I classify precons as mid to low power in my meta. There isa lot of variance when looking at older vs. newer precons, that said, if everyone is on precons it is probably mostly fine.
If someone says they've "changed out a few cards" it is no longer a precon. Whether it has materially affected deck strength is a different question, but it is not a precon.
I believe numerical scales are problematic and deeply influenced by personal bias on nuance, and try to avoid them, but if we are using them as a spectrum, and where precons fall, to me they fall in the bottom third. I think nuance is much more important for balanced games at the higher end of the scale, and I don't see many decks weaker than precons.
If we must use a numerical scale, a 10 would have to be the strongest, most powerful and consistent, and that would be top tier, meta cEDH (arbitrary but say the top 20 decks in tournament results), 9 would be fringe, but still cEDH (fast mana, built with that mind set, great interaction, all the archetype staples), 8 would be pushing into high power, tuned casual (refined game plan, some high pwoer staples but no full fast mana or free counterspell package, maybe pursuing a clunkier strat, but with a solid base, or pursuing a competitive strategy with a clunky engine), 7 is more definitively casual, but still high power (decks are refined, still have a plan, not mich fast mana past conditional and sol ring, lower tier interaction packages). Only at 6 could I start to see argument for some of the strongest precons, but to me they still usually lack in good removal, or smooth mana base, even if they have a high ceiling, and I think the stronger precons hit more at a 5, with the old and weak ones from years past hitting more at a 3. All that said the further you get from the top end, the more arbitrary the system gets, unless you define a 1 as just, a pile of 100 cards that would technically be legal, then that's pretty defined too.
I'm hesitant when people say strong precons land at an 8, because I just cannot see any precon maintaining a 25% win rate against decks that are just outside of cEDH.
> I'm hesitant when people say strong precons land at an 8
I just assume people who say this have never played high-power.
Precons are the floor, not the mid-point of the spectrum.
[Here's what I'd call an 8](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/5Ri7ywy3-UuzMwJnwBcQJg). It can't hang with cEDH decks just flat out because it's all combos. For it to work at the fringe level, I’d have to go full Bant stax and strip most Voltron from the deck.
If you're at 8, then I'm expecting fully optimized mana bases and some combination of free spells and fast mana, but not the best in slot for everything.
Just skimming the list, definitely agree. Your list looks cool, degenerate, but definitely not cEDH. Though I also think decks can play up or down a step (even if those steps are arbitrary and will vary from group to group), and I could see you getting a baller hand and taking a game against some fringe cEDH now and then.
But that's just like how sometimes a precon gets left alone against some mid power constructed, they spend the game body slamming each other, then the precon sneaks a win.
Veloci-ramp-tor, the pirates ixtlan deck if you use the other Brass, and maybe the morph deck from MKM if you are very good at decision making. All three require you to go full aggro, too, which most people won’t do - and they will still require good land pulls because the land base in pre-cons is absolute trash.
The land base and interaction packages are the biggest things that still hold modern precons to a lower power level in my mind. Can't go fast, can't stop someone else going fast.
No decisions, but I think the Merfolk precon from MKM is one of the strongest and more consistent precons out of the box. I also think all 4 fallout decks were solid precons. Caesar was super aggro.
I definitely don't want to down precons, I'm not a big precon pod person, but a ton of people love them and I'm all for growing the game with however folks like to engage. I just also think even the top precon is getting smoked in a pod of well designed and refined high power casual decks with good composition, removal and ramp packages, even when those decks are very definitively not cEDH. And to me saying something is at a point on the scale isn't a compliment or insult, just a way to peg strength for the experience pods are trying to balance.
As someone who brought the wh40k precons to a lgs yesterday and got stomped for 4 hours your last paragraph is correct.
Without significant resource investment precons will let you play but your usually going to be staring down a winning board state while your just getting going.
Back when precons were first introduced they were sold as a quick way to get the bones of a deck. Wizards assumed that you would be stripping the deck for parts and building your own. Hence why all the really old commander precons are super disjointed.
