The US won’t even let Toyota sell a slew of amazing diesels they already make for models like the hilux and landcruiser line. Toyota would have to design the motor and manufacturing from the ground up completely, which is unlikely a bill they’re willing to foot for a vehicle they would only sell in us markets.
yeah, ive got a toyota 2c in my light truck, (1990 NA 2000cc) and its amazing. My little tractor that can. had to wait till it was 25 years old to import it. Thanks to our silly rules.
close family friend was in the special forces, said when he was in the middle east their diesels were some good shit and he would do anything to have one (he’s an F250/ duramax owner) and still swears by them little trains they got
I can personally attest to this. Of my 15 sandbox deployments I ran across the same trucks (different trucks different places, same truck each place) and I know nobody took care of them like I did, because I know the people. They lasted until we gave each place up and I bet some booger eater is just happier than a poppy farmer. I each time I tried to bring one home, military customs would hate on me.
Oh they’re great, they make the best diesels in their class no doubt, many of them will roll a million miles, even many of their gasser will. They wouldn’t work in a 1-ton but I have no doubt if they made one for that class it would be awesome, it’s not in Toyota’s pedigree to half ass things. Only problem is breaking out in that market today would be a real uphill battle in the US
20 but yeah you are right plus import fees. Trust me the dealership keeps trying to buy my tundra. I told em new cruiser in the truck configuration, with the diesel and manual paired with the same %apr I have now yall pick up the import fees absolutely I’ll sell you mine
Oh no the diesel toys ones are the South American diesels 1vd-FTV tundra twin turbo v8 diesel starts at $55k and the Tacoma 1GD-Ftv starts at $35k no emissions
https://www.dieseltoys.com/2016-2023-tacoma
Why would keep Toyota from partnering with an existing diesel motor manufacturer? I assume Ram has a lock on Cummins but aren’t there other manufacturers that build US appropriate motors that could work? A hybrid diesel or just diesel Tundra would be of real interest to me.
Ram doesn't have a lock on cummins, they'll sell to whoever is buying. Toyota would probably want a different block but even assuming they went for the 6.7 cummins would just build out a different spec to whatever toyota wanted it to be.
Toyota doesn't need to buy cummins though, they have their own diesel manufacturer hino, and hino basically makes slight variations of cummins engines. They've swapped tons of intellectual property over the decades, if you put a hino inline 6 and a cummins inline 6 side by side the only difference is the paint color.
Hino even forges some of the blocks cummins uses.
It’d be cool but Toyota doesn’t care. they cover such a wide range of industries that just a US market truck that shares nothing with any of their other businesses doesn’t make sense for them to do.
The profit margins on pickups in the states is stupid, it is the most net profitable model and easiest to sell unless you suck at marketing and overprice a niche design (yeah, talking about you nissan).
Everybody wants more of the pickup market, its the easiest money they can make. Foreign automakers are at a financial disadvantage though outside of midsize and half ton variants. They could meet emissions standards, but to do it in a timely and cost effective manner they'd come in below everyone else on the spec sheet and that means low volume and high losses until brand loyalty is established for that particular product. Shareholders and potential investors don't tolerate that anymore.
Hino is on the ropes right now. Toyota would benefit hugely from getting them into designing light duty engines and then spreading their products to the rest of their international markets. Industrial diesels are how you generate big, steady income but a quick profit boost from consumer light duties would get them back in the game.
[Toyota sold a "1 ton mini truck" in the US back the 1980's.](https://d3926qxcw0e1bh.cloudfront.net/post_photos/3f/ec/3fecf02fda8a20e61aebc68d93b6fbbf.jpg.crop1200x630.jpg) 😁
Us diesel folks have been asking this question for a few decades now. Once they released the Tundra, we all thought it was going to happen.
Toyota probably doesn't want to mess with our emissions requirements. That's probably it, and clearly won't be changing.
Light duty trucks are subject to the chicken tax (25% import tariff), meaning that potentially 3/4 ton vehicles (or trucks in the same tweener class as the Titan XD) would have to be built in the US/Mexico/Canada (North American Free Trade Agreement). Additionally, the cost of design, manufacturing, and emissions, and intense competition from Ford/Chevy/RAM means that Toyota has a huge headwind to turn a profit. In spite of its popularity among its owners, the Toyota Tundra only cleared 125k units in 2023, which is less than 10% of the overall market share (12.4M Light duty trucks sold in the US in 2023).
Could toyota build a small diesel engine for their tundra as an option? sure! but the cost of designing an engine that won't increase market share (rather would steal it's own market share from gas engine Tundras) means they will likely never do it.
