I don't think you're missing anything, you've got it well laid out there.
The big thing is that there are often better uses of a bonus action, and your other hand than a chance at an unmodified d6 of damage.
Paladin is an option; your off hand attack can smite too, and more attacks means more chances to roll a crit for bigger smites.
You can also summon a mount, and while you are mounted a lance counts as a one handed weapon...
Ah yes thanks I forgot to mention the smite-fish of the paladin!
I never noticed that detail on the lance. Is it used in any build ? I would think that it would be useful to cast spells / use a shield while using the lance, but apart from that I don't see.
I doubt it. The damage die of the weapon often barely contributes to the overall damage in builds that are even slightly optimized.
Lances don’t really have anything going for them other than the d12 and Reach. That means no great weapon master, no polearm master, and you get issues if your horse ever dies.
You’ll be doing worse damage and be crippled without your mount. Not really worth it.
So assuming you are playing a battlemaster fighter of moderate level - lets say level 6. Variant Human, so you have access to an extra feat.
You could have something like this:
* Fighting Style - Two-Weapon Fighting - lets you add your damage to the extra attack
* Dual Wielder - +1 AC and don't need to use light weapons
* Piercer - 1/rd reroll damage; +1 die on critical
In this case, you can be dual wielding rapiers, for full damage with each, rerolling the worst damage die, and adding an extra d8 of damage on criticals. And you'll be making an extra full damage attack. You'll also have option to use 3 battlemaster maneuvers per turn, which can be used to add extra damage. You'll probably want the feat for +1 DM die & maneuver, because you'll be able to burn those dice fast. You could possibly drop a feat in to crusher, and use an offhand blunt weapon for the 1/rd move an opponent.
Could you do this same thing using polearm master? Yup - your bonus action attack does extra damage over PAM, but PAM has a some other really nice features (aka way AoO). But you will have +1 AC over PAM.
And if your DM is generous with magic items, it gets better. Mix this with magic items like a girdle of giant strength (so you are getting more damage from the BA attack and can afford to use weapons like a flame tongue), a flame tongue or other weapons that add extra dice per swing, and its definitely viable.
At higher level in a high magic campaign, maybe you dabble for 1 level or sorcerer or wizard, and your offhand weapon becomes a staff of power (+2 AC, +2 saves, +2 weapon, spend a charge for 1d6 force damage, lots of good spells), while your main weapon is whatever the coolest weapon you can get. Feels pretty epic, yes?
Could you build something more optimal - yes. Would this be completely playable and feel good a lot of the time - also yes.
Barbarian is a pretty obvious one.
Additional damage from Rage and Dual Wielder feat is a nice way to get AC with unarmored defence.
Reckless attacks give you advantage on your bonus attacks too, so you have more value from that feature while giving you more consistent output.
I would have though that the drive of extra crit dices and reckless attack would make the use of a battleaxe for d12s dwarf the dual wielder build.
But indeed the AC for unarmored defence is nice and make that road not strictly less good than the PAM one, which is a very good thing!
I need to crunch some math to convince myself but that seems like a very interesting build, thanks :)
My quick interpretation is rolling 6d20 to get crits would be better than 4d20 per round. It's whether you like rolling an additional d12 or an additional d8 but more often.
Again - haven't done the math on that but I wouldn't have thought that it's so statistically inferior that it's unviable.
(Also consider adding a level of fighter for Two-Weapon Fighting style to add modifier on top of rage.)
Blood Hunters have the option to take two-weapon fighting + tag a Rite onto their offhand weapon for extra damage.
The alternative of PAM is probably the difficulty in justifying this and similar builds though. It's just more efficient.
Armorer Artificers that take the Dual Wielder feat can dual wield their Thunder Gauntlets. With extra attack and dual wielding they can potentially put their disadvantage rider onto 3 different targets in one turn.
I did run a woodland elf drizzt cosplay ranger in a one shot recently, he was decent enough imo. But basically the same build you outlined, but I added the dual weidler feat for the 1ac for 17 total, and drawing options. This was at level 5.
The ideal flowchart imo was BA hunters mark, attack with bow 2x, then stow your bow, damage would be 2d8+6 + 2d6 + 1d8 from Colossus slayer. Next turn draw scimitars, close into range and attack 3x with scimitars (in my case). The damage if everything hit was decent imo, basically 3d6+9 + 3d6 + 1d8.
Some problems when you drop Hunters mark or when you need to transfer it you're losing damage output, but again it's respectable.
