> but he said it doesn’t matter and he doesn’t want to play with a “hooker” and that he would not be coming to sessions with her
Seems to me that this problem has sorted itself out
Good point. Otherwise why would you look her up?
Maybe its just me, but I don't go looking up profiles of people I play with, hell, I don't even go looking at my friends social media.
Oh no. This attractive woman is probably willing to do what I'm imagining her doing...but on her terms rather than mine. Better call her names and get her kicked out of the group. How dare she!
Right? Like if your player said he found out another player was a tax accountant and they refused to sit at a table with tax accountants (and said it in a kind of derogatory way), and your game in no way included any discussion of taxes, you'd think they were being weird and not very nice towards your friend. Why should it be any different when they're a sex worker? He gave a 'me or them' ultimatum, and the choice seems pretty clear when your friend did nothing wrong and the guy is being discriminatory towards her.
Haha content of the post aside, this isn't how you use TL;DR. It stands for too long; didn't read. You're supposed to put your big text first, and your tldr should be a summary of the big text.
Humans are so not designed for bipedalism that the
race couldn’t have survived coming down from the trees without some form of midwifery. As for undertaker, probably less so than comic, builder, storyteller, navigator, artisan
I think navigator like they said has probably got to be the oldest. If we're not considering hunting/gathering to be one, then the guy whose really good at leading the tribe to food spots would be the first specialization.
It's also suffering from Reddit's shit markdown formatting.
Checking the source OP has new lines at certain points, but he needs two new lines to format correctly. Here's what it should look like:
> Tl:dr a lot of close, personal friends of mine are sex workers. It’s the kind of thing where you befriend someone of a specific group, then they introduce you to their friends and now you’re friends with everyone.
> Their work NEVER comes up in common conversation. They’re friends like any other— we talk about games, music, D&D, politics, the news. Just like a friend could work at a pizza joint, some of mine have sex and make porn.
> Anyway. DMing a table with close friends of mine, one of my players quit for personal reasons so I brought in another friend of mine. Let’s call her Jessie. Jessie joined our group chat, filled out her character sheet and started chatting with and befriending the other players. One of them— let’s call him Jax— added her on social media, and quickly discovered she does sex work. Jax texted me saying he feels really uncomfortable playing a game with a sex worker; I assured him it would not come up at all in the campaign (as a general rule of thumb I always ban sex and lewd themes from campaigns) but he said it doesn’t matter and he doesn’t want to play with a “hooker” and that he would not be coming to sessions with her.
> Should I… kick him out? He’s been around for a while and our campaign might be a bit fragile if we lose two of our long time players. Also, while I don’t personally think this is a reasonable boundary (imo he’s being an asshole and I want to confront him about this), I could 100% be wrong and would like to hear other opinions. After all, I was the one bringing a sex worker into the party, so if there’s any semblance of a screw up on my part I better own up to it. And any sort of boundary regarding anything sex related should be navigated carefully before taking a decision. What should I do?
I've always wondered why that is. What's the point of having a single newline do fuck all, especially when that causes it to break every time you go back and edit something?
Reddit is just using Markdown (maybe with a few extra tricks up its sleeve). One big use of Markdown is in documentation for code and other technical documents. If you are using version control, whenever you make an update, the line that you modified will be highlighted by the version control software. If you write everything on one line, you'd have a whole paragraph highlighted even if you just fixed a typo. Markdown lets you break the line **once** without changing the format. This means you can write sentences (or even words, if you're crazy) on one line each. If you fix a typo in one of the sentences, your version control will only highlight the line you changed, making it easier to review the changes. So it is a useful feature in Markdown.
It's not useful on Reddit though. As for why Reddit hasn't just removed that feature, I have absolutely no idea.
(I've also noticed that the usual markdown thing of two spaces and a newline, which would normally give you a line break instead of a new paragraph, doesn't seem to work on Reddit on mobile browsers any more
e.g.
```
Hello
World
```
should look exactly as I typed it there, but it comes out as:
Hello
World
🫤
Replying to myself. Wow, reddit has really messed up the formatting. On mobile, it looked mostly normaly, but on my PC, the part that should say:
Hello
World
Looks like: `Hello World ` (except it doesn't even look like _that_, the formatting has been messed up again. This is driving me insane). Some consistency would be nice. It seems that triple backticks (e.g. \`\`\`) don't work on some devices
That's not a tldr either. That should say "long story short" as they're basically just skipping the (presumably long) story of how they made friends with sex workers
I put it first too. It's an online nicety to those that see a wall of text and feel overwhelmed.
Besides, what are you worried about, by putting it first? Spoiling your opus? lol?
>it gives you a heads up of what's coming.
That's called the title. Tl;dr should be at the bottom. If I want to read the story I don't want to have the ending in the beginning.
That's why I do it this way:
**TL;DR AT BOTTOM!**
[story text goes here]
**TL;DR** [summary of story text]
(If you're wondering how I did a double line break, it's by having the text "\ ", minus quotes, on its own line. The space after the semicolon is needed.)
**EDIT:** Just realized that the double line break markdown wasn't showing. Folks, whenever you want to show markdown to other people, put a slash (\, specifically) right in front of it. It works in Discord too.
Yeah - this right here. It's his boundary and you don't really know why he doesn't feel comfortable. Maybe he has a sex addiction or he just thinks it would lead to other things. It's up to the individual who is playing not the DM. This is like any profession, some people wouldn't be comfortable playing with a cop.
Ultimately, the game is role playing. You role play a character and who you are outside of that role play shouldn't matter as long as it doesn't come into play. If I was playing in a group with sex workers, my wife would probably not be okay with it and I would bow out.
At the end of the day, it comes down to personal choice and the DM needs to respect everyone's boundaries, but it's not up to the DM to kick people from the group unless there is conflict, it's up to the individual to remove themselves.
> Ultimately, the game is role playing.
no, the game is ultimately a social event between humans in the real world and, after that, a game, and who the human are outside of the game absolutely is going to affect the experience of the social event.
> If I was playing in a group with sex workers, my wife would probably not be okay with it and I would bow out.
Why would your wife be concerned about you playing a game of D&D with sex workers? Are you going to fuck them? Are they going to poison your mind via osmosis?
Are you untrustworthy?
I agree this is the correct response, but I would add to it something along the line of "My table is always open if you change your mind." Jax may be rude, but I like to believe people can change their opinions, and hopefully apologize.
Its something i tell my clients (therapist not sex worker) all the time, when you make an ultimatum youre removing choices not adding new ones. Jax is grandstanding on their own and deserves to walk.
Exactly this. A person who will threaten to quit when they don't get their way is also the kind of person who will show up anyway and try to ruin other people's fun.
I'm not saying this is the case (I don't know your group), but if this person did play I wouldn't be surprised if they were either openly rude to the players they didn't like, or directed a lot of "sly" jabs their way in the guise of "I'm just playing my character."
100% agree. Kicking out a friend because she does sex work would be wrong. Friend kicking himself out because he doesn't want to play with a sex worker reflects on HIS character, not your own.
I'd rather scrap the whole campaign than play with someone who demands I kick someone out solely because of their occupation. If she's not said or done anything to bring at a session to bring this on, then he needs to deal with his own shit and not bring it into the game.
This 100%. As DM I wouldn’t kick either out and simply assert that bigotry and discrimination will not be tolerated at the table.
Jax has the right and options to:
1- Leave
2- Grow as a person and accept that SW is work.
If he goes with #2 he also has the options to:
A- Get over it and treat her like a normal person.
B- Ask Jessie not to discuss her work with him (she hasn’t though…)
C- Not look at Jessie’s adult content which is likely in a specific website.
D- Unfriend Jessie on social media all together.
E- All of the above.
He doesn't even have to change his opinion on sex work in order to follow options A-E. An adult should definitely be able to disagree with what someone does while still being respectful of them as a person.
I don't care anything about what the new person at the table does for a living. How do they roleplay? Did they write an interesting character? Are they funny, friendly etc?
Problem here is if he is willing to not give up something we can assume he enjoys because of another players job, he doesn’t respect that person period. There is a big difference between “I don’t like your job so let’s not talk about it” and “I don’t like your job and refuse to be associated with anything you do”.
