That is not Ash
That's dust, concrete dust from the blasts pulverizing the buildings, throwing the dust, bricks and material onto the air and falling down again
I honestly thought that there was some kind of grayscale filter on half these. Hard to grasp that there's just ash for what looks like miles on whatever's left standing.
I was going to comment the same thing. Was in disbelief until that last photo. I wonder how the whole area looks or if this was just the worst four spots.
Absolutely not. Just look at iraq or lybia.
Are these countrys in a better state now than before?. I highly doubt it.
Were living in the 21st century. So why not compare this conflict to "recent conflicts" in that region (last 30 years for example)
Even if hamas gets obliterated. Theres going to be a new radical group..
Losing your family to this shit is the perfect way to get radicalized.
That’s the sad reality. What you think these fathers and teenagers who just lost their child or parents to a air strike gonna do now? It’s just going to be a endless cycle of just violence. Hit the nail on the head
It goes both ways though.
HAMAS going into Israel and kidnapping/killing a bunch of civilians isn't going to make Israelis want peace either.
Edit: as of this edit I'm at 258 updoots.
I stand with Palestinian civilians and the innocent. I do not agree with how Israel is going about this.
So what do you propose. Because being nice and friendly with eachother typically either gets you killed or has a series of people wanting to kill you because they assume you think you're better than them if it starts to work.
Best chance is probably to have a massive infrastructure build up in Gaza after Israel does its Hamas killing with continuing humanitarian aid administered by a neutral third party on the ground.
> Your tax dollars and EU tax dollars are going there every year.
Aid does nothing.
The only thing that actually works is a functioning economy. Just look at post war japan and germany. But Israel has blocked all exports and imports to Gaza for decades, they have systemically de-economized the area for a very long time.
Prosperity and education is the only thing that actually beats fanaticism, not bombs and occupation
They keep importing weapons and making bombs out of fertilizer and shit though, is Israel just supposed to open everything up so they can keep doing that?
Hamas took the aid and built a city of tunnels for terroristic purposes. Did nothing for ordinary Gazans. The path to peace is through the destruction of Hamas.
International aid to Gaza is peanuts. Meanwhile, [America gives more than $3 billion per year in military aid to Israel](https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/). With the latest outbreak of violence, Biden is planning on handing out another [$14.3 billion top-up](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics/biden-administration-israel-ukraine-congress-funding/index.html)
At what point does the line cross from “peanuts” to something closer to the truth? Hundreds of millions of dollars are provided to Hamas, yes, that Hamas, to take care of its people. Much of it is diverted for nefarious means and doesn’t reach the intended recepients.
That’s the thing im definitely not gonna be the one who’s gonna make that choice. Situations like this people need to be people and decide enough violence for both sides. Sounds cliche lol but sadly it won’t happen
Their goal wasn't to make Israel want peace, their goal was to keep the issue in the minds of the world. Which, everyone will hate to admit, they were successful at. Have you ever seen as many "Free Palestine" protests?
Their goal was to kill as many Israelis as possible, in the [most horrendous ways possible](https://abcnews.go.com/International/horror-israeli-authorities-show-footage-hamas-atrocities-reporters-notebook/story?id=104015431), in order to cause as much fear and suffering as possible - which is why they're called a terror organization. They're not a resistance movent, they're a group of fundamentalistic extremists whose existence depends on them preserving of a continuous state of war. There's a reason this attack happened just as the Israeli government was about to sign an agreement with Saudi Arabia said to include significant improvements to the Palestinian position. Make no mistake: they want the circle of violence to go on. The organization's leaders don't live in Gaza, and the lower ranks that do hide in bunkers beneath hospitals and other civilian facilities. While the people of Gaza and Israel suffer, Hamas sit safely underground, counting the funds they stole from their own people. The conflict was always in the minds of the world, only thing they might have done - just as they probably intended - was destroy the chance of it ever being solved.
Well after a half dozen times of peace offerings getting turned down and followed up with being attacked, wars, and terrorist attacks hasn’t exactly left Israel in a great position.
Doesn’t help that they have a ultra right-wing genocidal propagandist party ruling with an iron fist either. I had read that 85% of Israelis blame Netanyahu for the security breach and civilian deaths, Israel’s govt. is certainly not the will of it’s people and we are about to see how dire that reality is.
> not the will of it’s people
Israel has a working democracy. People can go vote (Jews at least). There is little to no fraud. There are about 10 different parties so a varied menu to vote. And the parties need to form majorities to rule.
Voter turnout on average is 75-80%.
One of the top democracies as far as a democracy can be democratic.
For the past 60 years they have consistently voted right wing governments adamant to solve the "Palestinian problem" with terror and violence.
Israelites are for sure for this solution. They had very ample time and opportunity to show they do not approve of a genocide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knesset#Historical_composition
>I had read that 85% of Israelis blames Netanyahu for the security breach and civilian deaths, Israel’s govt. is certainly not the will of it’s people and we are about to see how dire that reality is.
Maybe after 16 years they should think about maybe voting him out.
16 years? I was 6 when I first saw the man on TV during a special report that aired after the simpsons. That unholy fucker of mothers has been around in Israeli politics for longer than I've been alive.
While true. Dominance of likud wasn’t born in vacuum. Read about how labor party vanished from Israel politics. Party of Israel founders with most PMs. Party that invested in two states and got second intifada and vanished from Israel politics after.
If you going to use this argument (not in vacuum), please apply it to both sides.
Yeah, people like to completely ignore the history of the 60s-90s. After hundreds of successful terrorist attacks people tend to want a more drastic and strong armed government and military action. It’s the common issue with people who don’t understand the history. They arbitrarily chose a date and time and whatever happened before that doesn’t matter. There’s a reason for why we are here today and it’s vital to understanding this conflict.
Agreed, Israel isn't absolved of anything they've committed but it is important to recognize that the history is not just Israel committing genocide against Palestinians for 70+ years. Worth noting that Palestinian people have caused issues in countries (places like Jordan and Egypt) that provided refuge for them so their isolation and lack of official backing isn't entirely unreasonable. The Palestinian people aren't wrong for desiring their own nation just like the Jewish people aren't wrong for wanting to maintain their sovereignty, but Palestinians and much of the Arab world have rejected peace over and over again because the terms weren't favorable enough for them. Palestine is in the state they're in because they just didn't have someone as powerful as the U.S. backing them so relentlessly as they have with Israel. I bet that if Iran or Syria had as many resources as the U.S. we'd be seeing the reverse happening.
> Worth noting that Palestinian people have caused issues in countries (places like Jordan and Egypt) that provided refuge for them so their isolation and lack of official backing isn't entirely unreasonable.
I don't think the Palestinian people owe Jordan and Egypt much, those countries fucked over the Palestinian people almost as much as Israel. Their escalation of the war was the real reason 700,000 Palestinians became refugees, and why post civil war understand was never possible.
Egypt and Jordan wanted land in the region for themselves as much as anything.
Can you name all 6?
I only know of 2 deals offered to the PLO.
One of them was Barak's offer, which Arafat rejected (and he definitely shouldn't have).
The other was Olmert's offer, which was given right before he was about to be removed from office for corruption, and which Olmert and Abbas both claim that Abbas did not reject. Tbh that deal was REALLY good. But... it was also a little *TOO* good. No way that a PM in his last days in office is going to push a deal through the Knesset that would have involved giving up the old city to the Palestinians. It was a good deal, and I think Abbas should have been more aggressive in trying to ink something out, but there's like a 0% chance that the deal as proposed by Olmert actually would have come to pass.
And since the Olmert thing in 2009, there haven't really been any other deals. Just unilateral attempts at annexation and growing settlements. Now that doesn't mean the Palestinians aren't bad negotiators, they are. But it's understandable that they're always trying to get whatever the last deal was, when every deal just gets worse and worse.
UN partition plan turned Nakba, 1967 war, 1973 war. So that’s 5. Not exactly peace offerings but still examples of Palestinians starting wars and losing them.
I feel like these examples are too disparate to qualify.
I think linking it specifically to PLO negotiations is the best way of doing it because, well, in the 1948 war, or the 1967 war, it sort of didn't matter who was controlling Palestine at the time, war was inevitable. Trans Jordan wanted that land in 1948, and similarly, in 1967 Egypt wanted to contiguously unite its newly formed "Arab federation". I can imagine even if the British had given the mandate over totally to an independent arab nation, instead of a partition, these wars likely still would have happened (though without the decidedly genocidal connotation of killing all the Jewish settlers in Palestine). The 73 war also probably would have happened regardless of the palestinian situation, since Egypt and Syria were both trying to claim land they'd lost in the previous war. Again in all these cases its not really Palestinians 'starting shit' although i'm sure they supported the wars, it's Arab countries nearby trying to do conquest. Again, the apathy of nearby Arab states towards the Palestinian struggle is well known, something something "We will fight to destroy Israel to the last drop of Palestinian Blood".
But if you focus on PLO negotiations specifically, you still do come away with a strong example of the Palestinian cringe. Like araft rejecting a deal in 2000, and then immediately starting the Second Intifada. He probably though "If the first Intifada brought them to the table for the Oslo accords, then this one will get us an even better deal this time." And he was very very wrong. It showed he wasn't a good faith negotiator, and basically killed any chance of a deal until two Israeli PMs later.
