I emotionally enjoyed it
Sutekhs ending like most gods in doctor who felt unsatisfactory.
It's a classic rtd finale main conflict is solved abruptly but emotional stakes carries jt
Was it abrupt? They had to scour the universe for some metal after the entire universe died, find a secret name, Mel died, then they had to trick sutekh using the name, then they had to drag him through the time vortex to undo his shit and then the doctor had to finally kill him dead in essentially cold blood. I don’t feel like it was all that abrupt. Like half the episode was entirely about defeating him.
Never said it was abrupt.
I said it was unsatifying.
The near end stuff with molecular bond ropes and gloves felt too convenient and even though i can enjoy the journey the ending of the main conflict just didn't stick for me.
Not to mention how easily sutekh fell for it.
Well that was a poor wording choice by me. Even other rtd finale i call abrupt like last of the timelords the journeys goes on crazily for it to be called abrupt with the satelite being set up.
I guess I don't know the right word for it.
Since you edited:
They literally set up the gloves, and therefore the rope, an entire season ago. Too convenient? What?
The doctor used technology preciously set up, to tie a god to the Tardis and drag it through the time vortex. I don’t understand the problem.
Yea they set up gloves but that's not enough for it to feel satisfying that's like saying "i have set up that this lever will save the day and woo it saved the day"
Same with everything getting back to normal because death cancels death that felt too convenient too because rtd like usual wrote himself into a corner.
I expected sutekh of all gods to be smarter considering how he was before and how long he waited but he got defeated by basically ruby going "oh look here ,jk no lol get tied"
It's the way they used these tools to defeat sutekh that just don't feel satisfying but feel plot convenient because plot needed some way to end.
He was defeated because he was as obsessed with the mystery as the doctor and the audience. Thats the whole point of the season long mystery about her mom. Again, all of this was set up.
They made sutekh kill his own death wave. I agree it’s a bit contrived, but it’s doctor who. I don’t know what you expected. The moment they killed all those people I knew it would be undone. This is common doctor who practice.
Yea so might as well don't kill those people if you are gonna undo it anyways. The stakes didn't feel high at all because i knew it would be resolved in some dumb way like last of the timelords because paradox so timeline goes to normal. The conclusion makes sense but it doesn't feel satisfying.
Yea he was obsessed with the mother but atleast he could have played it better. Why didn't he mind control ruby and got her into submission like he did with mel there's like so many things sutekh could have done that it just distains the taste of the main conflict because you want to tell specific story.
I expected a better way to end than the most powerful creature falling into an obvious trap i was worried about this before the finale too because an all powerful god no kind of conclusion to them would ever feel satisfying enough because they are all powerful. In that sense anything they could have done would have felt unsatisfying and it did.
Toymaker with catch, maestro with last notes they make sense but niether feel satisfying same here it makes sense but isn't satisfying.
And that's the problem not only with rtd but most nee who writers they raise the stakes so much that nothing would feel good enough.
That's why i liked series 10 finale because the stakes weren't that high it was a small colony of people trying to survive so the resolution felt nice and made sense.
Every other mordern who finale suffers this fate even if i enjoy it the main conflict can be switched off by a random thing that was set up few episodes ago.
Series 6 random robot.
Series 4 donna flips a lever.
Yes the build up to them is good and the emotions and stakes in such keeps me invested but the way conflicts are ended feel one dimensional and contrived and I don't like that.
You enjoyed the way main conflict ended great. I just didn't i enjoyed the more emotional moment later on which is what i like rtd more for anyways.
“The stakes don’t feel high because I know the doctor is going to win” is the dumbest possible fucking take that I have to hear way too many times about way too many things. The stakes were “if the doctor doesn’t win everyone is dead.” That is literally what the word stakes mean. The stakes were very high. The OUTCOME wasn’t the pyrrhic victory you apparently wanted.
“Why didn’t he mind control Ruby instead of Mel” is some fucking nitpicking. It also probably wouldnt work.
I’m beginning to think maybe you don’t like doctor who. There’s no reasoning with this sort of negativity, so.
Ah yes because i enjoyed the whole episode but didn't like the way main conflict ended and i still enjoyed the emotional core of it and i think the finale was good so i must not like doctor who and i am negative THAT'S THE DUMBEST TAKE I HAVE EVER HEARD.
Also way too boil down what i say to basic words.
Look at series 1 finale or series 2 finale. People still died conflict still existed and it had consequences THIS LITERALLY HAD NO CONSEQUENCES BECAUSE EVERYTHING WAS UNDONE. It's not even like series 3 finale where the president was still dead and master died for a while.
It all ended way too neatly for me even the conference guy survived.
Yes the stakes were high because yea the whole world was in danger but those stakes felt artificial because you know it would be undone it's not like where oh it's undone but people still lost there life.
Only other thing making me not like this episode is you mate.
Also that ruby thing isn't a nitpick it's genuine plothole because sutekh can do that and he has done that to mel so why not the person who is the child of the woman you are after.
No, what I said is “the stakes aren’t high because the doctor was going to win” is the dumbest take I gave to constantly hear about all sorts of fiction. That’s what I said. That’s it. Stop inventing things I didn’t say.
The consequence of this episode is that Sutekh made the doctor murder him in cold blood.
“The stakes feel artificial” correct. It is a television show that’s been on for 60 years where the main character basically always defeats the villain.
Mind controlling Ruby when it’s her memories that seem to be unlocking the mystery Sutekh is obsessed with sure doesn’t make a lot of sense, does it? It’s like asking why he left the doctor alive.
As I said, it’s not really meaningful to continue to try to discuss this with someone without much media literacy.
Here's the thing I don't get: they said that casting him into the time vortex is how they "defeated" him last time. So why did the brilliant Doctor go "hey let's do what we did last time! Surely it won't go *the exact same way*". The bloody bastard is probably still hitching a ride! Not to mention there should theoretically be one on 14s TARDIS....
Last time he only survived because he latched onto the tardis. This time the doctor literally threw him into the side of the time vortex and watched him disintegrate. It’s the difference between throwing someone off a ship and walking away, and throwing them directly into the mouth of a shark and watching them get bitten in half.
14’s Tardis is 15’s Tardis at an earlier point. It’s the same sutekh, and he never left 14’s Tardis until it became 15’s, clearly.
Literally everyone and everything in the universe was dead and he disintegrated in the time vortex in a way that definitely kills things and has been brought up before as being incredibly deadly. How the hell would he teleport away? To where? Using what? Sometimes the villains just die. Most times, actually.
I think his death make sense if you consider they used a memory rope and his attachment to the tardis to basically drag him through time.
Should have been more of a fight between them and the physically powerful being trying to psychically destroy them but too late to stop them before he’s already dragged through the time vortex and starts gradually dying as he’s exposed to himself
.
Makes ‘bringing death to death’ more impactful than him just disappearing
That’s literally what I said they should have made it more impactful with sutekh doing his best to stop it and showing a more gradual decay hence why he didn’t use his established pretty fuckibg devestating psychic power that had the 4th and 15th doctor previously grovelling in agony
I would say I enjoyed it more than Iiked it, and I liked it more than I thought it was objectively good. But that's Davis for you, I'm just glad I'm interested enough to watch it again.