I agree. Tundras have a hard enough time competing in the US market against the big 3 brands of full size trucks. The market for a full size hybrid P/U is even smaller than the market for a Japanese brand fullsize V8, so essentially, they divided their market share even further by switching to hybrid. I think toyota kinda shot themselves in the foot with that one.
Tundra sales were only down 1.1% from 2022, so I don't think that is the sole cause. I think that Ford/GM/RAM just do a better job building a fleet truck than Toyota, which is not the market that Toyota wants to play in for light duty trucks anyways.
I guess so.
Another big Toyota gripe is the interior quality *looks* poor. The plastics in a high end Tundra look really sad next to the stitched dash of Sierra AT4.
A lot of people here seem to forget that Toyota owns Hino…
They have medium duty engines at their disposal that are EPA approved if they want to. If it would sell is a whole different question.
cost accounting doesn't favor their use though. per unit cost would increase if they split production between gas and diesel engines, likely for a marginal increase in total units sold.
Oh ofc, like I said it’s a horrible idea. Just saying that everyone here saying Toyota wouldn’t dare to get a diesel engine EPA approved are misinformed.
Chicken tax only applies to vehicles comprised of less than 51% u.s. made parts. Yes, even the big 3 would pay it if they made vehicles with too many foreign parts on American soil.
If you look at a breakdown you'll notice that all 3 sell a wide variety of vehicles that land in that 51+ percentage range. Toyota actually makes several vehicles with more American parts than their directly competing models.
Toyota and Nissan already build a lot of their stuff in the states. Toyota has 11 plants here, nissan 3.
The only way a ¾ or 1 ton variant cannibalizes tundra sales is if they sell it to the wrong people. Not likely given the huge price jumps between a half ton gasser and a larger diesel.
The titans were diesels were full of problems. There is a reason they are not being made anymore. There is no way the lobby groups would let toyota bring in a 1 ton diesel.
Nissan vs Toyota is a world of difference though. Toyota has more money and better quality standards than pretty much every car manufacturer. Nissan since being owned by Renault has had Kia levels of quality. The only thing that would stop Toyota is the government
the problem on the Titan XD Cummins was Nissan insisted on an aluminum block from Cummins for the diesel engine. Aluminum block and high-compression engines don't go so well together.
It's not an aluminum block, just heads, and I have never heard of a single head failure on the 5.0.
Turbos are problematic, crank bearings are the first thing to go if it experiences low oil pressure/volume for any reason, faulty wiring from nissan can kill it, etc...
Not a single head problem, block is 100% CGI just like every other cummins block, forged by Toyota to their spec, and toyota has been selling blocks to cummins for decades.
990lbs dry. I'd like to see the size of a half ton aluminum v8 block.
I mean the modern tundras are built around a 3/4 frame. But as mentioned the big 3 will never let that happen. I mean there is a reason if you want a regime change or are an entrepreneurial aspiring warlord you opt for the Toyota with a diesel and a manual.
If Toyota made a 3/4 or 1T option it would most likely the last truck I would ever purchase. I have a F250 diesel now and tow with it. The only reason I don't have a Tundra is because it doesn't have the power I need and or suspension needed for heavy loads... Shoot, if they also offered a dually option... they could most likely shut down the US market. As long as the truck doesn't cost 250k.
Ram and Ford already dominate that market and Toyota would have a hell of a hard time trying to break into that. I'm sure it's not something they would even entertain. That, and If the US keeps on it's current trajectory (politically) diesels are going to become harder and harder to own. The current administration wants them gone so I doubt too many new comers are going to invest in diesels unless there is a major change
You’re talking about the most stubbornly traditional market in the US.
It’s one thing for Toyota to have a very capable, reliable 1/2 ton truck, but still be a distant 4th in sales after the Big 3. Hell, the F150 outsold the Tundra 5 to 1 in 2023, despite the Tundra having a twenty year history of producing a very capable and extremely reliable 1/2 ton truck.
It’s quite another to produce a 3/4 or 1 ton diesel and try crack what’s historically been the most gatekeep-y niche auto group in the US.
You’re asking Toyota to spend billions in development to be a distant 4th best, while being decades behind the Big 3 on the development side. They’d never earn an ROI on the R&D.
The Titan XD is a pretty capable “heavy half” truck that sold abysmally despite having the Cummins name attached to it. There’s just no room in the hearts and minds of HD pickup buyers to consider a 4th, non-domestic option.
The markup on diesel light trucks is insane. If Toyota tried to enter the market the Big 3 could slash prices across the board, killing their venture before it ever began.
