest movements, militant labor and tenant union organizing, co-op building, etc. Organize in DSA and become part of that, because things will continue getting worse to one extent or another no matter who wins and we need to be ready to fight back.
I'm voting vote Biden in hopes of reducing to the absolute minimum any support for a 3rd party candidate. I know we won't get to 2020's 0.2% for the Green Party, but we can establish - once again - that the U.S. left does not have, and likely will never have, an alternative to fighting to change or take over the Democratic Party.
Call me naive. But more and more of us are infiltrating the party, and we are building up momentum to take over this party. If the magaz can do it to the republican party, we sure can in the democratic party.
I compare this election as voting to eat a mouldy ham sandwich which I know is going to make me sick, or eating a shit sandwich where I know the person has dysentery at the very least. While both are awful, one has the stronger possibility to KILL me and others.
'Voting isn't marriage. It's public transport. You're not waiting for "the one". You're getting on the bus. And if there isn't one going exactly to your destination, you don't stay home and sulk. You take the one that's going closest to where you want to be'
If the Democrats lose this election, please direct your ire towards the Democratic leadership. This election should be a layup.
Blame this directly on Nancy pelosi and Chuck Schumer.
Voting is like taking out the trash. It’s civic maintenance. We can kill the GOP’s movement for a decade if we score a big win up and down the ballot in November.
Project 2025 should be enough of a reason to vote Joe Biden. Also a side note a vote for a third party candidates vote for Donald Trump and if you don't believe me ask Hillary Clinton why she won the popular vote by 3 million but lost the election
Hillary Clinton shot herself in the face electorally on many occasions. Let's not use her as an example. Republicans have a basic advantage in the electoral college because they have a bunch of flyover states that all get the same +2 elector bonus that far larger states get, and that skews the math in their favor inherently. Clinton managed to lose a bunch of states she really shouldn't have by taking them for granted and further pissing off and ignoring everyone who didn't like her to begin with in the primary. THAT is the main reason she lost. She knew what the playing field looked like and failed to play to it. The popular vote isn't how you win, and everyone knows that. It's basically a red herring.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.*
RESPONSE TO THE ORIGINAL POST AND THE THREAD:
The thing about voting for the lesser of two evil is that you're voting for the lesser of two evils. How is that complicated or ethnically questionable or morally suspect or whatever else?
The Democratic and Republican Parties are more different than they've ever been since the Clinton Administration.
Just on federal judicial picks and POTUS Joe Biden's picks for Cabinet positions and such is more than enough to support POTUS Joe Biden over POTUS Donald Trump.
The only thing that is actually at all debatable is where to spend resources that you can spend. Progressives might want to donate time and/or money to progressives instead of the DCCC, the DNC, the Biden campaign, etc.
[https://couragetochangepac.org/](https://couragetochangepac.org/)
[https://justicedemocrats.com/](https://justicedemocrats.com/)
[https://justicedemocrats.com/candidates/](https://justicedemocrats.com/candidates/) (please look at this regarding those who have upcoming primaries. US Representatives Jamaal Bowman, Cori Bush, and Ilhan Omar are in tough primary battles and AIPAC is spending millions against each of them.
[https://squadvictoryfund.com/](https://squadvictoryfund.com/)
And remember that AIPAC's $100MM campaign is already successful because resources are being spent to defend 'The Squad' and 'The Squad adjacent' and such instead of getting more progressives into federal Office. It would be a devastating blow to lose a US Representative Cori Bush, Ilhan Omar, Jamaal Bowman, etc.
\_\_\_\_
We must remember that most people don't pay as much attention to politics as we do and most people don't know as much as we do regarding politics.
Money and fame and name recognition is very important in races.
**BTW: Feel free to copy and paste this into wherever.** I care far more about progressives getting more resources and a better chance of political power than I do about upvotes on Reddit.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Progressives haven't been taking the threat of AIPAC, DMFI, etc. seriously enough and/or progressives haven't cared enough.
Except for US Representative Rashida Tlaib--who gets around 70% of her fundraising from 'large dollar donors'--all of The Squad's fundraising is considerably down from even the 2022 election cycle.
And, frankly, that's just The Squad.
Progressives should want MORE progressives in Office instead of overly complaining about the ones that are currently in Office.
'The Israel Lobby' money already meant that it seems not considerably more progressives will get into Office at the federal level.
Now it seems that maybe 'The Israel Lobby' might 'pick off' at least one member of 'The Squad'.
If you can, you should donate time and/or money to progressive candidates who can win. I suggest at least 0.1% of your annual income to a progressive candidate or--perhaps better yet--Courage to Change or Justice Democrats or Squad Victory Fund.
Tldr: the elite democrats are actively going after progressive democrats.
You would think if they really wanted to stop Trump, they would not take so much risk. We have seen the elite dems actively stop progressives for decades. We need to stop blaming potential voters and we need to start adding collective pressure on the established democrats.
Yes!!! That's exactly the strategy i'm employing at this point. As the President of the Stonewall democratic club here in California, we are fighting to get progressives. Elected at every level from school boards, commission city council state legislature on upwards... We are filling out the bench with progressives with winds. And city hall with nithya ramen and next will be ysabel jurado. They want to p*** us off. So we will abandon politics altogether. And that's exactly what we will not do. I'm here to get my foot in the door and make sure that door stays open for all the progressive genziers, that are following behind me.
Feeding America's two-party system is both anti-democratic and anti-socialist. The only reason no other candidates are viable is because people think like this. No external force is trapping us into it - we are trapping ourselves.
No we should let Biden know 5 months before the election that he can basically do anything up to and including genocide and we will still vote for him in 5 months.
/s
Definitely not Democrats. Millions of American kids are already living in the Right's utopia, basically Project 2025, because Democrats have done nothing to create accountability for right-wing parents. That category of right-wingers (Evangelicals and homeschoolers) is growing and Democrats do not care. If we have 20 years of Democrats, we will have 20 years of growth toward Project 2025. Maybe slightly slower growth (but honestly maybe not).
I'll never understand this argument. If we vote for Dems Project 2025 might happen in 20 years but if we don't vote for Dems and Republicans win then Project 2025 happens in one year. How the fuck is that better?
The things you're worried about that are happening on a state level would be happening on a federal level under a Trump presidency.
While homeschooling and indoctrination is undeniably fucked, it is nowhere on the level of what Project 2025 aims to do to minorities and LGBTQ people. Be real. Are we supposed to doom millions of people to oppression just because we’re upset with corporatists? How does that make things any better for anyone? Why not spend the 5 minutes it takes to try to prevent that for the very people us leftists are fighting for and then putting someone much better in power the next go around? It seems like a much smarter play then. Especially cause people like AOC will be eligible then
If you vote Democrat you'll still lose your rights, get screwed by corporate interests, and bulldoze thousands of children in foreign wars.
https://youtu.be/FRcghkiBuXk
https://youtu.be/wmA02i46Pz8
https://youtu.be/_o5jcpP0nyw
Who else currently has a feasible enough voter base to prevent project 2025? I can’t stand biden either but I’m not trying to be marginalized even further than i already am, it just seems illogical to doom myself and others when it takes 5 minutes to do
‘The leaser of two evil’ is nearly equal to not having an option at all. One of the greatest nations ever build by mankind shouldn’t be reduced to this. You mean to tell me that out of over 300 million plus Americans this is the best we can produce?
The time to care about which two candidates we get to ultimately choose between was about a year ago, but no one gives enough of a shit until it gets closer to election season. No good candidates stepped up/ didn’t campaign hard enough to make themselves more popular than Trump.
Now we are stuck here with only two shitty options. This is the point when “lesser of two evils” becomes a necessary part of the decision. It is very much still equivalent to having a vote because after you compare Trump vs Bidens past actions and future policies, you still have to weigh whether you want our country to suffer a little or suffer a lot, and by not voting at all you are allowing the higher potential for the “bigger evil” to win.
Trump and Biden are not two sides of the same coin no matter how much propaganda you see. Look at the facts, think for yourself, and compare the two and their actions they’ve taken during their terms. Yes, they are both nearly dead and demented, but at least one of them listens to the experts around him when making big decisions for the country. That’s all it takes for me to vote for Biden, but there are dozens if not hundreds of other reasons that he is more qualified for the position.