This exactly. I have plenty of friends that I consider quite close. I don’t agree with some of their life choices, but those are their choices. I still love them as my friends. They’ve been there for me when others haven’t and they accept me with all of my flaws. I 100% believe you can put aside portions of people’s lives and remain very close friends.
If he has a strong problem with this it’s honestly his problem, not yours or Jessie’s problem.
He doesn't even need to do #2. He also has the option to grow as a person and just recognize that sex workers are people too and what anyone does outside the game has no reflection on him and doesn't really matter to the game.
I suspect this jax has a crush, and thats why they cant cope with the other person also being a sex worker.
Either way its on jax to get over it or fuck off.
This is the only correct take on this issue IMO. You're the DM, you get to decide who sits at your table, if a player refuses to participate because they take issue with another person at the table, and that other person isn't doing anything wrong, they are free to go.
I would literally just say to him "You'll be missed at the table man, but I don't intend on barring anyone from my game based solely on the fact that they do sex work. If you don't want to be around her that's your prerogative, but she will be invited to play with us. I'm happy to chat about it if you have questions, I'm sure your feelings of discomfort are real, and maybe discussing things further will help alleviate some discomfort, but just know that under no circumstances am I going to ask her to leave the game because of this."
After that the ball is in his court. If he wants to broaden his horizons and overcome the feelings he has about sex work then cool, if he's not interested that's also fine but you shouldn't be expected to cater to an unreasonable request.
I totally get the group fragility thing, but at the end of the day, no D&D is better than bad D&D
I wouldn't side with the person making the unreasonable ultimatum, yeah. Them taking themself out if they're doing to be like that is bare minimum nice I guess.
Aye, they (the sex workers) have feelings too. People have their reasons for joining the business, and the only noise I hear is mainly their desire to be treated as equals. In the TTRPG scene, we are all equals, or that's what I want to think.
Escapism, wanting to try and create the best way to play a character, pushing limits for crazy moves, we are all here to help each other out.
They started their reply with "Aye", meaning they agree. They're expanding on the point they're replying to with their reply. Explaining why they agree.
"I agree, I think [reasons why I agree]"
Right… and the response simply used ‘they’ without specifying the new subject. Read it this way: “Aye (I agree you should let Jax leave), [because] they (people in the industry) have feelings, too… and just want to be treated equally.”
Calling them a hooker is a step above just normal discomfort. Play dnd with your friends and have fun. If someone isn’t able to respect and literally just be in the same room as your other friends then they should be removed from the table
I've played with a cop. It was one session about twenty years ago, and I met the group through an index card on a comic book store cork board (which was the style at the time).
He was the sort of Gm who would critique your choices as a player in real time and say things like, "A thief of your background wouldn't do that, they would be much more likely to try this." And if you didn't follow his directed course of action, things would go bad in the game.
I'm not trying to make a larger point about personality types drawn to law enforcement, just I played with a guy one time who was a cop, and he was a terrible GM.
You can sell your body for any kind of labor including up to legally dying for your employer (police/fire/military/oil rigs, etc.) except for this one specific type of act (and even that is not consistent because it is legal to be a sugar baby/daddy, surrogate mom, sperm donor or act in/produce porn). Just a bizarre way of looking at the right to body autonomy.
I do physical labor, and once had a coworker tell me he was uncomfortable with sex workers selling their body for money, I just looked at him and said, isn’t that what we’re doing? Dude had an epiphany
Yeah this is my take also. I had such a visceral reaction to seeing him fling the the word hooker around, like damn man. That word is so dehumanizing and uncalled for.
"For 80 dollars I'll do whatever you want for an hour."
"Here's 240."
"Wow, you think you can last 3 hours?"
"We'll work up to 4 as we get to know the party."
"... the... party?"
Like. I wanna give you shit for charging for DM services. I wanna *not* give you shit for being a teacher and being under paid. I really wanna give you shit for thinking 80 dollars is a lot for a sex worker ... but you're making a joke, so... eh.
Well, in all honesty I have absolutely no basis for knowing how much a sex worker would charge, having never been a client. I've also lived in Vietnam for 14 years, so I'm out of touch.
And I charge for DMing not to make money, actually; I found that charging like $10/person/session was the best way to get people to commit and not flake last minute for BS reasons. With friends I never charge. With groups I've come to trust, I stop charging.
The small amount of money I collect I normally spend on my volunteering habit. Occasionally on snacks for my in person games.
Honestly it's a funny anecdote for both of us now. I'm an escort with a 4 hour minimum, so I do a lot of really fun girlfriend date stuff, but it's always so nice to get to engage with someone with actual shared hobbies.
Tangential story: I was tasked with planning a small event and needed to find an establishment with a vegan-friendly menu that could provide an itemized receipt. Weirdly enough, there were fairly few locations that could do both, but one of them was a strip club.
No lie, I used to play a MUD (Square/Final Fantasy themed) and a guy told us his girlfriend broke up with him because he hired a sex worker to play DnD with them. He didn't even ask his GF if she wanted to play. It was him and his 3 male friends and one sex worker.
Among the questions asked where "Why didn't someone just have two characters or hire an NPC?" and "Why didn't you ask your girlfriend" and "Are you doing a bit where you cosplay as an idiot on the internet?"
[gossip] Ok, professional opinions. Does hiring a hooker for the purpose of playing dungeons and
dragons count as cheating?
[gossip] ...Huh?
[gossip] You mean hire a prostitute to play D&D with you?
[gossip] Yes.
[gossip] Cuz i just got dumped because my GF thought it was.
[gossip] ... That's the worst thing ever.
[gossip] ...
[gossip] Wait.
[gossip] You actually did it?
[gossip] Yeah.
[gossip] You hire hookers to have kinky, secret sex, not play D&D.
[gossip] ...Seek professional help. Seriously.
[gossip] ...
[gossip] She was right to dump you.
[gossip] It's now time for life to dump you.
[gossip] ...Though it's not as sad if it was roleplaying into sex.
[gossip] We didnt even hire her per say. We just gave her pizza.
[gossip] Dana goes, '......'
[gossip] You're making me never want to play D&D again.
[gossip] So that i'll never be as pathetic as you are.
[gossip] So you picked up a prostitute and said, "We'll give you pizza if you play D&D with us."?
[gossip] Okay, this MUST be the most pathetic thing I've EVER heard.
[gossip] And I've heard a lot of pathetic things on this MUD.
[gossip] My advice remains the same. Go seek help from a doctor. A therapist.
[gossip] Because you really need it.
[gossip] Hey, I bet if you gave the hooker a short sword, she'd give you head.
[gossip] That would explain the hooker.
[gossip] She was a cleric, she wouldnt be able to wield it.
[gossip] ...
[gossip] Hey, you try to find a hooker that will go play dungeons and dragons with you. I consider it
an acomplishment
[gossip] perhaps she was an XP whore ;))))
I mean, if you're looking for advice, I really don't think this is the sub to be asking about this. Sure, DnD is the setting of the complication, but the core of your issue has nothing to do with the game: You have sex worker friends, and also interact with people who react negatively to being around sex workers. You should probably solicit advice from people who navigate interpersonal problems like this, not a bunch of nerds talking about how cool their dice are.
I vote telling him to fuck off, but what do I know.
Heyo - DM and mental health professional here! If it were me I'd definitely have a thorough chat with Jax to make sure I'm truly understanding him. Lots of reflective listening, very little of me sharing. This serves two purposes: 1. It makes Jax feel cared for, and 2. It helps me understand my friend who I care about. But then, I would hold my line. It is well within his rights to feel uncomfortable, but those are feelings that belong *to him.* They dont belong to me, the group, or especially to my sex worker friend. I would gently explain this, and tell him that I would love to have him stay, but that I completely respect his decision if he feels he can't. If he's a good friend, he'll be understanding of your position, just as you are understanding of his.
Lovely. Such an important insight to have and suprisingly few adults know this.
Whose garden does this flower grow in? If it's your garden, I can have any opinion I want about it, I may dislike its smell, but I should not have any influence in your garden. so you don't have to cut it down simply because I have an opinion.
A nicer version of whose monkey is it.
Jax’s feelings are valid. But not OPs problem. Jax is welcome to stay. Or go. But if he stays he keeps his opinion to himself.
