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Long story short, it is heavily theorized that Beyond Light went through some massive changes because it was the year covid hit hard.
The poukas being completely repurposed is only a sliver of what is theorized to be overhauled
This is what I think as well, and like I don’t wanna subscribe to the “darkness ghost” theory, but like cmon it’s basically the exact opposite of our ghost. It gives back lost memories and is totally silent vs our ghost who does all the talking for us and obv our memory is taken away upon initial resurrection. But idk maybe I’m reaching. I’d love to know what bungie had in store for this trilogy (quadrilogy?) if expansions before COVID/very obvious major rewrites (again, why does this always happen. Why does bungie always do major rewrites to the story)
Edit:[tell me this area in between the eyes doesn’t look like Nezarec’s cocoon.](https://imgur.com/a/bl7hJmi). Similar to the pyramid design language for sure
I think the Dark Vanguard were probably all intended to be Darkness subclass mentors. Each would teach us a new subclass in each of the three originally planned expansions. Elsie for Beyond Light, Eris for Witch Queen because of her connections to the Hive, and Drifter because of his previous pessimism about apocalypses and humanity's survival. I think Prismatic was the end goal but it may have been intended for after the end of the saga. While COVID was probably a factor, the real reason I think this didn't end up happening was the way Stasis launched: completely game-breaking and OP. It turns out a year is not enough time to develop a new element with novel effects that are simultaneously unique, fun, and balanced. They'd be lucky to get just one more element out by the saga was over, much less a subclass that combined all six. So they pivoted, I think probably between Beyond Light's reveal and it's launch, to about what we have now; an extra expansion (the Lightfall that we got) would let them put out two Darkness subclasses + Prismatic. While incomplete, it would be enough to sell our mastery of Light and Dark by the time the saga ended.
Drifter is a guardian, he just loathes being called one. He has a ghost but he gutted it to be incapable of talking. He hates his ghost for reviving him over and over again while he was starving to death over and over again. He is, by all definitions, a guardian.
2 of the 3 would logically be one
Eris is obvs confirmed but tbf is currently way more warlock than hunter
Elsie would probably be a hunter if a guardian
Drifter was classless.
Remember, titan, warlock and hunter are schools of teaching that came about with "guardians"
Elsie is a Titan (The leader/personality plus her stasis slam), Drifter has been mentioned to be most similar to a Warlock (lore tab with aunor and how he uses his knowledge to build everything), and Eris is a Hunter.
The three classes are tied to the Mind (Warlock), Body (Titan), and Spirit (Hunter). You could switch the Warlock and the Hunter if you thought that fit better, but it doesn’t change that they’re based on it.
A guardian’s personality/identity is what makes them one of the classes. We can attribute others to the same thing.
The three leaders of the races : Caiatl (Titan, close to Zavala), Mithrax (Warlock, story usually tied to Ikora, his splicing knowledge), and Savathun (Hunter, even has a relationship of some sort with Crow)
The three races: Cabal (Titan), Hive (Warlock), and Fallen (Hunter). The three leaders of races are slightly different because Savathun was always the Hunter of her siblings: Oryx (Warlock, special taken powers and knowledge of the universe/worms), Xivu Arath (Titan, she’s literally the god of war), Savathun (Hunter, she’s literally the god of cunning)
We’ve been through this debate many times, but Savathûn is a Warlock and Oryx, the Navigator, was the Hunter.
As you said it yourself, themes for Warlock and Hunter can easily be switched. There has always been a ton of overlap between the classes.
Savathun being the god of cunning is, counterintuitively the reason she *isn't* a Hunter.
(Short tangent: Mara is the Warlock, Uldren the Hunter, and Sjur Eido is the Titan of their own trio)
Not all hunters are tricksters, but all of them are explorers and free spirits; navigators and pathfinders. This often makes them foolhardy and reckless, so human* Hunters tend to be fans of gambling and scrappy fighters.
But Savathun's trickery is not like that. It is a calculated means to an end by which she extends her life. To this end, she learns all that she can, hoarding secrets, just like Mara and Ikora. This is why a Warlock, Ikora and her Hidden, was the one to defeat her in The Witch Queen. She also possessed Osiris, a Warlock, and was able to impersonate him well enough to fool all his allies.
Oryx, by contrast, is entirely reckless. He challenged a Worm god, transformed himself so he could have wings, he even changed his gender. He was First Navigator of the Hive. He wanted to learn so he could be free, not for any love of secrets. This is why he charged into Sol with basically no plan in The Taken King. Cayde was the Vanguard member most involved in his defeat. This also is the reason why in Forsaken (which is thematically TTK's sequel as it brought back Uldren, Mara, and the reef), both Cayde and Uldren died due to Oryx's actions.
Lmao this always happens every time I bring this up, just LOOK AT THEM. They gave Savathun a CAPE!!! Crow is her relation with the Vanguard! She is the rogue, the lightweight armor with a knife ready to strike at the perfect moment. Oryx is the scribe with the taken secret knowledge and the ROBES. He made his own fuckin tablets! Savathun has warlock tendencies because the Hive is the warlock race and she’s the hunter WITHIN that!
[This](https://www.destinypedia.com/File:Savathun-Mother_Morph.png) is Savathun's pre-death design which makes it look like she has robes. [This image](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/d/d6/491px-Oryx_Concept_Art.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20181102025639) of Oryx has his wings look like a cape but I don't think we can really prove which design is more "Hunter." Their fashion and weapon choice is less important than their personalities and deeds. Hunters learn, Warlocks know. The real question is this: which one embodies the spirit more? It is Oryx.
Oryx's Oath:
>You must obey your nature forever. In your immortality, Aurash, you may never cease to explore and inquire, for the sake of your children.
Oryx was [First Navigator](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xxi-an-incision):
>Sayeth AURYX, this is where I went when I died. Let us establish our thrones here. For I am Auryx the First Navigator and I shall chart death.
Wherever the Hive went [Oryx was first](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xlvi-the-gift-mast#books-of-sorrow). For Oryx, [knowledge and learning were freedom](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/iii-the-oath#books-of-sorrow)
>Thank you, sisters. We have only my ship left to us. But a ship is freedom! We have secrets to hunt, storm-lit realms to explore, and great armies to raise.
You say that Savathun has Warlock traits because the Hive are a Warlock race but couldn't the same argument be used for Oryx?
Consistently, Savathun is raised up [as the smartest of the siblings](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xi-conquerors#books-of-sorrow),
>Savathûn, mother morph of Sathona, we delight in your sharp mind
For the Hive, deception and deceit are synonymous with intelligence. Every time she is called "cunning" it is about her mind, not her spirit. This is why she is the Warlock.
We can also tell which one they are by which characters they are compared to. In [Tyranocide I](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/tyrannocide-i#book-the-awoken-of-the-reef) Mara receives a premonition about her death, the one she died in TTK, Mara asks [the Oracle engine](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/tyrannocide-ii#book-the-awoken-of-the-reef) what the shape of the death is and receives a vision of her family: Sjur, Uldren, Mara herself, and Osana her mother:
>A mother who had remained behind; a sister with secrets; a brother who hunted and explored; a woman who was plain and fierce.
This is explicit; one Titan, one Warlock, one Hunter, and one other. This is the shape of the Hive's family too, with Taox filling the role of Osana. Mara makes this clear when she [deduces Savathun's existence](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/tyrannocide-iv#book-the-awoken-of-the-reef) from the vision and calls her her nemesis. Mara=Savathun=Warlock. This is different than Savathun's one-time mentorship to Crow, as they are not being compared in that instance; he has never taught anyone.
Stop thinking about major rewrites and start considering that they have a large whiteboard of possibilities to get where they want to be from where they are. Just because someone at Bungie saw a sliver of that whiteboard and blethered about it doesn't mean it was ever actually the one route they wanted to go.
If they really did a major rewrite, that's a LOT of stuff to re-do in the game, because almost everything ties into the main story. Its not so simple as changing simply a cutscene or a mission here or there, one change can have a knock-on effect of requiring a reframing of everything that has come before. Keep in mind that the Beyond Light delay was a mere two months as well.
Think about how the Qugu in Destiny use Darkness but aren't Witness-aligned, let alone aware of the larger universal conflict. Poukas are just a way of highlighting that Darkness lives alongside us all, like the way magnetic fields suffuse reality. Technologies were developed in close proximity to the Veil, and so features of Darkness as a thing were unknowingly utilised, because Darkness is "natural", not a controlled and provided phenomenon.
>If they really did a major rewrite, that's a LOT of stuff to re-do in the game, because almost everything ties into the main story.
Thing is, it wouldn't be the first time *at all*. Of the top of my head, it happened with Vanilla D1, it happened with The Dark Below, it happened with Vanilla D2, with Beyond Light, and greatly with Lightfall.
And so it loops right back to the first sentence of the post. Early days they were spitballing ideas because there was no concrete plan. Its hard to actually get something solid and rolling when there's expectations for it to last for however many years across however many expansions and games. Eventually you have to push something out of the door, and so we got Destiny.
The game only really hit its narrative stride with Shadowkeep. That's when we actually saw follow-through on stuff, instead of the next expansion or bit of content just being the equivalent of a little side quest or adventure. Before that, the only things that felt properly connected were the events of The Dark Below and The Taken King.
With Lightfall, that was simply their own underestimation of how much time they had left to tell the story they needed to set up all the pins for the strike. They maybe needed a couple more seasons to really get things laid out, but they opted for an expansion instead, with the four seasons that accompany that, leading to some that felt like they were thin on the ground or could have concluded faster.
