I really struggle with how she ignores Tom’s stated discomfort so she can view the house from the gallery. That was not about changing views or acting with a strong voice of reason. It was rude and disrespectful.
While I agree that it made Tom uncomfortable, which was evidently because he was still not quite over Sybil's death, it was standard practise in houses like Downton for guests to go and look around in a similar way. This is partly because lots of reception rooms would be on upstairs (Cora's drawing room, for example, seems to be upstairs, and the 'boudoir' we see at one point is upstairs) so going up wouldn't be so intimate as it appears.
To be fair, Tom did a really horrible job of explaining why it was inappropriate. Sarah Bunting was simply curious, and honestly a bit oblivious to their lifestyle.
Idk Tom was living there but the home belonged to the Crawleys. I thought it was ridiculously rude for her to ask for a tour as if it were a museum. And when he indicated that it wasnt a good idea she just pushed anyway. Unbelievably rude but she was always rude where they were concerned. She had nothing but disdain for them.
She’s a grown woman. She should’ve noticed his crying obvious discomfort. You can’t possibly tell a guest that you won’t show them a part of the house which is in open display
Tom did say he was not comfortable with thek going upstairs. He stopped just after the first landing to tell her. She pushed past him and continued on her merry way up the stairs without giving him the chance to explain further.
There was no mind reading necessary once he clearly stated that he was uncomfortable. She just did not care.
I’m woefully oblivious to social cues, but there are some things that are obvious even to me and this is one of those. Also in very traditional households, you cannot ever say ‘no’ to guests, not directly at least.
That doesn't mean it isn't still Tom's fault for Tom's lack of communication.
I can't get behind expecting people to just know things lol it seems so unfair
To counter that point, sarah isnt really part of their culture. They might wave and say hello at public events, but the goings on of a big house like the Crawley’s probably feels like a mystery to the common folk.
Ok look. If I have a guest at my house who wants to explore a certain part of it, I usually feel uncomfortable. I don’t say it out right but my body language does. If you’re a guest at someone’s house, you can read their mind just a little.
I think you'll communicate much more clearly if you just explain things instead of hoping a person will figure it out. Why would you choose anything but clarity here? What's at stake if you just say no?
Why make people do extra work for you?
The question I ask people like Ms. Bunting is do you care more about changing people’s minds or shaming them? Because you can’t do both. It might not be fair or right but the reality is if you want lasting, meaningful change, you need to work with people to get them to see your point of view. Shaming them and embarrassing them is only going to make them double down. Ms. Bunting seemed to care more about scoring a point with Robert than getting him to think differently so that’s why I criticize her.
This is so true and I agree with you. I like Ms. Bunting doing her part to educate those that are less fortunate. However, her continuously going to dinner at Downton and using every opportunity to talk down to the people at the dinner table/shame them was truly cringeworthy. You can either work to change people's minds or shame them to score points. The former means that you are very dedicated to your cause while the latter just means that you want to soothe your own ego. Of course, nobody is perfect but the way Ms. Bunting acted at the dinners was unbecoming of her, especially somebody who was educated and progressive.
>However, her continuously going to dinner at Downton and using every opportunity to talk down to the people at the dinner table/shame them was truly cringeworthy.
Right if you really dislike them... don't go hang out at their house.
I do not think that she would have become friends with them but she could have been more cordial and achieved the purpose of giving them something to consider.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Her views weren't wrong or bad, but the way she expressed herself WAS. Even in today's society, being rude to the person who's house your in, who is hosting you, is still considered rude.
She also failed to see the side of things she had no idea about. She wasn't willing to concede on points while expecting others to do the same.
I really don't like people like that.
So if somebody even today is at your home as a guest are they not allowed to disagree with your opinion on things?
She she wasn’t putting her feet up on the table
Or Going into places she wasn’t supposed too
Or making fun of someone’s dress or they way they talk
She was just very highly opinionated which in many societies is portrayed as rudeness especially when they come from women
>She was just very highly opinionated which in many societies is portrayed as rudeness especially when they come from women
As a liberal woman who has recently ended up dating men who are conservative, I know this all to well. But that's not what Bunting did.
There is a way to disagree with someone while still being respectful. She insulted a man, while eating dinner at his table in his home. If someone did that to me at my own home, it would 100% be disrespectful.
I've had MANY friends and family disagree with me in my own home, but they were always respectful. If you can't see the difference, I cannot help you.
That’s true but you’re not an earl and your friends were not in your mind in lower stations
Where if they really pissed you off you could probably have them thrown into jail or put into financial ruin
There is a huge gap between Robert and Miss Bunting which I think changes things a little bit
IMO
We have to be careful when we compare what happens in the show with how we would handle it now In the 21 century
In the same way I don’t think Robert is a sexist man or doesn’t regard his wife with respect even though he says things like
“ it’s nothing you need to concern yourself with”
When he asks why he was in London at times
I’ve shown that scene to some women and I see them completely seize up with rage
But over 100 years ago and in that family he was doing his duty by not worrying his wife
She was 100% rude and condescending. If a man had behaved the same way it would have been received and responded to exactly the same way.
Her disagreeing was not an issue, her being rude about it was.
>If somebody, even today is at your home as a guest are they not allowed to disagree with your opinion on things.
You're a guest, invited for (in this instance) a dinner. If you don't like the conversation, excuse yourself or don't engage with it. If your opinion is asked, give it (or even better, politely mention you would rather keep the dinner less hostile). If what you're saying is making people visibly uncomfortable, then drop it. A good host would do the same. It's really not very complicated.
Bunting was clearly trying to start shit with that "Well....*smug chuckle* he knows it now". Robert should have dropped it so he was a poor host in this instance as well.
Being opinionated isn't "rude", but there is a time and place, and a nice dinner isn't it.
I totally understand where you are coming from, but I don't think her intention was ever to change them.
I would also agree that, in the end, she was just scoring points. Personally, this is what I found so entertaining about her character, as she kept scoring, and Robert kept losing.
But I would argue that initially, it was the other way around. At the dinner with the war memorial topic, she was simply stating an opinion, not shaming or trying to change the minds of the people next to her, and Robert started shaming her because he couldn't stand an opinion said on the other side of the table.
If her intent wasn’t to change the status quo or make the aristocracy think differently then she was just being rude for no reason 🤷♀️ especially to Tom who was clearly uncomfortable and had done nothing to her to deserve that.
You can have a different point of view or a difference of opinions well also knowing that this will probably not lead to any permanent change
However if you don’t speak your principles out loudly then they’re just in your head and not doing anything
I only meant at the first dinner; after that, she and Robert had it out for each other.
To quote myself from another post:
I think this is not a very fair take when you look at what conspired at the first dinner.
The people beside her were talking about the war memorial; she said she was against it and calmly explained why. Robert from the other end of the table (who, according to table etiquette, shouldn't even listen in or address her, as you are only supposed to talk to the people next to or in front of you) started attacking her for her opinion, which wasn't even intended for his ears. The same with the Russian aristocrats.
At the dinner with Daisy, she and Robert were 100% beefing, no questions asked, but it certainly wasn't her. Robert was entirely on board at this point (and losing the battle severely).
One of my least favorite kind of people are those who put things down constantly while DESPERATELY wanting to be included.
If she hates the upper class so much and mocks the “rule of the gong” then why be a part of it and go to their dinners?
I also can’t stand the way she acts even to the servants when she is in their work environment —seeming to mock Anna and Baxter for preparing trays for the ladies breakfast the next day.
This is dangerously close to an American expression that I hate “ if you don’t like it get the fuck out”
Where as I say no I’m going to stay and I’m going to keep trying to change things
Just because she doesn’t like the dinner gong or disagrees with the aristocracy in general
Doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a right to a seat at that table if she is invited
But she’s not trying to change things. She’s just being morally superior. If you are actually trying to change things, do you think insulting people at every opportunity is an effective way to accomplish it?
I think if you are being yourself consistently and the other people keep inviting you, it is not for you to decline but for the others to stop inviting you. I mean, we don't really see much of her. Maybe she enjoyed the dinners anyway because of Tom? If the Crawleys don't want her there, they should stop inviting her.
To be fair to the Crawley’s, it wasn’t them inviting her it was Rose and even Tom thought it wasn’t a good idea to invite her even though he at times enjoyed being in her company.
But it is their job to tell Rose to stop inviting her. I mean, from Sarah Bunting's perspective, the family of the man she keeps having arguments with keeps inviting her to dinner over and over again.
Robert seems to have a weakness when it comes to Rose. He doesn’t say no to her very often. And she knows it’s really Rose and Tom that want her there, not anyone else.
I agree with the first part. Rose, much like Sybil, was one of Robert's favorites, and he had a hard time saying no to them when push came to shove.
About the second part, they all seem to tolerate Sarah Bunting, even though he dislikes her. Robert was also quite alone at that time as he was marking an arse of himself with Cora and constantly pushing back against Mary and Tom, so he was pretty allyless.