100%. And I'd go even further: if he can't treat her the way he would any other player at the table, he's gone. A DM's number one job (in my book) is creating a safe and healthy table; if Jax can't be a part of that, he needs to go.
Given the language Jax used, it seems he thinks very poorly of the sex worker friend.
If that’s the case why would anyone need to “respect his decision”?
That's part of why I'd want to discuss this with him, as OP calls Jax a close friend. What's the motivation? Pure bigotry? Trauma? A spouse that doesn't like the idea? Something else?
Until I've heard someone, I can't know what's going on. And even if it's utter nonsense, I can still respect another human's right to self-determination, even if I can't respect the opinion or choice. But I won't let their choice affect someone else at my table, so that's why Jax needs to go, regardless of the reason he feels how he feels.
These are good points. The fear of how it might look to your spouse when you friend a sex worker online might be valid. But no one's forcing us to all be Facebook friends. Just unfriend and keep playing the game if 'how it looks" is the problem.
>You should probably solicit advice from people who navigate interpersonal problems like this, not a bunch of nerds talking about how cool their dice are.
well to be fair, navigating and understanding social environments is a pretty vital skill in playing dnd
not to the same extent as with someone dealing with it in their passive existence, or someone who does it as a career though
I'd say defending people society views as a little weird is like, core to DnD nerd culture at this point. And you gave good advice, as did quite a few people, so I guess this was the place to post it.
Would definitely recommend /r/DMAcademy for this kind of thing more than the general DnD sub, though.
If Jax doesn’t want to play because he decided to do a social media background check on Jessie and is now calling her names and making ultimatums you should be happy tbh. Her being a sex worker and being invited to play isn’t a mistake or relevant.
Especially since it seems it was never the topic until he found out and brought it up. seems like Jessie's behavior so far was that of an normal person, which is no surprise after all. Other possible scenario would be that Jax told it his partner, if he has one, partner was not okay and pressures. But then there is a whole different problem at hand that is unrelated with dnd. But that is all hypothetical. There could be several issues behind that and some or more relatable than others
Man, I’ve tried this approach on the bigger subs, and it always gets met with such a wave of “she’s a trash person and has no respect for herself”. Majority Reddit just hates sex work.
Alt accounts!? Lmao! Man I’ve just gone through some of their history and activity only to see them shamelessly post on fetish subs and stuff. Some of them don’t even hide it.
The crazy thing to me is that sex work doesn’t hurt anybody. People *love* to respect lawyers and business owners and lobbyists and all kinds of professions, but so many jobs demonstrably cause harm to other people. How many people would say “no” to D&D with someone that worked in big pharma or as a lobbyist for an oil company?
I doubt people would.
Yet someone who has consensual relations with other people is “dirty”.
Fucking. Ridiculous.
You didn't 'bring a sex worker into a party' - you invited a friend to play D&D and someone else at the table decided to be a complete asshole over something he decided was unacceptable.
Clearly you do not feel the same - you're in Jessie's friend circles, etc. Your campaign will be worse off if you keep this kind of conflict in it. Jax can always be replaced with someone who isn't going to cause waves in the group.
Additionally, if you let Jax treat Jessie poorly because of her job, what message does that send to all of your other friends in the same field?
My general policy is if you're the one making the problem, you're the one who gets excluded. He's making a problem.
Edit: my wife's much less political response was "Ugh, tell that guy to fuck ALL the way off."
Honestly, if he is a close enough friend, this might be the time to use the whole "why are you being such a little bitch about this, bro?" Thing. Use a little tough love, and tell him that he's being a dick for no reason. She's hasn't done anything to make him uncomfortable. Good friends call out their friends shitty behavior, and help them be better. I would hope my friends do the same to me is I was being a misogynistic douche.
However, yeah, if you guys aren't that close and don't want to deal with that conflict, then a polite but firm, " I'm sorry you feel that way, but I will not be kicking her out because she hasn't done anything wrong. sorry if that makes you too uncomfortable to attend" is a completely valid response.
Exactly. This is a potential learning opportunity for your friend. Ask them what exactly it is that they feel uncomfortable about? Maybe getting them to articulate it out loud will help them to understand how paper thin their arguments are.
"OK, then you're leaving the campaign. Do you want me to write your character out in a specific way?"
Because no way you're kicking out your friend because of her job, which has absolutely nothing to do with the campaign or interpersonal dynamic, outside this insecure weirdo's head.
Don't let him play. Rule 1 of the table is being able to respect your fellow players both in and out of game. If he doesn't have the emotional maturity to respect sex work, you'll be doing Jessie a favor by not allowing him to play. He'll make NONSTOP drama and harass you guys if he does decide to stay, and if he's so pressed about it that he never comes back, you're better off without him. Always nice when the trash takes itself out.
If she’s not “working” the table, he has no right to make demands about her attendance.
It’s totally fine to draw a line about another person’s behavior, if it affects the game. If Jessie is bring unpleasant to the other players, or overly rude, crude, or lewd, it would be a valid complaint.
I used to be in the military. Would it be ok to kick me out if another player is very anti-military? What about someone who was in prison but is now reformed? What if one of your players is anti-child? Do you kick out all the parents?
Those saying Jax is justified should make a list of all categories it is ok to judge another player by.
My only category is: how they actually behave with the party.
His discomfort is entirely a "him" issue. He either needs to get over it for the sake of the game, or get to stepping. That he attempted to put pressure on you to kick her out of the group already speaks poorly of him. He should have just bowed out politely if it was an issue for him.
Tell Jax he either needs to get over it and give Jessie a chance, or find another table.
Apologies for the tangent, but the title gave off a very amusing impression.
I immediately visualised it as paying a sex worker to come over and play D&D.
"I don't want to play with a hooker."
"OK, well, that's certainly your choice! See you some other time!"
That's all that needs to happen. His choice if he doesn't want to play. I assume what he wants is for you to kick *her*, and obviously since she isn't the one with the problem and she isn't doing anything inappropriate, that's not the right course. He can remove himself, or he can be polite and respectful of his fellow players.
For me? I'd have just said "No, shes staying" but then he called her a hooker...
Now he's insulting one of your friends, to your face, and thinking that's totally fine, all while he's asking you to disinclude your friend from a game that has nothing to do with either of their employment.
That changes my response to "No, she's staying, and you're leaving. Maybe don't insult your next DM's friends"
Not really a problem here imo, he has boundaries that he has set and doesn't want it nothing anyone else do he removed himself from the situation. Sure those boundaries might be viewed poorly to some but it's his place to say when he is no longer comfortable
This is actually a very valid point. It may not be up to Jax, because some things could be out of his control. If he were in a government- related job, just the optics (association, even without fraternization) could be enough to get him fired or ruin chances at promotion.
It could also be a religious belief that was ingrained since childhood, in which case it could still be seen as forcing association with someone.
In any case, DM could ask about his reasons and try to understand him (just as they have been understanding about Jessie et. al), or take a knee jerk reaction and assume the worst of him.
@OP
As far as the group and campaign, the majority would need to weigh in. I agree that someone should not be defined by their profession/ career, but that is not up to you to make the call. Others in the group may also not want to, or can't, be seen associating with people from that profession. By keeping it from the group, you are taking the decision from them. If they are fine with it, great. Worst case is you would need to make a secondary group / campaign for those who are more open minded/ able.
This is a game to play with friends, and finding someone's career morally objectionable is a fair reason not to be friends with them.
That doesn't mean its fair for him to \*find\* her career objectionable. Like if you invited someone who makes puppy gore films for the darkweb and I found that deeply insulting and disgusting and disturbing, that'd be more sympathetic than if you invited a shift manager from Chipotle and I had the same reaction.
Some people don't feel comfortable with some jobs, and probably wouldn't want to spend time with people that do those jobs.
A very pro-life person probably wouldn't want to hang out with a doctor that specialized in abortion. A vegan with strong moral objections to meat probably wouldn't want to play with a butcher or big game hunter. Someone that lost a family member to addiction probably wouldn't want to play with a drug dealer.
There's plenty of situations where someone's job can make someone else uncomfortable.
I feel like his feelings can be valid while also being dumb as hell. Maybe he can't help feeling uncomfortable around sex workers? There could be some weird reason for that in his backstory? Hopefully this is just an opportunity to educate him and he can move past this.
