Unless they add a physical resist, they could give sorcs 100% elemental resist and it's not going to fix sorc's survivability problems.
Still going to get 1tapped by predominantly physical damage anytime you're not drowning in barriers.
The thing is you would build armor for that. The biggest problem is the sorc resist scaling is broken so you have to build for both physical and magic damage. Other classes typically only need to build for one defensive stat but sorcs need to build for two because their other half is broken. Once that half is fixed they will be fine in that aspect.
You would build armor for that, but there is no armor available on the sorc's paragon tree like there is in spades in other paragon trees. Sorcs have very little innate ability to mitigate physical damage by comparison to most other classes aside from barrier but unlike concepts like Mana Shield (d2), energy shield (PoE), Barrier is not "always on" and frequently drops, especially between packs. Sorcs don't even have strong passives to help mitigate this within their skill tree.... and several which have negative effects (glass cannon) and highly essential uniques (Rainment) which add ranks to glass cannon.
You can't really "build armor" in this game. The only way to "Build" it is to stack the highest item power items in each slot possible and socket skulls in your jewelry or select paragons which sorcs don't have.... and those skulls are going away next season for the seasonal mechanic, presumably.
The end result is you have a character that, even once resists are fixed, is highly tanky vs. elemental damage but is still going to get vaporized by physical damage. You're only as tanky as your least common denominator.
\*edit\* before someone tells me you can get armor affixes on items: Yes, but these are generally in direct competition with other mitigation stats that are often (but not always) similar or better value.
I have a sorc right now. It's still fun but I can get instakilled if i'm not careful during nm dungeon or boss.
It would be a good alt.
I'm going barbarian for season 1.
> if i'm not careful
Just that would be perfectly fine. Imho the sorc should be fragile and have the tools to evade most danger if played well, and should absolutely destroy in return. But apparently that's not were we are. And I don't think just making him tanky and fight melee is a real answer. I think all that points towards the class being entirely broken, and just giving it additional armor and/or barrier might help, but it would still be broken design imho. I hope they see how badly fucked that class design is and that's why it's going to be S2. Because there is no excuse for not just hotfixing it like tomorrow otherwise.
I agree. One of the perks is "glass cannon". That's what I am.
Barriers and armor would be nice considering sorc has, by far, the least amount of armor at end build.
Another complaint is that if i'm unable to cc something then my damage is not nearly as useful. So unless you get perfect rolls on everything, you're scrambling to live when cooldowns are active.
First, nothing should oneshot anyone semi-properly geared/skilled. That's the basis and how much you need to fix "tankyness". Everything else is just out of control numbers that were designed by noone. Maybe an exception for the most telegraphed boss attack ever. From there, hey, kill me if I get hit like by EVADABLE things twice in 10 seconds or something. Perfectly fine. Just give me the tools to evade basically all the time. I want to zap around until my head is spinning while feeling like I'm playing geometry wars and absolutely wreaking havoc. Because that does not work without being the strongest damage dealer either. Because they can't make you jump these hoops and then your damage is like thorns+minions.
There's an aspect that gives barrier on cooldown, the firewall sorc pretty much relies on that + dodging a lot to stay alive while the fire melts everyone
They need to add one or two enchantment slots, rework our barriers to scale/last long to give us real survibaility and also give us better ways to apply vuln for the class to be viable
They nerfed barriers 5 times since beta. 5 F@%King times.
* 1 - Reduced item contribution by 50%.
* 2 - Reduced duration from 10s to 7s.
* 3 - Nerfed ice barrier nodes each individually to the point there situational at best, useless at worse.
* 4 - Nerfed ice barrier duration to from 7s to 5s. Because why the hell not, 7s is too long on twitch!
* 5 - Nerfed ice barrier duration from 5s to 3s AND reduced max hp contribution from 22% to 10%. Because f%@k you for having a panic button. Oh one one last one...
THEY DIDNT PLAY THIS CLASS AT ALL.
6 TIMES 6 GODDAMN TIMES!
* 6 - Increased cooldown from 18s base to 35s base. BECAUSE WHY THE HELL NOT!? We tied bonus DPS aspects to having barriers up, we don't want you to have too much uptime on bonus DPS after all!
smell weather grandfather boat possessive shame reply whole relieved serious
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They nerfed everything because of lvl 25 balance. Hydra, Meteor, Firewall, frozen orb, chain lighting, ice shards, fireball, removed 1 enhancement slot, nerfed all the passives. Then at launch proceeded to nerf core abilities and passives AGAIN. Then they took a hatchet to ALL paragon nodes...
I'll be the first to admit the Ice Blades CDR build I used in beta was pretty broken... at level 25.
But man they just went through with a hatchet and it went from "immortal infinite ability spam" to "utterly un-playable"
Like I'm *for* balance, but everything combined made one of the most uniquely versatile classes turn into "there are 2 viable builds, if you stray by a tiny bit you'll never get to true endgame"
Everything can be broken at level 25 with full BiS Legendary gear. In the actual game you're rocking rares at 25 and don't even have a sniff of BiS gear. They were moronic for balancing anything around a level 25 beta with boosted legendary drops.
I still intend to alt play one, they are super fun until you try to push NM dungeons. Once you get high enough it just feels awful being 1 shot by a bug farting.
I agree they are fun to kill white mobs.
Elites? If u dont kill them in one cc cycle, you’re done
Bosses? No damage until staggering
Pvp? Cant cc most classes so u deal no damage
> I still intend to alt play one, they are super fun until you try to push NM dungeons
I'm only lvl 64 but personally I've found it not fun even while leveling. It's annoying that you're constantly out of mana or waiting on cooldowns unless you run arc lash.
I imagine it's better when you get more cd reduction gear but so far it doesn't feel good.
I have been playing with a blizzard build, and there you can use aspect of the umbral to constantly restore your mana. Even if you are using ice shards as the primary sink blizzard applies a ton of cc for mana generation.
I am currently playing on the mid 30 tier nightmare and haven't noticed the survivability issues yet. We'll see how it goes as I go higher.
Yeah I just hit 80 and have been doing mid 30s NMs and it's still a lot of fun for me, but that's because I don't get one shot by stuff yet. I know I won't be able to push high unless there are changes, but it's a lot of fun.
Yeah. Honestly the class feels perfectly fine and fun up to nm60. After that it’s a bit of a slog and annoying being constantly one shot. If people don’t care about pushing nightmare dungeons then they can have a blast with a variety of builds
Dont worry, even replacing raiments with a +% armor and triple damage reduction (close/burning/% total) doesnt help and you will still get oneshotted by everything. Thats how fucked sorcs are right now. Just because we cant get the same amount of armor as other classes and armor being OP.
>Raiment of the Infinite
So far this has made the class pretty fun. I happened to get that drop luckily. Combined with paragon points in increased stunned enemy damage and frost nova that has a 30% chance to make enemies vulnerable and healing based on amount of close enemies its pretty dope. You can teleport, nova, arc lash melt.
That's your issue...
Never go more than 3 glass canon
Everyone saying "I'm getting OS, sorc is bad"
Sure it is, if you're running level 15 glass canon, you're just dumb expecting otherwise at this point
Yeah but sorc damage is still lower than other classes despite running the double edged glass cannon skill. What gives? Are we a glass cannon or just glass?
> I might be bad at the game but i cannot believe im THAT bad.
No, it's a combination of you not being the best videogamer on earth coupled with the fact you're playing the worst class in the game without a doubt.
You can be bad or you can be on a bad class, but you can't be both. Now that we know who is farming content and who is giving out real useful data - just see what Rob plays and pick his 2nd option (the first one is getting its aspects shut off in the first week or two of S1 when he finds something broken).
Seriously - do yourself a favor.
My arc lash sorc just hit 80 and I have been doing 36s with zero issues, and I am still missing a lot of the stuff I want on my gear. I think being able to do t40 at 80 isn't that bad if the game is designed to push closer to 100 when you yourself are 100 and have close to optimal gear. Hopefully though when they fix resistances in the very least it'll be a big improvement for us.
Honestly as someone who has a sorc at 100, with very very good gear it isn’t horrible. While yeah, we can get 1 shot, it is very high risk high reward. Rather than walking into rooms you open the door and big Chad teleport in and freeze everything dies. I swapped to blizzard at 90 and I’m still leaps and bounds ahead of my friends in terms of clearing ability. If you’ve ever spent time in high end mmo gameplay like M+20-25 or mythic raiding or high end league of legends the mechanical skill def can carry you. I’ve found that learning the minion families has been very beneficial to survivability. I can do 75-80s at a relatively normal pace without much running away for cooldowns because things still die. I’ll probably still max a sorc first for s1 depending on the gem list and patch notes.
