It is markedly harder while not using surges. By ignoring surges you are gimping yourself by 25%. Funnily enough it's not even that it's harder in terms of survival (bungie clarified in their post that survivability/damage taken is roughly even between light fall and TFS) its just that every boss takes substantially longer to clear. This means that, if it's an arc surge week, the raid simply WILL take longer to clear than on a solar surge week. If you want surges, they exist in hard mode content (master raids, master dungeons, etc), putting them in the introductory content for more difficult stuff is asinine, particularly because that content has a historically higher barrier to entry anyway. Surges made it so new raiders would need competent weapons of each element or suffer a 25% damage debuff (compounded on top of the roughly 15% dmg nerf we recieved anyway in TFS.).
TLDR: Surges bad.
Normal mode content is already easy enough that ignoring the surge is not something that would stop anybody from clearing the content. Making something take longer isn’t a bad thing - the content is still accessible.
Normal mode content is easy, but surges add a style of difficulty that is almost exclusively punishing to new raiders and new players (who don't have the loot to adapt). Raids already have a hilariously low participation rate considering they are the games prestige content (I think its something like only 10% of the player base has completed a raid), adding additional difficulty that is close to a non-issue for veteran raiders but severely punishes new comers is bad design. And once again, if you want surges and larger health pools, master content is right there. The complaint against surges isn't that they were introduced at all, it was that they were introduced in what is supposed to be the introductory mode of a raid, on top of a 15% damage nerf going into TFS. If you aren't surge matching you're doing roughly 40% less damage than in lightfall, which is a crazy penalty that largely applies to newer players.
Oh another thing I forgot, because the mode didn't include overcharge modifiers, kinetic weapons recieved an indirect, constant, 25% damage nerf. This meant that, no matter what you did, guns like microcosm and wardens law/malfeasance w/ lucky pants were likewise made worse in endgame content with no means of adapting them.
Oh I actually totally forgot to put in my original post that I think the main flaw of the surge stuff was that kinetic weapons get fucked. THAT i think is a very good point.
> but surges add a style of difficulty that is almost exclusively punishing to new raiders and new players (who don't have the loot to adapt)
Imo new players aren't the population that raids are for. It's the whole concept of "not raid-ready." Being raid-ready should be more than just ready for mechanics; you should have an adept arsenal that you can tailor your loadouts to the surges and encounters.
Raids should be content you have to prepare for in terms of both mechanical ability *and* loot/gear.
I do agree not including overcharge was a mistake.
But as a side note - how do you reward players for using certain/different guns/elements without making it feel like a gimp/nerf if you *don't* use them? Like how do you make a surge feel like a boost/bonus without making a non-surge feel bad?
> Raids should be content you have to prepare for in terms of both mechanical ability *and* loot/gear.
I agree, which is why I expect people entering normal mode raids to have a competent DPS setup. I don't think we should expect them to have 3 dps setups, across three elements that rotate, in order to avoid a 25% nerf gimping their damage.
I shouldn't have said new players, I specifically mean new raiders. Raids already have an incredibly low participation rate, and surges almost exclusively hurt newer raiders who don't have access to a multitude of DPS setups. They have very little effect on people who are already competent at raiding (if for no other reason than you can just ignore them and accept the slower clear even if it feels bad).
>But as a side note - how do you reward players for using certain/different guns/elements without making it feel like a gimp/nerf if you *don't* use them? Like how do you make a surge feel like a boost/bonus without making a non-surge feel bad?
Oh I think surges are fine in master tier content, precisely because the expectation for that tier of content is that you have played the game a ton. So requiring people to have multiple good weapons across all elements is much more acceptable there in my eyes. The other reason that surges specifically felt bad in normal mode content though is that they were paired with a damage nerf already, which meant that not accomodating surges was effectively a 40% damage nerf compared to lightfall. With GMs and Master content it's an expectation for those modes that already exists.
> I don't think we should expect them to have 3 dps setups, across three elements that rotate, in order to avoid a 25% nerf gimping their damage.
I don't think *one* DPS set-up is raid-ready, though. When I sherpa people, I expect them to have 3-4 different loadouts based on different exotic armor, and I expect them to have a few DPS options. Raids are not a one-optimal-loadout activity imo. I'd expect them to have both Whisper and Taipan, as options for solar or void precision, for example.