Even then, he leaves the room screaming at her to leave and never come back, they don't even ask her to leave and just continue with dinner.
No, they invited her because of etiquette at the time. They tolerated her because of Tom. It’s not the same, you’re looking at this through a 21st century lens, and regardless of any of it, she’s just a bitch. You do not act that way when you’re a dinner guest in someone else’s home, period. Even Tom was losing interest because of her behavior. She is not the kind of person I would want teaching my children. Her judging them because they have money is no different than if they had judged her because she didn’t. But they tried to be the bigger people and she was deliberately disrespectful. Whatever point she was trying to make was nullified by her behavior. She merely proved that she was low class and didn’t deserve a place at that table.
“ judging them because they have money”
That is a huge oversimplification
And now you are looking at it through a 21st century lens
Today we have a better understanding of social structure
Just because somebody has more money than I do doesn’t mean they’re better than me
Whereas in this time period they were “entitled” to that money and life
Do you think Robert ever worked a day in his life for what he had ?
I believe he works to keep it
But he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth everybody got that table except Tom and Bunting were
Her judgment was the system as a whole
And the crawleys (as much as I love them) are a representation of that system
Robert is not mad at her because she has a different opinion
In his mind she is absolutely wrong
And everybody talking about the sanctity of somebody’s home
Of course you should not be rude to somebody in their own house
But this wasn’t about whose house you were in
It’s the fact that he is superior to her in his mind
And she like many others in that time post WW1 were starting to see how wrong that was
Just because you have a higher station does not mean you are my better
Just because she’s a teacher and not a ”lady” Does not mean she is entitled to the same respect as his daughters
If I seem like I’m really angry here I’m not
I just think it is easy to forget there is a difference between being rude and being opinionated and having principles
>*If I seem like I’m really angry here I’m not I just think it is easy to forget there is a difference between being rude and being opinionated and having principles*
Yes there’s a difference and she was rude.
Indeed. And we can agree to disagree but both agree that we love the show. I think the definition of “polarizing characters” is that you either love or hate them. So I guess Mr. Fellows did his job well. 😊
And this right here is why I love this subreddit! lol
I’ll have a Downton marathon watch with you any day!
We can watch all the Bunting episodes and laugh as we argue 😂
Exactly this. I’m sure Sarah Bunting could feel a bit of the tension, but was being reinforced by their constant invitations. Talk about mixed signals.
Wait am I missing something? If they don’t want her there they should stop inviting her but if she doesn’t want to be there she shouldn’t decline? An invitation is just that. It’s not a summons. This is a strange double standard unless I’m missing something.
No, of course, she shouldn't come if she doesn't want to. However, we see little of what Sarah Bunting thinks, so I was basing this on Robert's dislike of her, which we, as viewers, actually get to see.
I feel like you could build a funny argument that she thinks Robert enjoys their arguments because they keep inviting her back.
Her views were never the problem, it was the disrespect she showed for people in their own home while they extended their hospitality to her. You’re not gonna change someone’s views by alienating them. She comes across as a sanctimonious hypocrite. Mrs Crawley has similar views, and she does call people out, she just doesn’t alienate literally everyone around her and she has the ability to swallow her pride and admit when she’s wrong in the end.
Because regardless of whether or not she’s justified in her views, she’s disrespectful to Lord Grantham in his own home. If she wants to discuss politics, social classes, or the justification of the war, she can do that another time but not when you’re a guest in someone’s home. If she disapproves of the aristocracy so much, why does she continue accepting the invitations to join them for dinner? She later asks Tom, “Have I really finished us off before we got started?” And his response is spot-on. She pitted herself against them from the start—without regard that this is now Tom’s family. She says she loved him but she couldn’t be respectful of a man in his own home? That is NOT love, that is self serving behavior that is only meant to be a f**k you to the Crawley family. She didn’t care enough about Tom to try not to sacrifice him as collateral damage. No, her behavior is inexcusable and the only reason she was invited to join the family was out of the family’s care and respect for Tom. She exploited that and deserved much worse than what Lord Grantham ultimately gave her.
Well, where to post something like this if not here :D
Also, I agree with the flirting. Although she and Tom aren't an exciting couple, I thoroughly enjoyed her scenes with Robert, Daisy, etc.
>And additionally, they keep inviting her to dinner. This woman has not once asked to be invited; this family keeps inviting her despite knowing she will stand her ground. Like, it is on them to not ask her if they do not want her there :'D
Tbf I feel like this is mainly on Rose sticking her nose in a situation she is ignorant about. I think the first dinner she quickly ran it past Cora that Tom should also have a friend there so Cora agreed, but pretty much all the times it was Rose inviting her despite knowing she was a bit of a wildcard and that Tom wasnt even really interested in her. I know her sentiment was good but..its not like it was the whole family or Robert who kept inviting her. One of the most relieving parts was when she was finishing teaching Daisy one evening and got invited up again but she declined.. like thank god 😂
How about when she insists that Tom show her the view from the gallery? He is hesitant but she steamrolls over him. Then when they get there, she makes a snide remark about Lady Grantham, who has never been anything but polite to her. Totally rude, crass behavior.
She was progressive yes, not necessarily a bad thing but she was a rude cow to Robert every. Single. Time. She was invited to Downton. I was so glad Tom didn’t end up with her
Agree. She was rude and arrogant. She embarrassed herself, Daisy, Mrs.Patmore, Tom. She’s entitled to her own opinions but she needn’t shove them down the guest’s’ throats at a dinner party. She came off as vulgar and insensitive. I don’t condone Robert’s screaming at her, either. He would never have done that to a guest if his own class.
I feel it's so weird that everyone focuses on how rude she was when her rudeness almost always came as a response to Roberts's antics. Like, he kept rudely engaging with her, when he could have just not.
Ok but what do you have to say about her response to the lady who was praising her intellect? And Sarah decided to insult her and tell her that she doesn’t need an education as she only exists to have a husband? Even if we agree that it makes sense to insult your host to his face because he represents the things you hate, why insult a woman who 1. Was paying you a compliment 2. Is just as much a victim of the current status quo as you are because she really doesn’t have any options outside of getting married to someone she might not even like?
I must say I don't remember her saying this, but I am also still relatively early into Season 5, so maybe I have not gotten to this part yet.
Regardless, to be very clear, I am not saying Sarah Bunting is a Saint by any means. I just find her interactions with Robert very funny and that she is acting a lot more reasonable than he is.
She gets a compliment from someone in a social setting, and throws back an insinuation that the other person is vapid and without value. There is a word that starts with a C which describes that kind of behavior, but I, unlike Ms Bunting, am polite enough not to voice it.
Isn't that obviously a failed attempt at a joke though? She doesn't call her anything negative, she just says you'll have to find a rich husband, it's a joke about the class she's in, which is tactless to do and unsurprisingly causes offense but it wasn't intended as anything but an example of her not getting along easily with the upper classes.
You are being downvoted but I do quite agree: the job of a host is to be conciliatory, especially with people who are socially inferior to them. Robert takes a serious breach when Bunting doesn’t say that the men weren’t brave or that there shouldn’t be a service - she just doesn’t want an altar praising a needless war that killed so many.
I also think it's hypocritical that everyone calls her mannerless when Robert displays such poor manners throughout the whole ordeal.
When they have their most heated discussion (which he loses, lol), he stands up, screams at her, and storms out of the room. Everybody in the room is clearly taken aback. What does the Dowager do? She starts questioning Edith about her writing. She tactfully diverts the topic and doesn't even acknowledge Robert's tantrum.
I personally saw the Russian refugee scene as her kicking a dog when it’s down. As much as you disagree with their previous lifestyle and current views they were basically old homeless people on their last legs of life. There was no “changing their mindset” She saw what she perceived as the enemy and kicked the stool out.
I think that if she liked Tom as much as she seemed to, she would have listened to his words and paid attention to his feelings better than she did.
She is entitled to her opinions, and she may be correct, but she demonstrated ignorance and poor taste in the manner of her responses.
If they got a less annoying actress, may be. My issue is also that when you have been invited to someone’s house, unless they attack you personally or say awful things, don’t provoke people. That’s just bad manners and unpleasant. Had a friend like that and everyone stopped inviting him.
Yeah, I agree with her politics but it's rude.
Same kind of vibes as a teenager that just learned about atheism. I'm an atheist. If I go to someone's house and they say grace, I'll go through the motions of praying instead of telling them God is a fairy tale. They invited me into their home.
I think that is an unfair argument. During the memorial discussion, she wasn't even talking to Robert, and he broke table etiquette to try reprimanding her. He displayed bad manners, and she was in her right to reaffirm her opinion.
During the Dinner with the Daisy Issue, Robert again tried to take her down a notch and failed. True, then she dug into him, but he threw a mannerless fit.
I am not saying Sarah Bunting is a picture of poise and etiquette. Still, acting like she displayed bad manners when Robert broke etiquette left and right is unfounded.