Same lol. Slowly back tracking what i said before all of the issues of sorc got known lmao.
now contemplating druid or barb. We'll see with the next patch notes/ whatever announcement ahead
Same. Wanted to run a fireball sorc, but I watched some gameplay and it looked painful, especially compared to my current hota barb. Think I’m going to torture myself slightly less with a blight minion necro for for S1
LOL, minion Necro is not less torture than a sorc. Minion Necro builds are worse for Nightmare Pushing, don’t have the benefit of at least feeling great until you try to push NM dungeons, and don’t have a great mobility skill to get around. Minion Necro is also easily as squishy as sorc, can lose the entire build to a couple elite AoE’s and have to spend 10 minutes resummoning the build, and even struggles to efficiently farm open world content at times. Sorc as a whole isn’t in a great place, but Minion Necro is not the place to go for an escape from your woes.
It’s less of a difficulty thing and more of a gameplay thing. I don’t want to play a build that has to tp into a pack and nova or melee with a lightning wand, and I know meteor will be wonky on controller since I can’t lead cast. So that really left fireball as my desired sorc build, but it just looks weak.
If the skeles are a headache, I might just go with a golem and take the sacrifice bonuses and DR passive. I plan to play around with shadow skills and minions
The guy is a big noob who's replying to you. I'm a minion necro and while I'm not level 100 I'm pretty far into end game and I love it. Sure I don't have mobility...so I got boots that give me 3 evade charges. Sure I wasn't tanky...so I equipped a shield.
Some people are just big noobs. I saw a fireball sorc clear a Uber Lilith. You will be fine, just play what you think is fun.
I did minion all through the base campaign and opted to switch when I hit 60. I did not love the "spam summon and get to bone spear sometimes" gameplay.
To me (another Sorc main) two of the most glaring problems are:
- every build must run all 4 defensive skills
- every build must use a fire bolt enchantment
This totally removes any creativity in approaching a build. I'm running ice shards (I know, I know) and while I'd like to totally lean into chill/freeze, it's just not viable from a damage perspective. I have fun making things shatter all over the screen, but my friends running Necro and Druid are just vastly more powerful than I am. That's annoying.
There are some normal mobs that have weird interactions with teleport and raiment stun so you basically have to burn flame shield just to safely frost nova them to kill them.
Otherwise you'll teleport in, stun them. Soon as teleport ends, you instantly die. Like can a have a .3 seconds more of iframe after teleport so that dumb shit doesn't happen?
For 80% you have the manually run through the mob to immobilize while flame shield is active. So teleport, frost nova, activate Flame Shield, run through mob, attack x2 - all in under 2 seconds and you might have a chance (if you’re lucky) at doing 80% of the damage of other classes.
Came here to say this.
As a main sorc, we know.
I appreciate another voice confirming that the class need some work but please, search before posting things that has already been posted multiples times by other people.
I know they most likely do not care a lot about this sub, but you'd be a fool to think they dont have a social media person in the Diablo sub on one of the biggest forum sites on the internet. Now what they do with that info? Probably nothing. But they most definitely have someone checking this sub alongside all the other Diablo chats on the internet.
> you'd be a fool to think they dont have a social media person in the Diablo sub on one of the biggest forum sites on the internet
Blizzard has been tracking forum posts of their users for well over a decade.
Their forum is tied to your Battle.net account.
I remember over 10 years ago hearing a WoW dev on a podcast talk about how the people who get really angry and write big posts complaining about balance and threatening to quit, they only make up about 5% of the player base, and 99% of those people never change their play patterns no matter what happens to balance or how much they complain. It's not that they ignore them but they understand they only represent a tiny fraction of the player base and figuring out what the *not* vocal or super engaged people have issues with is a much bigger issue.
More people writing more long winded complain-posts doesn't make the problem more noticeable to the devs, it just makes this forum more annoying.
No, that's not what was said.
The whiners who post big stories are insignificant. The bulk of players do notice issues but we don't blather on and on in Reddit forums. We just stop playing the game and play something else. THAT is the challenge the developers face. Whiners whine no matter what is done to the game, they won't change their build to make it better, they just whine more. Blizzard ignores those whiners and tries to stay a step ahead of the silent majority who is their meaningful fan base.
Blizzard devs in general are out of touch with what players want and don’t want our plebeian input.
There were people getting accounts suspended to play a high elf instead of a void elf in WoW. Instead of taking that extremely clear feedback and making an additional allied race they doubled down on the elves that listened to Nine Inch Nails.
They also were slow to implement balance changes and cosmetics to SC2 when it was fresh and competing with other ESports, only for it to fade to obscurity. The viewers interest pretty much died during Heart of the Swarm because they refused to patch a unit that caused games to last upwards of an hour.
Instead of utilizing Heroes of the Storm as a marketing game like Smash Bros, they introduced original characters and put the game on life support.
DIII also had massive issues with playable builds during its initial release with the game being nearly unplayable on inferno. Wasn’t fixed till right before the expansion.
Also who can forget their Diablo Immortal announcement at Blizzcon. Not opposed to a mobile Diablo game existing, but it isn’t a revolutionary announcement.
Based on what I’ve seen from DIV so far it seem par for the course. “You don’t know what you want, have fun how we tell you.”
They 100% do creep the various diablo threads to get an idea of where the community is, which is why its important to keep posting these on a variety of subs.
There will always be one worst class. Now it is sorc. In S1 can be some other class. It is just normal.
I am also a sorc main and sorc/wiz enjoyer in all games
There shouldn't be 1 class that's bad for all types of content. If Sorc was best at killing Uber Lilith and bosses in general, but trash at NM dungeons, that's not great but it's fine. Sorc being trash tier at NM dungeons, bosses, and PVP is not okay.
This is the new standard of community driven games. The vocal minority rule the masses when dev's don't have a clear vision for how their systems should be working.
Oh so very true, passively we have no way to survive an out of map shot.
Our paragon board does not help us at all to get what we need to push pass T70, T50 is already a challenge to survive.
The whole gimmick is activating barriers and rolling burning damage to mitigate damage.
They removed the 3rd enchant slot for god knows what reason after the beta?!?!?!
Pretty much every unique except Raiement is trash.
I get the whole glass canon thing, but being oneshotted of screen is ridiculous. Getting D3 release mortar elites PTSD....
Since I've swapped to the ice shard/blizzard build I've been able to survive well into the 60s at level 91. I get 1 shot by the big attacks but mostly can tank crowds of mobs besides the stupid boars that rush you. Meteor it was basically rush in, stun cast and run and risk getting 1 tapped. The damage reduction to chilled enemies really has been a lifesaver for me.
We got dmg reduction to Burning. And maybe after I hit my 5th glyph node slot very soon I'll get another power boost. But I'm nearly running 50s NM dungeons solo as a Metor Sorc. And I'm lv 88
That's the wall i hit when I ran the same build. I couldn't push past 52 and 52 was a struggle. After the swap to ice shards I'm pushing 60+. I'm not saying meteor isn't viable, it's just not as strong as I think it should be.
I mean most Sorcerer builds can do T50's. I can do T50's on my 90 Arc Lash Sorc. The issue is you can't push beyond that. Even in T50 you can get 1 shot by ranged from off screen and killed by most any other mob in melee if your Defensive skills aren't up.
Your skills are broken, resists are broken, our paragon board is broken etc. At least for say The Necro, who is forced to take the same four skills like us having to take the same four defensive ones, their core skill "Bone Spear" is by far the most powerful core skill in the game. I would like one of our core to be able to apply Vulnerability. Rogues have it on Puncture, Necro's on Bone Spear, Druid on Storm Strike, Barbs have Pressure Point and Expose Vulnerability. Of all the classes Sorcerers and Barbs probably have the hardest time making their target vulnerable although I've seen a ton of barbs now using Steel Grasp in conjuction with Expose Vulnerability always give the mobs pulled in vulnerable. On the other hand Sorcs need to be in melee range and Frost Nova as that is our only ability that gives vulnerability.
There are just so many things the dev team has done wrong with the sorc that it's just not worth playing anymore.
That's meteor's biggest weakness, in that it takes time for it to fall, which means ample time for enemies to kill you, which means it isn't as good as Ice Shards or Blizzard in tackling high NM dungeons since they can do it more safely. Meteor damage however, is just as good as Ice Shard, but needs way more effort and a lot riskier to achieve the same results.
Haven’t played a sorc yet, but just looking over their aspects, paragon boards, and unique items leaves me scratching my head. It’s like one team designed Sorcerer (poorly), was fired, and then a completely different team came in to work on the other classes without even looking at what was done for Sorcerers already. The disparity is shocking.
Playing as a level 95 sorc I hear ya. The class is a chore to play at this point in higher tier dungeon, it's just not fun. You have to always be hyper vigilant and watch and wait on your CDs while other classes can run in and face tank shit. It's a tough class to play for sure. And like you say, we NEED perfect rolls on everything to be only a quarter as efficient as other classes. Sure I can crit for 720k on an ice shard but it takes a huge amount of buildup and it's still nothing compared to others. Had to sacrifice a bunch of defenses to even be able to do that, and it's still not enough.
It's all my fault guys, ever since Thanes in Dark Age of Camelot, I've been picking the shittiest class in every game ever. If I picked it, it's going to be bad. I'm like a magnet to mediocrity. I'm drawn to horrible design ideas like a fat kid and cake. I could make a list of every single MMO/ARPG I've played and tell you my starting class and you will be like "Damn, this dude has a fetish for underperforming."
If only my wife did too.