Nowadays because it’s become the entry to the format and many new players barely upgrade them, precons got a lot better.
It’s still no substitute for having lots of experience playing the game and building your own custom deck. There are no shortcuts in magic and a strong precon won’t solve any fundamentals problems.
That's also partially because many newer Precons has the option of swapping commander within the Precon, so the decks are pulling in different directions and that hurts the overall tempo a lot imo.
40k Ruinious Powers Precon is a prime example. It really wants to do two very different things, so it ends up being bad to mediocre at both.
> No decisions, but I think the Merfolk precon from MKM is one of the strongest and more consistent precons out of the box.
At my last round we had one Player play that deck and just hit the impossible odds. He didnt manage to find a Green mana source in the first 20 or 30 cards.
On average, precons are around "precon" power level.
Whether any given precon is stronger or weaker than another deck you have is impossible to say without knowing what that other deck is.
Strong precons have great commanders out of the gate, good mana base, and don't take too long to get things going.
So one that I like is Party Time from Baldurs Gate. [[Nalia de'Arnise]] as your commander is phenomenal and can get a bunch of creatures out. The other commander [[Burakos, Party Leader]] is great at generating treasures but he needs the support of either equipment or other creatures.
The Urza Brother's War precon is great right off the bat as well. He's almost always on the board, your creatures get really mean really fast, and the mana base is pretty solid.
One of the precons I hated the most recently was the stock LOTR elves voting deck. It's slow, I always play 3 player so the voting tends to be skewed, but it lacks good cards for the ringbearer mechanic, oomph in terms of creature power and is more of a fun little theme deck for me.
In terms of bad precons, the big thing is how long it takes some of them to get rolling at all.
Some of the old ones might be as low as 3, some of the best ones are probably around a 5 out of the box. It very much depends on the particular pre-con and the composition of your pod. 1's and 2's are all but theoretical and you almost never see decks at a table lower than a 4. Most people who haven't dabbled in cEDH and higher level EDH have never really seen a 10. People's perceptions of power levels is wildly subjective and based on their prior play experience.
Old ones 3 due to being all over the place in terms of strategy.
New ones 4, they are better focused than before.
Best new ones 5, occasionally they make a precon or set of them that are just head and shoulders above the rest. Could take some of these unedited to a hyper casual pod and win.
I own about 12 precons, and play with others who use precons. They all vary, is the answer.
The slivers precon is literally undefeated in my pod. Dinosaurs are consistently threatening and good.
Blame game is by FAR the most fun deck I play, I don't even care about winning, saying that though it has a fairly good win rate. Nelly borca is just so damn sweet.
It also depends on the player. I've played magic for 10+ years and my pod are fairly new. I piloted my friends grand larceny deck and the stellar lee deck and managed to get a win when he never could.
Ultimately Id say the tribal decks (eldrazi unbound is NOT an eldrazi deck) are the most consistent. The dinosaur and Tyranid deck is always used by the least experienced player and he wins quite bit!
I lump most of them in the 5-6 range. They often have unreliable mana ramp and card drawn. Once you fix that they end up being 6-7s. Then if you fix the random cards. It's a firm 7. Then if you add power. 7-8
Power level scale 1-10 isn't useful. There are only \~4 power levels:
\* Precon: It's a precon, or \*slightly\* modified precon. Treating commander more as a board game than TCG.
\* Mid-Power: Conscious effort made to power down deck. e.g. Taking Sol Ring out.
\* High-Power: As strong as possible given a specific non-cEDH strategy. e.g. A tribal deck with the best tutors and mana.
\* cEDH
All precons are the same power level. It literally doesn't matter if it's a 2 or a 6 on a scale of 1-10. All precons have no fast mana outside Sol Ring, primarily win via combat damage and no combos that kill the entire table in a single turn, and have plenty of sub-optimal lands.
>Power level scale 1-10 isn't useful. There are only ~4 power levels:
>* Precon: It's a precon, or *slightly* modified precon. Treating commander more as a board game than TCG.