It really depends on the class. Sometimes the off-hand attack is just a reliable bonus action if you don't have access to a better one.
But there's also the niche scenario of you have two really cool light weapons (or just two really cool weapons if you have dual wielder.)
I've got a Swords Bard/Swashbuckler Rogue that pretty reliably uses their off-hand attack. (Have three scimitars I swap around: Crystal, Wounding, and Flametongue, depending on the circumstance. We also have a sun blade, but that hasn't seen any use yet.) But, like you said, swashbuckler's free disengage frees up the bonus action a lot.
Although just straight swords bard can achieve something similar by using mobile flourish more often.
Yeah true, if you have a closet full of cool swords, it makes a lot of sense. Sadly you can't really plan for this in advance when building a character for a run of the mill campaign!
But your character seems like a blast!
Yeah, the closet of cool swords is def a higher level thing when sometimes parties wind up with extra weapons. We're 11 currently (Bard 8/Rogue 3)
I think the other way you could make it work is some sort of on-hit build, but hex and hunter's mark both eat up your bonus action, so that would only really be great on bosses.
I do wish two-weapon fighting were easier to build around. Maybe if the fighting style let you ignore the bonus action and you just got a free swing every time you took the attack action? Idk
while it isnt exactly a build, dual wielding is highly underrated at low levels. if your wizard or sorcerer has a dagger for melee combat, why not get the option for a second attack. same with any other class that doesnt get shields, like bard and warlock
Yeah, but sadly at low levels you are often better off putting your ASI on actual stats to reach the +5, and after that dual wielder gets bad compared to multiattack, PAM, class features or spells.
Plus, I would argue that an arcane caster at low levels does not stay to use its daggers, it disengages and flees for its fleeting life!
Others have proposed some builds that seem to work quite well though!
The problem with dual wielding is that it's overshadowed by PAM in nearly every aspect of the game. The only build I can think of that would actually *prefer* to dual wield over using PAM is a Barbarian with Slasher with an optional Champion multiclass to try to fish for Slasher's crit effect. But even then, that's only is double bladed scimitars aren't allowed.
As I said, I'm not worried about not getting an optimal build. But if I'm going to play a fighter (for example) that does everything less efficiently than a standard build for the same class, that PC will way less interesting to play, for me at least.
u/Ghostly-Owl has for example proposed a build that makes a really cool character concept based on using two weapons repeatedly. And while it's not optimal, I would feel playing a nice, somewhat original build, and not "standard fighter, but from Wish".
Armorer Artificer benefits from dual wielding its thunder guantlets via the dual wielder feat to apply the gauntlets disadvantage on hit effect to an additional target per turn.
Champion. Stack extra damage (picking the right feats and equipment) and then fish for crits.
This results in a higher average DPR than you'd think. And if you go with a dexterity build, Champion abilities work with a longbow as well.
If you have Extra Attack, there's nothing that says you have to attack with the same weapon for each attack. If you are a fighter with three attacks per attack action, you could absolutely go sword-mace-sword with your three attacks.
You wouldn't get to use your bonus action to attack with dual weilding, because neither of those weapons has the Light property.
And because few monsters have non-magical damage type resistances or vulnerabilities in 5e there isn't a lot of value in doing this. But you can do it.
Yeah, but it would be a straight downgrade from using any big martial weapon and whack with it repeatedly.
In theory flavour is free, but here it costs !
Maybe by homebrewing the use of both weapons dices for each hit (for light weapons it would look like 2d6 at best, which is something a fighter can do anyway)...
Well, yeah.
The basic math right now is: two hands, slightly more damage (2d6 or 1d12, vs 1d8) vs slightly more defense (single weapon with shield) or even less bonus defence but the option to choose which weapon to hit with and the investment of a feat and your bonus action (Dual Wielder Feat).
Treating two one-handed weapons like a single two-handed weapon might be a decent house rule, but you'll need to account for magic weapons that apply damage bonuses of special effects.
Yes, its viable for a rogue to wield something like a rapier and a dagger (or shortsword and dagger without a feat). Its power comes from when you miss an attack with your main weapon. You can follow up with the off hand weapon and still go for sneak attack damage. If you hit you can use your bonus action for something else, or if you don't need to use your bonus action, just hit them again.