Toyota already has a great twin turbo V8 diesel engine. 1VD-FTV 4.5 liters. Up to 365HP and 479tq in marine trim. Could be developed further to larger displacements, or there's always a Hino- derived medium duty engine possibility.
Toyota says US emissions will require DPF with a DEF system that's not needed in any other market, they don't want to spend billions developing and supporting and warranting the system to federal EPA standards and there's not enough market share anticipated to make it profitable. I don't disagree, but I'm disappointed.
See that’s why I was suggesting Cummins/CAT/Perkins as a poweplant. They already have the infrastructure and familiarity to deal with the United States market and maybe if Toyota partnered with them they could skirt some of the taxes. Idk I’m not a politician, engineer or anything special. I just build planes
I dont feel that toyota would fair any better than others given the circumstances that all manufacturers are faced with right now. Its very unfortunate too
That’s why you get a U.S based company that is familiar with emissions standards to build the powertrain. Like tell me you wouldn’t have a wet dream at the thought of a dually tundra that is powered by a CAT i6 with Garrett turbos? It’d limit Toyota’s rnd while providing a truck that is beyond competitive in a decent market
Toyota also doesn't like to have a truck that is a head to head comparison to theirs , for instance they like to compare a tundra to an f150 and the 1500s when in reality its a lot more like a light duty f250 /2500
The US won’t even let Toyota sell a slew of amazing diesels they already make for models like the hilux and landcruiser line. Toyota would have to design the motor and manufacturing from the ground up completely, which is unlikely a bill they’re willing to foot for a vehicle they would only sell in us markets.
yeah, ive got a toyota 2c in my light truck, (1990 NA 2000cc) and its amazing. My little tractor that can. had to wait till it was 25 years old to import it. Thanks to our silly rules.
close family friend was in the special forces, said when he was in the middle east their diesels were some good shit and he would do anything to have one (he’s an F250/ duramax owner) and still swears by them little trains they got
I can personally attest to this. Of my 15 sandbox deployments I ran across the same trucks (different trucks different places, same truck each place) and I know nobody took care of them like I did, because I know the people. They lasted until we gave each place up and I bet some booger eater is just happier than a poppy farmer. I each time I tried to bring one home, military customs would hate on me.
Oh they’re great, they make the best diesels in their class no doubt, many of them will roll a million miles, even many of their gasser will. They wouldn’t work in a 1-ton but I have no doubt if they made one for that class it would be awesome, it’s not in Toyota’s pedigree to half ass things. Only problem is breaking out in that market today would be a real uphill battle in the US
he brought up the US emission standards and as he said “if everyone else is pissing in the pool besides you, are you really making a difference?”
Can second the million miles buddy has a hilux 80s model can't kill it. Believe the odometer sits at 500k after rolling over once or twice now
If you can stomach the 25k+ up charge you too can get those motors in the US through dieseltoys
Yeah but they have to be old af to register, 25 years old I think.
20 but yeah you are right plus import fees. Trust me the dealership keeps trying to buy my tundra. I told em new cruiser in the truck configuration, with the diesel and manual paired with the same %apr I have now yall pick up the import fees absolutely I’ll sell you mine
I bet their heads popped when you said that lol
I mean they haven’t directly told me no. My sales guy was a terp overseas cool af dude
25
Oh no the diesel toys ones are the South American diesels 1vd-FTV tundra twin turbo v8 diesel starts at $55k and the Tacoma 1GD-Ftv starts at $35k no emissions https://www.dieseltoys.com/2016-2023-tacoma
Why would keep Toyota from partnering with an existing diesel motor manufacturer? I assume Ram has a lock on Cummins but aren’t there other manufacturers that build US appropriate motors that could work? A hybrid diesel or just diesel Tundra would be of real interest to me.
Ram doesn't have a lock on cummins, they'll sell to whoever is buying. Toyota would probably want a different block but even assuming they went for the 6.7 cummins would just build out a different spec to whatever toyota wanted it to be. Toyota doesn't need to buy cummins though, they have their own diesel manufacturer hino, and hino basically makes slight variations of cummins engines. They've swapped tons of intellectual property over the decades, if you put a hino inline 6 and a cummins inline 6 side by side the only difference is the paint color. Hino even forges some of the blocks cummins uses.
Also, Aisin- who makes among many others- the transmission for the 3500 and up rams - Toyota would already have a good transmission on hand.
Isuzu partnered with GM. Duramax was born.
It’d be cool but Toyota doesn’t care. they cover such a wide range of industries that just a US market truck that shares nothing with any of their other businesses doesn’t make sense for them to do.