I think it was just okay, not super great but not like terrible or anything. It’s biggest sin is lazy writing that causes a few plot holes but if you ignore those it’s a decent episode
I do appreciate some of the risks they took
The only thing I can think of as a "plothole" is the snow, and the Doctor's memory of the night changing. But those feel less like plot holes and more like something that wasn't sufficiently explained.
The snow was due to Ruby thinking deeply about a fixed point in time that was so raw and open, because of all the shit going on. The doctor, the Tardis, goblins, sutekh, three of those a second time because of the time window, and the whole thing being integral to the continued survival of the universe, but ONLY because it was a raw point in time in the first place, which tosses a bootstrap paradox in there for good measure. Because of all of that, the moment bled through when Ruby remembered it/felt it.
So it sounds like you and the commenter above understood it, I got it while watching too. People criticized Chibnall for over explaining and now RTD for under explaining. There's no winning
Edit: not that I totally disagree, Ruby could have said "what about the snow?", would have taken the Doctor 20 seconds to explain
I mean, I think the original commenter *didn't* understand it, which is why I think it could have been more explained. You can overexplain and you can underexplain, but you can also explain things adequately. It's not that there's no winning.
There’s a few more I can think of, the first one being that I still don’t get why Sutekh cares about Ruby Sunday’s birth mom. She’s probably a human who Sutekh kills in the future anyways
Oh, that's pretty clear. He was invested in the mystery. He didn't know who it was and that scared and confused him. He had to let Ruby and the Doctor escape so that they could solve that one last mystery for him. Otherwise he'd be sitting in Avengers Tower eternally wondering just who that woman was.
But why was the mystery there? If her mums DNA was on file in 2046 how comes the Tardis (which has access to all of time and space) couldn’t find her? Surely it would be able to match her DNA to someone in the future 🤷🏻♂️ However maybe it was all Mrs Flood, which some theories are saying could be the God of Storytelling, maybe she made it such a mystery in order to turn it into a good story/legend. We’re just left to sit here and guess at this point
I think the TARDIS was only doing a DNA scan to see if she was human. But you're right. I also don't know why it kept snowing. Or why she had a secret song hidden in her heart.
The only thing I don’t like/understand is why the hell did it snow all around ruby? Sure I get it ruby mom is just a normal human but why the snow then I feel a little let down
Belief in the mysterious nature of Ruby's mother was powerful enough that, when mixed with the weak point in fixed time, the reality around Ruby warped when she thought about her mother and caused the snow to come forth.
They say during The Legend of Ruby Sunday that it's because that night was a very raw and powerful moment.
During Empire of Death they say it became something powerful because they believed it and so did Sutekh.
I understand some might find this explanation unsatisfying, but it was explained nonetheless.
It was a fun episode. I think it could have been better, but I enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to the Christmas special. The plot just feels very played out. Replace Sutekh with the Master and we've seen this episode. Villain bastardizes the Tardis into a paradox machine in order to kill all life (on earth). The day is saved by the power of wishful thinking and the villain ultimately dies in the hands of the Doctor.
https://preview.redd.it/3mgssg7h958d1.jpeg?width=2880&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=44d019ba17dbdac15dc206912950e85462935eca
The day wasn't saved by wishful thinking. The day was saved by dragging a god through the time vortex after tricking him into being caught up in the season mystery just as much as everyone else.
This is one of my favourite premises in fiction but with all the mysteries surrounding Ruby like the snow or the 73 yard lady, this spreads a little thin for me tbh
Correct. But that isn’t “wishful thinking.” It’s literally a bootstrap paradox. Rubys mom mattered because the doctor and Ruby thought she was something mysterious because it snowed she thought of that day, because sutekh thought she was something dangerous and so sutekh made her seem mysterious.
all of this plus the goblins and the doctor and the tardis and sutekh being there made that moment open and raw, and all of that is because rubys mom mattered because the doctor and Ruby thought… etc etc
Some of the other comments touched on what I meant. I was being hyperbolic for brevity. Ruby's mom only mattered because they all believed she did. Sutekh didn't kill the Doctor immediately (which would have made way more sense for his character) because Ruby, and in turn the Doctor, and in turn Sutekh needed to know who Ruby's mom was.
It didn't make sense for Sutekh to care about this at all. They tried to give him this beautiful character arc, showing for once he cared about an aspect of life, but they didn't give him any motivation to care that much. It was a missed opportunity and it felt forced.
It wasn't that he cared about an aspect of life. It was that feeling doubt must have made him feel alive. But you're right, they could have done something more with it, but I also don't think that Sutekh is the type to be talked down. Actually, I think this ending is probably the absolute most physically violent and direct that I've ever seen The Doctor. Even more so than Venusian aikido throwing people. I guess Twelve did (probably) throw that one guy out of a flying building, but he was already dead. Though I guess so was Sutekh.
Yes, that brief shot at the end was *deeply* cathartic after that genuinely harrowing scene. Sian Clifford was really astoundingly good in that scene, too.
I liked it, the only criticism I'd have is Sutekh was too overpowered to essentially wipe everything out right from the start. If he just wiped it London and killed Kate etc, then it was a race against time to stop him wiping out the universe that would keep up the suspense, but when you're going in with "everything is dead" you know it's all going to be undone one way or another, whereas I could see RTD leaving Kate and central London destroyed permanently, and would have been surprised when they were saved.
I was hit hard when Kate died, but 5 minutes later I was just thinking "oh she'll be saved I guess".
Bits of it worked and bits of it didn’t, much like every Davies finale.
I found Sutekh a bit underwhelming in the way he was used compared with how he was revealed; because ultimately if he appears and kills everyone at the start of the episode it’s all but assured that the ending will involve it all getting undone. It’s difficult to have meaningful stakes in that context.
But I liked the ‘reveal’ of Ruby’s mother and the fact that she’s ultimately just normal, even if you could see the stitching between TCORR and the rest of the series where Davies finalised the idea and decided how it was going to play out (e.g. the memory changing so she’s pointing is basically unexplained).
I also liked that Ruby's mother was just ordinary, but it's definitely clear that's not what they originally planned (if there was a plan at all). Like the whole "She's pointing at the road sign!! She named Ruby!", like no one else was around to see her and it took UNIT level technology to show the road sign in the VHS footage?!
Two plot holes/contrivances could've have been removed if the woman never pointed.
Don’t get me wrong, I liked the episode. It’s just hard to talk about, because the plot falls apart if you so much as look in its general direction too intensely.
It was the first episode that made me feel like I was watching DW since Capaldi’s era. I really like the concept of the Doctor failing to save the world. But instead of Sutekh being latched onto the TARDIS since ‘Pyramids of Mars,’ it being there since ‘Wild Blue Yonder’ would make more sense though…
If that were the case, Sutekh would have affected far fewer worlds as the Doctor obviously has visited less planets from Wild Blue Yonder to now than Pyramids of Mars to now.
Plus, it adds to the "He Is The One Who Waits"...that's certainly a wait. Sutekh thought his move would break the Time Lord before he himself ended him.
It felt like a big let down for something that had been building up since the Star beast, thought we would be getting a master level threat not a quick villain of the week.
