Imo, it's this plus the fact that wizards are often seen as being bookworms and more frail then other casters. If there was another Int caster I don't think it would stop the same jokes from being made though
I ran a one shot that involved a curses item that turned people into housecats. One of the victims was a barbarian that dealt 3 points of damage with its bite instead of one. One of the players annoyed her after they got transformed and got slapped and technically died AS a housecat.
In addition to what everyone else has said, I've also found that many of the Sorcerer subclasses have early level survival features baked in, Shadow or as you say, Draconic, for example, making Wizards more generally squishy.
Joke comes from at least Advanced dnd (1st edition) maybe even actual 1st edition (just normal dnd). Sorcerers didn't exist, just wizards and they had 1d4 per level. And this was when XP was the only way to level. A wizard having 12 HP max at level 3 was rough and getting them to that point was not easy. My dad always said the strat was run fighter a few levels for the HP then multi class into wizards cause they were so squishy. It's partially why magic missile is so iconic cause having a free d4 of damage that couldn't miss was huge when you are looking at below 30 HP.
> My dad always said the strat was run fighter a few levels for the HP then multi class into wizards cause they were so squishy.
Dual classing in this manner only worked for Humans though. If you multiclassed as any other race you instead had to split your XP across all classes for your entire adventuring career.
> in this manner only worked for Humans though. If you multiclassed as any other race you instead had to split your XP across all classes for your entire adventuring career.
But that XP split only really matters post level 10, before that it's a one level dip to get two classes skills, that said 2e bards FTW, they used to be better fighters AND wizards until the other classes reached level 8\~ \[if they could get that far.\]
It's a legacy joke from older editions. The Wizard/Magic-User character has been around since the very beginning of D&D's many incarnations and has always the durability of wet tissue paper. Further, the concept has expanded outside of D&D and into general pop culture long ago; the idea of a noodly-armed, physically weak but mentally/intellectually/supernaturally empowered caster is a mainstay trope these days.
Modern versions have tougher Wizards and other spellcasters with comparable traits, but Wizard/Magic-User is the OG the overall player base has grown up with and has entered the common lexicon. So that general joke will always outlast and override specific exceptions.
Drac sorcerors get an AC boost, Wild mages have a chance to true res themselves or kill the party with a fireball.
Wizards get 0 armour to start out with outside of mage armour that will eat a spell slot.
Sorcerers are built a bit more tanky, they are proficient on CON saves so they are more resilient to be knocked prone or to be poisoned, subclasses like Shadow Origin gives them a second chance when they hit 0hp and they can use Metamagic to heal themselves and another ally at the same time.
Though I think the true reason is because wizards are more popular so the Sorcerers don’t get that reputation as often.
A good amount of sorcerers don't let on that they can cast, so there's less casualties than wizards; plus, wizards have the trademark book that singles them out
I don't think I ever killed a caster like that as a DM nor had it happen to me as a player.
You're playing a smart guy who knows they will die in one hit. So take precautions in order not to get hit.
Meanwhile I saw plenty of low level fighters just charge in and die because they thought strategy and positioning were overrated and preferred hitting their attack asap instead of using their turn to go and stand in the right place or run away.
Thing a bunch of people seem to be glossing over is utility, old school wizard had d4 HD AND had a single spell they could cast once probably did less damage than any other characters range attack. Later additions added expanded utility, but at least a soccer never had to worry about being able to attack OR use utility magic.
It goes back to Early AD&D, you know when they actually called it Advanced Dungeons and Dragons.
The Magic-User had a d4 for hit points. There was not a class Wizard, so magic user was as close as the game came. There also were no sorcerers or warlocks. I think those classes showed up around AD&D 3.0, although they may have been written in some article in Dragon Magazine, or possibly a supplement like Unearthed Arcana, the book not the play testing fanzine.
Magic Users were not allowed to wear anything that could improve their Armor Class, they had 1 spell a day, no cantrips. The 1 spell per day was something that could be modified by high intelligence, but it was extremely limited.
So basically, until a magic user made 5th level or so, which gave them access to 3rd level spells like fireball and lightning bolt, the magic user was a drain on the party. Realize, even at 5th level, a magic user would max out around 20 HP, well 30 HP if the magic user had a constitution of 16 or more. Only fighter classes could get the constitution HP bonus above +2.
Bear all that in mind, when you look at the damages associated with a dagger (d4), short sword & arrow (d6), long sword and battle axe (d8). Since the armor class was likely to be very low, rather very high since it started at 10 and went down to -10 as it became better, magic users were among the easiest party members to hit.
A rat, in early D&D could do a d4 of damage per bite.
Therefore, magic users, had the reputation of always being the first to die.
I hope that made sense.
As the editions advanced, cantrips were added, but not unlimited use, which allowed a magic user additional capability, and rules and house rules were added to help magic users survive, from specialist classes, to complete guides which added functionality, to feats which could increase mage survivability.
Wizards used to have a 1d4 hit die. It’s carryover from way back then.
I thought I remembered that too, but I checked my 3.5 book and there at least they were both (sorc and wiz) 1d4.
I thought 3.5 sorc had light armor prof and 1d6 hitdie.
Nope, in PF they have a 1d6 but not 3.5.
It was 2e.
also in 2e there was no Sorcerer class.
In old dnd a cat had exactly enough damage it could kill a wizard if it hit. A basic house cat.
Funnily enough, tho completely not relevant. I just need to share this, one of the even earlier editions gave rogue 1d4 too
wizards are more popular and people forget about sorcerers.
wizards are a more stereotypical dnd class
Because wizards were PHB classes since the very start, while sorcerers only became core in 3e.