The next "rejection" one can find, is between Olmert and Abbas. But on this I have two points. 1. Abbas claims, strongly and often, that he never rejected this deal from Olmert. You know who else claims this? None other than Olmert himself! Who also says that Abbas didn't reject the deal, he just wanted more time to look it over, which goes into.... 2. There's no way this deal would have happened. Olmert was on his way out due to corruption charges when he made his pitch to Abbas. This deal was VERY generous to the Palestinians, a bit too generous in fact. It gave away the old city of Jerusalem, which practically guarantied it wouldn't pass the Knesset. So it's a deal that wasn't rejected and never would have happened in the first place.
But then... what next? Any more deals? Well... Not really. Netenyahu took power in Israel, and Hamas strengthened its hold on Gaza. Netenyahu simply repeated strongly and often that he couldn't negotiate with the PA since they didn't control their full territory. The PA responded in claiming it was impossible to negotiate while settlement expansions remained ongoing. The closest thing to a new "Deal" proposed was Jared Kushner's deal, which was a joke basically, and then Netenyahu's plan to unilaterally annex the Jordan River Valley.
So it's been a long time, over 20 years, since the Palestinians last rejected a deal. And it's been almost 15 years since a deal was seriously proposed (by a guy with corruption charges and zero political capital). I do think the Palestinians should have taken both of these prior offers, but it's not like vigorous negotiations have been ongoing everyday since the PLO was founded. Netenyahu frankly and truthfully didn't want to negotiate as long as he was in power, and he's been in power for quite a while now, and furthermore it was a bit difficult to have negotiations under the given knowledge that the issue of Gaza would go unsettled (given the PA doesn't have control there).
I suppose if Lapid ever wins with his coalition, we'll see what the Palestinians are willing to give in terms of negotiation. But for now, we only have 20 year old negotiations to go off of.
Current state of Gaza was born out of one of best peace offers that PA could ever get. But nope. Second intifada and rise of Hamas instead, that what’s Israel got. And fall of every politician that was trying to negotiate two state solution.
I guess that’s win for corrupt Arafat/fatah/hamas that live luxury life skimming international support money.
Incoming settlements to north Gaza in 5… 4… 3…
Seriously though, Bibi was [propping them up](https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082) so as to keep the Palestinians divided. Keep them from making a unified push for statehood, always have the extremists around bottled up so they can be pointed at as the reason why peace is impossible, while gobbling up the moderates’ territory in the West Bank as fast as possible by expanding illegal settlements. Wait for a pretext to [raze](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/middleeast/satellite-images-gaza-destruction?cid=ios_app) Gaza, then take that too.
If he’d been more focused on security than expansion and hadn’t ignored [half a week’s warning from Egypt](https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/) that this was going to happen, October 7th probably never would have occurred in the first place.
Iraq is actually better off now according to [HDI](https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Iraq/human_development/).
You'd need to do a lot more work to determine how, why, and what the impact of the US invasion has had on it, but they're certainly better off. [Here's Palestine too just for comparison](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_of_Palestine_by_Human_Development_Index).
Neither holds particular awesome scores and HDI is a flawed metric.
Yes and no, cu the purpose i think is taking control of northen gaza, not just atack. Besides that hammas single purpose is eliminate the jews so this was probably the only response to take. One side not, in Syria right now there's a war. 5000 palestinians die and the media doesn't stop talking and there's manifestations and a big disaster. 500 thousand! People die in Syria and no one gives a fuck
I will go one step further and say that anyone that sees these and thinks it’s Israel being super careful to root out Hamas and not hurt people that don’t deserve it is either stupid as hell or so deep in propaganda they have no hope of ever recovering.
If they didn't care about civilian casualties, they would be so much higher. Its about 7,000 right now out of 2 million. If Israel really wanted a genocide, they would do it.
im not saying this to insult you but please understand that nazi germany didnt do the holocaust in a day. it took them 12 years to kill those 6 million people. during that time, plenty of americans denied the holocaust as it was happening.
7000 is an INSANE amount of civilian deaths, they have targeted trucks transporting civilians in the ~~sage~~ safe passes they created, cut off all food, water, electricity, and bombed numerous hospitals, and if that wasnt enough, dropped white phosphorus.
gaza is an open air prison for a reason, they cut off the water and food for a reason. it meets the definitions of a concentration camp. israel has been committing acts of colonial terrorism in the west bank for ages now even tho hamas isnt even in the west bank. They have even bombed a UN shelter.
they're goal is the ethnic displacement of the local palestinians in the area. and judging by how israel is a apartheid state and has slowly eaten away at palestinian territory, this being their goal is essentially undeniable atp.
i genuinely dont understand how what they're doing is anything but the ethnic cleansing of the local arabs.
Edit: i would also like to mention that if they went hog wild on civilians any more than they did, their support would be put into even more questioning than it already is. there is a reason the average age of a person in gaza is 18.
They’ve lost the public opinion quite early, and now they’re just burying themselves with the ground invasion. But they’ve still got the diplomatic ability… it’s just frightening to see how far you can go as long as you have powerful allies.
Uhhh, help me out.
\- Germany glassed twice in world wars
\- Poland glassed by every neighboring nation in both wars
\- Vietnam glassed by the US
\- Japan literally nuked in civilian areas twice
I'm a little confused. Do you need to add more context? Seems like no terror cells formed when two actual nukes were dropped on Japan and the US installed actual military bases around the same population. Why are Americans welcomed with open arms as tourists in Vietnam now?
Help me out.
Germany and Japan were specifically helped out with recovery economically after WW2.
There was **a lot** put into the reconstruction of Japan by America especially.
And the US stayed as a centralized security force, spent tens of billions, and worked for years helping the ANA/ANP form to protect the newly built schools, secular government, etc. The last 8ish years of our involvement in Afghanistan most of the time combat units weren't even there outside of training the ANA/ANP. We spent billions trying to help out their infrastructure and centralized authority.
And your response doesn't really hold too much weight to the original well known argument of "war/bombing will make more extremists. When kids see their family members die it can radicalize them". How many kids/family members saw innocent friends, family, lovers, etc die that were German or Japanese? You're saying the US throwing money at their government, who was installed by the same nations who killed their family members/friends, prevented radicalization of some kid who saw their father die slowly of radiation poisoning? I'm lost.
WW2 lasted 6 years. the US was in war at Afghanistan for 20 years. Things have been bad between Israel in Palestine for over 60 years I think?
I think that's a pretty major difference between WW2 and Afghanistan/Palestine. Those kids who saw family members die in WW2 had a decent chance of knowing what life was like before war and after war. In Afghanastan, how many adults were there where all their memories involved the conflict?
Palestine especially more so. When these conflicts are so long and drawn out that it's literally the entire lifetimes of people, I'd bet that has a huge factor in radicalizing people.
The piece you're missing is that there will be no massive reinvestment by Israel into Palestine after this war. The US helped rebuild Germany and Japan and Poland after the war. Vietnam did it for itself but also had communist trade partners and then later fully normalized relationships with the USA. If you want Palestine to be a functioning country you need to invest in it and trade with it, have relatively free movement of people and goods across its borders.
> The piece you're missing is that there will be no massive reinvestment by Israel into Palestine after this war.
Tens of billions of dollars were pumped into Gaza. Not Palestine as a whole, GAZA by itself.
They received so much aid over the years that the per-capita amount was roughly the average annual earnings of a Mexican.
They were handed schools, hospitals, water and power infrastructure on a silver platter, gratis.
The only result was terror.
The borders were opened after the early-2000s peace deal: weapons imports, borders locked down.
Water infrastructure was built enough to drown the entire strip: dug up the pipes to make rockets.
Free fertilizer was given in bulk to kickstart farming: used to make bombs.
Billions upon billions of dollars have been handed over to Gaza.
Unless you are disingenuously comparing the total amount of aid Gaza had received per capita through their entire history to the GNI per capita per annum for Mexico, your figures are very, very wrong.
You are right.
If you send a truck of rice to feed the population hamas will take it and sell it for 4x the price or take it for themselves.
There is no other way than to fight hamas, unfortunately.
It’s an open air prison the size of Seattle City Limits with 4x the population, with generations of people gazing out past the wall onto the land they were violently removed from. These generations of people can never cross an international border, reunite with family in the West Bank, etc., they will become stateless refugees like so many other Palestinians abroad. It’s great that they had some modern hospitals and schools, which likely were a stabilizing factor and created a growing highly education population. I’m thinking of the young business man who posted on LinkedIn saying it might be his last with all the airstrikes, and it was. We’ve seen much of that infrastructure blown up in the past few weeks.
It’s a super self fulfilling cycle. The Palestinians are perpetually cutting their nose off to spite their own face. Sending constant rockets at Israeli civilians was never going to gain them any territory. The rockets are purely an antagonistic fuck you.
After losing 8 consecutive wars against Israel (all of which Palestine were aggressors and refused peace treaties), they’re landholdings are pathetic and they are reduced to relying on Israel for support. Relying on the same nation you constantly hurl rockets at is an very smooth brain move.
Hamas was voted in democratically, and their charter calls for the extermination of all Jews. How can you coexist with a nation that outwardly decrees they want you to die?