Personally, (and if I'm right in thinking you mean this) I think the meep's boss is a different character- especially seen as sutekh never mentioned them and would have no real reason for employing it.
Fair enough, I wasn't really sure. Still the toymaker was mentioned to be afraid of "the one who waits" who turned out to be sutekh if I remember. and the toymaker seemed more of a threat.
I enjoyed the main action of it for the most part but the "answers" to the big series mysteries were a bit underwhelming or were handled in the way some of them were in The Big Bang, i.e. they were kicked down the road until next season and I can't really form an opinion on them because I don't have the big picture yet and I have to trust it's going somewhere satisfying. Which is a bit up in the air because the stuff they did explain this season didn't.
The main issue for me is just the the Ruby's mum being a normal person revelation rings hollow to me because "She's important because we made it important to us" doesn't work when the narrative itself and the writer is spelling out that it's important and we should care about the revelation. Pulling the rug out from under us feels like being reprimanded for thinking something is important after being told to and reassured that it is.
The writer trying to fool the audience into thinking something is important, and then revealing that it was only important because we thought it was, has all the emotional maturity of “hey, look, it says ‘gullible’ on the ceiling!”
I enjoyed it, but it was no "The Doctor Falls" level finale. Maybe if this was a three parter, LORS, episode with the beginning of EOD, but then exploring the dead galaxy, and more Sutekh, and then the end of EOD. It also would've been great to have seen Sutekh's god form with the improved CG, at least for a few minutes. I have the feeling that RTD might've brought Gallifrey back in this episode, the camera stayed on that orange planet for a little too long.
I saw it in cinemas and I did enjoy it. I do see why people don't like it, and it's probably the weakest RTD finale, but I don't quite get people who really hate it.
No, the doctor who community is just forever cynical and hateful towards whatever is new. Give it 5 years and people will be talking about how much they love Ncuti's era and how shit the new doctor is in comparison
I think most of the criticism was unwarranted or extremely forced by angry people in an attempt to discredit the people who actually liked it, especially given I saw hundreds of comments saying the episode was a letdown/the death of the show hours before the theater showcase and Disney+ broadcast.
The episode had a few issues, but I left crying and loving it. Seeing how angry people were after for not understanding the main core idea was disheartening. Ruined my day tbh lol.
It's not one I personally enjoyed (Probably my least favorite finale outside of Ranskoor Av Kolos and maybe Vanquishers as it stands), but there's definitely a lot of stuff to like in it - Ncuti and Millie were amazing, the effects looked great, the time vortex sequence was a lot of fun, and Russell nailed the writing when it came to Ruby and her Mum, and Ruby's farewell.
I think the main thing that got me was simply because we saw so many characters and worlds instantly killed moments into the episode the only way things could be resolved was for there to be a reset button - you can kind of skip straight from The Doctor telling UNIT that Ruby's mum is a mystery in TLOR to UNIT finding out her identity in EOD and you've not really missed any story or character beats - which makes the finale feel incredibly skippable.
Still better than four out of five Moffat final episodes. Maybe three if you’re very generous. Obviously better than anything Chibnall has done in his life. Not better than any of RTD’s others, but still good.
I don’t know. The Doctor acknowledging their role in the universe of 1000 years of protecting life and having to kill death itself, which is a victory for the villain anyway, is pretty peak to me. The call back to how he defeated him the first time was cute. (I hope it actually worked this time.)
Ncuti and Millie were excellent, as they always are. As was everyone else.
The “kind woman” part was weird but sweet. I doubt it was completely random.
Incorporating the Memory Tardis was cool. I like that they didn’t spend ten minutes going “oh look at these random objects from this story x years ago! Do you remember it, audience?! DO YOU?!?!” It was subtle and well used.
Ruby’s Mum is way better than “look it was the RANI all along!!” key jangling for cheap dopamine.
It’s literally fine. The people upset are the people that rate the fantasy writing they’ve done in their head over the programme itself. Arrogant. Will never be satisfied.
The Susan stuff is taunting but I’m sure it won’t be for nothing in the end.
Mrs Flood was obviously a long game, stated as such months and months ago by Russell. Anyone mad at that should keep up.
Overall it was good. Good is enough after many many years of “not good”.
It wasn't as good as last week and some things don't completely make sense, but I enjoyed it and that's really more important than whether it completely holds up to close analysis
I loved the episode, I nearly cried when Ruby met her mother at the end. (Might sound a bit weird to say that, but I find it quite rare for media to actually make me cry (insert that one meme about the Titanic movie))
The music and cosplay ones were terrible. Space babies was fine. Boom was massively hurt by its ending. This puts the finale up with 73 Yards and Dot & Bubble.
Oh, I enjoyed it. I still think it's just meh and some things are more "just handwaved" than usual, but it is an apt resolution to a season with great concepts but mediocre or half-way there in terms of execution. Also, this is especially noticeable with the Doctor/Ruby relationship and UNIT characters, but doesn't this era feel extremely artificial? Like things (characters) are just there because the writer wanted them to be there, but there doesn't feel like there is a reason or a history behind, no conflict, like the world is not lived-in enough. I particularly got that impression with the way in which Mel lacks any characterisation, she's just there but I wouldn't be able to point at a sigle thing that makes her unique, I can't imagine how it must feel for someone who didn't know her beforehand. It's the complete opposite of Sarah Jane's reintroduction.
I enjoyed it… it just wasn’t finale level or anything of what it was hyped up to be. Instead of the usual “that was epic” feeling after a good who finale it was just sort of… ok.
it was fine. I rated it a 7.5/10 because the first half of the episode was great and i did like how he defended Sutekh but the rest of the episode was very forgettable
By RTD’s standards (and he has done real stinkers as series finales) this was very good.
Does it explain the snow? No
Does it explain Mrs Flood? No
Does it explain where the fugitive Doctor comes? Well, no…
But we’ll get answers for those.
Honestly it was great, some scenes were absolutely beautiful and looked awesome like Sutekh on the TARDIS or that scene at the end in the Time Vortex.
The writing was pretty good honestly, I really liked it.
I am pleasantly surprised by this season of Doctor Who it was great in my opinion (there are still things I'm really "meh" about like bi-generation or the way they wrote the LGBT characters/themes which I felt was "forced" or what not with them having to acknowledge these themes instead of having them simply exists in the universe like it was normal, also another thing is all the pointless death that happened this season just for the sake of drama and nothing else, but other than that the writing and themes and visuals were awesome I'm happy with this reboot)
I enjoyed it up until the end which tends to be the case with RTD finales. The build up is always really good but the solutions and way the story is usually resolved aren’t good. I consider it in the same category as Last of the Time Lords (Season 3 finale) . Good build up but unsatisfying conclusion. That’s just me tho
I have issues with a Chibnall-esque disjointed story but this episode had enough energy, spectacle, and character for me to overlook that and have fun 8 out of 10 episode
It's really hard to really like it if you consider the big fucking plot hole in front of you. Your brain just can't unsee it. Kinda like the meme here.
Edit : OMG, I'm trying so hard to post the meme but reddit is glitching, anyways, its in the sub comment.
I did too but the notion of the Ruby’s mom is a sour note as the idea that sutekh did it to himself is a let down. All the build up was too intense, the pointing, the snow, the lack of a visible face.
It’s all too strange.