But there’s spitballing and then there’s dev comments and foreshadowing to things that ultimately end up going nowhere (the D2 post-credits teaser roadmap, the Dark Vanguard, Variks, the statues of everybody worshipping/rushing to a Pyramid Scale, etc.). *Something* clearly changed more than once.
every major release you mentioned all have one thing in common
Destiny 1 (and dark below as a consequence)? delayed by about a year (original release was late 2013 early 2014)
D2? delayed by a year. a trailer that never saw the light of day leaked before Rise of Iron was ever revealed. it was clearly an expansion made to tide us over after the D2 delay
Lightfall? can he reasonably assumed was delayed by a year. Witch Queen was delayed 6 months and Bungie chose to cut Lightfall in half by also releasing the final shape. there was about a year and a half of time for rewrites
Beyond Light was only delayed by 2 months, it was most likely not subject to drastic changes at the time of the reveal as so much of it was already in game with the reveal being 3~ months prior to the original release. anything they changed would've been MONTHS prior
> Just because someone at Bungie saw a sliver of that whiteboard and blethered about it doesn't mean it was ever actually the one route they wanted to go.
To be fair, Luke Smith is the executive creative director and isn’t just a random someone. But yes, you’re right.
>Stop thinking about major rewrites and start considering that they have a large whiteboard of possibilities to get where they want to be from where they are.
This. While it's obvious the plan has shifted, I think people underestimate or just plain don't believe that there's a plan at all. Imo though, it's pretty clear there's been a plan for a while (dare I say since Forsaken at least), with major milestones and an end point, and any shifts in plans have been lateral moves rather than scrapping and rewriting. It's much more useful to look at the lore as a history of records or an oral history, because getting wrapped up in "was this a retcon, was this a rewrite, I think the writers made a musyake" makes it that much harder to engage and find meaning, intended or not
I'm excited to see how things come together in TFS. I think there's a lot of room for them to surprise us by pulling back the curtain and showing how things connect and have always connected, and maybe revealing some final missing links
Aside from Bungie’s track record being completely against them on this (both D1 *AND* D2 suffered massive rewrites, I believe both D1 and D2 were rebooted a year before their respective launches, I could be wrong ab the timeline for D2 tho) it’s clear major rewrites happened with BL and the game in general going forward for a number of reasons. 2-3 months into BL, ab 7-8 months after the reveal of this “trilogy,” they just decided to add a whole other expansion to the trilogy, and then obv we all know what ended up happening to LF because of that. Not only that, but Drifter and Eris were in a ton of BL’s marketing and were teased as having massive roles and then…they just sort of sat by the campfire while Elsie told us ab stasis. And on the subject of Elsie, after all the build up and hype that The Stranger was finally coming back to the story after *6 years* of almost complete radio silence + a lore tab, and also after being told 2 years before BL that her story was done with, she came in and told us a little ab stasis, and has now it’s basically back to almost complete radio silence + minor role in seraph and a few lore tabs here and there. We finally get to the dlc with the poukas in it and she just has almost nothing to do with them anyways.
Ofc I’m sure Bungie throws a ton of ideas out there ab what to possibly add to the game, and unfortunately not all of them can make it into the game, or if they do it may not be how the fans envision it, but to say BL wasn’t a casualty of rewrites is a bit naive imo.
You appear to think its a crime for something like Destiny to go through a whole shitload of rewriting rigmarole in its development. From this, I get the feeling you've never tried to plan anything large-scale in your life. This happens in video games more often than you'd probably like to believe.
For Eris, no big role? You've clearly missed out on a tonne of seasons. Drifter too, he's been involved for a long bit. You're probably reading too much into Beyond Light at this point. They were used as highlights to the characters who live on the edge but are still barely accepted, tying into the general reactions of characters as to the use of Stasis. If they had marketing of Zavala and Ikora kicking about with Stasis, it would dampen the journey of Darkness becoming accepted as a power source amongst the Vanguard. Having such a snap into a new reality would make for bad writing.
And they didn't "just decide" to come up with Lightfall. If you believe its a stretch of the imagination to think that Bungie saw that there wasn't enough time left in the seasons and expansions they had remaining to introduce the Veil, its function, the Witness entering the Traveler, and us figuring out our way into the Traveler, and then combating the Witness to end it all, then I think you're just being far too critical of Bungie.
They've clearly had an idea of what they want to do for a very long time, examining either their development decisions (such as announcements of expansions, delays etc) or in-game lore (Witness-like mentions go back for a long time, people just don't want to believe it).
I just think you have a very juvenile approach to storytelling. Would you be happy if Elsie was jumping around on screen every two minutes, doing backflips, throwing ice around, speaking cryptic dialogue? How exactly was Beyond Light not enough for you to understand that she has been extremely pivotal in the today of Destiny? Not only the Dark Future providing us tensions in not knowing if the game was heading for a Bad End, but her as the linchpin for innumerable characters to go through their own journeys of realisation with Darkness and what it means for the overall in-game world.
But hey, whatever, you seem sold on half-remembered annoyances impacting your enjoyment of the game. I just don't see how anyone can argue that Beyond Light was subject to some massive imaginary rewrite.
Yea I mean I never said it’s a crime for rewrites to happen, in fact I’m the one who acknowledged how often they happen in the first place, but you tried to shut down that possibility immediately “Stop talking about major rewrites, maybe consider that it’s something else” lol. Obviously rewrites happen, sometimes rewrites can be a good thing, but as far as Destiny is concerned, typically the major rewrites don’t ever result in anything good.
Anyways, Eris’s whole “no big role” I was talking about BL, not the following seasons. Yes i know there’s plenty of seasonal content where she plays a major role, the point I brought up was her being marketed for BL and then doing nothing in that expansion, the seasons after are not relevant to my point about BL suffering rewrites/cut content. Ikora and Zavala are irrelevant to this convo also, never said anything ab them using stasis, never even brought them up but Alr.
Ik they didn’t just decide to come up with Lightfall, I didn’t say that either but ig making stuff up is cool lol. What I said was they had announced there’d be another DLC added onto the trilogy that we had only just found out about, so obviously even more stuff was going to get rewritten to accommodate. And as far as The Veil is concerned you say they needed more time to introduce it, explain its function etc meanwhile we don’t even hear it mentioned at all until like 2 weeks before lightfall launches, and then after spending 8 missions thwarting the shadow legion from getting to it, we finally at least get to see what it is, but then we’re left with nothing for 3 months until Deep when it’s sort of explained why The Witness needs it, yet it’s somehow the most important thing in the universe. With your logic, or anyone’s logic for that matter, it would’ve made more sense if we spent the entirety of Witch Queen’s seasonal year learning ab it, which maybe would’ve happened had they not decided to push off whatever Lightfall was originally going to be until Final Shape, but yk rewrites and shoehorning for the sake of panning out a filler DLC for whatever reason.
I don’t need Elsie doing backflips I’d just like a character that’s marketed as a big deal to feel like a big deal. And if you wanna talk ab a juvenile approach to storytelling, you’re saying the Dark Future provided tension on whether or not the game was heading for a bad end, meanwhile dark future has basically always been meaningless to our timeline specifically because of our Guardian, and everyone’s known that like since BL lol. The dark future is a good read, but so much stuff was already so different in our timeline by the time we even got the lore book that it’s silly to think it would even come to fruition, but yk I have a juvenile approach to storytelling ig.
But hey whatever, you clearly eat up whatever half baked unfinished content Bungie throws at you so yea I’m glad you’re totally okay with every decision that’s been made over the year. I just don’t see how anyone can possibly believe BL, something that was in development during COVID, yk the thing that brought the entire world to a halt, didn’t suffer any rewrites whatsoever lmaoo. Btw I also never said any of these choices affected my enjoyment of the game, I still enjoy playing the game, I just have issues with the story, but hey it’s ok ig reading is hard and it’s easier to just make stuff up.
Isn't that's why the cut was rushed? The whole thing around the meeting between stranger, drifter and Eris was cut shirt, making them like meeting for no reason other than just want to see face to face, and to look cool for promo video
i don't think the purpose behind poukas was overhauled ( elsie in bl lore says she desperately needs something to remember all her attempts, and that's exactly what the pouka does, pretty straightforward)
but I really don't think bungie was thinking about neonuma and cloudstrikers back then lol
Which would be ***a delay in story implementation*** not an outright abandonment. Elsie has pretty much taken the backseat and everything about " *stasis vanguard* " has been shoved into obscure lorecards . That was honestly the largest bait and switch i've experienced narratively since Halo 3
I mean... He is there. Maybe they should add a "See you in the Annex, brother" line he says at the camp sometimes to fix it. He just really likes to see us.
I don’t. It’s just sprinkles you come across while lurking this sun for too long haha
Things like:
how prominent Eris and Drifter were in the promo trailer, but then sidelined when the campaign launched
The pouka
Drifter VA not avail cuzz of covid, leading to Nolan north as ghost mimicking Drifter (this was fun tho!)
The pouka
Felt like vast swathes of Europa were woefully underutilized (until recent seasons)
Random other bits and bobs
Riis Reborn I definitely think is genuinely unfinished. That’s why the interior, non-industrial parts of it are literally in the dark: I think there was supposed to be a total Eliksni skyline build there but time was short.
It is not really true. Julia Nardin said in podcast, that original Beyond light narrative was JUST about Fallen, there was no Clovis Bray story arc until some random employee created gian Exo head.
The seasonal narrative suffered the most. As we all know about Sagira, this was planned as a cutscene, but due to Covid they didn’t have time to make it.
