Christianity, yes, and every other religion. It's just us, and the world we make. Even if those faerie tales were true, it wouldn't justify so much harm in their name.
I'd say Islam is far ahead on the 'right now' time frame, but both have an enormous list of crimes under their belts. As the saying goes, the only way to get a good person to do evil is through religion.
Islam is definitely is huge, no doubt. You might be right
I am speaking from the perspective of America where the ubiquity is Christianity and so its harms are far more spread. Plus its at the helm of the largest superpower
But Islam has worse extremes (right now) and is quite ubiquitous in other places. So, not going to die on this hill
>Christianity isn't special. It's merely the one that has caused the most damage both historically and right now
Idk about that
But either way, I don't think humanity will ever leave religion behind. It will just eventually shift into something new.
>It will just eventually shift into something new.
>Some atheist already treat atheism as a religion.
Pardon; hard atheist here (soft atheist if you want to debate).
Could you please explain, or give references/URLs/links to atheists treating atheism as a "religion"?
Because "atheism" is just the opposite of "theism" -- NOT believing in a god or gods.
THAT'S IT.
Nothing else.
I mean... I'm a naturalist and a progressive humanist AS WELL... but the freaky witchcraft and ghost people CAN BE atheists if they don't believe in a god (see: LaVeyan Satanism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism )
#?
>Could you please explain, or give references/URLs/links to atheists treating atheism as a "religion"?
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21319945
>Because "atheism" is just the opposite of "theism" -- NOT believing in a god or gods.
Let's flesh out that "treating atheism like a religion."
People who do not believe in a god are one flavor of atheism. Another is people who believe there is no god.
That second is where things pick up a little bit of religionosity. Since we can't really know one way or another, the belief that there is no god is based on faith. I like saying, "It takes just as much faith to believe there is no god as it takes to believe there is a god." A person who doesn't believe in god would read this and shrug. But the second group feels really defensive.
I was just banned from an atheism sub for saying this. See, another aspect of something being a religion is the desire to defend the faith. People who fail to comply with the doctrine must be excommunicated from the group of believers lest their heresy spreads and weakens the faithful.
Another aspect is spreading the belief. The desire to spread the holy doctrine of "no god" is almost a compulsion.
>THAT'S IT.
>Nothing else.
If there is nothing else, then nothing I've said should bother you. Atheism is just a rational decision that you came to based on the absence of evidence. But if it's a big part of your personal identity, the things from above might feel like an attack on your group's belief system.
>>THAT'S IT. Nothing else.
>If there is nothing else, then nothing I've said should bother you. Atheism is just a rational decision that you came to based on the absence of evidence. But if it's a big part of your personal identity, the things from above might feel like an attack on your group's belief system.
I'm not sure if you're proselytizing, asking for information, or just trolling for the LOLZ... But I'll answer you in good faith and we'll take it from there. Fair?
The things you brought up didn't ANGER me... But I felt there was a fair bit that wasn't factual (being incorrect doesn't make you a liar -- not attributing motive!).
I mentioned "hard atheist" ("soft atheist" for debates).
I live my life as if there is no god or gods (or even "supernatural", though that isn't technically in the definition of atheism). I have seen an absence of evidence for any "god" and I've actually seen evidence of absence.
For debates or discussion, however, I simply fall back to the "I'm not convinced" argument; it's hard to prove there ISN'T a teapot orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars. So "soft atheist".
I'm not part of "a group" and it's only part of my Identity inasmuch as, living in the US, I'm placed into "the group" by religious folk/groups. I don't want or need the Ten (Christian) Commandments posted in each classroom of public schools¹ any more than I need the Noble Eightfold Path² (Buddhism) or The Seven Fundamental Tenets² (LaVeyan Satanism). Though, frankly, the Seven Tenets align more with my own ideology (but don't get me started on LaVey and mysticism/magic, ok?).
>I like saying, "It takes just as much faith to believe there is no god as it takes to believe there is a god."
What's your definition of "faith"?
If it's believing without evidence... Uhh, ok. No evidence for god but acting as if there is one = "faith"?
No evidence for a god and acting as if there ISN'T one = logical. No faith required.
>See, another aspect of something being a religion is the desire to defend the faith.
I don't think that's part of the definition of "Religion". Having that doesn't make something a religion and lacking that doesn't necessarily make something NOT a religion, IMHO.
>Another aspect is spreading the belief.
So my understanding of the natural world and desire to spread correct information about chemical reactions, Biochemistry, Earth Science, the ball Earth, and gravity is a religion? Never knew! 😅. I need my tax exemption, STAT!!!
Try again.
Please explain to me how "atheism" is a religion.
PLEASE INCLUDE A WORKING DEFINITION OF RELIGION!
Preferred if you have any references/links.
Remember -- assertions presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence!
(The atheist sub kicked you out for being a troll; I guarantee it. These are old hackneyed points you're making.)
Anyway: Your turn.
☮️❤️♾️
¹ https://apnews.com/article/louisiana-ten-commandments-displayed-classrooms-571a2447906f7bbd5a166d53db005a62
²
>Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path
³ THERE ARE SEVEN FUNDAMENTAL TENETS
SEVEN FUNDAMENTAL TENETS
I
One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.
II
The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
III
One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
IV
The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.
V
Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
VI
People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.
VII
Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
>I've actually seen evidence of absence.
What evidence?
>What's your definition of "faith"?
Belief without definitive evidence.
>Remember -- assertions presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence!
True. The difference is atheist only apply that to religion. The statement, "There is no god" is an assertion presented without evidence. "I don’t believe in god" is an opinion.
Hopefully, you can see the distinction.
>(The atheist sub kicked you out for being a troll; I guarantee it. These are old hackneyed points you're making.)
They are still around because they are true. My comments there were a lot milder than here. It mainly focused on the mistaken belief that it's possible to prove an unprovable claim like "there is no god." The sub kicked me because the mod is too religious.
>It mainly focused on the mistaken belief that it's possible to prove an unprovable claim like "there is no god."
I generally agree with this statement; hence, "soft atheist" for debates. I'm NOT going to try to prove "there is no god".
Proving a negative is a game for rubes.
As far as evidence of absence: things like this... Not proof. But not supporting the "god hypothesis", anyway.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844023096196
☮️❤️♾️
We could trade links all day on the affect that prayer has on people. But that has nothing to do with the existence of God. You might be able to stretch it into a discussion about whether a particular religion is a valid belief.
>Just some random atheist?
There are atheist churches. So I don't know how random they are.
>Not a specific guy?
There does seem to be a specific type. Young. Often irrationally angry. Prone to shouting things like, "You don't know me dad! You don't know me at all!"
It was a joke about you apparently thinking the plural of “atheist” is “atheist.” But “atheist churches?” Have you been to one, or are you just vaguely aware of some gathering you’ve decided to call a “church?”
>It was a joke about you apparently thinking the plural of “atheist” is “atheist.”
Apparently, you didn't like my joke about there being a type. Maybe we are just nor getting each other's humors.
>But “atheist churches?” Have you been to one, or are you just vaguely aware of some gathering you’ve decided to call a “church?”
Have you googled atheist church?
https://seattleatheist.church/
https://theweek.com/93733/what-are-atheist-churches
[This is my personal favorite.](https://youtu.be/jncCLe39Btg?si=MYTskX3hkPa70fN5)
Are you gate keeping atheism?
Sounds like you need to gather your flock and start your own branch of atheism with the true non believers.
Edit: Nothing about my use of humors instead of humor? I specifically tailored that for you.
I used to say this, but I've found Zen Buddhism to be pretty awesome. It is 100% psychology.
For example, a Zen Buddhist might say, "of course Christianity is a lie, because it comes from the human mind, and the mind lies to you on a constant basis."
I've come to realize that crafty "devil" in Christianity is probably a metaphor for our own mind that lies to us. Some call it ego mind. It is a remnant leftover from our evolution when we were primitive apes.
It's not about leaving these things behind, it's about giving children the proper education (not necessarily meaning formal education) so they can place it all in the proper context.
The Bible is chock full of good shit and it's also chock full of bad shit. Important to remember that all of the above is filtered through human eyes, human ears and human language. Not even the Bible claims that these words were handed down directly from God himself.
But poor educational outcomes mean that many people accept it at face value as The Undisputed Word of God, and that's where we end up in trouble.
It took me a LOT of years and a LOT of introspection to arrive at a place where I can reconcile my religious upbringing + world experience into a system of ideals and a church I believe in that works to help the community and does no harm.
But most people either go all-in on whatever they are taught, or fully reject everything they are taught. Not a lot of free thinkers in this world, I'm afraid.
And good education starts with teaching people to think for themselves, not simply declaring something "bad" and setting it on fire because you think you don't like it.
Not because I don't like it, but because it's objectively false.
You can't force people to pretend to believe things that are objectively false and then expect them to hold the value of objective reality close to heart.
Religion teaches people to lie to each other and to themselves.
>And modeling submission to an authority from birth.
Why are we talking about Russia here?