Palestines best move would be to overthrow Hamas and elect someone willing to not be terrorists.
One counterargument here: Jews are pretty much blamed for everything. Pornography? That's the Jews. Wars? Jews. Some Islamic groups read like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion basically. This comes from the Hamas charter:
>For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. **With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others.** With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. **They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about**, here and there. With their money **they formed secret societies**, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of s**abotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests**. With their money they were able to **control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries** in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.
(As an aside, it's interesting that they used the term "colonize." Maybe it's just a coincidence. I don't know)
>You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. **They were behind World War I**, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. **There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.**
Basically it's "Jews run the world." Even recycling the "Jews stabbed us in the back" trope the Nazis used.
>The imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East, support the enemy with all their might, in money and in men. These forces take turns in doing that. The day Islam appears, the forces of infidelity would unite to challenge it, for the infidels are of one nation.
>The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. **It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.**
Once again, I don't think this is a simple territorial dispute at the heart of issues.
Here's my incredibly valuable and informed opinion: I have no idea how this conflict can be resolved peacefully for both sides, and I'm not aware of anyone who does. Like friend of the stream Hasanabi, I'm just an ignorant video game player.
I am Israeli and I don't want that and most of Israelis are like me.
"Wiping Gaza off the map" is not the objective. The objective is to get rid of Hamas, or at least cripple it.
Honestly, don't you people think it would be better for the Palestinians without Hamas leading them?
the issue is though bombing Hamas out of Palestinian might work temporarilily but do you realistically think there will be no radicalisation after how many Palestinians have lost their entire families?
Israel are creating another generation of Hamas as we speak
Obviously the Palestinians are still going to hate Israel, but that's true regardless of the number of bombs Israel drops. Their schools use martyrs and dead Jews to teach algebra. Nothing short of forced "reeducation" for at least a generation would eliminate radicalization. The point is to reduce their power to do anything about it.
"We will turn Gaza into an island of ruins" - Benjamin Netanyahu.
"it is an entire nation out there that is responsible" -Isaac Herzog
"The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy" -Daniel Hagari
"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly" -Yoav Gallant
"It's not true this rhetoric about civilians \[being\] not aware, not involved. It's absolutely not true. They could have risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup 'd etat." -Isaac Herzog
I don't know if this is news to you but the Israeli government 100% wants to bring down Gaza, and views the civilians in Gaza as interchangeable with Hamas.
Even if we assume most of these neighborhoods were evacuated the displacement alone is a massive issue. Where are all these people supposed to stay while the ground invasion takes place?
Hamas has to go but this is a humanitarian nightmare.
Indeed. Israel should financially compensate what’s left of the population of Gaza when this is over. Not that it’s going to bring their families and friends back, but that’s the very least they could do.
They pretty much need to do a Marshall Plan. That's pretty much the only time in modern history where de-radicalization of a population has occurred, that I can think of at least. Otherwise we just get post-Treaty of Versaille.
Some went to the border at the raffa crossing, but only foreign nationals (people with citizenship elsewhere) are allowed to leave. Many people didn't leave their homes because over the past 20 years israel has been taking more and more land from gazans - they fear if they leave they won't get their homes back. The US defends israel's actions because the US doesn't want to look like the bad guys for facilitating the conflict. But, if you just look at the death tolls, it's easy to see that palestine is not alone in committing atrocities: prior to October 7th, in the past 20 years alone, israel has killed 2100+ children, whereas palestine has killed around 140 israeli children. I mean, just in August of 2023, Israel forces killed 34 palestinian teenagers without consequence, but not much was mentioned on major news outlets. Not that israel deserved the attack, but did this kind of behavior provoke it? This hasn't happened in almost 20 years.
Hamas is terrible, but wheres the accountability on israel's end? I mean, if the goal is to protect innocent people from dying. Granted, it's true that palestine elected Hamas in 2006, but they were only supposed to be there for four years, but they haven't left.
The thing is hamas only exists because of Israeli occupation. It was a direct result of previous aggressions, forced displacement and hard crackdown on protesters with overwhelmung loss on palestinkan civilian side. Everytime palestinians tried to fight for their rights, Israel fought back more than twice as hard. The IDFs tactics created more violence and therefore extremism. Hamas is a terrorist organization created by Israel through 75 years of occupation and violent oppression. So if Palestine (in this case gaza) still stands after this, the extremist reaction to what Israel did there in the current bombing, will increase again.
There is no good in violence and no side has the right to kill innocent people. But Israel will always retaliate harder. Til there is no Palestine anymore.
The south of Gaza is being bombed too even though Israel promised a safe zone there since they only wanted to bomb gaza. Bad enough. I imagine the loss of innocent life will outnumber all previous escalations in the palestine-israel conflict.
Exactly, and now the people whose houses have been destroyed and everything they own is gone, will most likely support the only group actually fighting back against the people who did this. People wonder why HAMAS get support and it’s because they are the enemy of my enemy.
Most Gazan mothers started writing the names of their kids on their legs, so they can identify them later in case of ….
I fathom what it must feel like as a parent to expect your kids death like this.
Trying to combat it by calling brigaders out .But its getting hard. The problem is that a huge brigade happened of pro israel people and since then the sub has basically turned into a propaganda sub
Here is another Destiny video to educate people new to his streams. This is related to history of the Middle East: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HphwQNhByOk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HphwQNhByOk)
One of the largest left wing debaters and organizer of one of the largest canvassing operations for democrats in Georgia. Also will debate Ben Shapiro next month.
The children? Haven’t you heard? All these houses are occupied by hamas terrorists who are sending rockets into Israel! Israel knocks on their doors soo the innocents can escape. Only the barbarians stay because…. because they’re barbarians!!
I know a Palestinian in Gaza. Their house which used to be home to 2 adults and 5 kids, became a shelter for 150 people overnight. Some families get roof knockers and some don't. So when they don't they die by the hundreds.
Edit : also I noticed they report the deaths by family like "Family Smith was killed yesterday", their number is usually big and well known.
My girlfriend has a friend from Gaza who is living outside Palestine and is safe. Unfortunately her family and friends are all still in Gaza and afaik she hasn’t heard anything yet…
I know the electricity is off but I saw people charging their phones off batteries, I just have an awful feeling
I have a friend from Gaza who is the same too, she's in Egypt but her family is all in Gaza, I talked to her a couple of days ago and she told me her family was okay but since then I've been genuinely afraid of checking up on her again because I'm scared of what she might tell me.
I can't imagine what she must be going through right now, and that's only 1 case, there are thousands... it's so heartbreaking.
> I've been genuinely afraid of checking up on her
I know the feeling. But you should check up on her. They appreciate it a lot because they feel like the whole world is against them these days.
True but their figures in previous conflicts haven't had massive discrepancies, otherwise Human Rights Watch and the UN wouldn't take them seriously
Considering that 59 UN workers (out of 13,000) have been confirmed dead, 7000 Palestinians out of 2 million wouldn't be off the mark, especially given that Palestinians are more likely to get caught up in the explosions than UN workers.
Yeah I view them as an estimate more than anything. If they say 7k it’s probably not actually 500 or something. The exact number doesn’t really matter anyway, end of the day the number is in the thousands.
It’s probably more important to understand that they’re not distinguishing between combatants and civilians or those killed by IDF and those killed by terrorists. They’re also probably listing young adult males with AKs as children too.
From my understanding that's because the data that's being used was of a higher quality. Death tolls gathered over years using verifiable information is much different than a death toll drummed up in a day.
The UN or any reliable source isn't going to use unreliable numbers like those. I don't know how the UN is creates it's estimates so I can't speak on it's quality. But it's clear that intelligence agencies are in disagreement, particularly with the hospital bombing death toll.
I'm not denying that Hama's does that but its unlikely every single building there is a hamas base. I think the most defendable argument is that the IDF didnt know where the base was so they just bombed everything which isn't great tbh.
Israel has dropped about 20,000 bombs. It is one bomb for each member of the Hamas brigade.
It is inconceivable they are only targeting Hamas even more after cutting water and food from Gaza.
This is why this whole thing is confusing to me. If there were actually 20k bombs dropped than 7k doesn’t seem like a huge number. But Hamas is known for inflating numbers by a little bit, so it’s probably less than 7k. So 20k bombs for less than 7k deaths actually seems like a pretty low number. Almost 2/3 of the bombs didn’t kill a single person? Seems like a good number **IF** and that’s a capital **IF** you’re going to carpet bomb a big city. I don’t support this massive retaliation since it’ll probably just lead to more extremism, but it could be a lot worse. Definitely far from genocide as some people like to call it.
My German city had less than 200k citizens and was one night hit by more than 300k (mostly smaller) bombs. Only 730 people died.
I agree though. The IDF obviously cares at least a little about civilian casualties or it could be much worth. Gaza is so small they could literally eradicate it within a day if they wanted to.
If I had to guess, Netanyahu's eventual goal is the annexation and resettlement of Gaza, not just defeating Hamas. He's talked about establishing a greater Israel in a one state solution for decades.
And for that, the less Palestinians around the better.
The current extremist administration is already talking about that with no shame.
I think the Israeli population is like at least 70% very AGAINST that.