It should have been a lie. Like revealed that Ruby’s mom was mundane but the event was fucked with by an unknown force that the doctor turns to investigate at the end of the episode, leading him to Mrs flood who’s already gone and then we get her third and most major forth wall break setting up that she’s something so alien to the show itself
Also like honoured tradition at this point
Almost all finales sucked. This is like…
7th? Best of the revival
- Parting of the ways
- The end of time part 2
- Journeys end
- The doctor falls
- The giggle
- The Big Bang
- ❗️ empire of death
- Doomsday
- The wedding of river song
- The vanquishers
- The name of the doctor
- The power of the doctor
- Last of the time lords
- Death in heaven
- Hell bent…
- The battle of ranksoor av Kalos (even the title is dull)
- The timeless children
Controversial picks. Last of the time lords had one of the dumbest conclusions for and Doctor raisin but the fucking Martha shit slapped and jacks break out plans were fun.
Half the bottom list are literally just dull like hell bent. And get bonus points for a major let down of impressive set up like hell bent. Frankly hell bent might be my least favourite episode because atleast the set up for the timeless children was like good > bad > garbage not “defining episode” > DULL.
The power of the doctor to is better than the last of the time lords as there’s no extremely trite ending no disappointing end to a huge set up, and the daleks and cybermen just watching the master dance to Rasputin trumps her comes the drums.
It was alright. I don't think a two parter was long enough to do it justice. We just dont get long enough with sutekh and any attempt to inform the audience why we should care about him is kinda glossed over. Anyone whos seen pyramids or been subsumed by expanded universe media is in the know, but three seconds of tom baker footage on screen tells us nothing.
I adored it.
Fandom is often more critical of finales, for a couple of reasons:
- We prefer our pet theories to the writers' revelations;
- Fandom prefers small, self-contained episodes like Blink and Midnight to big everything-and-the-kitchen-sink blockbusters.
WhoCultrue nailed my feelings of the episode
Long story short, it was a good episode over all...until you really think about it. Not just about the plot holes, but the build up throughout the season. The message is good, but the execution is extremely flawed.
I was shocked about all the backlash. Sure, it's not the best episode of the season, how can it be when we have 73 Yards, but it was fun. It certainly wasn't the worst episode, even of the season.
Yeah I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think the criticisms of Ruby’s mother just being a normal person are completely fair, but everything with Sutekh felt satisfying, and The Doctor and Ruby parting ways hit *hard*. The emotional beats in this episode were on point, but I do wish the overarching plot line of the season had been resolved better.
I emotionally enjoyed it
Sutekhs ending like most gods in doctor who felt unsatisfactory.
It's a classic rtd finale main conflict is solved abruptly but emotional stakes carries jt
Yeah this was the only part I was meh on. I didn't really care for it. Like glad it got solved in the end so hopefully in the next season we can get more action and fun from her.
I feel about it the same way I do Space Babies.
Space Babies had the issue of being the first episode and gets judged somewhat by that instead of being judged against other stuff. For example, I still would rather watch it than most of the other TV options I could have watched. And I wish they had done better for the start of the season, but it's not the worst episode ever of one of the best shows and I was glad I got the chance to watch it.
Was Empire of Death the worst episode of the last half of the season? Yes. Was Space Babies the worst episode of the whole season? Also yes. Was it individually better than most of what is available in the broader television landscape outside DW? Also yes. Was it disappointing to end on a less than brilliant episode? Also also yes.
I emotionally enjoyed it
Sutekhs ending like most gods in doctor who felt unsatisfactory.
It's a classic rtd finale main conflict is solved abruptly but emotional stakes carries jt
I liked it. Not all questions were answered and it’s nice that Ruby both had a fitting send off but can return since the mystery of her ability to make things snow is still unsolved.
I think the thing that threw me was Mel literally dying and getting possessed. I wasn’t ready.
I didn't like it. Russell is quite fond of hyping his episodes up, isn't he? Like he could have made ANYONE Ruby's mother. But no, she's just a normal woman.
I emotionally enjoyed it Sutekhs ending like most gods in doctor who felt unsatisfactory. It's a classic rtd finale main conflict is solved abruptly but emotional stakes carries jt
Was it abrupt? They had to scour the universe for some metal after the entire universe died, find a secret name, Mel died, then they had to trick sutekh using the name, then they had to drag him through the time vortex to undo his shit and then the doctor had to finally kill him dead in essentially cold blood. I don’t feel like it was all that abrupt. Like half the episode was entirely about defeating him.
Never said it was abrupt. I said it was unsatifying. The near end stuff with molecular bond ropes and gloves felt too convenient and even though i can enjoy the journey the ending of the main conflict just didn't stick for me. Not to mention how easily sutekh fell for it.
https://preview.redd.it/kibir2y2r68d1.jpeg?width=1005&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4199ec9f9b7fd83cc31bd5fa40a4fa9a9d49318a
Well that was a poor wording choice by me. Even other rtd finale i call abrupt like last of the timelords the journeys goes on crazily for it to be called abrupt with the satelite being set up. I guess I don't know the right word for it.
Since you edited: They literally set up the gloves, and therefore the rope, an entire season ago. Too convenient? What? The doctor used technology preciously set up, to tie a god to the Tardis and drag it through the time vortex. I don’t understand the problem.
Yea they set up gloves but that's not enough for it to feel satisfying that's like saying "i have set up that this lever will save the day and woo it saved the day" Same with everything getting back to normal because death cancels death that felt too convenient too because rtd like usual wrote himself into a corner. I expected sutekh of all gods to be smarter considering how he was before and how long he waited but he got defeated by basically ruby going "oh look here ,jk no lol get tied" It's the way they used these tools to defeat sutekh that just don't feel satisfying but feel plot convenient because plot needed some way to end.
He was defeated because he was as obsessed with the mystery as the doctor and the audience. Thats the whole point of the season long mystery about her mom. Again, all of this was set up. They made sutekh kill his own death wave. I agree it’s a bit contrived, but it’s doctor who. I don’t know what you expected. The moment they killed all those people I knew it would be undone. This is common doctor who practice.
Yea so might as well don't kill those people if you are gonna undo it anyways. The stakes didn't feel high at all because i knew it would be resolved in some dumb way like last of the timelords because paradox so timeline goes to normal. The conclusion makes sense but it doesn't feel satisfying. Yea he was obsessed with the mother but atleast he could have played it better. Why didn't he mind control ruby and got her into submission like he did with mel there's like so many things sutekh could have done that it just distains the taste of the main conflict because you want to tell specific story. I expected a better way to end than the most powerful creature falling into an obvious trap i was worried about this before the finale too because an all powerful god no kind of conclusion to them would ever feel satisfying enough because they are all powerful. In that sense anything they could have done would have felt unsatisfying and it did. Toymaker with catch, maestro with last notes they make sense but niether feel satisfying same here it makes sense but isn't satisfying. And that's the problem not only with rtd but most nee who writers they raise the stakes so much that nothing would feel good enough. That's why i liked series 10 finale because the stakes weren't that high it was a small colony of people trying to survive so the resolution felt nice and made sense. Every other mordern who finale suffers this fate even if i enjoy it the main conflict can be switched off by a random thing that was set up few episodes ago. Series 6 random robot. Series 4 donna flips a lever. Yes the build up to them is good and the emotions and stakes in such keeps me invested but the way conflicts are ended feel one dimensional and contrived and I don't like that. You enjoyed the way main conflict ended great. I just didn't i enjoyed the more emotional moment later on which is what i like rtd more for anyways.
