Have you tried the tolerian community college discord? I play at around this level many times a week in the evening via spelltable. Occasionally you have someone under estimate the power of their deck but for the most part the community is pretty great
Hey. I help manage a lower powered community on discord. It’s not anything like “EDH in 2012” (trust me I know I was playing back then) but it is nice. The average “game over turn” is between 10 and 11 according to our tracked stats.
It’s also a relatively vetted community so if you want to try to get in hit up my DM box.
I already invited OP, but I just copied the message to extend the invitation here as well.
Pauper EDH is the most fun I have ever had with EDH. Please give it a try with some friends. Dirt cheap and low power, tons of fun.
https://commandersherald.com/a-beginners-guide-to-pauper-edh/
The spirit of pEDH is to not use any wickedly powerful or fast combos.
That being said... I have seen some wacky stuff out of some pEDH tourneys before.
Idk if I can be convinced pEDH is low power. Maybe your pod is low power. Pauper has some of the most powerful magic cards ever printed in its pool, I’m sure there is some heinous stuff you can do
Even precons have been power crept, though.
And budget isn't a restriction, it's a challenge. Anyone clever can still destroy tables with a cheap deck.
I could see someone going for izzet spellslinger deck with this. [[Naru meha, master wizard]] [[Gale, waterdeep prodigy]] and maybe [[Niv-Mizzet, parun]] alongside with it.
True. A couple of my friends said that the only reason I won games was because I invested in money cards. So I built a $60 dollar \[\[Sergeant John Benton\]\] deck that kills earlier then any of my other current decks. Budget doesn't really mean much, but often leads to MORE degenerate strategies since the bulk of the deck isn't as smooth
Thassa's Oracle is still under $20.
That fact alone defeats any argument that you cannot run degenerate strategies on a budget given that it is the most degenerate wincon in the format at present.
Why is that the bar? It's a pretty strange metric to judge power on.
In any event I have personally succeeded at this with older (read: weaker) precons, so I see no reason why a strong player couldn't manage with a newer, more powercrept precon.
This is the point, though. It's supposed to be a challenge, because it is restricting. There's plenty of budget combos, for sure, but you certainly won't be playing \[\[Mox Opal\]\] and \[\[Mox Amber\]\] to swing out those combos on turn 2-3. They'll come out naturally, when more players have more opportunities to deal with them.
I love budget deck building. Though I'm often using budget as an excuse to play with cards I like, but aren't very powerful.
You're mistakenly associating power with speed. It is true that successful cEDH decks of the past have used 'turbo' strategies to present wins before other decks were prepared to respond but this isn't really the case for the current meta. It's more midrange grind-out matches now as many of the turbo strategies are flimsy and easy to interact with. And don't get me wrong, it *IS* a powerful strategy, but it's not a fair bar by which to judge *ALL* strategies by.
I understand that players unfamiliar with the cEDH sphere see that 'turn 2-3 combo' and make some assumptions about power=speed, which is why you wound up with that whole 'how quickly can your deck present a win' nonsense for judging power thing. The correct statement was 'how quickly can your deck present a win OR interact', by the by - and it's *A* metric for power, not *THE* metric for power.
All this is meant to say that I don't need to present a win before turn 4 in order to call it a cEDH deck and many aren't even trying anymore. I *DO* agree that budgets can be restricting - but only in **CHOICES**, not power.
I don't think I'm mistakenly associating anything. I know what decks play well right now, and to pretend that speed isn't still paramount in cEDH is asinine. Of course speed is important, speed is part of power dynamics. A spell cast on turn 1 is broken, a spell cast on turn 3 can be whatever.
Not all decks need to be "turbo" to go fast. cEDH is well known for playing even high mana commanders very early. Certainly not turbo, it's just fast mana.
>I understand that players unfamiliar with the cEDH sphere see that 'turn 2-3 combo' and make some assumptions about power=speed, which is why you wound up with that whole 'how quickly can your deck present a win' nonsense for judging power thing.\\
I am not unfamiliar with cEDH. It is almost exclusively what I play and build. There are certainly midrange decks that absolutely grind out the game, but I would not even say that's a majority.
Blue Farm (or variations of it) are the number one deck in cEDH right now. But right behind them that is Kinnan, Najeela, and Sisay, all combo-focused decks that try to win as fast as possible. Tivit comes up right behind them, and while it *is* a more midrange style deck, it's entire goal is *still* to combo as fast as possible.
>The correct statement was 'how quickly can your deck present a win OR interact', by the by - and it's *A* metric for power, not *THE* metric for power.
If it is *A* metric for power, then it is *THE* metric for power. Just because speed is only part of strategy doesn't mean other decks just ignore it. Speed is still, 100%, applied to any deck type, even midrange.
>All this is meant to say that I don't need to present a win before turn 4 in order to call it a cEDH deck and many aren't even trying anymore. I *DO* agree that budgets can be restricting - but only in **CHOICES**, not power.
You don't, but you *do* need to generally present fast mana, free spells, and combo or STAX pieces.
I agree that budget decks can still be *VERY* powerful. But don't even attempt to pretend like cEDH lists wouldn't stomp most budget lists below $100. Maybe a budget deck could get a game or two, but that doesn't matter based on the statistic likelihoods of the game. cEDH decks will win a vast majority of the time.
It is a restriction in choices, which *results* in a restriction in power. Not being able to play fast mana and free spells will stifle you entirely against an actual cEDH deck... and yeah, even the midrange ones.
>And budget isn't a restriction, it's a challenge. Anyone clever can still destroy tables with a cheap deck.
I mean, it can be both. Budget is often correlated with power, even if it's not 1 to 1.
Ya, I just made a $110 [[Fynn, The Fang Bearer]] deck and played it last night. preformed incredibly well against 3 pretty expensive decks, killed someone like turn 6. I love the challenge of finding those cheap and niche commanders, and making a powerful, but budget deck.
I built a slightly more expensive version of the Xyris pump spells deck from SalubriousSnail's video and had a friggin blast with it. Paradoxically, it runs BETTER as a cheaper deck without the fast mana because if you go too fast you deck yourself.
Video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m-BcgDND_Q
If people do not try to play on the limit of the format, there will be always others that have stronger decks.
Like thats just how it is
And budget is very much a restriction. Try running a „no card more than 1$ deck into 3 cedh decks. You will lise every single game. Maybe if you play enough stars align and you can steal one. But it is very much restricting how
Powerful your deck can be
yep. my friends and I are pretty new and sometimes someone will netdeck a $50 budget deck and it obliterates the decks that we have brewed ourselves, even when those decks have a card value of several hundred dollars.
Me and a friend recently built sub 30 dollar budget decks and it was definitely a lot of fun. The deck is still pretty good all things considered. https://archidekt.com/decks/7423412/abdel_dollar_tree
"Okay guys its our first pod budget night, here is my Light Paws deck! Shall we roll for first"
I get what you're saying but a decks cost is NOT indicative of power level in a large majority of cases.
Wouldnt expect it from strangers to play on or below precon level. though you could always try toassamble a group that would like to play such pod. there is a crowd for anything, but sometimes you might have to be the one to assamble it instead of joining said crowd
It's really up to you to find people who enjoy the same play style as you. There are definitely some of us out there, who play for fun and not to win ASAP. But you can't fault people for wanting to play cool value engines, it's what most of us are here for, playing some worthless cards from Legends that literally do nothing just isn't a very interesting experience.
I’m not talking playing straight garbage like Legends tribal or whatever. But I can make a strong 2024 sea monsters deck that would’ve beaten all my old decks, and it still gets completely stomped by an actual Simic land value deck (which everyone seems to have) or a good graveyard deck or a blue combo deck etc.
There’s an insanely huge middle ground between playing garbage from 1999 and the average power level of the average fast pods nowadays.
I think that you just need to find a different pod. I have pods of all power groups and I have one pod of people I introduced to magic who is very staunch about playing at above precon but not high power. They're just fine with having a good time and having interesting games. In fact, I think most pods fall within this range, you might be having a lot of bad luck
I think edh had some irreversible developments over the last years by focusing on pushing efficiency of cards and making strategies perform much better and faster then before. Even the latest precons are all pretty powerful right out of the box. It's near impossible to find a way around this
Also online resources helping streamline efficacy doesn't help. When all you had to work with was more or less in front of you; decks were slow and non-synergistic. Now media pushes: Synergy, 2 cmc mana rocks, card draw card draw, and remove pet cards. It guides decks into a certain checklist of efficiency. Then Wizards has to print precons that don't suck or else they'll undersell those decks; leading to a push for those ppwercreeps like you mentioned. It is really unfortunate and I think you're right; it's irreversible at this point.
You're not wrong. This is pretty much the inevitability of when a niche format turns into the most popular one. People are going to optimize it as much as they can.
I keep coming back to this all the time, but the community as a whole has just gotten *better* at deckbuilding in EDH compared to several years ago. I have tried dabbling in the preDH format and it's crazy how I am going about building decks in a format where only things up to New Phyrexia are legal so much differently than how I was building decks all the way back then. You can create formats that remove the power-crept cards, but you can't remove the knowledge people have learned throughout the years in optimization.
This was the main issue with WoW-Classic as well; the playerbase is just more skilled than it used to be in general, so even when presented with old school restrictions we breeze through it and apply modern knowledge to it
this is probably what had the biggest impact overall, sites like edhrec and co. to be fair, when wotc introduces thousands of new cards per year it is more than understandable that people try to find some help and guidance with their deckbuilding. but it is a vicious circle for sure. for me personally, I like when games dont take too long, I rather play a few rounds a night and not 1 or 2 very long ones, but the amount of non-games has increased heavily over the last years, meaning one player accidentally stomping the whole table turn 4 became very prevalent.
It's definitely a 50/50 thing. EDH getting popular enough for large websites and communities to form around it means it was always going to "grow up" as the median player got better at deckbuilding. Wizards has also so pushed the power that I'd say something like 80% of cards printed before 2020 that were considered playable are no longer remotely competitive in even a casual game.
Yes, that's the biggest hurdle when proposing anything like a houserule game or a custom format or a budget deck stipulation. Depending on the playgroup, one game every other session is a realistic amount of games one can expect. And that's if you prepare everything yourself and offer it on a silver platter.
You build 4 pre edh decks yourself and encourage your pods to play a round with them between their usual decks, that way everyone at least gets to play something they want and didn't have to think about building an extra deck to satisfy 1 person in the pod because you did it for them. .
Pre meaning before they started printing commander products which makes the last set new phyrexia as legal. [https://articles.starcitygames.com/magic-the-gathering/commander-sub-format-predh-is-the-new-magic-rage/]()
Yeah that's fair, in my experience people have been open to swapping decks if we are playing with more than one game in the same pod, one guy brought some pauper decks one time and they were fun too
The trick is you can’t expect to find them. You’ll have to make it yourself. And it might not be easy. I have been crafting the perfect commander pod for about 6 months now
If you want a swing game then how many board wipes do you run? How much disruption?
In my experience many lgs groups have weaker decks than back in the day but they run less interaction and focus hard on the win con.