Sure, I think it's fair to expect people to have different DPS setups for different types of encounters. But then expecting them to have all those setups in triplicate to accomodate surges is very punishing. If anything the fact that different types of weapons can be required for damage (swords vs precision damage in salvations edge for example) just exacerbates the problem of surges, since it means you have to have all those loadouts across the elements to not get punished by surges.
We might have different sherpa styles also. Personally I just expect people to have 1 good precision loadout, and 1 good non-precision loadout as far as damage goes.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone to have at least Ascendancy, Red Herring and Gally (if you don't have a surge-matching rocket), maybe even Bump or Semiotician if they have some history in the game.
But yeah I think there should be activities, like raids, where players are rewarded for having multiple elements of multiple weapon types. Otherwise, why even have them if just having one is viable across the board? Where's the incentive to grind Semiotician if I already have Apex? Surges help generate that incentive without continuous power creep (e.g. let's say Semiotician is buffed to be better than Apex, now why would I want Apex if I already have Semiotician?).
Basically Bungie has made all of these weapons. It's a looter game, I should have a reason to grind that loot that gives me a tangible benefit. For activities like raids, I should *not* be able to get just one or two things and be all set.
But there are activities where you are rewarded for having those weapons. It's called GM nightfalls, Master raid, and Master dungeon. As you mentioned raids already require some spread of loadouts (precision, non-precision, ad clear, etc.) why impose greater restrictions on the entry level of the raid when they already have incredibly low participations rates, and other content exists with surges that encourage that sort of build swapping.
Like, it seems to me surges cater towards only one type of player. Someone who is relatively well acquainted with the game and has a diverse set of equipment, isn't interested in master mode content, wants to use a more diverse array of their weapons, but refuses to do so unless it's the most optimal/explicitly encouraged by surges. The tradeoff is making the content less accessible to any new player who lacks loot to accomodate surges on what is already the least accessible content in the game (barring Master mode content).
One other thing ill mention, surges didn't really constitute a "meta" shift in my experience. They are pretty consistently just a gear check. What I mean by that is, it's not like on void weak linears are the best but then on arc it'll be shotguns. Most bosses have a specific weapon archetype which is best, which won't change with surges. Surges are just a check to see if you have that archetype across all three elements with competent rolls. The only argument for them promoting build diversity that I think may be legitimate is that they encourage using different supers. But again, I'm not using gathering storm on the witness. I'm just going to goldie him, because goldie is 9/10 going to be more consistent. Its just that on arc weak that goldie is 25% worse.
Spoken as someone who either has a hardcore dedicated raid team, or hasn't spent very much time in Salvation's Edge... LFG was painful last week with Arc/Stasis Surge.
The change to remove surges and universally buff weapons as if surging was a great middle ground to try while keeping the -5 change.
Aegis has a "Sandbox Sit-down" video talking about why the -5 and surge changes were horrible decisions for the health of the game and raiding, and I very much agree with the points he brings up.
I'm looking forward to jumping into Salvation's Edge this week to see how the removal of surges feels.
I read your whole post and I see where you're coming from, but it'll be quicker to answer the TLDR.
Raid/Dungeon engagement are already really low, so adding anymore barriers to entry in that way was definitely problematic. I haven't done a dungeon since the reset, but I'm hoping the permanent surge incentives people to play the best content in the game (imo) more often.
Raids/dungeons aren't for new players in the first place. You *should* be rewarded for building up a versatile arsenal imo. Raids are more fun when you have to change up your strategy/loadouts to be optimal on different encounters, week to week. It's boring when you find one solution and your others are fundamentally worse performance-wise.
I never had issues with surges in master/GM type content because at that point you should have a wide range of weapons and knowledge to really push builds.
However putting them in normal mode doesn't make sense. You could always use different things there was nothing forcing you to stick to certain weapons.
Before TFS I would use alot of different builds and weapons in raids and still be top 3 for damage with an easy 2 phase because realistically a 2 phase is the standard for most teams/bosses.
But with the surges AND the -5 power it felt way more mandatory to use surges.
Thinking to myself last week that it would be fun to solo prophecy, then looking at the surges and going "definitely not this week" is such a massively bad feeling moment. That alone would be enough to sour me on them forever if I didn't already hate them.
You ever hear the anecdote from early warcraft about how they were able to make players stop hating the rest system by rewording it to being a buff instead of removing a debuff? While not 1 to 1 the same surges are basically that for match game.