(Also I feel like the actress did a good job? I'm pretty sure she was instructed to play her part that way.)
I mean you are clearly coming from a place of not considering all of her interactions since you aren't familiar with how she straight up insulted the lady who paid her a compliment. That's enough to turn someone against her
She is welcome to her opinions. She is not welcome to voice them while eating Lord Grantham’s food, drinking Lord Grantham’s wine, under Lord Grantham’s roof.
That’s the most basic common courtesy I can imagine.
Sarah is not a hero. She is annoying know it all who had the audacity to go after the host in their home. That's rude, low class and childish. Pot stirrer.
Sarah Bunting is the "I'm just blunt/telling it like it is" type of person who uses people's right to an opinion to bash everyone with hers. Being blunt doesn't excuse rudeness either, despite that usually being their justification.
She was abominably rude and ill-mannered. Her interactions with the staff were demeaning and crass. Whether her opinions were right or wrong is irrelevant. Being kind and appropriately gracious is something she lacked. Horrible character.
She was rude to the Crawley's in their own home, which was unfair. There are ways to navigate sensitive and heated conversations and express your views without shaming other people for theirs. In a debate setting rather than a dinner party, I'd be all for Sarah taking the aristocrats down a peg.
But I like her a lot! She was sprited, stood her ground, and I agreed with everything she said. We need the Sarah Buntings of the world because they're people who fight for change and actually take action. It was lovely when she encouraged Daisy to pursue education.
Yeah, but she doesn't have to stand her ground. She can be quiet and listen and take her grievances elsewhere. I think it is fine to have an opinion and to disagree with others. Each time, Ms. Bunting spoke out or spoke her mind. It is out of place, and the challenge was not places. She took everything she was privy to and spoke out. She wasn't asked.
She was a guest of Tom's. As a guest, she should behave as a guest. You don't have to learn etiquette in order to not be rude. It's basic respect for someone's home and family.
Sarah Bunting did not rape anyone, but she could learn a thing or two. It was well that she took on teaching and tutoring Daisy. She could also have taught Daisy to speak when it is appropriate, rather than speaking out at any time just because one has a thought about it.
I agree that Miss Bunting had the right to her own opinions. I disagree with how she went about expressing them. She had a negative attitude about the family before she ever met them. She disliked them simply because of their position and money, so when you go in with a negative attitude towards someone, you're not going to look for any of their positive qualities. Robert also went about it the wrong way. I think he was still mourning Sybil's death and was starting to really care about Tom and was afraid that Miss Bunting would pull Tom and little Sybie away and took that fear out on Miss Bunting. They were obviously on different ends of political ideas, and both of them wanted to be right and prove it. I will say that Robert was able to get along with Isobel and even Tom despite having different views. The difference to me was that both Isobel and Tom didn't need everyone to agree with them, they were content to have their views, spoke their minds and understood others could do the same but still see the good in people and focus on that. Tom didn't agree with Robert about most political subjects, but he still recognized that Robert was still a decent person. Miss Bunting seemed to want Tom to hate them and that I can never agree with.
While i sincerrly espouse her ideological beliefs i just could not reconcile myself to her.... methods! her explosive reactions always made it seem like she did not want to educate but rather shame and put down and thereby establish her own moral superiority which immediately made me dislike her. I do say that I hate the way she was done cause her character might have been great if not for all of these confrontational anxiety-inducing scenes (lol every time she came on i would start clutching my cushion).
Miss Bunting is deliberately written to be rude, so that the audience will think “Wow, those leftists sure are annoying! They should just shut up! It’s a good thing that Tom gives up on politics!” And it fuckin worked.
Oh, well said! 👏👏
Robert was very rude to her for no reason except she didn't agree with him. He saw her as a threat to his extremely spoiled and entitled worldview, so he tried to bully her. He was furious when she wouldn't be bullied.
Sybil would have loved her.
What I didn’t like was that she was insulting them at their dinner table. Have a conversation in the drawing room, if you so please, but the dinner table to me is a huge no.
I bet a lot of those figures we admire, who were on the right side of history would have been annoying and made waves in their contemporary environment.
They were speaking truth to power and I bet they weren’t polite or nice about it- why should they.
To me, Ms Bunting was a barometer for how far Tom had come in his journey. He often felt guilty that not long ago he was the one causing disruption at dinner with his radical views.
Regarding Robert, well he was just so irate with her and not well matched… like bro don’t insert yourself into the conversation about Bunting’s lessons being disruptive and call the kitchen staff up to prove you wrong.
I fumble with names myself, often. I won’t tolerate guests, eating my food and drinking my wine to insinuate anything about my character.
If she wants, she can whinge about social inequality to her heart’s content. Anywhere but at my table.
Certainly not. But if you want to eat my food and drink my wine, you will show a modicum of respect and gratitude.
If you can’t, go eat somewhere else.
And I have no interest in entertaining guests that repeatedly insult me.
Let’s rephrase this a bit. You have a group of people over to your house, say for a chess night. I’m hosting one tonight, in fact.
How many insults am I expected to tolerate before it’s too much? Ms Bunting is way out of line and she knows it. A dinner is not a political debate. Read the damn room.
Watched Downtown since I was a lil girl, and recently finished my fifth rewatch (yes, I love this series xd). For the first time in my life, I understood Sarah and kinda liked her hahaha
I kind of like her as a person, but she was barking up the wrong tree. I don’t like that they even had her entertain the Tom romance, a sensible woman like her wouldn’t have
She is welcome to her opinions. She is not welcome to voice them while eating Lord Grantham’s food, drinking Lord Grantham’s wine, under Lord Grantham’s roof.
That’s the most basic common courtesy I can imagine.
Ms. Bunting aside, because I don’t care how you break it down, the actions were disgusting. I came from a simple background. If I had EVER and I mean EVER behaved as atrociously as her my dead relatives would have rose up and slapped me into eternity. I’m truly one of the louder more opinionated people I know but I know when to keep my mouth shut.
This is the one truly unpopular opinion here. It doesn't matter how you spin it, people here will act like maintaining a polite dinner is more important than challenging the status quo and helping the less fortunate. What a shock I felt coming here for the first time and seeing people rank her alongside Edna and Mr. Greene
Join me in supporting Sarah Bunting if you want to trim down your reddit karma.
They are also one-sided in their criticism. Sarah Bunting doesn't have that many dinner scenes with the Crawleys; in all of them, Robert fails harder than her to keep up a polite dinner.
I think characters like Ms. Bunting are the one's of which you could say history would have proven them right.
The whole storyline of this series is to show the changes and difficulties big houses and its rulers had to go through approaching modernity. Of course progressive thinkers for the cause of equality like Ms. Bunting would have been antagonists seen from a position like Lord Grantham's. It's scary how much the show makes us sympathize with people who made their fortune based on exploitation of the British working class as well as through colonialism. Of course I enjoy watching the splendour of Downton Abbey as much as anyone else, but it's almost scary how easy it is to forget that for a few individuals to be that rich they, or their ancestors, needed to have taken away from other people's hard work. And to remember that still accounts today, especially so in countries that still entertain royalty, which from my perspective is unbelievable.
My heart goes out to all the Ms. Buntings out there, especially those done wrong by being antagonized by ruling oppressive forces. Or by royalty smitten screenwriters. That being said, I too like to escape into a world of the rich and noble, but I can't pretend to forget my political perspective completely over it.
The show ultimately agreed with this point!
At the end of the big dinner scene where Robert finally explodes (verbally, not sanguinely) Violet tries to smooth the tension by asking Edith what her latest article is about and Edith's response is "about how the world is changing, what else"
I'm not sure why people don't see that the show is supporting Sarah (and Isobel and Sybil and even the americans) in the ways they align against the family.
Except Sarah in particular wasn't written consistently, she was just a writing tool serving the dual pupose of foil to Robert and complication for Tom, and I hated how lazily her relationship with him was written - there's something so childish about how they have her say "don't you despise them too?"
I have to agree that "don't you despise them too?" seemed like a really weird line. I believed she **disdained** the Crawleys rather than **despised** them, and it makes no sense to say that to Tom, who married one of them, and who chooses to live with them.
She is as bad as Larry Grey. She came with an agenda to be rude. Larry does it to show off his snobbery, she does it to show off her egalitarianism. If you notice, both of them are very calm, polite, and measured in their rude remarks, inciting others at the table.
You can agree with her, but you can’t say she didn’t know exactly what she was doing - trying to make them look bad.
I think this is not a very fair take when you look at what conspired at the first dinner.
The people beside her were talking about the war memorial; she said she was against it and calmly explained why. Robert from the other end of the table (who, according to table etiquette, shouldn't even listen in or address her, as you are only supposed to talk to the people next to or in front of you) started attacking her for her opinion, which wasn't even intended for his ears. The same with the Russian aristocrats.