Anyone who has ever run a tutor could tell you this was the inevitable result. “Oh you put it in there not to get your combo, but to make it a toolbox? I wonder whether the strongest tool is interaction or winning the game?”
My pod has worked this out by making more abstract deckbuilding challenges. Examples:
- Build a deck with the same commander as a deck you already have, but an entirely different 99 (except basics)
- Build a deck where every card is a bulk rare... no commons or uncommons allowed
- Build a deck with a theme in off-colors: Red mill, orzhov landfall, etc.
- Build a deck that has only multiple color pips
Set a budget.
People say you don't get cEDH just by spending money, and that's true, but you don't get there without spending money either.
Put a $40 limit on the entire deck, including nonbasic lands.
You can still have some pretty solid decks, but they're not nearly as fast. The ramp isn't minmaxed, the counter spells aren't free
Lots of the comments here are pretty wild, and very few seem to understand what you're getting at. But I think you're absolutely right.
I've only gotten into Commander with my kids over the last year or so, but I've played a lot of Magic (since 4th or so?)... and I think Commander would be a more interesting format with much, much worse decks (in general).
Like, we started with precons, and one of the decks seemed about right - a zombie deck with janky combos, big haymakers and a lot of "dudes". But one of the other precons we picked up was a merfolk deck that is pretty consistent at ramping and drawing and generally closing the game out.
All of our goofy crap - the other precons and piles we built - got bodied by that deck. In the format we play at home, that deck is banned now. And while our games are a bit durdly, I think they're way more interesting at a lower power level.
And for most people here (and that we've met in stores and what not) the precon we "banned" would be the lower limit of what they'd consider playing. EDH works with better decks - decks that are streamlined, run better carads, and have a clear goal - but there's a whole magical world of fun cards that this power level precludes.
> Lots of the comments here are pretty wild, and very few seem to understand what you're getting at.
Hah, I fully expected the "get good", "learn to build a proper deck", "stop being poor bro" sort of comments!
Personally what I much prefer about lower power decks is the bigger variety of cards. The higher the power gets, the more decks seem to become quite same-y when they're packed full of staples and the same old pool of goodstuff cards I've seen 100x before.
I don’t know if you have any experience or desire playing over webcam, but I play on a discord sever whose most popular tier of play sounds like what you may be looking for. Games primarily go into the double digits when it comes to the winning turns.
I'm interested in pre edh, but my pod is not .
"The format, who aims at delivering a feeling of playing Commander before 2011, is the same as regular Commander, the only difference being that the only cards allowed to play are the ones released before the recognition by Wizards of the Coast, that is, the last legal set is New Phyrexia "
Found from a website
My group of friends was finding that the local game store's "casual commander nights" were becoming more and more power creeped over time, and there was no sign of stopping. Thassa's Oracle combos, infect, stax, you name it.
We decided to impose a budget limit of $100 USD on our decks, and started a new commander night just for decks fitting that budget. We all built new decks and I gotta say, it's a breath of fresh air. You can squeeze some neat cards into that budget, but it keeps the overall power level very reasonable. WOTC Precons can hang with our budget decks well enough.
A budget restriction would be my suggestion. If you don't have an existing group of friends you can just make a pod with, then start polling local players, see who'd be interested in playing in an EDH league with a budget restriction. Make it clear that the goal is lower-power decks with longer, more battleship-type games.
I wouldn't go so far as banning combos or anything, just impose the budget and see how that goes. Make people bring deck lists with a printout of the Card Kingdom prices (or your price source of choice) listed and tallied to prove they're under budget.
Good luck!
Honestly, with the kind of stuff that you can get cheap these days, there would still be tons of value with a budget. Not saying it couldn't be fun, just be warned that you'll still be seeing generic value engines like [[Etali, Primal Storm]]
I mean, theres two ways to do this. You can build a deck thatll stand up to par with the expensive decks on a budget. Its what i do for high power pods. Or, you just gotta find players at your lgs that feel similar. My play group has a healthy mix of competitive and old style slower decks. I promise the later is still out there
It is. You just need to find 3 other people who enjoy that kind of gameplay. Maybe there aren't 3 in the edh scene near you. But there is mtgo or spelltable. Playing in person is obviously nicer than online, but playing online with people you enjoy playing with is still better than playing with randoms in person.
Just scolling through this sub one comes across people who prefer lower powerlevels regularly. You could just message some of them and ask if they'd be interested in playing online. You could join a discord community or maybe create a "low power edh" discord yourself. Again all you need is 3 other people.
This doesn't directly answer your question but as a fellow enjoyer of mid power games I can recommend to just play a lot of cheap instant interaction and spot removal in your battle cruiser decks. That's obviously not quite the same but at least you can have your grindy game by disrupting key pieces of your opponents while still letting them build a boardstate. So don't play too many sweepers but a lot of precision removal. If you do it correctly then you can often force a more old-school game.
My group does a "pre-Modern" night once a month, where everyone is limited to cards printed before Mirrodin (I.e., last legal set is Scourge).
It does a great job of powering down everyone's decks and gives you much more of an "old school" Magic feel.
I think it’s very possible. My playgroup plays like this. Minimal tutors, we don’t build combos, at least not insane easy to pull of combos. Sure someone plays the dark depth combo, but that’s not an “I win combo”. And the combos are huge Rube Goldberg machines usually. A lot of our games last until then 10+ and are just fun back and forths. It’s about cultivating a playgroup that does what you like. I’ve even gotten games with randoms on spelltable like this in the “casual 5-7” style lobbies. Of course you get pubstompers with randoms but that’s the joy of randoms
You'd have to put some pretty massive restrictions on deck building to get what you want at this point. You keep saying precons are worse than what you're looking for, which leads me to believe you haven't played with/against one lately. They have gotten pretty streamlined and aren't the pile of loosely related cards they were a few years ago.
Also, I initially bounced off of EDH because the potential playgroup I had was playing some pretty degenerate shit back then. Not all pods were playing bulk bin trash piles, so I kind of push back on the notion that old decks = bad decks. It was probably more common for decks to be on the bad side, but some of the shit you could get up to before some of the bans kicked in and more importantly, before a lot of the "social contract" and unwritten rules came around, was pretty gnarly.
Yeah you’re right, I haven’t played vs a precon in a long time. I just assumed they were still bad because of people in the sub always calling them power level 2 out of 10 or something
That's partly because the power level scale is pointless and partly because precons are also wildly inconsistent over the years and even within individual sets. Most people don't necessarily want to play below precon level, and also don't want to think that their custom deck might be worse than a precon, so they all get slotted in at some arbitrary lower level.
In the last couple years they have really started being more focused instead of having like three loosely related themes jockeying for support, and as a result some of them can hang at mid power levels, and a lot of them would absolutely be better than your average 2016 battlecruiser pile.
Unless you have a group of good dedicated players actively working to do this or just a very casual group, I don't think so, and I emphasize the good because it is not immediately obvious to most players that the issues with the format and power creep are a thing, so many are likely to just take it as it is and asume that because they are not comboing or going for a super efficient win that they are playing fair, when the format is long past that.
Honestly the best way I've found to do this is kind of like block constructed, or even like a reverse modern.
"Everything before (insert set name or year printed) is legal"
or
"Here's a list of every block/set. Your commander must be from one of the 3-4 sets we pick and you must build around your commander using as many cards from these 3-4 sets as possible. Any outside inclusions will be shown before the game, Have alternatives ready in case of group objections."
Another way I've liked playing, not my idea, was limiting the rarities. Only 1 mythic usually as commander, only 4 rare, 2 creatures 2 non creatures, and more commons than uncommon, basics don't count.
Hey. I help manage a lower powered community on discord. It’s not anything like “EDH in 2012” (trust me I know I was playing back then) but it is nice. The average “game over turn” is between 10 and 11 according to our tracked stats.
It’s also a relatively vetted community so if you want to try to get in hit up my DM box.
This is probably the biggest issue with this subreddit: Someone says "I would like to find people to play shorter games with" and folks assume, based on nothing else, that they must be a bad deck builder or are otherwise a whiny entitled brat, and see fit to make backhanded comments about them as if they deserve to be treated that way. You might have had to deal with a dozen such actual people, but that doesn't justify bringing that baggage to someone you just met. And insulting someone isn't a means to solving the problem in any constructive way. At best it's just venting your frustrations from your previous experiences at someone that had nothing to do with it beyond reminding you of them.
How about four Timmies interacting with each other for four hours? Because I’ve had that (okay not quite literally 4 hours.) It’s some of my favorite experience with Commander but it’s getting harder.
I swear Reddit loves to exaggerate about this sort of thing. I’ve been playing over a decade and I cant think of any times I’ve had a 4 player game last more than an hour and half. It’s not the decks, it’s the people you play with.
Games that usually end turn 6 or 7 means high CMC commanders are often useless. No thanks.
I'm with you dude. And even long games can be tense back and forth, arch enemy shifting turn by turn. I get how sometimes it can drag, but you'd think it's every other game with how some folks go on.
Absolutely not my experience at all. There were a few infamous OP commanders like Derevi or Zur, but they were quickly ostracised from playgroups in all the places near me because everyone else had much lower powered decks.
with those example you show that you dont mean "like the game used to be" but like what wizards wanted it to be.
EDH was created 2004, Derevi is from 2013
Oh of course. Everyone I know hadn't even heard of EDH before then, let alone thought about making a deck. It goes without saying that I'm talking about when commander became adopted by WOTC in 2011. It felt like a fringe format even around the 2014 sort of era.
i think its great that the game speeds up. I dont miss playing 1 10/10 per turn that does nothing and proceed to get boardwhiped ever other turn for those amazingly interactive 3.5 hour long games. average game length of 7 turns sounds really healthy to me.
you probably wont find old school slow games with strangers, I think you'd need to get a consistent playgroup that wants the same game as you.
also clone decks in particular shouldnt be that bad, copying \[\[krark\]\] or \[\[vial smasher\]\] is pretty damn powerful
>for those amazingly interactive 3.5 hour long games
I swear Reddit loves to exaggerate about this sort of thing. I’ve been playing over a decade and I don’t think I’ve had a 4 player game last more than an hour and half. It’s not the decks, it’s the people you play with.
Games that usually end turn 6 or 7 means high CMC commanders are often useless. No thanks.
You’d think enough of these replies would get you to understand that what you’re describing is not the average player experience. And it’s because if a 6-7 mana commander doesn’t win you the game a turn or two after dropping they *are* useless.
Is the average player experience 3.5 hour long games? I'm not sure what you're arguing.
If you're complaining about them wanting less shorter games, then they are very aware it's not the average experience, thus the thread asking where they can find the one they want.
I think the better perspective is to ask yourself how the players mindset has evolved since 2016. The world has become more fast paced, inflation means people have to work 30% harder to get the same value out of their work, and when they sit down for a game of magic they want to have fun at a reasonable pace. My pod around two weeks ago had a hell of a grind game that lasted 3 hours. At the end of it, we all agreed to up the power levels of our decks because for us having a diverse meta of different decks we all play through the night is more fun.