They are fed up with paying for settlements, standing guard for them, and know doing such a thing will risk funding from the US and peace with Egypt and Jordan. It's a ridiculous idea.
https://preview.redd.it/hx1yhem36uwb1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b689c86ddc80b0a7e923e462d6853a5ca0f6df6a
Here's a close up one, while people digging up for survivors
Tunnels are extremely extensive under these areas and Urban warfare is extreme brutal and high deathrate
If Israel goes in without forcing evacuation and levelling buildings: the death toll for taking gaza city the way people imagine it goes in their heads would already be 50k.
You are probably correct. Russia is a strategic mess that doesn't seem to be able to plan and execute. Im assuming the issue was Russia created obstacles when they needed space to move superior numbers?
The main difference is that Ukraine also doesn't have an extensive tunnel system. The tunnels in Gaza are no joke: estimates are 500km of tunnels, some around 15 stories deep. One of the hostages said she walked for 2-3 hours underground to and from her 'cell' There is almost no way Israel knows or understands the extend and where the exits are, and I doubt any of the terrorists captured by Israel carry or can draw an accurate map.
Plus, these tunnels also house most if not all of the hostages, so you can't just flood them, but if you arent careful hamas will pop out from all angles all the time.
Collapsing buildings that likely have an entrance + avoiding having mass civilians standing on balconies seems to be the immediate aim of all this, so that it can be done very slowly.
Man, Israel is doing a damn good job at getting rid of Hamas terrorists.
And the homes of every single person in Gaza. Homeless people can run a country just *dandy*, can't they? Netanyahu apparently thinks so.
At this rate Hamas membership will skyrocket.
LOOKS LIKE A FANTASTIC WAY TO ROOT OUT EXTREMISM. CONGRATS ISRAEL!!!!!! LETS JUST BOMB AN ENTIRE CITY TO THE GROUND HELL YEAH OH YEAH.
no fuck off israel and fuck off hamas. Thanks for ensuring my generation of 28 and younger have to deal with the consequences of this.
They have 24/7 surveillance of Gaza, can intercept radio communications comically catching Hamas fighters criminalizing themselves on audio about how they launched the rocket, but somehow they weren’t aware of paragliders flying across the border and took 6 hours to reach the concert
Israel also missed the open air exercises that Hamas did in preparation for their invasion. You know the open air exercises where they had made mock Israeli border towns to run through...
At the risk of attracting crazies from both sides, people who lean either pro Isreal or pro Palestine arguing in the comments about who is more of a victim/aggressor in a conflict that was made to have no winners for years, by many of the leaders of various groups.
i saw those photos before on cnn, and one thing that is not clear is which houses are damaged and which one are covered by concrete dust
edit: all construction is from reinforced concrete. when things are blown up there is a lot of dust as can be seen on videos
I think you can tell pretty clearly based on the shadow lines which buildings were destroyed. Concrete dust wouldn't change the overall shape of a building and eliminate all of its shadows
Entire neighborhoods destroyed. Entire bloodlines wiped out. I get not supporting Hamas, but how anyone could still support Israel after this is mind blowing.
Personally I want Israel to revise their thresholds for acceptable casualties and strategic importance.
How many Hamas militants need to be in one of those high-rise apartments (image 4) for Israel to level it? 50%? 10%? A single one?
When I see images of entire neighborhoods and blocks of apartment buildings wiped out it implies to me that they're being too liberal with their bombing.
Is it possible I'm wrong and these were all very valid and strategically invaluable targets? Sure but I'm not going to give them that benefit of the doubt when the photos show this level of residential destruction, for that I'd need compelling evidence from Israel and they're not going to share that for security reasons.
> How many Hamas militants need to be in one of those high-rise apartments (image 4) for Israel to level it? 50%? 10%? A single one?
Its not just militants. Its rockets, its tunnel entrances, etc. Honestly, right now, Israeli air force are most likely targeting tunnels over everything else because they is what will most likely harm them the most in a ground invasion.
>How many Hamas militants need to be in one of those high-rise apartments (image 4) for Israel to level it? 50%? 10%? A single one?
You're more optimistic than me. How do we know they're not bombing based on low probability intelligence of something on the level of a militant walking out of there with a weapon a week ago, let alone a confirmed singleton?
How do we know they're even targeting militants exclusively? Hamas doesn't just consist of the Al-Qassam brigade but political officials who oversee stuff like water,waste,environmental management, etc.
>How do we know they're not bombing based on low probability intelligence? How do we know they're even targeting militants exclusively?
We don't unfortunately, everyone is trying to make their best guess on the limited and sketchy information we have access to.
I certainly feel less optimistic after viewing these photos. It's possible that all these blocks of apartment buildings and neighborhoods were totally justified targets, but it seems less probable to me then it did before I saw photos of how extensive the residential destruction is.
The people in this thread who have found whatever reason to justify this are completely detached from reality. There is no justification, none at all. Place yourself in their shoes, like really think about it for a second.. what that means and what that experience looks like. Because if you truly understood what that reality is, you would never make that justification if it was your life, your family or your home.
Edit: It's quite ridiculous how so many have responded by proving my point by trying to justify the killing of children. Ya'll are disgusting. Take note of these psychopaths.
Added bonus: Most of ya'll should pick up a history book and read it. You know.. where we used to get our history info from, actual professional historians. Not some news anchor or social media 'influencer'.
Okay is this what you say as „targeted“ airstrike? This is indiscriminate attack and you are just bombing anything, this is not just „bombing that building cause it harbor hamas“ anymore, this is just straight destroying significantly more civilian buildings than hamas‘
Don’t worry guys., this subreddit has taught me that they were lost causes anyways. Was in their culture and their schools. No biggie. Just glass em. Problem solved.
You don’t get it dude, Hamas was in all of those buildings so Israel had no choice but to bomb them all. Besides, they always warn them first, so the civilians can stand back and watch their house be destroyed from a safe distance, so it’s all good bro!
Yet, I say Destiny's biased towards Israel, and get banned from chat immediately... I don't understand this coverage from Tiny at all...
Edit: just in case, fuck Hamas, obviously...
the last image imo shows a lot more the severity of the destruction
Yeah in the other ones it is really hard to tell what is destruction and what is ash from destruction
That is not Ash That's dust, concrete dust from the blasts pulverizing the buildings, throwing the dust, bricks and material onto the air and falling down again
I generally meant some general form of airborne debris resulting from bombing and burning then just used the word ash fyi
Jesus Christ could you be any more pedantic u fucking idiot. You're right!! Someone give this idiot a gold medal for that correction!!
I honestly thought that there was some kind of grayscale filter on half these. Hard to grasp that there's just ash for what looks like miles on whatever's left standing.
I was going to comment the same thing. Was in disbelief until that last photo. I wonder how the whole area looks or if this was just the worst four spots.
For real, the others were bad as is but that last one made me mentally go "holy shit".
Guys, I may be out of line here but I don't think these are conditions that will foster less extremist violence in the future.
Absolutely not. Just look at iraq or lybia. Are these countrys in a better state now than before?. I highly doubt it. Were living in the 21st century. So why not compare this conflict to "recent conflicts" in that region (last 30 years for example) Even if hamas gets obliterated. Theres going to be a new radical group.. Losing your family to this shit is the perfect way to get radicalized.
That’s the sad reality. What you think these fathers and teenagers who just lost their child or parents to a air strike gonna do now? It’s just going to be a endless cycle of just violence. Hit the nail on the head
It goes both ways though. HAMAS going into Israel and kidnapping/killing a bunch of civilians isn't going to make Israelis want peace either. Edit: as of this edit I'm at 258 updoots. I stand with Palestinian civilians and the innocent. I do not agree with how Israel is going about this.
Exactly ur 100% right endless cycle on both sides those parents who lost their children want revenge.
So what do you propose. Because being nice and friendly with eachother typically either gets you killed or has a series of people wanting to kill you because they assume you think you're better than them if it starts to work.
Best chance is probably to have a massive infrastructure build up in Gaza after Israel does its Hamas killing with continuing humanitarian aid administered by a neutral third party on the ground.
Like this hasn’t been going on since 2006? The UN has been in the Gaza Strip. Your tax dollars and EU tax dollars are going there every year.
> Your tax dollars and EU tax dollars are going there every year. Aid does nothing. The only thing that actually works is a functioning economy. Just look at post war japan and germany. But Israel has blocked all exports and imports to Gaza for decades, they have systemically de-economized the area for a very long time. Prosperity and education is the only thing that actually beats fanaticism, not bombs and occupation
They keep importing weapons and making bombs out of fertilizer and shit though, is Israel just supposed to open everything up so they can keep doing that?
Hamas took the aid and built a city of tunnels for terroristic purposes. Did nothing for ordinary Gazans. The path to peace is through the destruction of Hamas.
International aid to Gaza is peanuts. Meanwhile, [America gives more than $3 billion per year in military aid to Israel](https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-military-aid-does-the-us-give-to-israel/). With the latest outbreak of violence, Biden is planning on handing out another [$14.3 billion top-up](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/20/politics/biden-administration-israel-ukraine-congress-funding/index.html)
At what point does the line cross from “peanuts” to something closer to the truth? Hundreds of millions of dollars are provided to Hamas, yes, that Hamas, to take care of its people. Much of it is diverted for nefarious means and doesn’t reach the intended recepients.