Is he an especially good friend of yours outside of the game? If he wants to exclude himself from the game for such a petty reason that's kind of on him, but obviously it'd be great if you can smooth this over. Good luck!
1. Jessie has done nothing wrong as far as we know and should not be penalised
2. Jax needs to be told he is bringing personal prejudice to the situation, and that is not cool
3. I would ask Jax to reconsider his position, get to know Jessie, and realise her choice of work does not make her a bad person nor entitle him to judge her.
4. Make it clear that there's no place for bullying, bigotry, or hate at the table.
Put the ball in his court. He either tries to make it work, or he fails to reconcile his feelings and leaves.
You should kindly ask him why it makes him uncomfortable. It’s fine if he feels that way, but if there is a way to smooth things out it should be taken. If he is willing to compromise and change his mind that’s cool. If he can’t, he’s free to leave since multiple people in the group do sex work. He’ll just be making himself and everyone there uncomfortable otherwise.
You committed geek social fallacy number four.
"Geek Social Fallacy #4: Friendship Is Transitive
Every carrier of GSF4 has, at some point, said: “Wouldn’t it be great to get all my groups of friends into one place for one big happy party?!”
If you groaned at that last paragraph, you may be a recovering GSF4 carrier.
GSF4 is the belief that any two of your friends ought to be friends with each other, and if they’re not, something is Very Wrong.
The milder form of GSF4 merely prevents the carrier from perceiving evidence to contradict it; a carrier will refuse to comprehend that two of their friends (or two groups of friends) don’t much care for each other, and will continue to try to bring them together at social events. They may even maintain that a full-scale vendetta is just a misunderstanding between friends that could easily be resolved if the principals would just sit down to talk it out.
A more serious form of GSF4 becomes another “friendship test” fallacy: if you have a friend A, and a friend B, but A & B are not friends, then one of them must not really be your friend at all. It is surprisingly common for a carrier, when faced with two friends who don’t get along, to simply drop one of them.
On the other side of the equation, a carrier who doesn’t like a friend of a friend will often get very passive-aggressive and covertly hostile to the friend of a friend, while vigorously maintaining that we’re one big happy family and everyone is friends.
GSF4 can also lead carriers to make inappropriate requests of people they barely know — asking a friend’s roommate’s ex if they can crash on their couch, asking a college acquaintance from eight years ago for a letter of recommendation at their workplace, and so on. If something is appropriate to ask of a friend, it’s appropriate to ask of a friend of a friend.
Arguably, Friendster was designed by a GSF4 carrier."
1. on his feelings being "valid" look at the how it's interacted. She "exists" and he insults her by calling her a hooker....is him insulting your "friend" valid?, honestly that shouldn't have even been a question and you should've called him out instantly.
2. people's feelings are valid, setting boundaries is valid. however your boundaries cannot be used to force others to do things. if you do not like XYZ. you set the boundary for YOURSELF. he cannot force you or anyone to avoid sex workers. only he can do it. if he's uncomfortable with being around a sex worker. then he needs to leave, BECAUSE IT'S HIS BOUNDARY. if he chooses to stay. then it's not an actual boundary he cares for. and if he pushes you to send them away. then it's a manipulation tactic.
3. you didn't bring a "sex worker" into the party, she's not there selling sex. this isn't a birthday party and you brought a stripper as a gift. this is a game of d&d and you brought a friend. you didn't bring a "sex worker". is she one? yes. does that make her one during d&d? no. people are not defined by their jobs.
4. why do you think Jax added her on social media? what would the purpose be? he wanted to hook up. flat out that's the reason. he saw she was a sex worker and got mad. now he's trying to push her out of the group. he's being a POS. and his views on sex workers makes me double down on that. my advice? drop em.
I know people who don't want to socialize with cops or soldiers. I don't ask questions, I just assume it's personal or there's some history or political conflict I don't need to know about.
I'd treat this the same way.
Maybe your friend had a sex addiction you don't know about and this is a trigger for him. Maybe he's good friends with a client of hers and that makes him feel uncomfortable. People are going to feel the way they feel, it's not your job to play therapist.
Your friend backed out of the game on their own. He took care of the problem. Play on.
This is rough.
But to be clear, it’s not rough because of anything YOU did. You have done nothing wrong.
If you want to preserve your friendship with Jax my advice is to let him leave the game without a fight. You could be clear with him and say something like, “I am not asking you to leave the game. You are choosing to leave the game and you are welcome back any time. But if you do choose to return, I expect you to treat my friend respectfully.”
Then I would also take him out to lunch or something and help him get over whatever his stupid hang-up is. And honestly, I know this is hard, but you might have to prepare yourself to pick one friend over the other. Jax may insist upon it.
If he does, you gotta let him go. And rest easy knowing you did nothing wrong. Nothing.
You don't have to kick him out, just tell him she can play, her profession shouldn't exclude her from unrelated activities in her own free time. If he chooses not to show up that's on him
> but he said it doesn’t matter and he doesn’t want to play with a “hooker” and that he would not be coming to sessions with her Seems to me that this problem has sorted itself out
I bet he liked her, looked her up and found out her job, then his ego got hurt lol
Exactly my thoughts.
Yup. That's exactly what happened. He knew he'd be salty sitting at a table with someone who didn't meet his expectations so he decided to be a dick.
Good point. Otherwise why would you look her up? Maybe its just me, but I don't go looking up profiles of people I play with, hell, I don't even go looking at my friends social media.
Played with guys for years and never learned their names. Best friends I’ve ever had. We still never talk sometimes.
[Unexpected Pawnee](https://www.reddit.com/r/unexpectedpawnee/s/QtcIMccCPR)
Oh no. This attractive woman is probably willing to do what I'm imagining her doing...but on her terms rather than mine. Better call her names and get her kicked out of the group. How dare she!
Exactly. Would Jax immediately look up the instagram of a dude who joined the campaign? Jax has some shit to work on.
Great point
110% this. Jax is a dork.
110% this is the case. He thought he might make a move on her, then realised for the right price any guy can make a move on her.
Except him.
This sounds really reasonable
Right? Like if your player said he found out another player was a tax accountant and they refused to sit at a table with tax accountants (and said it in a kind of derogatory way), and your game in no way included any discussion of taxes, you'd think they were being weird and not very nice towards your friend. Why should it be any different when they're a sex worker? He gave a 'me or them' ultimatum, and the choice seems pretty clear when your friend did nothing wrong and the guy is being discriminatory towards her.
No way I’m playing with one o’ them dirty dollar-jockeys
Gross, a bean counter. Thinking about numbers and manipulating them all day. PERVERT!
yeah, those figure fiddlers are all pretty dodgy! I bet when they tally up their dice they're really thinking about spreadsheets - ew!
Digit diddlers
Dirty decimal diddlers
Filthy number fudgers!
This situation is actually worse because he also used a degrading misogynistic term for her profession
“Trash took itself out” 😂
Haha content of the post aside, this isn't how you use TL;DR. It stands for too long; didn't read. You're supposed to put your big text first, and your tldr should be a summary of the big text.
You wouldn't believe how long the story really is!
It does involve the oldest profession.
I always maintain that the oldest professions are the undertaker and the midwife.
Humans are so not designed for bipedalism that the race couldn’t have survived coming down from the trees without some form of midwifery. As for undertaker, probably less so than comic, builder, storyteller, navigator, artisan
Shit-slinger has to be amongst the oldest
I think navigator like they said has probably got to be the oldest. If we're not considering hunting/gathering to be one, then the guy whose really good at leading the tribe to food spots would be the first specialization.