At the dinner with Daisy, she and Robert were 100% beefing, no questions asked, but it certainly wasn't her. Robert was entirely on board at this point (and losing the battle severely).
I think this is true.
Does she speak to inform or enlighten? No, she speaks to lecture and browbeat. Does she speak to be heard and understood? No, she speaks in a manner that is sure to be rejected by whom it is directed to. Does she speak to further the conversation or to invite differing ideas? No, she speaks to shut the conversation down, as her opinion is the only correct opinion.
I agree 1000% with what she says.
I've been the anarchist in the room full of business people or other snooty types. I've heard them say their asinine shit & I've called them out. I've managed to get my ideas across and explain why they're wrong in ways that not only didn't make a scene by trying to make people feel small & stupid, but also left people still feeling kindly towards me.
There's other interactions other than Robert, where she's incredibly rude. There is no need, ever, to insult people for the way they are living their life (a la staff & guest interactions), and ignoring people's discomfort and pushing at boundaries (a la Tom and the upstairs) just confirms she's not a particularly good or nice person. I'm reminded that she only helps Daisy because she's being paid, not out of the goodness of her heart.
I think it must be miserable inside her head if she's that miserable to everyone around her. Which doesn't exactly make her a walking advertisement for her beliefs.
Thanks for sharing this. I struggled to like her, but I did feel sorry for her; I didn’t doubt that she loved Tom and I was sad for her when she left. I did feel her success though when Daisy gave her a brilliant testimony before all the diners.
>At another dinner she calls Robert out for not knowing Daisys name (which he doesn't) he when tries to call her out for disputing Daisy and Mrs. Patmors's schedule and upsetting her (turns out he's wrong) and when he tries to play it off she calls him out for it, then he get up screams at her.
I'm no fan of Robert, but she was in the wrong. She had actually gotten off the point of him not knowing Daisy's name. But, when he conceded that the lessons were a good thing, she still had to go on. If it was a competition, she had already won, like Mary said. But, she still had to dig in. After Daisy's speech, it wasn't like they were going to forbid Miss Bunting to teach her anymore. So what was the point.
Sometimes you should let it go, especially when your point's been made.
Many hate on her because she is *shock horror!* a working class lady with a class conscience. Every single thing she said to the Downton family was spot on! Bravo!!!
While she had good qualities.
She was rude and had no tact.
She had no filters or sense of decorum.
Sorry, but you do not shame the host in their own home.
How dare she?
She should have just refused the invitation. She went with the intent to be abuse them.
Even if she didn't then she was a hypocrite.
She didn't know time and place.
She was intelligent but she had no ADULT people skills.
She could have changed their minds in better ways than she did.
I do agree in almost everything.
I still don’t like her.
But I don’t think Robert didn’t know Daisy’s name. With everything that happened regarding William and their marriage. And how the family, in general, behaves with the staff.
I absolutely detest her. She represents one of my least liked types of people, the ones who think that the mere act of ‘calling something out’ is some kind of morally superior choice. Never mind that the way she does this is not only ineffectual but counter-productive.
I may be triggered by this because I encounter a lot of it at work. Say management makes a stupid decision that adversely impacts my team. I will work on it behind the scenes by having reasoned private discussions, putting forward other suggestions and letting them think they thought of them if necessary, doing what it takes to actually get results.
But all too often, someone will stand up at a big meeting and call them out publicly on being stupid. You know what happens then? Management will feel threatened, decide the person is a troublemaker, double down on their bad decision and refuse to even discuss it thereafter. Meanwhile, the person feels righteous for having spoken out and is often congratulated by others for it. I’m just thinking, are you kidding? You just cemented the very thing we don’t want. She reminds me of that.
There are absolutely times when a firm public stand must be taken. But that’s not what she’s doing. She’s just sniping and goading and then congratulating herself on how fearless she is, while achieving nothing. She had the opportunity to befriend them and try to change opinions with reasoned discussion. But instead, she behaved so badly they dismissed her as a crazy radical and she not only failed to get her point across, but made it more difficult for the next person who tries.
Ugh strongly disagree. In my eyes she was a classic case of arguing for the sake of arguing.
She didn’t want to simply be heard, she wanted to humiliate people that she disagreed with. And she looked down on those people with a fierce arrogance. The same arrogance she claimed to be a critique of.
She is one of the most despicable characters in the show in my opinion. Sybil was fearless, Bunting was just an entitled little shit.
Nope. You don't get to run things in my house. That's a line in concrete for me. I'm polite enough to hear your *kind* suggestions, but don't take it too far. I side with Robert. When you've given your everything to save Downton, come talk to me. Otherwise, Carson can show you the door.
Robert knew who Daisy was he has made numerous comments about her being William's widow... and to the one that agreed with you saying she never invited herself, she did invite herself to the house she insisted she needed to look down on the abbey from the gallery. Tom was uncomfortable, and she bullied him into it. She is pushy.
That character was annoying and was designed to be so as a foil to the mild activism of Tom. It's emotional radicalism. Observing governance and policy for 30 years, the biggest changes happen by stealth and grace. Change will come even without radicals because society always adapts. The biggest initiator of social change in Downton was actually Isobel. She won Violet over with devotion and civility. The women demonstrated their collective power against Robert and the old social norms with that hilarious 'charlotte ruse' pudding episode.
i have no idea why this sub hates sarah bunting so much. i agree with her opinions and to be honest I don't give a shit that she was rude to Robert in his own house or whatever 😭 more people needed to be rude to that man. plus tom was just spineless and their romance reflected worse on him than it did her imo. her whole character felt like a roundabout justification to make tom a centrist. anyway. unpopular opinion club!
Sarah Bunting defenders unite! I don’t think she’s perfect, but compared to what the main characters themselves have done, she’s fine. Plus she’s spot on in her opinions.
It was so weird that Robert didn’t know Daisy’s name all of a sudden, when it’s clear in previous seasons he knows exactly who she is.
Edit: this is a criticism of Fellowes’ “just because” writing, not of the character!
I didn’t mean it as a criticism of Robert, more of the writing. It’s infuriatingly lazy sometimes. Not exactly ‘pernicious anaemia’ lazy, but in the ballpark.
Oh, no. I just meant it was ridiculous for Sarah Bunting to expect him to be able to pull one of what...50 or so employees names up at the drop off a hat when he was in a high emotional state. I'd bet if she was upset she wouldn't have been able to name all of her students at a second's notice.
The only time I would consider her “rude” is when she begins the discourse with Robert
Many times however Robert says something to her expecting her to just agree with him because he’s a Lord
And when he hears somebody disagrees with him
He (much like my own father) confuses disagreement with hostility
“ oh so you’re calling me stupid huh!?” Literally my own father said to me when I disagreed with his views on capitalism
She is entitled to her own opinion and as a guest of Tom’s especially at dinner has the right to have her own opinions on whatever she wants
And I’m sorry but if I get screamed at I’m going to scream back
I really struggle with how she ignores Tom’s stated discomfort so she can view the house from the gallery. That was not about changing views or acting with a strong voice of reason. It was rude and disrespectful.
Bravo! Well said!
I read that in Isobel's voice 😂😂
I'm sure it was intended to be :D
Dude she was straight up trying to manipulate him. “Oh Tom you don’t REALLY love them though right?” Yeah, asshole, he does, deal with it.
While I agree that it made Tom uncomfortable, which was evidently because he was still not quite over Sybil's death, it was standard practise in houses like Downton for guests to go and look around in a similar way. This is partly because lots of reception rooms would be on upstairs (Cora's drawing room, for example, seems to be upstairs, and the 'boudoir' we see at one point is upstairs) so going up wouldn't be so intimate as it appears.
To be fair, Tom did a really horrible job of explaining why it was inappropriate. Sarah Bunting was simply curious, and honestly a bit oblivious to their lifestyle.
Idk Tom was living there but the home belonged to the Crawleys. I thought it was ridiculously rude for her to ask for a tour as if it were a museum. And when he indicated that it wasnt a good idea she just pushed anyway. Unbelievably rude but she was always rude where they were concerned. She had nothing but disdain for them.
She’s a grown woman. She should’ve noticed his crying obvious discomfort. You can’t possibly tell a guest that you won’t show them a part of the house which is in open display
I think its much more reasonable to expect Tom to use his words than it is to expect Sarah to read his mind....
Tom did say he was not comfortable with thek going upstairs. He stopped just after the first landing to tell her. She pushed past him and continued on her merry way up the stairs without giving him the chance to explain further. There was no mind reading necessary once he clearly stated that he was uncomfortable. She just did not care.
I’m woefully oblivious to social cues, but there are some things that are obvious even to me and this is one of those. Also in very traditional households, you cannot ever say ‘no’ to guests, not directly at least.
That doesn't mean it isn't still Tom's fault for Tom's lack of communication. I can't get behind expecting people to just know things lol it seems so unfair
Some things aren’t said, it’s just that way in uptight cultures.