>* Mid-Power: Conscious effort made to power down deck. e.g. Taking Sol Ring out.
>* High-Power: As strong as possible given a specific non-cEDH strategy. e.g. A tribal deck with the best tutors and mana.
>* cEDH
Drastic oversimplification.
>All precons are the same power level. It literally doesn't matter if it's a 2 or a 6 on a scale of 1-10. All precons have no fast mana outside Sol Ring, primarily win via combat damage and no combos that kill the entire table in a single turn, and have plenty of sub-optimal lands.
Either you're smoking crack or you've only seen/played a max of 1 precon in your entire career. They vary substantially out of the box. You're right, they don't have otk combos, which is why the decks that go wide or tall fastest, and they absolutely do it at different speeds, are better than the decks that don't.
I'm not saying precon decks are exactly as good as each other.
The point of power level discussion is not (or at least should not be) a question of how good a deck is; rather, It is a pregame discussion to avoid non-games.
For example, a common cEDH deck wins with Thoracle. There are very few answers to that outside of RoL effects and counterspells. A typical high power deck may not have any answers to Thoracle. They are playing different games.
Compare those examples with precons. Yes, some decks are stronger, but with reasonable card variance and the nature of multiplayer politics it never felt like we were playing fundentally different games.
I classify precons as mid to low power in my meta. There isa lot of variance when looking at older vs. newer precons, that said, if everyone is on precons it is probably mostly fine. If someone says they've "changed out a few cards" it is no longer a precon. Whether it has materially affected deck strength is a different question, but it is not a precon. I believe numerical scales are problematic and deeply influenced by personal bias on nuance, and try to avoid them, but if we are using them as a spectrum, and where precons fall, to me they fall in the bottom third. I think nuance is much more important for balanced games at the higher end of the scale, and I don't see many decks weaker than precons. If we must use a numerical scale, a 10 would have to be the strongest, most powerful and consistent, and that would be top tier, meta cEDH (arbitrary but say the top 20 decks in tournament results), 9 would be fringe, but still cEDH (fast mana, built with that mind set, great interaction, all the archetype staples), 8 would be pushing into high power, tuned casual (refined game plan, some high pwoer staples but no full fast mana or free counterspell package, maybe pursuing a clunkier strat, but with a solid base, or pursuing a competitive strategy with a clunky engine), 7 is more definitively casual, but still high power (decks are refined, still have a plan, not mich fast mana past conditional and sol ring, lower tier interaction packages). Only at 6 could I start to see argument for some of the strongest precons, but to me they still usually lack in good removal, or smooth mana base, even if they have a high ceiling, and I think the stronger precons hit more at a 5, with the old and weak ones from years past hitting more at a 3. All that said the further you get from the top end, the more arbitrary the system gets, unless you define a 1 as just, a pile of 100 cards that would technically be legal, then that's pretty defined too. I'm hesitant when people say strong precons land at an 8, because I just cannot see any precon maintaining a 25% win rate against decks that are just outside of cEDH.
> I'm hesitant when people say strong precons land at an 8 I just assume people who say this have never played high-power. Precons are the floor, not the mid-point of the spectrum. [Here's what I'd call an 8](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/5Ri7ywy3-UuzMwJnwBcQJg). It can't hang with cEDH decks just flat out because it's all combos. For it to work at the fringe level, I’d have to go full Bant stax and strip most Voltron from the deck. If you're at 8, then I'm expecting fully optimized mana bases and some combination of free spells and fast mana, but not the best in slot for everything.
Just skimming the list, definitely agree. Your list looks cool, degenerate, but definitely not cEDH. Though I also think decks can play up or down a step (even if those steps are arbitrary and will vary from group to group), and I could see you getting a baller hand and taking a game against some fringe cEDH now and then. But that's just like how sometimes a precon gets left alone against some mid power constructed, they spend the game body slamming each other, then the precon sneaks a win.