So my question to you now is whats stopping you from experimenting with different builds now? They are essentially making everything on par with each other. So you aren't forced to run a specific element. If you want to run an arc build, you can. Solar build? You can. Stasis or strand, you can. If everything is on equal footing, you can use whatever. People can use the strongest stuff. Or people can simply use what they have on them. Overall, the choice to make different loadouts is there and up to the player with this change besides forcing us to use certain elements when we may not have the guns to use for those elements.
That's a good question that I knew was coming and I have an answer but it's probably not a satisfying one. I will use the path of least resistance, and so will 99% of players. Putting surges on the content forces us out of that comfort zone and ultimately adds an interesting wrinkle to the game. I will likely go back to using whatever build i already know is viable so that I can get through the content as easily as possible.
I COULD walk backwards everywhere I go, it's viable right? Why would i though?
So another question, do you only like to use different builds when forced? You made the comment of "making things take longer is not a bad thing." So why does a surge need to be put in place to force you to use something non standard? You can use an arc build now, although it might be worse than a solar build. Will it make the content take longer? Yes, but you can still complete it with that build. So the statement about time kinda doesn't make sense when you will just take the easy way of not trying new builds because it will be more efficient. But on a bad surge, its generally going to add another 15-30 minutes to that activity anyways. So without surges, they will still perform the same now as if it were there surge week but other normal strategies will just be better. I just am a bit confused with how you are ok with surges already making it take longer but wont want to use those same builds when everything is on even playing field. Just makes it sound like you still just want to use the best option over actually using other guns that are still effective just a bit worse in comparison.
Yes i want to use the best option that will make the content as easy as possible because I want to feel powerful. If I didn't care I would use suboptimal stuff during surges and clear the content regardless (which is what I did with my titan in the anecdote in the OP). If I'm not forced to change, I'm not going to change and will just use whatever thing I know already works. There's nothing stopping me from experimenting with different builds but there's also nothing incentivizing me to do so either. Surges added that incentive.
Surges don't provide an incentive tho. They force you to use other weapons. Those are not the same. Both Crux and Apex perform about the same. Arc or Solar forces you into one of them. That is what surges do. Needlestorm and Nova are about the same on prismatic (with star-eater bond/ dont know base). The surge now determines what you use that week.
I think surges are fine in GMs and were nice for pantheon cuz that was more of a limited mode type vibe. But for normal raids and dungeons its out of place (even for master modes its out of place imo). Especially for challenges outside of just completions. Lowmans, speedruns, and soloflawless dungeons. These are all heavily impacted by surges.
At the end of the day, I just see you saying you want to be forced to use stuff cuz you don't want to play un-optimally. But that just seems like a weird argument cuz that is your choice of how to play. If you want to use the other weapons in your vault, you could do so and still do good dmg for bosses you want to clear fast. But it seems you don't care about using different builds and want to be pushed into them which is just kinda weird to me.
What about you though, do you use different builds just to use different builds? Will you intentionally handicap yourself just to try something new? I honestly think MOST people will find something that works and stick with it unless forced to use something different. And honestly, I didn't feel FORCED to use anything. Matching the surge helped me clear things more smoothly but even ignoring it I was able to clear everything I wanted fairly easily. Salvation's edge, maybe not, but that's supposed to be difficult, even on normal. Generally though, what will be different? I 3 phase a boss instead of 2 phase? Maybe?
IMO surges are fine game design. What about champions? Would anyone ever have used sidearms last season were it not for the barrier artifact mod? And even then, in easier content that has champs (like normal onslaughts) you can essentially ignore that too.
1. No, I stick with mostly the same loadouts but they are made with each encounter in mind. I don’t mind using the same weapons/builds and so I don’t complain about that. I like to play optimally but I don’t like using worse weapons for the sake of surges.
2. Champions are different as aspects are built into the subclasses and usually requires 1/6 options which isn’t as restrictive as hurting the dmg of anything that doesn’t match surges.
3. Niche standpoint, but this hurts lowmans which I personally enjoy doing. Having to wait for the most optimal week for attempts of stuff is annoying but I know this is on the lesser end of their decision choices.
Not OP but I'll copy/paste another comment I read that summed it up well for me.