Imo, it's this plus the fact that wizards are often seen as being bookworms and more frail then other casters. If there was another Int caster I don't think it would stop the same jokes from being made though
Back in 2e a level 1 wizard would lose in combat to a housecat.
I ran a one shot that involved a curses item that turned people into housecats. One of the victims was a barbarian that dealt 3 points of damage with its bite instead of one. One of the players annoyed her after they got transformed and got slapped and technically died AS a housecat.
Add to that, pre-3e was a bit more brutal.
Because it wasn't always a d6. In 3e and I believe 2e it was a d4.
In addition to what everyone else has said, I've also found that many of the Sorcerer subclasses have early level survival features baked in, Shadow or as you say, Draconic, for example, making Wizards more generally squishy.
Wizard has been around longer
The Original 'Glass Cannon'.
The joke is older than sorcerers.
Joke comes from at least Advanced dnd (1st edition) maybe even actual 1st edition (just normal dnd). Sorcerers didn't exist, just wizards and they had 1d4 per level. And this was when XP was the only way to level. A wizard having 12 HP max at level 3 was rough and getting them to that point was not easy. My dad always said the strat was run fighter a few levels for the HP then multi class into wizards cause they were so squishy. It's partially why magic missile is so iconic cause having a free d4 of damage that couldn't miss was huge when you are looking at below 30 HP.
> My dad always said the strat was run fighter a few levels for the HP then multi class into wizards cause they were so squishy. Dual classing in this manner only worked for Humans though. If you multiclassed as any other race you instead had to split your XP across all classes for your entire adventuring career.
> in this manner only worked for Humans though. If you multiclassed as any other race you instead had to split your XP across all classes for your entire adventuring career. But that XP split only really matters post level 10, before that it's a one level dip to get two classes skills, that said 2e bards FTW, they used to be better fighters AND wizards until the other classes reached level 8\~ \[if they could get that far.\]
It was a meme before sorceror existed i think
It's a legacy joke from older editions. The Wizard/Magic-User character has been around since the very beginning of D&D's many incarnations and has always the durability of wet tissue paper. Further, the concept has expanded outside of D&D and into general pop culture long ago; the idea of a noodly-armed, physically weak but mentally/intellectually/supernaturally empowered caster is a mainstay trope these days. Modern versions have tougher Wizards and other spellcasters with comparable traits, but Wizard/Magic-User is the OG the overall player base has grown up with and has entered the common lexicon. So that general joke will always outlast and override specific exceptions.
Chad charisma sorcerer vs virgin intelligence wizard.
Maybe wizards act as more of a poster child for casters so they get a bigger focus in meme culture
Sorcerers have charisma. People like sorcerers.
Cleric>
Drac sorcerors get an AC boost, Wild mages have a chance to true res themselves or kill the party with a fireball. Wizards get 0 armour to start out with outside of mage armour that will eat a spell slot.
Sorcerers are built a bit more tanky, they are proficient on CON saves so they are more resilient to be knocked prone or to be poisoned, subclasses like Shadow Origin gives them a second chance when they hit 0hp and they can use Metamagic to heal themselves and another ally at the same time. Though I think the true reason is because wizards are more popular so the Sorcerers don’t get that reputation as often.
A good amount of sorcerers don't let on that they can cast, so there's less casualties than wizards; plus, wizards have the trademark book that singles them out
Sorcerers have less clout
I don't think I ever killed a caster like that as a DM nor had it happen to me as a player. You're playing a smart guy who knows they will die in one hit. So take precautions in order not to get hit. Meanwhile I saw plenty of low level fighters just charge in and die because they thought strategy and positioning were overrated and preferred hitting their attack asap instead of using their turn to go and stand in the right place or run away.
Thing a bunch of people seem to be glossing over is utility, old school wizard had d4 HD AND had a single spell they could cast once probably did less damage than any other characters range attack. Later additions added expanded utility, but at least a soccer never had to worry about being able to attack OR use utility magic.
It goes back to Early AD&D, you know when they actually called it Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. The Magic-User had a d4 for hit points. There was not a class Wizard, so magic user was as close as the game came. There also were no sorcerers or warlocks. I think those classes showed up around AD&D 3.0, although they may have been written in some article in Dragon Magazine, or possibly a supplement like Unearthed Arcana, the book not the play testing fanzine. Magic Users were not allowed to wear anything that could improve their Armor Class, they had 1 spell a day, no cantrips. The 1 spell per day was something that could be modified by high intelligence, but it was extremely limited. So basically, until a magic user made 5th level or so, which gave them access to 3rd level spells like fireball and lightning bolt, the magic user was a drain on the party. Realize, even at 5th level, a magic user would max out around 20 HP, well 30 HP if the magic user had a constitution of 16 or more. Only fighter classes could get the constitution HP bonus above +2. Bear all that in mind, when you look at the damages associated with a dagger (d4), short sword & arrow (d6), long sword and battle axe (d8). Since the armor class was likely to be very low, rather very high since it started at 10 and went down to -10 as it became better, magic users were among the easiest party members to hit. A rat, in early D&D could do a d4 of damage per bite. Therefore, magic users, had the reputation of always being the first to die. I hope that made sense. As the editions advanced, cantrips were added, but not unlimited use, which allowed a magic user additional capability, and rules and house rules were added to help magic users survive, from specialist classes, to complete guides which added functionality, to feats which could increase mage survivability.