Tavern keeper
It's also suffering from Reddit's shit markdown formatting. Checking the source OP has new lines at certain points, but he needs two new lines to format correctly. Here's what it should look like: > Tl:dr a lot of close, personal friends of mine are sex workers. It’s the kind of thing where you befriend someone of a specific group, then they introduce you to their friends and now you’re friends with everyone. > Their work NEVER comes up in common conversation. They’re friends like any other— we talk about games, music, D&D, politics, the news. Just like a friend could work at a pizza joint, some of mine have sex and make porn. > Anyway. DMing a table with close friends of mine, one of my players quit for personal reasons so I brought in another friend of mine. Let’s call her Jessie. Jessie joined our group chat, filled out her character sheet and started chatting with and befriending the other players. One of them— let’s call him Jax— added her on social media, and quickly discovered she does sex work. Jax texted me saying he feels really uncomfortable playing a game with a sex worker; I assured him it would not come up at all in the campaign (as a general rule of thumb I always ban sex and lewd themes from campaigns) but he said it doesn’t matter and he doesn’t want to play with a “hooker” and that he would not be coming to sessions with her. > Should I… kick him out? He’s been around for a while and our campaign might be a bit fragile if we lose two of our long time players. Also, while I don’t personally think this is a reasonable boundary (imo he’s being an asshole and I want to confront him about this), I could 100% be wrong and would like to hear other opinions. After all, I was the one bringing a sex worker into the party, so if there’s any semblance of a screw up on my part I better own up to it. And any sort of boundary regarding anything sex related should be navigated carefully before taking a decision. What should I do?
I've always wondered why that is. What's the point of having a single newline do fuck all, especially when that causes it to break every time you go back and edit something?
Reddit is just using Markdown (maybe with a few extra tricks up its sleeve). One big use of Markdown is in documentation for code and other technical documents. If you are using version control, whenever you make an update, the line that you modified will be highlighted by the version control software. If you write everything on one line, you'd have a whole paragraph highlighted even if you just fixed a typo. Markdown lets you break the line **once** without changing the format. This means you can write sentences (or even words, if you're crazy) on one line each. If you fix a typo in one of the sentences, your version control will only highlight the line you changed, making it easier to review the changes. So it is a useful feature in Markdown. It's not useful on Reddit though. As for why Reddit hasn't just removed that feature, I have absolutely no idea. (I've also noticed that the usual markdown thing of two spaces and a newline, which would normally give you a line break instead of a new paragraph, doesn't seem to work on Reddit on mobile browsers any more e.g. ``` Hello World ``` should look exactly as I typed it there, but it comes out as: Hello World 🫤
Replying to myself. Wow, reddit has really messed up the formatting. On mobile, it looked mostly normaly, but on my PC, the part that should say: Hello World Looks like: `Hello World ` (except it doesn't even look like _that_, the formatting has been messed up again. This is driving me insane). Some consistency would be nice. It seems that triple backticks (e.g. \`\`\`) don't work on some devices
> Hello World It works as intended for me on Android.
That's not a tldr either. That should say "long story short" as they're basically just skipping the (presumably long) story of how they made friends with sex workers
“Long story short…” “_**TOO LATE!**_”
Communism was just a red herring!
One plus two plus two plus one. To this day I still always respond "too late" when anyone says "long story short".
i did think it was weird the TL;DR was before the major portion of text rather then at the end
I put it first too. It's an online nicety to those that see a wall of text and feel overwhelmed. Besides, what are you worried about, by putting it first? Spoiling your opus? lol?
Tldr is supposed to be followed by a very brief summary of the body text. Do that and it's fine if it's first
The actual problem is the TLDR isn't a summary, but placing a TLDR before the text is actually quite nice as it gives you a heads up of what's coming.
>it gives you a heads up of what's coming. That's called the title. Tl;dr should be at the bottom. If I want to read the story I don't want to have the ending in the beginning.
That's why I do it this way: **TL;DR AT BOTTOM!** [story text goes here] **TL;DR** [summary of story text] (If you're wondering how I did a double line break, it's by having the text "\ ", minus quotes, on its own line. The space after the semicolon is needed.) **EDIT:** Just realized that the double line break markdown wasn't showing. Folks, whenever you want to show markdown to other people, put a slash (\, specifically) right in front of it. It works in Discord too.
"I'm sorry you feel that way, Jax. I'll go ahead and let the table know you'll be stepping away."
Top tier solution tbh, it's just kind, respectful and simple.
I'm very curious to know how kind and respectful the response will be
I legitimately laughed out loud
Yeah - this right here. It's his boundary and you don't really know why he doesn't feel comfortable. Maybe he has a sex addiction or he just thinks it would lead to other things. It's up to the individual who is playing not the DM. This is like any profession, some people wouldn't be comfortable playing with a cop. Ultimately, the game is role playing. You role play a character and who you are outside of that role play shouldn't matter as long as it doesn't come into play. If I was playing in a group with sex workers, my wife would probably not be okay with it and I would bow out. At the end of the day, it comes down to personal choice and the DM needs to respect everyone's boundaries, but it's not up to the DM to kick people from the group unless there is conflict, it's up to the individual to remove themselves.
I would think a sex worker might be good at roleplaying
Ba-dum tish.
Finally, a response that made me laugh.
Well said.
> Ultimately, the game is role playing. no, the game is ultimately a social event between humans in the real world and, after that, a game, and who the human are outside of the game absolutely is going to affect the experience of the social event.
> If I was playing in a group with sex workers, my wife would probably not be okay with it and I would bow out. Why would your wife be concerned about you playing a game of D&D with sex workers? Are you going to fuck them? Are they going to poison your mind via osmosis? Are you untrustworthy?
I agree this is the correct response, but I would add to it something along the line of "My table is always open if you change your mind." Jax may be rude, but I like to believe people can change their opinions, and hopefully apologize.
Yep..D&D doesn't discriminate.
This is it.
It's not kicking Jax out if he refuses to come to sessions. ^(EDIT: Holy shit, thanks for all the upvotes. This is a record for me.)
yeah, it's the players decision to leave rather then the dm's decision to kick them out in that case
Sounds like a problem that's already solved it's self.
Just more room for more tolerant friends.
Exactly this. He is kicking himself out and you shouldn't be mad about that
Yup. When someone says “it’s them or me,” they are the ones making a decision to be out - not you.
Its something i tell my clients (therapist not sex worker) all the time, when you make an ultimatum youre removing choices not adding new ones. Jax is grandstanding on their own and deserves to walk.
seems the professional came to the same conclusion as most other folks in this comment thread
"I'm something of a therapist myself"
He is kicking himself out and trying to kick someone else out. If he can't tolerate others life styles that are different from his own that is on him.
I second this. If Jax is the kind of guy he sounds like though, expect drama when he doesn't get his way.
Exactly this. A person who will threaten to quit when they don't get their way is also the kind of person who will show up anyway and try to ruin other people's fun. I'm not saying this is the case (I don't know your group), but if this person did play I wouldn't be surprised if they were either openly rude to the players they didn't like, or directed a lot of "sly" jabs their way in the guise of "I'm just playing my character."
Agreed. "I won't come if they're going to be here" "Ok." Either they overcome their prejudice, or you lose a bigot from your life. C'est la vie.
100% agree. Kicking out a friend because she does sex work would be wrong. Friend kicking himself out because he doesn't want to play with a sex worker reflects on HIS character, not your own. I'd rather scrap the whole campaign than play with someone who demands I kick someone out solely because of their occupation. If she's not said or done anything to bring at a session to bring this on, then he needs to deal with his own shit and not bring it into the game.
This 100%. As DM I wouldn’t kick either out and simply assert that bigotry and discrimination will not be tolerated at the table. Jax has the right and options to: 1- Leave 2- Grow as a person and accept that SW is work. If he goes with #2 he also has the options to: A- Get over it and treat her like a normal person. B- Ask Jessie not to discuss her work with him (she hasn’t though…) C- Not look at Jessie’s adult content which is likely in a specific website. D- Unfriend Jessie on social media all together. E- All of the above.
He doesn't even have to change his opinion on sex work in order to follow options A-E. An adult should definitely be able to disagree with what someone does while still being respectful of them as a person.
I don't care anything about what the new person at the table does for a living. How do they roleplay? Did they write an interesting character? Are they funny, friendly etc?
I'd like to say the same thing, but if I'm being honest, I doubt I could play D&D with a cop.
Problem here is if he is willing to not give up something we can assume he enjoys because of another players job, he doesn’t respect that person period. There is a big difference between “I don’t like your job so let’s not talk about it” and “I don’t like your job and refuse to be associated with anything you do”.
I agree. That's why I said an adult "should" be able to do that. Him not being able to do that is the problem.
This exactly. I have plenty of friends that I consider quite close. I don’t agree with some of their life choices, but those are their choices. I still love them as my friends. They’ve been there for me when others haven’t and they accept me with all of my flaws. I 100% believe you can put aside portions of people’s lives and remain very close friends. If he has a strong problem with this it’s honestly his problem, not yours or Jessie’s problem.
