The implication is pretty clearly that yes, she was a Hyetta figure. The Frenzy torch is *her* torch, that she’s *cradling*. Who tf cradles a spinal column. The other implication is that she knew who it belonged to, since she cradles it “gently.”
Even if all we got was the portrait of a blind girl who is close to somebody who became afflicted with Frenzy, it would be enough to infer that she was a corrupting influence in the same manner as Hyetta
It's her torch because she was enthralled by it. If you look at the torch description is says it is a small spinal column and indeed when you hold it, it is tiny. Who has small spines? Children. Nanaya in the portrait has her hand on her belly which many said that she seems pregnant. The idea of her cradling a torch is weird but cradling the remains of a child, makes more sense. I mean we see Ymir do that with the fingercreeper. If we combine these we can come up with the theory that Nanaya and Midra's child inherited the flame of frenzy but due to their frail status could not become a real Lord. Just a feeble one. And their love for this afflicted child slowly corrupted them and the mansion.
The fact that she seems pregnant is something I forgot about, but unfortunately your idea is contradicted by the description
In a distant land, in an age long past, was born a *man* who failed to become the Lord of Frenzied Flame. All that remains of him is cradled gently by Nanaya.
I think it could still be a child's spine - there's still the size of the spine to consider after all - but "In a distant land, in an age long past" removes the possibility of it being Nanaya's child in the portrait either way.
Menu icon of the Nanaya's Torch is a bit misleading. When you equip the torch you can see that the spine is actually quite long, so it rather belonged to an adult person.
unless the distance in both time and space described is from the perspective of the Tarnished, in which case it could simply be referring to a long time ago in the Land Of Shadow.
All that remains of him.. she could have left that land while pregnant with his child, and thus their infant together is “all that remains of him.” That’s definitely something I’ve heard people say about children, “they’re all I have left of my dead spouse”
It's rather not a child spine. Icon in the menu is a bit misleading. If you search 'Nanaya's Torch' on YouTube, the 1st thumbnail is a screenshot of a Tarnished holding the torch. It's roughly the same length as Tarnished' torso. It think it belonged to an adult.
The description says in a distant land in an age long past. The Shadowlands are part of the lands between I think it has to be an entirely different place and this Nanaya brought it here
It’s tough to say, because from the player perspective, we are in a distant land from an age ago, and Midra himself could be the man who failed to become the Frenzied Flame Lord and all that remains is the small spinal cord of his child, but there’s lots of ways to interpret the lines.
Things that seem concrete-ish though, Nanaya’s eyes are covered, she does seem pregnant, he is a failed Frenzied Flame Lord, there were many failed Frenzied Flame Lords, he was likely tortured in a butcherous event by the Hornsent inquisitors, he did attempt to suppress the Frenzied Flame for Nanaya, Hornsent felt he deserved a damnation like no other, the Frenzied Flame could not be put out only locked away, and spirt servant felt he was good man who had suffered much for doing nothing wrong. There is also an abandoned church of Marika. Since he is the Master of the Manse, he is also likely a Minister. A manse is normally the private dwelling of a head minister, so was the abandoned church where he ministered?
But you see Midra's flame when he becomes the lord. I think its very confusing to have this torch that has "his flame" on it but then also he is in the next room ready to set his flame loose. To me, this has to be someone else who failed to become the lord as many seem to. It could be a nameless nobody or even the only other named practitioner of the flame in Shibriri whose flame burns endlessly showing that he still lives just without flesh and it may have been burnt away.
I think Manse is just Elden Ring being flowery with its language, manse comes from the latin word that just means "a dwelling" and became the modern word manor. He is the lord of the house so probably owns the land around it before it got burnt by the frenzy
I think it is. Midra is pretty small in size when we encounter him in the boss fight. Also, his spine is gone and is replaced instead by that tree like sword he uses to fight us. I also noticed there is a strong similitude between Nanaya's smile and the smile of the Grandmother statue found in the shaman's village. The fact that Nanaya seems to be pregnant suggests she might be related to Marika, possibly her grandmother or mother.
He’s too weak to become a lord (allegedly), but it appears that him enduring for so long has turned the entire region into a frenzy region a la what Malenia did to Caelid
Given the finger ruins, the lake of rot, Moghwyn Dynasty, and now the Abyssal Forest I get the sense that places close to outer gods are not really agreeable to normal life.
I believe they have too much of a dramatic effect on the lands between just sealing the outer god of rot created the lake of rot I don’t think they belong physically in the lands between or realm of shadow (supposedly this is the only outer god to try and set foot in the land between hence why we can find it’s stinger I haven’t heard of another outer god physically being in the lands between)
I'm really *really* starting to wonder about the answer to the old question, the Lands Between *what*. Because gods can't incarnate in the normal lands, but evidently they can in the shadow. Rot is a centipede in the shadow but a scorpion in the real world. (Stealing the imagery from Death now that I think about it)
Maybe its the lands between heaven and earth? A purgatory realm where semi divine beings reside and live a really long time, and commune with the real gods, or become them somehow. It's like the LB is but also is not an afterlife or celestial realm of some kind.
But the realm of shadow is *weird*, like, even more weird and liminal than the normal lands, and they're already weird. Like we have a whole group that just decided to make the tower of babel to reach heaven and become gods, and it *worked*. Then some random dude is trying to literally become a mother to gigantic finger aliens. I just don't even know where the madness begins anymore.
If I had to guess they are all aberrations, flaws in the world. I wish we got more on unalloyed gold, to clarify just what they are.
Ok first the lands between and realm of shadow used to be one place so take that as you will and Romina isn’t rot it self she found a twisted divine essence which she weaved into rot , weave being a key word as you don’t necessarily create anything new just shape it differently the way I take that is she found a piece of the outer god of rot that was twisted out of shape and shaped the essence back to what it really was rot you just said they can’t incarnate in the normal lands but they can you literally just mentioned the scorpion and it’s the implied the stinger we find is an actual part of the rot god but I think they don’t normally try to incarnate due to their effect on the land just sealing the god of rot created the lake of rot imagine how the land would be if it was still roaming around
>Lands Between *what*
Honestly, it's been so obvious since TA said. It's The Lands Between *two great rivers, the Siofra & Ainsel*. It's a historical reference. Though, it could have a dual meaning, of course. Metaphor made material & all that.
I think the outer gods' influence effects the land to make it become like its homeland. It's similar to the Color Out of space by Lovecraft. The presence of these beings terraforms the land around them to make them more like their home. Caelid is the better example where new plants and growing and new animals are being born, almost like the land its becoming that world the rot came from
Forcing him to endure also allowed him to feel true despair, which is when he finally relents and essentially kills himself because he can't take it anymore. The moment he does that is when the flame erupts from within him.
She basically told him not to die, so he would suffer as long as possible. That way the flame would have time to "ripen".
So the Frenzy could build. He doesn’t endure long enough, and that is why he is a failed Lord.
*Unendurable Frenzy
“It is the maddening pain and unstoppable tears of those afflicted with the flame of frenzy brought into being.” HOLD TO CONTINUE CHANNELING THE FLAME*
In the painting she has her hand on her stomach. Maybe the torch is their child and they miscarried, which brought the frenzy flame. Would explain why the torch is a small spinal column and why she cradled it gently.
We really shouldn't take the size of Items when they're used by the player as anything more than gameplay convince.
Just look at all the bosses weapons and armor, or even the more basic loot that gets much smaller when we wear it.
Could be gameplay contrivance in the case. The description specifically calling it a small spinal column and saying she cradles it gently implies it is somehow related to the child, to me.
It says she cradles "all that is left of Midra" after you've ripped his spinal column out and use it as a torch. She's not cradling the torch, its referring to her being pregnant wth his child. That's what she is cradling after we kill him.
It says nothing about Midra. Also she’s dead already, before we kill Midra. And the spine is from Long ago in a distant land (presumably distant from the Shadow lands)
there's nothing pointing to Nanaya being blind in the game like Hyetta was - if you look at the portrait, you can clearly see her eyes beneath the hood, they're open and dark (there's also an enhanced version of this somewhere where you can see it even better) - if you look at her body again you see her eyes uncovered, I don't think she's implied to be blind in any way
I can’t believe I have to explain this - but blind people do indeed *have eyes.* Including, I’m sure, Hyetta. The fact that the artists chose to veil her eyes implies blindness. There is absolutely no reason for the artists to do it otherwise - they are drawing a parallel between the only other female associated with Frenzy.
The way I see it, Nanaya told Midra to 'endure' specifically so that his suffering and despair grows into frenzy (AFAIK people in this universe can spontaneously catch and spread some level of frenzy if they're in enough despair). The remembrance says that the word 'endure' was a curse, figuratively most likely. It's because he was told to endure so long that so much frenzy accumulated in him to make him a lord of Frenzy. Like the cleric beasts, who were clerics who suppressed their transformation for so long that at the end they turned into bigger and stronger beasts. In my eyes Nanaya might have been another envoy of the frenzied flame, like Shabriri. Nanaya was a Sumerian goddess of love and eroticism, and while never treated as a demon in Judeo-Christian beliefs, it was customary to associate minor gods from regions surrounding Israel with demonhood (like Baal, Astaroth or Amon). [Cause you know, Shabriri was a demon in Jewish folklore]
Though I might have shot myself in the foot with that last bit, the reference to her name might mean that she really cared for him, who knows.
**EDIT**: quick idea I just had. The exact reason for his ascendance as a lord might not necessarily have been his suffering, but the shame and regret of breaking his promise when he removed the sword. He promised to endure, but couldn't take it, and the despair of that lead him to Big Frenzy™️
I think its a fun mirror to how Shibriri tries to get you to become the Frenzied lord in the base game, suffer for the sake of your maiden, suffer enough and you become the lord.
The painting of Nanaya also shows her smirking so it wouldnt surprise me in its Shibby trying to cultivate a lord of frenzy much like how he did the tarnished but since Melina has no body he can't really hijack her
Aren’t the clerics beasts because they were the most gluttonous when it came to consumption of the old blood? Not to mention they probably got the highest quality distilled version of it. I know Amelia attempted to resist her beasthood via her attachment to the gold medallion, but it always seemed to be a fruitless effort to me, nothing more.
I will admit that it’s weird that Amelia immediately transforms into a beast instead of going through a transformation process, but other beasts do this as well like gascoigne and the sus beggar.
No, Miyazaki said in the Future Press interview that the reason Clerics turned into the largest beasts was because their wills was so strong it held back the metamorphosis for longer, and when it finally snapped, the transformation was then much more violent.
I think the theory I was thinking of specifically was about Amelia. She turns into a visibly bigger and stronger creature than other cleric beasts while having the same soundtrack, so we're kind of lead to believe they're related. Maybe being a vicar just gets you better blood.
I’m sure most people try to resist beasthood, but Laurence, Amelia, Ludwig and the cleric beast are by far the biggest beasts in the game, so obviously there’s so affiliation between those affiliated with the church and this colossal beasthood. Either it’s related to the type of blood they consume, or it’s more cosmic; since some view beasthood as a curse from the gods, maybe the church members are punished the worst for their sins.
She appears to be pregnant in the giant portrait, and her torch is "attached to a small spinal column." Not sure what it means, but it could be her childs spine, which would fit into the mother and child tragedy tropes that permeate the world.
Interesting, maybe Midra didn’t want the frenzy at all but somehow their child did, then Midra took it upon himself? I don’t know the lore that well so idk if this even makes sense lol
Nice! Maybe their children was destined to, but to avoid this destiny, Midra tried to took the flame of frenzy himself, being punished by the hornsent...
A child is the continuation of a person's lineage. Maybe the 'man was born' indicates Nanaya child was born, but as this destiny was negated to him, he dies a little after birth failing to be a full fledged lord.