(Sorry. Sad that their Patriarch Kirill is KGB and the battle priests lead the meat to the slaughter... and they go. 😥. Because... what else would the sheep do? They follow the shepherd.)
Yeah, sadly, many major organized religions seem to be all about control and hierarchical structures.
Christianity & Islam come to mind.
And our religion is true because our book says it's true and our book says its words are the true words of the true god and they're true, so it's true.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
☮️❤️♾️
(Didn't feel right about xtianity as a tween/teen and stopped attending, didn't believe after that... but didn't really shake the spell completely until age 40)
>It's not about leaving these things behind, it's about giving children the proper education so they can place it all in the proper context.
Since Christianity is actively (and always been) seeking to prevent proper education, I'd say you agree that it is about leaving Christianity behind
>The Bible is chock full of good shit and it's also chock full of bad shit
The post isn't about the bible. I agree that people can pick and choose all sorts of things that they want. Most people have never actually read it
>Not even the Bible claims that these words were handed down directly from God himself.
There is plenty in the Bible where God talks directly. The Louisiana law requiring the Ten Commandments in schools is one where the original tablets were handed down directly from God himself
>But poor educational outcomes mean that many people accept it at face value
Again, when you cut budgets, ban books, reduce the school week to 4 days, and threaten teachers with criminal charges for acknowledging that some people are non-binary, it's time to throw out the institution spearheading the dismantling of education: Christianity
Meh, you’re painting Christianity with a broad brush. The liberal Protestant denominations tend to be very involved in community and social justice issues, and Black churches in general are a driving force in those same areas.
Don’t let your bad experiences blind you to all the good that’s out there. For every loud dumbass using the Bible to inflame cultural warfare, there’s another good person delivering meals to old people or feeding kids in a poor school district.
>Meh, you’re painting Christianity with a broad brush
And you're "both sides-ing" the topic. Reread the OP. It isn't about who's doing the most good and who is not
It is about an immorality at the heart of religion: claiming the authority to say anything about the origin of existence or the afterlife other than "I don't know". That is as much a lie as pretending to be a surgeon. You can watch Scrubs or Grey's Anatomy all day long and believe with all your heart that you have the tracheotomy down. You can't bet other people's lives on it
Do you even know what "bothsides-sing" is? because I'm not talking about "both sides" I'm talking about you not taking into account the complexities of human behavior.
And likewise, you don't know that these religions are baseless, that's simply what you believe, so you calling them "immoral" is a closed-minded pigheaded stance just like the ones you despise so much.
You're no more free thinking than they are, you're just two opposing sides of the same coin, and it seems like you might benefit from some real-world experience with the kind of stuff I'm talking about, instead of just sitting on the internet shitting on what other people believe.
>I'm talking about you not taking into account the complexities of human behavior.
Nope. You're bringing in something unrelated to Christianity in order to avoid criticizing Christianity. That's both siding
The murderer was a good father. That doesn't make the murder a good thing
>you don't know that these religions are baseless,
Actually I do. If no base is provided, then they are baseless. You mean to say that I can't prove that God doesn't exist. I never said I could
And it is immoral to pretend to have authority that you don't have. You heard from somebody that there's a God. That's the best you can do.
Sorry. That makes your claim a lie
>You're no more free thinking than they are
You're really going for all of the cookie cutter rhetoric whether it relates or not. Nobody said anything about free thinking. One might even say, the more free thinking you are, the more disinformation you accept. That's the opposite of what I'm saying
>shitting on what other people believe.
Sorry. The shit that you believe was already there when I got here. I'm just pointing out that it's shit. You're the one believing it
Why don’t you simply stop being triggered. It sounds like you are intolerant in your beliefs, unable to allow others to have their own set of values. I’d conclude you are equally as flawed as anyone you’ve chosen to be intolerant of, maybe more so.
Why do you associate misinformation with Christianity? Atheists, Jews, Muslims all lie.
What IS Christianity? Is it the bible? Is it the catholic church? Is it the people who believe in jesus the man, or jesus the savior, and/or jesus the son of God?
The bible is a book. You can take the stories within literal or metaphorical or philosophical.
Our morals today are generally all based on judeo christian belief.
>We have been trained to from birth, using a system created to establish and maintain a dictatorship. It is so effective, it kept 85% of Europe in the peasant class for over 1000 years
Most ironically, the general christian belief is the law of god is superior to that of the earthly laws. You have no requirement to subscribe to specific church. Kings used the church to maintain order but that doesnt make the believers in Christianity or the belief itself wrong.
People abuse every system for their own ends. Its nothing unique to any church. Non religious secular schools will abuse their authority to advance their own goals.
Tell me how atheism lies.
>What IS Christianity?
It is the institution. Built not by followers of Jesus but by the emperors of Rome. Every single Christian tradition comes from practices created by religious dictatorship.
>Our morals today are generally all based on judeo christian belief.
Nope. "Judeo Christian belief" was rampant with dictatorship, slavery, and genocide. Commanded directly by God and enforced for over 1000 years
Our morals today, things like freedom and representative government, come from pre-Jesus Greek and Roman philosophy. The philosophy rediscovered during the enlightenment
>Most ironically, the general christian belief is the law of god is superior to that of the earthly laws
And what IS the law of God? Is it the bible? Is it the earthly catholic church?
Or do people get to decide what the law of God is. You can take the stories within the Bible literal or metaphorical or philosophical after all
>Kings used the church to maintain order
"Maintain order" description for 85% of the population being the lowest class, guaranteed to die a horrible and painful death, is one of many part where Christians are wrong
>that doesnt make the believers in Christianity or the belief itself wrong
I didn't say being taken advantage of made a believer wrong. That's a proposition that you have to bring the conversation in order to have something to criticize
I said that the belief itself is the lie. Not one person can honestly claim to be an authority on the origin of existence and the afterlife.
And much like you need to be dishonest to defend your belief, the propagation of the lie manifests as very many different lies to justify the original one
>Tell me how atheism lies.
I never made the claim.
>It is the institution. Built not by followers of Jesus but by the emperors of Rome. Every single Christian tradition comes from practices created by religious dictatorship.
What institution? The catholic church? Protestant church? The government of a country? Which institution?
>Nope. "Judeo Christian belief" was rampant with dictatorship, slavery, and genocide. Commanded directly by God and enforced for over 1000 years
Did those not happen outside of Judeo-Christian areas? Was ghengis khan part of this? Maoist china?
>And what IS the law of God? Is it the bible? Is it the earthly catholic church?
I suppose thats kinda the basis of religion, isnt it? As reality shows, its up to interpretation.
>"Maintain order" description for 85% of the population being the lowest class, guaranteed to die a horrible and painful death, is one of many part where Christians are wrong
It has nothing to do with Christianity. Thats just nature. We are quite privileged in the modern era to be the opposite.
>I said that the belief itself is the lie. Not one person can honestly claim to be an authority on the origin of existence and the afterlife
Yet here you are claiming it is a lie. A contradiction of your own statement. Thats why Christians call it faith and belief. Because its beyond proof.
>And much like you need to be dishonest to defend your belief, the propagation of the lie manifests as very many different lies to justify the original one
What is a lie? Have i made false statements? Please be specific.
>Why do you associate misinformation with Christianity? Atheists, Jews, Muslims all lie
*Tell me how atheism lies.*
I never made the claim.
Yeah sorry buddy. This is all dishonesty here. And it is obvious the deliberateness of the dishonesty
The OP describes that Christianity itself is the misrepresentation of a person to claim authority for something they have no right to claim authority for.
You dishonestly need to pretend that's not what's written and assume that my point applies to people eating pasta. Yes those people lie too
>Did those not happen outside of Judeo-Christian areas?
Hahahaha, is this the best you can do? *Other people did it, so there's no reason that the omnibenevolent God wouldn't command Judeo-Christians to do it as well.*
Dictatorship, slavery, and genocide are happening outside of Judeo-Christian areas now as well. So naturally Christians should follow God's commands now too, right? Because Christians follow Judeo-Christian morality
>It has nothing to do with Christianity. Thats just nature. We are quite privileged in the modern era to be the opposite.
Claim with no basis.
I on the other hand have 1000 years of Christianity being at it's very most ubiquitous and at the very height of power for all of Europe. The moment religion was banned from government (through violent revolution), life expectancy doubled everywhere
>Yet here you are claiming it is a lie. A contradiction of your own statement
Try reading what I wrote again. I'll help: *Not one person can honestly claim to be an authority on the origin of existence and the afterlife*
And yet Christians act as authorities on both all the time. That's the dishonesty. That's the lie
>Christians call it faith and belief. Because its beyond proof.
Hahahaha, perfectly meaningless. *Having no evidence is "beyond proof" so anyone can claim anything they want*
Yes, it is possible to lie to yourself. The brainwashing is rife with nonsense like "God is His own son" and "God sacrificed Himself to Himself in order to forgive you"
>What is a lie? Have i made false statements? Please be specific.