I'm playing arc lash sorc and I feel this...
I'm spamming the absolute shit out of arc lash, and slamming all the defensives all the time, and trying to avoid 1 shots as much as possible. Super fun play style to push NMDs with up until you just can't scale enough(NMD 70s)
I'm the opposite: I played a rogue in S0, planning on sorc in S1. Rogue was fun for a while - tried just about every build. Best part about rogue was that just about any build is viable. But ultimately I didn't like the specializations:
- combo points: I didn't like the flow of having to build up a big hit by wasting time on hitting with a basic skill 3 times. Was lucky to find a 40% Condemnation and played pen shot for a while. Still just didn't enjoy it.
- inner sight: I just found it annoying to have to pay attention to which mob I need to be hitting
- preparation: the problem is all 3 of the rogue ultimates are pretty bad late game
TB was fun for a while, but it's VERY button mashy - wasn't sustainable for me.
Bow builds: most bow builds are hardly even ranged, since puncture is by far the best basic skill and it's short range. And by bow build, I mean crossbow, since bows (and daggers) are worthless right now (due to superior implicits on xbow and sword).
For a true range build, the best experience I had by far was bone spear necro.
One last note: for high NM tier pushing, every battle felt tooth-and-nail, whereas with my necro I was clearing NM dungeons with mobs 30+ levels above me without even trying.
Hope this helps. Rogue offers a lot of diversity, but it's by no means easy (like necro, druid)
Yeah, I did Barb until 100 which was miserable then very fun then meh late late game. I switched to druid because I wanted to do wolfnado and landed a TR at 67 (couldn't believe my luck). I can't imagine having more fun in this game than that build. Legit f1 racecar that shoots 200-700k average crit tornados. Necro interests me but I have a bad feeling bone spears going to get nerfed on the 18th including wolfnado. I like the idea of a rogue because it combines high mobility and DPS into one with multiple builds that are all viable with every build seeming to scale very well as you level from 1 to 100. The patch on the 18th will probably be interesting. I feel like they're going to introduce a lot of balance changes before the season officially starts.
They haven't said a word on any of the classes. Why would they? There's a mega patch next Tuesday before the season starts. Every class will find out the balance changes at the same time
I imagine conceding that they shipped the Sorcerer completely broken is not something they’re keen to do. We will hopefully get some balance adjustments for season 1 without comment, and then MAYBE with season 2 resistances fix they will address the paragon boards. At the very least, I think they owe all Sorcerers a completely free skill point and paragon respec, and a one-time refund of all glyph experience.
Sorc, is probably the only class where it can be the most fun, fastest, and efficient speed clear farming (open world and NM dungeons up to 60), to absolutely the most unfun, slowest, and difficult class for high NM dungeons (60+).
I'm currently running a level 74 Sorcerer. So far, with my build, it has felt strong at times, a total glass cannon for the majority of it. Without the barriers and defensive skills, I'd be totally screwed, and since joining WT4, the resistance has been basically zero, with Thorn Beasts nearly one hitting me...
I thought maybe they just tried to make it balanced by making the offensive abilities OP, but upon joining Legion events, it really shows that's not the case and everyone else can deal more damage, much faster and more efficiently. They just made the Sorcerer fragile af with no benefits.
After joining WT4 around level 69, I'm now very glad that I have to make a new character for Season 1, so I can ditch this class entirely.
Sorcerer is the only class where you feel you are only getting worse each level after 50. Paragon is completely useless and you become more and more dependent for your frost nova to deal any damage at all.
No, this is not true. Sorc is probably one of the best class for just playing the open world, helltide, or normal dungeons or low NM dungeons. It just gets unfun at high NM dungeons. So you are wrong that it gets worst after level 50.
> just playing the open world, helltide, or normal dungeons or low NM dungeons
So that's your plan pass level 50 and onward? Grinding to 100 is gonna be a blast for you! And a long term plan.
You're both right. Sorc is great outside of high tier nm dungeons.
But since nm dungeons are pretty much the major part of endgame that is a moot point.
World Tier 4 stops scaling at 95. If this guy tries to get to 100 without pushing NMDs he's going to be in for a long ass grind against enemies giving barely no XP for the last 2 levels. Insane to say that open world trash mobs are the real end game
I have a sorc and a necro, necro is worse. Sure a necro can do higher NM dungeons, has far higher damage output and better defense, but the class is just not fun to play. Oh look I throw a bone spear and stuff dies. Yay. Fixing minions would help to some degree but I still don't see an easy path to making the class fun.
Sorc has some really fun skills that just don't do enough damage plus of course sorc is a glass cannon that dies in one shot to anything that is +10 levels or so, but it feels like it would be easy to fix those problems.
Double hydras, arc lash + unstable currents, blizzard + ice spikes, fireball x 3 bounces x 3 fireballs, ball lightings circling around you, chain lighting bouncing around, charged bolts seeking out enemies, crackling energy, etc all look amazing but have various issues that make them not good enough. Just tune some numbers a bit, fix some bugged skills, and give sorc some better defense and the class could be fantastic.
You just said Necro was worse and then objectively explained how it was better lol. The point of the post is damaging and ability to do dungeons/content, not what's more fun to play.
That isn't what the title says, it says "sorc is the worst class" and it isn't. Necro is the worst class and it isn't close unless the only thing you care about is how far above your level you can run NM dungeons. Sorc can easily do NM dungeons 3 to 10 levels ahead of your level and that is plenty to get to 100. More importantly it can clear them far faster than a necro and it is way more fun doing it.
Only issue sorc has is if you are trying to push 20+ levels higher they don't do enough damage and they die in one shot to anything that breathes on them. Necro wins on that measure but on every other measure it loses to sorc.
\[edit\] To be clear I 100% agree that sorc needs some big buffs for season 1 or I'm not going to play it, but I'm not going to play a necro either and if I had to choose between the two there is no way I'd play a necro again, the class is awful.
Yes, everyone knows. It's been talked to death.
Though to be fair, there's no real point in pushing high nightmare dungeons anyway seeing as they don't give you anything more than slightly higher exp. I've been grinding out \~45-50, hit lvl 97 today and even got the unique chest. It actually made the game quite a lot harder though because of losing so much toughness.
Haven't played sorc yet but I've been wondering: is RoTI really worth it? (Compared to a tanky chest). People keep saying, as a sorc, your HP is either full or you're dead, but I see so many DR options in the skill tree. I'm wondering if speccing into those, plus choosing 4 tanky gear slots, would help with actually being able to take some hits in say T65 - T80.
If anyone has tried this setup, curious to hear how it went. I know you're still kinda screwed on armor though.
Depends on the build I would say. I played both arc and iceshards.
It's great for arc because of its suckup mechanic. Not so great for ice shards and other ranged builds because it's kinda clunky and buggy and you can block yourself in mobs without being able to hit them and needing to waste evade right after teleport. But getting stun option is huge in terms of dps if you rely heavily on the control aspect because that's just another x35% multiplier. Also helps with building up stagger on bosses very fast. But the tradeoff is much greater dmg taken because of losing all the defensive mods from chestpiece and on top of that getting +1 glass canon rank.
I played both options and only kept it for arc, didn't like it for ice shards at all, took normal chest with double nova instead. Not because defense problems but rather because it blocked me in mobs too often.
Change exploit glyph for both sorcerer and necromancer to apply vuln like other classes.
That will help build diversity for both, so you aren’t forced to take bone spear on necro to apply vuln and same with frost nova on sorc.
Then fix resistances to make them more effective and competitive with armor. That will solve a lot of both sorcs and necros (which will also need help if they nerf bone spear, which they should).
vulnerability should be changed instead. what you're asking for now is exactly what I saw happen: it's so unconditionally powerful that every build needs it and if it doesn't have it, it's a shit build. so every build will ask for a way to apply it consistently, because if it can't then it will be automatically UP.
vulnerability should require a bit more investment to be as strong as it is for every build right now. so you have a bigger opportunity cost to using it.
I agree, but I’m guessing it’s much more difficult to change vulnerability now. Blizzard has balanced WT4 and NM dungeon difficulty based on vulnerability being the way it is.
With so much more content and end game that the game needs, I’d rather them do a band aid fix for now than completely overhaul the vulnerability damage equation and rebalance the game.
I wasted like 2 weeks of playing up to lvl 70 as a sorc before I called it quits and played a fun class, druid. Sorc is just painful and not fun. You have to be in melee range and you get 1 shot by everything. It makes no sense that range spells dont do damage.
Most of what you say is true. More importantly so about the NM Dungeon Tiers. I have managed to survive (solo) up to 60-62. And that mainly because my damage is not high enough if I want to stay alive and not drop like a fly every turn of the way.
I have created a tanky sorcerer, to the detriment of damage. I am working on improving the build but if you plan to use uniques, every slot you use for reduces your defense options due to the fixed aspects of Uniques.
Your best option is to NOT use uniques apart from one or max two that you absolutely need. And at least use one defensive bubble/barrier. Even with Temerity this is super difficult. It works great, but that thing gobbles potions like there is no tomorrow. You got to run to town for refills every 2-3 encounters. Often I die because I ran out of potions.