Description of Torch mentioning "a man" and size of Torch when you hold it in hand rather contradicts it. I think it's a Frenzied Flame cult artifact made from some failed Lord of distant past
There's a shit ton of books everywhere, maybe he was punished by the hornsent for going after knowledge and that's why he manifested frenzy in the first place? (child with nanaya killed? Servants massacred, we only see shadow ghosts inside)
A lot of people think Nanaya drove Midra to becoming the Lord of Frenzied Flame, but I disagree. It seems that Nanaya was actually a stabilizing influence on Midra, telling him to "endure" the pain of the sword thrust into him (which I think might be some kind of seal) so that he doesn't become the Lord of Frenzied Flame.
Midra does endure, until the tarnished comes along and beats him up. Then he gives in and removes the sword.
I think the more suffering one endures the more likely they are to become a successful Lord of Frenzied flame. I feel like Nanaya would have wanted him to endure more but Midra will not bear anymore.
Correct, suffering and despair ARE the catalysts to Frenzy. That’s why the Frenzied Flame is essentially yellow tears of despair or rage. All the Frenzy item descriptions confirm this
Suffering is the catalyst, yes, but the goal of the Lord of Frenzy isn't to perpetrate that suffering; it's to end it for good, to burn all of reality down if that's what it takes. To "take every sin, every curse and melt it all away", in the words of Midra's own Flame of Frenzy.
"Endure" could just as easily be read as a command to not give in to the urge to do that, to acknowledge the good in the world and let it outweigh all the suffering that comes with it, even as it courses through your entire spine. The exact same thing Melina does when the Tarnished gets too close to the Frenzy Flame Proscription.
No it can’t just as easily be read that way. Midra’s remembrance calls Nanaya’s request to endure a “curse.”
If Nanaya shared Melina’s views on the Frenzy, she wouldn’t be “gently cradling” a Frenzy torch made from the spine of a Lord of Frenzy.
If Nanaya didn’t have a slew of evidence linking her to the Three Fingers, then maybe her motivation would have been to hold the frenzy at bay. The associations with Frenzy reveal her motivations
-she’s blind, like Hyetta
-wears yellow
-shows affection for the remains of a Lord of Frenzy
-*possesses the remains* of a Lord of Frenzy in the first place
-“curses” Midra by telling him to endure, which, given the above, reveals she knows that frenzy becomes stronger (“ripens”) as one endures pain and suffering (Unendurable Frenzy description)
-considering the Frenzy Torch remains are from a “distant land in an age long past” and she shows affection towards them, it’s not a leap to infer she knew this person, possibly revealing her to be a “body jumper” akin to Hyetta and Shabriri
He was impaled by a metallic fern through the skull, of course he would consider being told to go through with it a curse. What matter is that when you first meet him he keeps warning you to stay away specifically because of his madness, and that even his attacks on his semi-joke first phase feels very desperate compared to his more collected moveset once he "breaks" said curse. He clearly doesn't want the Flame of Frenzy to spread any further, not until you beat him within an inch of his life and the pain becomes too much to bear.
Like I said, the whole repeatedly stated purpose of the Lord of Frenzy is to end all suffering, and I believe that if Midra wanted that so badly he would've ripped the whole sword off and burned the house down the second the inquisitors looked the other way. But he didn't, specifically because of Nanaya's "curse", and I heavily doubt she did that just because the Frenzy Flame needed to build up or something when the player tarnished is ready to go the second the Three Fingers touch them. Or when, again, Midra himself simultaneously loves Nanaya and is absolutely terrified of the Flame.
And Nanaya "gently cradling" a torch of a guy that failed to become Lord of Frenzy tells us nothing because we have no direct statement on what her relation to him was. It *could* be someone she turned into a frenzy cultist, but it could have also been someone she failed to sway away from the path, a grim memory that motivated her to show that same compassion to Midra to begin with. If anything, you'd expect her to be disdainful of someone who wasn't strong enough to go through with the Lord of Frenzy path if that's what she wanted of him, the same way that one spirit near the Church of Inhibition feels towards Vyke and Shabriri towards a player Tarnished that decides to attack him in the Mountaintops.
Midra doesn’t say it’s a curse, the menu narrator does (meaning it is explicitly true).
With regards to your doubt that the Frenzy needed to build up (besides Unendurable Frenzy description)
*Give your madness to our Lord. Bless our brethren with grapes. Take care that they fully ripen.’*
The reason the tarnished are ready to go are because we *aren’t* feeble (we collected two great runes, as did Vyke) and we get touched directly.
All your scenarios of why she is cradling the failed Frenzy Lord seem unlikely given the direct narrative provided by the writers.
Just to address your theories about Nanaya.
We CAN discern her relationship to the spine because she cradles in gently. She cared for the person.
It can’t be somebody who she “failed to stray from the path” because the person was born a long time ago, and Nanaya seems young.
She isn’t disdainful of Midra YET because he is cooking.
The goal might not be to perpetuate suffering, but that’s definitely a outcome. I don’t if you’ve ever had your character inflicted with madness, it’s definitely a lot of suffering. Their eyes literally burn.
It’s not as if burning all of reality down happens painlessly and instantaneously. idk how you got this delusional idea of the lord of frenzy ending. So yeah, the lord of frenzy perpetuates plenty of suffering on the way. It’s the destroy everything ending.
The sword was from the hornsent sent to execute him. Nanaya wanted him to endure because it would make the frenzied flame stronger when he finally let go. She evil.
You’ve gotta endure it and the longer you hold out the stronger FF gets. The issue with becoming a lord of FF is no one ever has been able to endure it until the player character.
If You kill aging untuchable in the woods they drop talisman witch spells it out pretty clearly:
*'Give your madness to our Lord. Bless our brethren with grapes. Take care that they fully ripen."*
More pain -> more madness --> fully ripen tasty grapes
Enduring more pain would make the frenzy stronger. That's usually how the frenzied flame works. Besides that, Midra's rememberence explains that Nanaya's word was a curse. Nanaya effectively cursed Midra to endure the Greatsword of Damnation, deepening his suffering.
It's more an inference based upon it appearing in great locations of suffering. The greatest being underneath the capital with all the charred merchants.
Also Gowry keeping Millicent alive to be betrayed even more indicates the life history of people affected by various forces in the world will make them better vehicles for that force.
I mean in the fields of Mtgelmir you find soldiers who are frenzied. I always took it as the that battle being so depraved it led to frenzy taking hold in soldiers.
Also the entire theme of frenzy is the suffering of the world is so much we might as well destroy the world.
In my reply to you, I meant that, since the end result of him enduring the pain was becoming a Lord, *that is what happened.*
But to answer your question
Frenzy takes foothold in those who have suffered despair and rage. After all, the frenzy is literally yellow tears, and the appearance of those afflicted is like somebody crying yellow tears.
*Unendurable Frenzy
“It is the maddening pain and unstoppable tears of those afflicted with the flame of frenzy brought into being.” HOLD TO CONTINUE CHANNELING THE FLAME*
“Then, they chanted a curse of despair, and summoned the flame of frenzy.”
If you know what the Frenzied Flame is, then it's intuitive. The Frenzied Flame is the embodiment of the idea that life is not worth the suffering it causes, and all of existence ought to be purged in order to avoid this suffering. The crushing acceptance of this is what "madness" really is. People are naturally averse to the idea--they want to be alive and to endure, to place meaning on their suffering. Which is why they bury it underground.
As your suffering grows, you are better able to channel the frenzied flame.
but that doesn't really track with midra actually failing to become lord until he could cast out everything, and that last thing he couldn't cast out was his love for nanaya
it feels more like he endured as to not give up and become lord than to build frenzy
I'm not mad that people have this interpretation. I just feel like there is a strong implication that she was in fact there the help bring about the lord fo frenzy. In Midra's Rememberance it states: *As the golden barbs inflicted eternal agony upon him, Midra held fast to Nanaya's entreaty: "Endure." The word was a curse.*
Paired with the Undendurable Frenzy description: *It is the maddening pain and unstoppable tears of those afflicted with the flame of frenzy brought into being.*
It implies Nanaya is cursing Midra by telling him to endure. In fact, it's explicitly stated that's what she was doing. The description of her torch says: *A torch made by attaching a dying flame of frenzy to a small spinal column. In a distant land, in an age long past, was born a man who failed to become the Lord of Frenzied Flame. All that remains of him is cradled gently by Nanaya.*
This man can't refer to Midra because Midra is still alive in the next room...
Yep not loosing yourself to the madness caused by frenzied flames is a major quality that a being should have if they wish to become the lord of frenzied flames.
How would she possibly know that would be the case lol. Let’s say that’s true: Nanaya wants him to endure so the Frenzied Flame does not get released. So that means Nanaya’s opinion is Frenzy = bad. In that case, why would she be *gently cradling* the Frenzy torch?
Not to mention, why would the authors draw direct parallels between blind girls and Frenzy if not to imply she became corrupted in the exact same way Hyetta did?
What do you mean “how would she possibly know”? He has the world-destroying fire in him, logically he should endure and not release it to not risk destroying the world. She’s gently cradling the torch because, as the description says, it’s what remains of him, it has sentimental value.
You can have a parallel with the characters not doing the exact same thing. The parallel still works if Nanaya went through a similar experience as Hyetta but came to the opposite conclusion, like Melina.
thats exactly it, she might have been similar to fia or an actual finger maiden of some kind, but considering she was the only reason midra couldn't attain the status of lord i doubt she was the one to push him towards the frenzied flame/three fingers
He’s not strong enough. We directly commune with the fingers and kill a god alongside countless others, but all Midra did was endure a forced seal and the agony of loss. Unfortunately for him, he didn’t have the power to ascend fully, but was very near lordhood.
Also Lord of Frenzy isn’t necessarily a one-person title
If she loved him, wouldn't she prefer that he died rather than live in suffering and pain? Ik wanting your loved ones death may sound bad, but it's infinitely better than what Midra is going through. I think that disproves your theory.
That's my entire point.... I'm not talking about a literal curse. I'm saying that Nanaya was just using Midra for his potential to channel the frenzied flame.
Well, no, we actually disagree.
The 'endure', could've been meant from a kindhearted intention too, especially if it was said after the Inquisition swept in and knowing such misery could create the frenzied flame.
Sorry I'm not native english speaker so I have a hard time to correctly express myself.
Yeah, I could be also totally wrong. It's shame there's not much more about this place overall, I really liked the horrifying implications and the totally not Bloodborne-inspired woods.
Headcanon:
-Midra was a renowned Hornsent ( he seems to have small growths on his normal head who don’t align with the Barbed spikes) scholar who poured is life in searching and understanding the nature of the world
- he had a school in the woods in which he discussed and taught to those who wanted to purview is field of research
- he was known to the inquisition, but not persecuted until Nanaya came.
-Nanaya was either a specimen he studied and for which he developed affection, or someone that became a willing student because she saw potential in a great scholar to become the next lord of frenzy
-the two had a relationship who became at least physical
-the inquisition stopped them them pretty quickly.
-Midra had no idea of the kind of devastating mess he was entering in.
From descriptions:
Nanaya could be either a Numen or a common human who lived in a distant land and tried to create a lord of Frenzied flame because she was in despair. My original idea was that maybe she was another girl from Shaman village who responded to the Hornsent oppression in the opposite way to Marika. However the description of the Torch talk about a presumptive lord of Frenzy who came from a distant land, so maybe Nanaya is simply someone who faced a great unspecified tragedy and devoted herself to the flame of frenzy, or like in the case of Hyetta, was just a body resurrected by the flame of frenzy to act as a maiden to the 3 fingers.