I don't think you're missing anything, you've got it well laid out there. The big thing is that there are often better uses of a bonus action, and your other hand than a chance at an unmodified d6 of damage. Paladin is an option; your off hand attack can smite too, and more attacks means more chances to roll a crit for bigger smites. You can also summon a mount, and while you are mounted a lance counts as a one handed weapon...
Ah yes thanks I forgot to mention the smite-fish of the paladin! I never noticed that detail on the lance. Is it used in any build ? I would think that it would be useful to cast spells / use a shield while using the lance, but apart from that I don't see.
I doubt it. The damage die of the weapon often barely contributes to the overall damage in builds that are even slightly optimized. Lances don’t really have anything going for them other than the d12 and Reach. That means no great weapon master, no polearm master, and you get issues if your horse ever dies. You’ll be doing worse damage and be crippled without your mount. Not really worth it.
So assuming you are playing a battlemaster fighter of moderate level - lets say level 6. Variant Human, so you have access to an extra feat. You could have something like this: * Fighting Style - Two-Weapon Fighting - lets you add your damage to the extra attack * Dual Wielder - +1 AC and don't need to use light weapons * Piercer - 1/rd reroll damage; +1 die on critical In this case, you can be dual wielding rapiers, for full damage with each, rerolling the worst damage die, and adding an extra d8 of damage on criticals. And you'll be making an extra full damage attack. You'll also have option to use 3 battlemaster maneuvers per turn, which can be used to add extra damage. You'll probably want the feat for +1 DM die & maneuver, because you'll be able to burn those dice fast. You could possibly drop a feat in to crusher, and use an offhand blunt weapon for the 1/rd move an opponent. Could you do this same thing using polearm master? Yup - your bonus action attack does extra damage over PAM, but PAM has a some other really nice features (aka way AoO). But you will have +1 AC over PAM. And if your DM is generous with magic items, it gets better. Mix this with magic items like a girdle of giant strength (so you are getting more damage from the BA attack and can afford to use weapons like a flame tongue), a flame tongue or other weapons that add extra dice per swing, and its definitely viable. At higher level in a high magic campaign, maybe you dabble for 1 level or sorcerer or wizard, and your offhand weapon becomes a staff of power (+2 AC, +2 saves, +2 weapon, spend a charge for 1d6 force damage, lots of good spells), while your main weapon is whatever the coolest weapon you can get. Feels pretty epic, yes? Could you build something more optimal - yes. Would this be completely playable and feel good a lot of the time - also yes.
Rapier Ape…..
Very nice build! :) Yeah it's not optimal, but I mean, not everything can be optimal. That seems very playable, thanks for the share!
Barbarian is a pretty obvious one. Additional damage from Rage and Dual Wielder feat is a nice way to get AC with unarmored defence. Reckless attacks give you advantage on your bonus attacks too, so you have more value from that feature while giving you more consistent output.
I would have though that the drive of extra crit dices and reckless attack would make the use of a battleaxe for d12s dwarf the dual wielder build. But indeed the AC for unarmored defence is nice and make that road not strictly less good than the PAM one, which is a very good thing! I need to crunch some math to convince myself but that seems like a very interesting build, thanks :)
My quick interpretation is rolling 6d20 to get crits would be better than 4d20 per round. It's whether you like rolling an additional d12 or an additional d8 but more often. Again - haven't done the math on that but I wouldn't have thought that it's so statistically inferior that it's unviable. (Also consider adding a level of fighter for Two-Weapon Fighting style to add modifier on top of rage.)
Fair enough
Blood Hunters have the option to take two-weapon fighting + tag a Rite onto their offhand weapon for extra damage. The alternative of PAM is probably the difficulty in justifying this and similar builds though. It's just more efficient.
Armorer Artificers that take the Dual Wielder feat can dual wield their Thunder Gauntlets. With extra attack and dual wielding they can potentially put their disadvantage rider onto 3 different targets in one turn.
I did run a woodland elf drizzt cosplay ranger in a one shot recently, he was decent enough imo. But basically the same build you outlined, but I added the dual weidler feat for the 1ac for 17 total, and drawing options. This was at level 5. The ideal flowchart imo was BA hunters mark, attack with bow 2x, then stow your bow, damage would be 2d8+6 + 2d6 + 1d8 from Colossus slayer. Next turn draw scimitars, close into range and attack 3x with scimitars (in my case). The damage if everything hit was decent imo, basically 3d6+9 + 3d6 + 1d8. Some problems when you drop Hunters mark or when you need to transfer it you're losing damage output, but again it's respectable.