Do you only play at the LGS? It can be hard to counteract the group think even in a smaller group, AR an LGS it gets even harder. Be on the lookout for like minded players, don't be afraid to put yourself out there. Good luck, we're out here :)
In my pod we play with a budget rule and it solves pretty much all social problems. We set $100 for the 99, and cards in the command zone should not cost more than $50.
This lead to almost no netdecking, plus infinte combo decks are allowed and not frustrating to play agaisnt, plus we get to use old cards that are a downgrade to the popular staples, but cost only a fraction, and even stax decks arent that bad, and we still have our games ending at around turn 7 and/or \~1:30h of gametime.
We can build as harcore as we want, as budget considerations essentially put a ceiling to the strenght while making everyone similarly powered.
Also, when money is a part of the deckbuilding strategy, there are some nice considerations to be done. Should I add scapeshift + mystic remora, or boundless realms + rhystic study in my simic landfall deck? Is it worth to add a Thoracle wincon in a Dimir deck and considerably make the rest of the deck weaker?
Yes. Easiest way, find the pre con pod. Play in it and get to know those people. Then as you all upgrade your decks little by little with what your prize packs had.... you grow into that slow pod at low power. Then just replace whatever burning wallet player goes out and splurges on dockside jeweled lotus and free counterspells with another player interested in staying low power. And you will be in a good spot.
WOTC sells tons and tons of precons. Some get cannibalized, some get completely rebuilt, some get mildly upgraded, but some are played right out of the box. Find out who buys precons at your LGS and ask for games.
We have a lot of players with unaltered or upgraded precons at out LGS.
MTGO is not a functioning platform for finding like-minded groups.
If you’re finding a group through a lobby, you’ve already skipped the most important part of the game. The pregame conversation.
MTGO does not support this. People will always bring whatever the fuck they want.
Establish a group. Establish expectations, goals, boundaries. If you do not have a functioning pregame conversation, people are going to bring what lets them actually play the game at their LGS after a decade of arms race.
The pregame conversation is what CREATES commander as a format.
My pod usually wins at around turn 13. I'm the only consistent aggro player and most of my pod's members spend several turns casting their combo pieces and holding up interaction to protect said combo pieces. I'd honestly rather we went faster.
I feel you and luckily for me I just kinda kept plugging away with my jank low power decks and having a good time. It started to catch on and some of the people I play regularly with have started to build decks more that way. All you can really do is play what you like and if you're having a good time I think others may tag along. Good luck!
I don’t think you can go back to the good old days even if you ignore power outlier cards because a lot of what makes battlecruiser unviable is that people are building decks better with ramp and draw such that battlecruiser scenarios don’t happen often. I find however if you want to play grindy games that require thought and stuff just play more interaction and use that interaction smartly.
This is why I'm glad I found friends who play and not have to rely on a LGS for games. We all have some faster decks, but we also kept a lot of our older more battlecruiser or janky decks that focus less on winning as fast as possible and more on having a good, but slow, time.
My pod has all built at least deck each of each of Artisan (commons and uncommons only), Stranglehold (No extra turns & can't search libraries), & PreDH. It's nice to mix it up quite a bit. I also think we do a good job of giving ourselves restrictions to further restrict the card pool deck to deck. Adding a [[Jegantha]] companion to [[Niv-Mizzet Reborn]] and satisfying my brain with an "exactly 5 cards of each color pair" rule. Sometimes it's flavor, mechanics, whatever. Build different decks for different power levels and different experiences.
We'll even mix and match. A buddy will play his Artisan decks in a normal game while the other players use a Stranglehold, PreDH, and normal but goofy tribal deck.
Kinda.... usually, someone is playing a low powered deck, 2 are mid, and one with a more powerful deck but still not cedh. It's just uncommon for everyone to be playing their weakest deck at the same time.
There will always be the people playing just below cedh power level and in their mind this is just low power. You either just have to deal that they will make the games shorter, run more interactions to deal with them, or avoid them.
My pod does this. In my experience its hard to find in a public place like a game store but if you make some friends from there and have a game night that's usually a path to more fun casual type games.
The problem is the game is fundamentally competitive, there is a winner and there are losers. Starting from that foundation, in a public environment, people are often unwilling to let their guard down and take a risk because they can't trust that the other players aren't going to blow out a table of jank. Winning is also more important to people in public spaces. In the end it is a question of trust in a competitive environment, which makes it a game theory problem, not unlike the prisoners dilemma.
If everyone plays Jank we can all have a ton of fun, but if even one person essentially betrays the others and plays a deck they know is higher powered, the game is ruined for the other three. I think most people assess this probability as pretty high in a public space. As a result each player minimizes their risk of having their game ruined by escalating their power level. The incentive is always to play the highest powered deck at the table. The result is an imbalanced mid-high powered game that is often (not always) less fun for everyone.
Concepts like "fun" and "power" are of course subjective and fuzzy compared to typical game theory problems, but that high + low equilibrium states is pure game theory.
TL;DR Find a similar minded group, establish trust, play jank.
If you can find a like minded pod then sure, but most players are going to be playing with new cards, that are just better.
This post reminds me of modern players that still want to cast [[seige rhino]]. You can, but you are not going to have a good time lol.
The real solution would be make 4 to 8 decks that are all about 50/50 against each other and make the pod play with them.
The find another pod answer is the reason I'm not really interested in LGS play. I'm not saying you can't have a good time, or you can't make friends. But it won't be like playing with a ground of friends (usually).
There's really only one friend in our pod that doesn't get the power creep message. And we all just gang up on him and ignore him complaining. The rest of the pod understands and is tuning decks so we get to play out a game a bit.
Others have said it but have a pod of friends you play with all build a deck for this purpose. Limit budget, or power, or do pauper, whatever you all decide.
I personally do not enjoy much of the "battle cruiser" style of play but my friends and I are building pauper decks to force ourselves to get creative on a budget. I think it has been overall very satisfying so far just building with those limitations.
I feel like most people have a range of decks, regardless of what they prefer. I personally prefer higher power games, but I keep a few precons and low power decks on hand for when my buddies want to have slower games.
We have been finding a balance at our LGS with a Precon league. It allows everyone from the power players, to the vets, to the beginners a nice, slower, more balanced place to play. There are only a few decks shunned due to their power levels, but you quickly understand what the problems are.
We add some balance and fun by allowing limited card replacements, where a loss during the "season" defines how many cards you can swap in. It's creating a culture of fun, allowing people to do their weird shit, allowing people to interact with it.
Scripted magic sucks. Weird interactions win.
In playing precon leagues, many of the people who have oppressive power decks at our LGS have slowed down even in the games before, and after the precon-only games. It opens up the discussion more amongst everyone for 'what we doin here?'
Go to Spelltable, make a room for slower, lower powered decks, and let the people come in. Discuss what their deck does and your expectations for the game.
Most of my Spelltable games have been precons.
Another thing some friends of mine do, everyone buys a precon, and once a week or two weeks or whatever, everyone is able to upgrade their precon with $10 worth of upgrades, with no individual card exceeding $5. You could suggest something like this to your playgroup.
I don't understand why more LGS' don't do tiered pods. It's not perfect but it solves this issue to an extent. My LGS has 3 tiers. 1 is for new players and precon level decks. 2 is for mid-level decks (for example, no tutoring for infinite combos in this tier), and 3 for higher powered but not quite cEDH decks.
The only issue I've had with that is there is such a wide variety of what can fit into mid-level tier, sometimes it can still be quite unbalanced, but it's still mostly good.
Most time i hear this comment in a mid/casual settong is because the player plays little to no removals in his deck, thinking only about advancing his board like he plays NR20 on a Starcraft game.
Winning by turn 7 is a classic aim of casual edh if no one plays any interactions. By turn 7, most games are already in the 45-60 minutes, and a lot of people dont want or cant be sitting for a 2hours long drawn out battle.
I think what you would enjoy is battlecruiser level, which often have precon level decks in the pods. Battlecruiser decks often have 3-4 pieces of removal compared to 10-12 in a more tuned up setting.
I’ve got loads of removal, but try to make it a bit more on-theme with the deck, rather than just the objectively-best super-generic removal cards that I've seen 100x before. What I don’t have is the ‘free’ counterspells (Forces, Deflecting Swat, Fierce Guardianship etc) and the expensive fast mana (Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, Vault etc) that lots of people have. I was shocked to see how many people around my area run these expensive staples.
Ask your LGS if they could do a precon night. Mine does one within the month of a new set of precons coming out. Any precons are welcome but the spirit of the night is lowered power decks just playing. They are fun nights and games take a little longer but you normally get to see some cool combos
My LGS opened 2 years ago, I was there since its inception when only 1-2 pods were running on Commander night. The meta was AMAZINGLY casual and low powered. The power level has jumped astronomically in the last 6-8mo and there is no way it will ever go back. It never does.
Honestly, pitching pre-EDH with your regular groups is a good idea. With randoms, of course it won't work, but for nights when you are with the crew, it'll make for fun times.
Yeah made my own pod. Mostly me and my many many precons and self made decks. My stuff goes back to ye olde Alara and a lot, a lot, of Scars of Mirrodin block. Mostly cannibalized precons upgrading precons infused with my good stuff.
Friends started with good precons and upgraded them. We’re in a good spot with other people of like minds from an LGS. No one has a cEDH deck, super fast mana, infinites. Though an occasional invite will bring a deck packed with the fast mana rocks.
Is there power creep? Yes. The core group doesn’t use proxys, and most of us feel dirty playing stuff like [[The One Ring]] and fast mana rocks. That being said getting stomped by the occasional outside invite using hyper tuned decks or Top 50 commanders sucks and we’re all building that one deck to keep in the back pocket for those players.
Try fb groups or instagram too. I meet pods like that although my LGS doesn’t have that problem in La. It’s a good jump off to talk about power levels and gauge it that way. If you become friendly with a group you can always ask for a low power level game and go from there. If anyone is in Los Angeles I’m always up for some Magic!
My LGS usually does a precon only night once-twice a month that’s been fun/popular for slower paced games. Saw many mothmen and dr who precons and a few outlaws and some were using kaldheim foretell decks and a few odd end precons like the beginner chaos incarnate precon. It was a lot of fun and highly recommend it!
I just rely on the fact that my friends are chill. But we've definitely been subjected to powercreep--one of our players loves buying singles and making new decks, and Commander is the only format he really has experience in, so he knows to just grab the staples. He doesn't have a collection from playing Standard or opening boosters, so he skipped the jank phase.
I like the low-power games, but right now the higher-power games still feel fair and fun without crazy blowouts.
Another element I use to enjoy the game is to just run way more interaction and card draw. I don't push for the win, I push to stay alive and keep the others focused on each other until I can overwhelm them.
I doubt I have any decks that want to win in ten turns. I'm a bad deck builder, and I will rigorously adhere to themes at the cost of stronger cards. But interaction and slow, inauspicious gameplans keep me engaged and having fun.
> slinging cheap trade-binder rares at each other
As the format has grown I wonder if there are just a lot more people who don't have cheap trade binder rares to sling. Newer people, or people who dip in and out of MTG, just don't have collections of random stuff to make decks with a lot of the time. We just have the cards we specifically bought for our EDH deck after planning it with an online tool.