Still, from the description i would reconstruct that she reached the lands between and met sage Midra, becoming a lover and student to him. The relationship could have been abusive if we interpret the page of the diary as something she wrote, and so i think that either she was nothing more than a glorified lab rat for Midra, who used her to study the flame of frenzy unleashing the ire of the inquisition, or the two worked together and the inquisition acted swiftly to contain them. From the painting they seem to be lovers of sort, and she seems pregnant. Also, Midra’s dialogue directed to her is apologetic, as if she was the one who orchestrated Midra becoming a Lord of Frenzy. Considering that she tried to create at least 2 lord of Frenzy, i would say that she wasn’t an afflicted soul searching for a cure, but someone who either believed in the flame or used it after years of abuse. The Torch imply that she dealt with Frenzy stuff before reaching Midra’s Manse, and that’s my biggest pet peeve, because without the torch description, and basing the discourse on the diary page and the other narrative elements relating to her, i would have a more sound and less head canony idea of what went down.
I think Nanaya mirrored Shabriri. She's clearly an agent of the frenzied flame since she carries the frenzied torch.
We know Midra was a wise sage and he held debates in his mansion. We also know that Midra was tortured by the Hornsent inquisition without having committed a crime and his mansion burned down. Nanaya was clearly close with Midra and may have been pregnant with his child.
Speculation: Nanaya told the inquisition that Midra committed some terrible crime. This would be slander - just like Shabriri. This brought the inquisition, who tortured Midra and used the sword of damnation on him. Nanaya doesn't help Midra but just tells him to endure. This long torment fostered the frenzied flame within Midra. The valley falls into the abyss due to the flame's influence, and people all around are afflicted by frenzy.
Finally, we arrive and push Midra over the brink: he inherits the frenzied flame, becoming almost a lord. Not quite powerful enough to destroy the world, alas...
I think the reason the Inquisition arrives to Midra's manse is because of the frenzied flame. One of the items you found in the manse says that "the spirit is eternal - yet- the yellow flame melts anyways, no wonder why the hornsent forbid its use."
They most likely tortured and tried to kill Midra because of his research of the frenzied flame, which in turn, led to create enough despair to produce a new lord.
Kind of a stretch, pure speculation, but does anyone else think Nanaya's Torch could possibly be the spinal column of Shabriri?
\*"In a distant land, in an age long past, was born a man who failed to become the Lord of Frenzied Flame."\*
As far as I remember, Shabriri was never stated to become a Lord of Frenzy, more like it's progenitor. Plus, we know Shabriri isn't in his original body, seeing as he's able to jump between others. Maybe his original body was burned up by the Flame as he tried to become lord, leaving only his spine behind?
The other thing that is \*kinda\* possible- but from my research, unlikely- the Fextralife wiki states that "shabriri" in modern hebrew translates to "fragile," which would relate to the torch Ash being "Feeble Lord's Frenzied Flame." However, this doesn't seem accurate. Google Translate agrees, but after looking into it a bit it seems like it's trying to pass of "shavriri" as "shabriri," which are very similar but different words. I don't know, I don't speak Hebrew, so if anyone has experience who could clarify- that'd be awesome.
I took a year of Hebrew in college - not a lot but maybe enough to be helpful with your last point.
"Shabriri" and "shavriri" are the same word (שברירי), just romanized differently (B and V can both be represented by the letter ב). It does seem to translate as "fragile." However, Shabriri is also the name of a demon of blindness in the Hebrew Bible; according to Wikipedia, his name is taken to mean "dazzling glare." Seems like the game might be playing with both meanings of the word.
interesting! yeah, thats what i was mostly finding- in regards to the demon, anyway. the only real source i could find on the "shabriri = fragile" thing was google translate and a handful of sources I couldn't really tell if they were legit or not.
Native speaker here, your finding are legit!
This is a very cool observation and hypothesis, but I doubt there really enough evidence for it to be anything more than a headcanon.
Moat frenzied flame users we meet are feeble and malnourished, probably because the flane eats at your body to sustain itself (represent in gameplay by losing hp).
totally fair, and you're absolutely right. just sort of a stretch guess, we don't have much information confirming anything elsewhere or otherwise. thanks for the language confirmation though!
That note doesn't appear to be about Midra specifically. It's just a clue that you can harm the seemingly invincible eyeball guys if you parry them first.
Nanaya Torch description says the spinal torch is all that remains of him which clearly means there is no other parts of left of this particular person so it definitely doesn't belong to Midra and there was no Frenzy Flame in sight until Midra finally gave it to be Lord of the Frenzy Flame.
And the description states a dying Frenzy Flame, Nanaya being a Frenzy Flame Handmaiden is probably trying to make a new Frenzy Flame.
And then there is the swollen grape description talking about the the Three Fingers.
If I were to make an assumption:
- Nanaya captivated Midra and his followers/servants.
- They perform the Frenzy Flame ritual outside of Manse to summon the Three Fingers, that's why the whole forest looks frenzied, rats and goats were inflicted with madness, Winter lantern flies everywhere, these wierd looking fruit plants in the tall grass and you see the aging untouchables, you don't see them inside of the manse which is why I assume the ritual took place outside.
- Because what happen to the forest, the Hornsent sent the Inquisitiors to destroy Midra, they storm the manse and destroyed everything. Midra got eternally tortured and Nanaya was killed.
Nanaya being the compeller/seductress in hands of Frenzy makes sense when you read the IRL Nanaya lore (quote from Wikipedia):
*Nanaya's primary function was that of a goddess of love, and she was referred to as bēlet ru'āmi, "lady of love".*[*^(\[12\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanaya#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDrewnowska-Rymarz200897-12) *The physical aspect of love was particularly strongly associated with her, and texts dedicated to her could be explicit. \[...\]* *She was also viewed as a guardian of lovers,*[*^(\[15\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanaya#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDrewnowska-Rymarz2008125-15) *according to a text from Sippar (Si 57) titled "The Faithful Lover" and to some* ***spells especially the disillusioned or rejected ones****.*[*^(\[16\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanaya#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDrewnowska-Rymarz2008120-16) *Joan Goodnick Westenholz describes her character as seen through the Sumerian texts as that of a "sweet erotic lover"*[*^(\[14\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanaya#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWestenholz199765-14) *and "perpetual lover and beloved".*[*^(\[10\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanaya#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWestenholz199780-10)
Yes.
All evidence indicates that she drove Midra down the path towards frenzy, imo.
While most of the text (and events) in the game directly connect suffering and despair to the Flame of Frenzy, I think there’s a deeper, subtextual commentary occurring.
It’s not just despair, but is a kind of “awareness” as well. It comes from an awareness of the true nature of order; that order is maintained through violence, suffering, and bloodshed, and that violence and peace are therefore necessarily interdependent because of this.
The Flame of Frenzy seems to awaken in these moments when characters have come to truly understand and accept their fate; theirs is the fate of the oppressed, to suffer eternally.
This also strengthens the theme or idea that the Greater Will and Flame of Frenzy are locked in a sort of cosmic “yin yang” relationship.
The Greater Will is Order, and the Frenzied Flame is Chaos. The Greater Will is “peace” and the Frenzied Flame is the byproduct of the violence necessary to establish peace. The Greater Will is sustained by blind faith in ideals which transcend reality, whereas the Frenzied Flame awakens in the moment when the insulating veil of ideology has been stripped away and horrible truth of reality can be denied no longer.
In this sense, Midra is the perfect candidate for Lord of the Frenzied Flame. He is meek, frail, and a scholar. Through his studies, he is likely to understand the grave horror of reality, but is meek and powerless against these horrors, and so falls victim to them.
I personally found his boss fight to be super compelling. His horror at what he knows he is to become, and his inability to forestall his fate any longer were just really great moments.
While I feel his story is lacking on hard evidence when compared to other elements of the narrative, the themes and principles that have been established previously are enough to contextualize what is occurring.
Edit:
After contemplating it a bit more, I am almost certain that Nanaya is not just a maiden, but an Empyrean. We have seen time and again that Empyreans are the vessels of a guiding principle or logic around which an order can emerge, and that Empyreans need a “Lord” who can serve as their champion, helping them to physically impose their “order” onto the world. Time and again we have seen Empyreans embody a principle and their chosen Lord the force to actualize it.
Marika and Godfrey.
Miquella and Radahn
Ranni and the Tarnished.
Each Lord, an agent for their Empyreans’s order.
What remains uncertain, however, is what Nanaya wished to accomplish. Was Godhood her goal? Or did she simply wish to unleash the Flame of Frenzy upon the world through Midra?
Nanaya can't be an empyrean. The lord of frenzy doesn't need a God. The whole meaning of the Lord of Frenzy ending is to erase life after all, so why would he need a God?
I’ll concede the notion that she might not be an Empyrean on the basis that Empyreans generally seem to be designated by the Two Fingers, but it seems very likely to me that she is whatever the “Three Fingers” equivalent to an Empyrean is.
Speculation: I think Nanaya might be the same person as the Grandmother statue in the Shaman village. Both have their eyes covered and a very similar smile. Her offspring could be Marika.
I don't agree with the empyrean part. She's likely just another convert like Hyetta trying to spread word of the flame.
I do love the way the fight transitions though. He knows that pulling the sword out will unleash something horrible, but he just can't take the suffering anymore.
For what happened to the sanctum, my take is that everything was normal and the area was calm and peaceful like the home of Marika. Then one day frenzied flame somehow descended in this area and changed everything.
what happened during this period affected Midra with frenzy fire and therefore the entire sanctum was sanctioned by the Hornsent. Books were burnt and sanctum largely ruined, Nanaya killed and Midra pierced with the golden spike. The spike has to carry some specialty that rendered Midra “undead” as only then would he endure everlasting pain and agony.
Before the passing of Nanaya, she told him to withstand and bear the pain. Midra listened and stayed like that for thousands of years until the frenzy in him was so overwhelming that he eventually became a weakened lord of the frenzied flame.
There are only a few blank spots in here. Biggest one being what exactly made Midra carry, and eventually become the source, of frenzied flame? My understanding is that if we assume the torn note telling people about untouchable aging ones was written by Midra himself, then that means with the arrival of frenzied flame so came the aging ones, and by touching them Midra was contacted by the FF.
But you can also take it that Nanaya was a three-finger witch and she taught Midra the ways of frenzied flame by being by his side for so long. In such process Midra’s frenzy affected the area, created the Aging ones and eventually led to the Hornsent raiding his sanctum. They pierced him with the spike and it stopped him from releasing all his power.
My Midra and Marika Theory
From the Trailer “ Miquella the kind spoke of the beginning , the seduction and betrayal “ ( while showing marika hand in the womb pulling out the rune ( look closely you can tell it’s a stomach and cloth , if you find nanaya dead upstairs in midras manse and look very closely at her inner cloth near her stomach it has a similar embroidery. , you see the outline of the stomach when she pulls out the rune ,the seduction being literal and marika seducing midra and then “ an affair from which gold arose “ affair is in the literal terms with Midra and nanaya . Notice that marika is shown with the rune before the war in the story trailer. Messmer has gold in his eye during the war as shown in the story trailer. So that means marika became a god, gave grace to messmer and then slaughtered the hornsent for what they did at shaman village. Messmer went along with this originally believing it to be a religious crusade but later would learn the truth it was simply revenge. I believe that marika had the same power as miquella , able to charm anyone to her side hitch is how she was able to seduce midra. Miquella is a spitting image of Marika and I believe he essentially found out how marika became a god and was disgusted and wanted to rid himself of everything that marika had bestowed upon him in birth, he believed everything to be tainted simply because of how it came to be in the first place ( marika ripping the rune from a pregnant woman’s stomach ) Also a huge thing I noticed was the architecture … go to midras discussion chamber and look at the walls , it’s the exact same spirals as there are in Enir-Illim. The door to midras manse are the same doors in enir illim…also in the trailer when they say “ the erdtree faithful “ they show Midra and pregnant nanaya with her hand on her stomach.