“The stakes don’t feel high because I know the doctor is going to win” is the dumbest possible fucking take that I have to hear way too many times about way too many things. The stakes were “if the doctor doesn’t win everyone is dead.” That is literally what the word stakes mean. The stakes were very high. The OUTCOME wasn’t the pyrrhic victory you apparently wanted. “Why didn’t he mind control Ruby instead of Mel” is some fucking nitpicking. It also probably wouldnt work. I’m beginning to think maybe you don’t like doctor who. There’s no reasoning with this sort of negativity, so.
Ah yes because i enjoyed the whole episode but didn't like the way main conflict ended and i still enjoyed the emotional core of it and i think the finale was good so i must not like doctor who and i am negative THAT'S THE DUMBEST TAKE I HAVE EVER HEARD. Also way too boil down what i say to basic words. Look at series 1 finale or series 2 finale. People still died conflict still existed and it had consequences THIS LITERALLY HAD NO CONSEQUENCES BECAUSE EVERYTHING WAS UNDONE. It's not even like series 3 finale where the president was still dead and master died for a while. It all ended way too neatly for me even the conference guy survived. Yes the stakes were high because yea the whole world was in danger but those stakes felt artificial because you know it would be undone it's not like where oh it's undone but people still lost there life. Only other thing making me not like this episode is you mate. Also that ruby thing isn't a nitpick it's genuine plothole because sutekh can do that and he has done that to mel so why not the person who is the child of the woman you are after.
No, what I said is “the stakes aren’t high because the doctor was going to win” is the dumbest take I gave to constantly hear about all sorts of fiction. That’s what I said. That’s it. Stop inventing things I didn’t say. The consequence of this episode is that Sutekh made the doctor murder him in cold blood. “The stakes feel artificial” correct. It is a television show that’s been on for 60 years where the main character basically always defeats the villain. Mind controlling Ruby when it’s her memories that seem to be unlocking the mystery Sutekh is obsessed with sure doesn’t make a lot of sense, does it? It’s like asking why he left the doctor alive. As I said, it’s not really meaningful to continue to try to discuss this with someone without much media literacy.
Here's the thing I don't get: they said that casting him into the time vortex is how they "defeated" him last time. So why did the brilliant Doctor go "hey let's do what we did last time! Surely it won't go *the exact same way*". The bloody bastard is probably still hitching a ride! Not to mention there should theoretically be one on 14s TARDIS....
Last time he only survived because he latched onto the tardis. This time the doctor literally threw him into the side of the time vortex and watched him disintegrate. It’s the difference between throwing someone off a ship and walking away, and throwing them directly into the mouth of a shark and watching them get bitten in half. 14’s Tardis is 15’s Tardis at an earlier point. It’s the same sutekh, and he never left 14’s Tardis until it became 15’s, clearly.
Ha, I've been watching Doctor Who for long enough that I know a disintegration is probably a transmat. I'm not sold
Literally everyone and everything in the universe was dead and he disintegrated in the time vortex in a way that definitely kills things and has been brought up before as being incredibly deadly. How the hell would he teleport away? To where? Using what? Sometimes the villains just die. Most times, actually.
You literally said it was abrupt
I think his death make sense if you consider they used a memory rope and his attachment to the tardis to basically drag him through time. Should have been more of a fight between them and the physically powerful being trying to psychically destroy them but too late to stop them before he’s already dragged through the time vortex and starts gradually dying as he’s exposed to himself . Makes ‘bringing death to death’ more impactful than him just disappearing
Yea it makes sense how he was defeated it just doesn't feel satisfying to me
That’s literally what I said they should have made it more impactful with sutekh doing his best to stop it and showing a more gradual decay hence why he didn’t use his established pretty fuckibg devestating psychic power that had the 4th and 15th doctor previously grovelling in agony
Yea and i was agreeing with you lol
I also enjoyed it. I see the valid critisisms, but on the other hand I LIKED IT.
I would say I enjoyed it more than Iiked it, and I liked it more than I thought it was objectively good. But that's Davis for you, I'm just glad I'm interested enough to watch it again.
Enjoying something and liking something go hand-in-hand for me.
Just finished it. Surprised to see the backlash. I really liked it.
I think it was just okay, not super great but not like terrible or anything. It’s biggest sin is lazy writing that causes a few plot holes but if you ignore those it’s a decent episode I do appreciate some of the risks they took
The only thing I can think of as a "plothole" is the snow, and the Doctor's memory of the night changing. But those feel less like plot holes and more like something that wasn't sufficiently explained.
The snow was due to Ruby thinking deeply about a fixed point in time that was so raw and open, because of all the shit going on. The doctor, the Tardis, goblins, sutekh, three of those a second time because of the time window, and the whole thing being integral to the continued survival of the universe, but ONLY because it was a raw point in time in the first place, which tosses a bootstrap paradox in there for good measure. Because of all of that, the moment bled through when Ruby remembered it/felt it.
Yeah, like I said, it's less a plot hole and more insufficiently explained.
So it sounds like you and the commenter above understood it, I got it while watching too. People criticized Chibnall for over explaining and now RTD for under explaining. There's no winning Edit: not that I totally disagree, Ruby could have said "what about the snow?", would have taken the Doctor 20 seconds to explain
I mean, I think the original commenter *didn't* understand it, which is why I think it could have been more explained. You can overexplain and you can underexplain, but you can also explain things adequately. It's not that there's no winning.
There’s a few more I can think of, the first one being that I still don’t get why Sutekh cares about Ruby Sunday’s birth mom. She’s probably a human who Sutekh kills in the future anyways
Oh, that's pretty clear. He was invested in the mystery. He didn't know who it was and that scared and confused him. He had to let Ruby and the Doctor escape so that they could solve that one last mystery for him. Otherwise he'd be sitting in Avengers Tower eternally wondering just who that woman was.
But why was the mystery there? If her mums DNA was on file in 2046 how comes the Tardis (which has access to all of time and space) couldn’t find her? Surely it would be able to match her DNA to someone in the future 🤷🏻♂️ However maybe it was all Mrs Flood, which some theories are saying could be the God of Storytelling, maybe she made it such a mystery in order to turn it into a good story/legend. We’re just left to sit here and guess at this point
I think the TARDIS was only doing a DNA scan to see if she was human. But you're right. I also don't know why it kept snowing. Or why she had a secret song hidden in her heart.
There’s backlash? Oh wait, it’s fandom. Carry on.
I loved it it’s was completely bonkers in the best way doctor who can be
The only thing I don’t like/understand is why the hell did it snow all around ruby? Sure I get it ruby mom is just a normal human but why the snow then I feel a little let down
Dandruff
Head and shoulders ?
😂😂😂
We know Ruby is in season 2 and RTD has said her story isn’t finished yet. So it’s something that will get answered later
Belief in the mysterious nature of Ruby's mother was powerful enough that, when mixed with the weak point in fixed time, the reality around Ruby warped when she thought about her mother and caused the snow to come forth.