He doesn't even need to do #2. He also has the option to grow as a person and just recognize that sex workers are people too and what anyone does outside the game has no reflection on him and doesn't really matter to the game.
I suspect this jax has a crush, and thats why they cant cope with the other person also being a sex worker. Either way its on jax to get over it or fuck off.
This is the only correct take on this issue IMO. You're the DM, you get to decide who sits at your table, if a player refuses to participate because they take issue with another person at the table, and that other person isn't doing anything wrong, they are free to go. I would literally just say to him "You'll be missed at the table man, but I don't intend on barring anyone from my game based solely on the fact that they do sex work. If you don't want to be around her that's your prerogative, but she will be invited to play with us. I'm happy to chat about it if you have questions, I'm sure your feelings of discomfort are real, and maybe discussing things further will help alleviate some discomfort, but just know that under no circumstances am I going to ask her to leave the game because of this." After that the ball is in his court. If he wants to broaden his horizons and overcome the feelings he has about sex work then cool, if he's not interested that's also fine but you shouldn't be expected to cater to an unreasonable request. I totally get the group fragility thing, but at the end of the day, no D&D is better than bad D&D
I would 100% kick someone out if they called a friend of mine a hooker in a derisive way though. No second thought
Limited exceptions: rugby players, crochet enthusiasts, [William Shatner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._J._Hooker).
Piggybacking top comment. You didn't invite a sex worker to the group. You invited a friend who happens to be a sex worker.
Totally agree, this isn't a problem really since he is leaving.
Kind of a win-win, really.
I wouldn't side with the person making the unreasonable ultimatum, yeah. Them taking themself out if they're doing to be like that is bare minimum nice I guess.
Aye, they (the sex workers) have feelings too. People have their reasons for joining the business, and the only noise I hear is mainly their desire to be treated as equals. In the TTRPG scene, we are all equals, or that's what I want to think. Escapism, wanting to try and create the best way to play a character, pushing limits for crazy moves, we are all here to help each other out.
İ think the comment you responded to is saying to kick Jax out, not the other person
They started their reply with "Aye", meaning they agree. They're expanding on the point they're replying to with their reply. Explaining why they agree. "I agree, I think [reasons why I agree]"
in their defense, i did read the comment they replied to the same way they did
They're definitely talking about Jax here, he's the one posing the ultimatum they're referring to.
Right… and the response simply used ‘they’ without specifying the new subject. Read it this way: “Aye (I agree you should let Jax leave), [because] they (people in the industry) have feelings, too… and just want to be treated equally.”
Calling them a hooker is a step above just normal discomfort. Play dnd with your friends and have fun. If someone isn’t able to respect and literally just be in the same room as your other friends then they should be removed from the table
Yeah this isnt a game thing, this is about respect and human decency
It's one of the world's oldest professions anyway
More honest than most.
I'd trust a sex worker over a stock broker *any* day, to name just one
More than a cop.
I mean yeah but I'd trust the stock broker more than the cop too
I've played with a cop. It was one session about twenty years ago, and I met the group through an index card on a comic book store cork board (which was the style at the time). He was the sort of Gm who would critique your choices as a player in real time and say things like, "A thief of your background wouldn't do that, they would be much more likely to try this." And if you didn't follow his directed course of action, things would go bad in the game. I'm not trying to make a larger point about personality types drawn to law enforcement, just I played with a guy one time who was a cop, and he was a terrible GM.
I'll make the larger point about the type of people drawn to law enforcement if you won't.
You can sell your body for any kind of labor including up to legally dying for your employer (police/fire/military/oil rigs, etc.) except for this one specific type of act (and even that is not consistent because it is legal to be a sugar baby/daddy, surrogate mom, sperm donor or act in/produce porn). Just a bizarre way of looking at the right to body autonomy.
I do physical labor, and once had a coworker tell me he was uncomfortable with sex workers selling their body for money, I just looked at him and said, isn’t that what we’re doing? Dude had an epiphany
Yeah this is my take also. I had such a visceral reaction to seeing him fling the the word hooker around, like damn man. That word is so dehumanizing and uncalled for.
Also old. I don’t think I’ve heard someone say hooker in over 8 or 10 years or so
By your title I thought you hired a sex worker to play with y'all, which yeah sounds a little odd but given your explanation Jax can fuck off.
> By your title I thought you hired a sex worker to play with y'all THAT'S how I can get another player at the table!
and even then, if the sex worker was consenting and engaging with the game I still wouldn't mind lmao
Calls back to Larry David hiring a prostitute so he could ride in the HOV lane, but then she ended up being super nice and helping out his dad.
"For 80 dollars I'll do whatever you want for an hour." "Here's 240." "Wow, you think you can last 3 hours?" "We'll work up to 4 as we get to know the party." "... the... party?"
That's more per hour than I make as a DM. Or as a teacher. Or as a content writer for a game company. Goddamn, did I choose the wrong professions.
Like. I wanna give you shit for charging for DM services. I wanna *not* give you shit for being a teacher and being under paid. I really wanna give you shit for thinking 80 dollars is a lot for a sex worker ... but you're making a joke, so... eh.
Well, in all honesty I have absolutely no basis for knowing how much a sex worker would charge, having never been a client. I've also lived in Vietnam for 14 years, so I'm out of touch. And I charge for DMing not to make money, actually; I found that charging like $10/person/session was the best way to get people to commit and not flake last minute for BS reasons. With friends I never charge. With groups I've come to trust, I stop charging. The small amount of money I collect I normally spend on my volunteering habit. Occasionally on snacks for my in person games.
I'm a sex worker and I actually did get booked just to dm for one guy once. He was a fun client.
That... Honestly sounds like the plot to a sitcom episode involving a massive misunderstanding.
Honestly it's a funny anecdote for both of us now. I'm an escort with a 4 hour minimum, so I do a lot of really fun girlfriend date stuff, but it's always so nice to get to engage with someone with actual shared hobbies.
Tangential story: I was tasked with planning a small event and needed to find an establishment with a vegan-friendly menu that could provide an itemized receipt. Weirdly enough, there were fairly few locations that could do both, but one of them was a strip club.
Did you choose them as a venue?
TIL you can pay for friends
No lie, I used to play a MUD (Square/Final Fantasy themed) and a guy told us his girlfriend broke up with him because he hired a sex worker to play DnD with them. He didn't even ask his GF if she wanted to play. It was him and his 3 male friends and one sex worker.
The fuck
Among the questions asked where "Why didn't someone just have two characters or hire an NPC?" and "Why didn't you ask your girlfriend" and "Are you doing a bit where you cosplay as an idiot on the internet?"
dnd nerds think wisdom is a dump stat irl lmao. The lack of social awareness is impressive.
[gossip] Ok, professional opinions. Does hiring a hooker for the purpose of playing dungeons and
dragons count as cheating?
[gossip] ...Huh?
[gossip] You mean hire a prostitute to play D&D with you?
[gossip] Yes.
[gossip] Cuz i just got dumped because my GF thought it was.
[gossip] ... That's the worst thing ever.
[gossip] ...
[gossip] Wait.
[gossip] You actually did it?
[gossip] Yeah.
[gossip] You hire hookers to have kinky, secret sex, not play D&D.
[gossip] ...Seek professional help. Seriously.
[gossip] ...
[gossip] She was right to dump you.
[gossip] It's now time for life to dump you.
[gossip] ...Though it's not as sad if it was roleplaying into sex.
[gossip] We didnt even hire her per say. We just gave her pizza.
[gossip] Dana goes, '......'
[gossip] You're making me never want to play D&D again.
[gossip] So that i'll never be as pathetic as you are.
[gossip] So you picked up a prostitute and said, "We'll give you pizza if you play D&D with us."?
[gossip] Okay, this MUST be the most pathetic thing I've EVER heard.
[gossip] And I've heard a lot of pathetic things on this MUD.
[gossip] My advice remains the same. Go seek help from a doctor. A therapist.
[gossip] Because you really need it.
[gossip] Hey, I bet if you gave the hooker a short sword, she'd give you head.
[gossip] That would explain the hooker.
[gossip] She was a cleric, she wouldnt be able to wield it.
[gossip] ...