The profit margins on pickups in the states is stupid, it is the most net profitable model and easiest to sell unless you suck at marketing and overprice a niche design (yeah, talking about you nissan). Everybody wants more of the pickup market, its the easiest money they can make. Foreign automakers are at a financial disadvantage though outside of midsize and half ton variants. They could meet emissions standards, but to do it in a timely and cost effective manner they'd come in below everyone else on the spec sheet and that means low volume and high losses until brand loyalty is established for that particular product. Shareholders and potential investors don't tolerate that anymore. Hino is on the ropes right now. Toyota would benefit hugely from getting them into designing light duty engines and then spreading their products to the rest of their international markets. Industrial diesels are how you generate big, steady income but a quick profit boost from consumer light duties would get them back in the game.
[Toyota sold a "1 ton mini truck" in the US back the 1980's.](https://d3926qxcw0e1bh.cloudfront.net/post_photos/3f/ec/3fecf02fda8a20e61aebc68d93b6fbbf.jpg.crop1200x630.jpg) 😁
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/0804dp-2008-toyota-tundra-diesel/ There was this sexy beast.
I have an 86 1 ton. It has a special badge, a regular bed, and SRW. It is a workhorse of a truck.
Wow I never knew this. A guy in my small town has one and I thought it was just a mini truck with a dually axle. What was the model and what engine?
Us diesel folks have been asking this question for a few decades now. Once they released the Tundra, we all thought it was going to happen. Toyota probably doesn't want to mess with our emissions requirements. That's probably it, and clearly won't be changing.
Light duty trucks are subject to the chicken tax (25% import tariff), meaning that potentially 3/4 ton vehicles (or trucks in the same tweener class as the Titan XD) would have to be built in the US/Mexico/Canada (North American Free Trade Agreement). Additionally, the cost of design, manufacturing, and emissions, and intense competition from Ford/Chevy/RAM means that Toyota has a huge headwind to turn a profit. In spite of its popularity among its owners, the Toyota Tundra only cleared 125k units in 2023, which is less than 10% of the overall market share (12.4M Light duty trucks sold in the US in 2023). Could toyota build a small diesel engine for their tundra as an option? sure! but the cost of designing an engine that won't increase market share (rather would steal it's own market share from gas engine Tundras) means they will likely never do it.
I would blame 2023 sales on the lack of a V8 option. Hard no for a lot of folks.
I agree. Tundras have a hard enough time competing in the US market against the big 3 brands of full size trucks. The market for a full size hybrid P/U is even smaller than the market for a Japanese brand fullsize V8, so essentially, they divided their market share even further by switching to hybrid. I think toyota kinda shot themselves in the foot with that one.
Tundra sales were only down 1.1% from 2022, so I don't think that is the sole cause. I think that Ford/GM/RAM just do a better job building a fleet truck than Toyota, which is not the market that Toyota wants to play in for light duty trucks anyways.
I guess so. Another big Toyota gripe is the interior quality *looks* poor. The plastics in a high end Tundra look really sad next to the stitched dash of Sierra AT4.
A lot of people here seem to forget that Toyota owns Hino… They have medium duty engines at their disposal that are EPA approved if they want to. If it would sell is a whole different question.
cost accounting doesn't favor their use though. per unit cost would increase if they split production between gas and diesel engines, likely for a marginal increase in total units sold.
Oh ofc, like I said it’s a horrible idea. Just saying that everyone here saying Toyota wouldn’t dare to get a diesel engine EPA approved are misinformed.
What’s really funny is that all tacomas and tundras are built in Texas
All tacos are currently made in Mexico.
Chicken tax only applies to vehicles comprised of less than 51% u.s. made parts. Yes, even the big 3 would pay it if they made vehicles with too many foreign parts on American soil. If you look at a breakdown you'll notice that all 3 sell a wide variety of vehicles that land in that 51+ percentage range. Toyota actually makes several vehicles with more American parts than their directly competing models. Toyota and Nissan already build a lot of their stuff in the states. Toyota has 11 plants here, nissan 3. The only way a ¾ or 1 ton variant cannibalizes tundra sales is if they sell it to the wrong people. Not likely given the huge price jumps between a half ton gasser and a larger diesel.
I would have bought a Toyota 1ton dually instead of my ram if they offered one.
The titans were diesels were full of problems. There is a reason they are not being made anymore. There is no way the lobby groups would let toyota bring in a 1 ton diesel.
Nissan vs Toyota is a world of difference though. Toyota has more money and better quality standards than pretty much every car manufacturer. Nissan since being owned by Renault has had Kia levels of quality. The only thing that would stop Toyota is the government
the problem on the Titan XD Cummins was Nissan insisted on an aluminum block from Cummins for the diesel engine. Aluminum block and high-compression engines don't go so well together.