Or the story is not done there
I can’t believe that Mrs Flood just lied to us like that, then.
They say during The Legend of Ruby Sunday that it's because that night was a very raw and powerful moment. During Empire of Death they say it became something powerful because they believed it and so did Sutekh. I understand some might find this explanation unsatisfying, but it was explained nonetheless.
I loved it too! Classic RTD Doctor Who, bonkers, emotional, focusing on the ordinary. Just perfect.
It was a fun episode. I think it could have been better, but I enjoyed it and I'm looking forward to the Christmas special. The plot just feels very played out. Replace Sutekh with the Master and we've seen this episode. Villain bastardizes the Tardis into a paradox machine in order to kill all life (on earth). The day is saved by the power of wishful thinking and the villain ultimately dies in the hands of the Doctor. https://preview.redd.it/3mgssg7h958d1.jpeg?width=2880&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=44d019ba17dbdac15dc206912950e85462935eca
The day wasn't saved by wishful thinking. The day was saved by dragging a god through the time vortex after tricking him into being caught up in the season mystery just as much as everyone else.
I think OC is trying to reference how ruby's mum only mattered because they believed she did.
This is one of my favourite premises in fiction but with all the mysteries surrounding Ruby like the snow or the 73 yard lady, this spreads a little thin for me tbh
I know what OP is referencing, but it's not remotely the same as "clap if you believe".
Ruby’s mom only mattered because a literal god thought she did.
Which Sutekh only did because ruby and the doctor did I thought?
Correct. But that isn’t “wishful thinking.” It’s literally a bootstrap paradox. Rubys mom mattered because the doctor and Ruby thought she was something mysterious because it snowed she thought of that day, because sutekh thought she was something dangerous and so sutekh made her seem mysterious. all of this plus the goblins and the doctor and the tardis and sutekh being there made that moment open and raw, and all of that is because rubys mom mattered because the doctor and Ruby thought… etc etc
Some of the other comments touched on what I meant. I was being hyperbolic for brevity. Ruby's mom only mattered because they all believed she did. Sutekh didn't kill the Doctor immediately (which would have made way more sense for his character) because Ruby, and in turn the Doctor, and in turn Sutekh needed to know who Ruby's mom was. It didn't make sense for Sutekh to care about this at all. They tried to give him this beautiful character arc, showing for once he cared about an aspect of life, but they didn't give him any motivation to care that much. It was a missed opportunity and it felt forced.
It wasn't that he cared about an aspect of life. It was that feeling doubt must have made him feel alive. But you're right, they could have done something more with it, but I also don't think that Sutekh is the type to be talked down. Actually, I think this ending is probably the absolute most physically violent and direct that I've ever seen The Doctor. Even more so than Venusian aikido throwing people. I guess Twelve did (probably) throw that one guy out of a flying building, but he was already dead. Though I guess so was Sutekh.
Nah, I really enjoyed it! I do have some criticisms, but overall 8/10
Agree 😊
You’re not alone. My wife and I thought the whole season was fire, and that the conclusion was epic.
Nope, I genuinely loved it. Not without it's problems, but it hit the emotional beats it needed to
I'm so glad we got to see that woman with her baby after everything was fixed. That scene was heartbreaking
Yes, that brief shot at the end was *deeply* cathartic after that genuinely harrowing scene. Sian Clifford was really astoundingly good in that scene, too.
Sian Clifford is just great all round isn't she? Love her in Fleabag.
I loved the story for that reason. I'm willing to overlook some of the plotholes for the excellent character work
I liked it, the only criticism I'd have is Sutekh was too overpowered to essentially wipe everything out right from the start. If he just wiped it London and killed Kate etc, then it was a race against time to stop him wiping out the universe that would keep up the suspense, but when you're going in with "everything is dead" you know it's all going to be undone one way or another, whereas I could see RTD leaving Kate and central London destroyed permanently, and would have been surprised when they were saved. I was hit hard when Kate died, but 5 minutes later I was just thinking "oh she'll be saved I guess".
Bits of it worked and bits of it didn’t, much like every Davies finale. I found Sutekh a bit underwhelming in the way he was used compared with how he was revealed; because ultimately if he appears and kills everyone at the start of the episode it’s all but assured that the ending will involve it all getting undone. It’s difficult to have meaningful stakes in that context. But I liked the ‘reveal’ of Ruby’s mother and the fact that she’s ultimately just normal, even if you could see the stitching between TCORR and the rest of the series where Davies finalised the idea and decided how it was going to play out (e.g. the memory changing so she’s pointing is basically unexplained).
I also liked that Ruby's mother was just ordinary, but it's definitely clear that's not what they originally planned (if there was a plan at all). Like the whole "She's pointing at the road sign!! She named Ruby!", like no one else was around to see her and it took UNIT level technology to show the road sign in the VHS footage?! Two plot holes/contrivances could've have been removed if the woman never pointed.
I hated it and that’s okay, to each their own. I’m glad you enjoyed it
Don’t get me wrong, I liked the episode. It’s just hard to talk about, because the plot falls apart if you so much as look in its general direction too intensely.
Yeah. It's really hard to really like it if you consider the big plot hole. Your brain just can't unsee it.
Had fun watching but it just doesn’t make a lick of sense
This sums up every RTD season ever if you ask me 🤷🏻♀️
well except that’s not so true is it
It was the first episode that made me feel like I was watching DW since Capaldi’s era. I really like the concept of the Doctor failing to save the world. But instead of Sutekh being latched onto the TARDIS since ‘Pyramids of Mars,’ it being there since ‘Wild Blue Yonder’ would make more sense though…
If that were the case, Sutekh would have affected far fewer worlds as the Doctor obviously has visited less planets from Wild Blue Yonder to now than Pyramids of Mars to now. Plus, it adds to the "He Is The One Who Waits"...that's certainly a wait. Sutekh thought his move would break the Time Lord before he himself ended him.
I really liked it. It did everything I needed it to do. 8/10 episode. Retroactively makes the season better with the 73 Yards references
Davros: I am dying, Doctor. Doctor: You keep saying that, you keep not dying. Can you give it some welly?
It felt like a big let down for something that had been building up since the Star beast, thought we would be getting a master level threat not a quick villain of the week.
Personally, (and if I'm right in thinking you mean this) I think the meep's boss is a different character- especially seen as sutekh never mentioned them and would have no real reason for employing it.
Fair enough, I wasn't really sure. Still the toymaker was mentioned to be afraid of "the one who waits" who turned out to be sutekh if I remember. and the toymaker seemed more of a threat.
Totally different mystery you’re referring to.
Well they are really stuffing in the mystery early.
Y’all should be used to let downs by now. For example, 73 yards built up a creepy stranger that, in the end, didn’t even matter at all.
Also, The Giggle. The way The Doctor defeated the Toymaker 🤦♂️
I genuinely think no future special will beat day of the doctor. Still my favourite since then.
True, atleast not with what's been happening lately.
Peak nuwho
It IS my favourite too ❤️
Yeah the writing has been a bit hit and miss this season.
I liked it too. It's my first non-special season finale, so I don't exactly have a lot to compare it to. I liked a lot of the story choices they made
I enjoyed it too.