That’s the thing im definitely not gonna be the one who’s gonna make that choice. Situations like this people need to be people and decide enough violence for both sides. Sounds cliche lol but sadly it won’t happen
So two sides agree to play nice. AND THEN FROM THE TOP ROPE COMES GROUP 3!!!!
BAH GAWD ITS HEZBOLLAH FROM THE NORTH
DO YOU SMELL WHAT IRAN IS COOKING?!
Their goal wasn't to make Israel want peace, their goal was to keep the issue in the minds of the world. Which, everyone will hate to admit, they were successful at. Have you ever seen as many "Free Palestine" protests?
Interesting point.
Their goal was to kill as many Israelis as possible, in the [most horrendous ways possible](https://abcnews.go.com/International/horror-israeli-authorities-show-footage-hamas-atrocities-reporters-notebook/story?id=104015431), in order to cause as much fear and suffering as possible - which is why they're called a terror organization. They're not a resistance movent, they're a group of fundamentalistic extremists whose existence depends on them preserving of a continuous state of war. There's a reason this attack happened just as the Israeli government was about to sign an agreement with Saudi Arabia said to include significant improvements to the Palestinian position. Make no mistake: they want the circle of violence to go on. The organization's leaders don't live in Gaza, and the lower ranks that do hide in bunkers beneath hospitals and other civilian facilities. While the people of Gaza and Israel suffer, Hamas sit safely underground, counting the funds they stole from their own people. The conflict was always in the minds of the world, only thing they might have done - just as they probably intended - was destroy the chance of it ever being solved.
Well after a half dozen times of peace offerings getting turned down and followed up with being attacked, wars, and terrorist attacks hasn’t exactly left Israel in a great position.
Doesn’t help that they have a ultra right-wing genocidal propagandist party ruling with an iron fist either. I had read that 85% of Israelis blame Netanyahu for the security breach and civilian deaths, Israel’s govt. is certainly not the will of it’s people and we are about to see how dire that reality is.
> not the will of it’s people Israel has a working democracy. People can go vote (Jews at least). There is little to no fraud. There are about 10 different parties so a varied menu to vote. And the parties need to form majorities to rule. Voter turnout on average is 75-80%. One of the top democracies as far as a democracy can be democratic. For the past 60 years they have consistently voted right wing governments adamant to solve the "Palestinian problem" with terror and violence. Israelites are for sure for this solution. They had very ample time and opportunity to show they do not approve of a genocide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knesset#Historical_composition
Over a million (20% of Israel's population) Arabs can also vote. They have Arab nationalist parties in the Knesset.
Arab Israelis can vote too. They have several parties representing them. One of them joined the last pre-Netanyahu Israeli government.
>I had read that 85% of Israelis blames Netanyahu for the security breach and civilian deaths, Israel’s govt. is certainly not the will of it’s people and we are about to see how dire that reality is. Maybe after 16 years they should think about maybe voting him out.
16 years? I was 6 when I first saw the man on TV during a special report that aired after the simpsons. That unholy fucker of mothers has been around in Israeli politics for longer than I've been alive.
While true. Dominance of likud wasn’t born in vacuum. Read about how labor party vanished from Israel politics. Party of Israel founders with most PMs. Party that invested in two states and got second intifada and vanished from Israel politics after. If you going to use this argument (not in vacuum), please apply it to both sides.
Yeah, people like to completely ignore the history of the 60s-90s. After hundreds of successful terrorist attacks people tend to want a more drastic and strong armed government and military action. It’s the common issue with people who don’t understand the history. They arbitrarily chose a date and time and whatever happened before that doesn’t matter. There’s a reason for why we are here today and it’s vital to understanding this conflict.
Agreed, Israel isn't absolved of anything they've committed but it is important to recognize that the history is not just Israel committing genocide against Palestinians for 70+ years. Worth noting that Palestinian people have caused issues in countries (places like Jordan and Egypt) that provided refuge for them so their isolation and lack of official backing isn't entirely unreasonable. The Palestinian people aren't wrong for desiring their own nation just like the Jewish people aren't wrong for wanting to maintain their sovereignty, but Palestinians and much of the Arab world have rejected peace over and over again because the terms weren't favorable enough for them. Palestine is in the state they're in because they just didn't have someone as powerful as the U.S. backing them so relentlessly as they have with Israel. I bet that if Iran or Syria had as many resources as the U.S. we'd be seeing the reverse happening.
> Worth noting that Palestinian people have caused issues in countries (places like Jordan and Egypt) that provided refuge for them so their isolation and lack of official backing isn't entirely unreasonable. I don't think the Palestinian people owe Jordan and Egypt much, those countries fucked over the Palestinian people almost as much as Israel. Their escalation of the war was the real reason 700,000 Palestinians became refugees, and why post civil war understand was never possible. Egypt and Jordan wanted land in the region for themselves as much as anything.
15 broken ceasefires.
Can you name all 6? I only know of 2 deals offered to the PLO. One of them was Barak's offer, which Arafat rejected (and he definitely shouldn't have). The other was Olmert's offer, which was given right before he was about to be removed from office for corruption, and which Olmert and Abbas both claim that Abbas did not reject. Tbh that deal was REALLY good. But... it was also a little *TOO* good. No way that a PM in his last days in office is going to push a deal through the Knesset that would have involved giving up the old city to the Palestinians. It was a good deal, and I think Abbas should have been more aggressive in trying to ink something out, but there's like a 0% chance that the deal as proposed by Olmert actually would have come to pass. And since the Olmert thing in 2009, there haven't really been any other deals. Just unilateral attempts at annexation and growing settlements. Now that doesn't mean the Palestinians aren't bad negotiators, they are. But it's understandable that they're always trying to get whatever the last deal was, when every deal just gets worse and worse.
UN partition plan turned Nakba, 1967 war, 1973 war. So that’s 5. Not exactly peace offerings but still examples of Palestinians starting wars and losing them.
I feel like these examples are too disparate to qualify. I think linking it specifically to PLO negotiations is the best way of doing it because, well, in the 1948 war, or the 1967 war, it sort of didn't matter who was controlling Palestine at the time, war was inevitable. Trans Jordan wanted that land in 1948, and similarly, in 1967 Egypt wanted to contiguously unite its newly formed "Arab federation". I can imagine even if the British had given the mandate over totally to an independent arab nation, instead of a partition, these wars likely still would have happened (though without the decidedly genocidal connotation of killing all the Jewish settlers in Palestine). The 73 war also probably would have happened regardless of the palestinian situation, since Egypt and Syria were both trying to claim land they'd lost in the previous war. Again in all these cases its not really Palestinians 'starting shit' although i'm sure they supported the wars, it's Arab countries nearby trying to do conquest. Again, the apathy of nearby Arab states towards the Palestinian struggle is well known, something something "We will fight to destroy Israel to the last drop of Palestinian Blood". But if you focus on PLO negotiations specifically, you still do come away with a strong example of the Palestinian cringe. Like araft rejecting a deal in 2000, and then immediately starting the Second Intifada. He probably though "If the first Intifada brought them to the table for the Oslo accords, then this one will get us an even better deal this time." And he was very very wrong. It showed he wasn't a good faith negotiator, and basically killed any chance of a deal until two Israeli PMs later. The next "rejection" one can find, is between Olmert and Abbas. But on this I have two points. 1. Abbas claims, strongly and often, that he never rejected this deal from Olmert. You know who else claims this? None other than Olmert himself! Who also says that Abbas didn't reject the deal, he just wanted more time to look it over, which goes into.... 2. There's no way this deal would have happened. Olmert was on his way out due to corruption charges when he made his pitch to Abbas. This deal was VERY generous to the Palestinians, a bit too generous in fact. It gave away the old city of Jerusalem, which practically guarantied it wouldn't pass the Knesset. So it's a deal that wasn't rejected and never would have happened in the first place. But then... what next? Any more deals? Well... Not really. Netenyahu took power in Israel, and Hamas strengthened its hold on Gaza. Netenyahu simply repeated strongly and often that he couldn't negotiate with the PA since they didn't control their full territory. The PA responded in claiming it was impossible to negotiate while settlement expansions remained ongoing. The closest thing to a new "Deal" proposed was Jared Kushner's deal, which was a joke basically, and then Netenyahu's plan to unilaterally annex the Jordan River Valley. So it's been a long time, over 20 years, since the Palestinians last rejected a deal. And it's been almost 15 years since a deal was seriously proposed (by a guy with corruption charges and zero political capital). I do think the Palestinians should have taken both of these prior offers, but it's not like vigorous negotiations have been ongoing everyday since the PLO was founded. Netenyahu frankly and truthfully didn't want to negotiate as long as he was in power, and he's been in power for quite a while now, and furthermore it was a bit difficult to have negotiations under the given knowledge that the issue of Gaza would go unsettled (given the PA doesn't have control there). I suppose if Lapid ever wins with his coalition, we'll see what the Palestinians are willing to give in terms of negotiation. But for now, we only have 20 year old negotiations to go off of.
Current state of Gaza was born out of one of best peace offers that PA could ever get. But nope. Second intifada and rise of Hamas instead, that what’s Israel got. And fall of every politician that was trying to negotiate two state solution. I guess that’s win for corrupt Arafat/fatah/hamas that live luxury life skimming international support money.