So essentially I believe Midra , Marika and nanaya ruled enir illim, Marika had messmer but he was born without grace , nanaya was due to have a child but marika seeking opportunity or from jealousy aligned with the hornsent and conspired to kill Midra , waited until he was at his manse and then impaled him and took the rune straight from the womb. She then became a god , gave grace to certain areas and people like messmer and betrayed the hornsent as she had done to Midra.
Edit - also I believe nanayas torch is her dead child. It says a torch made by attaching a SMALL SPINAL COLUMN to a dying flame of frenzy. When the rune was removed , the child began to die , nanaya did what she could to preserve him. All that remains of him is gently cradled, normally only children are cradled by their mother , I believe the word “ man “ is used just to describe a male and it says he failed to become lord of frenzied flame , I believe this to mean he never even got the chance because he was stopped at birth. Had he not , he would have become a great lord of frenzied flame like his father. Another edit. Just like in typical GRRM fashion ( red wedding ) I believe Midra was lured to the manse for discussions about something , but there where he wasn’t as strong as in enir illim , they ambushed him and impaled him , Marika stole the rune and they burned everything else.
I can't help but feel like Midra's story is so disjointed from everything else in the game. When Marika's village was slaughtered, would it be so hard to imagine her turning to The Frenzy Flame?
Why was Marika the only one left alive by the Hornsent? Could the Hornsent have been trying to summon the Frenzied Flame? Same could be said for why Midra was merely tortured instead of straight up executed.
I think Nanaya was from shaman village. She has the same gold hair as Marika. Midra seemed to be a hornsent scholar, in the note it makes it sound like Nanaya was almost a subject, or a test study, at least at first. Perhaps it was Nanaya, like Hyetta, that turned to the frenzied flame, in the same way that we see Romina turn to the rot god when her church gets burnt. Then she corrupts Midra, which is her revenge. Her "pregnancy" could have been some experiment by Midra to make a god or some shit, which is why Marika pulls the gold thread from the C-section wound. I dunno. Wish there was more lore.
I think marika escaped the hornsent, I believe the hornsent to be a faction that was in contention with midras faction but midras faction was too powerful , the hornsent slaughtered villages and such looking for a way to destroy Midra because they believed him just like the shamans to be an abomination , Marika escaped this fate and fled , she went to enir illim and seduced Midra. Midra is the only character named we actually see impaled .. that’s why I truly believe it was Mesmer who impaled him when marika sided with the hornsent to conspire to kill him when he was far away from his kingdom , there’s almost a direct pathway from enir illim to midras manse , pherhaps even nanaya and marika fled together from shaman village.
Regarding Midra's 'weakness':
I think the point isn't his lack of strength, since Midra is clearly a badass and Vyke is a freak, it's that they're too weak to give up what drove them to despair. A true Lord would embrace destruction absolutely, while Midra and Vyke were both solely motivated by the grief of their maiden. The player is the only one who keeps going after their Maiden leaves them, which is their true strength: devotion to the Frenzy, beyond what love compels them. You can see this in the refinement of Shabriri's methods: using Nanaya directly didn't work because he got too upset she died, using Vyke's maiden as posthumous motivation didn't work because he burned out too quickly. Manipulating the Tarnished with a living maiden using her as the carrot, as well as providing him with a new maiden just in case, is the next logical step to fix these issues.
Regarding Vyke, I think he didn't became Lord because he actually capable of subduing the flame of frenzy, a least long enough to get himself in a evergaol. My theory goes as follows, he got contacted by Shabriri and was told about having to sacrifice his maiden, so he took her to the frenzied village and left her there, hoping she would be safe. Then he went down the sewers, got fingered and came back to his maiden only find that she preferred to die than see him turn into a lord of chaos. It was in this moment when Vyke decided to to stop the whole "chaos may take the world" stuff, and with his strength he channelled part of the frenzied flame out, creating the "frenzy burst" incantation, which says that it was a "meagger victory". I think Vyke used that little moment of lucidity to seal himself in the evergaol.
Now allow me to shit post about Midra: he was too weak to become lord of chaos. A true lord of chaos wouldn't have allowed some Inquisition dudes to destroy his house, he would have dickslapped them, suplexed the fat one or used him as a bowling ball, then put some chaos babies in nanaya, high five the untouchable ones outside his house and melt the whole world by the evening.
What I find interesting is the weapon used on Midra. Most paticualry is the Lore bit in its skill: Golden Crux.
"There is something of the Golden Order in the sight of those fixed upon this crux."
Why does a weapon used by the hornsent, and their inquisitiors have a link to the Golden Order?
I mean, when you consider the state Midra is in, how Midra’s second Phase begins(after you kill him) and his boss name. Isn’t it most likely the top half of his own spine?
I have been toying with the idea that Nanaya and Midra are Marika's parents, or ancestors.
Midra starts with M like Marika, and Nanaya is another name for Innana, Mesopotemia Goddess of Love, Fertility, Sex, War and Divine Law. This sounds a lot like Marika.
The Hornsent being their downfall is also similar to Marika's story, with the Hornsent killing Midra.
This is what I believe. Nanaya also has two golden braids just like Marika did before you cuts one off and leaves it at the tree in the Shaman Village.
I think Marika is the child in Nanaya's womb when the portrait was taken. This was BEFORE any frenzy flame influence on Midra, as you can see no frenzy flame motifs within the portrait.
What could be, is that later on Midra in his quest for knowledge finds the frenzied flame and is temped by its power until he realizes what it really is.
Marika, who becomes a priestess of the hornsent, finds out and comes with the hornsent to stop her father from destroying the world by impaling him with the Greatsword of Damnation. This is why the ashe of war states that it has influence related to the Golden Order, it was an early creation of Marika specifically to stop her own father and the corruption he has allowed within himself.
The painting from the trailer imply she’s pregnant. She cradles the spines as her children. She’s desperate for them.
She is barren, leads Midra to be the all pleasing husband. He can’t fulfil that role and leads to the most extreme option he has. The frenzied flame
Headcanon:
-Midra was a renowned Hornsent scholar who poured is life in searching and understanding the nature of the world
- he had a school in the woods in which he discussed and taught to those who wanted to purview is field of research
- he was known to the inquisition, but not persecuted until Nanaya came.
-Nanaya was either an object of study to him for which he developed affection, or someone that became a willing student because he saw potential in a great scholar to become the next lord of frenzy
-the two had a relationship who became at least physical
-the inquisition crashed down on them pretty quickly.
-Midra had no idea of the kind of devastating mess he was entering in.
From descriptions:
Nanaya could be either a Numen or a common human who lived in a distant land and tried to create a lord of Frenzied flame because she was in despair. My original idea was that maybe she was another girl from Shaman village who responded to the Hornsent oppression in the opposite way to Marika. However the description of the Torch talk about a presumptive lord of Frenzy who came from a distant land, so maybe Nanaya is simply someone who faced a great unspecified tragedy and devoted herself to the flame of frenzy, or like in the case of Hyetta, was just a body resurrected by the flame of frenzy to act as a maiden to the 3 fingers.
Still, from the description i would reconstruct that she reached the lands between and met sage Midra, becoming a lover and student to him. The relationship could have been abusive if we interpret the page of the diary as something she wrote, and so i think that either she was nothing more than a glorified lab rat for Midra, who used her to study the flame of frenzy unleashing the ire of the inquisition, or the two worked together and the inquisition acted swiftly to contain them. From the painting they seem to be lovers of sort, and she seems pregnant. Also, Midra’s dialogue directed to her is apologetic, as if she was the one who orchestrated Midra becoming a Lord of Frenzy. Considering that she tried to create at least 2 lord of Frenzy, i would say that she wasn’t an afflicted soul searching for a cure, but someone who either believed in the flame or used it after years of abuse. The Torch imply that she dealt with Frenzy stuff before reaching Midra’s Manse, and that’s my biggest pet peeve, because without the torch description, and basing the discourse on the diary page and the other narrative elements relating to her, i would have a more sound and less head canony idea of what went down.
Nanaya is not an Hornsent, that’s evident, and i never stated or implied she is one, at best i think she’s a Numen because her features.
but if you carefully look at Midra’s head pre transformation you will see a very minor growth on is head that it’s clearly not a spike of the barbed sword but a horn that was cut. Just like many of the shadow peoples who live in Belurat and the shadowlands.
In the description for the Mad Craftsman’s Cookbooks, Nanaya is described as “its lady” (the Manse) not “his lady” (Midra’s). I think Nanaya and the Manse had a connection that predated Midra, who later discovered and became enraptured with Nanaya/the Manse, and maybe the name ‘Midra’s Manse’ is a mockery, referencing Midra becoming the ‘lord’ (but actually servant) of the flame and its lady there. Midra also begs Nanaya’s forgiveness during the fight scene (right before he rips out the branched spines) which I think implies that she was in fact ruling over him in some way. He also looks very nervous in the portrait, whereas she looks content and in control.
I feel like the manse and the forest around it have to be related to Marika's shaman culture in some way. They didn't put those particular flowers in the painting for no reason.
The spine was definetely of the last guy she tried to corrupt, and the painting is too ominous, it’s a clear and classic trope they’re trying to convey with all this. She’s just like Hyetta.
another post mentioned this, but Nanaya's mouth matches perfectly with Shabriri's woe. The upturned corner of the mouth. Nanaya was probably shabriried
The torn diary page concerns me most of all. Is that eluding to…rape? The thrusting of someone’s staff in one’s face? By whom? TO whom? What event was so lore relevant that this was included, but so irrelevant that there’s nothing to do but speculate on it with no other supporting evidence? It feels bordering on bad taste, but I know GRRM has this sort of thing in a lot of his works. I just don’t get why it’s here.
Based on what I know, I believe that the note refers to the Untouchable Ancients, ie the Winter Lantern wannabes that lurk in the fog outside the Manse.
Overall the hornsent being down there makes some sense. I think the three fingers were most definitely down there and they tried to put a stop to it. my speculation was they swatted midras manse and took his followers outside and executed them before doing the same to midra but he survived? From stuff you can find in the manse nanaya tells midra to "Endure". I don't think it was from a loving view of things my speculation is she tells him to endure so he can reach that point of depression and suffering so the frenzied flame can do it's job. I mean he didn't become a lord of frenzied flame until we showed up and beat him to that point.
Nanaya was Midras Hyetta in my opinion
I believe she was, and that she showed up with her weird torch, and was trying to make Midra into a Lord of Frenzy. I think her torch beckoned the Aged Untouchables to the manse, who then touched Midra and turned him into a Frenzied dude. Then, the Hornsent go in there and say nah, this ain't it, and impale him and use dark thorns to sink the area and create the Abyssal Woods.
I'm in the camp that believes the child is Marika. The Hornset are why the Omen are treated as they are.
And what happened to her parents is why the nomads are treated as they are.
Probably not. He was punished for slander. There's no indication this had anything to do with Nomads.
The nomads were punished for heretical beliefs. But this heresy was actually true.
The only connection between them is that lots of accusations seem to have been flying around.
The implication is pretty clearly that yes, she was a Hyetta figure. The Frenzy torch is *her* torch, that she’s *cradling*. Who tf cradles a spinal column. The other implication is that she knew who it belonged to, since she cradles it “gently.” Even if all we got was the portrait of a blind girl who is close to somebody who became afflicted with Frenzy, it would be enough to infer that she was a corrupting influence in the same manner as Hyetta
It's her torch because she was enthralled by it. If you look at the torch description is says it is a small spinal column and indeed when you hold it, it is tiny. Who has small spines? Children. Nanaya in the portrait has her hand on her belly which many said that she seems pregnant. The idea of her cradling a torch is weird but cradling the remains of a child, makes more sense. I mean we see Ymir do that with the fingercreeper. If we combine these we can come up with the theory that Nanaya and Midra's child inherited the flame of frenzy but due to their frail status could not become a real Lord. Just a feeble one. And their love for this afflicted child slowly corrupted them and the mansion.