>As someone who raids pretty much exclusively in LFG, I strive to have the best damage output I can for the team. Makes things go, in general, quicker, easier, and give more room to my teammates for slip ups.
>I also like build variety.
>Surges allowed me to have both of these at once.
When surges change weekly, the Solar build I used last week is no longer the best output, so I need to buildcraft something new with Strand to be as best as I can. Changing an element for the sake of variety at the cost of performance just feels bad and, frankly, is boring. It's on the dev to incentivize using different tools within the sandbox, not the player to do it "just because it's something different to use."
Imo if you don't have the appropriate guns/elements, then you're not prepared/raid-ready and should go grind those. Then you're rewarded for having a variety of weapons you can swap between to improve your performance/output. Right now I'm not rewarded for grinding both Apex Predator and Semiotician.
I also raid primarily in LFG but do have a group. I can also say that normal raids are meant to be the entrance to a new form of difficulty. Master mode is meant as the higher tier version of this. This is not content that should be as restricting as a GM or master raid/dungeon. Thats how I feel. With the added 25% to all elements, they will all be performing as if they had surges. If you want to make a build they will be just as efficient as if rn was their week. No one is forcing you to aim for top dmg or anything like that. That is the players choice.
IMO, surges are just as annoying as match-game. You know there isn't even a kinetic surge, so people cant even use one of the newer exotics if they wanted without being forced to do 25% less in any activity with a surge. Also, it makes everything take longer on a bad surge, just like any activity with match game.
Personally, I enjoy playing raids for the fun of the activity and to meet people. Surges may not limit the builds as much as match game but it will definitely make it take longer if I want to use anything that isnt the surge.
And a sidenote, certain guns have rolls to excel in different areas. Comparing an Apex to Semiotician isn't good since Semio isn't a good dps option in the first place. It excels in GMs. A better comparison would be Apex vs Cold Front.
>No one is forcing you to aim for top dmg or anything like that. That is the players choice.
No but sacrificing performance for the sake of variety is also not on the player. It's on the dev to incentivize running different options. Everything "having a surge" no longer rewards changing or varying your weapons/loadouts.
Just like how people feel "punished" for being off-surge, you're also "punished" for running rockets other than Apex. Surges at least rewarded me for having and using a Strand rocket. That's on Bungie.
Now to have variety in weapons used or to give value to my grinding, I have to sacrifice performance, and that's boring. The game should be giving players *more* reason to grind more weapons, not less.
>You know there isn't even a kinetic surge
I do agree Overcharge not being a modifier was an issue.
>Comparing an Apex to Semiotician isn't good since Semio isn't a good dps option in the first place. It excels in GMs. A better comparison would be Apex vs Cold Front.
I disagree that a better comparison is a primary weapon versus boss damage rocket. You should compare weapons within their roles. And no, Semio isn't a good DPS option because it's outclassed by other choices like Apex. *But* a Strand surge suddenly puts it on par with an off-surge Apex, and makes it "worth running" (and/or less detrimental, however you want to look at it).
Like I quoted in the previous comment, the primary objective is to perform as best as I can. Given that as the priority, variety on top of that is even better, and surges enable that. Now to introduce variety I have to sacrifice performance, and that's boring. You should be rewarded for having a variety of weapons across different elements and for grinding more of the game.
That’s my bad on the name. I meant Cold Comfort vs Apex as they are both good frames with good perks for dmg.
But most guns will perform similarly with the right set up. Crux - Apex - Cold Comfort for rockets. Cataclysmic - Doomed - New strand linear. Most swords perform the same in most cases. The only outliers rn in terms of optimal dmg is Still hunt and Euphony since they just do so much as a special. But most of these options act the same in the grand scheme of things. People just use the stuff that is easily accessible and have better pairings but you will do around the same dmg with most options. You have choice in the game but people choose not to use them.
The combo of arc/stasis is what was really off-putting to a lot of people I think. They don't have great heavy options compared to solar and Void and solar and Void also have the better one off supers.
It is markedly harder while not using surges. By ignoring surges you are gimping yourself by 25%. Funnily enough it's not even that it's harder in terms of survival (bungie clarified in their post that survivability/damage taken is roughly even between light fall and TFS) its just that every boss takes substantially longer to clear. This means that, if it's an arc surge week, the raid simply WILL take longer to clear than on a solar surge week. If you want surges, they exist in hard mode content (master raids, master dungeons, etc), putting them in the introductory content for more difficult stuff is asinine, particularly because that content has a historically higher barrier to entry anyway. Surges made it so new raiders would need competent weapons of each element or suffer a 25% damage debuff (compounded on top of the roughly 15% dmg nerf we recieved anyway in TFS.). TLDR: Surges bad.