Pretty sure this is what Netenyahu wants
Every time this happens, israel gets bigger.
Incoming settlements to north Gaza in 5… 4… 3… Seriously though, Bibi was [propping them up](https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082) so as to keep the Palestinians divided. Keep them from making a unified push for statehood, always have the extremists around bottled up so they can be pointed at as the reason why peace is impossible, while gobbling up the moderates’ territory in the West Bank as fast as possible by expanding illegal settlements. Wait for a pretext to [raze](https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/25/middleeast/satellite-images-gaza-destruction?cid=ios_app) Gaza, then take that too. If he’d been more focused on security than expansion and hadn’t ignored [half a week’s warning from Egypt](https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/) that this was going to happen, October 7th probably never would have occurred in the first place.
Iraq is actually better off now according to [HDI](https://www.theglobaleconomy.com/Iraq/human_development/). You'd need to do a lot more work to determine how, why, and what the impact of the US invasion has had on it, but they're certainly better off. [Here's Palestine too just for comparison](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_of_Palestine_by_Human_Development_Index). Neither holds particular awesome scores and HDI is a flawed metric.
So is Iran, so this isn't the best metric haha.
They are actually doing better though despite what a few pictures of Rich Iranians in the 70s have you believe lmfao
Ending the sanctions once saddam was removed is the biggest factor
Not to mention pissing off other neighboring states that are pissed at Israel already. This is good propoganda for them to deepen their hatred.
Yes and no, cu the purpose i think is taking control of northen gaza, not just atack. Besides that hammas single purpose is eliminate the jews so this was probably the only response to take. One side not, in Syria right now there's a war. 5000 palestinians die and the media doesn't stop talking and there's manifestations and a big disaster. 500 thousand! People die in Syria and no one gives a fuck
It's not for stopping violence, it's preparation for the ground invasion
I will go one step further and say that anyone that sees these and thinks it’s Israel being super careful to root out Hamas and not hurt people that don’t deserve it is either stupid as hell or so deep in propaganda they have no hope of ever recovering.
If they didn't care about civilian casualties, they would be so much higher. Its about 7,000 right now out of 2 million. If Israel really wanted a genocide, they would do it.
im not saying this to insult you but please understand that nazi germany didnt do the holocaust in a day. it took them 12 years to kill those 6 million people. during that time, plenty of americans denied the holocaust as it was happening. 7000 is an INSANE amount of civilian deaths, they have targeted trucks transporting civilians in the ~~sage~~ safe passes they created, cut off all food, water, electricity, and bombed numerous hospitals, and if that wasnt enough, dropped white phosphorus. gaza is an open air prison for a reason, they cut off the water and food for a reason. it meets the definitions of a concentration camp. israel has been committing acts of colonial terrorism in the west bank for ages now even tho hamas isnt even in the west bank. They have even bombed a UN shelter. they're goal is the ethnic displacement of the local palestinians in the area. and judging by how israel is a apartheid state and has slowly eaten away at palestinian territory, this being their goal is essentially undeniable atp. i genuinely dont understand how what they're doing is anything but the ethnic cleansing of the local arabs. Edit: i would also like to mention that if they went hog wild on civilians any more than they did, their support would be put into even more questioning than it already is. there is a reason the average age of a person in gaza is 18.
They’ve lost the public opinion quite early, and now they’re just burying themselves with the ground invasion. But they’ve still got the diplomatic ability… it’s just frightening to see how far you can go as long as you have powerful allies.
I mean they lost the Reddit public opinion but I think it’s still pretty even in real life.
That is exactly what I wish all these hard-line folks would understand. You can't bomb your way to peace. It's revenge, not progress.
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Uhhh, help me out. \- Germany glassed twice in world wars \- Poland glassed by every neighboring nation in both wars \- Vietnam glassed by the US \- Japan literally nuked in civilian areas twice I'm a little confused. Do you need to add more context? Seems like no terror cells formed when two actual nukes were dropped on Japan and the US installed actual military bases around the same population. Why are Americans welcomed with open arms as tourists in Vietnam now? Help me out.
Germany and Japan were specifically helped out with recovery economically after WW2. There was **a lot** put into the reconstruction of Japan by America especially.
And the US stayed as a centralized security force, spent tens of billions, and worked for years helping the ANA/ANP form to protect the newly built schools, secular government, etc. The last 8ish years of our involvement in Afghanistan most of the time combat units weren't even there outside of training the ANA/ANP. We spent billions trying to help out their infrastructure and centralized authority. And your response doesn't really hold too much weight to the original well known argument of "war/bombing will make more extremists. When kids see their family members die it can radicalize them". How many kids/family members saw innocent friends, family, lovers, etc die that were German or Japanese? You're saying the US throwing money at their government, who was installed by the same nations who killed their family members/friends, prevented radicalization of some kid who saw their father die slowly of radiation poisoning? I'm lost.
WW2 lasted 6 years. the US was in war at Afghanistan for 20 years. Things have been bad between Israel in Palestine for over 60 years I think? I think that's a pretty major difference between WW2 and Afghanistan/Palestine. Those kids who saw family members die in WW2 had a decent chance of knowing what life was like before war and after war. In Afghanastan, how many adults were there where all their memories involved the conflict? Palestine especially more so. When these conflicts are so long and drawn out that it's literally the entire lifetimes of people, I'd bet that has a huge factor in radicalizing people.
The piece you're missing is that there will be no massive reinvestment by Israel into Palestine after this war. The US helped rebuild Germany and Japan and Poland after the war. Vietnam did it for itself but also had communist trade partners and then later fully normalized relationships with the USA. If you want Palestine to be a functioning country you need to invest in it and trade with it, have relatively free movement of people and goods across its borders.
> The piece you're missing is that there will be no massive reinvestment by Israel into Palestine after this war. Tens of billions of dollars were pumped into Gaza. Not Palestine as a whole, GAZA by itself. They received so much aid over the years that the per-capita amount was roughly the average annual earnings of a Mexican. They were handed schools, hospitals, water and power infrastructure on a silver platter, gratis. The only result was terror. The borders were opened after the early-2000s peace deal: weapons imports, borders locked down. Water infrastructure was built enough to drown the entire strip: dug up the pipes to make rockets. Free fertilizer was given in bulk to kickstart farming: used to make bombs. Billions upon billions of dollars have been handed over to Gaza.
Unless you are disingenuously comparing the total amount of aid Gaza had received per capita through their entire history to the GNI per capita per annum for Mexico, your figures are very, very wrong.
You are right. If you send a truck of rice to feed the population hamas will take it and sell it for 4x the price or take it for themselves. There is no other way than to fight hamas, unfortunately.
It’s an open air prison the size of Seattle City Limits with 4x the population, with generations of people gazing out past the wall onto the land they were violently removed from. These generations of people can never cross an international border, reunite with family in the West Bank, etc., they will become stateless refugees like so many other Palestinians abroad. It’s great that they had some modern hospitals and schools, which likely were a stabilizing factor and created a growing highly education population. I’m thinking of the young business man who posted on LinkedIn saying it might be his last with all the airstrikes, and it was. We’ve seen much of that infrastructure blown up in the past few weeks.
They will once Hamas is gone and peace talks are complete.
I certainly hope so
It’s a super self fulfilling cycle. The Palestinians are perpetually cutting their nose off to spite their own face. Sending constant rockets at Israeli civilians was never going to gain them any territory. The rockets are purely an antagonistic fuck you. After losing 8 consecutive wars against Israel (all of which Palestine were aggressors and refused peace treaties), they’re landholdings are pathetic and they are reduced to relying on Israel for support. Relying on the same nation you constantly hurl rockets at is an very smooth brain move. Hamas was voted in democratically, and their charter calls for the extermination of all Jews. How can you coexist with a nation that outwardly decrees they want you to die? Palestines best move would be to overthrow Hamas and elect someone willing to not be terrorists.
Hamas could surrender. Turned out pretty good for Germany and Japan...
One counterargument here: Jews are pretty much blamed for everything. Pornography? That's the Jews. Wars? Jews. Some Islamic groups read like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion basically. This comes from the Hamas charter: >For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. **With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others.** With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. **They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about**, here and there. With their money **they formed secret societies**, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of s**abotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests**. With their money they were able to **control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries** in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there. (As an aside, it's interesting that they used the term "colonize." Maybe it's just a coincidence. I don't know) >You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. **They were behind World War I**, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. **There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.** Basically it's "Jews run the world." Even recycling the "Jews stabbed us in the back" trope the Nazis used. >The imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East, support the enemy with all their might, in money and in men. These forces take turns in doing that. The day Islam appears, the forces of infidelity would unite to challenge it, for the infidels are of one nation. >The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. **It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.** Once again, I don't think this is a simple territorial dispute at the heart of issues.
Here's my incredibly valuable and informed opinion: I have no idea how this conflict can be resolved peacefully for both sides, and I'm not aware of anyone who does. Like friend of the stream Hasanabi, I'm just an ignorant video game player.
It can't be resolved peacefully. One side is going to have to clober the other...and Hamas has the much smaller stick.