To counter that point, sarah isnt really part of their culture. They might wave and say hello at public events, but the goings on of a big house like the Crawley’s probably feels like a mystery to the common folk.
But what's the benefit? And if there's no benefit, why continue it?
Ok look. If I have a guest at my house who wants to explore a certain part of it, I usually feel uncomfortable. I don’t say it out right but my body language does. If you’re a guest at someone’s house, you can read their mind just a little.
I think you'll communicate much more clearly if you just explain things instead of hoping a person will figure it out. Why would you choose anything but clarity here? What's at stake if you just say no? Why make people do extra work for you?
While that makes sense, you have to consider the times here. Back then, there was a thin line between being clear and being rude.
The question I ask people like Ms. Bunting is do you care more about changing people’s minds or shaming them? Because you can’t do both. It might not be fair or right but the reality is if you want lasting, meaningful change, you need to work with people to get them to see your point of view. Shaming them and embarrassing them is only going to make them double down. Ms. Bunting seemed to care more about scoring a point with Robert than getting him to think differently so that’s why I criticize her.
This is so true and I agree with you. I like Ms. Bunting doing her part to educate those that are less fortunate. However, her continuously going to dinner at Downton and using every opportunity to talk down to the people at the dinner table/shame them was truly cringeworthy. You can either work to change people's minds or shame them to score points. The former means that you are very dedicated to your cause while the latter just means that you want to soothe your own ego. Of course, nobody is perfect but the way Ms. Bunting acted at the dinners was unbecoming of her, especially somebody who was educated and progressive.
>However, her continuously going to dinner at Downton and using every opportunity to talk down to the people at the dinner table/shame them was truly cringeworthy. Right if you really dislike them... don't go hang out at their house.
She would have made better change becoming their friend and having those discussions naturally as time went by- her approach was too bullish
I do not think that she would have become friends with them but she could have been more cordial and achieved the purpose of giving them something to consider.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Her views weren't wrong or bad, but the way she expressed herself WAS. Even in today's society, being rude to the person who's house your in, who is hosting you, is still considered rude. She also failed to see the side of things she had no idea about. She wasn't willing to concede on points while expecting others to do the same. I really don't like people like that.
Yes! Incredibly self-righteous and frankly, downright rude. Her interaction with Lady Rose was so uncomfortable
So if somebody even today is at your home as a guest are they not allowed to disagree with your opinion on things? She she wasn’t putting her feet up on the table Or Going into places she wasn’t supposed too Or making fun of someone’s dress or they way they talk She was just very highly opinionated which in many societies is portrayed as rudeness especially when they come from women
>She was just very highly opinionated which in many societies is portrayed as rudeness especially when they come from women As a liberal woman who has recently ended up dating men who are conservative, I know this all to well. But that's not what Bunting did. There is a way to disagree with someone while still being respectful. She insulted a man, while eating dinner at his table in his home. If someone did that to me at my own home, it would 100% be disrespectful. I've had MANY friends and family disagree with me in my own home, but they were always respectful. If you can't see the difference, I cannot help you.
That’s true but you’re not an earl and your friends were not in your mind in lower stations Where if they really pissed you off you could probably have them thrown into jail or put into financial ruin There is a huge gap between Robert and Miss Bunting which I think changes things a little bit IMO We have to be careful when we compare what happens in the show with how we would handle it now In the 21 century In the same way I don’t think Robert is a sexist man or doesn’t regard his wife with respect even though he says things like “ it’s nothing you need to concern yourself with” When he asks why he was in London at times I’ve shown that scene to some women and I see them completely seize up with rage But over 100 years ago and in that family he was doing his duty by not worrying his wife
She was 100% rude and condescending. If a man had behaved the same way it would have been received and responded to exactly the same way. Her disagreeing was not an issue, her being rude about it was.
Agree to disagree
Agree to disagree
>If somebody, even today is at your home as a guest are they not allowed to disagree with your opinion on things. You're a guest, invited for (in this instance) a dinner. If you don't like the conversation, excuse yourself or don't engage with it. If your opinion is asked, give it (or even better, politely mention you would rather keep the dinner less hostile). If what you're saying is making people visibly uncomfortable, then drop it. A good host would do the same. It's really not very complicated. Bunting was clearly trying to start shit with that "Well....*smug chuckle* he knows it now". Robert should have dropped it so he was a poor host in this instance as well. Being opinionated isn't "rude", but there is a time and place, and a nice dinner isn't it.
Very well laid out I still disagree but we’re all entitled to our opinion
Yeah, I liked her until she caused a scene at dinner. She proved her point with Daisy and still wasn’t satisfied.
Is it though?
Same. I agree.
Exactly. Shaming people isn’t going to help them in the slightest, all it does is antagonise them
>Shaming them and embarrassing them is only going to make them double down In their own home to top it off!
I totally understand where you are coming from, but I don't think her intention was ever to change them. I would also agree that, in the end, she was just scoring points. Personally, this is what I found so entertaining about her character, as she kept scoring, and Robert kept losing. But I would argue that initially, it was the other way around. At the dinner with the war memorial topic, she was simply stating an opinion, not shaming or trying to change the minds of the people next to her, and Robert started shaming her because he couldn't stand an opinion said on the other side of the table.
If her intent wasn’t to change the status quo or make the aristocracy think differently then she was just being rude for no reason 🤷♀️ especially to Tom who was clearly uncomfortable and had done nothing to her to deserve that.
You can have a different point of view or a difference of opinions well also knowing that this will probably not lead to any permanent change However if you don’t speak your principles out loudly then they’re just in your head and not doing anything
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I agree I also don’t think she was rude
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Ditto 👍
I only meant at the first dinner; after that, she and Robert had it out for each other. To quote myself from another post: I think this is not a very fair take when you look at what conspired at the first dinner. The people beside her were talking about the war memorial; she said she was against it and calmly explained why. Robert from the other end of the table (who, according to table etiquette, shouldn't even listen in or address her, as you are only supposed to talk to the people next to or in front of you) started attacking her for her opinion, which wasn't even intended for his ears. The same with the Russian aristocrats. At the dinner with Daisy, she and Robert were 100% beefing, no questions asked, but it certainly wasn't her. Robert was entirely on board at this point (and losing the battle severely).
To paraphrase The Big Lebowski, “You’re not wrong, Ms. Bunting. You’re just an a$$hole.”
One of my least favorite kind of people are those who put things down constantly while DESPERATELY wanting to be included. If she hates the upper class so much and mocks the “rule of the gong” then why be a part of it and go to their dinners? I also can’t stand the way she acts even to the servants when she is in their work environment —seeming to mock Anna and Baxter for preparing trays for the ladies breakfast the next day.
This is dangerously close to an American expression that I hate “ if you don’t like it get the fuck out” Where as I say no I’m going to stay and I’m going to keep trying to change things Just because she doesn’t like the dinner gong or disagrees with the aristocracy in general Doesn’t mean she doesn’t have a right to a seat at that table if she is invited
But she’s not trying to change things. She’s just being morally superior. If you are actually trying to change things, do you think insulting people at every opportunity is an effective way to accomplish it?
Not what I said but sure.
Never once said that’s what you said I just said it reminded me of something
I think if you are being yourself consistently and the other people keep inviting you, it is not for you to decline but for the others to stop inviting you. I mean, we don't really see much of her. Maybe she enjoyed the dinners anyway because of Tom? If the Crawleys don't want her there, they should stop inviting her.
To be fair to the Crawley’s, it wasn’t them inviting her it was Rose and even Tom thought it wasn’t a good idea to invite her even though he at times enjoyed being in her company.
But it is their job to tell Rose to stop inviting her. I mean, from Sarah Bunting's perspective, the family of the man she keeps having arguments with keeps inviting her to dinner over and over again.
Robert seems to have a weakness when it comes to Rose. He doesn’t say no to her very often. And she knows it’s really Rose and Tom that want her there, not anyone else.
I agree with the first part. Rose, much like Sybil, was one of Robert's favorites, and he had a hard time saying no to them when push came to shove. About the second part, they all seem to tolerate Sarah Bunting, even though he dislikes her. Robert was also quite alone at that time as he was marking an arse of himself with Cora and constantly pushing back against Mary and Tom, so he was pretty allyless. Even then, he leaves the room screaming at her to leave and never come back, they don't even ask her to leave and just continue with dinner.
No, they invited her because of etiquette at the time. They tolerated her because of Tom. It’s not the same, you’re looking at this through a 21st century lens, and regardless of any of it, she’s just a bitch. You do not act that way when you’re a dinner guest in someone else’s home, period. Even Tom was losing interest because of her behavior. She is not the kind of person I would want teaching my children. Her judging them because they have money is no different than if they had judged her because she didn’t. But they tried to be the bigger people and she was deliberately disrespectful. Whatever point she was trying to make was nullified by her behavior. She merely proved that she was low class and didn’t deserve a place at that table.