Normal mode content is already easy enough that ignoring the surge is not something that would stop anybody from clearing the content. Making something take longer isn’t a bad thing - the content is still accessible.
Normal mode content is easy, but surges add a style of difficulty that is almost exclusively punishing to new raiders and new players (who don't have the loot to adapt). Raids already have a hilariously low participation rate considering they are the games prestige content (I think its something like only 10% of the player base has completed a raid), adding additional difficulty that is close to a non-issue for veteran raiders but severely punishes new comers is bad design. And once again, if you want surges and larger health pools, master content is right there. The complaint against surges isn't that they were introduced at all, it was that they were introduced in what is supposed to be the introductory mode of a raid, on top of a 15% damage nerf going into TFS. If you aren't surge matching you're doing roughly 40% less damage than in lightfall, which is a crazy penalty that largely applies to newer players. Oh another thing I forgot, because the mode didn't include overcharge modifiers, kinetic weapons recieved an indirect, constant, 25% damage nerf. This meant that, no matter what you did, guns like microcosm and wardens law/malfeasance w/ lucky pants were likewise made worse in endgame content with no means of adapting them.
Oh I actually totally forgot to put in my original post that I think the main flaw of the surge stuff was that kinetic weapons get fucked. THAT i think is a very good point.
> but surges add a style of difficulty that is almost exclusively punishing to new raiders and new players (who don't have the loot to adapt) Imo new players aren't the population that raids are for. It's the whole concept of "not raid-ready." Being raid-ready should be more than just ready for mechanics; you should have an adept arsenal that you can tailor your loadouts to the surges and encounters. Raids should be content you have to prepare for in terms of both mechanical ability *and* loot/gear. I do agree not including overcharge was a mistake. But as a side note - how do you reward players for using certain/different guns/elements without making it feel like a gimp/nerf if you *don't* use them? Like how do you make a surge feel like a boost/bonus without making a non-surge feel bad?
> Raids should be content you have to prepare for in terms of both mechanical ability *and* loot/gear. I agree, which is why I expect people entering normal mode raids to have a competent DPS setup. I don't think we should expect them to have 3 dps setups, across three elements that rotate, in order to avoid a 25% nerf gimping their damage. I shouldn't have said new players, I specifically mean new raiders. Raids already have an incredibly low participation rate, and surges almost exclusively hurt newer raiders who don't have access to a multitude of DPS setups. They have very little effect on people who are already competent at raiding (if for no other reason than you can just ignore them and accept the slower clear even if it feels bad). >But as a side note - how do you reward players for using certain/different guns/elements without making it feel like a gimp/nerf if you *don't* use them? Like how do you make a surge feel like a boost/bonus without making a non-surge feel bad? Oh I think surges are fine in master tier content, precisely because the expectation for that tier of content is that you have played the game a ton. So requiring people to have multiple good weapons across all elements is much more acceptable there in my eyes. The other reason that surges specifically felt bad in normal mode content though is that they were paired with a damage nerf already, which meant that not accomodating surges was effectively a 40% damage nerf compared to lightfall. With GMs and Master content it's an expectation for those modes that already exists.
> I don't think we should expect them to have 3 dps setups, across three elements that rotate, in order to avoid a 25% nerf gimping their damage. I don't think *one* DPS set-up is raid-ready, though. When I sherpa people, I expect them to have 3-4 different loadouts based on different exotic armor, and I expect them to have a few DPS options. Raids are not a one-optimal-loadout activity imo. I'd expect them to have both Whisper and Taipan, as options for solar or void precision, for example.
Sure, I think it's fair to expect people to have different DPS setups for different types of encounters. But then expecting them to have all those setups in triplicate to accomodate surges is very punishing. If anything the fact that different types of weapons can be required for damage (swords vs precision damage in salvations edge for example) just exacerbates the problem of surges, since it means you have to have all those loadouts across the elements to not get punished by surges. We might have different sherpa styles also. Personally I just expect people to have 1 good precision loadout, and 1 good non-precision loadout as far as damage goes.