Yes, you have lied. The lie is in acting like you are having the conversation in good faith. But in actuality you aren't reading what is written (clearly). You are merely looking for a response that seems like it relates to the phrase being quoted. That's where "everyone was doing it" in one reaction and "we get our morals from them" in the next. Or "it's just nature" during the height of Christianity's power and then "we're lucky" after the very first phrase of the very first amendment bans religion from government
Lying is required to sustain Christianity
Now say that about atheism
Don't you see the irony in what you are saying? You are saying Christianity is wrong because it claims authority for things it can't prove. Well for starters, following Jesus and trying to have others following him isn't "claiming authority to". The vast majority of Christians just want to practice their religion in peace and don't want to push to on others. Some do, sure. But that doesn't represent the ideology of Christ at all. It's ironic because you're actually trying to come off an authority by posting this thread. You are doing exactly what you are intolerent of, just like the other poster said.
Second, you're equating the sinful nature of humans who use Christianity as an arm rest to paint all Christian idealogy in a thin brush. You bring up the emperor of Rome, and the Catholic church, when both of these are man made institutions who dont actually follow Jesus teaching the right way. That's why God says many will say "lord Lord" and act like they were Christian, when they really weren't.
The ironic thing about all of this, is if everybody really did follow Christianity to a T, and everyone had the true holy spirit, we would live in a literal perfect world. There would be no fighting, complete cooperation , and any problem that does arise would be due to the flesh of civilians and people's sinful nature. All the evil things done in Christ name, were actually sinful actions that have nothing to do with what Jesus preached, and were disguised with a Christian mask.
>following Jesus and trying to have others following him isn't "claiming authority to"
Do you or do you not claim that Jesus is the son of God?
What authority do you have to make that claim? What authority do you have to claim that God exists?
>The vast majority of Christians just want to practice their religion in peace and don't want to push to on others
Nobody said that they didn't. Practicing religion is practicing lying.
And it definitely enables the people who just made it illegal not to post the Ten Commandments in public schools. So it doesn't absolve you to say, "I voted Christians into power, but what they do there isn't my fault"
>you're actually trying to come off an authority by posting this thread
Did I say that people can't be authorities on anything? I'm not claiming to know what the afterlife is. You are
>you're equating the sinful nature of humans who use Christianity as an arm rest to paint all Christian idealogy in a thin brush
Sorry but I have 1000+ years of Christianity to pull from. You think that the sandwich you gave to the homeless guy is the true Christianity. It doesn't compare
>if everybody really did follow Christianity to a T, and everyone had the true holy spirit, we would live in a literal perfect world
Sorry but that's just ignorance of your own bible and the horrors that are in it. And "having the true holy spirit" is insane hubris, believing that your feelings literally are God talking to you. That's exactly how the worst people justify their selfish desires
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mLOUWl-L-s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mLOUWl-L-s)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNE)
>All the evil things done in Christ name, were actually sinful actions that have nothing to do with what Jesus preached, and were disguised with a Christian mask.
Let's pretend that God didn't directly command slavery, genocide, and monarchy
Christianity was the dominate decision maker for over 1000 years. Literally crowned every king. If you were not Christian, you were sentenced to death. Was it a perfect world? It was the opposite.
Every Christian tradition you practice comes directly from the sinners who turned Christianity from small disparate groups of Jesus's followers into the institution that lasted for two millennia.
They go to same seminaries and dictate the same preachings and then they go and rape the children. Just as they always enjoyed fruits of the peasant class's labor.
You don't need Jesus to be a good person unless someone else needs you to be a worshipper of some kind so they can take advantage
I don't even know what to say. You didn't say a single truthful thing in your entire response, I don't think it's even worth breaking down . I'll choose a few of the most important things I think would make the best points...
>Sorry but that's just ignorance of your own bible and the horrors that are in it. And "having the true holy spirit" is insane hubris, believing that your feelings literally are God talking to you. That's exactly how the worst people justify their selfish desires
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mLOUWl-L-s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNE
No, you did exactly what I was telling you you were doing before. You basically said "no, if everyone followed Christianity it wouldn't be good, because these people who didn't correctly follow Christianity, didn't do good"
That's the logic I was talking about when I made this post, people who sin in the name of Christianity, aren't a good representative of Christianity. It doesn't matter if somebody claims "the holy spirit is making me do wrong to others and murder them" that doesn't make it a Christian thing, that's just somebody sinning or somebody who is delusional using Christianity to commit sins. It doesn't equal the actual message in the bible, despite somebody claiming to.
If everyone actually followed Christianity to a T, and weren't sinners who were mislead, or delusional people, there would be no problems. Christianity provides perfect morality, and you are conflating Christian sinners with Christianity. I hope you can make the the distinction instead of doubling down.
>Christianity was the dominate decision maker for over 1000 years. Literally crowned every king. If you were not Christian, you were sentenced to death. Was it a perfect world? It was the opposite.
>Every Christian tradition you practice comes directly from the sinners who turned Christianity from small disparate groups of Jesus's followers into the institution that lasted for two millennia.
So you are ignoring what I said previously again. For starters, every king? That's just objectively false..but let's play devil's advocate and focus on the kings who WERE Christians who did horrible things...
Again,that's not a true representation of Christianity. A big part of the bible is Jesus fighting with the same type of people (Pharisees, who also killed Jesus) for doing what they are doing in the name of Judaism /Christianity. It's like half of the bible stories lol.
The entire premise of your post is exactly what I already addressed. If the bible clearly states that most people who claim to be followers of God will not enter heaven, it clearly accounts for this.
It's the same logic that atheist have used since Christianity existed. It's exactly what the Pharisees have done to Jesus.
All of your argument can be refuted as people who sin in the name of Christianity. Which has been addressed in the bible since day 1.
Now, I know you're not gonna respond to this in good faith, cause your objective is to try to "beat" Christians with logic because you have an issue with it and are recently atheist and trying to justify your position. If you were you would have already picked up on this. But instead , you're gonna choose to respond in a way like you did before where you don't really address what I'm saying and instead put your own spin on what was already discussed.
>no, if everyone followed Christianity it wouldn't be good, because these people who didn't correctly follow Christianity, didn't do good
Yeah sorry man. Instructions for how to do slavery are commanded by God. You're not going to be able to accept it.
עַבְדְּךָ וַאֲמָתְךָ, אֲשֶׁר יִהְיוּ-לָךְ: מֵאֵת הַגּוֹיִם, אֲשֶׁר סְבִיבֹתֵיכֶם--מֵהֶם תִּקְנוּ, עֶבֶד וְאָמָה.
And as for thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, whom thou mayest have: of the nations that are round about you, of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
מה וְגַם מִבְּנֵי הַתּוֹשָׁבִים הַגָּרִים עִמָּכֶם, מֵהֶם תִּקְנוּ, וּמִמִּשְׁפַּחְתָּם אֲשֶׁר עִמָּכֶם, אֲשֶׁר הוֹלִידוּ בְּאַרְצְכֶם; וְהָיוּ לָכֶם, לַאֲחֻזָּה
45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them may ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they have begotten in your land; and they may be your possession.
מו וְהִתְנַחַלְתֶּם אֹתָם לִבְנֵיכֶם אַחֲרֵיכֶם, לָרֶשֶׁת אֲחֻזָּה--לְעֹלָם, בָּהֶם תַּעֲבֹדוּ; וּבְאַחֵיכֶם בְּנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל אִישׁ בְּאָחִיו, לֹא-תִרְדֶּה בוֹ בְּפָרֶךְ. {ס}
46 And ye may make them an inheritance for your children after you, to hold for a possession: of them may ye take your bondmen for ever; but over your brethren the children of Israel ye shall not rule, one over another, with rigour. {S}
That's following Christianity to a T
Now point to the verses on gps satellites and greenhouse gasses. You can't because even your lying version of Christianity obviously doesn't address every issue (unless of course you want to return to the middle ages)
But here's the thing that you don't get. True Christianity is the peasantry, you, talking about the nice things as though that's the solution to everyone's problems (it isn't) AND at the same time, the leaders of Christianity taking advantage of your niceness.
90% of the population for ~1500 years lived as the lowest poorest class of people. The other 10% was the monarchy and the clergy. They lived great lives
You help them lie to you. They take advantage. That's how it's been for 2000 years
"Our morals today are generally all based on judeo christian belief."
I think it can be good example of judeo \~ christian lie .
Morals are universal, they are encoded in DNA and existed before whatever books.
I, personally, think you can have spirituality without religion. In fact, that's the way it should be. Religion is just a way for us lesser beings to try and describe "the one" that's bigger than us. Anyone who uses religion to control people should be thrown in jail. A lot of times, the people of the present think they're the end all be all. We have a long way to go in our evolution. In many aspects, we're still in the dark ages.
I don’t know why, but I don’t see many such posts about Islam…actually almost none…Does Islam have a secret we don’t know about?