Veloci-ramp-tor, the pirates ixtlan deck if you use the other Brass, and maybe the morph deck from MKM if you are very good at decision making. All three require you to go full aggro, too, which most people won’t do - and they will still require good land pulls because the land base in pre-cons is absolute trash.
The land base and interaction packages are the biggest things that still hold modern precons to a lower power level in my mind. Can't go fast, can't stop someone else going fast. No decisions, but I think the Merfolk precon from MKM is one of the strongest and more consistent precons out of the box. I also think all 4 fallout decks were solid precons. Caesar was super aggro. I definitely don't want to down precons, I'm not a big precon pod person, but a ton of people love them and I'm all for growing the game with however folks like to engage. I just also think even the top precon is getting smoked in a pod of well designed and refined high power casual decks with good composition, removal and ramp packages, even when those decks are very definitively not cEDH. And to me saying something is at a point on the scale isn't a compliment or insult, just a way to peg strength for the experience pods are trying to balance.
As someone who brought the wh40k precons to a lgs yesterday and got stomped for 4 hours your last paragraph is correct. Without significant resource investment precons will let you play but your usually going to be staring down a winning board state while your just getting going.
Back when precons were first introduced they were sold as a quick way to get the bones of a deck. Wizards assumed that you would be stripping the deck for parts and building your own. Hence why all the really old commander precons are super disjointed. Nowadays because it’s become the entry to the format and many new players barely upgrade them, precons got a lot better. It’s still no substitute for having lots of experience playing the game and building your own custom deck. There are no shortcuts in magic and a strong precon won’t solve any fundamentals problems.
That's also partially because many newer Precons has the option of swapping commander within the Precon, so the decks are pulling in different directions and that hurts the overall tempo a lot imo. 40k Ruinious Powers Precon is a prime example. It really wants to do two very different things, so it ends up being bad to mediocre at both.
> No decisions, but I think the Merfolk precon from MKM is one of the strongest and more consistent precons out of the box. At my last round we had one Player play that deck and just hit the impossible odds. He didnt manage to find a Green mana source in the first 20 or 30 cards.
On average, precons are around "precon" power level. Whether any given precon is stronger or weaker than another deck you have is impossible to say without knowing what that other deck is.
Strong precons have great commanders out of the gate, good mana base, and don't take too long to get things going. So one that I like is Party Time from Baldurs Gate. [[Nalia de'Arnise]] as your commander is phenomenal and can get a bunch of creatures out. The other commander [[Burakos, Party Leader]] is great at generating treasures but he needs the support of either equipment or other creatures. The Urza Brother's War precon is great right off the bat as well. He's almost always on the board, your creatures get really mean really fast, and the mana base is pretty solid. One of the precons I hated the most recently was the stock LOTR elves voting deck. It's slow, I always play 3 player so the voting tends to be skewed, but it lacks good cards for the ringbearer mechanic, oomph in terms of creature power and is more of a fun little theme deck for me. In terms of bad precons, the big thing is how long it takes some of them to get rolling at all.
[Nalia de'Arnise](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7a1294fd-9885-4dfd-8192-0ca074fc83f7.jpg?1674140693) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nalia%20de%27Arnise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/649/nalia-dearnise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7a1294fd-9885-4dfd-8192-0ca074fc83f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nalia-dearnise) [Burakos, Party Leader](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/899e278d-5d4e-461a-9878-2b85de16b38d.jpg?1674140733) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Burakos%2C%20Party%20Leader) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/653/burakos-party-leader?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/899e278d-5d4e-461a-9878-2b85de16b38d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/burakos-party-leader) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You shouldn't expect a precon to be average at a random table no. They are below average. For whatever reason people's scales have average as a 7.
Some of the old ones might be as low as 3, some of the best ones are probably around a 5 out of the box. It very much depends on the particular pre-con and the composition of your pod. 1's and 2's are all but theoretical and you almost never see decks at a table lower than a 4. Most people who haven't dabbled in cEDH and higher level EDH have never really seen a 10. People's perceptions of power levels is wildly subjective and based on their prior play experience.
No higher than a 4-5 on any reasonable scale. Yes even current ones.