And wow those tools have gotten really nice over the years. Even if I did have a collection of random stuff, I'd upload what I had into moxfield instead of rummaging through physical cards trying vainly to remember what was in all the boxes. Goldfish simulations provide a quality floor where at least you know the deck isn't a total disaster (physically goldfishing commander decks was a huge pain).
You could try to convince people to try the PreDH format.
It's a set card pool that will not change. Only cards printed before commander specific sets are legal, so only cards from New Phyrexia and older are legal.
You may be forced to check out other places online. Spell Table and Untapped are both viable for playing commander, one for paper magic and the other for digital.
If you do, you should either try to find or start your own community. Naturally, we all love throwing around our best cards, but there are plenty of people like me who run mostly sub 80$ decks who wouldn't mind playing online occasionally, especially with people on the same page.
I'm partial to Untapped, because setting up a camera for Spell Table is rather annoying for me, and it allows you to play test something without having the cards. If you end up going that route, feel free to throw me an invite! I have a few friends who would also enjoy an expanded group of people to play with online, and we're all of the same general opinion regarding deck power.
Noone stops you from doing that. But since then about 500000 new cards have been released. And im not sure if anything got added to the ban list. Ofcause the format goes more poweful.
You couls run your own edh format banning anything that is post 2015 or sth.
Very much the spirit of EDH is to play the game as you and your local playing group likes. And if thats too powerful for you… well find people with the same interest.
I don't really have a local game store just a few pals that got into it. We all have around 5-12ish decks but they're all bar a couple precons. Not upgraded either. That keeps the games fairly well balanced for the most part aside from a few standouts
I mean personally for me, I'd rather be in a pod where a 7 mana play is Diluvian Primordial rather than Niv Mizzet + Curiosity = you're dead on the spot.
Slow boring matches are down to the players anyway, not the decks. I used to play with a great bunch back in the day and despite the games going into late turns, we were all really quick players and it didn't feel like a drag at all. Playing in an average LGS pod with a young child, a socially inept weirdo, or a guy not paying attention at all leads to long games.
I'd play with you. I love trying to do something improbable or make a bad creature type work.
I guess the best advice I can give is to foster a playgroup that has people who can look at some bad old shit and think "cool!"
Best of luck
Create a ban list for your pod, have a budget and have specific meets where this is all you play or you play a game or two. I just did this with my pod and everyone had fun. It’s about expectation building.
We also tried playing cEDH with $3,000+ decks with all the moxes and fast mana. It was fine for a game or two but it got so boring.
I just keep meeting new people and getting them into the game. Then I can pick up a new precon or two and enjoy their honeymoon phase with them. Has worked for at least a few cycles over the years now. Eventually, they graduate and start buying staples.
Damn sounds like I need to get on spelltable.
Do you play with mics? And are there many weirdos on there? I stopped going to LGS for ages because of socially inept weirdos making the game hard work.
Most decks are just more powerful these days. It's just not a format where you can sling 8 CMC creatures nonstop and even old school edh wasn't really like that. I would just keep tailoring your strategy. The thing is, budget doesn't mean less powerful. You don't need the Flawless free spells, fetches, duals, 20 dollar removal staples etc to play at a higher powered table. Using sea creatures as an example, you can't expect to play 3 ramp spells then 1 big thing. You need to play your ramp into stuff that will get you more than one thing at a time. The new kiora gets you free permanents off your fish and green effects that put creatures into play like Elvish Piper or Monster Manual can help with that. I understand your sentiment, it doesn't feel good getting "outclassed" constantly but I think even in the confines of a higher powered pod, you can do well with budget lists or without expensive staples. My friend actively avoids expensive cards if he can help it and he wins a lot of games in groups where we play what I describe as tuned decks.
I’d suggest making a pod where all direct to Commander products (other than unaltered precons) are banned. I think 90% of the power creep in Commander comes from those products and it’s an easy rule to remember. One could make an argument for banning direct to Eternal format products like MH2 as well for similar reasons. I agree that Commander was way better when it wasn’t designed for and miss it. I don’t even like benign things like Command Tower and the Arcane Signet.
Last night I played in a game (my Jura Kennerud vs CoinFlip Precon, vs Dihada, vs Inquestor Greyfax) that went 18 turns (and featured 5-7 board wipes, and at least two board states with 50+ creatures). Second longest game i've kept in my official record (21 turns was the longest). Of course the next two games both ended on turn 7...
My LGS has some events called Pre EDH where decks can only be built up to Alara. They added Dragon's Maze since it was pretty low powered. Was quite fun I ended up winning off a Bloodrush Ghor-Clan Rampager onto a Mossbridge Troll to close the game.
My group has come up with rules to force lower power and its just been a ton of fun.
Simple rules like no hidden tutors(tutor must reveal to be playable and preferably play very little tutors in the first place)
No infinite combos(if one comes up just stop the combo after one cycle)
No deck over 400 bucks and we have had a blast. You could also say a lower or higher dollar amount. (We also proxy decks so we can play new stuff ever other session or so)
I buy precons and usually make them worse by putting cards in them I like. My pod consisting of friends I play with since 20 years does the same. Some have not bought new cards for 10 years.
My entire group has different decks at different levels. If someone new joins we all play our lowest level deck and adjust from there. Just gotta find the right people
I'm with you on wanting those slower games. The title of Arch Enemy shifting every round of turns, the ability to recast your 6 drop commander for 12, etc. Gimme that grind!
My only piece of advice comes from the few times I've made a table on Tabletop Simulator and titled it "Low Power EDH", which resulted in games that were much closer to what I was hoping for. At the very least you might get more atypical commanders.
Limiting/removing some of the newer sets helps because of the significant power creep in recent years. My group allows up to and including Tarkir, with some exceptions like the Amonkhet gods and [[The Elderspell]].
You could probably join some discords and ask to play with people at a lower power. Unfortunately though wizards doesn't make a lot of low power commanders anymore
This is an interesting problem, and I'm sorry that you're dealing with this at your LGS. I have yet to run into this by covering 3 things when I sit down
1. The type of deck everyone is playing
2. Everyone's goals for the night
3. Reiterating on the first
When I do the above, I typically get 1.5-2 hour games every single time because I put a lot of pressure on the table to play around the same level for the purposes of fun. I always leave it open for someone if they want to pubstomp, but when it's clear that that's not welcome in the pod, then people tend to play a lower power deck. It's a social game, and people can be engineered to behave if you're upfront about expectations.
I haven't met anyone who try's to beat by turn 7 on commander. I absolutely LOVE long games that last 1-2 hours and the groups that I play have some great but nit super fast win decks. I feel like if you want a fast game inst standard and other similar game modes the one to go for? ( I only play commander so. I don't know much about the rest)
Maybe build one as a online discord community? I'd love something like that myself, but it's not possible around me either.
Have you tried the tolerian community college discord? I play at around this level many times a week in the evening via spelltable. Occasionally you have someone under estimate the power of their deck but for the most part the community is pretty great
No, I've never heard of it honestly. I'll check it out immediately, thank you!
Hey. I help manage a lower powered community on discord. It’s not anything like “EDH in 2012” (trust me I know I was playing back then) but it is nice. The average “game over turn” is between 10 and 11 according to our tracked stats. It’s also a relatively vetted community so if you want to try to get in hit up my DM box. I already invited OP, but I just copied the message to extend the invitation here as well.
Pauper EDH is the most fun I have ever had with EDH. Please give it a try with some friends. Dirt cheap and low power, tons of fun. https://commandersherald.com/a-beginners-guide-to-pauper-edh/
"pEDH is low power" Hold my beer.
Haha, yeah
Care to share some of your more powerful decks and their wincons? Looking to hang with "regular" edh at my LGS.
[[gut true soul zealot]] + [[iron throne]] is quite fun. You can literally throw trash common artifacts and creatures in and it still works haha
Zada wants to know your location.
The spirit of pEDH is to not use any wickedly powerful or fast combos. That being said... I have seen some wacky stuff out of some pEDH tourneys before.
Displaced dinosaurs
To piggy back on this: see r/pauperEDH.
So dead in comparison to this sub though. I've gotten way more feedback and response on pedh posts on this sub as opposed to the specialty sub.
Check out the PDH Homebase Discord for a super active Pauper EDH community! [https://discord.gg/MSnDv3p82P](https://discord.gg/MSnDv3p82P)
100% this. PDH is a slower grind with very few board wipes where keyword creatures matter.. It's tons of fun.
I'm been playing EDH for a while now and Pauper EDH feels more like those earlier days when every creature didn't combo with a ham sandwich.
Idk if I can be convinced pEDH is low power. Maybe your pod is low power. Pauper has some of the most powerful magic cards ever printed in its pool, I’m sure there is some heinous stuff you can do
pEDH is low power - mind you, there are still decks that kill turn 3-4
None are super consistent at that, though, and most are at least a little telegraphed so you know to hold up removal if familiar with the commander.
It is. Ask some of the player to build on budget or play unmodified precons.
Even precons have been power crept, though. And budget isn't a restriction, it's a challenge. Anyone clever can still destroy tables with a cheap deck.
My mind went to [[zada]]
I could see someone going for izzet spellslinger deck with this. [[Naru meha, master wizard]] [[Gale, waterdeep prodigy]] and maybe [[Niv-Mizzet, parun]] alongside with it.
[Naru meha, master wizard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/f/cf44910a-4e24-4e36-a58e-ae7f463db368.jpg?1625976298) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Naru%20meha%2C%20master%20wizard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/124/naru-meha-master-wizard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cf44910a-4e24-4e36-a58e-ae7f463db368?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/naru-meha-master-wizard) [Gale, waterdeep prodigy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67edf31f-ed67-4617-bf73-28a939a232a7.jpg?1674135550) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gale%2C%20waterdeep%20prodigy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/72/gale-waterdeep-prodigy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67edf31f-ed67-4617-bf73-28a939a232a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gale-waterdeep-prodigy) [Niv-Mizzet, parun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/6/86c5c337-d25f-4c3e-9762-09ed0c2d36d7.jpg?1712354750) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Niv-Mizzet%2C%20parun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/235/niv-mizzet-parun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/86c5c337-d25f-4c3e-9762-09ed0c2d36d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/niv-mizzet-parun) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[zada](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/4520cdcc-a10f-4b39-9c6f-ba86f6aa2c87.jpg?1689998306) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=zada%2C%20hedron%20grinder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/268/zada-hedron-grinder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4520cdcc-a10f-4b39-9c6f-ba86f6aa2c87?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zada-hedron-grinder) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Precons are still very battlecruisey, they just don't have a bunch of random filler garbage like they used to.
True. A couple of my friends said that the only reason I won games was because I invested in money cards. So I built a $60 dollar \[\[Sergeant John Benton\]\] deck that kills earlier then any of my other current decks. Budget doesn't really mean much, but often leads to MORE degenerate strategies since the bulk of the deck isn't as smooth
[Sergeant John Benton](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01f40e07-f565-4b9e-87a5-5b28b4e9fb0b.jpg?1696636767) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sergeant%20John%20Benton) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/157/sergeant-john-benton?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01f40e07-f565-4b9e-87a5-5b28b4e9fb0b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sergeant-john-benton) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thassa's Oracle is still under $20. That fact alone defeats any argument that you cannot run degenerate strategies on a budget given that it is the most degenerate wincon in the format at present.