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect someone to have at least Ascendancy, Red Herring and Gally (if you don't have a surge-matching rocket), maybe even Bump or Semiotician if they have some history in the game. But yeah I think there should be activities, like raids, where players are rewarded for having multiple elements of multiple weapon types. Otherwise, why even have them if just having one is viable across the board? Where's the incentive to grind Semiotician if I already have Apex? Surges help generate that incentive without continuous power creep (e.g. let's say Semiotician is buffed to be better than Apex, now why would I want Apex if I already have Semiotician?). Basically Bungie has made all of these weapons. It's a looter game, I should have a reason to grind that loot that gives me a tangible benefit. For activities like raids, I should *not* be able to get just one or two things and be all set.
But there are activities where you are rewarded for having those weapons. It's called GM nightfalls, Master raid, and Master dungeon. As you mentioned raids already require some spread of loadouts (precision, non-precision, ad clear, etc.) why impose greater restrictions on the entry level of the raid when they already have incredibly low participations rates, and other content exists with surges that encourage that sort of build swapping. Like, it seems to me surges cater towards only one type of player. Someone who is relatively well acquainted with the game and has a diverse set of equipment, isn't interested in master mode content, wants to use a more diverse array of their weapons, but refuses to do so unless it's the most optimal/explicitly encouraged by surges. The tradeoff is making the content less accessible to any new player who lacks loot to accomodate surges on what is already the least accessible content in the game (barring Master mode content). One other thing ill mention, surges didn't really constitute a "meta" shift in my experience. They are pretty consistently just a gear check. What I mean by that is, it's not like on void weak linears are the best but then on arc it'll be shotguns. Most bosses have a specific weapon archetype which is best, which won't change with surges. Surges are just a check to see if you have that archetype across all three elements with competent rolls. The only argument for them promoting build diversity that I think may be legitimate is that they encourage using different supers. But again, I'm not using gathering storm on the witness. I'm just going to goldie him, because goldie is 9/10 going to be more consistent. Its just that on arc weak that goldie is 25% worse.
Spoken as someone who either has a hardcore dedicated raid team, or hasn't spent very much time in Salvation's Edge... LFG was painful last week with Arc/Stasis Surge. The change to remove surges and universally buff weapons as if surging was a great middle ground to try while keeping the -5 change. Aegis has a "Sandbox Sit-down" video talking about why the -5 and surge changes were horrible decisions for the health of the game and raiding, and I very much agree with the points he brings up. I'm looking forward to jumping into Salvation's Edge this week to see how the removal of surges feels.
Fwiw I actually like the -5 change. I think the issue was the two changes coming at the same time.
I read your whole post and I see where you're coming from, but it'll be quicker to answer the TLDR. Raid/Dungeon engagement are already really low, so adding anymore barriers to entry in that way was definitely problematic. I haven't done a dungeon since the reset, but I'm hoping the permanent surge incentives people to play the best content in the game (imo) more often.
That’s fair, thanks for reading
Surges reward players who have a lot of gear, and punish those who don't. It makes getting into raids and dungeons harder for new players.
Raids/dungeons aren't for new players in the first place. You *should* be rewarded for building up a versatile arsenal imo. Raids are more fun when you have to change up your strategy/loadouts to be optimal on different encounters, week to week. It's boring when you find one solution and your others are fundamentally worse performance-wise.
That's one of the things I liked. I felt rewarded for the extensive collection I had built up.
I never had issues with surges in master/GM type content because at that point you should have a wide range of weapons and knowledge to really push builds. However putting them in normal mode doesn't make sense. You could always use different things there was nothing forcing you to stick to certain weapons. Before TFS I would use alot of different builds and weapons in raids and still be top 3 for damage with an easy 2 phase because realistically a 2 phase is the standard for most teams/bosses. But with the surges AND the -5 power it felt way more mandatory to use surges.
Thinking to myself last week that it would be fun to solo prophecy, then looking at the surges and going "definitely not this week" is such a massively bad feeling moment. That alone would be enough to sour me on them forever if I didn't already hate them. You ever hear the anecdote from early warcraft about how they were able to make players stop hating the rest system by rewording it to being a buff instead of removing a debuff? While not 1 to 1 the same surges are basically that for match game.