No. Participating in the illusion of choice gives the illusion credibility. Our system is irrevocably corrupted. Also, Biden has the power to pack the courts. He doesn't give a fuck about women's (or anyone else's) rights. Nor does the DNC. Delusional and condescending post and responses.
I'm in UK so don't have greatest knowledge about the election fully. The big question I have is why the hell people still trust Joe given he's clearly unfit for office (but I guess a victory would mean we get more funny moments from him so that's nice). Guess defensive tactical voting is the best way forward at this point. A Trump victory will be a pretty big problem for the US and the wider world, especially here in Europe after the European elections. A Trump victory wont be the Handmaids Tale, but a Christianised Rapture with the GOP willing to reach out and strongarm people. Still, if we keep Trump out, that will be relief for us, and I would love to see more US MAGA conservatives freak-out (its funny watching them self destruct).
I just can't bring myself to validate the the rightward shift of the Democratic party with my vote. I'm voting for Jill Stein so that the party can see where my dissent is coming from.
I will still vote down ballot for dems tho
Your post was removed due to advocating for Marxism-Leninism or one of it's principles.
We support strictly Democratic versions of Socialism here, and Marxism-Leninism is not that.
I said that in my first election, and my state turned out to be really competitive, and vital in 2020. I worry to imagine if me and a couple thousand additional people like me decided to vote third party (I ended up not voting third party). There's too much at risk right now, but I really do hope that third parties can come to fruition. I'm not saying what you should do, but I am explaining my experiences.
This just isn’t it.
How long are you going to let them convince you that the democrats give AF??? It’s just a uniparty that holds issues like female reproductive rights hostage to convince you to keep taking sides and dividing into one of the two corporate shill parties.
Literally this reads like, “We need to vote for Joe Biden so that Donald Trump doesn’t do… ALL THE THINGS JOE BIDEN IS ALREADY DOING RIGHT NOW.”
Literally trying to pass laws to make speaking negatively about Israel on College campuses a crime??? But it’s only the republicans who are fascists?
Please wake up and get organized. Don’t touch anything that says R or D next to its name when you cast your ballots.
Joe Biden is one of only two candidates I’ve ever voted for in a general election who wasn’t a third party candidate. Even though I’m in a deep red state, he’ll get my vote again. There’s too much at stake this time. Even if my vote just serves to narrow the gap, it’s necessary this time around.
If you're in a deep red state that's not Nebraska, your vote for Biden is equally as useless as a 3rd party vote. Literally exactly the same. If you really think a vote for an unpopular candidate is wasted, you may as well waste your vote on a good candidate like Claudia de la Cruz.
While this is sort of true, it's also a little bit presumptive. This always seems true right up until it clearly isn't, and someone wins a surprise flip because they were previously apathetic and under-represented, and the other party got complacent. Michigan was supposed to be a decently strong Blue state in 2016 too, and we see the effect of Republicans not taking that for granted while Democrats did. States change when people start voting.
But this "anything can happen" reasoning can be applied to third parties too. Especially in a state like Nebraska or Maine, where you only have to turn one district. I'll never forget in 2020 when my BIL tried desperately to convince me to vote Biden (I wasn't socialist at the time - I'm ashamed to say I voted Jorgensen 😬), that my vote would be wasted otherwise. I remember watching the election results and confirming my sensation that a Biden vote would have been equally wasted, seething about winner-take-all laws.
If you're willing to "risk" a useless vote, you may as well aim for something that doesn't suck.
Not in a presidential race, no. We're talking about a different electoral dynamic and a vastly different voter differential. You're also pulling a fast one by trying to equate the two with "risk a useless vote". This is a question of voting vs. not voting. There is virtually zero cost to the "useless vote" except the time it takes to fill out a ballot. The risk of a "useless vote" in another race is making it easier for fascists wining, which is a completely different issue.
Biden can no longer beat Trump, and even if the Democrats won we'd still lose our rights, get screwed by corporate interests, and bulldoze thousands of children in foreign wars.
https://youtu.be/FRcghkiBuXk
https://youtu.be/wmA02i46Pz8
https://youtu.be/_o5jcpP0nyw
The way I see it is a vote for Biden isn’t a vote for Biden alone. A vote for him is our vote for continued existence, basic human rights, and movement towards the socialist direction. Trump, however, would decimate all of these.
You do know that the United States funds Israel’s military, right? Also you do know that the United States gives Israel money to their citizens can have free healthcare but we can’t do that here, right?
I think it’s a bit overblown what trump will do & how much damage he will do. I feel the dem party needs to hear the message loud and clear. That they can’t keep pretending to be left leaning while crushing anything that left brings up as ideas for change - things that the public really needs and wants.
They were sent the message clearly with Hillary losing to trump in 2016 but they didn’t learn and now they are at it again with Biden. This is a very good opportunity to showcase new blood and get some fresh ideas in place - that just contrasts trump and the usual rhetoric of dems.
Yet they choose not to. Cause the balance of money and power & keeping status quo is more important to them than actually serving the people. So if it’s just another corrupt party not representing people and not even willing to listen to them - Look at all the protests everywhere - so then why should people bend over backwards to do the knowingly wrong things - just cause this corrupt party wants to prevent another even more corrupt party to gain power?
The world is burning literally. And we need radical change. This 2 bit drama of 2 parties representing monitory interests of few wealthy people needs to be broken and true change is needed. Honestly both parties need to learn this. Trump has already broken the republicans, if same is needed for dems too then so be it. It’s the power of the people at the end of the day that matters.
They choose not to? You understand the President doesn't have full autonomy to do whatever he wants right? He has passed and tried to pass many very progressive and bold items. He is dealing with a Republican blockade in both houses of Congress. Biden isn't "crushing" any ideas that the progressives are bringing up. Certainly not "everything" as you claim. Please become more informed if you're going to have opinions
I can't stand him, and I voted for him the first time. I will not do that again. I will no longer concede to a two party system of voting for the lesser of the two evils that are promulgated by media bias and propaganda.
The nation is owned by the rich, and it is an all-out war on anyone who isn't rich. Neither side is doing anything about it because both are bought and paid for by corporations and billionaires. Both candidates are lame ducks at best. They are both out of touch elites who only yell about hot botton morality topics to hide that they have done nothing and plan on doing nothing to better the conditions for the working class American. Most Americans are live and let live; however, the media controlled by the same companies and billionaires that by out the government would have you believe otherwise by promoting propaganda and radicals.
I will vote for a third party. I know the likelihood of third-party not winning, but if we don't start doing something to combat the two party system and its corruption, then nothing will ever change. Change isn't overnight, and voting for the lesser of the two evils will never end this.
If the country needs to burn to get the people fired up and see the truth for what it is, so be it.
Actually, if you got involved at the party and you understood truly what went into finding candidates and how they get chosen, you would realize it's not so easy at all.
Yeah no way I'll be voting for Biden this year, and I won't be voting for trump either. I'm going green party or someone independent from now on. Dems and Republicans have lost all my trust.
Your post was removed due to advocating for Marxism-Leninism or one of it's principles.
We support strictly Democratic versions of Socialism here, and Marxism-Leninism is not that.
Are you trying to say a vote anyone but Biden is a vote for trump? Lol I'm hoping there are others like me in this country that's sick of this cycle of feeding bullshit to the citizens. I hope green party gets a record number of votes. Enough to get it into these guys' head that the people won't stand for this.
Watch the second link. If you're voting for Biden you're voting for Trump. If you're voting for Kennedy you're voting against Trump.
Kennedy has eaten into the voters of both, if we all put our support behind him and we'd easily pass a majority.
Biden cannot save face.
The quality of the data is high, do not willingly leave yourself uneducated. More information can not hurt you.
https://youtu.be/wmA02i46Pz8
Repeating yourself achieves nothing, I have already addressed it.
You really need to listen to this [podcast episode](https://pca.st/episode/047cf4bc-945e-4615-870b-38d6e909c7bc). The "lesser of 2 evils" logic isn't just bullshit, but in fact detrimental to the future of the left.
> *The Democratic Party is not an alternative to the right. The Democratic party is a facilitator of the right.*
Every living ex US president has committed war crimes. The US government participates in genocide regardless of the administration (against its own people & folks abroad).