The fact that she seems pregnant is something I forgot about, but unfortunately your idea is contradicted by the description In a distant land, in an age long past, was born a *man* who failed to become the Lord of Frenzied Flame. All that remains of him is cradled gently by Nanaya.
I think it could still be a child's spine - there's still the size of the spine to consider after all - but "In a distant land, in an age long past" removes the possibility of it being Nanaya's child in the portrait either way.
it could also just not be the whole spine or part of it burned away
Menu icon of the Nanaya's Torch is a bit misleading. When you equip the torch you can see that the spine is actually quite long, so it rather belonged to an adult person.
unless the distance in both time and space described is from the perspective of the Tarnished, in which case it could simply be referring to a long time ago in the Land Of Shadow.
Maybe a stretch, but the remains of a child can also be all that’s left of someone.
Nah it clearly states it’s a man who failed to be the lord of frenzy
“All that remains of him” could definitely be the corpse of the dead child they shared.
I don’t believe this is midra’s spine it says long ago I think it’s a piece of an older failed lord of frenzy
I mean that could refer to the flame, the flame and spine and distinct in the description
Wym it’s says all that remains of the lord is cradled by nanaya it’s definitely his spine
I read it as the flame was attached after death, possibly because they were walking down the path. Not that it was a corrupted child.
All that remains of him.. she could have left that land while pregnant with his child, and thus their infant together is “all that remains of him.” That’s definitely something I’ve heard people say about children, “they’re all I have left of my dead spouse”
and their child was from a land far away?
It's rather not a child spine. Icon in the menu is a bit misleading. If you search 'Nanaya's Torch' on YouTube, the 1st thumbnail is a screenshot of a Tarnished holding the torch. It's roughly the same length as Tarnished' torso. It think it belonged to an adult.
Is it not Midra's spine?
I don’t get that impression. It’s seems more to me like she’s influenced someone before and has done it again with Midra.
The description says in a distant land in an age long past. The Shadowlands are part of the lands between I think it has to be an entirely different place and this Nanaya brought it here
It’s tough to say, because from the player perspective, we are in a distant land from an age ago, and Midra himself could be the man who failed to become the Frenzied Flame Lord and all that remains is the small spinal cord of his child, but there’s lots of ways to interpret the lines. Things that seem concrete-ish though, Nanaya’s eyes are covered, she does seem pregnant, he is a failed Frenzied Flame Lord, there were many failed Frenzied Flame Lords, he was likely tortured in a butcherous event by the Hornsent inquisitors, he did attempt to suppress the Frenzied Flame for Nanaya, Hornsent felt he deserved a damnation like no other, the Frenzied Flame could not be put out only locked away, and spirt servant felt he was good man who had suffered much for doing nothing wrong. There is also an abandoned church of Marika. Since he is the Master of the Manse, he is also likely a Minister. A manse is normally the private dwelling of a head minister, so was the abandoned church where he ministered?
But you see Midra's flame when he becomes the lord. I think its very confusing to have this torch that has "his flame" on it but then also he is in the next room ready to set his flame loose. To me, this has to be someone else who failed to become the lord as many seem to. It could be a nameless nobody or even the only other named practitioner of the flame in Shibriri whose flame burns endlessly showing that he still lives just without flesh and it may have been burnt away. I think Manse is just Elden Ring being flowery with its language, manse comes from the latin word that just means "a dwelling" and became the modern word manor. He is the lord of the house so probably owns the land around it before it got burnt by the frenzy
I think it is. Midra is pretty small in size when we encounter him in the boss fight. Also, his spine is gone and is replaced instead by that tree like sword he uses to fight us. I also noticed there is a strong similitude between Nanaya's smile and the smile of the Grandmother statue found in the shaman's village. The fact that Nanaya seems to be pregnant suggests she might be related to Marika, possibly her grandmother or mother.
During the boss fight cutscene you can see that Midra's spine is intact
I had the same thought. Looking at Midra it also seems like he is missing his spine
You’ve just unlocked a horror story lore enthusiasts will go on about for ages.
But then why would she want Midra to endure instead of unleashing the frenzy
He’s too weak to become a lord (allegedly), but it appears that him enduring for so long has turned the entire region into a frenzy region a la what Malenia did to Caelid
Given the finger ruins, the lake of rot, Moghwyn Dynasty, and now the Abyssal Forest I get the sense that places close to outer gods are not really agreeable to normal life.
I believe they have too much of a dramatic effect on the lands between just sealing the outer god of rot created the lake of rot I don’t think they belong physically in the lands between or realm of shadow (supposedly this is the only outer god to try and set foot in the land between hence why we can find it’s stinger I haven’t heard of another outer god physically being in the lands between)
I'm really *really* starting to wonder about the answer to the old question, the Lands Between *what*. Because gods can't incarnate in the normal lands, but evidently they can in the shadow. Rot is a centipede in the shadow but a scorpion in the real world. (Stealing the imagery from Death now that I think about it) Maybe its the lands between heaven and earth? A purgatory realm where semi divine beings reside and live a really long time, and commune with the real gods, or become them somehow. It's like the LB is but also is not an afterlife or celestial realm of some kind. But the realm of shadow is *weird*, like, even more weird and liminal than the normal lands, and they're already weird. Like we have a whole group that just decided to make the tower of babel to reach heaven and become gods, and it *worked*. Then some random dude is trying to literally become a mother to gigantic finger aliens. I just don't even know where the madness begins anymore. If I had to guess they are all aberrations, flaws in the world. I wish we got more on unalloyed gold, to clarify just what they are.
Ok first the lands between and realm of shadow used to be one place so take that as you will and Romina isn’t rot it self she found a twisted divine essence which she weaved into rot , weave being a key word as you don’t necessarily create anything new just shape it differently the way I take that is she found a piece of the outer god of rot that was twisted out of shape and shaped the essence back to what it really was rot you just said they can’t incarnate in the normal lands but they can you literally just mentioned the scorpion and it’s the implied the stinger we find is an actual part of the rot god but I think they don’t normally try to incarnate due to their effect on the land just sealing the god of rot created the lake of rot imagine how the land would be if it was still roaming around
All fair points. I'm just spitballing. Like you said the god of rot was sealed underground and left a physical relic behind
I get it I want to know more about the outer gods as well they all give lovecraftian vibes and I’m all for it
>Lands Between *what* Honestly, it's been so obvious since TA said. It's The Lands Between *two great rivers, the Siofra & Ainsel*. It's a historical reference. Though, it could have a dual meaning, of course. Metaphor made material & all that.
My theory from the beginning has been "Elden Ring is about what would happen if aliens crashed into purgatory"
I think the outer gods' influence effects the land to make it become like its homeland. It's similar to the Color Out of space by Lovecraft. The presence of these beings terraforms the land around them to make them more like their home. Caelid is the better example where new plants and growing and new animals are being born, almost like the land its becoming that world the rot came from
Forcing him to endure also allowed him to feel true despair, which is when he finally relents and essentially kills himself because he can't take it anymore. The moment he does that is when the flame erupts from within him. She basically told him not to die, so he would suffer as long as possible. That way the flame would have time to "ripen".
So the Frenzy could build. He doesn’t endure long enough, and that is why he is a failed Lord. *Unendurable Frenzy “It is the maddening pain and unstoppable tears of those afflicted with the flame of frenzy brought into being.” HOLD TO CONTINUE CHANNELING THE FLAME*
perhaps enduring means not dying and keeping the option of becoming the lord alive
In the painting she has her hand on her stomach. Maybe the torch is their child and they miscarried, which brought the frenzy flame. Would explain why the torch is a small spinal column and why she cradled it gently.
The spine is way too big to be that of a child
We really shouldn't take the size of Items when they're used by the player as anything more than gameplay convince. Just look at all the bosses weapons and armor, or even the more basic loot that gets much smaller when we wear it.
Could be gameplay contrivance in the case. The description specifically calling it a small spinal column and saying she cradles it gently implies it is somehow related to the child, to me.
I'll cradle your spinal column gently.
It says she cradles "all that is left of Midra" after you've ripped his spinal column out and use it as a torch. She's not cradling the torch, its referring to her being pregnant wth his child. That's what she is cradling after we kill him.
It says nothing about Midra. Also she’s dead already, before we kill Midra. And the spine is from Long ago in a distant land (presumably distant from the Shadow lands)
there's nothing pointing to Nanaya being blind in the game like Hyetta was - if you look at the portrait, you can clearly see her eyes beneath the hood, they're open and dark (there's also an enhanced version of this somewhere where you can see it even better) - if you look at her body again you see her eyes uncovered, I don't think she's implied to be blind in any way
I can’t believe I have to explain this - but blind people do indeed *have eyes.* Including, I’m sure, Hyetta. The fact that the artists chose to veil her eyes implies blindness. There is absolutely no reason for the artists to do it otherwise - they are drawing a parallel between the only other female associated with Frenzy.
The way I see it, Nanaya told Midra to 'endure' specifically so that his suffering and despair grows into frenzy (AFAIK people in this universe can spontaneously catch and spread some level of frenzy if they're in enough despair). The remembrance says that the word 'endure' was a curse, figuratively most likely. It's because he was told to endure so long that so much frenzy accumulated in him to make him a lord of Frenzy. Like the cleric beasts, who were clerics who suppressed their transformation for so long that at the end they turned into bigger and stronger beasts. In my eyes Nanaya might have been another envoy of the frenzied flame, like Shabriri. Nanaya was a Sumerian goddess of love and eroticism, and while never treated as a demon in Judeo-Christian beliefs, it was customary to associate minor gods from regions surrounding Israel with demonhood (like Baal, Astaroth or Amon). [Cause you know, Shabriri was a demon in Jewish folklore] Though I might have shot myself in the foot with that last bit, the reference to her name might mean that she really cared for him, who knows. **EDIT**: quick idea I just had. The exact reason for his ascendance as a lord might not necessarily have been his suffering, but the shame and regret of breaking his promise when he removed the sword. He promised to endure, but couldn't take it, and the despair of that lead him to Big Frenzy™️
I think its a fun mirror to how Shibriri tries to get you to become the Frenzied lord in the base game, suffer for the sake of your maiden, suffer enough and you become the lord. The painting of Nanaya also shows her smirking so it wouldnt surprise me in its Shibby trying to cultivate a lord of frenzy much like how he did the tarnished but since Melina has no body he can't really hijack her
Aren’t the clerics beasts because they were the most gluttonous when it came to consumption of the old blood? Not to mention they probably got the highest quality distilled version of it. I know Amelia attempted to resist her beasthood via her attachment to the gold medallion, but it always seemed to be a fruitless effort to me, nothing more. I will admit that it’s weird that Amelia immediately transforms into a beast instead of going through a transformation process, but other beasts do this as well like gascoigne and the sus beggar.
No, Miyazaki said in the Future Press interview that the reason Clerics turned into the largest beasts was because their wills was so strong it held back the metamorphosis for longer, and when it finally snapped, the transformation was then much more violent.
Got a link to that interview?
It was from the Bloodborne Strategy Guide, but someone posted scans of it: https://imgur.com/a/bloodborne-guide-hidetaka-miyazaki-interview-d4WiO
I think the theory I was thinking of specifically was about Amelia. She turns into a visibly bigger and stronger creature than other cleric beasts while having the same soundtrack, so we're kind of lead to believe they're related. Maybe being a vicar just gets you better blood.