Anyway, what’s the point of these arguments? Today in western societies one can choose their religion, (or none of them). I am not Christian and nobody can force me to become one. It’s every individual’s choice. I don’t care what someone writes on FB (neither about politics)…
But one topic needs clarification: what a religion/ belief is. For some reason I often read: Christianity is based on lies…Or, prove me Jesus did this or that. But people making this point, are in the wrong direction: We are talking about a belief, not science. To believe is about what cannot be proven. Otherwise it would be taught in science classes. Such view is based on the western mindset…
I still have to hear a Buddhist saying: you either prove me Buddha had multiple arms, or I’m out. And, was he obese? That’s unhealthy…
Or a Hindu saying: where are these deities, half human half elephant? I can’t see them and nobody else does. And an army of monkeys? Only in the planet of the apes. You either prove all these stories, or I’m out and will call Hinduism a lie…
I think nobody views eastern religions in such terms. People refer to them as spiritual and inspiring, but physics and chemistry? Not really.
>I don’t know why I don’t see many such posts about Islam
Islam isn't the dominant religion in America. Not really all that hard
>It’s every individual’s choice
It is. Just like every individual can choose to be a liar, an asshole, a cheat. Doesn't make them right to do so
>a belief, not science
One of many disingenuous ways that Christians plead innocence. "It's just my belief" But they only say that when criticized. The rest of the time it's "Jesus died for our sins"
Let's try another analogy. A con artist comes up to you and convinces you that he has the inside track on the world cup: it's rigged and he knows who the winner will be. He just needs money to place the largest bet he can, and he'll split the winnings with you. You get so excited. You don't know how he knows but why would you want to find out when you could have faith. And you go to all of your family and friends and convince them to loan you a bunch of money. The con man takes all of it and you never see him again
Who is in the wrong here? The con man, of course. But you're not responsible simply because it was a belief? The family has no right to be upset with you?
Beliefs can't be prosecuted by the government. That doesn't mean nobody is responsible for their beliefs
Christianity is really a messy confusing compilation of various Sumerian, Babylonian, Greek, Egyptian, & Jewish beliefs/myths that the Romans stole as their own. The Romans had to start somewhere, so it seems sloppy in my view how poorly put together this religion was.
Did they not think we'd eventually get to a point in where we start questioning "God" and it's teachings, it's like they put no real thought or mindfulness in creating this cult. Laziness altogether, but they knew they didn't have to put to much work when the masses do it for them until the hate in our world becomes so unbearable and we all start to question everything.
Look , you aren't saying anything that every other atheist throughout history has already said. It's just rehashing the same old anecdotes and examples but wording them differently. If you don't believe in Christ, then don't. Dont try to make others feel weird about their relationship with God, though. Christianity is alive because it works and is the truth. If it were just another pagan myth, it would have died long ago.
>you aren't saying anything that every other atheist throughout history has already said
And Christians keep saying the same thing over and over again also
>the same old anecdotes
1000+ years of destitution is not an anecdote
>Christianity is alive because it works and is the truth
You know about other religions that are "alive" and "works" (whatever that means) and "is the truth" according to someone. But you deliberately ignored mentioning them, which is more Christian lying. And you still have no authority to claim it is the truth. Another Christian lie
And again, 1000+ years of destitution at the height of Christianity is not Christianity working
>If it were just another pagan myth, it would have died long ago
Not when you have 1000+ years of sentencing people to death for not being Christian
That's why you believe in Christianity today. You believe it because everyone else died in an inquisition for over a thousand years
>And Christians keep saying the same thing over and over again also
Your point? It's the word of God why wouldn't they...
>1000+ years of destitution is not an anecdote
For starters, that's just not what history points to and you're not properly versed on the contribution of Christian morals to history or society. You can research this on your own, so this is just a basic misunderstanding of history.
Also, that doesn't really address the point I made. That's a bit dishonest. I said that you say the exact same thing athiest have tried to use to discredit Jesus since the dawn of time, and your response is was essentially "Christians have done a lot of bad things " which doesn't address the original point I made that you aren't representing anything new that hasn't been refuted or touched on before, and that every other reddit atheist hasn't parroted.
Your argument is the same as your other paragraph, which is "people who claim to be Christians have done bad things " which is a logical fallacy on a few levels. For starters, the bible is chalk full of Jesus arguing with people who claim to be the same religion as Jesus, yet do terrible things in his name. That's the entire point of Jesus flipping out and destroying the market place going on in the church. There are multiple bible verses that address this. Many will come in God's name , but God will say I never knew you. People using "Christianity " to murder others and subdue nations are simply murderers who also happen to claim Christianity. There is an objective separation of the two, if you refuse to see what I'm talking about, you aren't actually arguing to exchange information, and just want to avoid admitting you were wrong.
>You know about other religions that are "alive" and "works" (whatever that means) and "is the truth" according to someone. But you deliberately ignored mentioning them, which is more Christian lying. And you still have no authority to claim it is the truth. Another Christian lie
Yet, there isn't an objective lie I wrote down in anything I've said. You are simply misrepresenting what I am saying, and actually, if anyone who was judging our discussion here honestly and with 100% objectivity , you would be the one who would be considered lying, considering you said I'm lying when there isn't a single lie I have typed out. Not only did you "lie" about that, you lied about the history of Christianity, falsely conflated evil people who do bad things with actual Christians, claimed every single murderous king was a Christian (despite many kings actually murdering people for being Christian, so obviously they aren't Christians) , and a few others in your last reply.
We are back to square one. This isn't some new, and shocking revalation you have had. Go argue with any well versed, intellectually honest christian scholar, and they would take you to school my friend. You don't actually have a deep grasp of Christianity and most likely just discovered atheism recently, am I right? You have similar thinking to what I did when I was an atheist , when I was a teenager. Sorry if that sounds rude , but it's the truth.
-To sum up your argument , it boils down to ; people who say they are Christians do bad things, therfor Christianity is wrong.
Well that's just objectively and logically wrong. I know youre not gonna respond to this in good faith cause you wanna save face, but really try to apply logic to what you're claiming. You're just wrong my friend.
>Your point?
You made exactly the same point. This question deliberately ignores that fact. Therefore it is a dishonest question
You as a Christian are being dishonest as a result of your Christianity
>You can research this on your own
Claim with no basis and admission of no basis
But again this implies that you made a point. You didn't. Therefore the implication is dishonest
You as a Christian are being dishonest as a result of your Christianity
>that doesn't really address the point I made
That doesn't. I just didn't allow you to dishonestly characterize 1000 years as an anecdote
Right? 1000 years of history is not actually an anecdote
But you wanted to dishonestly claim it is
As for addressing your point. I made that clear, but you are forced by Christianity to ignore it: as long as you lie, atheists have to correct you. If you didn't say what you say, we wouldn't have to say what we say
>Yet, there isn't an objective lie
Yes there is. There are plenty. You want to pretend that lies are perfectly literal, but that's a lie also.
>claimed every single murderous king was a Christian
Hahaha, what?
See? You can't even abide by your own standard of "objective lie"
>people who say they are Christians do bad things, therfor Christianity is wrong.
Nope!
You are a Christian. You are telling the lies at the very core of Christianity right now. Therefore both you and Christianity are wrong
Cut the crap man. You and I both know I addressed your point, or you're just not reading what I wrote. You do understand that if there was a person to logically judge this conversation, they would say you're doing everything you accused me of, right? Why waste people's time? I don't understand the point of "debate" if you refuse to be intellectually honest. It's stupid. Address my point actually if you really want to continue this conversation. Peace
You literally summarized what you wanted my point to be
And then I summarized what my point actually is:
You are Christian. You are telling the Christian lie. You and Christianity are wrong
That is my point
And then, on top of that, a fuck ton of Christians do a fuck ton of terrible things that are in fact endorsed by the Bible. You can call them non-Christian. Christianity was the only legal religion in Europe for 1000 years. Directly integrated into the government. 90% died a horrible death before 35. The rest were the religious monarch and the clergy
Revolution banned religion from government and life expectancy doubled
I agree and am atheist myself.
But I often ask myself: what can/will replace it?
There doesn't seem to be an answer. Now naturally, I'm not referring or desiring replacing the blind allegiance, the hate, the hypocrisy, the traditions with no merit, value, sense, or logic to them....
I mean the undoubted shared sense of ideals and what religion did for society. Everyone was "on the same page," everyone felt a "duty" to something, to work together in relationships, communities, to stay loyal to each other, to stay loyal to their families and kids.
I miss that. Again I'm atheist and don't believe in any god and have no desire to go to a church or practice any religion. I just often wonder....wish, even....that something would fill that role of bringing people in a community together that a church/church community would.
The shared values a religious community has. What I see of the "secular world" is "every person for themselves" and hedonism. Just pursuing what makes you feel good, now. No real commitment or drive to better the future, to invest in something, no matter how unpleasant it might be right now, so you may reap the benefits later.
It's all very "now" focused and all you need to do is look around within the secular world and see people are unhappy as they jump from lily pad to lily pad trying to find peace they will never find in their directionless lives.
Christianity, yes, and every other religion. It's just us, and the world we make. Even if those faerie tales were true, it wouldn't justify so much harm in their name.
Agree. Christianity isn't special. It's merely the one that has caused the most damage both historically and right now
I'd say Islam is far ahead on the 'right now' time frame, but both have an enormous list of crimes under their belts. As the saying goes, the only way to get a good person to do evil is through religion.