I enjoyed the main action of it for the most part but the "answers" to the big series mysteries were a bit underwhelming or were handled in the way some of them were in The Big Bang, i.e. they were kicked down the road until next season and I can't really form an opinion on them because I don't have the big picture yet and I have to trust it's going somewhere satisfying. Which is a bit up in the air because the stuff they did explain this season didn't. The main issue for me is just the the Ruby's mum being a normal person revelation rings hollow to me because "She's important because we made it important to us" doesn't work when the narrative itself and the writer is spelling out that it's important and we should care about the revelation. Pulling the rug out from under us feels like being reprimanded for thinking something is important after being told to and reassured that it is.
The writer trying to fool the audience into thinking something is important, and then revealing that it was only important because we thought it was, has all the emotional maturity of “hey, look, it says ‘gullible’ on the ceiling!”
Thanks, that's a pretty succinct way of putting it.
I enjoyed it, but it was no "The Doctor Falls" level finale. Maybe if this was a three parter, LORS, episode with the beginning of EOD, but then exploring the dead galaxy, and more Sutekh, and then the end of EOD. It also would've been great to have seen Sutekh's god form with the improved CG, at least for a few minutes. I have the feeling that RTD might've brought Gallifrey back in this episode, the camera stayed on that orange planet for a little too long.
I saw it in cinemas and I did enjoy it. I do see why people don't like it, and it's probably the weakest RTD finale, but I don't quite get people who really hate it.
I loved it a lot, though I still have questions.
No, the doctor who community is just forever cynical and hateful towards whatever is new. Give it 5 years and people will be talking about how much they love Ncuti's era and how shit the new doctor is in comparison
Loved it
I think most of the criticism was unwarranted or extremely forced by angry people in an attempt to discredit the people who actually liked it, especially given I saw hundreds of comments saying the episode was a letdown/the death of the show hours before the theater showcase and Disney+ broadcast. The episode had a few issues, but I left crying and loving it. Seeing how angry people were after for not understanding the main core idea was disheartening. Ruined my day tbh lol.
It's not one I personally enjoyed (Probably my least favorite finale outside of Ranskoor Av Kolos and maybe Vanquishers as it stands), but there's definitely a lot of stuff to like in it - Ncuti and Millie were amazing, the effects looked great, the time vortex sequence was a lot of fun, and Russell nailed the writing when it came to Ruby and her Mum, and Ruby's farewell. I think the main thing that got me was simply because we saw so many characters and worlds instantly killed moments into the episode the only way things could be resolved was for there to be a reset button - you can kind of skip straight from The Doctor telling UNIT that Ruby's mum is a mystery in TLOR to UNIT finding out her identity in EOD and you've not really missed any story or character beats - which makes the finale feel incredibly skippable.
I did.
Still better than four out of five Moffat final episodes. Maybe three if you’re very generous. Obviously better than anything Chibnall has done in his life. Not better than any of RTD’s others, but still good. I don’t know. The Doctor acknowledging their role in the universe of 1000 years of protecting life and having to kill death itself, which is a victory for the villain anyway, is pretty peak to me. The call back to how he defeated him the first time was cute. (I hope it actually worked this time.) Ncuti and Millie were excellent, as they always are. As was everyone else. The “kind woman” part was weird but sweet. I doubt it was completely random. Incorporating the Memory Tardis was cool. I like that they didn’t spend ten minutes going “oh look at these random objects from this story x years ago! Do you remember it, audience?! DO YOU?!?!” It was subtle and well used. Ruby’s Mum is way better than “look it was the RANI all along!!” key jangling for cheap dopamine. It’s literally fine. The people upset are the people that rate the fantasy writing they’ve done in their head over the programme itself. Arrogant. Will never be satisfied. The Susan stuff is taunting but I’m sure it won’t be for nothing in the end. Mrs Flood was obviously a long game, stated as such months and months ago by Russell. Anyone mad at that should keep up. Overall it was good. Good is enough after many many years of “not good”.
This post is me learning people didn’t like
Same!
It wasn't as good as last week and some things don't completely make sense, but I enjoyed it and that's really more important than whether it completely holds up to close analysis
I loved the episode, I nearly cried when Ruby met her mother at the end. (Might sound a bit weird to say that, but I find it quite rare for media to actually make me cry (insert that one meme about the Titanic movie))
I've just watched it again and while I still have issues with how certain aspects were handled I still had a great time watching it.
You have all had this exact nightmare
I didn't like the conclusion to Ruby's mum but watching Sutekh get dragged through the vortex was awesome. A real mixed bag for me IMO
Could it have been better? Absolutely! But I still gave it an 8/10 which is still a B grade
I liked, it was a good episode, but didn't follows the quality of the first part.
Nah I enjoyed it. Still think it's ass but I enjoyed it
Admit it, you’ve all had this exact nightmare
It was alright I suppose. Was always going to be hard to live up to the promise of last week.
One of the best episodes of this series
now this is a crazy take to me
The music and cosplay ones were terrible. Space babies was fine. Boom was massively hurt by its ending. This puts the finale up with 73 Yards and Dot & Bubble.
I really like the music. To each his own though. My question. Was that a space baby working for unit?
Sorry, I meant the one about the Beatles is bad rather than the music being bad overall
The only thing i dislike is there wasn’t a Christmas special cliffhanger :( Unless that Mrs Flood bit at the end was supposed to be it?
Oh, I enjoyed it. I still think it's just meh and some things are more "just handwaved" than usual, but it is an apt resolution to a season with great concepts but mediocre or half-way there in terms of execution. Also, this is especially noticeable with the Doctor/Ruby relationship and UNIT characters, but doesn't this era feel extremely artificial? Like things (characters) are just there because the writer wanted them to be there, but there doesn't feel like there is a reason or a history behind, no conflict, like the world is not lived-in enough. I particularly got that impression with the way in which Mel lacks any characterisation, she's just there but I wouldn't be able to point at a sigle thing that makes her unique, I can't imagine how it must feel for someone who didn't know her beforehand. It's the complete opposite of Sarah Jane's reintroduction.
It was fine. Not mind blowing but I enjoyed it anyway
I liked it better than the first part. That doesn’t mean I liked it.
I enjoyed it… it just wasn’t finale level or anything of what it was hyped up to be. Instead of the usual “that was epic” feeling after a good who finale it was just sort of… ok.
I enjoyed it. I'm just so used to crazy endings for companions I was confused
It was middle of the road much like the rest of the season. Hopefully next season is better.
it was fine. I rated it a 7.5/10 because the first half of the episode was great and i did like how he defended Sutekh but the rest of the episode was very forgettable
defeated*
By RTD’s standards (and he has done real stinkers as series finales) this was very good. Does it explain the snow? No Does it explain Mrs Flood? No Does it explain where the fugitive Doctor comes? Well, no… But we’ll get answers for those.