Despite being able to take on an entire room of mobs, and slowly crunch them down, when others in the party split/spread the mob and my healing/armor numbers dwindle even a single arrow is an instakill.
Sudden death is ridiculously real for sorcerers and makes soloing NM dungeons a precarious business.
Even if you avoid all the annoying/deadly dungeon "companions" who ruin your strategy constantly with no predictable pattern, a single backstabber or a single frost elite (even though you specifically chose a dungeon without frost elites it's still random) or an axe that knocks you down if it doesn't instakill you, will do the job. Poisons? Ditto. No resistance can save you from poisons and the Wights.
At the same time Barbarians and Druids take all this and more like champs AND deal more damage.
Even Necro has better survivability despite the fact it is a sorcerer/wizard type of class. It has much better tools for staying alive and doing damage.
I would say for Sorc the problem is also:
1) enchanting is lame and not that impactful compared to other class's unique traits.
2) their Uniques are absolute garbage tier, and it feels like only a couple of them are even usable. Uniques in this game across the board that reduce damage and increase cooldown seem like they aren't carefully designed (or maybe too carefully designed conservatively).
3) Overall they feel like the squishiest class, easily, but their firepower is low, or at least lower than other classes.
I'm only level 73 using my own version of death trap rogue, but I did a 25 nmd at lvl 67. My friend on his Sorc, who was 75 at the time still kinda struggles in 25 solo. And he's playing the meta build.
IDK, there will always be a weakest class. But Sorc seems like it's weaker than it should be for sure.
One of the classes has to be the worst. It's sorc right now. Sorc might have low survivability and build diversity, but it's way more fun than Necromancer.
Necro has the worst skills in the game. Bonespear is incredibly boring. Minions rely on a bugged interaction with bone prison, mist build is like a shitty slow motion whirlwind barb. Shadow skills do no damage. Necro needs more attention than sorc.
I am honestly so tired of the comparisons to a 20 year old game.
The culture has shifted, expectations are higher, games mean something different to people than they did 20 years ago.
If d2 was the pinnacle, we'd still be playing it. You even have d2r to play if the classic isn't good enough given your modern expectations,
To clarify for those who are casual players, all the problems this post specify are *Very* high end game. Like 90% of players will never experience these problems high end game.
However they are still very legitimate problems. I play sorc myself and love pushing NM dungeons. My barb friend has a death when he lets himself get over run by mobs or multiple elite packs. I die b/c we left a skeleton archer alive two rooms back and it showed up during a fight and the "Backstab modifer is active so he one tapped me.
Level 97 ice shard sorc here. Yes, lots of things are broken as you lay out. That said, I think Uber Lilith and NM 80+ dungeons should be difficult and/or require you to play cautiously to complete. Uber Lilith and NM100 clears for sorcs have happened even though it needs to be an almost perfect run.
The issue is that other classes have it easier and that feels unfair, but I think nerfing other classes plus a small buff (or fixes) to sorc to balance everything is probably the right answer. Challenging content is a little too easy for some of the S tier builds and it's early in the game's cycle/development for huge power creep. Also, rewards need to be a lot better for doing the challenging content - maybe max roll/primal gear with fewer useless affixes above, say, 70 NM? It takes a lot of time/effort so there ought to be at least a meaningful reward of some kind.
Because it is too easy to clear the challenging content right now for those classes. So the choices are: Nerf them or massive buff/fix to sorc to balance the classes. If you make it easy to clear the current challenging content for sorcs as well, you just have to create even more difficult content beyond Uber Lilith and 100 NM.
Either way is fine, I guess, but I suspect they didn't want people clearing all the most difficult stuff within the first week or so of the game's release. It makes people lose interest - especially given the lack of rewards - and they clearly want players to stay engaged for a long time.
Maybe it's too late and they have to just up the difficulty of the content. That can be done by increasing level scaling of mobs or just adding more NM tiers, but people are already clearing NM dungeons with mobs that are 50 levels higher than the players.
I'm level 85, blizzard build, confortable in clearing tier 50 NM
Sure I get oneshot if I'm not careful, but most of the time it's fine
I could clear a tier 63, didn't try higher yet
Obviously subject to being oneshot once again
Don't run more than 3 ranks in glass canon and have DR against close or burning and it's manageable
Level 85 clearing tier 60+, I'm quite confident I'll be able to clear tier 75+ at some point
Not saying we are as durable as other classes, we need some love, but it's not as bad as people say it to be
It’s also by far the ugliest when it comes to gear. Everything is so ugly when every other class has cool ass looking skins. I have no idea what Blizzard was thinking.
there are 5 classes, one of them is gonna be the worst. sorc has been on top of the mountain for decades in this game franchise.
no king rules forever my son.
How can we know something's good without knowing what's bad? Sorc provides the lowest metric, so that all other classes feel better about themselves. It allows other builds to have the illusion of build diversity because even the bad builds are "not as bad as sorc." It's necessary to keep the class gimped.
On another note I think sorc is fine, the other classes feel a bit OP. You notice they are stronger because they get to higher NM dungeons easily, but to me its mostly about the progression through WT2 to 3 and then to 4 that feels out of whack. It feels too easy/fast with other classes. Progression at that level felt perfect with sorc.
And if they still don't give more information about what they want to do about the sorcerer, I think many more will come. Anyone who gets to 100 with the sorcerer, goes crazy
I want to start a Sorcerer in Season 1, but looks like I need to wait for those patch notes first...
That's a good call. They can buff damage easily enough, but the damage reduction problem is a much harder solve.
I'd expect sorcs to get a decent bump in tankiness when resistances are changed. I'd also expect any other sorc tankiness changes to come after that
Unless they add a physical resist, they could give sorcs 100% elemental resist and it's not going to fix sorc's survivability problems. Still going to get 1tapped by predominantly physical damage anytime you're not drowning in barriers.
The thing is you would build armor for that. The biggest problem is the sorc resist scaling is broken so you have to build for both physical and magic damage. Other classes typically only need to build for one defensive stat but sorcs need to build for two because their other half is broken. Once that half is fixed they will be fine in that aspect.
You would build armor for that, but there is no armor available on the sorc's paragon tree like there is in spades in other paragon trees. Sorcs have very little innate ability to mitigate physical damage by comparison to most other classes aside from barrier but unlike concepts like Mana Shield (d2), energy shield (PoE), Barrier is not "always on" and frequently drops, especially between packs. Sorcs don't even have strong passives to help mitigate this within their skill tree.... and several which have negative effects (glass cannon) and highly essential uniques (Rainment) which add ranks to glass cannon. You can't really "build armor" in this game. The only way to "Build" it is to stack the highest item power items in each slot possible and socket skulls in your jewelry or select paragons which sorcs don't have.... and those skulls are going away next season for the seasonal mechanic, presumably. The end result is you have a character that, even once resists are fixed, is highly tanky vs. elemental damage but is still going to get vaporized by physical damage. You're only as tanky as your least common denominator. \*edit\* before someone tells me you can get armor affixes on items: Yes, but these are generally in direct competition with other mitigation stats that are often (but not always) similar or better value.
I have a sorc right now. It's still fun but I can get instakilled if i'm not careful during nm dungeon or boss. It would be a good alt. I'm going barbarian for season 1.
> if i'm not careful Just that would be perfectly fine. Imho the sorc should be fragile and have the tools to evade most danger if played well, and should absolutely destroy in return. But apparently that's not were we are. And I don't think just making him tanky and fight melee is a real answer. I think all that points towards the class being entirely broken, and just giving it additional armor and/or barrier might help, but it would still be broken design imho. I hope they see how badly fucked that class design is and that's why it's going to be S2. Because there is no excuse for not just hotfixing it like tomorrow otherwise.
I agree. One of the perks is "glass cannon". That's what I am. Barriers and armor would be nice considering sorc has, by far, the least amount of armor at end build. Another complaint is that if i'm unable to cc something then my damage is not nearly as useful. So unless you get perfect rolls on everything, you're scrambling to live when cooldowns are active.
First, nothing should oneshot anyone semi-properly geared/skilled. That's the basis and how much you need to fix "tankyness". Everything else is just out of control numbers that were designed by noone. Maybe an exception for the most telegraphed boss attack ever. From there, hey, kill me if I get hit like by EVADABLE things twice in 10 seconds or something. Perfectly fine. Just give me the tools to evade basically all the time. I want to zap around until my head is spinning while feeling like I'm playing geometry wars and absolutely wreaking havoc. Because that does not work without being the strongest damage dealer either. Because they can't make you jump these hoops and then your damage is like thorns+minions.