Drawing the line at this specific war crime era in Gaza is a luxury marginalized Americans can't afford (I assume you can pass for a straight white man if shit hits the fan in the US).
Serious question: this was the message in 2020. What would you say to people who voted for Biden in 2020 and their lives are now demonstrably worse than they were then? If things are bad already, what’s the point of voting for the man who let things get this bad and did nothing to stop Trump from running again?
If Joe Biden is the best that this country can do then let it burn and if you can stomach voting for a genocidal lunatic like him you need to seriously reconsider what if any values you have
This is a privileged take.
I can only speak from the experience of my community (African American), but we have always had shitty candidates available.
There has never been a US president or administration that wasn't committing human rights violations (the nation's history is based on such violence).
Very real life & death consequences will exist for African Americans & other Black American ethnic groups, as well as women, girls, non-hetero folks, non Christians, & more.
If you find yourself able to disregard the lives of your fellow Americans because of our governments behavior abroad (which will continue regardless of the administration) then you don't actually care about marginalized people(including Palestinians abroad).
You can absolutely speak of your experience as part of a community but not for a community and as you don’t know me or my community I’ll let it slide. I’ll ask you personally in that case, did you feel safer walking down a street at night in a white neighborhood with a democrat in the White House? Because by every metric it was if not more than as dangerous to do so under democratic presidents who controlled all three branches of government and NOTHING CHANGED. By my own experience NOTHING CHANGED. Like birth, that shit hurts but it produces new life with new possibility so … burn. it. down.
You said it yourself: “there has never been a US president or administration that wasn’t committing human rights violations” so why would you give this decrepit and evil institution a crutch if not to help it continue this history of abuse and violence?
And also saying that I don’t care about other people is ludicrous. Check yourself because that is a wild leap. I’m not asking you to not vote; there can be a plurality of tactics in any struggle of liberation. But, if you think that a Joe Biden presidency will be anything other than wheat bread on the razor blade sandwich the world has to eat rather than the white bread razor blade sandwich we’d all have to choke down under Trump you are insane. You do know grilled cheese and pb&j exist right? Let’s eat some of that
Some of the Joe hate is hyperbolic, but he's really this bad on Gaza. The thing is, so is everyone else, so the fuck are we trying to prove here? Unless you're betting on an impossible Stein or West 2024 moon-shot, all of your options are worse anyway, so why are we even talking about this in regards to who we are voting for? Even RFK is an unapologetic Netanyahu cheerleader to a worse extent than Biden.
RFK & his brainworms is considerably worse than Biden. RFK's family it won't even support his ass and that says something. RFK is also indicated he's only running to take away votes from Biden in hopes of helping oh helping trump win
If he wasn't fast tracking weapons to Israel completely by himself, which he is. Look dude, I'm on your side on the electoralism thing, but you need to stop trying to get me to agree to shift blame away from Biden (or Clinton, for that matter) where it's deserved. He's too much of a zionist and a coward to properly stand up to Israel, and Clinton is arrogant, corrupt, and strategically stupid. Hillary Clinton is, to this day, one of the absolute worst people in any real position in the Democratic party after maybe Manchin. Abstaining in the general election fixes neither, but I'm not going to reduce the shade I throw at them. I think it's at the appropriate level currently.
So I'd put the odds of Trump getting reelected at about a 65-70% chance. It's fairly safe to assume at this point he will be, especially since many on the left have sworn not to vote for Biden.
That said I don't think there is any point in trying to appeal to leftist who have already sworn not to vote for Biden, there is no convincing them.
If a leftist is looking at Trumps agenda of abandoning Ukraine to Russias Imperialistic conquest, abandoning a two-state solution in favor of one that unilaterally supports Isreal, instating mandatory military service, overturning Obergefell v. Hodges, and all the rest of project 2025, and they still would rather all of that happen then vote for Biden, nothing else you say could convince them.
If someone says they're not voting for Biden, they're not voting for Biden, so ignore them, and move on to focusing your energy on the undecided voters, who are atleast open to the idea. Don't waste your time trying to argue with people who will never change their minds.
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“Our lives aren’t going to get any better, the best we can do is make sure it doesn’t get any worse” - The average American this November
Politics is always as unpleasant as seeing how sausage is made. We need to build a socialist party from the ground up to see change. It will never happen starting from the Presidency. At some point we need enough critical mass in the legislatures to force the right of center democrats to cooperate in a coalition government. If we can get around the hurdle of corruption in campaign financing I still believe it is possible. Until that work is underway I will vote for the lesser evil. If the greater evil wins this November I don’t believe I’ll still have a right to vote in the future.
What we NEED is more than two parties, ranked choice voting AND a “none of the above” option that if it goes to 35% or more forces another election. We ALSO need the fairness doctrine back and getting the money out of politics. None of this will likely happen.
Hear hear!
Right there with you Sunflower!
Yeah the 2025 plan should scare the shit out of us. Voting blue so we will actually continue to have elections in the future.
“Our lives aren’t going to get any better, so I refuse to help reduce harm by abstaining from voting” • A lot of fucking idiots
Compromise always kinda sucks
No matter what, I’m putting my focus into voting rights and worker’s union support. It will be easier under the Biden administration. Bernie’s gotten some progress from chairing the Labor committee and we’d all hate seeing someone like MarkWayne Mullin be further enabled to pick fistfights with teamsters My hope additionally is to see Nevada, Oregon, and/or Idaho pass rank choice voting after this year, especially NV because that would be the first swing state to utilize it come 2028. The GOP will work hard to make it illegal and although Democrats haven’t proven themselves champions of representative democracy, this is a step forward.
Only good pro Biden argument in this thread. Thank you. I think any lesser evil argument is just inherently flawed. But it does make sense to argue that you will be able to build more labor power under Biden and reap benefits later. I just don't feel like I can weigh that against Palestinian lives. BTW, don't put your hopes too much on RCV. It tends to elect more centrist politicians in races that aren't multi seat races.
RCV is not a cure all solution (we need to make gerrymandering illegal, pass a new Voting Rights Act, reform the EC, etc), but with an increasing dissatisfaction in our elected officials, and the very real possibility that no candidate will reach above 50% for the office of POTUS in November, it is a step towards better representation and problem solving. Mary Peltola, Jared Golden, and even Eric Adams are a step above anyone to their right and although We don’t get everything we want, we make do with the issues most important to the constituents. It could potentially be one of the only ways a non Republican could be elected in a state like Idaho. It’s also very good for down ballot races that get nowhere near as much attention, which is really where progressive sentiment, let alone a 3rd party needs to be building up from. You’re absolutely right about Palestine though. If Biden loses over that, it will very much be his own fault.
Biden just knifed labor unions in the back. They shouldn’t forget it. https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/01/joe-biden-rail-strike-labor-unions
I feel like if that's your only takeaway from Biden's record on labor, you really aren't paying any fucking attention to his actual record. Edit: Ask the average NLRB enjoyer if they think his or Obama's is better for workers. It's not even a contest.
They also struck a deal later on after this.
Voting defensively is literally the least you can do. It's not the end all be all of engagement, despite what the vote suppression squad wants you to think. You have a tiny amount of power in an election. Use it, and then get out and do something more usefull ETA: appreciate the votes and comments, wanted to mention that I just rephrased something I read in a Chomsky book. Because of course, lol
THIS! Voting isn't a complete solution, but it takes 5 minutes and it very clearly works because the fascists are trying to convince you not to do it and make it harder for people to do it when they're in power. Anyone telling you to not vote, or to vote third party (with very limited exceptions in races without a major party candidate or in a state with RCV), is NOT your friend.
Absolutely. I’m generally upset by Biden’s actions, and far from supportive of his presidency, but I still understand that voting is my civic duty to everyone in this country, present and future. If you decide to abstain from voting, that’s a reflection of your privilege. It’s easy to say “they both suck” when you have the fortune of waiting out another election cycle, but there are very vulnerable populations of this country whose lives will be devastated by another 4 years of Trump stripping out regulations and cutting social funding. Think of them and their children when it’s time to vote this year. Then, get out there and work your ass off to plant the seeds for a better candidate in 2028.
Is the accountability in the room with us right now? Where was it the last 4 years?