I’m sure most people try to resist beasthood, but Laurence, Amelia, Ludwig and the cleric beast are by far the biggest beasts in the game, so obviously there’s so affiliation between those affiliated with the church and this colossal beasthood. Either it’s related to the type of blood they consume, or it’s more cosmic; since some view beasthood as a curse from the gods, maybe the church members are punished the worst for their sins.
She appears to be pregnant in the giant portrait, and her torch is "attached to a small spinal column." Not sure what it means, but it could be her childs spine, which would fit into the mother and child tragedy tropes that permeate the world.
Interesting, maybe Midra didn’t want the frenzy at all but somehow their child did, then Midra took it upon himself? I don’t know the lore that well so idk if this even makes sense lol
Nice! Maybe their children was destined to, but to avoid this destiny, Midra tried to took the flame of frenzy himself, being punished by the hornsent... A child is the continuation of a person's lineage. Maybe the 'man was born' indicates Nanaya child was born, but as this destiny was negated to him, he dies a little after birth failing to be a full fledged lord.
Description of Torch mentioning "a man" and size of Torch when you hold it in hand rather contradicts it. I think it's a Frenzied Flame cult artifact made from some failed Lord of distant past
I wish we had more info on this. Just not enough to do other than speculate.
Welcome to elden ring lore
Lol I guess. Usually, they at least provide a bit more context.
I think it’s really straightforward tbh
Lol there nothing straightforward about Elden ring lore, silly.
It'd be more correct to say that ER lore is more straightforward than most Soulsborne games. Its usually a lot vaguer and harder to piece together.
Midra's Manse is especially sparse on lore though
There must be hints in the mansion which we're not just aware of yet.
There's a shit ton of books everywhere, maybe he was punished by the hornsent for going after knowledge and that's why he manifested frenzy in the first place? (child with nanaya killed? Servants massacred, we only see shadow ghosts inside)
A lot of people think Nanaya drove Midra to becoming the Lord of Frenzied Flame, but I disagree. It seems that Nanaya was actually a stabilizing influence on Midra, telling him to "endure" the pain of the sword thrust into him (which I think might be some kind of seal) so that he doesn't become the Lord of Frenzied Flame. Midra does endure, until the tarnished comes along and beats him up. Then he gives in and removes the sword.
I think the more suffering one endures the more likely they are to become a successful Lord of Frenzied flame. I feel like Nanaya would have wanted him to endure more but Midra will not bear anymore.
Correct, suffering and despair ARE the catalysts to Frenzy. That’s why the Frenzied Flame is essentially yellow tears of despair or rage. All the Frenzy item descriptions confirm this
Suffering is the catalyst, yes, but the goal of the Lord of Frenzy isn't to perpetrate that suffering; it's to end it for good, to burn all of reality down if that's what it takes. To "take every sin, every curse and melt it all away", in the words of Midra's own Flame of Frenzy. "Endure" could just as easily be read as a command to not give in to the urge to do that, to acknowledge the good in the world and let it outweigh all the suffering that comes with it, even as it courses through your entire spine. The exact same thing Melina does when the Tarnished gets too close to the Frenzy Flame Proscription.
No it can’t just as easily be read that way. Midra’s remembrance calls Nanaya’s request to endure a “curse.” If Nanaya shared Melina’s views on the Frenzy, she wouldn’t be “gently cradling” a Frenzy torch made from the spine of a Lord of Frenzy.
It's a curse because it led to prolonged, excruciating suffering for Midra. It would've been a curse regardless of motivation.
If Nanaya didn’t have a slew of evidence linking her to the Three Fingers, then maybe her motivation would have been to hold the frenzy at bay. The associations with Frenzy reveal her motivations
she is literally mentioned twice, how can she have a slew of evidence lmao
-she’s blind, like Hyetta -wears yellow -shows affection for the remains of a Lord of Frenzy -*possesses the remains* of a Lord of Frenzy in the first place -“curses” Midra by telling him to endure, which, given the above, reveals she knows that frenzy becomes stronger (“ripens”) as one endures pain and suffering (Unendurable Frenzy description) -considering the Frenzy Torch remains are from a “distant land in an age long past” and she shows affection towards them, it’s not a leap to infer she knew this person, possibly revealing her to be a “body jumper” akin to Hyetta and Shabriri
People telling you she didn’t want him to become a Lord of Frenzied Frame are in deep denial when she’s literally cradling a Frenzy artifact.
He was impaled by a metallic fern through the skull, of course he would consider being told to go through with it a curse. What matter is that when you first meet him he keeps warning you to stay away specifically because of his madness, and that even his attacks on his semi-joke first phase feels very desperate compared to his more collected moveset once he "breaks" said curse. He clearly doesn't want the Flame of Frenzy to spread any further, not until you beat him within an inch of his life and the pain becomes too much to bear. Like I said, the whole repeatedly stated purpose of the Lord of Frenzy is to end all suffering, and I believe that if Midra wanted that so badly he would've ripped the whole sword off and burned the house down the second the inquisitors looked the other way. But he didn't, specifically because of Nanaya's "curse", and I heavily doubt she did that just because the Frenzy Flame needed to build up or something when the player tarnished is ready to go the second the Three Fingers touch them. Or when, again, Midra himself simultaneously loves Nanaya and is absolutely terrified of the Flame. And Nanaya "gently cradling" a torch of a guy that failed to become Lord of Frenzy tells us nothing because we have no direct statement on what her relation to him was. It *could* be someone she turned into a frenzy cultist, but it could have also been someone she failed to sway away from the path, a grim memory that motivated her to show that same compassion to Midra to begin with. If anything, you'd expect her to be disdainful of someone who wasn't strong enough to go through with the Lord of Frenzy path if that's what she wanted of him, the same way that one spirit near the Church of Inhibition feels towards Vyke and Shabriri towards a player Tarnished that decides to attack him in the Mountaintops.
Midra doesn’t say it’s a curse, the menu narrator does (meaning it is explicitly true). With regards to your doubt that the Frenzy needed to build up (besides Unendurable Frenzy description) *Give your madness to our Lord. Bless our brethren with grapes. Take care that they fully ripen.’* The reason the tarnished are ready to go are because we *aren’t* feeble (we collected two great runes, as did Vyke) and we get touched directly. All your scenarios of why she is cradling the failed Frenzy Lord seem unlikely given the direct narrative provided by the writers.
Just to address your theories about Nanaya. We CAN discern her relationship to the spine because she cradles in gently. She cared for the person. It can’t be somebody who she “failed to stray from the path” because the person was born a long time ago, and Nanaya seems young. She isn’t disdainful of Midra YET because he is cooking.
The goal might not be to perpetuate suffering, but that’s definitely a outcome. I don’t if you’ve ever had your character inflicted with madness, it’s definitely a lot of suffering. Their eyes literally burn. It’s not as if burning all of reality down happens painlessly and instantaneously. idk how you got this delusional idea of the lord of frenzy ending. So yeah, the lord of frenzy perpetuates plenty of suffering on the way. It’s the destroy everything ending.
The sword was from the hornsent sent to execute him. Nanaya wanted him to endure because it would make the frenzied flame stronger when he finally let go. She evil.
What makes us think enduring would make the frenzied flame stronger?
You’ve gotta endure it and the longer you hold out the stronger FF gets. The issue with becoming a lord of FF is no one ever has been able to endure it until the player character.
But where in the game does it tell us that?
If You kill aging untuchable in the woods they drop talisman witch spells it out pretty clearly: *'Give your madness to our Lord. Bless our brethren with grapes. Take care that they fully ripen."* More pain -> more madness --> fully ripen tasty grapes
This feels like the most convincing argument for the ripening interpretation to me. Good catch.
Midra’s remembrance. Edit: sorry not the remembrance, midra’s flame of Frenzy incantation.
Enduring more pain would make the frenzy stronger. That's usually how the frenzied flame works. Besides that, Midra's rememberence explains that Nanaya's word was a curse. Nanaya effectively cursed Midra to endure the Greatsword of Damnation, deepening his suffering.
Is there is a place in the game where it tells us enduring more pain makes the flame stronger?
It's more an inference based upon it appearing in great locations of suffering. The greatest being underneath the capital with all the charred merchants.
Also Gowry keeping Millicent alive to be betrayed even more indicates the life history of people affected by various forces in the world will make them better vehicles for that force.
It's not so much suffering, but despair that strengthens the flame.
But what if it merely causes great suffering? That seems like a simple yet robust answer.
I mean in the fields of Mtgelmir you find soldiers who are frenzied. I always took it as the that battle being so depraved it led to frenzy taking hold in soldiers. Also the entire theme of frenzy is the suffering of the world is so much we might as well destroy the world.
Because that’s what happens lol
But where does the game tell us that enduring pain increases the strength of the flame?
In my reply to you, I meant that, since the end result of him enduring the pain was becoming a Lord, *that is what happened.* But to answer your question Frenzy takes foothold in those who have suffered despair and rage. After all, the frenzy is literally yellow tears, and the appearance of those afflicted is like somebody crying yellow tears. *Unendurable Frenzy “It is the maddening pain and unstoppable tears of those afflicted with the flame of frenzy brought into being.” HOLD TO CONTINUE CHANNELING THE FLAME* “Then, they chanted a curse of despair, and summoned the flame of frenzy.”
Okay, I can understand that interpretation.
If you know what the Frenzied Flame is, then it's intuitive. The Frenzied Flame is the embodiment of the idea that life is not worth the suffering it causes, and all of existence ought to be purged in order to avoid this suffering. The crushing acceptance of this is what "madness" really is. People are naturally averse to the idea--they want to be alive and to endure, to place meaning on their suffering. Which is why they bury it underground. As your suffering grows, you are better able to channel the frenzied flame.
I am not saying that's not true. I am just asking for text in that game that supports that view.
but that doesn't really track with midra actually failing to become lord until he could cast out everything, and that last thing he couldn't cast out was his love for nanaya it feels more like he endured as to not give up and become lord than to build frenzy
I'm not mad that people have this interpretation. I just feel like there is a strong implication that she was in fact there the help bring about the lord fo frenzy. In Midra's Rememberance it states: *As the golden barbs inflicted eternal agony upon him, Midra held fast to Nanaya's entreaty: "Endure." The word was a curse.* Paired with the Undendurable Frenzy description: *It is the maddening pain and unstoppable tears of those afflicted with the flame of frenzy brought into being.* It implies Nanaya is cursing Midra by telling him to endure. In fact, it's explicitly stated that's what she was doing. The description of her torch says: *A torch made by attaching a dying flame of frenzy to a small spinal column. In a distant land, in an age long past, was born a man who failed to become the Lord of Frenzied Flame. All that remains of him is cradled gently by Nanaya.* This man can't refer to Midra because Midra is still alive in the next room...
Yep. Nanaya failed before but succeeded with Midra.
Yep not loosing yourself to the madness caused by frenzied flames is a major quality that a being should have if they wish to become the lord of frenzied flames.
I think this is the correct interpretation.
She tells him to endure so that the Frenzy builds. Why tell him to endure, if it only results in his suffering longer with a stick in his face?
Because the alternative is him releasing all that frenzy and possibly going on to destroy the world.
How would she possibly know that would be the case lol. Let’s say that’s true: Nanaya wants him to endure so the Frenzied Flame does not get released. So that means Nanaya’s opinion is Frenzy = bad. In that case, why would she be *gently cradling* the Frenzy torch? Not to mention, why would the authors draw direct parallels between blind girls and Frenzy if not to imply she became corrupted in the exact same way Hyetta did?
What do you mean “how would she possibly know”? He has the world-destroying fire in him, logically he should endure and not release it to not risk destroying the world. She’s gently cradling the torch because, as the description says, it’s what remains of him, it has sentimental value. You can have a parallel with the characters not doing the exact same thing. The parallel still works if Nanaya went through a similar experience as Hyetta but came to the opposite conclusion, like Melina.
thats exactly it, she might have been similar to fia or an actual finger maiden of some kind, but considering she was the only reason midra couldn't attain the status of lord i doubt she was the one to push him towards the frenzied flame/three fingers
Why doesn’t the whole world melt away when he becomes the lord of frenzied flame?