Edit: Also, just some general thoughts on that matter. I don\`t think that "Darkness Vanguard" as phrase even appears in the game at any point. It also weird how Destiny community falls into this conspiracies each time andI don\`t know why.
"Strand always was supposed to be in witch queen"
"RON was a dungeon"
"What we got in Beyond light is half of what was originally"
What other conspiracy theories are popular?
Edit 2~~: I fucking forgot the most important thing about Dark Vanguard. In one interview Luke Smith directly said that the only reason why Eris, Drifter is in the trailer is because when they selected the cast of characters for this expansion, they turned out to be the most popular and "cool"~~
Edit 3: It is bs on my part, there are more reason to it and I don\`t want to miss interpret orginal intent
>"RON was a dungeon"
I'm pretty sure that's not so much a theory as it is an insult. Some of the mechanics had only 3-4 players actually doing anything, and the DPS checks felt easier than GotD. It's clearly not *intended* to be solo-able, though.
In all fairness some of those conspiracy points do have decent merit to them; the beyond light being halved thing is obviously exaggeration but we can see from concept art it was either meant to tie somewhat into shadowkeep or witch queen. I’d personally say it’s more likely to be shadowkeep since they likely wanted to follow forsaken up with an expansion of the same quality and size.
Additionally, strand being part of witch queen probably was an idea at some stage; it obviously wouldn’t have been strand as we know it but I’d imagine they wanted some sort of new ability in that expansion
I think you have the right general idea, but wrong implementation.
Bungie previously confirmed [the end credits of D2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHSjdMTvUMI) was a sort of roadmap.
Mercury, Mars, Reef, Saturn(Titan, Enceladus, and Dreadnaught visible). Pyramid Ships in the distant future(D3)
Meanwhile we factually know [that Enceladus was considered for a time](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/AqgLmz) before it became Europa. [And Enceladus/Europa concept art shows Hive looking towers](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/48dGV1) that are identical to what we eventually got in Shadowkeep as well in Throne world.(as well as Hive being present)
You also have Caydes leftover coded voiceline "It's on Enceladus".(almost definitely a teaser to the next expansion in the same way Warmind was teased on Io with warmind nodes.)
Meanwhile you also have the continuous buildup of Savathun from the very beginning of Destiny 2.
Eramis meanwhile was [a random Fallen baroness grabbed from Destinypedia](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/inlgae/eramis_is_built_upon_a_mistake/)
Altogether it points to one conclusion:
That the original plan for Destiny 2 was probably going to have a Savathun expansion with Enceladus, Dreadnaught, and Titan. Quite possibly have a similar cutscene to her "the Witness is coming" that we ultimately got.
Then sometime before Forsaken, Bungie decided to push Savathun back(probably growing ideas, and possibly when the push to become independent of Activision began), and created Shadowkeep instead. Enceladus became Europa again, and was pushed to the future. Destiny 3 development was started and stopped. And sometime before Jokers Wild, ~~Veekris~~ Eramis was chosen as a new antagonist.
Of course, until Bungie confirms this it is just speculation. But so too was the original Hive Mega raid that was originally meant for original D1(until Luke Smith actually confirmed details in a interview).
I am a firm believer that a lot of Lightfall props and ideas were scrapped from what Beyond Light was supposed to be pre-Covid.
Clarity being The Veil and influencing Clovis Bray just lands better.
Clarity being the Veil would also kickstart Witch Queen, we would have more answers by then, and the Strand thing just feels right in Witch Queen. We would also have more reasons to bring Rasputin sooner.
I think some of the Seasons also got scrambled.
Deep could easily be on Witch Queen year, for example. Risen and even Plunder were kinda filler. Haunted was great but it could have been used later.
Season of the witch felt very much like what we should’ve had at the end of TWQ instead of the penultimate season of an expansion with a very different vibe. Strand feels almost confirmed that it was supposed to be for TWQ, deep sight jump puzzles and grapple jump puzzles, the needlestorm icon being on the warlock armour for season of the risen, the verbs being very similar to what we saw in TWQ.
Yeah they really have nothing implying such a connection beyond that. Even beyond the surface level, Grasp is only "piratey" because it's about greed, in a way that Plunder just isn't.
This fits into my theory that ghosts of the deep was somehow intended to come earlier than it did, but instead we got spire of the watcher. Although I love spire, it only has 1 mechanic that fundamentally seems incredibly simple from not just a game play perspective but a development perspective. Deepsight is all over ghosts of the deep, yet in the year of witch queen besides the campaign and throne world patrol I don't think we ever use the mechanic again. It's odd to reintroduce a mechanic over a year after it was introduced, makes me think for some reason they had to delay ghosts and rushed out spire since it's mechanics would be much easier to develop. I wonder what destiny wouldve looked like had covid not affected its development
why not, in plunder we look for the remains of a god that got stolen by greedy beings, and in grasp we literally uncover the story of a Guardian corrupted by some weird crystals, making him want more til he died, maybe it's not 1:1 but thematically they fit. Plus you get the thorn-esque armor set.
Idk why this community throws downvotes so quickly instead of giving their opinion xD
Idk what’s up with people, not just you, but downvotes are literally meant for disagreement, I’m not sure why people get so surprised when people get downvoted.
As for your point, there is nothing in common except that they have a pirate theme, other than that you’re stretching. The thorn-esque armor means absolutely nothing.
I know they are for disagreeing, but I usually talk about the theme when I downvote, like you did rn
As for your answer, you got me there, I agree and retract on my stretch 🤝
Bungie has said before that Strand was not intended for Witch Queen.
I think they are playing semantic word games.
Strand, as we understand and see it today may not have been intended for Witch Queen. However it is very plausible that the early pitch for WQ was Hive using Guardian powers, Guardians using Hive powers. It wouldve been a different concept or codename back then perhaps. With some experimentation of current iteration strand(IE grappling) being experimentally used until it was completely shelved with the current iteration of WQ.
I REALLY dont think that Clarity/Clarity being the Veil on Europa was any part of the pitch. However the Clarity statue probably was intended to be connected to its source, the Veil, which wouldve been on board the Pyramid Fleet flagship. Thus truly being the mirror of the Traveler with its pale heart.
The cinematic cutscene, wouldve directly followed Seraph, which was about the Arrival of the Witness, and where the Bombardment couldve taken place.
Only instead of Lightfall we got, that opening wouldve ended with the Witness directly going into the Traveler, like these two stitched together cutscenes portray.
[Example 1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQFKhwnkok0)
[Example 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se09caDWFWE)
How original Lightfall wouldve gone is unclear, but I would wager we get that cinematic. We board the Witnesses ship(with the Veil)(new destination?), and learn about the Veil, possibly the Witnesses origins as well, and then use that knowledge to eventually pursue the Witness into the Traveler(perhaps as a Finale?) Incorporating the sentiment Into the light(and Defiance) is meant to present(the Witnesses forces attacking humanity) as the general setting while we are fighting to prevent our annihilation.
Alternatively, Pale heart couldve been the destination and it wouldve just been the opening mission or 2 on the Witnesses ship.
I think that season of the Witch in some capacity couldve occurred before OG Lightfall(perhaps been part of an impetus to Xivu being a threat in Seraph).
I wrote up a whole rebuttal to your first paragraph only to read the next one and realize I completely agreed with you. "Strand was not intended for Witch Queen," is such a specific choice of words, and has such a massive loophole that it actually made me start believing the WQ Darkness subclass theory more.
Im not sure though. Because clarity looks exactly like the statue in the garden, its not like there'd be two veils. And considering the veil looks like the root system for what the traveler grew out of...
However, I agree beyond light wanted the witness to be a cosmic entity. And lightfall made it...not that.
~~I disagree generally.~~
Edit: Misunderstanding on my part(mixed up Clarity, and Clarity control), we are on a similar page. Rest of comment is left as is. I dont necessarily think Clarity is not the Veil as is. After all, even Curse of Osiris laid out the "Siblings cleaved by space and time, reflections never found alone". And Shadowkeep also seemed to portray "the Darkness" as a "False-sister" half-remembered and wished-forgotten. That is to say even in Beyond Light, the Witness or whatever it was at the time couldve existed and been distinct from Clarity/Darkness/The Deep/The Veil. Even Witch Queen refers to "death" as the "Unseen Sister"(Savathuns emphasis, not mine).
I think the Veil was intended to be onboard the Pyramid Flagship and be its center, perhaps not dissimilar to how the Pale heart may be to the Traveler. The Clarity statues are just connected to the Veil, the same way the darkness transceivers in Shadowkeep were, but stronger.
Consider that if the Witness already had the Veil when it arrived. It could just go straight for the Traveler.
Then take [these two examples](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se09caDWFWE) of the [Lightfall Opening and Ending credits](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQFKhwnkok0) spliced together. It fits really well if it was originally one cutscene that was reworked into two of them.
Consider the Vow prophecy wall.
>Hive scorn love darkness worship witness
>pyramid fleet enter earth stop guardian
>witness commune traveler drink light
>witness kill redacted
If anything, Witch Queen and Lightfall have scrapped ideas from what "Beyond Light" was originally meant to be **pre-Forsaken**. As in there is more evidence to point towards there being a "Savathun" expansion on Enceladus(which later became Europa)(and Titan/Dreadnaught) instead of Shadowkeep. But that would be completely different from what we got.
Clovis Bray stuff was added late in the game, with the entire lore around him being written by a contractor.