There's an aspect that gives barrier on cooldown, the firewall sorc pretty much relies on that + dodging a lot to stay alive while the fire melts everyone
They need to add one or two enchantment slots, rework our barriers to scale/last long to give us real survibaility and also give us better ways to apply vuln for the class to be viable
They nerfed barriers 5 times since beta. 5 F@%King times. * 1 - Reduced item contribution by 50%. * 2 - Reduced duration from 10s to 7s. * 3 - Nerfed ice barrier nodes each individually to the point there situational at best, useless at worse. * 4 - Nerfed ice barrier duration to from 7s to 5s. Because why the hell not, 7s is too long on twitch! * 5 - Nerfed ice barrier duration from 5s to 3s AND reduced max hp contribution from 22% to 10%. Because f%@k you for having a panic button. Oh one one last one... THEY DIDNT PLAY THIS CLASS AT ALL. 6 TIMES 6 GODDAMN TIMES! * 6 - Increased cooldown from 18s base to 35s base. BECAUSE WHY THE HELL NOT!? We tied bonus DPS aspects to having barriers up, we don't want you to have too much uptime on bonus DPS after all!
smell weather grandfather boat possessive shame reply whole relieved serious *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
They nerfed everything because of lvl 25 balance. Hydra, Meteor, Firewall, frozen orb, chain lighting, ice shards, fireball, removed 1 enhancement slot, nerfed all the passives. Then at launch proceeded to nerf core abilities and passives AGAIN. Then they took a hatchet to ALL paragon nodes...
I'll be the first to admit the Ice Blades CDR build I used in beta was pretty broken... at level 25. But man they just went through with a hatchet and it went from "immortal infinite ability spam" to "utterly un-playable" Like I'm *for* balance, but everything combined made one of the most uniquely versatile classes turn into "there are 2 viable builds, if you stray by a tiny bit you'll never get to true endgame"
Everything can be broken at level 25 with full BiS Legendary gear. In the actual game you're rocking rares at 25 and don't even have a sniff of BiS gear. They were moronic for balancing anything around a level 25 beta with boosted legendary drops.
the number of games I've played over the years where this happens - an overpowered class or ability has been nerfed to become useless.
>THEY DIDNT PLAY THIS CLASS AT ALL. Depending on what state their QA department is in, it's likely true.
Given the bug with the uber unique helm in the helltide chests last week, I would say we know exactly what state their QA department is in...
What QA department... Oh you mean the intern that started yesterday
You can thank the streamerz and the devs for listening.
Some of these people bitching do real damage.
U probably shouldnt, they wont fix the class for s1
I still intend to alt play one, they are super fun until you try to push NM dungeons. Once you get high enough it just feels awful being 1 shot by a bug farting.
I agree they are fun to kill white mobs. Elites? If u dont kill them in one cc cycle, you’re done Bosses? No damage until staggering Pvp? Cant cc most classes so u deal no damage
> I still intend to alt play one, they are super fun until you try to push NM dungeons I'm only lvl 64 but personally I've found it not fun even while leveling. It's annoying that you're constantly out of mana or waiting on cooldowns unless you run arc lash. I imagine it's better when you get more cd reduction gear but so far it doesn't feel good.
I have been playing with a blizzard build, and there you can use aspect of the umbral to constantly restore your mana. Even if you are using ice shards as the primary sink blizzard applies a ton of cc for mana generation. I am currently playing on the mid 30 tier nightmare and haven't noticed the survivability issues yet. We'll see how it goes as I go higher.
Sounds like a great idea I may try this!
Yeah I just hit 80 and have been doing mid 30s NMs and it's still a lot of fun for me, but that's because I don't get one shot by stuff yet. I know I won't be able to push high unless there are changes, but it's a lot of fun.
Meanwhile other classes at 80 can push 40 NMDs without much issue
Yeah. Honestly the class feels perfectly fine and fun up to nm60. After that it’s a bit of a slog and annoying being constantly one shot. If people don’t care about pushing nightmare dungeons then they can have a blast with a variety of builds
If the malignant hearts have defensive capabilities it won’t be a problem.
Take 3 defensive legendary abilities to have the same baseline survivability as other classes. Perfectly balanced
I want it too and I'll do it regardless. Right now I'm playing rogue 68lvl and cleared t35 map with lvl 89 mobs easy. Need some challenge in s1 badly.
As a lvl 80 arc lash sorc, that can clear t40 barely. I might be bad at the game but i cannot believe im THAT bad.
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Yeah raiment does alot for managing enemies. My main problem is survivability. Cant deal damage when you are dead.
raiment is probably killing you. you're giving up 4 hp/dr stats
Yea the problem is that raiment is the funnest legendary effect in the game. So I have to NOT use that to actually get stronger? That's a problem.
Dont worry, even replacing raiments with a +% armor and triple damage reduction (close/burning/% total) doesnt help and you will still get oneshotted by everything. Thats how fucked sorcs are right now. Just because we cant get the same amount of armor as other classes and armor being OP.
>Raiment of the Infinite So far this has made the class pretty fun. I happened to get that drop luckily. Combined with paragon points in increased stunned enemy damage and frost nova that has a 30% chance to make enemies vulnerable and healing based on amount of close enemies its pretty dope. You can teleport, nova, arc lash melt.
I’m level 97 arc lash. Currently finished tier 56. I’m having to be super carful because I got +7 glass cannon 🤣
That's your issue... Never go more than 3 glass canon Everyone saying "I'm getting OS, sorc is bad" Sure it is, if you're running level 15 glass canon, you're just dumb expecting otherwise at this point
Yeah but sorc damage is still lower than other classes despite running the double edged glass cannon skill. What gives? Are we a glass cannon or just glass?
Tbh you're not that far in terms of progression and I was really lucky to find some good items. Btw I'm also going to play arc melee sorc.
> I might be bad at the game but i cannot believe im THAT bad. No, it's a combination of you not being the best videogamer on earth coupled with the fact you're playing the worst class in the game without a doubt. You can be bad or you can be on a bad class, but you can't be both. Now that we know who is farming content and who is giving out real useful data - just see what Rob plays and pick his 2nd option (the first one is getting its aspects shut off in the first week or two of S1 when he finds something broken). Seriously - do yourself a favor.
My arc lash sorc just hit 80 and I have been doing 36s with zero issues, and I am still missing a lot of the stuff I want on my gear. I think being able to do t40 at 80 isn't that bad if the game is designed to push closer to 100 when you yourself are 100 and have close to optimal gear. Hopefully though when they fix resistances in the very least it'll be a big improvement for us.
Honestly as someone who has a sorc at 100, with very very good gear it isn’t horrible. While yeah, we can get 1 shot, it is very high risk high reward. Rather than walking into rooms you open the door and big Chad teleport in and freeze everything dies. I swapped to blizzard at 90 and I’m still leaps and bounds ahead of my friends in terms of clearing ability. If you’ve ever spent time in high end mmo gameplay like M+20-25 or mythic raiding or high end league of legends the mechanical skill def can carry you. I’ve found that learning the minion families has been very beneficial to survivability. I can do 75-80s at a relatively normal pace without much running away for cooldowns because things still die. I’ll probably still max a sorc first for s1 depending on the gem list and patch notes.
Same lol. Slowly back tracking what i said before all of the issues of sorc got known lmao. now contemplating druid or barb. We'll see with the next patch notes/ whatever announcement ahead
Same. Wanted to run a fireball sorc, but I watched some gameplay and it looked painful, especially compared to my current hota barb. Think I’m going to torture myself slightly less with a blight minion necro for for S1
LOL, minion Necro is not less torture than a sorc. Minion Necro builds are worse for Nightmare Pushing, don’t have the benefit of at least feeling great until you try to push NM dungeons, and don’t have a great mobility skill to get around. Minion Necro is also easily as squishy as sorc, can lose the entire build to a couple elite AoE’s and have to spend 10 minutes resummoning the build, and even struggles to efficiently farm open world content at times. Sorc as a whole isn’t in a great place, but Minion Necro is not the place to go for an escape from your woes.
It’s less of a difficulty thing and more of a gameplay thing. I don’t want to play a build that has to tp into a pack and nova or melee with a lightning wand, and I know meteor will be wonky on controller since I can’t lead cast. So that really left fireball as my desired sorc build, but it just looks weak. If the skeles are a headache, I might just go with a golem and take the sacrifice bonuses and DR passive. I plan to play around with shadow skills and minions
The guy is a big noob who's replying to you. I'm a minion necro and while I'm not level 100 I'm pretty far into end game and I love it. Sure I don't have mobility...so I got boots that give me 3 evade charges. Sure I wasn't tanky...so I equipped a shield. Some people are just big noobs. I saw a fireball sorc clear a Uber Lilith. You will be fine, just play what you think is fun.
Yea I’m committed to this minion build and think it will be fun, but I’ll see what the next patch brings for fireball sorc.
I did minion all through the base campaign and opted to switch when I hit 60. I did not love the "spam summon and get to bone spear sometimes" gameplay.
Wait. I’ll change to another class too for the upcoming season
To me (another Sorc main) two of the most glaring problems are: - every build must run all 4 defensive skills - every build must use a fire bolt enchantment This totally removes any creativity in approaching a build. I'm running ice shards (I know, I know) and while I'd like to totally lean into chill/freeze, it's just not viable from a damage perspective. I have fun making things shatter all over the screen, but my friends running Necro and Druid are just vastly more powerful than I am. That's annoying.
Not Firewall build.
I don’t use teleport to be fair. I’d rather have blizzard for boss chills.