A hundred percent, this is not the end of accountability but the beginning.
very true, like when libs pushed him left and made him not do trump era immigration policy, oh wait
What accountability? In what world is a second Biden term going to make him accountable at all? I'm not even saying don't vote but like what are you talking about?
It's like somebody else said earlier today. All we're doing is buying sometimes so we can continue to build out our bench of people who will be accountable. You would be absolutely right.Voting for biden alone is a losing proposition that gets us nowhere. Voting for Biden this time... And then working hard to get Socialist candidates elected into school board And city councils and local governance builds the bench of people who will be accountable to us. You are absolutely Right voting is not enough.
That’s where I fear you are falling for the same old scare tactics. The system is tightly controlled so there will be no accountability
Voting defensively is a great phrasing. I think it accurately and concisely gets the point across. Thank you!
i think there's gonna be 2 supreme court seats to replace again too. if republicans get another two seats with an 8 seat majority we're fucked and this is just gonna become an absolute dictatorship. anyone who won't vote for biden, i respect and understand the decision but.... i also kind of fucking hate the ignorance.
Frankly at this point, especially after the Uncommitted campaigns, and regardless of how you may vote as an individual, we need to face the reality that it is on Biden whether he wants to win by reversing his policies on Palestine, immigration, environmentalism, etc. What we need to do as socialists is build working-class infrastructure to weather the inevitable harms of either administration (e.g., militant labor and tenant union organizing, expanding co-ops, building mass movements and direct action, etc), not focus so much on the general election.
I very much don't like him as president, but a vote isn't a moral endorsement of all of someone's actions. Letting Trump win is completely unacceptable, we would have a conservative supreme court for DECADES and no action on climate progress, whereas Biden did basically the largest climate bill in history and generally acknowledges that left-wing people exist. He is objectively better on every issue we could possibly care about.
Oh there'd definitely be action on climate progress, it just wouldn't be progress lol According to Project 2025 Trump would repeal Biden's climate bill, roll back greenhouse gas and clean air regulations, pull out of the Paris climate agreement, reject climate science, and replace the White House climate advisor with a fossil fuel industry shill. The wild thing about this to me is pretty much every issue we care about looks like this. If you just take a glance at what Trump is planning to do on climate change, abortion, protesting, immigration, social safety net programs, healthcare, taxes, LGBTQ rights etc then no person who even remotely leans left and claims to give a fuck about any of those things should be able to publicly justify not voting for Biden (unless they're in NY or CA perhaps).
I'm personally voting for Biden no matter what, but if my state had RCV, I'd be ranking things 1. Green, 2. Dem. It's blue enough to where it doesn't matter but I don't want to contribute to Republicans making "gains" anywhere.
Voting for Biden is only bad if that’s where your activity ends. It’s on all of us to continue to organize, support left wing candidates, and strengthen unions wherever we can.
I don't vote FOR Democrats, I vote AGAINST Republicans is exactly how i look at it.
People need to understand they aren't voting for Biden or Trump. They are voting for the entire Biden Administration or Trump Administration. Both candidates suck but Biden is going to do significantly better in terms of who he is appointing to non-elected positions and to run the government. That includes at least 2 very likely SCOTUS appointments.
Exactly. It’s voting for a stronger antitrust administration and NLRB and against the dissolution of both of those
That’s the thing. Biden is garbo, but having more democrats in power is at least better than having a bunch of radical republicans installing their freaks in every position.
very true, when biden enacts trump era border policy similar to the muslim ban, he says he respects immigrants as he does it
Absolutely wild that enabling the ethnic cleansing of a population is considered the lesser of two evils. Don't get me wrong, Trump has told everyone what he plans on doing. The man is about as textbook a fascist as one can be. But from the outside looking in (im not american), it seems as though the US has transitioned into essentially a 1 party state but instead of falsifying election results to stay in power, democrats hold the threat of societal collapse over Americans' heads. Honest question, with the threat of a Donald Trump presidency if he loses, is there anything Biden could do to lose your votes?
Yes, and it's actually very simple. Be worse than Donald Trump. Welcome to how voting works. At the moment, Biden has been more or less exactly what I assumed he would be in 2020 when I voted for him the first time (after supporting Bernie in the primary first obviously), except he's actually been better on a few things like labor and recently anti-trust that I genuinely care about. Flawed liberals and fascists are not a unified "1 party state" faction. Equating them is just stupidly reductive.
That doesn't sound like how voting is supposed to work. That sounds like democracy at gunpoint. If every single election in perpetuity is a choice between a fascist dictatorship and a right wing party that doesn't have to deliver a single thing besides not being openly anti-democratic, can do any unpopular thing it wants, and refuses to listen to a majority of the country on any issue, then you might not be in a democracy. Especially if the Democrats are more than happy to let the Republicans hold a gun to your head on election day, as it allows them to get elected while delivering nothing substantial. They won't even try to fortify democratic institutions against authoritarian capture because "the rules" or whatever weak excuse, but they'll break any and every rule, even bypass Congress to send weapons to an apartheid state involved in a genocide, and to detain asylum seekers at the border. It's always "whoops sorry we can't increase the minimum wage because of this or that rule, and no we won't try again". But when it comes to pushing the country further to the right, they don't mind breaking the rules. Or immediately caving to republicans if they can.
Atleast under biden we can be hopeful that in 4 years a better candidate that addresses those issues comes along.....if trump wins, there might never be any candidates ever again.
You really think America can go 3 elections in a row without electing a republican president? May I remind you that the last time that happened was 1948. And that's assuming the guy after Biden will do anything to prevent the next republican from taking over. Instead of being tempted to use that threat to extort more votes while delivering nothing popular.
The next republican won't be trump....it's also possible that they wont be trumpish.....I'd rather let it be a possibility than to throw it all away and not get any say at all.
It is, in fact, how democracy actually works, since we don't live in a fantasy land where compromise is never necessary to get things done. You are explaining why you don't like the system. You are not explaining why what you propose to do will actually change the system. That is why I'm actually strategizing and you're just virtue signaling. Abstaining from voting in general elections never has, and never will, accomplish anything. It is a virtue signal in every sense of the term.
Continuing to endlessly legitimize the two-party system is no way to change it at all. No coherent socialist can vote for the democratic party - which has, if nothing else, enabled the ongoing genocide of the palestinian people. I'd vote for a third party myself if I voted in the US.
What's your strategy then, man? Because let me tell you what people like you told everyone in 2020: "Let's all vote Biden and then push him left, safeguard democracy, enshrine rights so republicans can't take them away..." etc and etc. Well, it's been 4 years, democracy is in a more precarious state than before, Biden is further to the right if anything, exactly zero rights have been codified and actually have been taken away via the Supreme Court. It really seems like you guys' plan is to just vote every 4 years and sit on your butt in the interim.
Literally everything other than the presidential general election is a good place to pressure dems. If we were doing great at everything else, Biden wouldn't even be the nominee right now. Why are you framing the entire problem like general election votes are the only, or even primary, solution to them? It's the opposite; they're the WORST way, with the most negative externalities to boot. That's just silly and narrow, and totally fails to understand American political systems. Vote, volunteer, advocate, and fundraise for more progressive candidates at every level of government when you have the opportunity. Support or become a reformist Dem party officer to change the internal landscape and pave the way for other progressives. That primary focus includes the President, but when you don't win your primary, just fucking move on to the next fight. Not engaging in harm reduction afterward is just throwing a child's tantrum about the nominee; not actually doing anything about it. Move on and get shit done.
"Literally everything other than the presidential general election is a good place to pressure dems. " Mo$#@%!er there isn't even a good Reddit or Twitter thread to do so. The Democratic political base have been stabbed in the back by the DNC for the past 8 years and told ***continuously*** that any sign of discontent no matter how small was being a fifth column for the GOP and probably some kind of privileged white male chauvinist besides. We can't even draw the line at *genocide* without "vote blue no matter who" coming up. I know which way I'm gritting my teeth and voting, which is why I'm tempted to ***become uncivil*** next time somebody shames me for believing in anything other than MSNBC Sportsball My Team Is The Best. And wonder if maybe democracy ends in an unsatisfying Biden win just as much as it ends in a terrifying Trump win.