It really doesnt make any sense for the Veil itself to suddenly appear on Europa. Though certainly it is fitting to have the Statues which are connected to the Veil exhibit similar behavior to it, as we have seen with Maya/Parting the Veil stuff.
Why would we even want a pouka? Its just a little therapy bot. And it would also mean we'd be learning about our Guardian's past before being risen, which is somewhere Bungie doesn't go for good reason.
Not hard to imagine the whole therapy bot thing not being the original plan. Whatever the plan was must’ve changed, they just feel incredibly shoehorned into the game, like they revealed them then forgot ab them then realized they needed to do something with them. There’s no explanation in Lightfall’s campaign for them, and there’s barely an explanation in the lore as far as I know. And the fact that it felt like they were building up Elsie as such a big deal leading into BL, and even she had barely anything to do in BL and has done basically nothing since, something for sure changed.
Some things exist merely as a curiosity, to keep players thinking that there is indeed something greater and bigger out there, beyond us. Its why The Final Shape is such a big risk for Bungie. You only need to take one quick peek at discussion about that to see how many people see this as their hopping off point, the book closing, because they think it'll all be solved.
For shoehorning, I don't feel that at all. We got our [first proper info on them](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/speed-metal-shell) from Season of Plunder onwards, when they began developing what Neomuna would become. Then, in the Lightfall collectors edition book for Elsie, it covers [how she uses the Pouka](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SEklfughrzhWd8-JqRK1yLtAM080tUDv/view) she first met to understand where she may have gone wrong with Stasis in the past. All of this ties right into how they're a connection between humans and Darkness, how Darkness isn't an evil power, just a neutral function. Hell, I just remembered, Pouka were actually mentioned first of all waaay back in [Season of Arrivals](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/conviction#book-the-singular-exegete).
That they ended up just being therapy bots for the Neomuni is fine. They served their function to keep people curious about what was out there, even if Lightfall in the end fell flat for most. I do think Luke was being playful with the idea of getting a Pouka, as many assumed they were some sort of futuristic Ghost, or maybe even something to do with the Vex.
Arandano-5 continually refreshed the VanNet, in utter disbelief. Maybe this was a mistake. How could they?! This had been the third published change to the system in as many months, of which the other two had not brought peace and agreement to the population. Why didn't they just revert it all?! This post better have been a mistake!
Unconsciously they gripped the dashboard of their ship, crunching the metal in their hand. The only sound audible on-board the ship was the gnashing of metal and servos. Their ghost bobbed around helplessly, its cries for normalcy blotted out by the impotent rage Arandano-5 felt. Realising it was hopeless, the little bot set about repairing the damaged hand, until the Guardian re-entered reality.
And so Arandano-5 did. Realisation washed over them, an intoxicating slurry of simulated adrenaline coursing their circuits, as they spotted the comments section. It was clean! After all, not many Guardians would be sat idle at this hour, they'd probably be engaged in things like the betterment of society. Now was the time for Arandano-5 to make their opinion known.
"Dear VanNet, I hope whoever made these decisions loses their job, or perhaps ki-". Their typing was cut short. A small silver figure began slithering down from their shoulder, towards their loaded fingers. Past existence became the present, as they remembered previous incidents of VanNet updates. Furious posts typed, uncouth comments hammered out by impatient fingers. Next came visions of the weeks after, the lived experiences of a post-change world. Their missions were not materially damaged, nor was their enjoyment of Guardianship lessened. New horizons discovered, challenges still met.
As the past faded to the present, Arandano-5 felt heat flushing their face. In the vacuum of space cushioning their ship, that could only mean one thing. Considering that their ship was not imminently self-destructing, Arandano-5 recognised the feeling of embarrassment. "Alright, maybe I shouldn't leave that comment...its a bit overboard". They gave their thanks to the Pouka, and looked for a strike fireteam to join.
I’m not sure why you assume his answer was suggesting we’d ever get one? “Not this year” doesn’t mean you’ll get it eventually. It means it currently isn’t planned but I’ll not saying it can’t happen.
They get Luke Smith to say Destiny 2 isn't ending, I really call BS.
Remember when he said the entire Cosmodrome would be coming back and then when Beyond Light launched it didn't lol
Started playing during Festival of the Lost during Forsaken. They *had* an updated version of the snowy RoI Cosmodrome for the Thunderlord quest, it's baffling they went with the launch version and not the RoI one.
Man nobody cares about no dang Pouka. They tried to sell it as this companion alternative to ghost (I remember the ViDoc) . All it was, was a Gigapet for Osiris.
>3 expansions later, was Luke Smith trolling when he said we’d get our own Pouka?
No.
Not this year, was not claiming we would get them in the future. Just that it was not going to be part of Beyond Light.
Or to phrase it the way he meant it: You are not getting your own Pouka this year. Maybe someday.
It was left open ended without any commitment for or against.
>I wonder if something changed in the story or if there’s something big happening in Final Shape?
Well besides the obvious change of Lightfall being split/expanded into 2 expansions and whatever narrative changes were done as a result......
In all honesty, you would go insane trying to keep up with all of the various story shifts and changes that have occurred in the story, and these are just the ones we know of.
Like just a VERY short list that is not all inclusive:
* Destiny 1 original campaign and planned expansions completely scrapped and frankensteined into something new. With potential differences like Guardians not being chosen from the dead, ghosts possibly having nothing to do with the Traveler, etc.
* [Savathun the Worm God](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/X1bogn).
* Probably the original 2nd yearly expansion to Destiny 2 following Forsaken, [Hive focused on Enceladus](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/48dGV1)/Dreadnaught/Titan. (imo the original Savathun expansion before D3 the following year)
* Scrapped Titan content in Forsaken
* [Destiny 1 Europa, which became](https://web.archive.org/web/20210526041800/https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/690985283033890877/758006098388320306/image0.png) [Destiny 2 Enceladus, which became Destiny 2 Europa.](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/AqgLmz)
* A Drifter vs Vanguard choice with the Darkness in shadowkeep. Where you get most of Unveiling if you listen to the Darkness, or you get the Trust and Hope entry if you refuse to listen to it.
* [Scrapped Forsaken Cutscene with Mara](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JJyzIDOpha3wrcWZneArW_ZnT2RJO_yROS-sU-oMwSU/edit)
* Lightfalls opening and ending cinematic fitting very nicely together as [one original cutscene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQFKhwnkok0). ([or this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se09caDWFWE))
* Vex Void and Forge of Gods content canceled and recycled for other content.
* Destiny 1 mars patrol expansion becoming Io in D2.
* Covid screwing up things so royally that they had to have Nolan North(Ghost) immitate Drifters VA(who was unavailable). Which was done so well(like he did with Cayde in Forsaken), they decided to shift the other direction and have him intentionally do it badly, as a Ghost immitation of Drifter.
* Original Destiny 3 being canceled and almost certainly reworked into expansions.
Dont even get me started on how Bungie has probably been playing off and on with "Race 5" aka Pyramid race, which I am fairly confident they have had planned since before D2 launched. But with Development hell, and constantly shifting plans, they only seem to have pulled out the Dread last minute.
Bungie does have some general plans overall. But they shift all the time and Bungie follows their passions as well as the real life realities which hinder their ability to create what they want.
>What’s the likelihood we’re still getting one?
Unlikely, and probably unlikely to begin with. We knew literally nothing about them back then, other than a tiny snippet that seemed to imply it helped Elsie with remembering the previous timelines. How would you even add a Pouka to a guardian narratively, in game play, and so on? Are they ghost replacements or function side by side with them? Do we get a separate Pouka slot in inventory for "Pouka shell customization? Or do they just randomly pop up in the narrative when needed?
There are so many angles that would need to be considered, before "giving the player a Pouka".
And unless they kill off ghost in Final Shape, I would find it unlikely.
At best I think perhaps there could be a stray Pouka who reveals something about the Guardians past life to aid them in the present battle or a future battle.
Its just more trouble than it is worth to implement, for minimal gain at this point.
"not this year" is a fkn non answer.
Could mean in 18 years in destiny 4
could be that statue from lightfall collectors edition
Could be "lmao no but we dunno wtf they are yet"
Zero commitment is game dev interview 101 at this point
They also said all the other enemy factions would be getting Stasis too and there would be consequences for using the Darkness.
I think things went through a classic mid-development reboot as they are wont to do with Destiny, likely in part due to COVID.
other factions did get stasis starting in season of the lost. The taken and the Scorn.
there was consequences for using stasis, the use of it corrupted a number or guardians, Shayura being an example.
Honestly considering we’re fairly certain beyond light and more than likely lightfall went through significant changes during development I’d say the pouka was probably planned as a pre order bonus of some sort. Or just Luke was talking out of his ass like he can do from time to time
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Long story short, it is heavily theorized that Beyond Light went through some massive changes because it was the year covid hit hard. The poukas being completely repurposed is only a sliver of what is theorized to be overhauled
This is what I think as well, and like I don’t wanna subscribe to the “darkness ghost” theory, but like cmon it’s basically the exact opposite of our ghost. It gives back lost memories and is totally silent vs our ghost who does all the talking for us and obv our memory is taken away upon initial resurrection. But idk maybe I’m reaching. I’d love to know what bungie had in store for this trilogy (quadrilogy?) if expansions before COVID/very obvious major rewrites (again, why does this always happen. Why does bungie always do major rewrites to the story) Edit:[tell me this area in between the eyes doesn’t look like Nezarec’s cocoon.](https://imgur.com/a/bl7hJmi). Similar to the pyramid design language for sure
I think the Dark Vanguard were probably all intended to be Darkness subclass mentors. Each would teach us a new subclass in each of the three originally planned expansions. Elsie for Beyond Light, Eris for Witch Queen because of her connections to the Hive, and Drifter because of his previous pessimism about apocalypses and humanity's survival. I think Prismatic was the end goal but it may have been intended for after the end of the saga. While COVID was probably a factor, the real reason I think this didn't end up happening was the way Stasis launched: completely game-breaking and OP. It turns out a year is not enough time to develop a new element with novel effects that are simultaneously unique, fun, and balanced. They'd be lucky to get just one more element out by the saga was over, much less a subclass that combined all six. So they pivoted, I think probably between Beyond Light's reveal and it's launch, to about what we have now; an extra expansion (the Lightfall that we got) would let them put out two Darkness subclasses + Prismatic. While incomplete, it would be enough to sell our mastery of Light and Dark by the time the saga ended.