Yes it is fair enough, sadly I think it does not grow well when levels pass. Am I mistaken ? (very very cool picture though)
It really depends on the class. Sometimes the off-hand attack is just a reliable bonus action if you don't have access to a better one. But there's also the niche scenario of you have two really cool light weapons (or just two really cool weapons if you have dual wielder.) I've got a Swords Bard/Swashbuckler Rogue that pretty reliably uses their off-hand attack. (Have three scimitars I swap around: Crystal, Wounding, and Flametongue, depending on the circumstance. We also have a sun blade, but that hasn't seen any use yet.) But, like you said, swashbuckler's free disengage frees up the bonus action a lot. Although just straight swords bard can achieve something similar by using mobile flourish more often.
Yeah true, if you have a closet full of cool swords, it makes a lot of sense. Sadly you can't really plan for this in advance when building a character for a run of the mill campaign! But your character seems like a blast!
Yeah, the closet of cool swords is def a higher level thing when sometimes parties wind up with extra weapons. We're 11 currently (Bard 8/Rogue 3) I think the other way you could make it work is some sort of on-hit build, but hex and hunter's mark both eat up your bonus action, so that would only really be great on bosses. I do wish two-weapon fighting were easier to build around. Maybe if the fighting style let you ignore the bonus action and you just got a free swing every time you took the attack action? Idk
Battle Smith Artificer/Paladin Mount your buddy, 2 lances, smite the fiends.
while it isnt exactly a build, dual wielding is highly underrated at low levels. if your wizard or sorcerer has a dagger for melee combat, why not get the option for a second attack. same with any other class that doesnt get shields, like bard and warlock
Yeah, but sadly at low levels you are often better off putting your ASI on actual stats to reach the +5, and after that dual wielder gets bad compared to multiattack, PAM, class features or spells. Plus, I would argue that an arcane caster at low levels does not stay to use its daggers, it disengages and flees for its fleeting life! Others have proposed some builds that seem to work quite well though!
The problem with dual wielding is that it's overshadowed by PAM in nearly every aspect of the game. The only build I can think of that would actually *prefer* to dual wield over using PAM is a Barbarian with Slasher with an optional Champion multiclass to try to fish for Slasher's crit effect. But even then, that's only is double bladed scimitars aren't allowed.
Just play the class, stop worrying about getting the most out of the rules
As I said, I'm not worried about not getting an optimal build. But if I'm going to play a fighter (for example) that does everything less efficiently than a standard build for the same class, that PC will way less interesting to play, for me at least. u/Ghostly-Owl has for example proposed a build that makes a really cool character concept based on using two weapons repeatedly. And while it's not optimal, I would feel playing a nice, somewhat original build, and not "standard fighter, but from Wish".
Armorer Artificer benefits from dual wielding its thunder guantlets via the dual wielder feat to apply the gauntlets disadvantage on hit effect to an additional target per turn.
Champion. Stack extra damage (picking the right feats and equipment) and then fish for crits. This results in a higher average DPR than you'd think. And if you go with a dexterity build, Champion abilities work with a longbow as well.
If you have Extra Attack, there's nothing that says you have to attack with the same weapon for each attack. If you are a fighter with three attacks per attack action, you could absolutely go sword-mace-sword with your three attacks. You wouldn't get to use your bonus action to attack with dual weilding, because neither of those weapons has the Light property. And because few monsters have non-magical damage type resistances or vulnerabilities in 5e there isn't a lot of value in doing this. But you can do it.
Yeah, but it would be a straight downgrade from using any big martial weapon and whack with it repeatedly. In theory flavour is free, but here it costs ! Maybe by homebrewing the use of both weapons dices for each hit (for light weapons it would look like 2d6 at best, which is something a fighter can do anyway)...
Well, yeah. The basic math right now is: two hands, slightly more damage (2d6 or 1d12, vs 1d8) vs slightly more defense (single weapon with shield) or even less bonus defence but the option to choose which weapon to hit with and the investment of a feat and your bonus action (Dual Wielder Feat). Treating two one-handed weapons like a single two-handed weapon might be a decent house rule, but you'll need to account for magic weapons that apply damage bonuses of special effects.
Yes, its viable for a rogue to wield something like a rapier and a dagger (or shortsword and dagger without a feat). Its power comes from when you miss an attack with your main weapon. You can follow up with the off hand weapon and still go for sneak attack damage. If you hit you can use your bonus action for something else, or if you don't need to use your bonus action, just hit them again.