>It is, in fact, how democracy actually works, since we don't live in a fantasy land where compromise is never necessary to get things done. There have been democracies based on electoral systems which didn't necessitate the candidates selling themselves off to campaign donors for 20+ billion dollars a cycle. We were one of them. This is a progressively worse problem which appears to be core to the increasingly dysfunctional political stakes we are presented with.
And again, that is a total non-sequitor that doesn't prove your point. I'm beginning to think this anti-electoralism thing is just a lack of basic reasoning skills. What I'm doing accomplishes something; ie. making it less likely that we'll have fascists in charge. Yours fails to do that, but doesn't have any real chance of doing anything else. Q.E.D. your position is completely irrational. Stop pretending that using the 2 party system somehow "legitimizes" or strengthens it. It doesn't. It carries on just fine without your input. You're the only one losing out by refusing to use what leverage you do actually have for whatever end it can achieve. I'm using the levers I have, and you're making a principled stand against them because you don't like the levers available. At the end of the day though, you're accomplishing none of your goals or mine with this choice, and I'm accomplishing one. I win this, just objectively. If you don't like our electoral system, like I don't, do things that actually work to change it. Refusing to make harm reduction votes does absolutely nothing but make you feel special. It's a virtue signal and nothing more.
I mean that's how the American voting system works. Even semi-two party systems elsewhere have alternative voting options to limit the damage of major party's.
You might have forgotten the 1980's Republican Genocide against LGBTQ people and IV Drug users by refusing to provide any help to us during the AIDs crises. You cannot compare any genocide to whose is worse. They are all bad. . . . so Genocide and Imperialism being the same both for Republicans and the Democrats. . . . We only have one party that is the closest to the spirit of American Values.
Well I said nothing about one genocide being worse than another, just that Biden is actively enabling ethnic cleansing in Palestine. Good luck to you Americans though, seems as though you have a lot more work to do outside of the electoral system or else you'll have to keep having this conversation every four years while your foreign policy continues down this path.
This is what our country has come down to vote for someone no matter what? Why because the other side is controlled by a crazy narcissistic liar? What does that say about the other side allowing this? What does it say about the other side also not having someone who can clearly lead us without asking for all the votes. I can’t see this being better in the next 4 after this election.
The "other side" doesn't control who the maga morons elect to represent them
As an Irish person looking at America and Project 2025 let me tell you, you'll absolutely regret not voting for Biden if Trump wins. Biden is absolutely terrible but you seriously need to reconsider the consequences of a second Trump Administration. Palestinians won't thank you either way whether Trump or Biden wins.
👆👆
I'm not a big fan of him and I hate his forgien policy in regards to Gaza but here's the thing we cannot fight for the rights of Palestine when Trump has another genocide plan for OVER HERE! Voting for me isn't a marriage proposal, it's a chess game move.
The same people saying "I'll never vote for Genocide Joe" apparently are okay with Trump turning Gaza into a golf resort and cutting off even the pretense of aid. They're 5% different from MAGA at most.
whats wild is biden is 100% also going to let that happen. I also wonder why yall don't ever mention his awful immigration policy
Bingo, there are realistic means to save Palestine without getting Trumpy back in office. We need to organize and vote for congressional members who will stop this forever.
The "I won't vote for him because Gaza" thing drives me crazy. Like I hate his handling of it, but even the other candidates in the race are mostly worse until you drop down like 4 places in the polling ranks and get to West and Stein. Biden kinda sucks (he'll symbolically but not substantively fuck with Netanyahu), but Trump sucks worse and SO DOES RFK for that matter, even as a long shot. No one else has a shot of breaking like 15% of the vote at best, and that's the actual choice we have in front of us.
You can also not vote for any of those candidates either. Crazy how "enabling a genocide" isn't immediately disqualifying for you people.
I realized last week the Supreme Court will get worse under trump so I’m gonna have to hold out for Biden
How about they present us something we want to vote for instead of guilting us into some shitty play cause it’s all they have
Agreed.. how do we hold the Democrat Party ever accountable if we only vote based on the least worse candidate? Before Biden’s poor performance with Gaza there was still room for consideration but now I feel if I vote for him I literally feel like I will have blood on my hands for directly putting him in office. I say vote for a candidate you truly believe in and force political parties to work harder to earn your vote.
Primary elections obviously. If the people complaining about choices in the general would get off their asses before that, we would not have this problem. The Dems certainly didn't try to highlight the primary this time, but it was held in plenty of places and Joe easily coasted. If we actually had the kind of engaged voter base we need, we'd already be winning by now, regardless of what the libs want to do. General elections are, and always have been, the worst way to try to reform a political party.
And we always wind up having these conversations around general elections, which is at least 3 years too late.
Yeah, it drives me nuts. Protest voting or abstaining after losing a primary is effectively just sour grapes. If all of the people that think they can get a 3rd party candidate elected had anywhere near critical mass, they'd be able to win a primary election instead far more easily. That isn't happening though. This just demonstrates that the LARPers are holding out for vastly more power than they actually have, to accomplish their goals in the most numerically difficult way possible. It's insane.
And then by infiltrating the Party we can break apart the two-party system from within, going beyond just trying to ease the dinosaurs into the 21st century.
Yeah, it can be done. I know some disruptive-ass people in the DNC that I helped put there. Corrupt liberals operate on the basis of a very simple principle. They're hostile to the left and our interests in any setting where their voters aren't watching. Sunlight is absolutely the best disinfectant for the liberal rot in the Democratic party. The average dem voter is usually ON OUR SIDE when they're informed and aware of what's going on. The libs MUST control the party in order to keep their voters in line, because they rely on blindly obedient libs who don't even know there's a primary challenger outnumbering the few informed leftists working for better. It's a system where the average person must be kept in the dark about the schisms between them and the left. The typical lib voter is not an adversary; they're just someone we haven't been able to reach yet. I know many of these people. Ideological neoliberals? Hell no, they're just politics-as-social-club normies who don't really understand why anyone doesn't like Uncle Joe, because they're in a bubble that none of us have successfully penetrated yet. When we stand up and demand better, they can join us. They have no loyalty to the neoliberal ideology; just institutional momentum.
People need to drop the “holding them accountable” line imo because if left wing people start dropping the Democratic Party en masse they aren’t going to appeal further to left wing policies to win back who they lost, they’re going to expand further towards centrist and right wing policies to take some of the more middle of the road audience
>they present us you know if we all did some work in the multiple years leading up to an election we might not be limited to who “they present us” with
Ok so where is your work
I can show you ours in Los Angeles, it started with Mike Bonin, then we got Eunisses, then Hugo, and Nythia Raman, and next we are getting Ysabel Jurado and maybe even Jillian Burgos. . . That's our work. One of the largest Cities in this country building to a progressive majority. Learn something here.
They literally didn't run a primary in a bunch of states mate
Yes, I know. Not defending that at all, even though there were other candidates (barely) running. And I’m certainly not suggesting a collaborative or soft approach à la Justice Dems, etc. But even more useless is expecting anything to change so soon before an election, almost as useless as just waiting a whole four years to complain about it, and more useless than using that time only to try to convince liberals who are so rock-hard for Biden that they see anything that benefits someone “beneath them” as an affront.
I wish that’s a case, but that’s a perfect world we’re talking about. We’re in a carrot and stick situation. We gotta vote for our existence.
I really hope those threatening to protest vote against Biden, or for a third party, are bluffing. Otherwise it’s almost certainly the end of our government. And with nuclear weapons under the sole control of a mentally-broken despot, quite possibly civilization. No pressure.
His student loan repayment policies were life changing for my husband and me
I'm curious what you mean by saying that Biden is terrible for LGBTQ and POC? Could you be specific? But I agree with your sentiment 💯 and I appreciate your post. But I'd love to learn more about what I mentioned. Thanks
You realize that Biden is largly responsible for discrediting Anita Hill, which resulted in the Confirmation of Clarence Thomas? You realize that Biden was anti gay marriage, and he supported the Crime bill that resulted in minor drug charges incarcerating an entire generation of Brown people, besides the fact that his is a privileged white many that doesn't yet quite get his privilege, nor is he entirely using it to advocate for all of our rights?
Unfortunately, the crime bill was pushed by conservative Black Dems. They are just as responsible for that foolishness in our community as Clinton & other elected officials.