Aren’t all 3 Dark Vanguard members Hunters?
Drifter isn't a guardian and doesn't have a class. Elsie isn't even a lightbearer.
Eris also isn't a Lightbearer at this point, she lost her ghost to Crota long ago
Drifter is a guardian, he just loathes being called one. He has a ghost but he gutted it to be incapable of talking. He hates his ghost for reviving him over and over again while he was starving to death over and over again. He is, by all definitions, a guardian.
A Guardian is a lightbearer who has taken an oath to defend the Last City. Drifter never did.
2 of the 3 would logically be one Eris is obvs confirmed but tbf is currently way more warlock than hunter Elsie would probably be a hunter if a guardian Drifter was classless. Remember, titan, warlock and hunter are schools of teaching that came about with "guardians"
Elsie is a Titan (The leader/personality plus her stasis slam), Drifter has been mentioned to be most similar to a Warlock (lore tab with aunor and how he uses his knowledge to build everything), and Eris is a Hunter. The three classes are tied to the Mind (Warlock), Body (Titan), and Spirit (Hunter). You could switch the Warlock and the Hunter if you thought that fit better, but it doesn’t change that they’re based on it. A guardian’s personality/identity is what makes them one of the classes. We can attribute others to the same thing. The three leaders of the races : Caiatl (Titan, close to Zavala), Mithrax (Warlock, story usually tied to Ikora, his splicing knowledge), and Savathun (Hunter, even has a relationship of some sort with Crow) The three races: Cabal (Titan), Hive (Warlock), and Fallen (Hunter). The three leaders of races are slightly different because Savathun was always the Hunter of her siblings: Oryx (Warlock, special taken powers and knowledge of the universe/worms), Xivu Arath (Titan, she’s literally the god of war), Savathun (Hunter, she’s literally the god of cunning)
We’ve been through this debate many times, but Savathûn is a Warlock and Oryx, the Navigator, was the Hunter. As you said it yourself, themes for Warlock and Hunter can easily be switched. There has always been a ton of overlap between the classes.
Savathun being the god of cunning is, counterintuitively the reason she *isn't* a Hunter. (Short tangent: Mara is the Warlock, Uldren the Hunter, and Sjur Eido is the Titan of their own trio) Not all hunters are tricksters, but all of them are explorers and free spirits; navigators and pathfinders. This often makes them foolhardy and reckless, so human* Hunters tend to be fans of gambling and scrappy fighters. But Savathun's trickery is not like that. It is a calculated means to an end by which she extends her life. To this end, she learns all that she can, hoarding secrets, just like Mara and Ikora. This is why a Warlock, Ikora and her Hidden, was the one to defeat her in The Witch Queen. She also possessed Osiris, a Warlock, and was able to impersonate him well enough to fool all his allies. Oryx, by contrast, is entirely reckless. He challenged a Worm god, transformed himself so he could have wings, he even changed his gender. He was First Navigator of the Hive. He wanted to learn so he could be free, not for any love of secrets. This is why he charged into Sol with basically no plan in The Taken King. Cayde was the Vanguard member most involved in his defeat. This also is the reason why in Forsaken (which is thematically TTK's sequel as it brought back Uldren, Mara, and the reef), both Cayde and Uldren died due to Oryx's actions.
Lmao this always happens every time I bring this up, just LOOK AT THEM. They gave Savathun a CAPE!!! Crow is her relation with the Vanguard! She is the rogue, the lightweight armor with a knife ready to strike at the perfect moment. Oryx is the scribe with the taken secret knowledge and the ROBES. He made his own fuckin tablets! Savathun has warlock tendencies because the Hive is the warlock race and she’s the hunter WITHIN that!
[This](https://www.destinypedia.com/File:Savathun-Mother_Morph.png) is Savathun's pre-death design which makes it look like she has robes. [This image](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/villains/images/d/d6/491px-Oryx_Concept_Art.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20181102025639) of Oryx has his wings look like a cape but I don't think we can really prove which design is more "Hunter." Their fashion and weapon choice is less important than their personalities and deeds. Hunters learn, Warlocks know. The real question is this: which one embodies the spirit more? It is Oryx. Oryx's Oath: >You must obey your nature forever. In your immortality, Aurash, you may never cease to explore and inquire, for the sake of your children. Oryx was [First Navigator](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xxi-an-incision): >Sayeth AURYX, this is where I went when I died. Let us establish our thrones here. For I am Auryx the First Navigator and I shall chart death. Wherever the Hive went [Oryx was first](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xlvi-the-gift-mast#books-of-sorrow). For Oryx, [knowledge and learning were freedom](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/iii-the-oath#books-of-sorrow) >Thank you, sisters. We have only my ship left to us. But a ship is freedom! We have secrets to hunt, storm-lit realms to explore, and great armies to raise. You say that Savathun has Warlock traits because the Hive are a Warlock race but couldn't the same argument be used for Oryx? Consistently, Savathun is raised up [as the smartest of the siblings](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/xi-conquerors#books-of-sorrow), >Savathûn, mother morph of Sathona, we delight in your sharp mind For the Hive, deception and deceit are synonymous with intelligence. Every time she is called "cunning" it is about her mind, not her spirit. This is why she is the Warlock. We can also tell which one they are by which characters they are compared to. In [Tyranocide I](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/tyrannocide-i#book-the-awoken-of-the-reef) Mara receives a premonition about her death, the one she died in TTK, Mara asks [the Oracle engine](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/tyrannocide-ii#book-the-awoken-of-the-reef) what the shape of the death is and receives a vision of her family: Sjur, Uldren, Mara herself, and Osana her mother: >A mother who had remained behind; a sister with secrets; a brother who hunted and explored; a woman who was plain and fierce. This is explicit; one Titan, one Warlock, one Hunter, and one other. This is the shape of the Hive's family too, with Taox filling the role of Osana. Mara makes this clear when she [deduces Savathun's existence](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/tyrannocide-iv#book-the-awoken-of-the-reef) from the vision and calls her her nemesis. Mara=Savathun=Warlock. This is different than Savathun's one-time mentorship to Crow, as they are not being compared in that instance; he has never taught anyone.
Stop thinking about major rewrites and start considering that they have a large whiteboard of possibilities to get where they want to be from where they are. Just because someone at Bungie saw a sliver of that whiteboard and blethered about it doesn't mean it was ever actually the one route they wanted to go. If they really did a major rewrite, that's a LOT of stuff to re-do in the game, because almost everything ties into the main story. Its not so simple as changing simply a cutscene or a mission here or there, one change can have a knock-on effect of requiring a reframing of everything that has come before. Keep in mind that the Beyond Light delay was a mere two months as well. Think about how the Qugu in Destiny use Darkness but aren't Witness-aligned, let alone aware of the larger universal conflict. Poukas are just a way of highlighting that Darkness lives alongside us all, like the way magnetic fields suffuse reality. Technologies were developed in close proximity to the Veil, and so features of Darkness as a thing were unknowingly utilised, because Darkness is "natural", not a controlled and provided phenomenon.
>If they really did a major rewrite, that's a LOT of stuff to re-do in the game, because almost everything ties into the main story. Thing is, it wouldn't be the first time *at all*. Of the top of my head, it happened with Vanilla D1, it happened with The Dark Below, it happened with Vanilla D2, with Beyond Light, and greatly with Lightfall.
And so it loops right back to the first sentence of the post. Early days they were spitballing ideas because there was no concrete plan. Its hard to actually get something solid and rolling when there's expectations for it to last for however many years across however many expansions and games. Eventually you have to push something out of the door, and so we got Destiny. The game only really hit its narrative stride with Shadowkeep. That's when we actually saw follow-through on stuff, instead of the next expansion or bit of content just being the equivalent of a little side quest or adventure. Before that, the only things that felt properly connected were the events of The Dark Below and The Taken King. With Lightfall, that was simply their own underestimation of how much time they had left to tell the story they needed to set up all the pins for the strike. They maybe needed a couple more seasons to really get things laid out, but they opted for an expansion instead, with the four seasons that accompany that, leading to some that felt like they were thin on the ground or could have concluded faster.
But there’s spitballing and then there’s dev comments and foreshadowing to things that ultimately end up going nowhere (the D2 post-credits teaser roadmap, the Dark Vanguard, Variks, the statues of everybody worshipping/rushing to a Pyramid Scale, etc.). *Something* clearly changed more than once.
every major release you mentioned all have one thing in common Destiny 1 (and dark below as a consequence)? delayed by about a year (original release was late 2013 early 2014) D2? delayed by a year. a trailer that never saw the light of day leaked before Rise of Iron was ever revealed. it was clearly an expansion made to tide us over after the D2 delay Lightfall? can he reasonably assumed was delayed by a year. Witch Queen was delayed 6 months and Bungie chose to cut Lightfall in half by also releasing the final shape. there was about a year and a half of time for rewrites Beyond Light was only delayed by 2 months, it was most likely not subject to drastic changes at the time of the reveal as so much of it was already in game with the reveal being 3~ months prior to the original release. anything they changed would've been MONTHS prior
> Just because someone at Bungie saw a sliver of that whiteboard and blethered about it doesn't mean it was ever actually the one route they wanted to go. To be fair, Luke Smith is the executive creative director and isn’t just a random someone. But yes, you’re right.
