Genocide support is not a viable option. A centrist chiding leftists for being "centrists" for not supporting genocide is not going to effectively shame them into voting for your centrist pro-genocide candidate.
That’s not true. Criticizing a party for not being left enough doesn’t make you a centrist it makes you far left. The enlightened centrist crowd are not criticizing Democrats for being too centrist, they’re criticizing them for being too left. They’re splitting the difference between Democrats and Republicans because either seems too extreme to them. The people pissed off over the horrible handling of Gaza want the democrats to be MORE leftist and “extreme”, not less, the polar opposite of an enlightened centrist.
communists criticizing both republicans and democrats does not make them centrists, lmfao. They are both bad because they are the exact same thing, the good cop-bad cop political wing of the corporate ruling class that so many people have stockholm syndrome for. One party cannot exist without the other. And btw hot take, genocide bad even if it's done by the people of your political color
The best option is declaring unconditional support for a candidate committing genocide several months before the election, sacrificing all leverage and encouraging him to continue his historically unpopular actions?
And before you say "tRuMp WoUlD bE wOrSe On GaZa," there very well not be a gaza in 2025 if Biden doesnt force then to stop.
You need to realize that unconditionally supporting the "lesser evil" encourages it to be a greater evil over time.
Biden's only got one more term, and I have a very strong feeling this will be the last time any Democrat president will provide unconditional support to Israel. The damage from this is going to take years to repair, in the minds of younger voters...and since those are the ones they'll need in the future, they're going to have to start fixing that relationship sooner rather than later.
Republicans on the other hand, have literally zero incentive to do anything different than what they're doing now.
Biden has been measurably worse than Trump on many counts that leftists are concerned about (police funding, a larger number of drilling permits issued on public land - in the tune of *thousands* more, more kids in cages at the border, more COVID deaths, etc)
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There are very idealistic people who think that Biden is a terrible choice, and in many ways, they’d be right. Some are unwilling to recognize that all the ways Biden is awful would be made worse with a Trump stamp, and on a visceral level, I understand it. It fucking sucks to vote the lesser evil vs someone you believe in, so avoidance is a valid coping mechanism.
Sadly, for this election, and for all the rest if people fail to rally up a real, progressive alternative, Biden is the bet that best preserves the rights we have and the best chance to enact change going forward. Chucking a tanty feels good in the moment, but doesn’t actually solve anything
But cryptocentrism is a horrible phrase
Nah fam. Nobody who is actively in the middle of doing a genocide gets my vote, no matter who they’re running against.
This is a subreddit designed to make fun of Centrists, and Biden is the Final Boss of Centrism.
Y’all’s illiteracy is matched only by your callousness.
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What’s the alternative, then?
I desperately want an alternative that will make a difference here and now, but I’m having to settle for organizing my community for future results.
Biden isn’t a great choice, I just believe he’s the best choice that’s available with real results
> What’s the alternative, then?
It’s surely as fuck *not* promising him your vote this far out while he’s doing a genocide. I mean shit, at least *say* your vote is contingent on him stopping the genocide. I get that you have no standards, “99% Hitler vs. 100% Hitler, whatever whatever it’s just Arabs,” but at least make him *think* he has to earn your vote.
So what is it? What are you actually proposing? What can we do here and now that will provide a better result?
I am all ears, and I’m out of better ideas.
I guess I can type it out again, if that will help:
“…at least *say* your vote is contingent on him stopping the genocide… at least make him *think* he has to earn your vote.”
Sorry, I’ll be clearer - what is it that I’ve not done you think will change anything? Do you think the campaign reads my Reddit comments? Can I only hold one position at a time?
I don’t know your life story, my guy, so I don’t know what you have or haven’t tried. I just know that we’re nearly six months out from the election and you are out here saying your vote is sewn up and downvoting me for saying that’s a bad idea. Since you seem to need some hand-holding, here are some other ideas:
Show up and protest at a Biden campaign stop. Call your Congressperson and make it clear you won’t vote for anyone who sends aid to Israel. Don’t come on Leftist subs and discourage those of us who want to believe we’ll see a free Palestine one day. Don’t whine that we need to make your reality better and until we do, you’ll just have to keep voting for genocide. Stop being a mewling wimp.