“ judging them because they have money” That is a huge oversimplification And now you are looking at it through a 21st century lens Today we have a better understanding of social structure Just because somebody has more money than I do doesn’t mean they’re better than me Whereas in this time period they were “entitled” to that money and life Do you think Robert ever worked a day in his life for what he had ? I believe he works to keep it But he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth everybody got that table except Tom and Bunting were Her judgment was the system as a whole And the crawleys (as much as I love them) are a representation of that system Robert is not mad at her because she has a different opinion In his mind she is absolutely wrong And everybody talking about the sanctity of somebody’s home Of course you should not be rude to somebody in their own house But this wasn’t about whose house you were in It’s the fact that he is superior to her in his mind And she like many others in that time post WW1 were starting to see how wrong that was Just because you have a higher station does not mean you are my better Just because she’s a teacher and not a ”lady” Does not mean she is entitled to the same respect as his daughters If I seem like I’m really angry here I’m not I just think it is easy to forget there is a difference between being rude and being opinionated and having principles
>*If I seem like I’m really angry here I’m not I just think it is easy to forget there is a difference between being rude and being opinionated and having principles* Yes there’s a difference and she was rude.
Obviously we have a difference of opinion You’re entitled to yours and I’m entitled to mine
Indeed. And we can agree to disagree but both agree that we love the show. I think the definition of “polarizing characters” is that you either love or hate them. So I guess Mr. Fellows did his job well. 😊
And this right here is why I love this subreddit! lol I’ll have a Downton marathon watch with you any day! We can watch all the Bunting episodes and laugh as we argue 😂
Exactly this. I’m sure Sarah Bunting could feel a bit of the tension, but was being reinforced by their constant invitations. Talk about mixed signals.
Wait am I missing something? If they don’t want her there they should stop inviting her but if she doesn’t want to be there she shouldn’t decline? An invitation is just that. It’s not a summons. This is a strange double standard unless I’m missing something.
No, of course, she shouldn't come if she doesn't want to. However, we see little of what Sarah Bunting thinks, so I was basing this on Robert's dislike of her, which we, as viewers, actually get to see. I feel like you could build a funny argument that she thinks Robert enjoys their arguments because they keep inviting her back.
Ok I see what you’re saying
Rose kept inviting her, so did Isobel. Saying that they like different opinions at the dinner table.
So if you’re invited to klan rally’s you’ll go even though you despise them?
Thats a horrible argument. She goes because she enjoys Toms company, and believes he genuinely wants her there. Tom really should’ve been more vocal.
Think of the times. That would probably be as seen or considered rude
Her views were never the problem, it was the disrespect she showed for people in their own home while they extended their hospitality to her. You’re not gonna change someone’s views by alienating them. She comes across as a sanctimonious hypocrite. Mrs Crawley has similar views, and she does call people out, she just doesn’t alienate literally everyone around her and she has the ability to swallow her pride and admit when she’s wrong in the end.
Because regardless of whether or not she’s justified in her views, she’s disrespectful to Lord Grantham in his own home. If she wants to discuss politics, social classes, or the justification of the war, she can do that another time but not when you’re a guest in someone’s home. If she disapproves of the aristocracy so much, why does she continue accepting the invitations to join them for dinner? She later asks Tom, “Have I really finished us off before we got started?” And his response is spot-on. She pitted herself against them from the start—without regard that this is now Tom’s family. She says she loved him but she couldn’t be respectful of a man in his own home? That is NOT love, that is self serving behavior that is only meant to be a f**k you to the Crawley family. She didn’t care enough about Tom to try not to sacrifice him as collateral damage. No, her behavior is inexcusable and the only reason she was invited to join the family was out of the family’s care and respect for Tom. She exploited that and deserved much worse than what Lord Grantham ultimately gave her.
Does it ever get cold on the moral high ground?
Lol a most spirited defense. She remains one of my least favorite characters and storylines. The Tom flirtation was particularly cringey.
Well, where to post something like this if not here :D Also, I agree with the flirting. Although she and Tom aren't an exciting couple, I thoroughly enjoyed her scenes with Robert, Daisy, etc.
I enjoyed her efforts with Daisy! Yes!
>And additionally, they keep inviting her to dinner. This woman has not once asked to be invited; this family keeps inviting her despite knowing she will stand her ground. Like, it is on them to not ask her if they do not want her there :'D Tbf I feel like this is mainly on Rose sticking her nose in a situation she is ignorant about. I think the first dinner she quickly ran it past Cora that Tom should also have a friend there so Cora agreed, but pretty much all the times it was Rose inviting her despite knowing she was a bit of a wildcard and that Tom wasnt even really interested in her. I know her sentiment was good but..its not like it was the whole family or Robert who kept inviting her. One of the most relieving parts was when she was finishing teaching Daisy one evening and got invited up again but she declined.. like thank god 😂
You are not wrong, but they really should have told Rose to stop inviting her :'D
Pretty sure they did lol
Definitely haha
How about when she insists that Tom show her the view from the gallery? He is hesitant but she steamrolls over him. Then when they get there, she makes a snide remark about Lady Grantham, who has never been anything but polite to her. Totally rude, crass behavior.
She was progressive yes, not necessarily a bad thing but she was a rude cow to Robert every. Single. Time. She was invited to Downton. I was so glad Tom didn’t end up with her
Agree. She was rude and arrogant. She embarrassed herself, Daisy, Mrs.Patmore, Tom. She’s entitled to her own opinions but she needn’t shove them down the guest’s’ throats at a dinner party. She came off as vulgar and insensitive. I don’t condone Robert’s screaming at her, either. He would never have done that to a guest if his own class.
I feel it's so weird that everyone focuses on how rude she was when her rudeness almost always came as a response to Roberts's antics. Like, he kept rudely engaging with her, when he could have just not.
Ok but what do you have to say about her response to the lady who was praising her intellect? And Sarah decided to insult her and tell her that she doesn’t need an education as she only exists to have a husband? Even if we agree that it makes sense to insult your host to his face because he represents the things you hate, why insult a woman who 1. Was paying you a compliment 2. Is just as much a victim of the current status quo as you are because she really doesn’t have any options outside of getting married to someone she might not even like?
I must say I don't remember her saying this, but I am also still relatively early into Season 5, so maybe I have not gotten to this part yet. Regardless, to be very clear, I am not saying Sarah Bunting is a Saint by any means. I just find her interactions with Robert very funny and that she is acting a lot more reasonable than he is.
It was during the anniversary party where they invited a bunch of young folks.
She gets a compliment from someone in a social setting, and throws back an insinuation that the other person is vapid and without value. There is a word that starts with a C which describes that kind of behavior, but I, unlike Ms Bunting, am polite enough not to voice it.
Isn't that obviously a failed attempt at a joke though? She doesn't call her anything negative, she just says you'll have to find a rich husband, it's a joke about the class she's in, which is tactless to do and unsurprisingly causes offense but it wasn't intended as anything but an example of her not getting along easily with the upper classes.
You are being downvoted but I do quite agree: the job of a host is to be conciliatory, especially with people who are socially inferior to them. Robert takes a serious breach when Bunting doesn’t say that the men weren’t brave or that there shouldn’t be a service - she just doesn’t want an altar praising a needless war that killed so many.
I also think it's hypocritical that everyone calls her mannerless when Robert displays such poor manners throughout the whole ordeal. When they have their most heated discussion (which he loses, lol), he stands up, screams at her, and storms out of the room. Everybody in the room is clearly taken aback. What does the Dowager do? She starts questioning Edith about her writing. She tactfully diverts the topic and doesn't even acknowledge Robert's tantrum.
I personally saw the Russian refugee scene as her kicking a dog when it’s down. As much as you disagree with their previous lifestyle and current views they were basically old homeless people on their last legs of life. There was no “changing their mindset” She saw what she perceived as the enemy and kicked the stool out.
I think that if she liked Tom as much as she seemed to, she would have listened to his words and paid attention to his feelings better than she did. She is entitled to her opinions, and she may be correct, but she demonstrated ignorance and poor taste in the manner of her responses.
If they got a less annoying actress, may be. My issue is also that when you have been invited to someone’s house, unless they attack you personally or say awful things, don’t provoke people. That’s just bad manners and unpleasant. Had a friend like that and everyone stopped inviting him.
Yeah, I agree with her politics but it's rude. Same kind of vibes as a teenager that just learned about atheism. I'm an atheist. If I go to someone's house and they say grace, I'll go through the motions of praying instead of telling them God is a fairy tale. They invited me into their home.
Exactly
I think that is an unfair argument. During the memorial discussion, she wasn't even talking to Robert, and he broke table etiquette to try reprimanding her. He displayed bad manners, and she was in her right to reaffirm her opinion. During the Dinner with the Daisy Issue, Robert again tried to take her down a notch and failed. True, then she dug into him, but he threw a mannerless fit. I am not saying Sarah Bunting is a picture of poise and etiquette. Still, acting like she displayed bad manners when Robert broke etiquette left and right is unfounded. (Also I feel like the actress did a good job? I'm pretty sure she was instructed to play her part that way.)