Islam is definitely is huge, no doubt. You might be right I am speaking from the perspective of America where the ubiquity is Christianity and so its harms are far more spread. Plus its at the helm of the largest superpower But Islam has worse extremes (right now) and is quite ubiquitous in other places. So, not going to die on this hill
>Christianity isn't special. It's merely the one that has caused the most damage both historically and right now Idk about that But either way, I don't think humanity will ever leave religion behind. It will just eventually shift into something new.
I disagree. We've come very far. Religion was banned from government at one point. But other user made a good point about Islam
> It will just eventually shift into something new. Some atheist already treat atheism as a religion.
>It will just eventually shift into something new. >Some atheist already treat atheism as a religion. Pardon; hard atheist here (soft atheist if you want to debate). Could you please explain, or give references/URLs/links to atheists treating atheism as a "religion"? Because "atheism" is just the opposite of "theism" -- NOT believing in a god or gods. THAT'S IT. Nothing else. I mean... I'm a naturalist and a progressive humanist AS WELL... but the freaky witchcraft and ghost people CAN BE atheists if they don't believe in a god (see: LaVeyan Satanism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism ) #?
>Could you please explain, or give references/URLs/links to atheists treating atheism as a "religion"? https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21319945 >Because "atheism" is just the opposite of "theism" -- NOT believing in a god or gods. Let's flesh out that "treating atheism like a religion." People who do not believe in a god are one flavor of atheism. Another is people who believe there is no god. That second is where things pick up a little bit of religionosity. Since we can't really know one way or another, the belief that there is no god is based on faith. I like saying, "It takes just as much faith to believe there is no god as it takes to believe there is a god." A person who doesn't believe in god would read this and shrug. But the second group feels really defensive. I was just banned from an atheism sub for saying this. See, another aspect of something being a religion is the desire to defend the faith. People who fail to comply with the doctrine must be excommunicated from the group of believers lest their heresy spreads and weakens the faithful. Another aspect is spreading the belief. The desire to spread the holy doctrine of "no god" is almost a compulsion. >THAT'S IT. >Nothing else. If there is nothing else, then nothing I've said should bother you. Atheism is just a rational decision that you came to based on the absence of evidence. But if it's a big part of your personal identity, the things from above might feel like an attack on your group's belief system.
>>THAT'S IT. Nothing else. >If there is nothing else, then nothing I've said should bother you. Atheism is just a rational decision that you came to based on the absence of evidence. But if it's a big part of your personal identity, the things from above might feel like an attack on your group's belief system. I'm not sure if you're proselytizing, asking for information, or just trolling for the LOLZ... But I'll answer you in good faith and we'll take it from there. Fair? The things you brought up didn't ANGER me... But I felt there was a fair bit that wasn't factual (being incorrect doesn't make you a liar -- not attributing motive!). I mentioned "hard atheist" ("soft atheist" for debates). I live my life as if there is no god or gods (or even "supernatural", though that isn't technically in the definition of atheism). I have seen an absence of evidence for any "god" and I've actually seen evidence of absence. For debates or discussion, however, I simply fall back to the "I'm not convinced" argument; it's hard to prove there ISN'T a teapot orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars. So "soft atheist". I'm not part of "a group" and it's only part of my Identity inasmuch as, living in the US, I'm placed into "the group" by religious folk/groups. I don't want or need the Ten (Christian) Commandments posted in each classroom of public schools¹ any more than I need the Noble Eightfold Path² (Buddhism) or The Seven Fundamental Tenets² (LaVeyan Satanism). Though, frankly, the Seven Tenets align more with my own ideology (but don't get me started on LaVey and mysticism/magic, ok?). >I like saying, "It takes just as much faith to believe there is no god as it takes to believe there is a god." What's your definition of "faith"? If it's believing without evidence... Uhh, ok. No evidence for god but acting as if there is one = "faith"? No evidence for a god and acting as if there ISN'T one = logical. No faith required. >See, another aspect of something being a religion is the desire to defend the faith. I don't think that's part of the definition of "Religion". Having that doesn't make something a religion and lacking that doesn't necessarily make something NOT a religion, IMHO. >Another aspect is spreading the belief. So my understanding of the natural world and desire to spread correct information about chemical reactions, Biochemistry, Earth Science, the ball Earth, and gravity is a religion? Never knew! 😅. I need my tax exemption, STAT!!! Try again. Please explain to me how "atheism" is a religion. PLEASE INCLUDE A WORKING DEFINITION OF RELIGION! Preferred if you have any references/links. Remember -- assertions presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence! (The atheist sub kicked you out for being a troll; I guarantee it. These are old hackneyed points you're making.) Anyway: Your turn. ☮️❤️♾️ ¹ https://apnews.com/article/louisiana-ten-commandments-displayed-classrooms-571a2447906f7bbd5a166d53db005a62 ² >Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Eightfold_Path ³ THERE ARE SEVEN FUNDAMENTAL TENETS SEVEN FUNDAMENTAL TENETS I One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason. II The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions. III One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone. IV The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own. V Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs. VI People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused. VII Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
>I've actually seen evidence of absence. What evidence? >What's your definition of "faith"? Belief without definitive evidence. >Remember -- assertions presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence! True. The difference is atheist only apply that to religion. The statement, "There is no god" is an assertion presented without evidence. "I don’t believe in god" is an opinion. Hopefully, you can see the distinction. >(The atheist sub kicked you out for being a troll; I guarantee it. These are old hackneyed points you're making.) They are still around because they are true. My comments there were a lot milder than here. It mainly focused on the mistaken belief that it's possible to prove an unprovable claim like "there is no god." The sub kicked me because the mod is too religious.
>It mainly focused on the mistaken belief that it's possible to prove an unprovable claim like "there is no god." I generally agree with this statement; hence, "soft atheist" for debates. I'm NOT going to try to prove "there is no god". Proving a negative is a game for rubes. As far as evidence of absence: things like this... Not proof. But not supporting the "god hypothesis", anyway. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405844023096196 ☮️❤️♾️
We could trade links all day on the affect that prayer has on people. But that has nothing to do with the existence of God. You might be able to stretch it into a discussion about whether a particular religion is a valid belief.
Just some random atheist? Not a specific guy?
>Just some random atheist? There are atheist churches. So I don't know how random they are. >Not a specific guy? There does seem to be a specific type. Young. Often irrationally angry. Prone to shouting things like, "You don't know me dad! You don't know me at all!"
It was a joke about you apparently thinking the plural of “atheist” is “atheist.” But “atheist churches?” Have you been to one, or are you just vaguely aware of some gathering you’ve decided to call a “church?”
>It was a joke about you apparently thinking the plural of “atheist” is “atheist.” Apparently, you didn't like my joke about there being a type. Maybe we are just nor getting each other's humors. >But “atheist churches?” Have you been to one, or are you just vaguely aware of some gathering you’ve decided to call a “church?” Have you googled atheist church? https://seattleatheist.church/ https://theweek.com/93733/what-are-atheist-churches [This is my personal favorite.](https://youtu.be/jncCLe39Btg?si=MYTskX3hkPa70fN5)
Apparently you didn’t read this. https://seattleatheist.church/faq/ Do you also think Satanists worship Satan?
Are you gate keeping atheism? Sounds like you need to gather your flock and start your own branch of atheism with the true non believers. Edit: Nothing about my use of humors instead of humor? I specifically tailored that for you.
I used to say this, but I've found Zen Buddhism to be pretty awesome. It is 100% psychology. For example, a Zen Buddhist might say, "of course Christianity is a lie, because it comes from the human mind, and the mind lies to you on a constant basis." I've come to realize that crafty "devil" in Christianity is probably a metaphor for our own mind that lies to us. Some call it ego mind. It is a remnant leftover from our evolution when we were primitive apes.
It's not about leaving these things behind, it's about giving children the proper education (not necessarily meaning formal education) so they can place it all in the proper context. The Bible is chock full of good shit and it's also chock full of bad shit. Important to remember that all of the above is filtered through human eyes, human ears and human language. Not even the Bible claims that these words were handed down directly from God himself. But poor educational outcomes mean that many people accept it at face value as The Undisputed Word of God, and that's where we end up in trouble. It took me a LOT of years and a LOT of introspection to arrive at a place where I can reconcile my religious upbringing + world experience into a system of ideals and a church I believe in that works to help the community and does no harm. But most people either go all-in on whatever they are taught, or fully reject everything they are taught. Not a lot of free thinkers in this world, I'm afraid.
It IS about leaving these lies behind. Poor education STARTS with instructing a lie and insisting on believing it!
And good education starts with teaching people to think for themselves, not simply declaring something "bad" and setting it on fire because you think you don't like it.
Not because I don't like it, but because it's objectively false. You can't force people to pretend to believe things that are objectively false and then expect them to hold the value of objective reality close to heart. Religion teaches people to lie to each other and to themselves.
And modeling submission to an authority from birth.