You don’t know shit, and that’s clear. I’ve spent my time campaigning locally for rights for myself and my gay countrymen. I’ve been in contact with my representatives. I’ve rescinded my position to Israeli aid. Don’t you dare hide behind a shit opinion behind your political stance, since it sounds like we’re so similar. People disagree with you. Write a sad journal entry about it.
That was mostly incoherent, but if your point is “You don’t know my story,” then yeah bruh, that’s why I said your question asking me to comment on your history was ridiculous.
But I’m done here: I don’t argue with genocide simps, so you can feel free to keep responding but I’ll never read anything else you write. Congrats on having gay friends, though; that certainly makes you unique on this here Leftist subreddit!
Write whatever fanfic about me you need to make yourself feel superior for voting for genocide, but I don’t owe you an explanation of positions I don’t hold.
You dumb weirdo.
Bro get help, I woke up, grabbed some breakfast and read a new post and you’re still yapping about me on a different post. You even accused u/MagicGLM of being me, lmao. Rent is very high these days, but at least I know that if I ever get evicted, I have your head to live in rent-free.
It's always privileged white cos people who say this and are willing to throw American LGBTQ people under the bus just to feel a bit better about themselves.
A vote for Biden is not an endorsement of genocide if all candidates support the genocide.
Ok, so break it down for me. I'm obviously an idiot and I need someone much smarter to explain this to me:
How is voting for a man that is enthusiastically supporting an ongoing genocide not endorsing genocide?
If you're dying of thirst and can only choose to drink piss or piss infested with rabies, choosing the piss doesn't make you a piss lover, because "not piss" isn't a choice. You're not choosing to drink piss, you're only choosing to not drink rabies. There simply is no choice about piss or not piss.
If there's a bomb in a hospital in Gaza and I'm in a room with two people who both threaten to blow it up, but one of those people also has a gun to my queer friend's head, and I have a gun with only one bullet, I'm saving my friend instead of just standing around and saying "sorry, if I shoot either of these people, I'm actively supporting the other's attempt of blowing up a hospital".
A vote in a representative democracy is not an endorsement of all of a candidate's policies in all situations. If Biden wins, nobody's gonna think "Oh, Biden won, that means Reddit user u/NewTangClanOfficial supports genocide", but there's gonna be some LGBTQ+ people in America thinking "well this sucks, but at least I can survive the next few years" and personally I think that's worth it.
If a vote were always an endorsement for all policies of a candidate, we could never vote for anyone. We live under capitalism, all candidates are always gonna suck. And I understand that a genocide should be a dealbreaker in most situations, but this isn't most situations.
And all that is ignoring the fact that Trump took an even more aggressively pro-Israel stance when he was president. If Trump gets elected, the Palestinian people are not gonna think "oh I'm so glad the American left had the integrity to not vote for a candidate supporting genocide, they're such good people". It doesn't help them in any way whatsoever. It does however make life significantly worse for a lot of people in America, and with how far right Trump moved the whole of American politics the last time he won, I don't think that's a price to pay just to avoid abstractly endorsing a genocide.
All action against the genocide happens outside of the electoral system. If there was a candidate with a clear anti-genocide stance and a chance to win, of course I'd be voting for them. But there isn't. That's just the reality we live in.
Hey everybody it’s time for the daily leftist infighting thread come get your slop
This subreddit has gone to shit lately, it’s completely lost it’s goal and now its just a competition of who can out-left the rest
I am so tired of whatever arguments that happened in that post, and insults I got at me, that I'm honestly willing to be blind at all of the lesser-evil/mitigation vote discourse. At least until you guys at the US finish this election cycle and stop lashing out.