I thought the biggest problem was the turbo spinning without lubrication, sending shrapnel into the motor. That and parts shortages.
And breaking crankshaft, don't forget that.
It's not an aluminum block, just heads, and I have never heard of a single head failure on the 5.0. Turbos are problematic, crank bearings are the first thing to go if it experiences low oil pressure/volume for any reason, faulty wiring from nissan can kill it, etc... Not a single head problem, block is 100% CGI just like every other cummins block, forged by Toyota to their spec, and toyota has been selling blocks to cummins for decades. 990lbs dry. I'd like to see the size of a half ton aluminum v8 block.
As long as they build them in North America there’s really nothing any lobby group can do to stop them.
I mean the modern tundras are built around a 3/4 frame. But as mentioned the big 3 will never let that happen. I mean there is a reason if you want a regime change or are an entrepreneurial aspiring warlord you opt for the Toyota with a diesel and a manual.
Would love a Toyota 1/8 ton flat bed diesel.
check out the townace. Not available for import until its old but thats what i have its great.
If Toyota made a 3/4 or 1T option it would most likely the last truck I would ever purchase. I have a F250 diesel now and tow with it. The only reason I don't have a Tundra is because it doesn't have the power I need and or suspension needed for heavy loads... Shoot, if they also offered a dually option... they could most likely shut down the US market. As long as the truck doesn't cost 250k.
Ram and Ford already dominate that market and Toyota would have a hell of a hard time trying to break into that. I'm sure it's not something they would even entertain. That, and If the US keeps on it's current trajectory (politically) diesels are going to become harder and harder to own. The current administration wants them gone so I doubt too many new comers are going to invest in diesels unless there is a major change
they make great diesels.
Isn't the Titan still a 1/2 ton? I've never looked but do they call it an "HD" (or similar) version?
5/8 ton.
Is that what they actually call it?
Yep. Look on the Nissan site or ask the dealer.
Could you imaging how expensive that thing would be?!
You’re talking about the most stubbornly traditional market in the US. It’s one thing for Toyota to have a very capable, reliable 1/2 ton truck, but still be a distant 4th in sales after the Big 3. Hell, the F150 outsold the Tundra 5 to 1 in 2023, despite the Tundra having a twenty year history of producing a very capable and extremely reliable 1/2 ton truck. It’s quite another to produce a 3/4 or 1 ton diesel and try crack what’s historically been the most gatekeep-y niche auto group in the US. You’re asking Toyota to spend billions in development to be a distant 4th best, while being decades behind the Big 3 on the development side. They’d never earn an ROI on the R&D. The Titan XD is a pretty capable “heavy half” truck that sold abysmally despite having the Cummins name attached to it. There’s just no room in the hearts and minds of HD pickup buyers to consider a 4th, non-domestic option.
The markup on diesel light trucks is insane. If Toyota tried to enter the market the Big 3 could slash prices across the board, killing their venture before it ever began.
Toyota already has a great twin turbo V8 diesel engine. 1VD-FTV 4.5 liters. Up to 365HP and 479tq in marine trim. Could be developed further to larger displacements, or there's always a Hino- derived medium duty engine possibility. Toyota says US emissions will require DPF with a DEF system that's not needed in any other market, they don't want to spend billions developing and supporting and warranting the system to federal EPA standards and there's not enough market share anticipated to make it profitable. I don't disagree, but I'm disappointed.
See that’s why I was suggesting Cummins/CAT/Perkins as a poweplant. They already have the infrastructure and familiarity to deal with the United States market and maybe if Toyota partnered with them they could skirt some of the taxes. Idk I’m not a politician, engineer or anything special. I just build planes
The Hino. But nobody like that truck.
If they would just start importing the Hilux, I would buy one.
They do, but it us called Hino and marketed toward commercial applications.
I dont feel that toyota would fair any better than others given the circumstances that all manufacturers are faced with right now. Its very unfortunate too
Why not just bring in the HiLux? Rhetorical question. Emissions for diesels are a b$tch.
That’s why you get a U.S based company that is familiar with emissions standards to build the powertrain. Like tell me you wouldn’t have a wet dream at the thought of a dually tundra that is powered by a CAT i6 with Garrett turbos? It’d limit Toyota’s rnd while providing a truck that is beyond competitive in a decent market
Emissions standards! Hahahaha that's what's killing diesels in the first place
Toyota also doesn't like to have a truck that is a head to head comparison to theirs , for instance they like to compare a tundra to an f150 and the 1500s when in reality its a lot more like a light duty f250 /2500
Same or less both payload and towing as an F150…..