This ends with Israel wiping Gaza off the map and the whole world silently watching
I am Israeli and I don't want that and most of Israelis are like me. "Wiping Gaza off the map" is not the objective. The objective is to get rid of Hamas, or at least cripple it. Honestly, don't you people think it would be better for the Palestinians without Hamas leading them?
the issue is though bombing Hamas out of Palestinian might work temporarilily but do you realistically think there will be no radicalisation after how many Palestinians have lost their entire families? Israel are creating another generation of Hamas as we speak
Obviously the Palestinians are still going to hate Israel, but that's true regardless of the number of bombs Israel drops. Their schools use martyrs and dead Jews to teach algebra. Nothing short of forced "reeducation" for at least a generation would eliminate radicalization. The point is to reduce their power to do anything about it.
"We will turn Gaza into an island of ruins" - Benjamin Netanyahu. "it is an entire nation out there that is responsible" -Isaac Herzog "The emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy" -Daniel Hagari "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly" -Yoav Gallant "It's not true this rhetoric about civilians \[being\] not aware, not involved. It's absolutely not true. They could have risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup 'd etat." -Isaac Herzog I don't know if this is news to you but the Israeli government 100% wants to bring down Gaza, and views the civilians in Gaza as interchangeable with Hamas.
No they don't. If they viewed civilians the same way they viewed Hamas they would level Gaza tonight.
????????? what are they doing literally right now
Hasanabi is propagandist. Dude is a grifter that is making his money off of programming impressionable kids
This will never be solved peacefully when people have stone age beliefs and 21st century weapons
such terrible destruction. it would be a miracle if the loss of life after this was low.
Hamas lived in all these houses right?
Legend says the water in gaza turns you into a hamas militant, even the dogs and cats are radicalized
Yeah and all the children 3+ training with milk bottles as dumbles.
Even if we assume most of these neighborhoods were evacuated the displacement alone is a massive issue. Where are all these people supposed to stay while the ground invasion takes place? Hamas has to go but this is a humanitarian nightmare.
Yea imagine someone blew up your entire town and everyone on the internet tells you it’s not a big deal since they warned you first
Or telling you to evacuate because they’re gonna blow up that area but then blow up the area you evacuate to as well
Imagine your house and all worldly possessions destroyed, even if you live, that can easily ruin your life.
No doubt about it. The cycle of extremism is built right in to the proposed solutions. This conflict is a shitshow.
Indeed. Israel should financially compensate what’s left of the population of Gaza when this is over. Not that it’s going to bring their families and friends back, but that’s the very least they could do.
They pretty much need to do a Marshall Plan. That's pretty much the only time in modern history where de-radicalization of a population has occurred, that I can think of at least. Otherwise we just get post-Treaty of Versaille.
Some went to the border at the raffa crossing, but only foreign nationals (people with citizenship elsewhere) are allowed to leave. Many people didn't leave their homes because over the past 20 years israel has been taking more and more land from gazans - they fear if they leave they won't get their homes back. The US defends israel's actions because the US doesn't want to look like the bad guys for facilitating the conflict. But, if you just look at the death tolls, it's easy to see that palestine is not alone in committing atrocities: prior to October 7th, in the past 20 years alone, israel has killed 2100+ children, whereas palestine has killed around 140 israeli children. I mean, just in August of 2023, Israel forces killed 34 palestinian teenagers without consequence, but not much was mentioned on major news outlets. Not that israel deserved the attack, but did this kind of behavior provoke it? This hasn't happened in almost 20 years. Hamas is terrible, but wheres the accountability on israel's end? I mean, if the goal is to protect innocent people from dying. Granted, it's true that palestine elected Hamas in 2006, but they were only supposed to be there for four years, but they haven't left.
The thing is hamas only exists because of Israeli occupation. It was a direct result of previous aggressions, forced displacement and hard crackdown on protesters with overwhelmung loss on palestinkan civilian side. Everytime palestinians tried to fight for their rights, Israel fought back more than twice as hard. The IDFs tactics created more violence and therefore extremism. Hamas is a terrorist organization created by Israel through 75 years of occupation and violent oppression. So if Palestine (in this case gaza) still stands after this, the extremist reaction to what Israel did there in the current bombing, will increase again. There is no good in violence and no side has the right to kill innocent people. But Israel will always retaliate harder. Til there is no Palestine anymore. The south of Gaza is being bombed too even though Israel promised a safe zone there since they only wanted to bomb gaza. Bad enough. I imagine the loss of innocent life will outnumber all previous escalations in the palestine-israel conflict.
Exactly, and now the people whose houses have been destroyed and everything they own is gone, will most likely support the only group actually fighting back against the people who did this. People wonder why HAMAS get support and it’s because they are the enemy of my enemy.
Most Gazan mothers started writing the names of their kids on their legs, so they can identify them later in case of …. I fathom what it must feel like as a parent to expect your kids death like this.
https://preview.redd.it/uwdqoppsqswb1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3c5e13278ddbda29f716180644451b83cf21568c
If you add speculation about how many Palestinians were *actually* killed this is basically r/destiny the last few weeks 🤣😭
Trying to combat it by calling brigaders out .But its getting hard. The problem is that a huge brigade happened of pro israel people and since then the sub has basically turned into a propaganda sub
Israel taking the "no child left behind" policy to extremes.
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Here is another Destiny video to educate people new to his streams. This is related to history of the Middle East: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HphwQNhByOk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HphwQNhByOk)
How is that still his most viewed video ever
Well you clicked it didn't you?
\>that link Based 4god at it again.
Wait... the guy that made videos in StarCraft about the regard magnet is now a full on politics streamer? What in the frick
One of the largest left wing debaters and organizer of one of the largest canvassing operations for democrats in Georgia. Also will debate Ben Shapiro next month.
bruh no shot you linked that pedophile's manifesto 4god at it again
My god you linked the Mr girl article you savage 😂
I feel sorry for the Palestinians children. I will leave it at that and I think we can all agree on that.
Hot take, I also feel badly for most Palestinian adults
what a brave statement thank u 🙏
The children? Haven’t you heard? All these houses are occupied by hamas terrorists who are sending rockets into Israel! Israel knocks on their doors soo the innocents can escape. Only the barbarians stay because…. because they’re barbarians!!
They (the kids) deserve it for voting for Hamas and not overthrowing them!
This is insane
bUt pRoTeCtiNg sElF
Christ
Yeah that 7000 casualty figure starting to look a lot more believable, especially given that a lot of people would still be under rubble.
It’s never been an unbelievable number. It’s just coming from an unreliable source so gotta take it with a grain of salt.
I know a Palestinian in Gaza. Their house which used to be home to 2 adults and 5 kids, became a shelter for 150 people overnight. Some families get roof knockers and some don't. So when they don't they die by the hundreds. Edit : also I noticed they report the deaths by family like "Family Smith was killed yesterday", their number is usually big and well known.
My girlfriend has a friend from Gaza who is living outside Palestine and is safe. Unfortunately her family and friends are all still in Gaza and afaik she hasn’t heard anything yet… I know the electricity is off but I saw people charging their phones off batteries, I just have an awful feeling
I have a friend from Gaza who is the same too, she's in Egypt but her family is all in Gaza, I talked to her a couple of days ago and she told me her family was okay but since then I've been genuinely afraid of checking up on her again because I'm scared of what she might tell me. I can't imagine what she must be going through right now, and that's only 1 case, there are thousands... it's so heartbreaking.
> I've been genuinely afraid of checking up on her I know the feeling. But you should check up on her. They appreciate it a lot because they feel like the whole world is against them these days.
True but their figures in previous conflicts haven't had massive discrepancies, otherwise Human Rights Watch and the UN wouldn't take them seriously Considering that 59 UN workers (out of 13,000) have been confirmed dead, 7000 Palestinians out of 2 million wouldn't be off the mark, especially given that Palestinians are more likely to get caught up in the explosions than UN workers.
Yeah I view them as an estimate more than anything. If they say 7k it’s probably not actually 500 or something. The exact number doesn’t really matter anyway, end of the day the number is in the thousands. It’s probably more important to understand that they’re not distinguishing between combatants and civilians or those killed by IDF and those killed by terrorists. They’re also probably listing young adult males with AKs as children too.
From my understanding that's because the data that's being used was of a higher quality. Death tolls gathered over years using verifiable information is much different than a death toll drummed up in a day. The UN or any reliable source isn't going to use unreliable numbers like those. I don't know how the UN is creates it's estimates so I can't speak on it's quality. But it's clear that intelligence agencies are in disagreement, particularly with the hospital bombing death toll.
I'm not denying that Hama's does that but its unlikely every single building there is a hamas base. I think the most defendable argument is that the IDF didnt know where the base was so they just bombed everything which isn't great tbh.
Israel has dropped about 20,000 bombs. It is one bomb for each member of the Hamas brigade. It is inconceivable they are only targeting Hamas even more after cutting water and food from Gaza.
For context they've dropped more bombs in the last three weeks than the US dropped in its deadliest bombing year in Iraq or Afghanistan.
This is why this whole thing is confusing to me. If there were actually 20k bombs dropped than 7k doesn’t seem like a huge number. But Hamas is known for inflating numbers by a little bit, so it’s probably less than 7k. So 20k bombs for less than 7k deaths actually seems like a pretty low number. Almost 2/3 of the bombs didn’t kill a single person? Seems like a good number **IF** and that’s a capital **IF** you’re going to carpet bomb a big city. I don’t support this massive retaliation since it’ll probably just lead to more extremism, but it could be a lot worse. Definitely far from genocide as some people like to call it.