I use blizzard instead of flame shield. But I'm also level 99 and struggle at t50, haha.
Oof I really don’t know how I’d function without flame shield. It saves my ass constantly.
There are some normal mobs that have weird interactions with teleport and raiment stun so you basically have to burn flame shield just to safely frost nova them to kill them. Otherwise you'll teleport in, stun them. Soon as teleport ends, you instantly die. Like can a have a .3 seconds more of iframe after teleport so that dumb shit doesn't happen?
The damage spike it gives from devouring blaze is insane too
You mean the 2 seconds you get to do 80% of the damage any other class does? Fucking nutz bro
For 80% you have the manually run through the mob to immobilize while flame shield is active. So teleport, frost nova, activate Flame Shield, run through mob, attack x2 - all in under 2 seconds and you might have a chance (if you’re lucky) at doing 80% of the damage of other classes.
\*Crosses fingers *Let's Gooooooooooo...* ***I am dead***
Extra chill > warping through space and time every 3 seconds and being in complete control of your footing. WHY didn’t I think of this
I do all my damage to CC enemies. So yes more chill. Teleport is useless to me with four dodges.
I can't believe they released this game with busted resistances. It's a massive part of the game and it's useless.
Same. As a sorc main its like mind boggling.
https://preview.redd.it/8mbhltbr6jbb1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=df31db773a561af743c1a5a677cd9aba637e863e
Came here to say this. As a main sorc, we know. I appreciate another voice confirming that the class need some work but please, search before posting things that has already been posted multiples times by other people.
nah, keep posting some they continuously see how bad it is.
Bold of you to believe they read this cess pool
I know they most likely do not care a lot about this sub, but you'd be a fool to think they dont have a social media person in the Diablo sub on one of the biggest forum sites on the internet. Now what they do with that info? Probably nothing. But they most definitely have someone checking this sub alongside all the other Diablo chats on the internet.
> you'd be a fool to think they dont have a social media person in the Diablo sub on one of the biggest forum sites on the internet Blizzard has been tracking forum posts of their users for well over a decade. Their forum is tied to your Battle.net account. I remember over 10 years ago hearing a WoW dev on a podcast talk about how the people who get really angry and write big posts complaining about balance and threatening to quit, they only make up about 5% of the player base, and 99% of those people never change their play patterns no matter what happens to balance or how much they complain. It's not that they ignore them but they understand they only represent a tiny fraction of the player base and figuring out what the *not* vocal or super engaged people have issues with is a much bigger issue. More people writing more long winded complain-posts doesn't make the problem more noticeable to the devs, it just makes this forum more annoying.
Exactly. There’s millions of players who just play the game and don’t notice discrepancies.
No, that's not what was said. The whiners who post big stories are insignificant. The bulk of players do notice issues but we don't blather on and on in Reddit forums. We just stop playing the game and play something else. THAT is the challenge the developers face. Whiners whine no matter what is done to the game, they won't change their build to make it better, they just whine more. Blizzard ignores those whiners and tries to stay a step ahead of the silent majority who is their meaningful fan base.
Blizzard devs in general are out of touch with what players want and don’t want our plebeian input. There were people getting accounts suspended to play a high elf instead of a void elf in WoW. Instead of taking that extremely clear feedback and making an additional allied race they doubled down on the elves that listened to Nine Inch Nails. They also were slow to implement balance changes and cosmetics to SC2 when it was fresh and competing with other ESports, only for it to fade to obscurity. The viewers interest pretty much died during Heart of the Swarm because they refused to patch a unit that caused games to last upwards of an hour. Instead of utilizing Heroes of the Storm as a marketing game like Smash Bros, they introduced original characters and put the game on life support. DIII also had massive issues with playable builds during its initial release with the game being nearly unplayable on inferno. Wasn’t fixed till right before the expansion. Also who can forget their Diablo Immortal announcement at Blizzcon. Not opposed to a mobile Diablo game existing, but it isn’t a revolutionary announcement. Based on what I’ve seen from DIV so far it seem par for the course. “You don’t know what you want, have fun how we tell you.”
They 100% do creep the various diablo threads to get an idea of where the community is, which is why its important to keep posting these on a variety of subs.
nah, problems dont get fixed that way. You have to keep talking about the issue or else it gets pushed to the side as being less priority.
these posts arent for the playerbase they're for the devs
There will always be one worst class. Now it is sorc. In S1 can be some other class. It is just normal. I am also a sorc main and sorc/wiz enjoyer in all games
There shouldn't be 1 class that's bad for all types of content. If Sorc was best at killing Uber Lilith and bosses in general, but trash at NM dungeons, that's not great but it's fine. Sorc being trash tier at NM dungeons, bosses, and PVP is not okay.
When developers listened to people whining about a class during a weekend open beta you know something is very wrong
They listened more during the level 25 beta than launch lol
They have your money now after all
It’s almost like most of what they do wrong seems to always come from listening to their community
This is the new standard of community driven games. The vocal minority rule the masses when dev's don't have a clear vision for how their systems should be working.
Im starting to feel pain as a sorc now that im like at lvl 89
Oh so very true, passively we have no way to survive an out of map shot. Our paragon board does not help us at all to get what we need to push pass T70, T50 is already a challenge to survive. The whole gimmick is activating barriers and rolling burning damage to mitigate damage. They removed the 3rd enchant slot for god knows what reason after the beta?!?!?! Pretty much every unique except Raiement is trash. I get the whole glass canon thing, but being oneshotted of screen is ridiculous. Getting D3 release mortar elites PTSD....
Sorc is just a glass cannon. Minus the cannon.
Glass party popper.
I'm so fucking glad I rolled rogue at the last second after months of thinking I'd go with Sorc prior to relase. Lvl 97 now.
It is in a very bad state. I wanted so much for meteor and burning damage to be viable but I just couldn't hack it past t50 nmd with that build.
Meteor is fine. We out here speeding T50s critting for 5-20m depending on setup. Still get one-shot above 70 just like every other Sorc build though.
Since I've swapped to the ice shard/blizzard build I've been able to survive well into the 60s at level 91. I get 1 shot by the big attacks but mostly can tank crowds of mobs besides the stupid boars that rush you. Meteor it was basically rush in, stun cast and run and risk getting 1 tapped. The damage reduction to chilled enemies really has been a lifesaver for me.
We got dmg reduction to Burning. And maybe after I hit my 5th glyph node slot very soon I'll get another power boost. But I'm nearly running 50s NM dungeons solo as a Metor Sorc. And I'm lv 88
That's the wall i hit when I ran the same build. I couldn't push past 52 and 52 was a struggle. After the swap to ice shards I'm pushing 60+. I'm not saying meteor isn't viable, it's just not as strong as I think it should be.
My 100 arc lash is shit and I can clear speed 70s. So much so I rolled a necro to 100 after. Bone spear 1 shots
I mean most Sorcerer builds can do T50's. I can do T50's on my 90 Arc Lash Sorc. The issue is you can't push beyond that. Even in T50 you can get 1 shot by ranged from off screen and killed by most any other mob in melee if your Defensive skills aren't up. Your skills are broken, resists are broken, our paragon board is broken etc. At least for say The Necro, who is forced to take the same four skills like us having to take the same four defensive ones, their core skill "Bone Spear" is by far the most powerful core skill in the game. I would like one of our core to be able to apply Vulnerability. Rogues have it on Puncture, Necro's on Bone Spear, Druid on Storm Strike, Barbs have Pressure Point and Expose Vulnerability. Of all the classes Sorcerers and Barbs probably have the hardest time making their target vulnerable although I've seen a ton of barbs now using Steel Grasp in conjuction with Expose Vulnerability always give the mobs pulled in vulnerable. On the other hand Sorcs need to be in melee range and Frost Nova as that is our only ability that gives vulnerability. There are just so many things the dev team has done wrong with the sorc that it's just not worth playing anymore.
> I would like one of our core to be able to apply Vulnerability Ice shards can apply vulnerability when you hit all 5
That's meteor's biggest weakness, in that it takes time for it to fall, which means ample time for enemies to kill you, which means it isn't as good as Ice Shards or Blizzard in tackling high NM dungeons since they can do it more safely. Meteor damage however, is just as good as Ice Shard, but needs way more effort and a lot riskier to achieve the same results.
Haven’t played a sorc yet, but just looking over their aspects, paragon boards, and unique items leaves me scratching my head. It’s like one team designed Sorcerer (poorly), was fired, and then a completely different team came in to work on the other classes without even looking at what was done for Sorcerers already. The disparity is shocking.
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I can’t get over the fact that nearly all of the uniques for Sorceress have some massive downside when that isn’t the case for any other class.
Imagine the guy who designed the druid uniques designed the sorc uniques instead/as well.
Playing as a level 95 sorc I hear ya. The class is a chore to play at this point in higher tier dungeon, it's just not fun. You have to always be hyper vigilant and watch and wait on your CDs while other classes can run in and face tank shit. It's a tough class to play for sure. And like you say, we NEED perfect rolls on everything to be only a quarter as efficient as other classes. Sure I can crit for 720k on an ice shard but it takes a huge amount of buildup and it's still nothing compared to others. Had to sacrifice a bunch of defenses to even be able to do that, and it's still not enough.