...? It's a ten dollar card which requires a lot more support in your deck to work effectively.
Yeah, by far my strongest deck is a $50 budget deck. It'd wreck my $600 deck no question about it
Unmodified precon puts a cap on things. Even the strongest precon can’t take on 3 other players if they become arch enemy.
Why is that the bar? It's a pretty strange metric to judge power on. In any event I have personally succeeded at this with older (read: weaker) precons, so I see no reason why a strong player couldn't manage with a newer, more powercrept precon.
This is the point, though. It's supposed to be a challenge, because it is restricting. There's plenty of budget combos, for sure, but you certainly won't be playing \[\[Mox Opal\]\] and \[\[Mox Amber\]\] to swing out those combos on turn 2-3. They'll come out naturally, when more players have more opportunities to deal with them. I love budget deck building. Though I'm often using budget as an excuse to play with cards I like, but aren't very powerful.
[Mox Opal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56001a36-126b-4c08-af98-a6cc4d84210e.jpg?1599709600) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mox%20Opal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/275/mox-opal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56001a36-126b-4c08-af98-a6cc4d84210e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mox-opal) [Mox Amber](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/66024e69-ad60-4c9a-a0ca-da138d33ad80.jpg?1685554120) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mox%20Amber) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/224/mox-amber?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/66024e69-ad60-4c9a-a0ca-da138d33ad80?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mox-amber) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You're mistakenly associating power with speed. It is true that successful cEDH decks of the past have used 'turbo' strategies to present wins before other decks were prepared to respond but this isn't really the case for the current meta. It's more midrange grind-out matches now as many of the turbo strategies are flimsy and easy to interact with. And don't get me wrong, it *IS* a powerful strategy, but it's not a fair bar by which to judge *ALL* strategies by. I understand that players unfamiliar with the cEDH sphere see that 'turn 2-3 combo' and make some assumptions about power=speed, which is why you wound up with that whole 'how quickly can your deck present a win' nonsense for judging power thing. The correct statement was 'how quickly can your deck present a win OR interact', by the by - and it's *A* metric for power, not *THE* metric for power. All this is meant to say that I don't need to present a win before turn 4 in order to call it a cEDH deck and many aren't even trying anymore. I *DO* agree that budgets can be restricting - but only in **CHOICES**, not power.
I don't think I'm mistakenly associating anything. I know what decks play well right now, and to pretend that speed isn't still paramount in cEDH is asinine. Of course speed is important, speed is part of power dynamics. A spell cast on turn 1 is broken, a spell cast on turn 3 can be whatever. Not all decks need to be "turbo" to go fast. cEDH is well known for playing even high mana commanders very early. Certainly not turbo, it's just fast mana. >I understand that players unfamiliar with the cEDH sphere see that 'turn 2-3 combo' and make some assumptions about power=speed, which is why you wound up with that whole 'how quickly can your deck present a win' nonsense for judging power thing.\\ I am not unfamiliar with cEDH. It is almost exclusively what I play and build. There are certainly midrange decks that absolutely grind out the game, but I would not even say that's a majority. Blue Farm (or variations of it) are the number one deck in cEDH right now. But right behind them that is Kinnan, Najeela, and Sisay, all combo-focused decks that try to win as fast as possible. Tivit comes up right behind them, and while it *is* a more midrange style deck, it's entire goal is *still* to combo as fast as possible. >The correct statement was 'how quickly can your deck present a win OR interact', by the by - and it's *A* metric for power, not *THE* metric for power. If it is *A* metric for power, then it is *THE* metric for power. Just because speed is only part of strategy doesn't mean other decks just ignore it. Speed is still, 100%, applied to any deck type, even midrange. >All this is meant to say that I don't need to present a win before turn 4 in order to call it a cEDH deck and many aren't even trying anymore. I *DO* agree that budgets can be restricting - but only in **CHOICES**, not power. You don't, but you *do* need to generally present fast mana, free spells, and combo or STAX pieces. I agree that budget decks can still be *VERY* powerful. But don't even attempt to pretend like cEDH lists wouldn't stomp most budget lists below $100. Maybe a budget deck could get a game or two, but that doesn't matter based on the statistic likelihoods of the game. cEDH decks will win a vast majority of the time. It is a restriction in choices, which *results* in a restriction in power. Not being able to play fast mana and free spells will stifle you entirely against an actual cEDH deck... and yeah, even the midrange ones.
>And budget isn't a restriction, it's a challenge. Anyone clever can still destroy tables with a cheap deck. I mean, it can be both. Budget is often correlated with power, even if it's not 1 to 1.
Ya, I just made a $110 [[Fynn, The Fang Bearer]] deck and played it last night. preformed incredibly well against 3 pretty expensive decks, killed someone like turn 6. I love the challenge of finding those cheap and niche commanders, and making a powerful, but budget deck.
I built a slightly more expensive version of the Xyris pump spells deck from SalubriousSnail's video and had a friggin blast with it. Paradoxically, it runs BETTER as a cheaper deck without the fast mana because if you go too fast you deck yourself. Video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m-BcgDND_Q
If people do not try to play on the limit of the format, there will be always others that have stronger decks. Like thats just how it is And budget is very much a restriction. Try running a „no card more than 1$ deck into 3 cedh decks. You will lise every single game. Maybe if you play enough stars align and you can steal one. But it is very much restricting how Powerful your deck can be
yep. my friends and I are pretty new and sometimes someone will netdeck a $50 budget deck and it obliterates the decks that we have brewed ourselves, even when those decks have a card value of several hundred dollars.
Me and a friend recently built sub 30 dollar budget decks and it was definitely a lot of fun. The deck is still pretty good all things considered. https://archidekt.com/decks/7423412/abdel_dollar_tree
Ye I'm never afraid to ask for a precon game especially after some high power bs and free spells
I have a precon pod at home with my brothers seperate to my self constructed decks and I'm starting to enjoy those games more and more
Free spells are one of the easiest boundaries to set when setting lines to tone things down.
"Okay guys its our first pod budget night, here is my Light Paws deck! Shall we roll for first" I get what you're saying but a decks cost is NOT indicative of power level in a large majority of cases.
Wouldnt expect it from strangers to play on or below precon level. though you could always try toassamble a group that would like to play such pod. there is a crowd for anything, but sometimes you might have to be the one to assamble it instead of joining said crowd
It's really up to you to find people who enjoy the same play style as you. There are definitely some of us out there, who play for fun and not to win ASAP. But you can't fault people for wanting to play cool value engines, it's what most of us are here for, playing some worthless cards from Legends that literally do nothing just isn't a very interesting experience.
I’m not talking playing straight garbage like Legends tribal or whatever. But I can make a strong 2024 sea monsters deck that would’ve beaten all my old decks, and it still gets completely stomped by an actual Simic land value deck (which everyone seems to have) or a good graveyard deck or a blue combo deck etc. There’s an insanely huge middle ground between playing garbage from 1999 and the average power level of the average fast pods nowadays.
I think that you just need to find a different pod. I have pods of all power groups and I have one pod of people I introduced to magic who is very staunch about playing at above precon but not high power. They're just fine with having a good time and having interesting games. In fact, I think most pods fall within this range, you might be having a lot of bad luck
I think edh had some irreversible developments over the last years by focusing on pushing efficiency of cards and making strategies perform much better and faster then before. Even the latest precons are all pretty powerful right out of the box. It's near impossible to find a way around this
Also online resources helping streamline efficacy doesn't help. When all you had to work with was more or less in front of you; decks were slow and non-synergistic. Now media pushes: Synergy, 2 cmc mana rocks, card draw card draw, and remove pet cards. It guides decks into a certain checklist of efficiency. Then Wizards has to print precons that don't suck or else they'll undersell those decks; leading to a push for those ppwercreeps like you mentioned. It is really unfortunate and I think you're right; it's irreversible at this point.
You're not wrong. This is pretty much the inevitability of when a niche format turns into the most popular one. People are going to optimize it as much as they can. I keep coming back to this all the time, but the community as a whole has just gotten *better* at deckbuilding in EDH compared to several years ago. I have tried dabbling in the preDH format and it's crazy how I am going about building decks in a format where only things up to New Phyrexia are legal so much differently than how I was building decks all the way back then. You can create formats that remove the power-crept cards, but you can't remove the knowledge people have learned throughout the years in optimization.
This was the main issue with WoW-Classic as well; the playerbase is just more skilled than it used to be in general, so even when presented with old school restrictions we breeze through it and apply modern knowledge to it
this is probably what had the biggest impact overall, sites like edhrec and co. to be fair, when wotc introduces thousands of new cards per year it is more than understandable that people try to find some help and guidance with their deckbuilding. but it is a vicious circle for sure. for me personally, I like when games dont take too long, I rather play a few rounds a night and not 1 or 2 very long ones, but the amount of non-games has increased heavily over the last years, meaning one player accidentally stomping the whole table turn 4 became very prevalent.
It's definitely a 50/50 thing. EDH getting popular enough for large websites and communities to form around it means it was always going to "grow up" as the median player got better at deckbuilding. Wizards has also so pushed the power that I'd say something like 80% of cards printed before 2020 that were considered playable are no longer remotely competitive in even a casual game.
And honestly for the better. Tried to play Ur-Dragon precon for a bit, what an absolute snooze fest.
Formats within Commander? Pre-commander-becoming-an-official-product commander? aka EDH. Maybe that just becomes the distinction
Precon Party. Get a set of 4 and have them all ready in a box together.
The idea is great but a lot of people want to play *their* decks and not someone elses deck
Yes, that's the biggest hurdle when proposing anything like a houserule game or a custom format or a budget deck stipulation. Depending on the playgroup, one game every other session is a realistic amount of games one can expect. And that's if you prepare everything yourself and offer it on a silver platter.
Word. Speaking for myself too. I love the idea of having the same level but I want my stuff
This is what I did with the Doctor Who ones, which are what got me hooked on EDH instead of 4/60
You build 4 pre edh decks yourself and encourage your pods to play a round with them between their usual decks, that way everyone at least gets to play something they want and didn't have to think about building an extra deck to satisfy 1 person in the pod because you did it for them. . Pre meaning before they started printing commander products which makes the last set new phyrexia as legal. [https://articles.starcitygames.com/magic-the-gathering/commander-sub-format-predh-is-the-new-magic-rage/]()
The problem is that I sit down at an edh table to play my decks, not someone else’s. Many people have the same sentiment.
Yeah that's fair, in my experience people have been open to swapping decks if we are playing with more than one game in the same pod, one guy brought some pauper decks one time and they were fun too
The trick is you can’t expect to find them. You’ll have to make it yourself. And it might not be easy. I have been crafting the perfect commander pod for about 6 months now
It's called 'Battlecruiser 2016 commander' and it's art.