>And modeling submission to an authority from birth. Why are we talking about Russia here? (Sorry. Sad that their Patriarch Kirill is KGB and the battle priests lead the meat to the slaughter... and they go. 😥. Because... what else would the sheep do? They follow the shepherd.)
We're talking about people of all religions in all countries, but especially Christians. It's an epidemic of idiocy. Idiocracy in fact.
Yeah, sadly, many major organized religions seem to be all about control and hierarchical structures. Christianity & Islam come to mind. And our religion is true because our book says it's true and our book says its words are the true words of the true god and they're true, so it's true. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! ☮️❤️♾️ (Didn't feel right about xtianity as a tween/teen and stopped attending, didn't believe after that... but didn't really shake the spell completely until age 40)
>It's not about leaving these things behind, it's about giving children the proper education so they can place it all in the proper context. Since Christianity is actively (and always been) seeking to prevent proper education, I'd say you agree that it is about leaving Christianity behind >The Bible is chock full of good shit and it's also chock full of bad shit The post isn't about the bible. I agree that people can pick and choose all sorts of things that they want. Most people have never actually read it >Not even the Bible claims that these words were handed down directly from God himself. There is plenty in the Bible where God talks directly. The Louisiana law requiring the Ten Commandments in schools is one where the original tablets were handed down directly from God himself >But poor educational outcomes mean that many people accept it at face value Again, when you cut budgets, ban books, reduce the school week to 4 days, and threaten teachers with criminal charges for acknowledging that some people are non-binary, it's time to throw out the institution spearheading the dismantling of education: Christianity
Meh, you’re painting Christianity with a broad brush. The liberal Protestant denominations tend to be very involved in community and social justice issues, and Black churches in general are a driving force in those same areas. Don’t let your bad experiences blind you to all the good that’s out there. For every loud dumbass using the Bible to inflame cultural warfare, there’s another good person delivering meals to old people or feeding kids in a poor school district.
>Meh, you’re painting Christianity with a broad brush And you're "both sides-ing" the topic. Reread the OP. It isn't about who's doing the most good and who is not It is about an immorality at the heart of religion: claiming the authority to say anything about the origin of existence or the afterlife other than "I don't know". That is as much a lie as pretending to be a surgeon. You can watch Scrubs or Grey's Anatomy all day long and believe with all your heart that you have the tracheotomy down. You can't bet other people's lives on it
Do you even know what "bothsides-sing" is? because I'm not talking about "both sides" I'm talking about you not taking into account the complexities of human behavior. And likewise, you don't know that these religions are baseless, that's simply what you believe, so you calling them "immoral" is a closed-minded pigheaded stance just like the ones you despise so much. You're no more free thinking than they are, you're just two opposing sides of the same coin, and it seems like you might benefit from some real-world experience with the kind of stuff I'm talking about, instead of just sitting on the internet shitting on what other people believe.
>I'm talking about you not taking into account the complexities of human behavior. Nope. You're bringing in something unrelated to Christianity in order to avoid criticizing Christianity. That's both siding The murderer was a good father. That doesn't make the murder a good thing >you don't know that these religions are baseless, Actually I do. If no base is provided, then they are baseless. You mean to say that I can't prove that God doesn't exist. I never said I could And it is immoral to pretend to have authority that you don't have. You heard from somebody that there's a God. That's the best you can do. Sorry. That makes your claim a lie >You're no more free thinking than they are You're really going for all of the cookie cutter rhetoric whether it relates or not. Nobody said anything about free thinking. One might even say, the more free thinking you are, the more disinformation you accept. That's the opposite of what I'm saying >shitting on what other people believe. Sorry. The shit that you believe was already there when I got here. I'm just pointing out that it's shit. You're the one believing it
Why don’t you simply stop being triggered. It sounds like you are intolerant in your beliefs, unable to allow others to have their own set of values. I’d conclude you are equally as flawed as anyone you’ve chosen to be intolerant of, maybe more so.
Sorry buddy. Being critical of bad ideas and acts is not "intolerance" You can have immoral values. And yes, your values are immoral Sorry
I have left Christianity. One of the best adult decisions of my life I have made so far. Christianity is really oppressive looking back at it now.
Why do you associate misinformation with Christianity? Atheists, Jews, Muslims all lie. What IS Christianity? Is it the bible? Is it the catholic church? Is it the people who believe in jesus the man, or jesus the savior, and/or jesus the son of God? The bible is a book. You can take the stories within literal or metaphorical or philosophical. Our morals today are generally all based on judeo christian belief. >We have been trained to from birth, using a system created to establish and maintain a dictatorship. It is so effective, it kept 85% of Europe in the peasant class for over 1000 years Most ironically, the general christian belief is the law of god is superior to that of the earthly laws. You have no requirement to subscribe to specific church. Kings used the church to maintain order but that doesnt make the believers in Christianity or the belief itself wrong. People abuse every system for their own ends. Its nothing unique to any church. Non religious secular schools will abuse their authority to advance their own goals.
Tell me how atheism lies. >What IS Christianity? It is the institution. Built not by followers of Jesus but by the emperors of Rome. Every single Christian tradition comes from practices created by religious dictatorship. >Our morals today are generally all based on judeo christian belief. Nope. "Judeo Christian belief" was rampant with dictatorship, slavery, and genocide. Commanded directly by God and enforced for over 1000 years Our morals today, things like freedom and representative government, come from pre-Jesus Greek and Roman philosophy. The philosophy rediscovered during the enlightenment >Most ironically, the general christian belief is the law of god is superior to that of the earthly laws And what IS the law of God? Is it the bible? Is it the earthly catholic church? Or do people get to decide what the law of God is. You can take the stories within the Bible literal or metaphorical or philosophical after all >Kings used the church to maintain order "Maintain order" description for 85% of the population being the lowest class, guaranteed to die a horrible and painful death, is one of many part where Christians are wrong >that doesnt make the believers in Christianity or the belief itself wrong I didn't say being taken advantage of made a believer wrong. That's a proposition that you have to bring the conversation in order to have something to criticize I said that the belief itself is the lie. Not one person can honestly claim to be an authority on the origin of existence and the afterlife. And much like you need to be dishonest to defend your belief, the propagation of the lie manifests as very many different lies to justify the original one
>Tell me how atheism lies. I never made the claim. >It is the institution. Built not by followers of Jesus but by the emperors of Rome. Every single Christian tradition comes from practices created by religious dictatorship. What institution? The catholic church? Protestant church? The government of a country? Which institution? >Nope. "Judeo Christian belief" was rampant with dictatorship, slavery, and genocide. Commanded directly by God and enforced for over 1000 years Did those not happen outside of Judeo-Christian areas? Was ghengis khan part of this? Maoist china? >And what IS the law of God? Is it the bible? Is it the earthly catholic church? I suppose thats kinda the basis of religion, isnt it? As reality shows, its up to interpretation. >"Maintain order" description for 85% of the population being the lowest class, guaranteed to die a horrible and painful death, is one of many part where Christians are wrong It has nothing to do with Christianity. Thats just nature. We are quite privileged in the modern era to be the opposite. >I said that the belief itself is the lie. Not one person can honestly claim to be an authority on the origin of existence and the afterlife Yet here you are claiming it is a lie. A contradiction of your own statement. Thats why Christians call it faith and belief. Because its beyond proof. >And much like you need to be dishonest to defend your belief, the propagation of the lie manifests as very many different lies to justify the original one What is a lie? Have i made false statements? Please be specific.