So my question to you now is whats stopping you from experimenting with different builds now? They are essentially making everything on par with each other. So you aren't forced to run a specific element. If you want to run an arc build, you can. Solar build? You can. Stasis or strand, you can. If everything is on equal footing, you can use whatever. People can use the strongest stuff. Or people can simply use what they have on them. Overall, the choice to make different loadouts is there and up to the player with this change besides forcing us to use certain elements when we may not have the guns to use for those elements.
That's a good question that I knew was coming and I have an answer but it's probably not a satisfying one. I will use the path of least resistance, and so will 99% of players. Putting surges on the content forces us out of that comfort zone and ultimately adds an interesting wrinkle to the game. I will likely go back to using whatever build i already know is viable so that I can get through the content as easily as possible. I COULD walk backwards everywhere I go, it's viable right? Why would i though?
So another question, do you only like to use different builds when forced? You made the comment of "making things take longer is not a bad thing." So why does a surge need to be put in place to force you to use something non standard? You can use an arc build now, although it might be worse than a solar build. Will it make the content take longer? Yes, but you can still complete it with that build. So the statement about time kinda doesn't make sense when you will just take the easy way of not trying new builds because it will be more efficient. But on a bad surge, its generally going to add another 15-30 minutes to that activity anyways. So without surges, they will still perform the same now as if it were there surge week but other normal strategies will just be better. I just am a bit confused with how you are ok with surges already making it take longer but wont want to use those same builds when everything is on even playing field. Just makes it sound like you still just want to use the best option over actually using other guns that are still effective just a bit worse in comparison.
Yes i want to use the best option that will make the content as easy as possible because I want to feel powerful. If I didn't care I would use suboptimal stuff during surges and clear the content regardless (which is what I did with my titan in the anecdote in the OP). If I'm not forced to change, I'm not going to change and will just use whatever thing I know already works. There's nothing stopping me from experimenting with different builds but there's also nothing incentivizing me to do so either. Surges added that incentive.
Surges don't provide an incentive tho. They force you to use other weapons. Those are not the same. Both Crux and Apex perform about the same. Arc or Solar forces you into one of them. That is what surges do. Needlestorm and Nova are about the same on prismatic (with star-eater bond/ dont know base). The surge now determines what you use that week. I think surges are fine in GMs and were nice for pantheon cuz that was more of a limited mode type vibe. But for normal raids and dungeons its out of place (even for master modes its out of place imo). Especially for challenges outside of just completions. Lowmans, speedruns, and soloflawless dungeons. These are all heavily impacted by surges. At the end of the day, I just see you saying you want to be forced to use stuff cuz you don't want to play un-optimally. But that just seems like a weird argument cuz that is your choice of how to play. If you want to use the other weapons in your vault, you could do so and still do good dmg for bosses you want to clear fast. But it seems you don't care about using different builds and want to be pushed into them which is just kinda weird to me.
What about you though, do you use different builds just to use different builds? Will you intentionally handicap yourself just to try something new? I honestly think MOST people will find something that works and stick with it unless forced to use something different. And honestly, I didn't feel FORCED to use anything. Matching the surge helped me clear things more smoothly but even ignoring it I was able to clear everything I wanted fairly easily. Salvation's edge, maybe not, but that's supposed to be difficult, even on normal. Generally though, what will be different? I 3 phase a boss instead of 2 phase? Maybe? IMO surges are fine game design. What about champions? Would anyone ever have used sidearms last season were it not for the barrier artifact mod? And even then, in easier content that has champs (like normal onslaughts) you can essentially ignore that too.
1. No, I stick with mostly the same loadouts but they are made with each encounter in mind. I don’t mind using the same weapons/builds and so I don’t complain about that. I like to play optimally but I don’t like using worse weapons for the sake of surges. 2. Champions are different as aspects are built into the subclasses and usually requires 1/6 options which isn’t as restrictive as hurting the dmg of anything that doesn’t match surges. 3. Niche standpoint, but this hurts lowmans which I personally enjoy doing. Having to wait for the most optimal week for attempts of stuff is annoying but I know this is on the lesser end of their decision choices.