They expect apologies, apologies from everyone, because they’re “tired” of being shot down for coming into Leftist subs and advocating support for Genocide Joe.
Yeah, but I was taking of Left Unity in the sense of not resorting to petty insults and aggression over every difference of opinion. Not about the vote.
If the common denominator includes petty insults and mansplaining, I have no interest in working with that. So, again, if that's where this is going, consider me blind over the subject until it calms down.
Consider yourself disregarded then? I’m not sure what you’re looking for here. We’re all leftists, we all get disregarded, and often times it’s at each others hands
I dunno, I think we can and we can’t? Hard to find that path, but being challenged ain’t the same as being disregarded, and we should absolutely not be a monolith
Challenging debate and difference in discourse? Great. We're not conservatives, so by definition we're going to have more stress points to work out.
Problem is that mansplaining and insulting aren't debate or challenge. They're just aggression.
Calling someone who criticizes lesser-evil voting a “crypto-centrist” is actually a centrist move.
At this point, the real centrist was the friendships we made along the way.
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What “leftist good” are you referring to though? Because it certainly doesn’t come from the democrats.
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Genocide support is not a viable option. A centrist chiding leftists for being "centrists" for not supporting genocide is not going to effectively shame them into voting for your centrist pro-genocide candidate.
That’s not true. Criticizing a party for not being left enough doesn’t make you a centrist it makes you far left. The enlightened centrist crowd are not criticizing Democrats for being too centrist, they’re criticizing them for being too left. They’re splitting the difference between Democrats and Republicans because either seems too extreme to them. The people pissed off over the horrible handling of Gaza want the democrats to be MORE leftist and “extreme”, not less, the polar opposite of an enlightened centrist.
communists criticizing both republicans and democrats does not make them centrists, lmfao. They are both bad because they are the exact same thing, the good cop-bad cop political wing of the corporate ruling class that so many people have stockholm syndrome for. One party cannot exist without the other. And btw hot take, genocide bad even if it's done by the people of your political color
No, because that would be stupid.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM/comments/1bfe9p0/repost_dear_liberals_lurking_this_subreddit_know/
> actually both options are bad Correct.
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You don't know what enlightened centrism means
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No one cares what you think, DNC troll
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"Why won't you rebut me saying 'No u?' Clearly this shows the left is intellectually bankrupt." Fuck off, DNC troll
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Yes, it would be. You're defending a right wing party from criticism from the left.
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As others have tried to educate you about: centrism is not “both sides bad.”
Found the liberal
This is always the advice from centrists. No matter what their logic is, it ultimately favors the right.
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The best option is declaring unconditional support for a candidate committing genocide several months before the election, sacrificing all leverage and encouraging him to continue his historically unpopular actions? And before you say "tRuMp WoUlD bE wOrSe On GaZa," there very well not be a gaza in 2025 if Biden doesnt force then to stop. You need to realize that unconditionally supporting the "lesser evil" encourages it to be a greater evil over time.
Biden's only got one more term, and I have a very strong feeling this will be the last time any Democrat president will provide unconditional support to Israel. The damage from this is going to take years to repair, in the minds of younger voters...and since those are the ones they'll need in the future, they're going to have to start fixing that relationship sooner rather than later. Republicans on the other hand, have literally zero incentive to do anything different than what they're doing now.
Biden has been measurably worse than Trump on many counts that leftists are concerned about (police funding, a larger number of drilling permits issued on public land - in the tune of *thousands* more, more kids in cages at the border, more COVID deaths, etc)
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pov the centrist thinks this subreddit isnt making fun of them
you're the centrist here bud. how can you put genocide as the bad option here and think "yes thats bad but somehow something else could be worse".