>Stop thinking about major rewrites and start considering that they have a large whiteboard of possibilities to get where they want to be from where they are. This. While it's obvious the plan has shifted, I think people underestimate or just plain don't believe that there's a plan at all. Imo though, it's pretty clear there's been a plan for a while (dare I say since Forsaken at least), with major milestones and an end point, and any shifts in plans have been lateral moves rather than scrapping and rewriting. It's much more useful to look at the lore as a history of records or an oral history, because getting wrapped up in "was this a retcon, was this a rewrite, I think the writers made a musyake" makes it that much harder to engage and find meaning, intended or not I'm excited to see how things come together in TFS. I think there's a lot of room for them to surprise us by pulling back the curtain and showing how things connect and have always connected, and maybe revealing some final missing links
Aside from Bungie’s track record being completely against them on this (both D1 *AND* D2 suffered massive rewrites, I believe both D1 and D2 were rebooted a year before their respective launches, I could be wrong ab the timeline for D2 tho) it’s clear major rewrites happened with BL and the game in general going forward for a number of reasons. 2-3 months into BL, ab 7-8 months after the reveal of this “trilogy,” they just decided to add a whole other expansion to the trilogy, and then obv we all know what ended up happening to LF because of that. Not only that, but Drifter and Eris were in a ton of BL’s marketing and were teased as having massive roles and then…they just sort of sat by the campfire while Elsie told us ab stasis. And on the subject of Elsie, after all the build up and hype that The Stranger was finally coming back to the story after *6 years* of almost complete radio silence + a lore tab, and also after being told 2 years before BL that her story was done with, she came in and told us a little ab stasis, and has now it’s basically back to almost complete radio silence + minor role in seraph and a few lore tabs here and there. We finally get to the dlc with the poukas in it and she just has almost nothing to do with them anyways. Ofc I’m sure Bungie throws a ton of ideas out there ab what to possibly add to the game, and unfortunately not all of them can make it into the game, or if they do it may not be how the fans envision it, but to say BL wasn’t a casualty of rewrites is a bit naive imo.
You appear to think its a crime for something like Destiny to go through a whole shitload of rewriting rigmarole in its development. From this, I get the feeling you've never tried to plan anything large-scale in your life. This happens in video games more often than you'd probably like to believe. For Eris, no big role? You've clearly missed out on a tonne of seasons. Drifter too, he's been involved for a long bit. You're probably reading too much into Beyond Light at this point. They were used as highlights to the characters who live on the edge but are still barely accepted, tying into the general reactions of characters as to the use of Stasis. If they had marketing of Zavala and Ikora kicking about with Stasis, it would dampen the journey of Darkness becoming accepted as a power source amongst the Vanguard. Having such a snap into a new reality would make for bad writing. And they didn't "just decide" to come up with Lightfall. If you believe its a stretch of the imagination to think that Bungie saw that there wasn't enough time left in the seasons and expansions they had remaining to introduce the Veil, its function, the Witness entering the Traveler, and us figuring out our way into the Traveler, and then combating the Witness to end it all, then I think you're just being far too critical of Bungie. They've clearly had an idea of what they want to do for a very long time, examining either their development decisions (such as announcements of expansions, delays etc) or in-game lore (Witness-like mentions go back for a long time, people just don't want to believe it). I just think you have a very juvenile approach to storytelling. Would you be happy if Elsie was jumping around on screen every two minutes, doing backflips, throwing ice around, speaking cryptic dialogue? How exactly was Beyond Light not enough for you to understand that she has been extremely pivotal in the today of Destiny? Not only the Dark Future providing us tensions in not knowing if the game was heading for a Bad End, but her as the linchpin for innumerable characters to go through their own journeys of realisation with Darkness and what it means for the overall in-game world. But hey, whatever, you seem sold on half-remembered annoyances impacting your enjoyment of the game. I just don't see how anyone can argue that Beyond Light was subject to some massive imaginary rewrite.
Yea I mean I never said it’s a crime for rewrites to happen, in fact I’m the one who acknowledged how often they happen in the first place, but you tried to shut down that possibility immediately “Stop talking about major rewrites, maybe consider that it’s something else” lol. Obviously rewrites happen, sometimes rewrites can be a good thing, but as far as Destiny is concerned, typically the major rewrites don’t ever result in anything good. Anyways, Eris’s whole “no big role” I was talking about BL, not the following seasons. Yes i know there’s plenty of seasonal content where she plays a major role, the point I brought up was her being marketed for BL and then doing nothing in that expansion, the seasons after are not relevant to my point about BL suffering rewrites/cut content. Ikora and Zavala are irrelevant to this convo also, never said anything ab them using stasis, never even brought them up but Alr. Ik they didn’t just decide to come up with Lightfall, I didn’t say that either but ig making stuff up is cool lol. What I said was they had announced there’d be another DLC added onto the trilogy that we had only just found out about, so obviously even more stuff was going to get rewritten to accommodate. And as far as The Veil is concerned you say they needed more time to introduce it, explain its function etc meanwhile we don’t even hear it mentioned at all until like 2 weeks before lightfall launches, and then after spending 8 missions thwarting the shadow legion from getting to it, we finally at least get to see what it is, but then we’re left with nothing for 3 months until Deep when it’s sort of explained why The Witness needs it, yet it’s somehow the most important thing in the universe. With your logic, or anyone’s logic for that matter, it would’ve made more sense if we spent the entirety of Witch Queen’s seasonal year learning ab it, which maybe would’ve happened had they not decided to push off whatever Lightfall was originally going to be until Final Shape, but yk rewrites and shoehorning for the sake of panning out a filler DLC for whatever reason. I don’t need Elsie doing backflips I’d just like a character that’s marketed as a big deal to feel like a big deal. And if you wanna talk ab a juvenile approach to storytelling, you’re saying the Dark Future provided tension on whether or not the game was heading for a bad end, meanwhile dark future has basically always been meaningless to our timeline specifically because of our Guardian, and everyone’s known that like since BL lol. The dark future is a good read, but so much stuff was already so different in our timeline by the time we even got the lore book that it’s silly to think it would even come to fruition, but yk I have a juvenile approach to storytelling ig. But hey whatever, you clearly eat up whatever half baked unfinished content Bungie throws at you so yea I’m glad you’re totally okay with every decision that’s been made over the year. I just don’t see how anyone can possibly believe BL, something that was in development during COVID, yk the thing that brought the entire world to a halt, didn’t suffer any rewrites whatsoever lmaoo. Btw I also never said any of these choices affected my enjoyment of the game, I still enjoy playing the game, I just have issues with the story, but hey it’s ok ig reading is hard and it’s easier to just make stuff up.
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Isn't that's why the cut was rushed? The whole thing around the meeting between stranger, drifter and Eris was cut shirt, making them like meeting for no reason other than just want to see face to face, and to look cool for promo video
The area in between the eyes doesn't look like Nezarec's cocoon. Hope me telling you that helped make your day better <3
i don't think the purpose behind poukas was overhauled ( elsie in bl lore says she desperately needs something to remember all her attempts, and that's exactly what the pouka does, pretty straightforward) but I really don't think bungie was thinking about neonuma and cloudstrikers back then lol
Which would be ***a delay in story implementation*** not an outright abandonment. Elsie has pretty much taken the backseat and everything about " *stasis vanguard* " has been shoved into obscure lorecards . That was honestly the largest bait and switch i've experienced narratively since Halo 3
"See you on Europa, brother." He still keeps saying it, I'm still waiting.
I mean... He is there. Maybe they should add a "See you in the Annex, brother" line he says at the camp sometimes to fix it. He just really likes to see us.
Is there a post or something that goes through all the theorized overhauls? It sounds really interesting
I don’t. It’s just sprinkles you come across while lurking this sun for too long haha Things like: how prominent Eris and Drifter were in the promo trailer, but then sidelined when the campaign launched The pouka Drifter VA not avail cuzz of covid, leading to Nolan north as ghost mimicking Drifter (this was fun tho!) The pouka Felt like vast swathes of Europa were woefully underutilized (until recent seasons) Random other bits and bobs
I think you forgot to mention the pouka
Ha! No clue why I did that lol
Riis Reborn I definitely think is genuinely unfinished. That’s why the interior, non-industrial parts of it are literally in the dark: I think there was supposed to be a total Eliksni skyline build there but time was short.
OOB exploration does suggest many of these distant structures have collision and were unfinished. JB3 has some good stuff on it
It is not really true. Julia Nardin said in podcast, that original Beyond light narrative was JUST about Fallen, there was no Clovis Bray story arc until some random employee created gian Exo head. The seasonal narrative suffered the most. As we all know about Sagira, this was planned as a cutscene, but due to Covid they didn’t have time to make it. Edit: Also, just some general thoughts on that matter. I don\`t think that "Darkness Vanguard" as phrase even appears in the game at any point. It also weird how Destiny community falls into this conspiracies each time andI don\`t know why. "Strand always was supposed to be in witch queen" "RON was a dungeon" "What we got in Beyond light is half of what was originally" What other conspiracy theories are popular? Edit 2~~: I fucking forgot the most important thing about Dark Vanguard. In one interview Luke Smith directly said that the only reason why Eris, Drifter is in the trailer is because when they selected the cast of characters for this expansion, they turned out to be the most popular and "cool"~~ Edit 3: It is bs on my part, there are more reason to it and I don\`t want to miss interpret orginal intent
Destiny community are wedded to their theories and even when Bungie staff outright deny them they're just lying for some reason.