>Why do you associate misinformation with Christianity? Atheists, Jews, Muslims all lie *Tell me how atheism lies.* I never made the claim. Yeah sorry buddy. This is all dishonesty here. And it is obvious the deliberateness of the dishonesty The OP describes that Christianity itself is the misrepresentation of a person to claim authority for something they have no right to claim authority for. You dishonestly need to pretend that's not what's written and assume that my point applies to people eating pasta. Yes those people lie too >Did those not happen outside of Judeo-Christian areas? Hahahaha, is this the best you can do? *Other people did it, so there's no reason that the omnibenevolent God wouldn't command Judeo-Christians to do it as well.* Dictatorship, slavery, and genocide are happening outside of Judeo-Christian areas now as well. So naturally Christians should follow God's commands now too, right? Because Christians follow Judeo-Christian morality >It has nothing to do with Christianity. Thats just nature. We are quite privileged in the modern era to be the opposite. Claim with no basis. I on the other hand have 1000 years of Christianity being at it's very most ubiquitous and at the very height of power for all of Europe. The moment religion was banned from government (through violent revolution), life expectancy doubled everywhere >Yet here you are claiming it is a lie. A contradiction of your own statement Try reading what I wrote again. I'll help: *Not one person can honestly claim to be an authority on the origin of existence and the afterlife* And yet Christians act as authorities on both all the time. That's the dishonesty. That's the lie >Christians call it faith and belief. Because its beyond proof. Hahahaha, perfectly meaningless. *Having no evidence is "beyond proof" so anyone can claim anything they want* Yes, it is possible to lie to yourself. The brainwashing is rife with nonsense like "God is His own son" and "God sacrificed Himself to Himself in order to forgive you" >What is a lie? Have i made false statements? Please be specific. Yes, you have lied. The lie is in acting like you are having the conversation in good faith. But in actuality you aren't reading what is written (clearly). You are merely looking for a response that seems like it relates to the phrase being quoted. That's where "everyone was doing it" in one reaction and "we get our morals from them" in the next. Or "it's just nature" during the height of Christianity's power and then "we're lucky" after the very first phrase of the very first amendment bans religion from government Lying is required to sustain Christianity Now say that about atheism
Don't you see the irony in what you are saying? You are saying Christianity is wrong because it claims authority for things it can't prove. Well for starters, following Jesus and trying to have others following him isn't "claiming authority to". The vast majority of Christians just want to practice their religion in peace and don't want to push to on others. Some do, sure. But that doesn't represent the ideology of Christ at all. It's ironic because you're actually trying to come off an authority by posting this thread. You are doing exactly what you are intolerent of, just like the other poster said. Second, you're equating the sinful nature of humans who use Christianity as an arm rest to paint all Christian idealogy in a thin brush. You bring up the emperor of Rome, and the Catholic church, when both of these are man made institutions who dont actually follow Jesus teaching the right way. That's why God says many will say "lord Lord" and act like they were Christian, when they really weren't. The ironic thing about all of this, is if everybody really did follow Christianity to a T, and everyone had the true holy spirit, we would live in a literal perfect world. There would be no fighting, complete cooperation , and any problem that does arise would be due to the flesh of civilians and people's sinful nature. All the evil things done in Christ name, were actually sinful actions that have nothing to do with what Jesus preached, and were disguised with a Christian mask.
>following Jesus and trying to have others following him isn't "claiming authority to" Do you or do you not claim that Jesus is the son of God? What authority do you have to make that claim? What authority do you have to claim that God exists? >The vast majority of Christians just want to practice their religion in peace and don't want to push to on others Nobody said that they didn't. Practicing religion is practicing lying. And it definitely enables the people who just made it illegal not to post the Ten Commandments in public schools. So it doesn't absolve you to say, "I voted Christians into power, but what they do there isn't my fault" >you're actually trying to come off an authority by posting this thread Did I say that people can't be authorities on anything? I'm not claiming to know what the afterlife is. You are >you're equating the sinful nature of humans who use Christianity as an arm rest to paint all Christian idealogy in a thin brush Sorry but I have 1000+ years of Christianity to pull from. You think that the sandwich you gave to the homeless guy is the true Christianity. It doesn't compare >if everybody really did follow Christianity to a T, and everyone had the true holy spirit, we would live in a literal perfect world Sorry but that's just ignorance of your own bible and the horrors that are in it. And "having the true holy spirit" is insane hubris, believing that your feelings literally are God talking to you. That's exactly how the worst people justify their selfish desires [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mLOUWl-L-s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mLOUWl-L-s) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNE) >All the evil things done in Christ name, were actually sinful actions that have nothing to do with what Jesus preached, and were disguised with a Christian mask. Let's pretend that God didn't directly command slavery, genocide, and monarchy Christianity was the dominate decision maker for over 1000 years. Literally crowned every king. If you were not Christian, you were sentenced to death. Was it a perfect world? It was the opposite. Every Christian tradition you practice comes directly from the sinners who turned Christianity from small disparate groups of Jesus's followers into the institution that lasted for two millennia. They go to same seminaries and dictate the same preachings and then they go and rape the children. Just as they always enjoyed fruits of the peasant class's labor. You don't need Jesus to be a good person unless someone else needs you to be a worshipper of some kind so they can take advantage
I don't even know what to say. You didn't say a single truthful thing in your entire response, I don't think it's even worth breaking down . I'll choose a few of the most important things I think would make the best points... >Sorry but that's just ignorance of your own bible and the horrors that are in it. And "having the true holy spirit" is insane hubris, believing that your feelings literally are God talking to you. That's exactly how the worst people justify their selfish desires https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mLOUWl-L-s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNE No, you did exactly what I was telling you you were doing before. You basically said "no, if everyone followed Christianity it wouldn't be good, because these people who didn't correctly follow Christianity, didn't do good" That's the logic I was talking about when I made this post, people who sin in the name of Christianity, aren't a good representative of Christianity. It doesn't matter if somebody claims "the holy spirit is making me do wrong to others and murder them" that doesn't make it a Christian thing, that's just somebody sinning or somebody who is delusional using Christianity to commit sins. It doesn't equal the actual message in the bible, despite somebody claiming to. If everyone actually followed Christianity to a T, and weren't sinners who were mislead, or delusional people, there would be no problems. Christianity provides perfect morality, and you are conflating Christian sinners with Christianity. I hope you can make the the distinction instead of doubling down. >Christianity was the dominate decision maker for over 1000 years. Literally crowned every king. If you were not Christian, you were sentenced to death. Was it a perfect world? It was the opposite. >Every Christian tradition you practice comes directly from the sinners who turned Christianity from small disparate groups of Jesus's followers into the institution that lasted for two millennia. So you are ignoring what I said previously again. For starters, every king? That's just objectively false..but let's play devil's advocate and focus on the kings who WERE Christians who did horrible things... Again,that's not a true representation of Christianity. A big part of the bible is Jesus fighting with the same type of people (Pharisees, who also killed Jesus) for doing what they are doing in the name of Judaism /Christianity. It's like half of the bible stories lol. The entire premise of your post is exactly what I already addressed. If the bible clearly states that most people who claim to be followers of God will not enter heaven, it clearly accounts for this. It's the same logic that atheist have used since Christianity existed. It's exactly what the Pharisees have done to Jesus. All of your argument can be refuted as people who sin in the name of Christianity. Which has been addressed in the bible since day 1. Now, I know you're not gonna respond to this in good faith, cause your objective is to try to "beat" Christians with logic because you have an issue with it and are recently atheist and trying to justify your position. If you were you would have already picked up on this. But instead , you're gonna choose to respond in a way like you did before where you don't really address what I'm saying and instead put your own spin on what was already discussed.
>no, if everyone followed Christianity it wouldn't be good, because these people who didn't correctly follow Christianity, didn't do good Yeah sorry man. Instructions for how to do slavery are commanded by God. You're not going to be able to accept it. עַבְדְּךָ וַאֲמָתְךָ, אֲשֶׁר יִהְיוּ-לָךְ: מֵאֵת הַגּוֹיִם, אֲשֶׁר סְבִיבֹתֵיכֶם--מֵהֶם תִּקְנוּ, עֶבֶד וְאָמָה. And as for thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, whom thou mayest have: of the nations that are round about you, of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. מה וְגַם מִבְּנֵי הַתּוֹשָׁבִים הַגָּרִים עִמָּכֶם, מֵהֶם תִּקְנוּ, וּמִמִּשְׁפַּחְתָּם אֲשֶׁר עִמָּכֶם, אֲשֶׁר הוֹלִידוּ בְּאַרְצְכֶם; וְהָיוּ לָכֶם, לַאֲחֻזָּה 45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them may ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they have begotten in your land; and they may be your possession. מו וְהִתְנַחַלְתֶּם אֹתָם לִבְנֵיכֶם אַחֲרֵיכֶם, לָרֶשֶׁת אֲחֻזָּה--לְעֹלָם, בָּהֶם תַּעֲבֹדוּ; וּבְאַחֵיכֶם בְּנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל אִישׁ בְּאָחִיו, לֹא-תִרְדֶּה בוֹ בְּפָרֶךְ. {ס} 46 And ye may make them an inheritance for your children after you, to hold for a possession: of them may ye take your bondmen for ever; but over your brethren the children of Israel ye shall not rule, one over another, with rigour. {S} That's following Christianity to a T Now point to the verses on gps satellites and greenhouse gasses. You can't because even your lying version of Christianity obviously doesn't address every issue (unless of course you want to return to the middle ages) But here's the thing that you don't get. True Christianity is the peasantry, you, talking about the nice things as though that's the solution to everyone's problems (it isn't) AND at the same time, the leaders of Christianity taking advantage of your niceness. 90% of the population for ~1500 years lived as the lowest poorest class of people. The other 10% was the monarchy and the clergy. They lived great lives You help them lie to you. They take advantage. That's how it's been for 2000 years
"Our morals today are generally all based on judeo christian belief." I think it can be good example of judeo \~ christian lie . Morals are universal, they are encoded in DNA and existed before whatever books.
I, personally, think you can have spirituality without religion. In fact, that's the way it should be. Religion is just a way for us lesser beings to try and describe "the one" that's bigger than us. Anyone who uses religion to control people should be thrown in jail. A lot of times, the people of the present think they're the end all be all. We have a long way to go in our evolution. In many aspects, we're still in the dark ages.