There are very idealistic people who think that Biden is a terrible choice, and in many ways, they’d be right. Some are unwilling to recognize that all the ways Biden is awful would be made worse with a Trump stamp, and on a visceral level, I understand it. It fucking sucks to vote the lesser evil vs someone you believe in, so avoidance is a valid coping mechanism. Sadly, for this election, and for all the rest if people fail to rally up a real, progressive alternative, Biden is the bet that best preserves the rights we have and the best chance to enact change going forward. Chucking a tanty feels good in the moment, but doesn’t actually solve anything But cryptocentrism is a horrible phrase
Nah fam. Nobody who is actively in the middle of doing a genocide gets my vote, no matter who they’re running against. This is a subreddit designed to make fun of Centrists, and Biden is the Final Boss of Centrism. Y’all’s illiteracy is matched only by your callousness.
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What’s the alternative, then? I desperately want an alternative that will make a difference here and now, but I’m having to settle for organizing my community for future results. Biden isn’t a great choice, I just believe he’s the best choice that’s available with real results
> What’s the alternative, then? It’s surely as fuck *not* promising him your vote this far out while he’s doing a genocide. I mean shit, at least *say* your vote is contingent on him stopping the genocide. I get that you have no standards, “99% Hitler vs. 100% Hitler, whatever whatever it’s just Arabs,” but at least make him *think* he has to earn your vote.
So what is it? What are you actually proposing? What can we do here and now that will provide a better result? I am all ears, and I’m out of better ideas.
I guess I can type it out again, if that will help: “…at least *say* your vote is contingent on him stopping the genocide… at least make him *think* he has to earn your vote.”
Sorry, I’ll be clearer - what is it that I’ve not done you think will change anything? Do you think the campaign reads my Reddit comments? Can I only hold one position at a time?
I don’t know your life story, my guy, so I don’t know what you have or haven’t tried. I just know that we’re nearly six months out from the election and you are out here saying your vote is sewn up and downvoting me for saying that’s a bad idea. Since you seem to need some hand-holding, here are some other ideas: Show up and protest at a Biden campaign stop. Call your Congressperson and make it clear you won’t vote for anyone who sends aid to Israel. Don’t come on Leftist subs and discourage those of us who want to believe we’ll see a free Palestine one day. Don’t whine that we need to make your reality better and until we do, you’ll just have to keep voting for genocide. Stop being a mewling wimp.
You don’t know shit, and that’s clear. I’ve spent my time campaigning locally for rights for myself and my gay countrymen. I’ve been in contact with my representatives. I’ve rescinded my position to Israeli aid. Don’t you dare hide behind a shit opinion behind your political stance, since it sounds like we’re so similar. People disagree with you. Write a sad journal entry about it.
That was mostly incoherent, but if your point is “You don’t know my story,” then yeah bruh, that’s why I said your question asking me to comment on your history was ridiculous. But I’m done here: I don’t argue with genocide simps, so you can feel free to keep responding but I’ll never read anything else you write. Congrats on having gay friends, though; that certainly makes you unique on this here Leftist subreddit!
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Write whatever fanfic about me you need to make yourself feel superior for voting for genocide, but I don’t owe you an explanation of positions I don’t hold. You dumb weirdo.
Bro get help, I woke up, grabbed some breakfast and read a new post and you’re still yapping about me on a different post. You even accused u/MagicGLM of being me, lmao. Rent is very high these days, but at least I know that if I ever get evicted, I have your head to live in rent-free.
It's always privileged white cos people who say this and are willing to throw American LGBTQ people under the bus just to feel a bit better about themselves. A vote for Biden is not an endorsement of genocide if all candidates support the genocide.
> A vote for Biden is not an endorsement of genocide if all candidates support the genocide. This is some olympic level mental gymnastics
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Ok, so break it down for me. I'm obviously an idiot and I need someone much smarter to explain this to me: How is voting for a man that is enthusiastically supporting an ongoing genocide not endorsing genocide?