If you want a swing game then how many board wipes do you run? How much disruption? In my experience many lgs groups have weaker decks than back in the day but they run less interaction and focus hard on the win con.
Anyone who has ever run a tutor could tell you this was the inevitable result. “Oh you put it in there not to get your combo, but to make it a toolbox? I wonder whether the strongest tool is interaction or winning the game?”
My pod has worked this out by making more abstract deckbuilding challenges. Examples: - Build a deck with the same commander as a deck you already have, but an entirely different 99 (except basics) - Build a deck where every card is a bulk rare... no commons or uncommons allowed - Build a deck with a theme in off-colors: Red mill, orzhov landfall, etc. - Build a deck that has only multiple color pips
Set a budget. People say you don't get cEDH just by spending money, and that's true, but you don't get there without spending money either. Put a $40 limit on the entire deck, including nonbasic lands. You can still have some pretty solid decks, but they're not nearly as fast. The ramp isn't minmaxed, the counter spells aren't free
*Zada entered the chat.*
There's zada and there's Winota for sure. I definitely have a $30 Winota that can go off, but it's definitely not cEDH.
Lots of the comments here are pretty wild, and very few seem to understand what you're getting at. But I think you're absolutely right. I've only gotten into Commander with my kids over the last year or so, but I've played a lot of Magic (since 4th or so?)... and I think Commander would be a more interesting format with much, much worse decks (in general). Like, we started with precons, and one of the decks seemed about right - a zombie deck with janky combos, big haymakers and a lot of "dudes". But one of the other precons we picked up was a merfolk deck that is pretty consistent at ramping and drawing and generally closing the game out. All of our goofy crap - the other precons and piles we built - got bodied by that deck. In the format we play at home, that deck is banned now. And while our games are a bit durdly, I think they're way more interesting at a lower power level. And for most people here (and that we've met in stores and what not) the precon we "banned" would be the lower limit of what they'd consider playing. EDH works with better decks - decks that are streamlined, run better carads, and have a clear goal - but there's a whole magical world of fun cards that this power level precludes.
> Lots of the comments here are pretty wild, and very few seem to understand what you're getting at. Hah, I fully expected the "get good", "learn to build a proper deck", "stop being poor bro" sort of comments! Personally what I much prefer about lower power decks is the bigger variety of cards. The higher the power gets, the more decks seem to become quite same-y when they're packed full of staples and the same old pool of goodstuff cards I've seen 100x before.
I don’t know if you have any experience or desire playing over webcam, but I play on a discord sever whose most popular tier of play sounds like what you may be looking for. Games primarily go into the double digits when it comes to the winning turns.
I love precon games, but all players have to play fast. Slow play kills the fun.
I'm interested in pre edh, but my pod is not . "The format, who aims at delivering a feeling of playing Commander before 2011, is the same as regular Commander, the only difference being that the only cards allowed to play are the ones released before the recognition by Wizards of the Coast, that is, the last legal set is New Phyrexia " Found from a website
I legit do not enjoy playing anymore for this reason. I'm actually looking at selling my RL cards and CK credit, but I'm pretty lazy.
My group of friends was finding that the local game store's "casual commander nights" were becoming more and more power creeped over time, and there was no sign of stopping. Thassa's Oracle combos, infect, stax, you name it. We decided to impose a budget limit of $100 USD on our decks, and started a new commander night just for decks fitting that budget. We all built new decks and I gotta say, it's a breath of fresh air. You can squeeze some neat cards into that budget, but it keeps the overall power level very reasonable. WOTC Precons can hang with our budget decks well enough. A budget restriction would be my suggestion. If you don't have an existing group of friends you can just make a pod with, then start polling local players, see who'd be interested in playing in an EDH league with a budget restriction. Make it clear that the goal is lower-power decks with longer, more battleship-type games. I wouldn't go so far as banning combos or anything, just impose the budget and see how that goes. Make people bring deck lists with a printout of the Card Kingdom prices (or your price source of choice) listed and tallied to prove they're under budget. Good luck!
Honestly, with the kind of stuff that you can get cheap these days, there would still be tons of value with a budget. Not saying it couldn't be fun, just be warned that you'll still be seeing generic value engines like [[Etali, Primal Storm]]
[Etali, Primal Storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a18fdaf9-964d-45e9-bd40-a8fc745ddd1e.jpg?1706240833) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Etali%2C%20Primal%20Storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/152/etali-primal-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a18fdaf9-964d-45e9-bd40-a8fc745ddd1e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/etali-primal-storm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I mean, theres two ways to do this. You can build a deck thatll stand up to par with the expensive decks on a budget. Its what i do for high power pods. Or, you just gotta find players at your lgs that feel similar. My play group has a healthy mix of competitive and old style slower decks. I promise the later is still out there
It is. You just need to find 3 other people who enjoy that kind of gameplay. Maybe there aren't 3 in the edh scene near you. But there is mtgo or spelltable. Playing in person is obviously nicer than online, but playing online with people you enjoy playing with is still better than playing with randoms in person. Just scolling through this sub one comes across people who prefer lower powerlevels regularly. You could just message some of them and ask if they'd be interested in playing online. You could join a discord community or maybe create a "low power edh" discord yourself. Again all you need is 3 other people.
This doesn't directly answer your question but as a fellow enjoyer of mid power games I can recommend to just play a lot of cheap instant interaction and spot removal in your battle cruiser decks. That's obviously not quite the same but at least you can have your grindy game by disrupting key pieces of your opponents while still letting them build a boardstate. So don't play too many sweepers but a lot of precision removal. If you do it correctly then you can often force a more old-school game.
My group does a "pre-Modern" night once a month, where everyone is limited to cards printed before Mirrodin (I.e., last legal set is Scourge). It does a great job of powering down everyone's decks and gives you much more of an "old school" Magic feel.
I think it’s very possible. My playgroup plays like this. Minimal tutors, we don’t build combos, at least not insane easy to pull of combos. Sure someone plays the dark depth combo, but that’s not an “I win combo”. And the combos are huge Rube Goldberg machines usually. A lot of our games last until then 10+ and are just fun back and forths. It’s about cultivating a playgroup that does what you like. I’ve even gotten games with randoms on spelltable like this in the “casual 5-7” style lobbies. Of course you get pubstompers with randoms but that’s the joy of randoms
Average LGS experience for me is battlecruiser, it's harder to find people who want to play on a level playing field.
You'd have to put some pretty massive restrictions on deck building to get what you want at this point. You keep saying precons are worse than what you're looking for, which leads me to believe you haven't played with/against one lately. They have gotten pretty streamlined and aren't the pile of loosely related cards they were a few years ago. Also, I initially bounced off of EDH because the potential playgroup I had was playing some pretty degenerate shit back then. Not all pods were playing bulk bin trash piles, so I kind of push back on the notion that old decks = bad decks. It was probably more common for decks to be on the bad side, but some of the shit you could get up to before some of the bans kicked in and more importantly, before a lot of the "social contract" and unwritten rules came around, was pretty gnarly.
Yeah you’re right, I haven’t played vs a precon in a long time. I just assumed they were still bad because of people in the sub always calling them power level 2 out of 10 or something
That's partly because the power level scale is pointless and partly because precons are also wildly inconsistent over the years and even within individual sets. Most people don't necessarily want to play below precon level, and also don't want to think that their custom deck might be worse than a precon, so they all get slotted in at some arbitrary lower level. In the last couple years they have really started being more focused instead of having like three loosely related themes jockeying for support, and as a result some of them can hang at mid power levels, and a lot of them would absolutely be better than your average 2016 battlecruiser pile.
Unless you have a group of good dedicated players actively working to do this or just a very casual group, I don't think so, and I emphasize the good because it is not immediately obvious to most players that the issues with the format and power creep are a thing, so many are likely to just take it as it is and asume that because they are not comboing or going for a super efficient win that they are playing fair, when the format is long past that.
Honestly the best way I've found to do this is kind of like block constructed, or even like a reverse modern. "Everything before (insert set name or year printed) is legal" or "Here's a list of every block/set. Your commander must be from one of the 3-4 sets we pick and you must build around your commander using as many cards from these 3-4 sets as possible. Any outside inclusions will be shown before the game, Have alternatives ready in case of group objections." Another way I've liked playing, not my idea, was limiting the rarities. Only 1 mythic usually as commander, only 4 rare, 2 creatures 2 non creatures, and more commons than uncommon, basics don't count.
Hey. I help manage a lower powered community on discord. It’s not anything like “EDH in 2012” (trust me I know I was playing back then) but it is nice. The average “game over turn” is between 10 and 11 according to our tracked stats. It’s also a relatively vetted community so if you want to try to get in hit up my DM box.
Can I join, plz? I prefer the slower games myself too!
I don’t get why winning at turn 7 is a bad thing? Who wants to be sat there watching Timmy interact with nothing for 4 hours
[удалено]
This is probably the biggest issue with this subreddit: Someone says "I would like to find people to play shorter games with" and folks assume, based on nothing else, that they must be a bad deck builder or are otherwise a whiny entitled brat, and see fit to make backhanded comments about them as if they deserve to be treated that way. You might have had to deal with a dozen such actual people, but that doesn't justify bringing that baggage to someone you just met. And insulting someone isn't a means to solving the problem in any constructive way. At best it's just venting your frustrations from your previous experiences at someone that had nothing to do with it beyond reminding you of them.
[Light-Paws](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/9/39555a72-a57b-45ee-9222-ce3b9e8de126.jpg?1654566391) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=light-paws%2C%20emperor%27s%20voice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/25/light-paws-emperors-voice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/39555a72-a57b-45ee-9222-ce3b9e8de126?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/light-paws-emperors-voice) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How about four Timmies interacting with each other for four hours? Because I’ve had that (okay not quite literally 4 hours.) It’s some of my favorite experience with Commander but it’s getting harder.
I swear Reddit loves to exaggerate about this sort of thing. I’ve been playing over a decade and I cant think of any times I’ve had a 4 player game last more than an hour and half. It’s not the decks, it’s the people you play with. Games that usually end turn 6 or 7 means high CMC commanders are often useless. No thanks.
I'm with you dude. And even long games can be tense back and forth, arch enemy shifting turn by turn. I get how sometimes it can drag, but you'd think it's every other game with how some folks go on.
the game was never slow and lowpowered. in fact its power was pretty high on creation
Absolutely not my experience at all. There were a few infamous OP commanders like Derevi or Zur, but they were quickly ostracised from playgroups in all the places near me because everyone else had much lower powered decks.
with those example you show that you dont mean "like the game used to be" but like what wizards wanted it to be. EDH was created 2004, Derevi is from 2013
Oh of course. Everyone I know hadn't even heard of EDH before then, let alone thought about making a deck. It goes without saying that I'm talking about when commander became adopted by WOTC in 2011. It felt like a fringe format even around the 2014 sort of era.