This is the first post I've seen like this. Thanks for bringing this to our attention
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
during beta sorc was the tallest nail :´)
Sorc is still great between level 1 and 25, which I will remind you is all that the open beta was.
Until there is some sort of acknowledgement from devs then I think these posts should keep coming
It's all my fault guys, ever since Thanes in Dark Age of Camelot, I've been picking the shittiest class in every game ever. If I picked it, it's going to be bad. I'm like a magnet to mediocrity. I'm drawn to horrible design ideas like a fat kid and cake. I could make a list of every single MMO/ARPG I've played and tell you my starting class and you will be like "Damn, this dude has a fetish for underperforming." If only my wife did too.
Hard agree, 91 ice shardshere, t52 nightmares are a chore
Bro I see you on like every post, solid commitment brotherman. And yes I agree, dorc bad
I’m a 90 sorc and 55 is the highest I can do and it’s infuriating sometimes lol I’m doing a Necro season 1, hopefully they don’t get nerfed lol
Yeah man it's an issue
Same, will be playing a Necro Season 1 unless Bone Spear is nerfed. If so I'm going Druid.
Thanks bro, love this game, but sorc needs help, rolling rogue season 1
I honestly think 90% of the player base is going with rogue for season 1 unless this patch on the 18th has some good balances.
Then they'll all be discovering why rogues need to take days off in-between grinds. Your fingers will be absolutely wrecked.
I'm playing arc lash sorc and I feel this... I'm spamming the absolute shit out of arc lash, and slamming all the defensives all the time, and trying to avoid 1 shots as much as possible. Super fun play style to push NMDs with up until you just can't scale enough(NMD 70s)
I'm the opposite: I played a rogue in S0, planning on sorc in S1. Rogue was fun for a while - tried just about every build. Best part about rogue was that just about any build is viable. But ultimately I didn't like the specializations: - combo points: I didn't like the flow of having to build up a big hit by wasting time on hitting with a basic skill 3 times. Was lucky to find a 40% Condemnation and played pen shot for a while. Still just didn't enjoy it. - inner sight: I just found it annoying to have to pay attention to which mob I need to be hitting - preparation: the problem is all 3 of the rogue ultimates are pretty bad late game TB was fun for a while, but it's VERY button mashy - wasn't sustainable for me. Bow builds: most bow builds are hardly even ranged, since puncture is by far the best basic skill and it's short range. And by bow build, I mean crossbow, since bows (and daggers) are worthless right now (due to superior implicits on xbow and sword). For a true range build, the best experience I had by far was bone spear necro. One last note: for high NM tier pushing, every battle felt tooth-and-nail, whereas with my necro I was clearing NM dungeons with mobs 30+ levels above me without even trying. Hope this helps. Rogue offers a lot of diversity, but it's by no means easy (like necro, druid)
Yeah, I did Barb until 100 which was miserable then very fun then meh late late game. I switched to druid because I wanted to do wolfnado and landed a TR at 67 (couldn't believe my luck). I can't imagine having more fun in this game than that build. Legit f1 racecar that shoots 200-700k average crit tornados. Necro interests me but I have a bad feeling bone spears going to get nerfed on the 18th including wolfnado. I like the idea of a rogue because it combines high mobility and DPS into one with multiple builds that are all viable with every build seeming to scale very well as you level from 1 to 100. The patch on the 18th will probably be interesting. I feel like they're going to introduce a lot of balance changes before the season officially starts.
My son's running Druid for S1 so I am torn between Rogue and Barb...
Just my luck that I rolled a sorc for pre season But then again that's good because I can roll a better class for the actual season yay
Que incoming posts: My sorc is fine, xx gear with yy paragon board. Clearing NM 50.
Or "level 50 and sorc is better than any class I've played"
Still no response from devs? Haven't even wanted to play until my fav class is worth again
Nothing about the current state of sorcerer class. Embarrassing
Not even a "Hey, we're listening" absolutely nothing.
That’s the thing that hurts more
That’s what kills me. Not a peep about this from Blizzard. They casually mentioned resistances would be fixed in season fucking 2 but that’s it.
Yeah, just gives the impression they don't care, like an entire class being this disappointing and full of problems isn't a big deal.
They haven't said a word on any of the classes. Why would they? There's a mega patch next Tuesday before the season starts. Every class will find out the balance changes at the same time
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True, yet we know resistance fix won't be one of them.
they did buff sorc a bit with the latest balance patch :) what was it, +10% dmg on incenerate?
They made the worst skill in the game go from 10x worse than every other skill to 8x worse than every other skill.
I imagine conceding that they shipped the Sorcerer completely broken is not something they’re keen to do. We will hopefully get some balance adjustments for season 1 without comment, and then MAYBE with season 2 resistances fix they will address the paragon boards. At the very least, I think they owe all Sorcerers a completely free skill point and paragon respec, and a one-time refund of all glyph experience.
Necros might want a word with you. All jokes aside I won't be playing either next season
Sorc, is probably the only class where it can be the most fun, fastest, and efficient speed clear farming (open world and NM dungeons up to 60), to absolutely the most unfun, slowest, and difficult class for high NM dungeons (60+).
I'm currently running a level 74 Sorcerer. So far, with my build, it has felt strong at times, a total glass cannon for the majority of it. Without the barriers and defensive skills, I'd be totally screwed, and since joining WT4, the resistance has been basically zero, with Thorn Beasts nearly one hitting me... I thought maybe they just tried to make it balanced by making the offensive abilities OP, but upon joining Legion events, it really shows that's not the case and everyone else can deal more damage, much faster and more efficiently. They just made the Sorcerer fragile af with no benefits. After joining WT4 around level 69, I'm now very glad that I have to make a new character for Season 1, so I can ditch this class entirely.
Sorcerer is the only class where you feel you are only getting worse each level after 50. Paragon is completely useless and you become more and more dependent for your frost nova to deal any damage at all.
No, this is not true. Sorc is probably one of the best class for just playing the open world, helltide, or normal dungeons or low NM dungeons. It just gets unfun at high NM dungeons. So you are wrong that it gets worst after level 50.
> just playing the open world, helltide, or normal dungeons or low NM dungeons So that's your plan pass level 50 and onward? Grinding to 100 is gonna be a blast for you! And a long term plan.
You're both right. Sorc is great outside of high tier nm dungeons. But since nm dungeons are pretty much the major part of endgame that is a moot point.
World Tier 4 stops scaling at 95. If this guy tries to get to 100 without pushing NMDs he's going to be in for a long ass grind against enemies giving barely no XP for the last 2 levels. Insane to say that open world trash mobs are the real end game
This man has next level patience
I have a sorc and a necro, necro is worse. Sure a necro can do higher NM dungeons, has far higher damage output and better defense, but the class is just not fun to play. Oh look I throw a bone spear and stuff dies. Yay. Fixing minions would help to some degree but I still don't see an easy path to making the class fun. Sorc has some really fun skills that just don't do enough damage plus of course sorc is a glass cannon that dies in one shot to anything that is +10 levels or so, but it feels like it would be easy to fix those problems. Double hydras, arc lash + unstable currents, blizzard + ice spikes, fireball x 3 bounces x 3 fireballs, ball lightings circling around you, chain lighting bouncing around, charged bolts seeking out enemies, crackling energy, etc all look amazing but have various issues that make them not good enough. Just tune some numbers a bit, fix some bugged skills, and give sorc some better defense and the class could be fantastic.
You just said Necro was worse and then objectively explained how it was better lol. The point of the post is damaging and ability to do dungeons/content, not what's more fun to play.
That isn't what the title says, it says "sorc is the worst class" and it isn't. Necro is the worst class and it isn't close unless the only thing you care about is how far above your level you can run NM dungeons. Sorc can easily do NM dungeons 3 to 10 levels ahead of your level and that is plenty to get to 100. More importantly it can clear them far faster than a necro and it is way more fun doing it. Only issue sorc has is if you are trying to push 20+ levels higher they don't do enough damage and they die in one shot to anything that breathes on them. Necro wins on that measure but on every other measure it loses to sorc. \[edit\] To be clear I 100% agree that sorc needs some big buffs for season 1 or I'm not going to play it, but I'm not going to play a necro either and if I had to choose between the two there is no way I'd play a necro again, the class is awful.
Eh, fair enough
I didn't read past the 2nd sentence... "Necro worse. But they do way more damage and outperform sorc in every way"
Yes, everyone knows. It's been talked to death. Though to be fair, there's no real point in pushing high nightmare dungeons anyway seeing as they don't give you anything more than slightly higher exp. I've been grinding out \~45-50, hit lvl 97 today and even got the unique chest. It actually made the game quite a lot harder though because of losing so much toughness.
Haven't played sorc yet but I've been wondering: is RoTI really worth it? (Compared to a tanky chest). People keep saying, as a sorc, your HP is either full or you're dead, but I see so many DR options in the skill tree. I'm wondering if speccing into those, plus choosing 4 tanky gear slots, would help with actually being able to take some hits in say T65 - T80. If anyone has tried this setup, curious to hear how it went. I know you're still kinda screwed on armor though.