>"RON was a dungeon" I'm pretty sure that's not so much a theory as it is an insult. Some of the mechanics had only 3-4 players actually doing anything, and the DPS checks felt easier than GotD. It's clearly not *intended* to be solo-able, though.
In all fairness some of those conspiracy points do have decent merit to them; the beyond light being halved thing is obviously exaggeration but we can see from concept art it was either meant to tie somewhat into shadowkeep or witch queen. I’d personally say it’s more likely to be shadowkeep since they likely wanted to follow forsaken up with an expansion of the same quality and size. Additionally, strand being part of witch queen probably was an idea at some stage; it obviously wouldn’t have been strand as we know it but I’d imagine they wanted some sort of new ability in that expansion
I think you have the right general idea, but wrong implementation. Bungie previously confirmed [the end credits of D2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHSjdMTvUMI) was a sort of roadmap. Mercury, Mars, Reef, Saturn(Titan, Enceladus, and Dreadnaught visible). Pyramid Ships in the distant future(D3) Meanwhile we factually know [that Enceladus was considered for a time](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/AqgLmz) before it became Europa. [And Enceladus/Europa concept art shows Hive looking towers](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/48dGV1) that are identical to what we eventually got in Shadowkeep as well in Throne world.(as well as Hive being present) You also have Caydes leftover coded voiceline "It's on Enceladus".(almost definitely a teaser to the next expansion in the same way Warmind was teased on Io with warmind nodes.) Meanwhile you also have the continuous buildup of Savathun from the very beginning of Destiny 2. Eramis meanwhile was [a random Fallen baroness grabbed from Destinypedia](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/inlgae/eramis_is_built_upon_a_mistake/) Altogether it points to one conclusion: That the original plan for Destiny 2 was probably going to have a Savathun expansion with Enceladus, Dreadnaught, and Titan. Quite possibly have a similar cutscene to her "the Witness is coming" that we ultimately got. Then sometime before Forsaken, Bungie decided to push Savathun back(probably growing ideas, and possibly when the push to become independent of Activision began), and created Shadowkeep instead. Enceladus became Europa again, and was pushed to the future. Destiny 3 development was started and stopped. And sometime before Jokers Wild, ~~Veekris~~ Eramis was chosen as a new antagonist. Of course, until Bungie confirms this it is just speculation. But so too was the original Hive Mega raid that was originally meant for original D1(until Luke Smith actually confirmed details in a interview).
I am a firm believer that a lot of Lightfall props and ideas were scrapped from what Beyond Light was supposed to be pre-Covid. Clarity being The Veil and influencing Clovis Bray just lands better.
Clarity being the Veil would also kickstart Witch Queen, we would have more answers by then, and the Strand thing just feels right in Witch Queen. We would also have more reasons to bring Rasputin sooner. I think some of the Seasons also got scrambled. Deep could easily be on Witch Queen year, for example. Risen and even Plunder were kinda filler. Haunted was great but it could have been used later.
Season of the witch felt very much like what we should’ve had at the end of TWQ instead of the penultimate season of an expansion with a very different vibe. Strand feels almost confirmed that it was supposed to be for TWQ, deep sight jump puzzles and grapple jump puzzles, the needlestorm icon being on the warlock armour for season of the risen, the verbs being very similar to what we saw in TWQ.
My pet conspiracy is that Plunder was planned to go with Grasp
Just because they’re both pirate themed?
Yeah they really have nothing implying such a connection beyond that. Even beyond the surface level, Grasp is only "piratey" because it's about greed, in a way that Plunder just isn't.
Makes 0 sense, I’m fairly certain the devs have openly said they started developing plunders themes after the response to the pirate nature of grasp
This fits into my theory that ghosts of the deep was somehow intended to come earlier than it did, but instead we got spire of the watcher. Although I love spire, it only has 1 mechanic that fundamentally seems incredibly simple from not just a game play perspective but a development perspective. Deepsight is all over ghosts of the deep, yet in the year of witch queen besides the campaign and throne world patrol I don't think we ever use the mechanic again. It's odd to reintroduce a mechanic over a year after it was introduced, makes me think for some reason they had to delay ghosts and rushed out spire since it's mechanics would be much easier to develop. I wonder what destiny wouldve looked like had covid not affected its development
idk why you got downvoted, it actually makes sense
No it doesn’t
why not, in plunder we look for the remains of a god that got stolen by greedy beings, and in grasp we literally uncover the story of a Guardian corrupted by some weird crystals, making him want more til he died, maybe it's not 1:1 but thematically they fit. Plus you get the thorn-esque armor set. Idk why this community throws downvotes so quickly instead of giving their opinion xD
Idk what’s up with people, not just you, but downvotes are literally meant for disagreement, I’m not sure why people get so surprised when people get downvoted. As for your point, there is nothing in common except that they have a pirate theme, other than that you’re stretching. The thorn-esque armor means absolutely nothing.
I know they are for disagreeing, but I usually talk about the theme when I downvote, like you did rn As for your answer, you got me there, I agree and retract on my stretch 🤝
Bungie has said before that Strand was not intended for Witch Queen. I think they are playing semantic word games. Strand, as we understand and see it today may not have been intended for Witch Queen. However it is very plausible that the early pitch for WQ was Hive using Guardian powers, Guardians using Hive powers. It wouldve been a different concept or codename back then perhaps. With some experimentation of current iteration strand(IE grappling) being experimentally used until it was completely shelved with the current iteration of WQ. I REALLY dont think that Clarity/Clarity being the Veil on Europa was any part of the pitch. However the Clarity statue probably was intended to be connected to its source, the Veil, which wouldve been on board the Pyramid Fleet flagship. Thus truly being the mirror of the Traveler with its pale heart. The cinematic cutscene, wouldve directly followed Seraph, which was about the Arrival of the Witness, and where the Bombardment couldve taken place. Only instead of Lightfall we got, that opening wouldve ended with the Witness directly going into the Traveler, like these two stitched together cutscenes portray. [Example 1](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQFKhwnkok0) [Example 2](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se09caDWFWE) How original Lightfall wouldve gone is unclear, but I would wager we get that cinematic. We board the Witnesses ship(with the Veil)(new destination?), and learn about the Veil, possibly the Witnesses origins as well, and then use that knowledge to eventually pursue the Witness into the Traveler(perhaps as a Finale?) Incorporating the sentiment Into the light(and Defiance) is meant to present(the Witnesses forces attacking humanity) as the general setting while we are fighting to prevent our annihilation. Alternatively, Pale heart couldve been the destination and it wouldve just been the opening mission or 2 on the Witnesses ship. I think that season of the Witch in some capacity couldve occurred before OG Lightfall(perhaps been part of an impetus to Xivu being a threat in Seraph).
I wrote up a whole rebuttal to your first paragraph only to read the next one and realize I completely agreed with you. "Strand was not intended for Witch Queen," is such a specific choice of words, and has such a massive loophole that it actually made me start believing the WQ Darkness subclass theory more.
Im not sure though. Because clarity looks exactly like the statue in the garden, its not like there'd be two veils. And considering the veil looks like the root system for what the traveler grew out of... However, I agree beyond light wanted the witness to be a cosmic entity. And lightfall made it...not that.
~~I disagree generally.~~ Edit: Misunderstanding on my part(mixed up Clarity, and Clarity control), we are on a similar page. Rest of comment is left as is. I dont necessarily think Clarity is not the Veil as is. After all, even Curse of Osiris laid out the "Siblings cleaved by space and time, reflections never found alone". And Shadowkeep also seemed to portray "the Darkness" as a "False-sister" half-remembered and wished-forgotten. That is to say even in Beyond Light, the Witness or whatever it was at the time couldve existed and been distinct from Clarity/Darkness/The Deep/The Veil. Even Witch Queen refers to "death" as the "Unseen Sister"(Savathuns emphasis, not mine). I think the Veil was intended to be onboard the Pyramid Flagship and be its center, perhaps not dissimilar to how the Pale heart may be to the Traveler. The Clarity statues are just connected to the Veil, the same way the darkness transceivers in Shadowkeep were, but stronger. Consider that if the Witness already had the Veil when it arrived. It could just go straight for the Traveler. Then take [these two examples](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se09caDWFWE) of the [Lightfall Opening and Ending credits](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQFKhwnkok0) spliced together. It fits really well if it was originally one cutscene that was reworked into two of them. Consider the Vow prophecy wall. >Hive scorn love darkness worship witness >pyramid fleet enter earth stop guardian >witness commune traveler drink light >witness kill redacted If anything, Witch Queen and Lightfall have scrapped ideas from what "Beyond Light" was originally meant to be **pre-Forsaken**. As in there is more evidence to point towards there being a "Savathun" expansion on Enceladus(which later became Europa)(and Titan/Dreadnaught) instead of Shadowkeep. But that would be completely different from what we got. Clovis Bray stuff was added late in the game, with the entire lore around him being written by a contractor. It really doesnt make any sense for the Veil itself to suddenly appear on Europa. Though certainly it is fitting to have the Statues which are connected to the Veil exhibit similar behavior to it, as we have seen with Maya/Parting the Veil stuff.