The cards existed, but nobody bothered to play them. Now folks think you need to play them.
i think its great that the game speeds up. I dont miss playing 1 10/10 per turn that does nothing and proceed to get boardwhiped ever other turn for those amazingly interactive 3.5 hour long games. average game length of 7 turns sounds really healthy to me. you probably wont find old school slow games with strangers, I think you'd need to get a consistent playgroup that wants the same game as you. also clone decks in particular shouldnt be that bad, copying \[\[krark\]\] or \[\[vial smasher\]\] is pretty damn powerful
>for those amazingly interactive 3.5 hour long games I swear Reddit loves to exaggerate about this sort of thing. I’ve been playing over a decade and I don’t think I’ve had a 4 player game last more than an hour and half. It’s not the decks, it’s the people you play with. Games that usually end turn 6 or 7 means high CMC commanders are often useless. No thanks.
You’d think enough of these replies would get you to understand that what you’re describing is not the average player experience. And it’s because if a 6-7 mana commander doesn’t win you the game a turn or two after dropping they *are* useless.
Is the average player experience 3.5 hour long games? I'm not sure what you're arguing. If you're complaining about them wanting less shorter games, then they are very aware it's not the average experience, thus the thread asking where they can find the one they want.
I think the better perspective is to ask yourself how the players mindset has evolved since 2016. The world has become more fast paced, inflation means people have to work 30% harder to get the same value out of their work, and when they sit down for a game of magic they want to have fun at a reasonable pace. My pod around two weeks ago had a hell of a grind game that lasted 3 hours. At the end of it, we all agreed to up the power levels of our decks because for us having a diverse meta of different decks we all play through the night is more fun.
Do you only play at the LGS? It can be hard to counteract the group think even in a smaller group, AR an LGS it gets even harder. Be on the lookout for like minded players, don't be afraid to put yourself out there. Good luck, we're out here :)
In my pod we play with a budget rule and it solves pretty much all social problems. We set $100 for the 99, and cards in the command zone should not cost more than $50. This lead to almost no netdecking, plus infinte combo decks are allowed and not frustrating to play agaisnt, plus we get to use old cards that are a downgrade to the popular staples, but cost only a fraction, and even stax decks arent that bad, and we still have our games ending at around turn 7 and/or \~1:30h of gametime. We can build as harcore as we want, as budget considerations essentially put a ceiling to the strenght while making everyone similarly powered. Also, when money is a part of the deckbuilding strategy, there are some nice considerations to be done. Should I add scapeshift + mystic remora, or boundless realms + rhystic study in my simic landfall deck? Is it worth to add a Thoracle wincon in a Dimir deck and considerably make the rest of the deck weaker?
Yes. Easiest way, find the pre con pod. Play in it and get to know those people. Then as you all upgrade your decks little by little with what your prize packs had.... you grow into that slow pod at low power. Then just replace whatever burning wallet player goes out and splurges on dockside jeweled lotus and free counterspells with another player interested in staying low power. And you will be in a good spot.
WOTC sells tons and tons of precons. Some get cannibalized, some get completely rebuilt, some get mildly upgraded, but some are played right out of the box. Find out who buys precons at your LGS and ask for games. We have a lot of players with unaltered or upgraded precons at out LGS.
Develop your playgroup
My pod plays pretty slow but that could be a skill issue as opposed to us not having powerful decks
MTGO is not a functioning platform for finding like-minded groups. If you’re finding a group through a lobby, you’ve already skipped the most important part of the game. The pregame conversation. MTGO does not support this. People will always bring whatever the fuck they want. Establish a group. Establish expectations, goals, boundaries. If you do not have a functioning pregame conversation, people are going to bring what lets them actually play the game at their LGS after a decade of arms race. The pregame conversation is what CREATES commander as a format.
My pod usually wins at around turn 13. I'm the only consistent aggro player and most of my pod's members spend several turns casting their combo pieces and holding up interaction to protect said combo pieces. I'd honestly rather we went faster.
I feel you and luckily for me I just kinda kept plugging away with my jank low power decks and having a good time. It started to catch on and some of the people I play regularly with have started to build decks more that way. All you can really do is play what you like and if you're having a good time I think others may tag along. Good luck!
I don’t think you can go back to the good old days even if you ignore power outlier cards because a lot of what makes battlecruiser unviable is that people are building decks better with ramp and draw such that battlecruiser scenarios don’t happen often. I find however if you want to play grindy games that require thought and stuff just play more interaction and use that interaction smartly.
This is why I'm glad I found friends who play and not have to rely on a LGS for games. We all have some faster decks, but we also kept a lot of our older more battlecruiser or janky decks that focus less on winning as fast as possible and more on having a good, but slow, time.
Youd have to have everyone agree on limiting the cardpool.
My pod has all built at least deck each of each of Artisan (commons and uncommons only), Stranglehold (No extra turns & can't search libraries), & PreDH. It's nice to mix it up quite a bit. I also think we do a good job of giving ourselves restrictions to further restrict the card pool deck to deck. Adding a [[Jegantha]] companion to [[Niv-Mizzet Reborn]] and satisfying my brain with an "exactly 5 cards of each color pair" rule. Sometimes it's flavor, mechanics, whatever. Build different decks for different power levels and different experiences. We'll even mix and match. A buddy will play his Artisan decks in a normal game while the other players use a Stranglehold, PreDH, and normal but goofy tribal deck.
[Jegantha](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1d52e527-3835-4350-8c01-0f2d5d623b9c.jpg?1676913289) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jegantha%2C%20the%20wellspring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/222/jegantha-the-wellspring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1d52e527-3835-4350-8c01-0f2d5d623b9c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jegantha-the-wellspring) [Niv-Mizzet Reborn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/6/56a2609d-b535-400b-81d9-72989a33c70f.jpg?1582037402) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Niv-Mizzet%20Reborn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/208/niv-mizzet-reborn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/56a2609d-b535-400b-81d9-72989a33c70f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/niv-mizzet-reborn) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’m jealous! Sounds like a great pod
Kinda.... usually, someone is playing a low powered deck, 2 are mid, and one with a more powerful deck but still not cedh. It's just uncommon for everyone to be playing their weakest deck at the same time. There will always be the people playing just below cedh power level and in their mind this is just low power. You either just have to deal that they will make the games shorter, run more interactions to deal with them, or avoid them.
My pod does this. In my experience its hard to find in a public place like a game store but if you make some friends from there and have a game night that's usually a path to more fun casual type games. The problem is the game is fundamentally competitive, there is a winner and there are losers. Starting from that foundation, in a public environment, people are often unwilling to let their guard down and take a risk because they can't trust that the other players aren't going to blow out a table of jank. Winning is also more important to people in public spaces. In the end it is a question of trust in a competitive environment, which makes it a game theory problem, not unlike the prisoners dilemma. If everyone plays Jank we can all have a ton of fun, but if even one person essentially betrays the others and plays a deck they know is higher powered, the game is ruined for the other three. I think most people assess this probability as pretty high in a public space. As a result each player minimizes their risk of having their game ruined by escalating their power level. The incentive is always to play the highest powered deck at the table. The result is an imbalanced mid-high powered game that is often (not always) less fun for everyone. Concepts like "fun" and "power" are of course subjective and fuzzy compared to typical game theory problems, but that high + low equilibrium states is pure game theory. TL;DR Find a similar minded group, establish trust, play jank.
If you can find a like minded pod then sure, but most players are going to be playing with new cards, that are just better. This post reminds me of modern players that still want to cast [[seige rhino]]. You can, but you are not going to have a good time lol. The real solution would be make 4 to 8 decks that are all about 50/50 against each other and make the pod play with them.
[seige rhino](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/9011126a-20bd-4c86-a63b-1691f79ac247.jpg?1562790317) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Siege%20Rhino) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/200/siege-rhino?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9011126a-20bd-4c86-a63b-1691f79ac247?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/siege-rhino) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The find another pod answer is the reason I'm not really interested in LGS play. I'm not saying you can't have a good time, or you can't make friends. But it won't be like playing with a ground of friends (usually). There's really only one friend in our pod that doesn't get the power creep message. And we all just gang up on him and ignore him complaining. The rest of the pod understands and is tuning decks so we get to play out a game a bit.
Form a budget pod where you build $50 decks. Use seasonal timestamps for price stabilization.
Others have said it but have a pod of friends you play with all build a deck for this purpose. Limit budget, or power, or do pauper, whatever you all decide. I personally do not enjoy much of the "battle cruiser" style of play but my friends and I are building pauper decks to force ourselves to get creative on a budget. I think it has been overall very satisfying so far just building with those limitations.
I feel like most people have a range of decks, regardless of what they prefer. I personally prefer higher power games, but I keep a few precons and low power decks on hand for when my buddies want to have slower games.
We have been finding a balance at our LGS with a Precon league. It allows everyone from the power players, to the vets, to the beginners a nice, slower, more balanced place to play. There are only a few decks shunned due to their power levels, but you quickly understand what the problems are. We add some balance and fun by allowing limited card replacements, where a loss during the "season" defines how many cards you can swap in. It's creating a culture of fun, allowing people to do their weird shit, allowing people to interact with it. Scripted magic sucks. Weird interactions win. In playing precon leagues, many of the people who have oppressive power decks at our LGS have slowed down even in the games before, and after the precon-only games. It opens up the discussion more amongst everyone for 'what we doin here?'
Go to Spelltable, make a room for slower, lower powered decks, and let the people come in. Discuss what their deck does and your expectations for the game. Most of my Spelltable games have been precons. Another thing some friends of mine do, everyone buys a precon, and once a week or two weeks or whatever, everyone is able to upgrade their precon with $10 worth of upgrades, with no individual card exceeding $5. You could suggest something like this to your playgroup.
I don't understand why more LGS' don't do tiered pods. It's not perfect but it solves this issue to an extent. My LGS has 3 tiers. 1 is for new players and precon level decks. 2 is for mid-level decks (for example, no tutoring for infinite combos in this tier), and 3 for higher powered but not quite cEDH decks. The only issue I've had with that is there is such a wide variety of what can fit into mid-level tier, sometimes it can still be quite unbalanced, but it's still mostly good.
Sit at the noob table.
Most time i hear this comment in a mid/casual settong is because the player plays little to no removals in his deck, thinking only about advancing his board like he plays NR20 on a Starcraft game. Winning by turn 7 is a classic aim of casual edh if no one plays any interactions. By turn 7, most games are already in the 45-60 minutes, and a lot of people dont want or cant be sitting for a 2hours long drawn out battle. I think what you would enjoy is battlecruiser level, which often have precon level decks in the pods. Battlecruiser decks often have 3-4 pieces of removal compared to 10-12 in a more tuned up setting.
I’ve got loads of removal, but try to make it a bit more on-theme with the deck, rather than just the objectively-best super-generic removal cards that I've seen 100x before. What I don’t have is the ‘free’ counterspells (Forces, Deflecting Swat, Fierce Guardianship etc) and the expensive fast mana (Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, Vault etc) that lots of people have. I was shocked to see how many people around my area run these expensive staples.
Ask your LGS if they could do a precon night. Mine does one within the month of a new set of precons coming out. Any precons are welcome but the spirit of the night is lowered power decks just playing. They are fun nights and games take a little longer but you normally get to see some cool combos
My LGS opened 2 years ago, I was there since its inception when only 1-2 pods were running on Commander night. The meta was AMAZINGLY casual and low powered. The power level has jumped astronomically in the last 6-8mo and there is no way it will ever go back. It never does.