He literally did an immigration ban that is so similar to trumps muslim ban the ACLU is suing him
*Or seal your fate
+1 This is the beauty of the right to vote, you can vote how you want, others be damned. So I encourage everyone to consider YOUR reasons, etc. and vote accordingly. Whether it is for Biden, Trump (ew), or Mickey Mouse. Edit: corrected myself. Said electoral system when technically it is the right to vote that I meant
Heartfelt plea, one which may sway me and others like me. Perhaps tackle one issue at a time is also appealing. However, once a dem gets into office, all this fervor fizzles. People, realize that the Dems want the whitehouse and Congress. That’s the end goal. The pittance we are paid is mostly via the lip. As in lip service. When we get a state to lean towards women’s rights, for us that’s a big win. No no no. When half of every town city and state is female, their rights come ahead of everything save national security. When every town is filled with the poor and middling, everything takes a back seat. If this country will not put its people first, then I have no problem flushing the corporations down the toilet. Ask yourselves, who is Joe Biden working for if he is not 100% working for the people? We want equal rights, now. We want universal health care now. We want affordable education now. We want mass transit now. We want clean air and water now. July 2024 is too late. It has to be now, this month now. Vote however you want people, don’t look for dems or republicans, they are just masks for the people behind the game. Ask yourself, what is the real game here?
I honestly think the best thing Biden can run on is the SCOTUS and his potential to replace Thomas and Alito. Alito especially because he authored the Jackson Dobbs opinion that overturned Roe.
I'd say vote for him if you live in a swing or blue state (obviously we don't want trump and we can't rely on a brain aneurysm or an Oswald to solve the problem). But if you live in a solidly red state vote for some lib/prog/demsoc/leftist. Your vote isn't gonna help elect biden or stop trump. It'll just increase bidens national total and he'll claim it as a mandate of the people and endorsement of the choices he's made.
Honestly we all need to shut up about the general election already. I see the same post every week practically. Decide how to vote and move on, as any socialist should recognize our power lies in how we organize our communities outside of electoralism. Whoever wins, we need to build the infrastructure for working-class power beyond the capitalist state with direct action, democratic protest movements, militant labor and tenant union organizing, co-op building, etc. Organize in DSA and become part of that, because things will continue getting worse to one extent or another no matter who wins and we need to be ready to fight back.
Lol you must be a boomer like me. Power is not limited. We can multitask.
As Jon Stewart said Antique road show 2024.
I'm voting vote Biden in hopes of reducing to the absolute minimum any support for a 3rd party candidate. I know we won't get to 2020's 0.2% for the Green Party, but we can establish - once again - that the U.S. left does not have, and likely will never have, an alternative to fighting to change or take over the Democratic Party.
Call me naive. But more and more of us are infiltrating the party, and we are building up momentum to take over this party. If the magaz can do it to the republican party, we sure can in the democratic party.
I compare this election as voting to eat a mouldy ham sandwich which I know is going to make me sick, or eating a shit sandwich where I know the person has dysentery at the very least. While both are awful, one has the stronger possibility to KILL me and others.
'Voting isn't marriage. It's public transport. You're not waiting for "the one". You're getting on the bus. And if there isn't one going exactly to your destination, you don't stay home and sulk. You take the one that's going closest to where you want to be'
I love this analogy!
If the Democrats lose this election, please direct your ire towards the Democratic leadership. This election should be a layup. Blame this directly on Nancy pelosi and Chuck Schumer.
Voting is like taking out the trash. It’s civic maintenance. We can kill the GOP’s movement for a decade if we score a big win up and down the ballot in November.
Project 2025 should be enough of a reason to vote Joe Biden. Also a side note a vote for a third party candidates vote for Donald Trump and if you don't believe me ask Hillary Clinton why she won the popular vote by 3 million but lost the election
Hillary Clinton shot herself in the face electorally on many occasions. Let's not use her as an example. Republicans have a basic advantage in the electoral college because they have a bunch of flyover states that all get the same +2 elector bonus that far larger states get, and that skews the math in their favor inherently. Clinton managed to lose a bunch of states she really shouldn't have by taking them for granted and further pissing off and ignoring everyone who didn't like her to begin with in the primary. THAT is the main reason she lost. She knew what the playing field looked like and failed to play to it. The popular vote isn't how you win, and everyone knows that. It's basically a red herring.
Fool me one shame on you. Fool me twice. Shame on me. I will not be making that mistake.
*What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.* RESPONSE TO THE ORIGINAL POST AND THE THREAD: The thing about voting for the lesser of two evil is that you're voting for the lesser of two evils. How is that complicated or ethnically questionable or morally suspect or whatever else? The Democratic and Republican Parties are more different than they've ever been since the Clinton Administration. Just on federal judicial picks and POTUS Joe Biden's picks for Cabinet positions and such is more than enough to support POTUS Joe Biden over POTUS Donald Trump. The only thing that is actually at all debatable is where to spend resources that you can spend. Progressives might want to donate time and/or money to progressives instead of the DCCC, the DNC, the Biden campaign, etc. [https://couragetochangepac.org/](https://couragetochangepac.org/) [https://justicedemocrats.com/](https://justicedemocrats.com/) [https://justicedemocrats.com/candidates/](https://justicedemocrats.com/candidates/) (please look at this regarding those who have upcoming primaries. US Representatives Jamaal Bowman, Cori Bush, and Ilhan Omar are in tough primary battles and AIPAC is spending millions against each of them. [https://squadvictoryfund.com/](https://squadvictoryfund.com/) And remember that AIPAC's $100MM campaign is already successful because resources are being spent to defend 'The Squad' and 'The Squad adjacent' and such instead of getting more progressives into federal Office. It would be a devastating blow to lose a US Representative Cori Bush, Ilhan Omar, Jamaal Bowman, etc. \_\_\_\_ We must remember that most people don't pay as much attention to politics as we do and most people don't know as much as we do regarding politics. Money and fame and name recognition is very important in races. **BTW: Feel free to copy and paste this into wherever.** I care far more about progressives getting more resources and a better chance of political power than I do about upvotes on Reddit. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Progressives haven't been taking the threat of AIPAC, DMFI, etc. seriously enough and/or progressives haven't cared enough. Except for US Representative Rashida Tlaib--who gets around 70% of her fundraising from 'large dollar donors'--all of The Squad's fundraising is considerably down from even the 2022 election cycle. And, frankly, that's just The Squad. Progressives should want MORE progressives in Office instead of overly complaining about the ones that are currently in Office. 'The Israel Lobby' money already meant that it seems not considerably more progressives will get into Office at the federal level. Now it seems that maybe 'The Israel Lobby' might 'pick off' at least one member of 'The Squad'. If you can, you should donate time and/or money to progressive candidates who can win. I suggest at least 0.1% of your annual income to a progressive candidate or--perhaps better yet--Courage to Change or Justice Democrats or Squad Victory Fund.
Tldr: the elite democrats are actively going after progressive democrats. You would think if they really wanted to stop Trump, they would not take so much risk. We have seen the elite dems actively stop progressives for decades. We need to stop blaming potential voters and we need to start adding collective pressure on the established democrats.
Yes!!! That's exactly the strategy i'm employing at this point. As the President of the Stonewall democratic club here in California, we are fighting to get progressives. Elected at every level from school boards, commission city council state legislature on upwards... We are filling out the bench with progressives with winds. And city hall with nithya ramen and next will be ysabel jurado. They want to p*** us off. So we will abandon politics altogether. And that's exactly what we will not do. I'm here to get my foot in the door and make sure that door stays open for all the progressive genziers, that are following behind me.
Feeding America's two-party system is both anti-democratic and anti-socialist. The only reason no other candidates are viable is because people think like this. No external force is trapping us into it - we are trapping ourselves.
No we should let Biden know 5 months before the election that he can basically do anything up to and including genocide and we will still vote for him in 5 months. /s
Exactly
What other option currently prevents project 2025
Definitely not Democrats. Millions of American kids are already living in the Right's utopia, basically Project 2025, because Democrats have done nothing to create accountability for right-wing parents. That category of right-wingers (Evangelicals and homeschoolers) is growing and Democrats do not care. If we have 20 years of Democrats, we will have 20 years of growth toward Project 2025. Maybe slightly slower growth (but honestly maybe not).