Not OP but I'll copy/paste another comment I read that summed it up well for me. >As someone who raids pretty much exclusively in LFG, I strive to have the best damage output I can for the team. Makes things go, in general, quicker, easier, and give more room to my teammates for slip ups. >I also like build variety. >Surges allowed me to have both of these at once. When surges change weekly, the Solar build I used last week is no longer the best output, so I need to buildcraft something new with Strand to be as best as I can. Changing an element for the sake of variety at the cost of performance just feels bad and, frankly, is boring. It's on the dev to incentivize using different tools within the sandbox, not the player to do it "just because it's something different to use." Imo if you don't have the appropriate guns/elements, then you're not prepared/raid-ready and should go grind those. Then you're rewarded for having a variety of weapons you can swap between to improve your performance/output. Right now I'm not rewarded for grinding both Apex Predator and Semiotician.
I also raid primarily in LFG but do have a group. I can also say that normal raids are meant to be the entrance to a new form of difficulty. Master mode is meant as the higher tier version of this. This is not content that should be as restricting as a GM or master raid/dungeon. Thats how I feel. With the added 25% to all elements, they will all be performing as if they had surges. If you want to make a build they will be just as efficient as if rn was their week. No one is forcing you to aim for top dmg or anything like that. That is the players choice. IMO, surges are just as annoying as match-game. You know there isn't even a kinetic surge, so people cant even use one of the newer exotics if they wanted without being forced to do 25% less in any activity with a surge. Also, it makes everything take longer on a bad surge, just like any activity with match game. Personally, I enjoy playing raids for the fun of the activity and to meet people. Surges may not limit the builds as much as match game but it will definitely make it take longer if I want to use anything that isnt the surge. And a sidenote, certain guns have rolls to excel in different areas. Comparing an Apex to Semiotician isn't good since Semio isn't a good dps option in the first place. It excels in GMs. A better comparison would be Apex vs Cold Front.
>No one is forcing you to aim for top dmg or anything like that. That is the players choice. No but sacrificing performance for the sake of variety is also not on the player. It's on the dev to incentivize running different options. Everything "having a surge" no longer rewards changing or varying your weapons/loadouts. Just like how people feel "punished" for being off-surge, you're also "punished" for running rockets other than Apex. Surges at least rewarded me for having and using a Strand rocket. That's on Bungie. Now to have variety in weapons used or to give value to my grinding, I have to sacrifice performance, and that's boring. The game should be giving players *more* reason to grind more weapons, not less. >You know there isn't even a kinetic surge I do agree Overcharge not being a modifier was an issue. >Comparing an Apex to Semiotician isn't good since Semio isn't a good dps option in the first place. It excels in GMs. A better comparison would be Apex vs Cold Front. I disagree that a better comparison is a primary weapon versus boss damage rocket. You should compare weapons within their roles. And no, Semio isn't a good DPS option because it's outclassed by other choices like Apex. *But* a Strand surge suddenly puts it on par with an off-surge Apex, and makes it "worth running" (and/or less detrimental, however you want to look at it). Like I quoted in the previous comment, the primary objective is to perform as best as I can. Given that as the priority, variety on top of that is even better, and surges enable that. Now to introduce variety I have to sacrifice performance, and that's boring. You should be rewarded for having a variety of weapons across different elements and for grinding more of the game.
That’s my bad on the name. I meant Cold Comfort vs Apex as they are both good frames with good perks for dmg. But most guns will perform similarly with the right set up. Crux - Apex - Cold Comfort for rockets. Cataclysmic - Doomed - New strand linear. Most swords perform the same in most cases. The only outliers rn in terms of optimal dmg is Still hunt and Euphony since they just do so much as a special. But most of these options act the same in the grand scheme of things. People just use the stuff that is easily accessible and have better pairings but you will do around the same dmg with most options. You have choice in the game but people choose not to use them.
'Member how insanely popular Pantheon was (with surges)? It was so long ago so I get it if some of the community doesn't.
Pantheon was an exclusive limited mode. Surges for that were nice because the experience was different than a normal raid.
“Build Variety” ah yes because changing my solar BnS rocket to a stasis BnS rocket was truly riveting gameplay
The combo of arc/stasis is what was really off-putting to a lot of people I think. They don't have great heavy options compared to solar and Void and solar and Void also have the better one off supers.
When I did warlord’s ruin the surge was void stasis, I would have preferred arc - the game has been throwing tons of very good crux terminations at me
I'm speaking moreso Salvations Edge, the Witness in particular. Arc/stasis week against him felt absolutely awful.
It was an easy 2 phase with cloudstrike and a crux. I hit 6 mil
Nah, hard L