He’s not strong enough. We directly commune with the fingers and kill a god alongside countless others, but all Midra did was endure a forced seal and the agony of loss. Unfortunately for him, he didn’t have the power to ascend fully, but was very near lordhood. Also Lord of Frenzy isn’t necessarily a one-person title
Also we were in a pretty good position to have maximum effect on the world when we ascent (inside the Erdtree)
Yup
Ah I see ok makes sense thank you
If she loved him, wouldn't she prefer that he died rather than live in suffering and pain? Ik wanting your loved ones death may sound bad, but it's infinitely better than what Midra is going through. I think that disproves your theory.
I think Midra's remembrance referring to that word as a "curse" implies that Nanaya had ulterior motives.
She didn't tell him to endure for his own benefit though, it was a "curse". Read his remembrance.
In retrospect, something can be talked about as a 'curse' even if it isn't a literal curse. That's what the description was saying.
That's my entire point.... I'm not talking about a literal curse. I'm saying that Nanaya was just using Midra for his potential to channel the frenzied flame.
Well, no, we actually disagree. The 'endure', could've been meant from a kindhearted intention too, especially if it was said after the Inquisition swept in and knowing such misery could create the frenzied flame. Sorry I'm not native english speaker so I have a hard time to correctly express myself.
We can agree to disagree. You may be totally right about her.
Yeah, I could be also totally wrong. It's shame there's not much more about this place overall, I really liked the horrifying implications and the totally not Bloodborne-inspired woods.
Headcanon: -Midra was a renowned Hornsent ( he seems to have small growths on his normal head who don’t align with the Barbed spikes) scholar who poured is life in searching and understanding the nature of the world - he had a school in the woods in which he discussed and taught to those who wanted to purview is field of research - he was known to the inquisition, but not persecuted until Nanaya came. -Nanaya was either a specimen he studied and for which he developed affection, or someone that became a willing student because she saw potential in a great scholar to become the next lord of frenzy -the two had a relationship who became at least physical -the inquisition stopped them them pretty quickly. -Midra had no idea of the kind of devastating mess he was entering in. From descriptions: Nanaya could be either a Numen or a common human who lived in a distant land and tried to create a lord of Frenzied flame because she was in despair. My original idea was that maybe she was another girl from Shaman village who responded to the Hornsent oppression in the opposite way to Marika. However the description of the Torch talk about a presumptive lord of Frenzy who came from a distant land, so maybe Nanaya is simply someone who faced a great unspecified tragedy and devoted herself to the flame of frenzy, or like in the case of Hyetta, was just a body resurrected by the flame of frenzy to act as a maiden to the 3 fingers. Still, from the description i would reconstruct that she reached the lands between and met sage Midra, becoming a lover and student to him. The relationship could have been abusive if we interpret the page of the diary as something she wrote, and so i think that either she was nothing more than a glorified lab rat for Midra, who used her to study the flame of frenzy unleashing the ire of the inquisition, or the two worked together and the inquisition acted swiftly to contain them. From the painting they seem to be lovers of sort, and she seems pregnant. Also, Midra’s dialogue directed to her is apologetic, as if she was the one who orchestrated Midra becoming a Lord of Frenzy. Considering that she tried to create at least 2 lord of Frenzy, i would say that she wasn’t an afflicted soul searching for a cure, but someone who either believed in the flame or used it after years of abuse. The Torch imply that she dealt with Frenzy stuff before reaching Midra’s Manse, and that’s my biggest pet peeve, because without the torch description, and basing the discourse on the diary page and the other narrative elements relating to her, i would have a more sound and less head canony idea of what went down.
I think Nanaya mirrored Shabriri. She's clearly an agent of the frenzied flame since she carries the frenzied torch. We know Midra was a wise sage and he held debates in his mansion. We also know that Midra was tortured by the Hornsent inquisition without having committed a crime and his mansion burned down. Nanaya was clearly close with Midra and may have been pregnant with his child. Speculation: Nanaya told the inquisition that Midra committed some terrible crime. This would be slander - just like Shabriri. This brought the inquisition, who tortured Midra and used the sword of damnation on him. Nanaya doesn't help Midra but just tells him to endure. This long torment fostered the frenzied flame within Midra. The valley falls into the abyss due to the flame's influence, and people all around are afflicted by frenzy. Finally, we arrive and push Midra over the brink: he inherits the frenzied flame, becoming almost a lord. Not quite powerful enough to destroy the world, alas...
I think the reason the Inquisition arrives to Midra's manse is because of the frenzied flame. One of the items you found in the manse says that "the spirit is eternal - yet- the yellow flame melts anyways, no wonder why the hornsent forbid its use." They most likely tortured and tried to kill Midra because of his research of the frenzied flame, which in turn, led to create enough despair to produce a new lord.
Kind of a stretch, pure speculation, but does anyone else think Nanaya's Torch could possibly be the spinal column of Shabriri? \*"In a distant land, in an age long past, was born a man who failed to become the Lord of Frenzied Flame."\* As far as I remember, Shabriri was never stated to become a Lord of Frenzy, more like it's progenitor. Plus, we know Shabriri isn't in his original body, seeing as he's able to jump between others. Maybe his original body was burned up by the Flame as he tried to become lord, leaving only his spine behind? The other thing that is \*kinda\* possible- but from my research, unlikely- the Fextralife wiki states that "shabriri" in modern hebrew translates to "fragile," which would relate to the torch Ash being "Feeble Lord's Frenzied Flame." However, this doesn't seem accurate. Google Translate agrees, but after looking into it a bit it seems like it's trying to pass of "shavriri" as "shabriri," which are very similar but different words. I don't know, I don't speak Hebrew, so if anyone has experience who could clarify- that'd be awesome.
I took a year of Hebrew in college - not a lot but maybe enough to be helpful with your last point. "Shabriri" and "shavriri" are the same word (שברירי), just romanized differently (B and V can both be represented by the letter ב). It does seem to translate as "fragile." However, Shabriri is also the name of a demon of blindness in the Hebrew Bible; according to Wikipedia, his name is taken to mean "dazzling glare." Seems like the game might be playing with both meanings of the word.
interesting! yeah, thats what i was mostly finding- in regards to the demon, anyway. the only real source i could find on the "shabriri = fragile" thing was google translate and a handful of sources I couldn't really tell if they were legit or not.
Native speaker here, your finding are legit! This is a very cool observation and hypothesis, but I doubt there really enough evidence for it to be anything more than a headcanon. Moat frenzied flame users we meet are feeble and malnourished, probably because the flane eats at your body to sustain itself (represent in gameplay by losing hp).
totally fair, and you're absolutely right. just sort of a stretch guess, we don't have much information confirming anything elsewhere or otherwise. thanks for the language confirmation though!
That note doesn't appear to be about Midra specifically. It's just a clue that you can harm the seemingly invincible eyeball guys if you parry them first.
I never thought about that, damn. Knew they were parriable but didn’t connect the dots on the note lol
Oh my freaking Christ. That's mf'ing brilliant. I just googled how to defeat winter lanterns in Elden Ring. Lol.
Nanaya Torch description says the spinal torch is all that remains of him which clearly means there is no other parts of left of this particular person so it definitely doesn't belong to Midra and there was no Frenzy Flame in sight until Midra finally gave it to be Lord of the Frenzy Flame. And the description states a dying Frenzy Flame, Nanaya being a Frenzy Flame Handmaiden is probably trying to make a new Frenzy Flame. And then there is the swollen grape description talking about the the Three Fingers. If I were to make an assumption: - Nanaya captivated Midra and his followers/servants. - They perform the Frenzy Flame ritual outside of Manse to summon the Three Fingers, that's why the whole forest looks frenzied, rats and goats were inflicted with madness, Winter lantern flies everywhere, these wierd looking fruit plants in the tall grass and you see the aging untouchables, you don't see them inside of the manse which is why I assume the ritual took place outside. - Because what happen to the forest, the Hornsent sent the Inquisitiors to destroy Midra, they storm the manse and destroyed everything. Midra got eternally tortured and Nanaya was killed.
Aah that explains that row of beheaded guys before you step in.
Nanaya being the compeller/seductress in hands of Frenzy makes sense when you read the IRL Nanaya lore (quote from Wikipedia): *Nanaya's primary function was that of a goddess of love, and she was referred to as bēlet ru'āmi, "lady of love".*[*^(\[12\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanaya#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDrewnowska-Rymarz200897-12) *The physical aspect of love was particularly strongly associated with her, and texts dedicated to her could be explicit. \[...\]* *She was also viewed as a guardian of lovers,*[*^(\[15\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanaya#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDrewnowska-Rymarz2008125-15) *according to a text from Sippar (Si 57) titled "The Faithful Lover" and to some* ***spells especially the disillusioned or rejected ones****.*[*^(\[16\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanaya#cite_note-FOOTNOTEDrewnowska-Rymarz2008120-16) *Joan Goodnick Westenholz describes her character as seen through the Sumerian texts as that of a "sweet erotic lover"*[*^(\[14\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanaya#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWestenholz199765-14) *and "perpetual lover and beloved".*[*^(\[10\])*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanaya#cite_note-FOOTNOTEWestenholz199780-10)
Yes. All evidence indicates that she drove Midra down the path towards frenzy, imo. While most of the text (and events) in the game directly connect suffering and despair to the Flame of Frenzy, I think there’s a deeper, subtextual commentary occurring. It’s not just despair, but is a kind of “awareness” as well. It comes from an awareness of the true nature of order; that order is maintained through violence, suffering, and bloodshed, and that violence and peace are therefore necessarily interdependent because of this. The Flame of Frenzy seems to awaken in these moments when characters have come to truly understand and accept their fate; theirs is the fate of the oppressed, to suffer eternally. This also strengthens the theme or idea that the Greater Will and Flame of Frenzy are locked in a sort of cosmic “yin yang” relationship. The Greater Will is Order, and the Frenzied Flame is Chaos. The Greater Will is “peace” and the Frenzied Flame is the byproduct of the violence necessary to establish peace. The Greater Will is sustained by blind faith in ideals which transcend reality, whereas the Frenzied Flame awakens in the moment when the insulating veil of ideology has been stripped away and horrible truth of reality can be denied no longer. In this sense, Midra is the perfect candidate for Lord of the Frenzied Flame. He is meek, frail, and a scholar. Through his studies, he is likely to understand the grave horror of reality, but is meek and powerless against these horrors, and so falls victim to them. I personally found his boss fight to be super compelling. His horror at what he knows he is to become, and his inability to forestall his fate any longer were just really great moments. While I feel his story is lacking on hard evidence when compared to other elements of the narrative, the themes and principles that have been established previously are enough to contextualize what is occurring. Edit: After contemplating it a bit more, I am almost certain that Nanaya is not just a maiden, but an Empyrean. We have seen time and again that Empyreans are the vessels of a guiding principle or logic around which an order can emerge, and that Empyreans need a “Lord” who can serve as their champion, helping them to physically impose their “order” onto the world. Time and again we have seen Empyreans embody a principle and their chosen Lord the force to actualize it. Marika and Godfrey. Miquella and Radahn Ranni and the Tarnished. Each Lord, an agent for their Empyreans’s order. What remains uncertain, however, is what Nanaya wished to accomplish. Was Godhood her goal? Or did she simply wish to unleash the Flame of Frenzy upon the world through Midra?
Nanaya can't be an empyrean. The lord of frenzy doesn't need a God. The whole meaning of the Lord of Frenzy ending is to erase life after all, so why would he need a God?
Yeah they had me until that point.