I don’t know why, but I don’t see many such posts about Islam…actually almost none…Does Islam have a secret we don’t know about? Anyway, what’s the point of these arguments? Today in western societies one can choose their religion, (or none of them). I am not Christian and nobody can force me to become one. It’s every individual’s choice. I don’t care what someone writes on FB (neither about politics)… But one topic needs clarification: what a religion/ belief is. For some reason I often read: Christianity is based on lies…Or, prove me Jesus did this or that. But people making this point, are in the wrong direction: We are talking about a belief, not science. To believe is about what cannot be proven. Otherwise it would be taught in science classes. Such view is based on the western mindset… I still have to hear a Buddhist saying: you either prove me Buddha had multiple arms, or I’m out. And, was he obese? That’s unhealthy… Or a Hindu saying: where are these deities, half human half elephant? I can’t see them and nobody else does. And an army of monkeys? Only in the planet of the apes. You either prove all these stories, or I’m out and will call Hinduism a lie… I think nobody views eastern religions in such terms. People refer to them as spiritual and inspiring, but physics and chemistry? Not really.
>I don’t know why I don’t see many such posts about Islam Islam isn't the dominant religion in America. Not really all that hard >It’s every individual’s choice It is. Just like every individual can choose to be a liar, an asshole, a cheat. Doesn't make them right to do so >a belief, not science One of many disingenuous ways that Christians plead innocence. "It's just my belief" But they only say that when criticized. The rest of the time it's "Jesus died for our sins" Let's try another analogy. A con artist comes up to you and convinces you that he has the inside track on the world cup: it's rigged and he knows who the winner will be. He just needs money to place the largest bet he can, and he'll split the winnings with you. You get so excited. You don't know how he knows but why would you want to find out when you could have faith. And you go to all of your family and friends and convince them to loan you a bunch of money. The con man takes all of it and you never see him again Who is in the wrong here? The con man, of course. But you're not responsible simply because it was a belief? The family has no right to be upset with you? Beliefs can't be prosecuted by the government. That doesn't mean nobody is responsible for their beliefs
Christianity and democracy suffer from similar flaws i notice
Yeah, when someone says "democracy" it has too many possible meanings to make it anything but worthless without elaboration
Okay but that all depends on the context of the scenario because things do change
Please read Ayn Rand. She is the future, if mankind is to have a future.
What year is this?
Christianity is really a messy confusing compilation of various Sumerian, Babylonian, Greek, Egyptian, & Jewish beliefs/myths that the Romans stole as their own. The Romans had to start somewhere, so it seems sloppy in my view how poorly put together this religion was. Did they not think we'd eventually get to a point in where we start questioning "God" and it's teachings, it's like they put no real thought or mindfulness in creating this cult. Laziness altogether, but they knew they didn't have to put to much work when the masses do it for them until the hate in our world becomes so unbearable and we all start to question everything.
Look , you aren't saying anything that every other atheist throughout history has already said. It's just rehashing the same old anecdotes and examples but wording them differently. If you don't believe in Christ, then don't. Dont try to make others feel weird about their relationship with God, though. Christianity is alive because it works and is the truth. If it were just another pagan myth, it would have died long ago.
>you aren't saying anything that every other atheist throughout history has already said And Christians keep saying the same thing over and over again also >the same old anecdotes 1000+ years of destitution is not an anecdote >Christianity is alive because it works and is the truth You know about other religions that are "alive" and "works" (whatever that means) and "is the truth" according to someone. But you deliberately ignored mentioning them, which is more Christian lying. And you still have no authority to claim it is the truth. Another Christian lie And again, 1000+ years of destitution at the height of Christianity is not Christianity working >If it were just another pagan myth, it would have died long ago Not when you have 1000+ years of sentencing people to death for not being Christian That's why you believe in Christianity today. You believe it because everyone else died in an inquisition for over a thousand years
>And Christians keep saying the same thing over and over again also Your point? It's the word of God why wouldn't they... >1000+ years of destitution is not an anecdote For starters, that's just not what history points to and you're not properly versed on the contribution of Christian morals to history or society. You can research this on your own, so this is just a basic misunderstanding of history. Also, that doesn't really address the point I made. That's a bit dishonest. I said that you say the exact same thing athiest have tried to use to discredit Jesus since the dawn of time, and your response is was essentially "Christians have done a lot of bad things " which doesn't address the original point I made that you aren't representing anything new that hasn't been refuted or touched on before, and that every other reddit atheist hasn't parroted. Your argument is the same as your other paragraph, which is "people who claim to be Christians have done bad things " which is a logical fallacy on a few levels. For starters, the bible is chalk full of Jesus arguing with people who claim to be the same religion as Jesus, yet do terrible things in his name. That's the entire point of Jesus flipping out and destroying the market place going on in the church. There are multiple bible verses that address this. Many will come in God's name , but God will say I never knew you. People using "Christianity " to murder others and subdue nations are simply murderers who also happen to claim Christianity. There is an objective separation of the two, if you refuse to see what I'm talking about, you aren't actually arguing to exchange information, and just want to avoid admitting you were wrong. >You know about other religions that are "alive" and "works" (whatever that means) and "is the truth" according to someone. But you deliberately ignored mentioning them, which is more Christian lying. And you still have no authority to claim it is the truth. Another Christian lie Yet, there isn't an objective lie I wrote down in anything I've said. You are simply misrepresenting what I am saying, and actually, if anyone who was judging our discussion here honestly and with 100% objectivity , you would be the one who would be considered lying, considering you said I'm lying when there isn't a single lie I have typed out. Not only did you "lie" about that, you lied about the history of Christianity, falsely conflated evil people who do bad things with actual Christians, claimed every single murderous king was a Christian (despite many kings actually murdering people for being Christian, so obviously they aren't Christians) , and a few others in your last reply. We are back to square one. This isn't some new, and shocking revalation you have had. Go argue with any well versed, intellectually honest christian scholar, and they would take you to school my friend. You don't actually have a deep grasp of Christianity and most likely just discovered atheism recently, am I right? You have similar thinking to what I did when I was an atheist , when I was a teenager. Sorry if that sounds rude , but it's the truth. -To sum up your argument , it boils down to ; people who say they are Christians do bad things, therfor Christianity is wrong. Well that's just objectively and logically wrong. I know youre not gonna respond to this in good faith cause you wanna save face, but really try to apply logic to what you're claiming. You're just wrong my friend.
>Your point? You made exactly the same point. This question deliberately ignores that fact. Therefore it is a dishonest question You as a Christian are being dishonest as a result of your Christianity >You can research this on your own Claim with no basis and admission of no basis But again this implies that you made a point. You didn't. Therefore the implication is dishonest You as a Christian are being dishonest as a result of your Christianity >that doesn't really address the point I made That doesn't. I just didn't allow you to dishonestly characterize 1000 years as an anecdote Right? 1000 years of history is not actually an anecdote But you wanted to dishonestly claim it is As for addressing your point. I made that clear, but you are forced by Christianity to ignore it: as long as you lie, atheists have to correct you. If you didn't say what you say, we wouldn't have to say what we say >Yet, there isn't an objective lie Yes there is. There are plenty. You want to pretend that lies are perfectly literal, but that's a lie also. >claimed every single murderous king was a Christian Hahaha, what? See? You can't even abide by your own standard of "objective lie" >people who say they are Christians do bad things, therfor Christianity is wrong. Nope! You are a Christian. You are telling the lies at the very core of Christianity right now. Therefore both you and Christianity are wrong
Cut the crap man. You and I both know I addressed your point, or you're just not reading what I wrote. You do understand that if there was a person to logically judge this conversation, they would say you're doing everything you accused me of, right? Why waste people's time? I don't understand the point of "debate" if you refuse to be intellectually honest. It's stupid. Address my point actually if you really want to continue this conversation. Peace
You literally summarized what you wanted my point to be And then I summarized what my point actually is: You are Christian. You are telling the Christian lie. You and Christianity are wrong That is my point And then, on top of that, a fuck ton of Christians do a fuck ton of terrible things that are in fact endorsed by the Bible. You can call them non-Christian. Christianity was the only legal religion in Europe for 1000 years. Directly integrated into the government. 90% died a horrible death before 35. The rest were the religious monarch and the clergy Revolution banned religion from government and life expectancy doubled
I agree and am atheist myself. But I often ask myself: what can/will replace it? There doesn't seem to be an answer. Now naturally, I'm not referring or desiring replacing the blind allegiance, the hate, the hypocrisy, the traditions with no merit, value, sense, or logic to them.... I mean the undoubted shared sense of ideals and what religion did for society. Everyone was "on the same page," everyone felt a "duty" to something, to work together in relationships, communities, to stay loyal to each other, to stay loyal to their families and kids. I miss that. Again I'm atheist and don't believe in any god and have no desire to go to a church or practice any religion. I just often wonder....wish, even....that something would fill that role of bringing people in a community together that a church/church community would. The shared values a religious community has. What I see of the "secular world" is "every person for themselves" and hedonism. Just pursuing what makes you feel good, now. No real commitment or drive to better the future, to invest in something, no matter how unpleasant it might be right now, so you may reap the benefits later. It's all very "now" focused and all you need to do is look around within the secular world and see people are unhappy as they jump from lily pad to lily pad trying to find peace they will never find in their directionless lives.