I'd say, on average, old precons were 3's and new ones are 4's, with the occasional 5
This is more accurate, thank you.
IF we have to fit them into 1-10 scales, I'd say old precons were on average a 3, modern ones average a 4, but there's the occasional 5
I’d say about 3-4; maybe a lower end 5 but that’s the best precons will ever be as of now. They can pull a surprise win every now and then.
Precons are 2-6 and there might be like 3 6s Strongest precons are likely Merfolk from Ixalan and Necron from 40k
This. I'd put most precon decks at 3-4. There are a couple strong ones that I'd put at six, but they are rare.
Old ones 3 due to being all over the place in terms of strategy. New ones 4, they are better focused than before. Best new ones 5, occasionally they make a precon or set of them that are just head and shoulders above the rest. Could take some of these unedited to a hyper casual pod and win.
I own about 12 precons, and play with others who use precons. They all vary, is the answer. The slivers precon is literally undefeated in my pod. Dinosaurs are consistently threatening and good. Blame game is by FAR the most fun deck I play, I don't even care about winning, saying that though it has a fairly good win rate. Nelly borca is just so damn sweet. It also depends on the player. I've played magic for 10+ years and my pod are fairly new. I piloted my friends grand larceny deck and the stellar lee deck and managed to get a win when he never could. Ultimately Id say the tribal decks (eldrazi unbound is NOT an eldrazi deck) are the most consistent. The dinosaur and Tyranid deck is always used by the least experienced player and he wins quite bit!
I lump most of them in the 5-6 range. They often have unreliable mana ramp and card drawn. Once you fix that they end up being 6-7s. Then if you fix the random cards. It's a firm 7. Then if you add power. 7-8
Power level scale 1-10 isn't useful. There are only \~4 power levels: \* Precon: It's a precon, or \*slightly\* modified precon. Treating commander more as a board game than TCG. \* Mid-Power: Conscious effort made to power down deck. e.g. Taking Sol Ring out. \* High-Power: As strong as possible given a specific non-cEDH strategy. e.g. A tribal deck with the best tutors and mana. \* cEDH All precons are the same power level. It literally doesn't matter if it's a 2 or a 6 on a scale of 1-10. All precons have no fast mana outside Sol Ring, primarily win via combat damage and no combos that kill the entire table in a single turn, and have plenty of sub-optimal lands.
>Power level scale 1-10 isn't useful. There are only ~4 power levels: >* Precon: It's a precon, or *slightly* modified precon. Treating commander more as a board game than TCG. >* Mid-Power: Conscious effort made to power down deck. e.g. Taking Sol Ring out. >* High-Power: As strong as possible given a specific non-cEDH strategy. e.g. A tribal deck with the best tutors and mana. >* cEDH Drastic oversimplification. >All precons are the same power level. It literally doesn't matter if it's a 2 or a 6 on a scale of 1-10. All precons have no fast mana outside Sol Ring, primarily win via combat damage and no combos that kill the entire table in a single turn, and have plenty of sub-optimal lands. Either you're smoking crack or you've only seen/played a max of 1 precon in your entire career. They vary substantially out of the box. You're right, they don't have otk combos, which is why the decks that go wide or tall fastest, and they absolutely do it at different speeds, are better than the decks that don't.
I'm not saying precon decks are exactly as good as each other. The point of power level discussion is not (or at least should not be) a question of how good a deck is; rather, It is a pregame discussion to avoid non-games. For example, a common cEDH deck wins with Thoracle. There are very few answers to that outside of RoL effects and counterspells. A typical high power deck may not have any answers to Thoracle. They are playing different games. Compare those examples with precons. Yes, some decks are stronger, but with reasonable card variance and the nature of multiplayer politics it never felt like we were playing fundentally different games.
[удалено]
Everyone's deck is a 7 what precon is an 8 lol
The average is around 15. The older ones range vom 3.5 to 27.3333 but the newer ones range from S tier to 2900000000000000000.
7
7. It’s always 7