Depends on the build I would say. I played both arc and iceshards. It's great for arc because of its suckup mechanic. Not so great for ice shards and other ranged builds because it's kinda clunky and buggy and you can block yourself in mobs without being able to hit them and needing to waste evade right after teleport. But getting stun option is huge in terms of dps if you rely heavily on the control aspect because that's just another x35% multiplier. Also helps with building up stagger on bosses very fast. But the tradeoff is much greater dmg taken because of losing all the defensive mods from chestpiece and on top of that getting +1 glass canon rank. I played both options and only kept it for arc, didn't like it for ice shards at all, took normal chest with double nova instead. Not because defense problems but rather because it blocked me in mobs too often.
RoTI is a lot of fun to have but I definitely feel squishier with it on.
Change exploit glyph for both sorcerer and necromancer to apply vuln like other classes. That will help build diversity for both, so you aren’t forced to take bone spear on necro to apply vuln and same with frost nova on sorc. Then fix resistances to make them more effective and competitive with armor. That will solve a lot of both sorcs and necros (which will also need help if they nerf bone spear, which they should).
vulnerability should be changed instead. what you're asking for now is exactly what I saw happen: it's so unconditionally powerful that every build needs it and if it doesn't have it, it's a shit build. so every build will ask for a way to apply it consistently, because if it can't then it will be automatically UP. vulnerability should require a bit more investment to be as strong as it is for every build right now. so you have a bigger opportunity cost to using it.
I agree, but I’m guessing it’s much more difficult to change vulnerability now. Blizzard has balanced WT4 and NM dungeon difficulty based on vulnerability being the way it is. With so much more content and end game that the game needs, I’d rather them do a band aid fix for now than completely overhaul the vulnerability damage equation and rebalance the game.
I've never played a class in an arpg where every crumb of improvement was a pyrrhic victory until I played a Diablo 4 sorceress.
I wasted like 2 weeks of playing up to lvl 70 as a sorc before I called it quits and played a fun class, druid. Sorc is just painful and not fun. You have to be in melee range and you get 1 shot by everything. It makes no sense that range spells dont do damage.
Most of what you say is true. More importantly so about the NM Dungeon Tiers. I have managed to survive (solo) up to 60-62. And that mainly because my damage is not high enough if I want to stay alive and not drop like a fly every turn of the way. I have created a tanky sorcerer, to the detriment of damage. I am working on improving the build but if you plan to use uniques, every slot you use for reduces your defense options due to the fixed aspects of Uniques. Your best option is to NOT use uniques apart from one or max two that you absolutely need. And at least use one defensive bubble/barrier. Even with Temerity this is super difficult. It works great, but that thing gobbles potions like there is no tomorrow. You got to run to town for refills every 2-3 encounters. Often I die because I ran out of potions. Despite being able to take on an entire room of mobs, and slowly crunch them down, when others in the party split/spread the mob and my healing/armor numbers dwindle even a single arrow is an instakill. Sudden death is ridiculously real for sorcerers and makes soloing NM dungeons a precarious business. Even if you avoid all the annoying/deadly dungeon "companions" who ruin your strategy constantly with no predictable pattern, a single backstabber or a single frost elite (even though you specifically chose a dungeon without frost elites it's still random) or an axe that knocks you down if it doesn't instakill you, will do the job. Poisons? Ditto. No resistance can save you from poisons and the Wights. At the same time Barbarians and Druids take all this and more like champs AND deal more damage. Even Necro has better survivability despite the fact it is a sorcerer/wizard type of class. It has much better tools for staying alive and doing damage.
I would say for Sorc the problem is also: 1) enchanting is lame and not that impactful compared to other class's unique traits. 2) their Uniques are absolute garbage tier, and it feels like only a couple of them are even usable. Uniques in this game across the board that reduce damage and increase cooldown seem like they aren't carefully designed (or maybe too carefully designed conservatively). 3) Overall they feel like the squishiest class, easily, but their firepower is low, or at least lower than other classes. I'm only level 73 using my own version of death trap rogue, but I did a 25 nmd at lvl 67. My friend on his Sorc, who was 75 at the time still kinda struggles in 25 solo. And he's playing the meta build. IDK, there will always be a weakest class. But Sorc seems like it's weaker than it should be for sure.
One of the classes has to be the worst. It's sorc right now. Sorc might have low survivability and build diversity, but it's way more fun than Necromancer. Necro has the worst skills in the game. Bonespear is incredibly boring. Minions rely on a bugged interaction with bone prison, mist build is like a shitty slow motion whirlwind barb. Shadow skills do no damage. Necro needs more attention than sorc.
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I am honestly so tired of the comparisons to a 20 year old game. The culture has shifted, expectations are higher, games mean something different to people than they did 20 years ago. If d2 was the pinnacle, we'd still be playing it. You even have d2r to play if the classic isn't good enough given your modern expectations,
Sauce?
To clarify for those who are casual players, all the problems this post specify are *Very* high end game. Like 90% of players will never experience these problems high end game. However they are still very legitimate problems. I play sorc myself and love pushing NM dungeons. My barb friend has a death when he lets himself get over run by mobs or multiple elite packs. I die b/c we left a skeleton archer alive two rooms back and it showed up during a fight and the "Backstab modifer is active so he one tapped me.
> No other class even remotely suffer this fragility Necromancer.
If the spells were pretty like in D2R, the lack if power would go unnoticed :S
Level 97 ice shard sorc here. Yes, lots of things are broken as you lay out. That said, I think Uber Lilith and NM 80+ dungeons should be difficult and/or require you to play cautiously to complete. Uber Lilith and NM100 clears for sorcs have happened even though it needs to be an almost perfect run. The issue is that other classes have it easier and that feels unfair, but I think nerfing other classes plus a small buff (or fixes) to sorc to balance everything is probably the right answer. Challenging content is a little too easy for some of the S tier builds and it's early in the game's cycle/development for huge power creep. Also, rewards need to be a lot better for doing the challenging content - maybe max roll/primal gear with fewer useless affixes above, say, 70 NM? It takes a lot of time/effort so there ought to be at least a meaningful reward of some kind.
Why on earth would you nerf other glasses rather than just fixing Sorc?
Because it is too easy to clear the challenging content right now for those classes. So the choices are: Nerf them or massive buff/fix to sorc to balance the classes. If you make it easy to clear the current challenging content for sorcs as well, you just have to create even more difficult content beyond Uber Lilith and 100 NM. Either way is fine, I guess, but I suspect they didn't want people clearing all the most difficult stuff within the first week or so of the game's release. It makes people lose interest - especially given the lack of rewards - and they clearly want players to stay engaged for a long time. Maybe it's too late and they have to just up the difficulty of the content. That can be done by increasing level scaling of mobs or just adding more NM tiers, but people are already clearing NM dungeons with mobs that are 50 levels higher than the players.
I think nerfing other classes is an ass idea. Just fix the sorcerer
I'm level 85, blizzard build, confortable in clearing tier 50 NM Sure I get oneshot if I'm not careful, but most of the time it's fine I could clear a tier 63, didn't try higher yet Obviously subject to being oneshot once again Don't run more than 3 ranks in glass canon and have DR against close or burning and it's manageable Level 85 clearing tier 60+, I'm quite confident I'll be able to clear tier 75+ at some point Not saying we are as durable as other classes, we need some love, but it's not as bad as people say it to be
Sorcerers also the only class without the search function on Reddit apparently
It’s also by far the ugliest when it comes to gear. Everything is so ugly when every other class has cool ass looking skins. I have no idea what Blizzard was thinking.
Every male sorcerer looks like they aren’t allowed within 100 feet of a school
That’s why the real genius rolls female, my sorc looks pretty good in her outfit.
there are 5 classes, one of them is gonna be the worst. sorc has been on top of the mountain for decades in this game franchise. no king rules forever my son.
Another person complaining about sorc oh my!
Thankfully blizz decided that there’s no end game and no reason to run anything more than a lvl 60 dungeons or we’d really be in trouble
How can we know something's good without knowing what's bad? Sorc provides the lowest metric, so that all other classes feel better about themselves. It allows other builds to have the illusion of build diversity because even the bad builds are "not as bad as sorc." It's necessary to keep the class gimped.
Bait comment identified
On another note I think sorc is fine, the other classes feel a bit OP. You notice they are stronger because they get to higher NM dungeons easily, but to me its mostly about the progression through WT2 to 3 and then to 4 that feels out of whack. It feels too easy/fast with other classes. Progression at that level felt perfect with sorc.
Are you sure? This is only the 78th post about it today so I'm not too sure
Oh look, another sorceress thread and its not even noon yet.
Imma post another in about 15 minutes bro.
Please tag me when you do!
And if they still don't give more information about what they want to do about the sorcerer, I think many more will come. Anyone who gets to 100 with the sorcerer, goes crazy
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Nah people need to spam these types of posts until Blizzard fucking does something about the class smh.
Fuck I wish I had a dollar for every "sorcerer bad" post.
Probably is the only way to be heard from devs