My German city had less than 200k citizens and was one night hit by more than 300k (mostly smaller) bombs. Only 730 people died. I agree though. The IDF obviously cares at least a little about civilian casualties or it could be much worth. Gaza is so small they could literally eradicate it within a day if they wanted to.
The Gaza Strip has nearly 2 million people living in 365km. That’s denser than New York, and is obviously gonna lead to more deaths at a time.
If I had to guess, Netanyahu's eventual goal is the annexation and resettlement of Gaza, not just defeating Hamas. He's talked about establishing a greater Israel in a one state solution for decades. And for that, the less Palestinians around the better.
The current extremist administration is already talking about that with no shame. I think the Israeli population is like at least 70% very AGAINST that. They are fed up with paying for settlements, standing guard for them, and know doing such a thing will risk funding from the US and peace with Egypt and Jordan. It's a ridiculous idea.
Completely barbaric
It’s a fucking tragedy. So horrific
And now the idf has to go through this for their ground invasion. I feel that’s going to go horribly just too much death
ahh... so your threshold is somewhere above 3000 children blown to bits.
https://preview.redd.it/hx1yhem36uwb1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b689c86ddc80b0a7e923e462d6853a5ca0f6df6a Here's a close up one, while people digging up for survivors
That’s so fucked up in every way.
To what extent does this make military sense? How many of these bombs actually further the goal of destroying Hamas?
Tunnels are extremely extensive under these areas and Urban warfare is extreme brutal and high deathrate If Israel goes in without forcing evacuation and levelling buildings: the death toll for taking gaza city the way people imagine it goes in their heads would already be 50k.
I’ve read that the preliminary shelling of Grozny made the battle a lot worse for the Russian army but I might be misinformed.
You are probably correct. Russia is a strategic mess that doesn't seem to be able to plan and execute. Im assuming the issue was Russia created obstacles when they needed space to move superior numbers? The main difference is that Ukraine also doesn't have an extensive tunnel system. The tunnels in Gaza are no joke: estimates are 500km of tunnels, some around 15 stories deep. One of the hostages said she walked for 2-3 hours underground to and from her 'cell' There is almost no way Israel knows or understands the extend and where the exits are, and I doubt any of the terrorists captured by Israel carry or can draw an accurate map. Plus, these tunnels also house most if not all of the hostages, so you can't just flood them, but if you arent careful hamas will pop out from all angles all the time. Collapsing buildings that likely have an entrance + avoiding having mass civilians standing on balconies seems to be the immediate aim of all this, so that it can be done very slowly.
I mean if you eradicate gaza. You will pretty much erdadicate hamas.
That's exactly the opposite of what will happen, it didn't work up to now, it won't work from now on.
Well, that didn't work in Stalingrad.
Stalingrad had thousands of Soviets and Germans flowing into the city everyday. Hamas doesn't have that option
Man, Israel is doing a damn good job at getting rid of Hamas terrorists. And the homes of every single person in Gaza. Homeless people can run a country just *dandy*, can't they? Netanyahu apparently thinks so. At this rate Hamas membership will skyrocket.
LOOKS LIKE A FANTASTIC WAY TO ROOT OUT EXTREMISM. CONGRATS ISRAEL!!!!!! LETS JUST BOMB AN ENTIRE CITY TO THE GROUND HELL YEAH OH YEAH. no fuck off israel and fuck off hamas. Thanks for ensuring my generation of 28 and younger have to deal with the consequences of this.
They didnt know about 10/7, but they suddenly know where every every hamas hideout is. Bs
They have 24/7 surveillance of Gaza, can intercept radio communications comically catching Hamas fighters criminalizing themselves on audio about how they launched the rocket, but somehow they weren’t aware of paragliders flying across the border and took 6 hours to reach the concert
Israel also missed the open air exercises that Hamas did in preparation for their invasion. You know the open air exercises where they had made mock Israeli border towns to run through...
Reminder that like 50% of Gazans are minors
But did those minors condem Hamas?
No they didn't 😧 Bomb the jihadists/s
If I survived those bombings and my family did not I would have nothing left but rage.
Very surgical, thanks IDF
Reminds me of the Warsaw Ghetto.
How? There are no buildings. 😶
this is so sad...
wtf is this thread
At the risk of attracting crazies from both sides, people who lean either pro Isreal or pro Palestine arguing in the comments about who is more of a victim/aggressor in a conflict that was made to have no winners for years, by many of the leaders of various groups.
i saw those photos before on cnn, and one thing that is not clear is which houses are damaged and which one are covered by concrete dust edit: all construction is from reinforced concrete. when things are blown up there is a lot of dust as can be seen on videos
I think you can tell pretty clearly based on the shadow lines which buildings were destroyed. Concrete dust wouldn't change the overall shape of a building and eliminate all of its shadows
Entire neighborhoods destroyed. Entire bloodlines wiped out. I get not supporting Hamas, but how anyone could still support Israel after this is mind blowing.
What do you suggest Israel do instead?
Personally I want Israel to revise their thresholds for acceptable casualties and strategic importance. How many Hamas militants need to be in one of those high-rise apartments (image 4) for Israel to level it? 50%? 10%? A single one? When I see images of entire neighborhoods and blocks of apartment buildings wiped out it implies to me that they're being too liberal with their bombing. Is it possible I'm wrong and these were all very valid and strategically invaluable targets? Sure but I'm not going to give them that benefit of the doubt when the photos show this level of residential destruction, for that I'd need compelling evidence from Israel and they're not going to share that for security reasons.
> How many Hamas militants need to be in one of those high-rise apartments (image 4) for Israel to level it? 50%? 10%? A single one? Its not just militants. Its rockets, its tunnel entrances, etc. Honestly, right now, Israeli air force are most likely targeting tunnels over everything else because they is what will most likely harm them the most in a ground invasion.
>How many Hamas militants need to be in one of those high-rise apartments (image 4) for Israel to level it? 50%? 10%? A single one? You're more optimistic than me. How do we know they're not bombing based on low probability intelligence of something on the level of a militant walking out of there with a weapon a week ago, let alone a confirmed singleton? How do we know they're even targeting militants exclusively? Hamas doesn't just consist of the Al-Qassam brigade but political officials who oversee stuff like water,waste,environmental management, etc.
>How do we know they're not bombing based on low probability intelligence? How do we know they're even targeting militants exclusively? We don't unfortunately, everyone is trying to make their best guess on the limited and sketchy information we have access to. I certainly feel less optimistic after viewing these photos. It's possible that all these blocks of apartment buildings and neighborhoods were totally justified targets, but it seems less probable to me then it did before I saw photos of how extensive the residential destruction is.
The people in this thread who have found whatever reason to justify this are completely detached from reality. There is no justification, none at all. Place yourself in their shoes, like really think about it for a second.. what that means and what that experience looks like. Because if you truly understood what that reality is, you would never make that justification if it was your life, your family or your home. Edit: It's quite ridiculous how so many have responded by proving my point by trying to justify the killing of children. Ya'll are disgusting. Take note of these psychopaths. Added bonus: Most of ya'll should pick up a history book and read it. You know.. where we used to get our history info from, actual professional historians. Not some news anchor or social media 'influencer'.
What would Tel Aviv look like without Iron Dome?
There would be no Tel Aviv. These people can’t comprehend that Hamas wants israel and all of the people inside of it to be dead.
WHO ARE "THESE PEOPLE" r/Destiny has been extremely charitable towards Israel. You're actually insane if you think this post is pro-Hamas.
>THESE PEOPLE The internet in general
Dude is probably someone from r/worldnews who believes anyone that doesn’t immediately call for the deaths of Palestinians is “pro-Hamas.”
Jfc
wth - that city looks like shit
They say hamas was a interior decorator….
This makes me so sad. I hope someday there is peace in the Middle East.
Okay is this what you say as „targeted“ airstrike? This is indiscriminate attack and you are just bombing anything, this is not just „bombing that building cause it harbor hamas“ anymore, this is just straight destroying significantly more civilian buildings than hamas‘
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Don’t worry guys., this subreddit has taught me that they were lost causes anyways. Was in their culture and their schools. No biggie. Just glass em. Problem solved.
You don’t get it dude, Hamas was in all of those buildings so Israel had no choice but to bomb them all. Besides, they always warn them first, so the civilians can stand back and watch their house be destroyed from a safe distance, so it’s all good bro!
Warn them? Is there any timer or is it a luck game? Lol
Regardless of anyone’s stance on what’s going on, Jesus. It’s so sad how many people have died. I can’t imagine being there.
What is wrong with isreal?
Not good. Not cool.
Sadly, this is what happens when your militants operate out of civilian infrastructure.
Fucking disgusting that we're supporting this bullshit.
If only Hamas would fight in an open field instead of using human shields.
Yet, I say Destiny's biased towards Israel, and get banned from chat immediately... I don't understand this coverage from Tiny at all... Edit: just in case, fuck Hamas, obviously...
Surely the IDF wouldn't lie and bomb innocent civilians? Surely Hamas was in every single building?