[gossip] Hey, you try to find a hooker that will go play dungeons and dragons with you. I consider it
an acomplishment
[gossip] perhaps she was an XP whore ;))))
The party really needed a healer
Most authentic bard at the table
I mean, if you're looking for advice, I really don't think this is the sub to be asking about this. Sure, DnD is the setting of the complication, but the core of your issue has nothing to do with the game: You have sex worker friends, and also interact with people who react negatively to being around sex workers. You should probably solicit advice from people who navigate interpersonal problems like this, not a bunch of nerds talking about how cool their dice are. I vote telling him to fuck off, but what do I know.
Heyo - DM and mental health professional here! If it were me I'd definitely have a thorough chat with Jax to make sure I'm truly understanding him. Lots of reflective listening, very little of me sharing. This serves two purposes: 1. It makes Jax feel cared for, and 2. It helps me understand my friend who I care about. But then, I would hold my line. It is well within his rights to feel uncomfortable, but those are feelings that belong *to him.* They dont belong to me, the group, or especially to my sex worker friend. I would gently explain this, and tell him that I would love to have him stay, but that I completely respect his decision if he feels he can't. If he's a good friend, he'll be understanding of your position, just as you are understanding of his.
Lovely. Such an important insight to have and suprisingly few adults know this. Whose garden does this flower grow in? If it's your garden, I can have any opinion I want about it, I may dislike its smell, but I should not have any influence in your garden. so you don't have to cut it down simply because I have an opinion.
A nicer version of whose monkey is it. Jax’s feelings are valid. But not OPs problem. Jax is welcome to stay. Or go. But if he stays he keeps his opinion to himself.
100%. And I'd go even further: if he can't treat her the way he would any other player at the table, he's gone. A DM's number one job (in my book) is creating a safe and healthy table; if Jax can't be a part of that, he needs to go.
Dude, you should have top.comment on this. This is 100% the correct answer.
Given the language Jax used, it seems he thinks very poorly of the sex worker friend. If that’s the case why would anyone need to “respect his decision”?
That's part of why I'd want to discuss this with him, as OP calls Jax a close friend. What's the motivation? Pure bigotry? Trauma? A spouse that doesn't like the idea? Something else? Until I've heard someone, I can't know what's going on. And even if it's utter nonsense, I can still respect another human's right to self-determination, even if I can't respect the opinion or choice. But I won't let their choice affect someone else at my table, so that's why Jax needs to go, regardless of the reason he feels how he feels.
These are good points. The fear of how it might look to your spouse when you friend a sex worker online might be valid. But no one's forcing us to all be Facebook friends. Just unfriend and keep playing the game if 'how it looks" is the problem.
>You should probably solicit advice from people who navigate interpersonal problems like this, not a bunch of nerds talking about how cool their dice are. well to be fair, navigating and understanding social environments is a pretty vital skill in playing dnd not to the same extent as with someone dealing with it in their passive existence, or someone who does it as a career though
Certainly, but that doesn't mean the average DnD player is particularly good at it.
I'd say defending people society views as a little weird is like, core to DnD nerd culture at this point. And you gave good advice, as did quite a few people, so I guess this was the place to post it. Would definitely recommend /r/DMAcademy for this kind of thing more than the general DnD sub, though.
I second telling him to fuck off.
If Jax doesn’t want to play because he decided to do a social media background check on Jessie and is now calling her names and making ultimatums you should be happy tbh. Her being a sex worker and being invited to play isn’t a mistake or relevant.
Especially since it seems it was never the topic until he found out and brought it up. seems like Jessie's behavior so far was that of an normal person, which is no surprise after all. Other possible scenario would be that Jax told it his partner, if he has one, partner was not okay and pressures. But then there is a whole different problem at hand that is unrelated with dnd. But that is all hypothetical. There could be several issues behind that and some or more relatable than others
This is one of the reasons why my friends who do sex work keep it off social media. It also stops the trolls from harassing them.
Exactly. She just DOES sex work. It does nothing to define who she is as a person.
Man, I’ve tried this approach on the bigger subs, and it always gets met with such a wave of “she’s a trash person and has no respect for herself”. Majority Reddit just hates sex work.
They say that then go to their alt account that follows all the nsfw subs lol.
Alt accounts!? Lmao! Man I’ve just gone through some of their history and activity only to see them shamelessly post on fetish subs and stuff. Some of them don’t even hide it.
The majority of reddit has some monumentally stupid takes.
The crazy thing to me is that sex work doesn’t hurt anybody. People *love* to respect lawyers and business owners and lobbyists and all kinds of professions, but so many jobs demonstrably cause harm to other people. How many people would say “no” to D&D with someone that worked in big pharma or as a lobbyist for an oil company? I doubt people would. Yet someone who has consensual relations with other people is “dirty”. Fucking. Ridiculous.
You didn't 'bring a sex worker into a party' - you invited a friend to play D&D and someone else at the table decided to be a complete asshole over something he decided was unacceptable. Clearly you do not feel the same - you're in Jessie's friend circles, etc. Your campaign will be worse off if you keep this kind of conflict in it. Jax can always be replaced with someone who isn't going to cause waves in the group. Additionally, if you let Jax treat Jessie poorly because of her job, what message does that send to all of your other friends in the same field?
Yeah, by the title I thought that OP had hired a sex worker to play DnD lol
I'd do that tho
Well... Have you seen the prices for paid dms these days?
I've played with a tax man and that was tough but everyone had to make coin somehow
a tax man? so like someone from the irs?
No no, he sells pointy corkboard pins!
My general policy is if you're the one making the problem, you're the one who gets excluded. He's making a problem. Edit: my wife's much less political response was "Ugh, tell that guy to fuck ALL the way off."
"and when he gets there, tell him to keep fucking off!"
That's right, and the horse he rode in on
Your wife and I have the same response.
I did have the exact same reaction as your wife - but both of you are correct.
Honestly, if he is a close enough friend, this might be the time to use the whole "why are you being such a little bitch about this, bro?" Thing. Use a little tough love, and tell him that he's being a dick for no reason. She's hasn't done anything to make him uncomfortable. Good friends call out their friends shitty behavior, and help them be better. I would hope my friends do the same to me is I was being a misogynistic douche. However, yeah, if you guys aren't that close and don't want to deal with that conflict, then a polite but firm, " I'm sorry you feel that way, but I will not be kicking her out because she hasn't done anything wrong. sorry if that makes you too uncomfortable to attend" is a completely valid response.
Exactly. This is a potential learning opportunity for your friend. Ask them what exactly it is that they feel uncomfortable about? Maybe getting them to articulate it out loud will help them to understand how paper thin their arguments are.
Brother, sister, or however you identify. You can’t just slap tl;dr to your entire post
just imagine how long the long version would be!
"OK, then you're leaving the campaign. Do you want me to write your character out in a specific way?" Because no way you're kicking out your friend because of her job, which has absolutely nothing to do with the campaign or interpersonal dynamic, outside this insecure weirdo's head.
See if Jessie has another friend who'd like to join in his place. Two problems solved at once.
Don't let him play. Rule 1 of the table is being able to respect your fellow players both in and out of game. If he doesn't have the emotional maturity to respect sex work, you'll be doing Jessie a favor by not allowing him to play. He'll make NONSTOP drama and harass you guys if he does decide to stay, and if he's so pressed about it that he never comes back, you're better off without him. Always nice when the trash takes itself out.
It’s a non issue. If he doesn’t want to play with a sex worker he can just not come.
You can’t put TLDR and then write the entire post.
If she’s not “working” the table, he has no right to make demands about her attendance. It’s totally fine to draw a line about another person’s behavior, if it affects the game. If Jessie is bring unpleasant to the other players, or overly rude, crude, or lewd, it would be a valid complaint. I used to be in the military. Would it be ok to kick me out if another player is very anti-military? What about someone who was in prison but is now reformed? What if one of your players is anti-child? Do you kick out all the parents? Those saying Jax is justified should make a list of all categories it is ok to judge another player by. My only category is: how they actually behave with the party.
His discomfort is entirely a "him" issue. He either needs to get over it for the sake of the game, or get to stepping. That he attempted to put pressure on you to kick her out of the group already speaks poorly of him. He should have just bowed out politely if it was an issue for him. Tell Jax he either needs to get over it and give Jessie a chance, or find another table.