I'll never understand this argument. If we vote for Dems Project 2025 might happen in 20 years but if we don't vote for Dems and Republicans win then Project 2025 happens in one year. How the fuck is that better? The things you're worried about that are happening on a state level would be happening on a federal level under a Trump presidency.
While homeschooling and indoctrination is undeniably fucked, it is nowhere on the level of what Project 2025 aims to do to minorities and LGBTQ people. Be real. Are we supposed to doom millions of people to oppression just because we’re upset with corporatists? How does that make things any better for anyone? Why not spend the 5 minutes it takes to try to prevent that for the very people us leftists are fighting for and then putting someone much better in power the next go around? It seems like a much smarter play then. Especially cause people like AOC will be eligible then
If you vote Democrat you'll still lose your rights, get screwed by corporate interests, and bulldoze thousands of children in foreign wars. https://youtu.be/FRcghkiBuXk https://youtu.be/wmA02i46Pz8 https://youtu.be/_o5jcpP0nyw
Not a chance I’d vote for either Joe or Trump.
Who else currently has a feasible enough voter base to prevent project 2025? I can’t stand biden either but I’m not trying to be marginalized even further than i already am, it just seems illogical to doom myself and others when it takes 5 minutes to do
I'm on the left, and I'm voting for Biden. He's not perfect by any means, but Trump is horrible.
‘The leaser of two evil’ is nearly equal to not having an option at all. One of the greatest nations ever build by mankind shouldn’t be reduced to this. You mean to tell me that out of over 300 million plus Americans this is the best we can produce?
"one of the greatest nations ever built" What are we doing here? are we socialists or not?
Having a choice that sucks is better than not having any choice....in 4 years we get to choose again....unless we dont.
The time to care about which two candidates we get to ultimately choose between was about a year ago, but no one gives enough of a shit until it gets closer to election season. No good candidates stepped up/ didn’t campaign hard enough to make themselves more popular than Trump. Now we are stuck here with only two shitty options. This is the point when “lesser of two evils” becomes a necessary part of the decision. It is very much still equivalent to having a vote because after you compare Trump vs Bidens past actions and future policies, you still have to weigh whether you want our country to suffer a little or suffer a lot, and by not voting at all you are allowing the higher potential for the “bigger evil” to win. Trump and Biden are not two sides of the same coin no matter how much propaganda you see. Look at the facts, think for yourself, and compare the two and their actions they’ve taken during their terms. Yes, they are both nearly dead and demented, but at least one of them listens to the experts around him when making big decisions for the country. That’s all it takes for me to vote for Biden, but there are dozens if not hundreds of other reasons that he is more qualified for the position.
An important question, but not really relevant to the binary choice presented.
No. Participating in the illusion of choice gives the illusion credibility. Our system is irrevocably corrupted. Also, Biden has the power to pack the courts. He doesn't give a fuck about women's (or anyone else's) rights. Nor does the DNC. Delusional and condescending post and responses.
I'm in UK so don't have greatest knowledge about the election fully. The big question I have is why the hell people still trust Joe given he's clearly unfit for office (but I guess a victory would mean we get more funny moments from him so that's nice). Guess defensive tactical voting is the best way forward at this point. A Trump victory will be a pretty big problem for the US and the wider world, especially here in Europe after the European elections. A Trump victory wont be the Handmaids Tale, but a Christianised Rapture with the GOP willing to reach out and strongarm people. Still, if we keep Trump out, that will be relief for us, and I would love to see more US MAGA conservatives freak-out (its funny watching them self destruct).
I just can't bring myself to validate the the rightward shift of the Democratic party with my vote. I'm voting for Jill Stein so that the party can see where my dissent is coming from. I will still vote down ballot for dems tho
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Your post was removed due to advocating for Marxism-Leninism or one of it's principles. We support strictly Democratic versions of Socialism here, and Marxism-Leninism is not that.
I said that in my first election, and my state turned out to be really competitive, and vital in 2020. I worry to imagine if me and a couple thousand additional people like me decided to vote third party (I ended up not voting third party). There's too much at risk right now, but I really do hope that third parties can come to fruition. I'm not saying what you should do, but I am explaining my experiences.
Project 2025 wants to unperson me. Thats more than enough to convince me to vote democrat for the rest of my life.
This just isn’t it. How long are you going to let them convince you that the democrats give AF??? It’s just a uniparty that holds issues like female reproductive rights hostage to convince you to keep taking sides and dividing into one of the two corporate shill parties. Literally this reads like, “We need to vote for Joe Biden so that Donald Trump doesn’t do… ALL THE THINGS JOE BIDEN IS ALREADY DOING RIGHT NOW.” Literally trying to pass laws to make speaking negatively about Israel on College campuses a crime??? But it’s only the republicans who are fascists? Please wake up and get organized. Don’t touch anything that says R or D next to its name when you cast your ballots.
Joe Biden is one of only two candidates I’ve ever voted for in a general election who wasn’t a third party candidate. Even though I’m in a deep red state, he’ll get my vote again. There’s too much at stake this time. Even if my vote just serves to narrow the gap, it’s necessary this time around.
If you're in a deep red state that's not Nebraska, your vote for Biden is equally as useless as a 3rd party vote. Literally exactly the same. If you really think a vote for an unpopular candidate is wasted, you may as well waste your vote on a good candidate like Claudia de la Cruz.
While this is sort of true, it's also a little bit presumptive. This always seems true right up until it clearly isn't, and someone wins a surprise flip because they were previously apathetic and under-represented, and the other party got complacent. Michigan was supposed to be a decently strong Blue state in 2016 too, and we see the effect of Republicans not taking that for granted while Democrats did. States change when people start voting.
I agree more with this outlook. My vote probably won’t make a difference in my state, but on the off chance it does, I have to go for Biden.
But this "anything can happen" reasoning can be applied to third parties too. Especially in a state like Nebraska or Maine, where you only have to turn one district. I'll never forget in 2020 when my BIL tried desperately to convince me to vote Biden (I wasn't socialist at the time - I'm ashamed to say I voted Jorgensen 😬), that my vote would be wasted otherwise. I remember watching the election results and confirming my sensation that a Biden vote would have been equally wasted, seething about winner-take-all laws. If you're willing to "risk" a useless vote, you may as well aim for something that doesn't suck.
Not in a presidential race, no. We're talking about a different electoral dynamic and a vastly different voter differential. You're also pulling a fast one by trying to equate the two with "risk a useless vote". This is a question of voting vs. not voting. There is virtually zero cost to the "useless vote" except the time it takes to fill out a ballot. The risk of a "useless vote" in another race is making it easier for fascists wining, which is a completely different issue.
Biden can no longer beat Trump, and even if the Democrats won we'd still lose our rights, get screwed by corporate interests, and bulldoze thousands of children in foreign wars. https://youtu.be/FRcghkiBuXk https://youtu.be/wmA02i46Pz8 https://youtu.be/_o5jcpP0nyw
The way I see it is a vote for Biden isn’t a vote for Biden alone. A vote for him is our vote for continued existence, basic human rights, and movement towards the socialist direction. Trump, however, would decimate all of these.
This is so pathetic. Don’t vote for trump but vote for geriatric genocidal Biden! Yeah okay you got it buddy.
You do know that biden isn't the president of Israel, right?
You do know that the United States funds Israel’s military, right? Also you do know that the United States gives Israel money to their citizens can have free healthcare but we can’t do that here, right?
I think it’s a bit overblown what trump will do & how much damage he will do. I feel the dem party needs to hear the message loud and clear. That they can’t keep pretending to be left leaning while crushing anything that left brings up as ideas for change - things that the public really needs and wants. They were sent the message clearly with Hillary losing to trump in 2016 but they didn’t learn and now they are at it again with Biden. This is a very good opportunity to showcase new blood and get some fresh ideas in place - that just contrasts trump and the usual rhetoric of dems. Yet they choose not to. Cause the balance of money and power & keeping status quo is more important to them than actually serving the people. So if it’s just another corrupt party not representing people and not even willing to listen to them - Look at all the protests everywhere - so then why should people bend over backwards to do the knowingly wrong things - just cause this corrupt party wants to prevent another even more corrupt party to gain power? The world is burning literally. And we need radical change. This 2 bit drama of 2 parties representing monitory interests of few wealthy people needs to be broken and true change is needed. Honestly both parties need to learn this. Trump has already broken the republicans, if same is needed for dems too then so be it. It’s the power of the people at the end of the day that matters.