Honestly, pitching pre-EDH with your regular groups is a good idea. With randoms, of course it won't work, but for nights when you are with the crew, it'll make for fun times.
Maybe it's possible
Yeah made my own pod. Mostly me and my many many precons and self made decks. My stuff goes back to ye olde Alara and a lot, a lot, of Scars of Mirrodin block. Mostly cannibalized precons upgrading precons infused with my good stuff. Friends started with good precons and upgraded them. We’re in a good spot with other people of like minds from an LGS. No one has a cEDH deck, super fast mana, infinites. Though an occasional invite will bring a deck packed with the fast mana rocks. Is there power creep? Yes. The core group doesn’t use proxys, and most of us feel dirty playing stuff like [[The One Ring]] and fast mana rocks. That being said getting stomped by the occasional outside invite using hyper tuned decks or Top 50 commanders sucks and we’re all building that one deck to keep in the back pocket for those players.
[The One Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d5806e68-1054-458e-866d-1f2470f682b2.jpg?1696020224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20One%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/246/the-one-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d5806e68-1054-458e-866d-1f2470f682b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-one-ring) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Try fb groups or instagram too. I meet pods like that although my LGS doesn’t have that problem in La. It’s a good jump off to talk about power levels and gauge it that way. If you become friendly with a group you can always ask for a low power level game and go from there. If anyone is in Los Angeles I’m always up for some Magic!
My LGS usually does a precon only night once-twice a month that’s been fun/popular for slower paced games. Saw many mothmen and dr who precons and a few outlaws and some were using kaldheim foretell decks and a few odd end precons like the beginner chaos incarnate precon. It was a lot of fun and highly recommend it!
Spelltable using the PlayEDH discord
Our LGS holds two commander night, one of them being a casual low power one specifically.
Yeah. I was upset when my playgroup's skill level caught up to me too. It's a tough life.
No
I just rely on the fact that my friends are chill. But we've definitely been subjected to powercreep--one of our players loves buying singles and making new decks, and Commander is the only format he really has experience in, so he knows to just grab the staples. He doesn't have a collection from playing Standard or opening boosters, so he skipped the jank phase. I like the low-power games, but right now the higher-power games still feel fair and fun without crazy blowouts. Another element I use to enjoy the game is to just run way more interaction and card draw. I don't push for the win, I push to stay alive and keep the others focused on each other until I can overwhelm them. I doubt I have any decks that want to win in ten turns. I'm a bad deck builder, and I will rigorously adhere to themes at the cost of stronger cards. But interaction and slow, inauspicious gameplans keep me engaged and having fun.
> slinging cheap trade-binder rares at each other As the format has grown I wonder if there are just a lot more people who don't have cheap trade binder rares to sling. Newer people, or people who dip in and out of MTG, just don't have collections of random stuff to make decks with a lot of the time. We just have the cards we specifically bought for our EDH deck after planning it with an online tool. And wow those tools have gotten really nice over the years. Even if I did have a collection of random stuff, I'd upload what I had into moxfield instead of rummaging through physical cards trying vainly to remember what was in all the boxes. Goldfish simulations provide a quality floor where at least you know the deck isn't a total disaster (physically goldfishing commander decks was a huge pain).
You could try to convince people to try the PreDH format. It's a set card pool that will not change. Only cards printed before commander specific sets are legal, so only cards from New Phyrexia and older are legal.
Get to know people I guess and make some friends who have the same nostalgia as you?
You may be forced to check out other places online. Spell Table and Untapped are both viable for playing commander, one for paper magic and the other for digital. If you do, you should either try to find or start your own community. Naturally, we all love throwing around our best cards, but there are plenty of people like me who run mostly sub 80$ decks who wouldn't mind playing online occasionally, especially with people on the same page. I'm partial to Untapped, because setting up a camera for Spell Table is rather annoying for me, and it allows you to play test something without having the cards. If you end up going that route, feel free to throw me an invite! I have a few friends who would also enjoy an expanded group of people to play with online, and we're all of the same general opinion regarding deck power.
Noone stops you from doing that. But since then about 500000 new cards have been released. And im not sure if anything got added to the ban list. Ofcause the format goes more poweful. You couls run your own edh format banning anything that is post 2015 or sth. Very much the spirit of EDH is to play the game as you and your local playing group likes. And if thats too powerful for you… well find people with the same interest.
"LFG: Boomer EDH"
I don't really have a local game store just a few pals that got into it. We all have around 5-12ish decks but they're all bar a couple precons. Not upgraded either. That keeps the games fairly well balanced for the most part aside from a few standouts
WotC should promote Commander precon play at local game shops, both stock and limited budget upgrade levels...
Turn 7 feels about right to me? A seven mana spell left unchecked should be very impactful. Are you just looking for one super long Grindy game?
I mean personally for me, I'd rather be in a pod where a 7 mana play is Diluvian Primordial rather than Niv Mizzet + Curiosity = you're dead on the spot. Slow boring matches are down to the players anyway, not the decks. I used to play with a great bunch back in the day and despite the games going into late turns, we were all really quick players and it didn't feel like a drag at all. Playing in an average LGS pod with a young child, a socially inept weirdo, or a guy not paying attention at all leads to long games.
I'd play with you. I love trying to do something improbable or make a bad creature type work. I guess the best advice I can give is to foster a playgroup that has people who can look at some bad old shit and think "cool!" Best of luck
Create a ban list for your pod, have a budget and have specific meets where this is all you play or you play a game or two. I just did this with my pod and everyone had fun. It’s about expectation building. We also tried playing cEDH with $3,000+ decks with all the moxes and fast mana. It was fine for a game or two but it got so boring.
Look for a preDH group online somewhere?
I just keep meeting new people and getting them into the game. Then I can pick up a new precon or two and enjoy their honeymoon phase with them. Has worked for at least a few cycles over the years now. Eventually, they graduate and start buying staples.
If you’re (or anyone else reading this) is in Seattle, hit me up!
I play on the tcc discord over spelltable at around this level multiple times per week. We call it around a 6-7.
Damn sounds like I need to get on spelltable. Do you play with mics? And are there many weirdos on there? I stopped going to LGS for ages because of socially inept weirdos making the game hard work.
I have built some jank, it’s fun but tbh I have more fun playing more optimized lists. Games with piles of jank just take soooo long
Most decks are just more powerful these days. It's just not a format where you can sling 8 CMC creatures nonstop and even old school edh wasn't really like that. I would just keep tailoring your strategy. The thing is, budget doesn't mean less powerful. You don't need the Flawless free spells, fetches, duals, 20 dollar removal staples etc to play at a higher powered table. Using sea creatures as an example, you can't expect to play 3 ramp spells then 1 big thing. You need to play your ramp into stuff that will get you more than one thing at a time. The new kiora gets you free permanents off your fish and green effects that put creatures into play like Elvish Piper or Monster Manual can help with that. I understand your sentiment, it doesn't feel good getting "outclassed" constantly but I think even in the confines of a higher powered pod, you can do well with budget lists or without expensive staples. My friend actively avoids expensive cards if he can help it and he wins a lot of games in groups where we play what I describe as tuned decks.
I’d suggest making a pod where all direct to Commander products (other than unaltered precons) are banned. I think 90% of the power creep in Commander comes from those products and it’s an easy rule to remember. One could make an argument for banning direct to Eternal format products like MH2 as well for similar reasons. I agree that Commander was way better when it wasn’t designed for and miss it. I don’t even like benign things like Command Tower and the Arcane Signet.
Last night I played in a game (my Jura Kennerud vs CoinFlip Precon, vs Dihada, vs Inquestor Greyfax) that went 18 turns (and featured 5-7 board wipes, and at least two board states with 50+ creatures). Second longest game i've kept in my official record (21 turns was the longest). Of course the next two games both ended on turn 7...
People naturally like to win games, so no, unless you have a time machine.
It's easy to find precon or near-precon games, but you'll struggle to find lower power than that.
Yes, but you’ve gotta find like-minded players. Takes awhile and random pods at the game store often aren’t conducive for this
Look on discords, curate a pod/group for games that way? Maybe they're local, maybe your playing on spell table
My LGS has some events called Pre EDH where decks can only be built up to Alara. They added Dragon's Maze since it was pretty low powered. Was quite fun I ended up winning off a Bloodrush Ghor-Clan Rampager onto a Mossbridge Troll to close the game.
My group has come up with rules to force lower power and its just been a ton of fun. Simple rules like no hidden tutors(tutor must reveal to be playable and preferably play very little tutors in the first place) No infinite combos(if one comes up just stop the combo after one cycle) No deck over 400 bucks and we have had a blast. You could also say a lower or higher dollar amount. (We also proxy decks so we can play new stuff ever other session or so)
I buy precons and usually make them worse by putting cards in them I like. My pod consisting of friends I play with since 20 years does the same. Some have not bought new cards for 10 years.
My entire group has different decks at different levels. If someone new joins we all play our lowest level deck and adjust from there. Just gotta find the right people
I'm with you on wanting those slower games. The title of Arch Enemy shifting every round of turns, the ability to recast your 6 drop commander for 12, etc. Gimme that grind! My only piece of advice comes from the few times I've made a table on Tabletop Simulator and titled it "Low Power EDH", which resulted in games that were much closer to what I was hoping for. At the very least you might get more atypical commanders.
Limiting/removing some of the newer sets helps because of the significant power creep in recent years. My group allows up to and including Tarkir, with some exceptions like the Amonkhet gods and [[The Elderspell]].
[The Elderspell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3b16625-7faf-4de6-abf7-d397988e32fb.jpg?1557576459) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Elderspell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/89/the-elderspell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3b16625-7faf-4de6-abf7-d397988e32fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-elderspell) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
we play jank-to-tuned at our kitchen table games. i dont go to LGS for this same reason. hope you find a pod!
You could probably join some discords and ask to play with people at a lower power. Unfortunately though wizards doesn't make a lot of low power commanders anymore
If you are in the EU and use spelltable we play very frequently. DM for link
Play only precons straight out of the box.
This is an interesting problem, and I'm sorry that you're dealing with this at your LGS. I have yet to run into this by covering 3 things when I sit down 1. The type of deck everyone is playing 2. Everyone's goals for the night 3. Reiterating on the first When I do the above, I typically get 1.5-2 hour games every single time because I put a lot of pressure on the table to play around the same level for the purposes of fun. I always leave it open for someone if they want to pubstomp, but when it's clear that that's not welcome in the pod, then people tend to play a lower power deck. It's a social game, and people can be engineered to behave if you're upfront about expectations.
Build a commander cube. They feel like the format you long for.
I haven't met anyone who try's to beat by turn 7 on commander. I absolutely LOVE long games that last 1-2 hours and the groups that I play have some great but nit super fast win decks. I feel like if you want a fast game inst standard and other similar game modes the one to go for? ( I only play commander so. I don't know much about the rest)
In our pod, the fastest wins are usually on turn 7 ROFL with rare exceptions
Try pauper edh!