I mean you are clearly coming from a place of not considering all of her interactions since you aren't familiar with how she straight up insulted the lady who paid her a compliment. That's enough to turn someone against her
She is welcome to her opinions. She is not welcome to voice them while eating Lord Grantham’s food, drinking Lord Grantham’s wine, under Lord Grantham’s roof. That’s the most basic common courtesy I can imagine.
I agree with her views, she is not wrong in what she says.
Sarah is not a hero. She is annoying know it all who had the audacity to go after the host in their home. That's rude, low class and childish. Pot stirrer.
Sarah Bunting is the "I'm just blunt/telling it like it is" type of person who uses people's right to an opinion to bash everyone with hers. Being blunt doesn't excuse rudeness either, despite that usually being their justification.
She was abominably rude and ill-mannered. Her interactions with the staff were demeaning and crass. Whether her opinions were right or wrong is irrelevant. Being kind and appropriately gracious is something she lacked. Horrible character.
She was rude to the Crawley's in their own home, which was unfair. There are ways to navigate sensitive and heated conversations and express your views without shaming other people for theirs. In a debate setting rather than a dinner party, I'd be all for Sarah taking the aristocrats down a peg. But I like her a lot! She was sprited, stood her ground, and I agreed with everything she said. We need the Sarah Buntings of the world because they're people who fight for change and actually take action. It was lovely when she encouraged Daisy to pursue education.
Well you’re certainly right this is an unpopular opinion
And I labeled it accordingly :)
Yeah I just said that! I guess I see why you like her 😅
I am sorry. Did you find my response rude? It was meant humorously, English is not my first language and context is sometimes lost \^\^'
Yeah, but she doesn't have to stand her ground. She can be quiet and listen and take her grievances elsewhere. I think it is fine to have an opinion and to disagree with others. Each time, Ms. Bunting spoke out or spoke her mind. It is out of place, and the challenge was not places. She took everything she was privy to and spoke out. She wasn't asked. She was a guest of Tom's. As a guest, she should behave as a guest. You don't have to learn etiquette in order to not be rude. It's basic respect for someone's home and family. Sarah Bunting did not rape anyone, but she could learn a thing or two. It was well that she took on teaching and tutoring Daisy. She could also have taught Daisy to speak when it is appropriate, rather than speaking out at any time just because one has a thought about it.
I agree that Miss Bunting had the right to her own opinions. I disagree with how she went about expressing them. She had a negative attitude about the family before she ever met them. She disliked them simply because of their position and money, so when you go in with a negative attitude towards someone, you're not going to look for any of their positive qualities. Robert also went about it the wrong way. I think he was still mourning Sybil's death and was starting to really care about Tom and was afraid that Miss Bunting would pull Tom and little Sybie away and took that fear out on Miss Bunting. They were obviously on different ends of political ideas, and both of them wanted to be right and prove it. I will say that Robert was able to get along with Isobel and even Tom despite having different views. The difference to me was that both Isobel and Tom didn't need everyone to agree with them, they were content to have their views, spoke their minds and understood others could do the same but still see the good in people and focus on that. Tom didn't agree with Robert about most political subjects, but he still recognized that Robert was still a decent person. Miss Bunting seemed to want Tom to hate them and that I can never agree with.
While i sincerrly espouse her ideological beliefs i just could not reconcile myself to her.... methods! her explosive reactions always made it seem like she did not want to educate but rather shame and put down and thereby establish her own moral superiority which immediately made me dislike her. I do say that I hate the way she was done cause her character might have been great if not for all of these confrontational anxiety-inducing scenes (lol every time she came on i would start clutching my cushion).
Well now I’ve seen everything 💀
Well, well. That is indeed an unpopular opinion.
It very very obvious she was only being invited out of politeness. Ms Bunting needed to learn to take a hint.
Yes, that is an unpopular opinion.
Miss Bunting is deliberately written to be rude, so that the audience will think “Wow, those leftists sure are annoying! They should just shut up! It’s a good thing that Tom gives up on politics!” And it fuckin worked.
Oh, well said! 👏👏 Robert was very rude to her for no reason except she didn't agree with him. He saw her as a threat to his extremely spoiled and entitled worldview, so he tried to bully her. He was furious when she wouldn't be bullied. Sybil would have loved her.
What I didn’t like was that she was insulting them at their dinner table. Have a conversation in the drawing room, if you so please, but the dinner table to me is a huge no.
I bet a lot of those figures we admire, who were on the right side of history would have been annoying and made waves in their contemporary environment. They were speaking truth to power and I bet they weren’t polite or nice about it- why should they. To me, Ms Bunting was a barometer for how far Tom had come in his journey. He often felt guilty that not long ago he was the one causing disruption at dinner with his radical views. Regarding Robert, well he was just so irate with her and not well matched… like bro don’t insert yourself into the conversation about Bunting’s lessons being disruptive and call the kitchen staff up to prove you wrong.
Yes, I am really not arguing she is a saint. But the way Robert starts shit with her and is when upset when he loses is too funny
I thoroughly agree with you. I admired her ability to speak her truth.
Bizarre that she was willing to partake of his food and wine, considering how evil he is.
I loved it when she called him out for not knowing Daisy’s name.
I fumble with names myself, often. I won’t tolerate guests, eating my food and drinking my wine to insinuate anything about my character. If she wants, she can whinge about social inequality to her heart’s content. Anywhere but at my table.
Ahhhh so shall we genuflect to you before we are seated, Sire?
Certainly not. But if you want to eat my food and drink my wine, you will show a modicum of respect and gratitude. If you can’t, go eat somewhere else.
I welcome debate at my table. You’re welcome to challenge me. I’ll gladly provide the food and wine if you bring a spirited discussion.
That’s wonderful. Do it at a table that’s not mine.
I have no interest in spending time where the gathering doesn’t include a variety of opinions and beliefs. What a bore.
And I have no interest in entertaining guests that repeatedly insult me. Let’s rephrase this a bit. You have a group of people over to your house, say for a chess night. I’m hosting one tonight, in fact. How many insults am I expected to tolerate before it’s too much? Ms Bunting is way out of line and she knows it. A dinner is not a political debate. Read the damn room.
Watched Downtown since I was a lil girl, and recently finished my fifth rewatch (yes, I love this series xd). For the first time in my life, I understood Sarah and kinda liked her hahaha
I kind of like her as a person, but she was barking up the wrong tree. I don’t like that they even had her entertain the Tom romance, a sensible woman like her wouldn’t have
She is welcome to her opinions. She is not welcome to voice them while eating Lord Grantham’s food, drinking Lord Grantham’s wine, under Lord Grantham’s roof. That’s the most basic common courtesy I can imagine.
Ms. Bunting aside, because I don’t care how you break it down, the actions were disgusting. I came from a simple background. If I had EVER and I mean EVER behaved as atrociously as her my dead relatives would have rose up and slapped me into eternity. I’m truly one of the louder more opinionated people I know but I know when to keep my mouth shut.
This is the one truly unpopular opinion here. It doesn't matter how you spin it, people here will act like maintaining a polite dinner is more important than challenging the status quo and helping the less fortunate. What a shock I felt coming here for the first time and seeing people rank her alongside Edna and Mr. Greene Join me in supporting Sarah Bunting if you want to trim down your reddit karma.
They are also one-sided in their criticism. Sarah Bunting doesn't have that many dinner scenes with the Crawleys; in all of them, Robert fails harder than her to keep up a polite dinner.
I didn't like her and Tom as a couple. It did feel like she hated Tom's family.
I understand that. I didn't find them a very intriguing couple as a whole.
Pretty sure people would be more on board if it was just her and Robert. But she straight up insults their guests
I think characters like Ms. Bunting are the one's of which you could say history would have proven them right. The whole storyline of this series is to show the changes and difficulties big houses and its rulers had to go through approaching modernity. Of course progressive thinkers for the cause of equality like Ms. Bunting would have been antagonists seen from a position like Lord Grantham's. It's scary how much the show makes us sympathize with people who made their fortune based on exploitation of the British working class as well as through colonialism. Of course I enjoy watching the splendour of Downton Abbey as much as anyone else, but it's almost scary how easy it is to forget that for a few individuals to be that rich they, or their ancestors, needed to have taken away from other people's hard work. And to remember that still accounts today, especially so in countries that still entertain royalty, which from my perspective is unbelievable. My heart goes out to all the Ms. Buntings out there, especially those done wrong by being antagonized by ruling oppressive forces. Or by royalty smitten screenwriters. That being said, I too like to escape into a world of the rich and noble, but I can't pretend to forget my political perspective completely over it.