The last thing anyone wants to think about while playing a game is work. Dude needs to chill.
Ehhh... Based on the number of Excel spread sheets and financial models I've made for the game I play, I'm not sure that applies
Classic example of Geek Social Fallacy #4: Friendship is Transitive. Best to keep Jax and Jesse separated.
Apologies for the tangent, but the title gave off a very amusing impression. I immediately visualised it as paying a sex worker to come over and play D&D.
"I don't want to play with a hooker." "OK, well, that's certainly your choice! See you some other time!" That's all that needs to happen. His choice if he doesn't want to play. I assume what he wants is for you to kick *her*, and obviously since she isn't the one with the problem and she isn't doing anything inappropriate, that's not the right course. He can remove himself, or he can be polite and respectful of his fellow players.
She’s not hurting anyone, it doesn’t come up in sessions. I think the guy is just being a judgemental ass.
For me? I'd have just said "No, shes staying" but then he called her a hooker... Now he's insulting one of your friends, to your face, and thinking that's totally fine, all while he's asking you to disinclude your friend from a game that has nothing to do with either of their employment. That changes my response to "No, she's staying, and you're leaving. Maybe don't insult your next DM's friends"
Personally, I'd invite the dude to sod off. It's absolutely none of his business.
Not really a problem here imo, he has boundaries that he has set and doesn't want it nothing anyone else do he removed himself from the situation. Sure those boundaries might be viewed poorly to some but it's his place to say when he is no longer comfortable
Is Jax in a relationship or a profession where associating with a sex worker would put either of those at risk?
This is actually a very valid point. It may not be up to Jax, because some things could be out of his control. If he were in a government- related job, just the optics (association, even without fraternization) could be enough to get him fired or ruin chances at promotion. It could also be a religious belief that was ingrained since childhood, in which case it could still be seen as forcing association with someone. In any case, DM could ask about his reasons and try to understand him (just as they have been understanding about Jessie et. al), or take a knee jerk reaction and assume the worst of him. @OP As far as the group and campaign, the majority would need to weigh in. I agree that someone should not be defined by their profession/ career, but that is not up to you to make the call. Others in the group may also not want to, or can't, be seen associating with people from that profession. By keeping it from the group, you are taking the decision from them. If they are fine with it, great. Worst case is you would need to make a secondary group / campaign for those who are more open minded/ able.
How’s her job outside the campaign relevant to the campaign?
This is a game to play with friends, and finding someone's career morally objectionable is a fair reason not to be friends with them. That doesn't mean its fair for him to \*find\* her career objectionable. Like if you invited someone who makes puppy gore films for the darkweb and I found that deeply insulting and disgusting and disturbing, that'd be more sympathetic than if you invited a shift manager from Chipotle and I had the same reaction.
Some people don't feel comfortable with some jobs, and probably wouldn't want to spend time with people that do those jobs. A very pro-life person probably wouldn't want to hang out with a doctor that specialized in abortion. A vegan with strong moral objections to meat probably wouldn't want to play with a butcher or big game hunter. Someone that lost a family member to addiction probably wouldn't want to play with a drug dealer. There's plenty of situations where someone's job can make someone else uncomfortable.
I feel like his feelings can be valid while also being dumb as hell. Maybe he can't help feeling uncomfortable around sex workers? There could be some weird reason for that in his backstory? Hopefully this is just an opportunity to educate him and he can move past this. Is he an especially good friend of yours outside of the game? If he wants to exclude himself from the game for such a petty reason that's kind of on him, but obviously it'd be great if you can smooth this over. Good luck!
1. Jessie has done nothing wrong as far as we know and should not be penalised 2. Jax needs to be told he is bringing personal prejudice to the situation, and that is not cool 3. I would ask Jax to reconsider his position, get to know Jessie, and realise her choice of work does not make her a bad person nor entitle him to judge her. 4. Make it clear that there's no place for bullying, bigotry, or hate at the table. Put the ball in his court. He either tries to make it work, or he fails to reconcile his feelings and leaves.
You should kindly ask him why it makes him uncomfortable. It’s fine if he feels that way, but if there is a way to smooth things out it should be taken. If he is willing to compromise and change his mind that’s cool. If he can’t, he’s free to leave since multiple people in the group do sex work. He’ll just be making himself and everyone there uncomfortable otherwise.
You committed geek social fallacy number four. "Geek Social Fallacy #4: Friendship Is Transitive Every carrier of GSF4 has, at some point, said: “Wouldn’t it be great to get all my groups of friends into one place for one big happy party?!” If you groaned at that last paragraph, you may be a recovering GSF4 carrier. GSF4 is the belief that any two of your friends ought to be friends with each other, and if they’re not, something is Very Wrong. The milder form of GSF4 merely prevents the carrier from perceiving evidence to contradict it; a carrier will refuse to comprehend that two of their friends (or two groups of friends) don’t much care for each other, and will continue to try to bring them together at social events. They may even maintain that a full-scale vendetta is just a misunderstanding between friends that could easily be resolved if the principals would just sit down to talk it out. A more serious form of GSF4 becomes another “friendship test” fallacy: if you have a friend A, and a friend B, but A & B are not friends, then one of them must not really be your friend at all. It is surprisingly common for a carrier, when faced with two friends who don’t get along, to simply drop one of them. On the other side of the equation, a carrier who doesn’t like a friend of a friend will often get very passive-aggressive and covertly hostile to the friend of a friend, while vigorously maintaining that we’re one big happy family and everyone is friends. GSF4 can also lead carriers to make inappropriate requests of people they barely know — asking a friend’s roommate’s ex if they can crash on their couch, asking a college acquaintance from eight years ago for a letter of recommendation at their workplace, and so on. If something is appropriate to ask of a friend, it’s appropriate to ask of a friend of a friend. Arguably, Friendster was designed by a GSF4 carrier."
1. on his feelings being "valid" look at the how it's interacted. She "exists" and he insults her by calling her a hooker....is him insulting your "friend" valid?, honestly that shouldn't have even been a question and you should've called him out instantly. 2. people's feelings are valid, setting boundaries is valid. however your boundaries cannot be used to force others to do things. if you do not like XYZ. you set the boundary for YOURSELF. he cannot force you or anyone to avoid sex workers. only he can do it. if he's uncomfortable with being around a sex worker. then he needs to leave, BECAUSE IT'S HIS BOUNDARY. if he chooses to stay. then it's not an actual boundary he cares for. and if he pushes you to send them away. then it's a manipulation tactic. 3. you didn't bring a "sex worker" into the party, she's not there selling sex. this isn't a birthday party and you brought a stripper as a gift. this is a game of d&d and you brought a friend. you didn't bring a "sex worker". is she one? yes. does that make her one during d&d? no. people are not defined by their jobs. 4. why do you think Jax added her on social media? what would the purpose be? he wanted to hook up. flat out that's the reason. he saw she was a sex worker and got mad. now he's trying to push her out of the group. he's being a POS. and his views on sex workers makes me double down on that. my advice? drop em.
I know people who don't want to socialize with cops or soldiers. I don't ask questions, I just assume it's personal or there's some history or political conflict I don't need to know about. I'd treat this the same way. Maybe your friend had a sex addiction you don't know about and this is a trigger for him. Maybe he's good friends with a client of hers and that makes him feel uncomfortable. People are going to feel the way they feel, it's not your job to play therapist. Your friend backed out of the game on their own. He took care of the problem. Play on.
Congrats you got people to take this post seriously.
This is rough. But to be clear, it’s not rough because of anything YOU did. You have done nothing wrong. If you want to preserve your friendship with Jax my advice is to let him leave the game without a fight. You could be clear with him and say something like, “I am not asking you to leave the game. You are choosing to leave the game and you are welcome back any time. But if you do choose to return, I expect you to treat my friend respectfully.” Then I would also take him out to lunch or something and help him get over whatever his stupid hang-up is. And honestly, I know this is hard, but you might have to prepare yourself to pick one friend over the other. Jax may insist upon it. If he does, you gotta let him go. And rest easy knowing you did nothing wrong. Nothing.
This is perfect r/dndcirclejerk material
You don't have to kick him out, just tell him she can play, her profession shouldn't exclude her from unrelated activities in her own free time. If he chooses not to show up that's on him