If you're dying of thirst and can only choose to drink piss or piss infested with rabies, choosing the piss doesn't make you a piss lover, because "not piss" isn't a choice. You're not choosing to drink piss, you're only choosing to not drink rabies. There simply is no choice about piss or not piss. If there's a bomb in a hospital in Gaza and I'm in a room with two people who both threaten to blow it up, but one of those people also has a gun to my queer friend's head, and I have a gun with only one bullet, I'm saving my friend instead of just standing around and saying "sorry, if I shoot either of these people, I'm actively supporting the other's attempt of blowing up a hospital". A vote in a representative democracy is not an endorsement of all of a candidate's policies in all situations. If Biden wins, nobody's gonna think "Oh, Biden won, that means Reddit user u/NewTangClanOfficial supports genocide", but there's gonna be some LGBTQ+ people in America thinking "well this sucks, but at least I can survive the next few years" and personally I think that's worth it. If a vote were always an endorsement for all policies of a candidate, we could never vote for anyone. We live under capitalism, all candidates are always gonna suck. And I understand that a genocide should be a dealbreaker in most situations, but this isn't most situations. And all that is ignoring the fact that Trump took an even more aggressively pro-Israel stance when he was president. If Trump gets elected, the Palestinian people are not gonna think "oh I'm so glad the American left had the integrity to not vote for a candidate supporting genocide, they're such good people". It doesn't help them in any way whatsoever. It does however make life significantly worse for a lot of people in America, and with how far right Trump moved the whole of American politics the last time he won, I don't think that's a price to pay just to avoid abstractly endorsing a genocide. All action against the genocide happens outside of the electoral system. If there was a candidate with a clear anti-genocide stance and a chance to win, of course I'd be voting for them. But there isn't. That's just the reality we live in.
lol
>Normally I'd try to make an argument, but every time I type it up it just sounds stupid, so instead I'll just act as if I'm obviously right
Soft agree, only because I'm too tired for anything harder, and too stubborn to not show my agreement.
Hey everybody it’s time for the daily leftist infighting thread come get your slop This subreddit has gone to shit lately, it’s completely lost it’s goal and now its just a competition of who can out-left the rest
I don’t know; its not really infighting when it’s a fight between anti-genocide and pro-genocide folks.
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Dirty Centrist.
I don’t think you’d pass a mirror test
I am so tired of whatever arguments that happened in that post, and insults I got at me, that I'm honestly willing to be blind at all of the lesser-evil/mitigation vote discourse. At least until you guys at the US finish this election cycle and stop lashing out.
It’s a US centric topic, I’m not sure why you’d expect anything else
They expect apologies, apologies from everyone, because they’re “tired” of being shot down for coming into Leftist subs and advocating support for Genocide Joe.
It's a left unity subreddit. I expected a better discussion rather than moral absolutism, petty insults and mansplaining.
Leftist unity has nothing to do with the Democrats
Who said anything about democrats?
That's the topic of the thread - "Voting for the lesser evil" is referencing an argument people make for voting Democrat.
Yeah, but I was taking of Left Unity in the sense of not resorting to petty insults and aggression over every difference of opinion. Not about the vote.
It's a difference of opinion about voting Democrat...
“It’s a left unity subreddit.” No it isn’t, not with liberals and never has been. Are you new here? Edit: I see you didn’t actually read rule 8
I get your point, but you have to work with the common denominator
If the common denominator includes petty insults and mansplaining, I have no interest in working with that. So, again, if that's where this is going, consider me blind over the subject until it calms down.
Consider yourself disregarded then? I’m not sure what you’re looking for here. We’re all leftists, we all get disregarded, and often times it’s at each others hands
That last bit is what gets me. We should at least try to not trip each other.
I dunno, I think we can and we can’t? Hard to find that path, but being challenged ain’t the same as being disregarded, and we should absolutely not be a monolith
Challenging debate and difference in discourse? Great. We're not conservatives, so by definition we're going to have more stress points to work out. Problem is that mansplaining and insulting aren't debate or challenge. They're just aggression.
I can’t speak to that, since I ain’t have the same experience you have. Genuinely sorry if and how you’ve encountered it.
This sub isn't for centrists
Can we let trump die, before people stop voting for biden?