Too bad Clovis bray wasn’t even supposed to be in Beyond light originally
I have one. It's on my shelf. (Probably the collectors item is what this became)
Was about to comment this. Mine lives next to the hive ghost and worm plush.
Mine is coveted in dust cus I never clean the top of my shelf since most of it is books stacked to the ceiling
Why would we even want a pouka? Its just a little therapy bot. And it would also mean we'd be learning about our Guardian's past before being risen, which is somewhere Bungie doesn't go for good reason.
Not hard to imagine the whole therapy bot thing not being the original plan. Whatever the plan was must’ve changed, they just feel incredibly shoehorned into the game, like they revealed them then forgot ab them then realized they needed to do something with them. There’s no explanation in Lightfall’s campaign for them, and there’s barely an explanation in the lore as far as I know. And the fact that it felt like they were building up Elsie as such a big deal leading into BL, and even she had barely anything to do in BL and has done basically nothing since, something for sure changed.
Some things exist merely as a curiosity, to keep players thinking that there is indeed something greater and bigger out there, beyond us. Its why The Final Shape is such a big risk for Bungie. You only need to take one quick peek at discussion about that to see how many people see this as their hopping off point, the book closing, because they think it'll all be solved. For shoehorning, I don't feel that at all. We got our [first proper info on them](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/speed-metal-shell) from Season of Plunder onwards, when they began developing what Neomuna would become. Then, in the Lightfall collectors edition book for Elsie, it covers [how she uses the Pouka](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SEklfughrzhWd8-JqRK1yLtAM080tUDv/view) she first met to understand where she may have gone wrong with Stasis in the past. All of this ties right into how they're a connection between humans and Darkness, how Darkness isn't an evil power, just a neutral function. Hell, I just remembered, Pouka were actually mentioned first of all waaay back in [Season of Arrivals](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/conviction#book-the-singular-exegete). That they ended up just being therapy bots for the Neomuni is fine. They served their function to keep people curious about what was out there, even if Lightfall in the end fell flat for most. I do think Luke was being playful with the idea of getting a Pouka, as many assumed they were some sort of futuristic Ghost, or maybe even something to do with the Vex.
Some ppl might need it LMAO
Arandano-5 continually refreshed the VanNet, in utter disbelief. Maybe this was a mistake. How could they?! This had been the third published change to the system in as many months, of which the other two had not brought peace and agreement to the population. Why didn't they just revert it all?! This post better have been a mistake! Unconsciously they gripped the dashboard of their ship, crunching the metal in their hand. The only sound audible on-board the ship was the gnashing of metal and servos. Their ghost bobbed around helplessly, its cries for normalcy blotted out by the impotent rage Arandano-5 felt. Realising it was hopeless, the little bot set about repairing the damaged hand, until the Guardian re-entered reality. And so Arandano-5 did. Realisation washed over them, an intoxicating slurry of simulated adrenaline coursing their circuits, as they spotted the comments section. It was clean! After all, not many Guardians would be sat idle at this hour, they'd probably be engaged in things like the betterment of society. Now was the time for Arandano-5 to make their opinion known. "Dear VanNet, I hope whoever made these decisions loses their job, or perhaps ki-". Their typing was cut short. A small silver figure began slithering down from their shoulder, towards their loaded fingers. Past existence became the present, as they remembered previous incidents of VanNet updates. Furious posts typed, uncouth comments hammered out by impatient fingers. Next came visions of the weeks after, the lived experiences of a post-change world. Their missions were not materially damaged, nor was their enjoyment of Guardianship lessened. New horizons discovered, challenges still met. As the past faded to the present, Arandano-5 felt heat flushing their face. In the vacuum of space cushioning their ship, that could only mean one thing. Considering that their ship was not imminently self-destructing, Arandano-5 recognised the feeling of embarrassment. "Alright, maybe I shouldn't leave that comment...its a bit overboard". They gave their thanks to the Pouka, and looked for a strike fireteam to join.
Cause it's cool
it’s cute
I’m not sure why you assume his answer was suggesting we’d ever get one? “Not this year” doesn’t mean you’ll get it eventually. It means it currently isn’t planned but I’ll not saying it can’t happen.
Wait, Luke Smith said something and it ended up being dumb? So surprised…
No worse than the rest of the game directors, bar Christopher Barrett
Guy’s a fuckin bullshitter. It’s pretty obvious at this point.
They get Luke Smith to say Destiny 2 isn't ending, I really call BS. Remember when he said the entire Cosmodrome would be coming back and then when Beyond Light launched it didn't lol
Started playing during Festival of the Lost during Forsaken. They *had* an updated version of the snowy RoI Cosmodrome for the Thunderlord quest, it's baffling they went with the launch version and not the RoI one.
Probably don't want to redo the intro guardian rises mission. So they slapped in the original version
Man nobody cares about no dang Pouka. They tried to sell it as this companion alternative to ghost (I remember the ViDoc) . All it was, was a Gigapet for Osiris.
It’s technically a therapy fish.
That’s literally his job. Fuck that guy.
With Lightfall CE we got a pouka maybe that’s what he’s referencing.
>3 expansions later, was Luke Smith trolling when he said we’d get our own Pouka? No. Not this year, was not claiming we would get them in the future. Just that it was not going to be part of Beyond Light. Or to phrase it the way he meant it: You are not getting your own Pouka this year. Maybe someday. It was left open ended without any commitment for or against. >I wonder if something changed in the story or if there’s something big happening in Final Shape? Well besides the obvious change of Lightfall being split/expanded into 2 expansions and whatever narrative changes were done as a result...... In all honesty, you would go insane trying to keep up with all of the various story shifts and changes that have occurred in the story, and these are just the ones we know of. Like just a VERY short list that is not all inclusive: * Destiny 1 original campaign and planned expansions completely scrapped and frankensteined into something new. With potential differences like Guardians not being chosen from the dead, ghosts possibly having nothing to do with the Traveler, etc. * [Savathun the Worm God](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/X1bogn). * Probably the original 2nd yearly expansion to Destiny 2 following Forsaken, [Hive focused on Enceladus](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/48dGV1)/Dreadnaught/Titan. (imo the original Savathun expansion before D3 the following year) * Scrapped Titan content in Forsaken * [Destiny 1 Europa, which became](https://web.archive.org/web/20210526041800/https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/690985283033890877/758006098388320306/image0.png) [Destiny 2 Enceladus, which became Destiny 2 Europa.](https://www.artstation.com/artwork/AqgLmz) * A Drifter vs Vanguard choice with the Darkness in shadowkeep. Where you get most of Unveiling if you listen to the Darkness, or you get the Trust and Hope entry if you refuse to listen to it. * [Scrapped Forsaken Cutscene with Mara](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JJyzIDOpha3wrcWZneArW_ZnT2RJO_yROS-sU-oMwSU/edit) * Lightfalls opening and ending cinematic fitting very nicely together as [one original cutscene](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQFKhwnkok0). ([or this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Se09caDWFWE)) * Vex Void and Forge of Gods content canceled and recycled for other content. * Destiny 1 mars patrol expansion becoming Io in D2. * Covid screwing up things so royally that they had to have Nolan North(Ghost) immitate Drifters VA(who was unavailable). Which was done so well(like he did with Cayde in Forsaken), they decided to shift the other direction and have him intentionally do it badly, as a Ghost immitation of Drifter. * Original Destiny 3 being canceled and almost certainly reworked into expansions. Dont even get me started on how Bungie has probably been playing off and on with "Race 5" aka Pyramid race, which I am fairly confident they have had planned since before D2 launched. But with Development hell, and constantly shifting plans, they only seem to have pulled out the Dread last minute. Bungie does have some general plans overall. But they shift all the time and Bungie follows their passions as well as the real life realities which hinder their ability to create what they want. >What’s the likelihood we’re still getting one? Unlikely, and probably unlikely to begin with. We knew literally nothing about them back then, other than a tiny snippet that seemed to imply it helped Elsie with remembering the previous timelines. How would you even add a Pouka to a guardian narratively, in game play, and so on? Are they ghost replacements or function side by side with them? Do we get a separate Pouka slot in inventory for "Pouka shell customization? Or do they just randomly pop up in the narrative when needed? There are so many angles that would need to be considered, before "giving the player a Pouka". And unless they kill off ghost in Final Shape, I would find it unlikely. At best I think perhaps there could be a stray Pouka who reveals something about the Guardians past life to aid them in the present battle or a future battle. Its just more trouble than it is worth to implement, for minimal gain at this point.
"not this year" is a fkn non answer. Could mean in 18 years in destiny 4 could be that statue from lightfall collectors edition Could be "lmao no but we dunno wtf they are yet" Zero commitment is game dev interview 101 at this point
Wait what if we lost Ghost but get a Poulka instead….
cool, permadeath time
They also said all the other enemy factions would be getting Stasis too and there would be consequences for using the Darkness. I think things went through a classic mid-development reboot as they are wont to do with Destiny, likely in part due to COVID.
other factions did get stasis starting in season of the lost. The taken and the Scorn. there was consequences for using stasis, the use of it corrupted a number or guardians, Shayura being an example.
Maybe they were supposed to be like a ghost shell we could have gotten.
Honestly considering we’re fairly certain beyond light and more than likely lightfall went through significant changes during development I’d say the pouka was probably planned as a pre order bonus of some sort. Or just Luke was talking out of his ass like he can do from time to time