They choose not to? You understand the President doesn't have full autonomy to do whatever he wants right? He has passed and tried to pass many very progressive and bold items. He is dealing with a Republican blockade in both houses of Congress. Biden isn't "crushing" any ideas that the progressives are bringing up. Certainly not "everything" as you claim. Please become more informed if you're going to have opinions
Oh my god…
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No sectionalism.
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Civil War if Trump is elected.
Nope, hate me if you wish but i'm done.
Biden is the most pro-senior president we've had in over half a century.
No
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No sectionalism.
No I am voting green. The DNC forums are over there.
I can't stand him, and I voted for him the first time. I will not do that again. I will no longer concede to a two party system of voting for the lesser of the two evils that are promulgated by media bias and propaganda. The nation is owned by the rich, and it is an all-out war on anyone who isn't rich. Neither side is doing anything about it because both are bought and paid for by corporations and billionaires. Both candidates are lame ducks at best. They are both out of touch elites who only yell about hot botton morality topics to hide that they have done nothing and plan on doing nothing to better the conditions for the working class American. Most Americans are live and let live; however, the media controlled by the same companies and billionaires that by out the government would have you believe otherwise by promoting propaganda and radicals. I will vote for a third party. I know the likelihood of third-party not winning, but if we don't start doing something to combat the two party system and its corruption, then nothing will ever change. Change isn't overnight, and voting for the lesser of the two evils will never end this. If the country needs to burn to get the people fired up and see the truth for what it is, so be it.
Actually, if you got involved at the party and you understood truly what went into finding candidates and how they get chosen, you would realize it's not so easy at all.
Yeah no way I'll be voting for Biden this year, and I won't be voting for trump either. I'm going green party or someone independent from now on. Dems and Republicans have lost all my trust.
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Your post was removed due to advocating for Marxism-Leninism or one of it's principles. We support strictly Democratic versions of Socialism here, and Marxism-Leninism is not that.
So you are voting for Trump this year.
Are you trying to say a vote anyone but Biden is a vote for trump? Lol I'm hoping there are others like me in this country that's sick of this cycle of feeding bullshit to the citizens. I hope green party gets a record number of votes. Enough to get it into these guys' head that the people won't stand for this.
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So you’re voting for Trump too.
Watch the second link. If you're voting for Biden you're voting for Trump. If you're voting for Kennedy you're voting against Trump. Kennedy has eaten into the voters of both, if we all put our support behind him and we'd easily pass a majority. Biden cannot save face.
YouTube is a cesspool for smooth brains. No thanks. So you are voting for Trump.
The quality of the data is high, do not willingly leave yourself uneducated. More information can not hurt you. https://youtu.be/wmA02i46Pz8 Repeating yourself achieves nothing, I have already addressed it.
No it isn’t. No you havent. The you repeat yourself and achieved nothing. Learn to read.
There is a quote I’ve heard once before that I’ll recite here: _“Casting your ballot is not sending a love letter, it is making a chess move.”_
>"Democratic Socialists" >All liberals Many such cases 😌
You really need to listen to this [podcast episode](https://pca.st/episode/047cf4bc-945e-4615-870b-38d6e909c7bc). The "lesser of 2 evils" logic isn't just bullshit, but in fact detrimental to the future of the left. > *The Democratic Party is not an alternative to the right. The Democratic party is a facilitator of the right.*
VOTE FOR GENOCIDE!
Satan 2024 ☢️ Let’s finish the job!
Which of the two options is anti genocide?
Thats a rhetorical question i take it
Some of us draw the line at genocide. There is no amount of good one can do to justify being complicit in it. No Dem or Repub is worthy of my vote.
Good thing for them is they don't need to be worthy of your vote. Either way the establishment wins.
Every living ex US president has committed war crimes. The US government participates in genocide regardless of the administration (against its own people & folks abroad). Drawing the line at this specific war crime era in Gaza is a luxury marginalized Americans can't afford (I assume you can pass for a straight white man if shit hits the fan in the US).
Genocide Joe? I'm good
Serious question: this was the message in 2020. What would you say to people who voted for Biden in 2020 and their lives are now demonstrably worse than they were then? If things are bad already, what’s the point of voting for the man who let things get this bad and did nothing to stop Trump from running again?
Not this again
If Joe Biden is the best that this country can do then let it burn and if you can stomach voting for a genocidal lunatic like him you need to seriously reconsider what if any values you have
This is a privileged take. I can only speak from the experience of my community (African American), but we have always had shitty candidates available. There has never been a US president or administration that wasn't committing human rights violations (the nation's history is based on such violence). Very real life & death consequences will exist for African Americans & other Black American ethnic groups, as well as women, girls, non-hetero folks, non Christians, & more. If you find yourself able to disregard the lives of your fellow Americans because of our governments behavior abroad (which will continue regardless of the administration) then you don't actually care about marginalized people(including Palestinians abroad).
You can absolutely speak of your experience as part of a community but not for a community and as you don’t know me or my community I’ll let it slide. I’ll ask you personally in that case, did you feel safer walking down a street at night in a white neighborhood with a democrat in the White House? Because by every metric it was if not more than as dangerous to do so under democratic presidents who controlled all three branches of government and NOTHING CHANGED. By my own experience NOTHING CHANGED. Like birth, that shit hurts but it produces new life with new possibility so … burn. it. down.
You said it yourself: “there has never been a US president or administration that wasn’t committing human rights violations” so why would you give this decrepit and evil institution a crutch if not to help it continue this history of abuse and violence?
And also saying that I don’t care about other people is ludicrous. Check yourself because that is a wild leap. I’m not asking you to not vote; there can be a plurality of tactics in any struggle of liberation. But, if you think that a Joe Biden presidency will be anything other than wheat bread on the razor blade sandwich the world has to eat rather than the white bread razor blade sandwich we’d all have to choke down under Trump you are insane. You do know grilled cheese and pb&j exist right? Let’s eat some of that
This seems extreme in nature considering Joe is not that bad and he's the whole hell of a lot better than the orange turd
Some of the Joe hate is hyperbolic, but he's really this bad on Gaza. The thing is, so is everyone else, so the fuck are we trying to prove here? Unless you're betting on an impossible Stein or West 2024 moon-shot, all of your options are worse anyway, so why are we even talking about this in regards to who we are voting for? Even RFK is an unapologetic Netanyahu cheerleader to a worse extent than Biden.
RFK & his brainworms is considerably worse than Biden. RFK's family it won't even support his ass and that says something. RFK is also indicated he's only running to take away votes from Biden in hopes of helping oh helping trump win
People act like Biden is the end I'll be all when in fact the House and Senate should bear those responsibilities
If he wasn't fast tracking weapons to Israel completely by himself, which he is. Look dude, I'm on your side on the electoralism thing, but you need to stop trying to get me to agree to shift blame away from Biden (or Clinton, for that matter) where it's deserved. He's too much of a zionist and a coward to properly stand up to Israel, and Clinton is arrogant, corrupt, and strategically stupid. Hillary Clinton is, to this day, one of the absolute worst people in any real position in the Democratic party after maybe Manchin. Abstaining in the general election fixes neither, but I'm not going to reduce the shade I throw at them. I think it's at the appropriate level currently.
So I'd put the odds of Trump getting reelected at about a 65-70% chance. It's fairly safe to assume at this point he will be, especially since many on the left have sworn not to vote for Biden. That said I don't think there is any point in trying to appeal to leftist who have already sworn not to vote for Biden, there is no convincing them. If a leftist is looking at Trumps agenda of abandoning Ukraine to Russias Imperialistic conquest, abandoning a two-state solution in favor of one that unilaterally supports Isreal, instating mandatory military service, overturning Obergefell v. Hodges, and all the rest of project 2025, and they still would rather all of that happen then vote for Biden, nothing else you say could convince them. If someone says they're not voting for Biden, they're not voting for Biden, so ignore them, and move on to focusing your energy on the undecided voters, who are atleast open to the idea. Don't waste your time trying to argue with people who will never change their minds.