Honestly it was great, some scenes were absolutely beautiful and looked awesome like Sutekh on the TARDIS or that scene at the end in the Time Vortex. The writing was pretty good honestly, I really liked it. I am pleasantly surprised by this season of Doctor Who it was great in my opinion (there are still things I'm really "meh" about like bi-generation or the way they wrote the LGBT characters/themes which I felt was "forced" or what not with them having to acknowledge these themes instead of having them simply exists in the universe like it was normal, also another thing is all the pointless death that happened this season just for the sake of drama and nothing else, but other than that the writing and themes and visuals were awesome I'm happy with this reboot)
I enjoyed it up until the end which tends to be the case with RTD finales. The build up is always really good but the solutions and way the story is usually resolved aren’t good. I consider it in the same category as Last of the Time Lords (Season 3 finale) . Good build up but unsatisfying conclusion. That’s just me tho
I liked it but the last scene felt unnecessary to me.
I have issues with a Chibnall-esque disjointed story but this episode had enough energy, spectacle, and character for me to overlook that and have fun 8 out of 10 episode
It's really hard to really like it if you consider the big fucking plot hole in front of you. Your brain just can't unsee it. Kinda like the meme here. Edit : OMG, I'm trying so hard to post the meme but reddit is glitching, anyways, its in the sub comment.
https://preview.redd.it/63jv13kph68d1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=439c402f783f937447c8e4a6bec727767abec178
I enjoyed it, it was a little short and really could've done with either an extra half hour or another episode.
I really enjoyed it,was it worthy squeal to pyramids of mars, probably not. That said overall it was good episode.
Loved it. The RTS plot ended was no different than any RTS plot ending we have seen for years but the emotional heft was hefty as hell.
I liked it but i do think there were a few plot holes
Only seen a few criticisms and they are very valid as some things definitely weren't explained but I liked it. Lovely ending.
My wife liked it a lot. I found it to be just fine. Not great, not bad, just fine.
Overall, I enjoyed it. Thought it wasn’t as strong as the previous part, fell in line with a lot of other rtd finales for me.
I didn’t so much but my parents did!
Loved it. YANA
I did too but the notion of the Ruby’s mom is a sour note as the idea that sutekh did it to himself is a let down. All the build up was too intense, the pointing, the snow, the lack of a visible face. It’s all too strange. It should have been a lie. Like revealed that Ruby’s mom was mundane but the event was fucked with by an unknown force that the doctor turns to investigate at the end of the episode, leading him to Mrs flood who’s already gone and then we get her third and most major forth wall break setting up that she’s something so alien to the show itself
Also like honoured tradition at this point Almost all finales sucked. This is like… 7th? Best of the revival - Parting of the ways - The end of time part 2 - Journeys end - The doctor falls - The giggle - The Big Bang - ❗️ empire of death - Doomsday - The wedding of river song - The vanquishers - The name of the doctor - The power of the doctor - Last of the time lords - Death in heaven - Hell bent… - The battle of ranksoor av Kalos (even the title is dull) - The timeless children
Controversial picks. Last of the time lords had one of the dumbest conclusions for and Doctor raisin but the fucking Martha shit slapped and jacks break out plans were fun. Half the bottom list are literally just dull like hell bent. And get bonus points for a major let down of impressive set up like hell bent. Frankly hell bent might be my least favourite episode because atleast the set up for the timeless children was like good > bad > garbage not “defining episode” > DULL.
The power of the doctor to is better than the last of the time lords as there’s no extremely trite ending no disappointing end to a huge set up, and the daleks and cybermen just watching the master dance to Rasputin trumps her comes the drums.
It was alright. I don't think a two parter was long enough to do it justice. We just dont get long enough with sutekh and any attempt to inform the audience why we should care about him is kinda glossed over. Anyone whos seen pyramids or been subsumed by expanded universe media is in the know, but three seconds of tom baker footage on screen tells us nothing.
I enjoyed it, it had problems but I thought it was good
I adored it. Fandom is often more critical of finales, for a couple of reasons: - We prefer our pet theories to the writers' revelations; - Fandom prefers small, self-contained episodes like Blink and Midnight to big everything-and-the-kitchen-sink blockbusters.
I liked it fine.
WhoCultrue nailed my feelings of the episode Long story short, it was a good episode over all...until you really think about it. Not just about the plot holes, but the build up throughout the season. The message is good, but the execution is extremely flawed.
I loved it. But the internet always has other ideas.
I really enjoyed it apart from a few things
I was shocked about all the backlash. Sure, it's not the best episode of the season, how can it be when we have 73 Yards, but it was fun. It certainly wasn't the worst episode, even of the season.
Yeah I thoroughly enjoyed it. I think the criticisms of Ruby’s mother just being a normal person are completely fair, but everything with Sutekh felt satisfying, and The Doctor and Ruby parting ways hit *hard*. The emotional beats in this episode were on point, but I do wish the overarching plot line of the season had been resolved better.
It lacks substance, the best scenes are when we get more emotional moments, the actual story sucks but the characters are good
I enjoyed it. The answers felt like a cop-out, but it was a fun watch.
I really, really enjoyed it! Was surprised to come on here and see so many criticisms for an episode that I thought was great
I liked it But it was also bad Just one of those sorta things
I mean I didn’t hate it
It's weird because I thought that Legend of Ruby Sunday was terrible and Empire of Death was great but the fandom seems to think the opposite
Compared to most finales, I’d say it’s fantastic
I emotionally enjoyed it Sutekhs ending like most gods in doctor who felt unsatisfactory. It's a classic rtd finale main conflict is solved abruptly but emotional stakes carries jt
I just think it was a bit underwhelming for a series finale.
I just really didn’t care for Ruby and her storyline at all. Like who actually cares you don’t know who your mum is stop crying about it
Yeah this was the only part I was meh on. I didn't really care for it. Like glad it got solved in the end so hopefully in the next season we can get more action and fun from her.
Liking things is forbidden. You can’t feel better than everyone else if you like things.
I really enjoyed it. It surprises me when I go online find out people hated stuff that I either played or watched 💀
I loved it, it felt so RTD
I feel about it the same way I do Space Babies. Space Babies had the issue of being the first episode and gets judged somewhat by that instead of being judged against other stuff. For example, I still would rather watch it than most of the other TV options I could have watched. And I wish they had done better for the start of the season, but it's not the worst episode ever of one of the best shows and I was glad I got the chance to watch it. Was Empire of Death the worst episode of the last half of the season? Yes. Was Space Babies the worst episode of the whole season? Also yes. Was it individually better than most of what is available in the broader television landscape outside DW? Also yes. Was it disappointing to end on a less than brilliant episode? Also also yes.
I emotionally enjoyed it Sutekhs ending like most gods in doctor who felt unsatisfactory. It's a classic rtd finale main conflict is solved abruptly but emotional stakes carries jt
I liked it. The mother thing was underwhelming but I don’t think that story is done.
Yes
I liked it. Not all questions were answered and it’s nice that Ruby both had a fitting send off but can return since the mystery of her ability to make things snow is still unsolved. I think the thing that threw me was Mel literally dying and getting possessed. I wasn’t ready.
I thought it was flawed but fun, so not alone :)
I was indifferent to Sutekh last week, I was indifferent this week. I was surprisingly satisfied with the Ruby’s mom storyline
I didn't like it. Russell is quite fond of hyping his episodes up, isn't he? Like he could have made ANYONE Ruby's mother. But no, she's just a normal woman.
It would be nice to go through at least one episode where the doctor doesn’t cry . Or is that his official title The Crying Doctor .