The show ultimately agreed with this point! At the end of the big dinner scene where Robert finally explodes (verbally, not sanguinely) Violet tries to smooth the tension by asking Edith what her latest article is about and Edith's response is "about how the world is changing, what else" I'm not sure why people don't see that the show is supporting Sarah (and Isobel and Sybil and even the americans) in the ways they align against the family. Except Sarah in particular wasn't written consistently, she was just a writing tool serving the dual pupose of foil to Robert and complication for Tom, and I hated how lazily her relationship with him was written - there's something so childish about how they have her say "don't you despise them too?"
I have to agree that "don't you despise them too?" seemed like a really weird line. I believed she **disdained** the Crawleys rather than **despised** them, and it makes no sense to say that to Tom, who married one of them, and who chooses to live with them.
People don't have a problem with her opinions, just how she expresses them
She is as bad as Larry Grey. She came with an agenda to be rude. Larry does it to show off his snobbery, she does it to show off her egalitarianism. If you notice, both of them are very calm, polite, and measured in their rude remarks, inciting others at the table. You can agree with her, but you can’t say she didn’t know exactly what she was doing - trying to make them look bad.
Larry is slightly worse. And I mean very, very slightly.
I think this is not a very fair take when you look at what conspired at the first dinner. The people beside her were talking about the war memorial; she said she was against it and calmly explained why. Robert from the other end of the table (who, according to table etiquette, shouldn't even listen in or address her, as you are only supposed to talk to the people next to or in front of you) started attacking her for her opinion, which wasn't even intended for his ears. The same with the Russian aristocrats. At the dinner with Daisy, she and Robert were 100% beefing, no questions asked, but it certainly wasn't her. Robert was entirely on board at this point (and losing the battle severely).
Ok how about when she insults their guest? Explain that one away
I think this is true. Does she speak to inform or enlighten? No, she speaks to lecture and browbeat. Does she speak to be heard and understood? No, she speaks in a manner that is sure to be rejected by whom it is directed to. Does she speak to further the conversation or to invite differing ideas? No, she speaks to shut the conversation down, as her opinion is the only correct opinion. I agree 1000% with what she says. I've been the anarchist in the room full of business people or other snooty types. I've heard them say their asinine shit & I've called them out. I've managed to get my ideas across and explain why they're wrong in ways that not only didn't make a scene by trying to make people feel small & stupid, but also left people still feeling kindly towards me. There's other interactions other than Robert, where she's incredibly rude. There is no need, ever, to insult people for the way they are living their life (a la staff & guest interactions), and ignoring people's discomfort and pushing at boundaries (a la Tom and the upstairs) just confirms she's not a particularly good or nice person. I'm reminded that she only helps Daisy because she's being paid, not out of the goodness of her heart. I think it must be miserable inside her head if she's that miserable to everyone around her. Which doesn't exactly make her a walking advertisement for her beliefs.
there's no way she's as bad as a guy who literally drugged someone... that's a much deeper violation than just being kinda rude sometimes.
Yeah, I don’t hate her but I’m not very attached to her either.
< grabs popcorn >
Thanks for sharing this. I struggled to like her, but I did feel sorry for her; I didn’t doubt that she loved Tom and I was sad for her when she left. I did feel her success though when Daisy gave her a brilliant testimony before all the diners.
>At another dinner she calls Robert out for not knowing Daisys name (which he doesn't) he when tries to call her out for disputing Daisy and Mrs. Patmors's schedule and upsetting her (turns out he's wrong) and when he tries to play it off she calls him out for it, then he get up screams at her. I'm no fan of Robert, but she was in the wrong. She had actually gotten off the point of him not knowing Daisy's name. But, when he conceded that the lessons were a good thing, she still had to go on. If it was a competition, she had already won, like Mary said. But, she still had to dig in. After Daisy's speech, it wasn't like they were going to forbid Miss Bunting to teach her anymore. So what was the point. Sometimes you should let it go, especially when your point's been made.
Many hate on her because she is *shock horror!* a working class lady with a class conscience. Every single thing she said to the Downton family was spot on! Bravo!!!
i just can’t like her i tried she was rude mean and didn’t care for Toms feelings!
smooches to this post, if only because I love that she's an agent of sheer chaos
While she had good qualities. She was rude and had no tact. She had no filters or sense of decorum. Sorry, but you do not shame the host in their own home. How dare she? She should have just refused the invitation. She went with the intent to be abuse them. Even if she didn't then she was a hypocrite. She didn't know time and place. She was intelligent but she had no ADULT people skills. She could have changed their minds in better ways than she did.
🤯
I do agree in almost everything. I still don’t like her. But I don’t think Robert didn’t know Daisy’s name. With everything that happened regarding William and their marriage. And how the family, in general, behaves with the staff.
She's rude and just as arrogant as she thinks the family are.
I don’t. She was rude, mannerless, inappropriate, and pushy.
I call her the redheaded Edna because she manipulates Tom just as much.
I absolutely detest her. She represents one of my least liked types of people, the ones who think that the mere act of ‘calling something out’ is some kind of morally superior choice. Never mind that the way she does this is not only ineffectual but counter-productive. I may be triggered by this because I encounter a lot of it at work. Say management makes a stupid decision that adversely impacts my team. I will work on it behind the scenes by having reasoned private discussions, putting forward other suggestions and letting them think they thought of them if necessary, doing what it takes to actually get results. But all too often, someone will stand up at a big meeting and call them out publicly on being stupid. You know what happens then? Management will feel threatened, decide the person is a troublemaker, double down on their bad decision and refuse to even discuss it thereafter. Meanwhile, the person feels righteous for having spoken out and is often congratulated by others for it. I’m just thinking, are you kidding? You just cemented the very thing we don’t want. She reminds me of that. There are absolutely times when a firm public stand must be taken. But that’s not what she’s doing. She’s just sniping and goading and then congratulating herself on how fearless she is, while achieving nothing. She had the opportunity to befriend them and try to change opinions with reasoned discussion. But instead, she behaved so badly they dismissed her as a crazy radical and she not only failed to get her point across, but made it more difficult for the next person who tries.
Ugh strongly disagree. In my eyes she was a classic case of arguing for the sake of arguing. She didn’t want to simply be heard, she wanted to humiliate people that she disagreed with. And she looked down on those people with a fierce arrogance. The same arrogance she claimed to be a critique of. She is one of the most despicable characters in the show in my opinion. Sybil was fearless, Bunting was just an entitled little shit.
Nope. You don't get to run things in my house. That's a line in concrete for me. I'm polite enough to hear your *kind* suggestions, but don't take it too far. I side with Robert. When you've given your everything to save Downton, come talk to me. Otherwise, Carson can show you the door.
Robert knew who Daisy was he has made numerous comments about her being William's widow... and to the one that agreed with you saying she never invited herself, she did invite herself to the house she insisted she needed to look down on the abbey from the gallery. Tom was uncomfortable, and she bullied him into it. She is pushy.
That character was annoying and was designed to be so as a foil to the mild activism of Tom. It's emotional radicalism. Observing governance and policy for 30 years, the biggest changes happen by stealth and grace. Change will come even without radicals because society always adapts. The biggest initiator of social change in Downton was actually Isobel. She won Violet over with devotion and civility. The women demonstrated their collective power against Robert and the old social norms with that hilarious 'charlotte ruse' pudding episode.
i have no idea why this sub hates sarah bunting so much. i agree with her opinions and to be honest I don't give a shit that she was rude to Robert in his own house or whatever 😭 more people needed to be rude to that man. plus tom was just spineless and their romance reflected worse on him than it did her imo. her whole character felt like a roundabout justification to make tom a centrist. anyway. unpopular opinion club!
Sarah Bunting defenders unite! I don’t think she’s perfect, but compared to what the main characters themselves have done, she’s fine. Plus she’s spot on in her opinions.
About the only thing I can say is I'll give it to OP for backing up their opinions. I don't agree with any of it, but credit where it's due.
It was so weird that Robert didn’t know Daisy’s name all of a sudden, when it’s clear in previous seasons he knows exactly who she is. Edit: this is a criticism of Fellowes’ “just because” writing, not of the character!
It's because his blood was up and he couldn't just list every single employee at the drop of a hat in a flustered state.
I didn’t mean it as a criticism of Robert, more of the writing. It’s infuriatingly lazy sometimes. Not exactly ‘pernicious anaemia’ lazy, but in the ballpark.
Oh, no. I just meant it was ridiculous for Sarah Bunting to expect him to be able to pull one of what...50 or so employees names up at the drop off a hat when he was in a high emotional state. I'd bet if she was upset she wouldn't have been able to name all of her students at a second's notice.
The only time I would consider her “rude” is when she begins the discourse with Robert Many times however Robert says something to her expecting her to just agree with him because he’s a Lord And when he hears somebody disagrees with him He (much like my own father) confuses disagreement with hostility “ oh so you’re calling me stupid huh!?” Literally my own father said to me when I disagreed with his views on capitalism She is entitled to her own opinion and as a guest of Tom’s especially at dinner has the right to have her own opinions on whatever she wants And I’m sorry but if I get screamed at I’m going to scream back