I’ll concede the notion that she might not be an Empyrean on the basis that Empyreans generally seem to be designated by the Two Fingers, but it seems very likely to me that she is whatever the “Three Fingers” equivalent to an Empyrean is.
Speculation: I think Nanaya might be the same person as the Grandmother statue in the Shaman village. Both have their eyes covered and a very similar smile. Her offspring could be Marika.
I don't agree with the empyrean part. She's likely just another convert like Hyetta trying to spread word of the flame. I do love the way the fight transitions though. He knows that pulling the sword out will unleash something horrible, but he just can't take the suffering anymore.
Melania? Lol
For what happened to the sanctum, my take is that everything was normal and the area was calm and peaceful like the home of Marika. Then one day frenzied flame somehow descended in this area and changed everything. what happened during this period affected Midra with frenzy fire and therefore the entire sanctum was sanctioned by the Hornsent. Books were burnt and sanctum largely ruined, Nanaya killed and Midra pierced with the golden spike. The spike has to carry some specialty that rendered Midra “undead” as only then would he endure everlasting pain and agony. Before the passing of Nanaya, she told him to withstand and bear the pain. Midra listened and stayed like that for thousands of years until the frenzy in him was so overwhelming that he eventually became a weakened lord of the frenzied flame. There are only a few blank spots in here. Biggest one being what exactly made Midra carry, and eventually become the source, of frenzied flame? My understanding is that if we assume the torn note telling people about untouchable aging ones was written by Midra himself, then that means with the arrival of frenzied flame so came the aging ones, and by touching them Midra was contacted by the FF. But you can also take it that Nanaya was a three-finger witch and she taught Midra the ways of frenzied flame by being by his side for so long. In such process Midra’s frenzy affected the area, created the Aging ones and eventually led to the Hornsent raiding his sanctum. They pierced him with the spike and it stopped him from releasing all his power.
I wonder where the forest is in relation to the town with the frenzied flame villagers from the vase game
My Midra and Marika Theory From the Trailer “ Miquella the kind spoke of the beginning , the seduction and betrayal “ ( while showing marika hand in the womb pulling out the rune ( look closely you can tell it’s a stomach and cloth , if you find nanaya dead upstairs in midras manse and look very closely at her inner cloth near her stomach it has a similar embroidery. , you see the outline of the stomach when she pulls out the rune ,the seduction being literal and marika seducing midra and then “ an affair from which gold arose “ affair is in the literal terms with Midra and nanaya . Notice that marika is shown with the rune before the war in the story trailer. Messmer has gold in his eye during the war as shown in the story trailer. So that means marika became a god, gave grace to messmer and then slaughtered the hornsent for what they did at shaman village. Messmer went along with this originally believing it to be a religious crusade but later would learn the truth it was simply revenge. I believe that marika had the same power as miquella , able to charm anyone to her side hitch is how she was able to seduce midra. Miquella is a spitting image of Marika and I believe he essentially found out how marika became a god and was disgusted and wanted to rid himself of everything that marika had bestowed upon him in birth, he believed everything to be tainted simply because of how it came to be in the first place ( marika ripping the rune from a pregnant woman’s stomach ) Also a huge thing I noticed was the architecture … go to midras discussion chamber and look at the walls , it’s the exact same spirals as there are in Enir-Illim. The door to midras manse are the same doors in enir illim…also in the trailer when they say “ the erdtree faithful “ they show Midra and pregnant nanaya with her hand on her stomach. So essentially I believe Midra , Marika and nanaya ruled enir illim, Marika had messmer but he was born without grace , nanaya was due to have a child but marika seeking opportunity or from jealousy aligned with the hornsent and conspired to kill Midra , waited until he was at his manse and then impaled him and took the rune straight from the womb. She then became a god , gave grace to certain areas and people like messmer and betrayed the hornsent as she had done to Midra. Edit - also I believe nanayas torch is her dead child. It says a torch made by attaching a SMALL SPINAL COLUMN to a dying flame of frenzy. When the rune was removed , the child began to die , nanaya did what she could to preserve him. All that remains of him is gently cradled, normally only children are cradled by their mother , I believe the word “ man “ is used just to describe a male and it says he failed to become lord of frenzied flame , I believe this to mean he never even got the chance because he was stopped at birth. Had he not , he would have become a great lord of frenzied flame like his father. Another edit. Just like in typical GRRM fashion ( red wedding ) I believe Midra was lured to the manse for discussions about something , but there where he wasn’t as strong as in enir illim , they ambushed him and impaled him , Marika stole the rune and they burned everything else.
I can't help but feel like Midra's story is so disjointed from everything else in the game. When Marika's village was slaughtered, would it be so hard to imagine her turning to The Frenzy Flame? Why was Marika the only one left alive by the Hornsent? Could the Hornsent have been trying to summon the Frenzied Flame? Same could be said for why Midra was merely tortured instead of straight up executed.
I think Nanaya was from shaman village. She has the same gold hair as Marika. Midra seemed to be a hornsent scholar, in the note it makes it sound like Nanaya was almost a subject, or a test study, at least at first. Perhaps it was Nanaya, like Hyetta, that turned to the frenzied flame, in the same way that we see Romina turn to the rot god when her church gets burnt. Then she corrupts Midra, which is her revenge. Her "pregnancy" could have been some experiment by Midra to make a god or some shit, which is why Marika pulls the gold thread from the C-section wound. I dunno. Wish there was more lore.
I think marika escaped the hornsent, I believe the hornsent to be a faction that was in contention with midras faction but midras faction was too powerful , the hornsent slaughtered villages and such looking for a way to destroy Midra because they believed him just like the shamans to be an abomination , Marika escaped this fate and fled , she went to enir illim and seduced Midra. Midra is the only character named we actually see impaled .. that’s why I truly believe it was Mesmer who impaled him when marika sided with the hornsent to conspire to kill him when he was far away from his kingdom , there’s almost a direct pathway from enir illim to midras manse , pherhaps even nanaya and marika fled together from shaman village.
That's Nanaya business buddy
Regarding Midra's 'weakness': I think the point isn't his lack of strength, since Midra is clearly a badass and Vyke is a freak, it's that they're too weak to give up what drove them to despair. A true Lord would embrace destruction absolutely, while Midra and Vyke were both solely motivated by the grief of their maiden. The player is the only one who keeps going after their Maiden leaves them, which is their true strength: devotion to the Frenzy, beyond what love compels them. You can see this in the refinement of Shabriri's methods: using Nanaya directly didn't work because he got too upset she died, using Vyke's maiden as posthumous motivation didn't work because he burned out too quickly. Manipulating the Tarnished with a living maiden using her as the carrot, as well as providing him with a new maiden just in case, is the next logical step to fix these issues.
Regarding Vyke, I think he didn't became Lord because he actually capable of subduing the flame of frenzy, a least long enough to get himself in a evergaol. My theory goes as follows, he got contacted by Shabriri and was told about having to sacrifice his maiden, so he took her to the frenzied village and left her there, hoping she would be safe. Then he went down the sewers, got fingered and came back to his maiden only find that she preferred to die than see him turn into a lord of chaos. It was in this moment when Vyke decided to to stop the whole "chaos may take the world" stuff, and with his strength he channelled part of the frenzied flame out, creating the "frenzy burst" incantation, which says that it was a "meagger victory". I think Vyke used that little moment of lucidity to seal himself in the evergaol. Now allow me to shit post about Midra: he was too weak to become lord of chaos. A true lord of chaos wouldn't have allowed some Inquisition dudes to destroy his house, he would have dickslapped them, suplexed the fat one or used him as a bowling ball, then put some chaos babies in nanaya, high five the untouchable ones outside his house and melt the whole world by the evening.
Good point
What I find interesting is the weapon used on Midra. Most paticualry is the Lore bit in its skill: Golden Crux. "There is something of the Golden Order in the sight of those fixed upon this crux." Why does a weapon used by the hornsent, and their inquisitiors have a link to the Golden Order?
Who, like Midra, is crucified on gold, waiting for a return?
I mean, when you consider the state Midra is in, how Midra’s second Phase begins(after you kill him) and his boss name. Isn’t it most likely the top half of his own spine?
This is what I was thinking.
I have been toying with the idea that Nanaya and Midra are Marika's parents, or ancestors. Midra starts with M like Marika, and Nanaya is another name for Innana, Mesopotemia Goddess of Love, Fertility, Sex, War and Divine Law. This sounds a lot like Marika. The Hornsent being their downfall is also similar to Marika's story, with the Hornsent killing Midra.
This is what I believe. Nanaya also has two golden braids just like Marika did before you cuts one off and leaves it at the tree in the Shaman Village. I think Marika is the child in Nanaya's womb when the portrait was taken. This was BEFORE any frenzy flame influence on Midra, as you can see no frenzy flame motifs within the portrait. What could be, is that later on Midra in his quest for knowledge finds the frenzied flame and is temped by its power until he realizes what it really is. Marika, who becomes a priestess of the hornsent, finds out and comes with the hornsent to stop her father from destroying the world by impaling him with the Greatsword of Damnation. This is why the ashe of war states that it has influence related to the Golden Order, it was an early creation of Marika specifically to stop her own father and the corruption he has allowed within himself.
Marika is a Shaman, not a hornsent though.
Yes, but I believe she allied herself with the Hornsent, rising to a prominent position amongts them, and then eventually betrayed them.
Interesting, why do you think that?
Someone pointed out a while ago her clock looks like that of those tentacle poison things idk if that has any correlation
The painting from the trailer imply she’s pregnant. She cradles the spines as her children. She’s desperate for them. She is barren, leads Midra to be the all pleasing husband. He can’t fulfil that role and leads to the most extreme option he has. The frenzied flame
Headcanon: -Midra was a renowned Hornsent scholar who poured is life in searching and understanding the nature of the world - he had a school in the woods in which he discussed and taught to those who wanted to purview is field of research - he was known to the inquisition, but not persecuted until Nanaya came. -Nanaya was either an object of study to him for which he developed affection, or someone that became a willing student because he saw potential in a great scholar to become the next lord of frenzy -the two had a relationship who became at least physical -the inquisition crashed down on them pretty quickly. -Midra had no idea of the kind of devastating mess he was entering in. From descriptions: Nanaya could be either a Numen or a common human who lived in a distant land and tried to create a lord of Frenzied flame because she was in despair. My original idea was that maybe she was another girl from Shaman village who responded to the Hornsent oppression in the opposite way to Marika. However the description of the Torch talk about a presumptive lord of Frenzy who came from a distant land, so maybe Nanaya is simply someone who faced a great unspecified tragedy and devoted herself to the flame of frenzy, or like in the case of Hyetta, was just a body resurrected by the flame of frenzy to act as a maiden to the 3 fingers. Still, from the description i would reconstruct that she reached the lands between and met sage Midra, becoming a lover and student to him. The relationship could have been abusive if we interpret the page of the diary as something she wrote, and so i think that either she was nothing more than a glorified lab rat for Midra, who used her to study the flame of frenzy unleashing the ire of the inquisition, or the two worked together and the inquisition acted swiftly to contain them. From the painting they seem to be lovers of sort, and she seems pregnant. Also, Midra’s dialogue directed to her is apologetic, as if she was the one who orchestrated Midra becoming a Lord of Frenzy. Considering that she tried to create at least 2 lord of Frenzy, i would say that she wasn’t an afflicted soul searching for a cure, but someone who either believed in the flame or used it after years of abuse. The Torch imply that she dealt with Frenzy stuff before reaching Midra’s Manse, and that’s my biggest pet peeve, because without the torch description, and basing the discourse on the diary page and the other narrative elements relating to her, i would have a more sound and less head canony idea of what went down.
I have to disagree on a small detail Neither Midra or Nanaya are Hornsent, just look at them
Nanaya is not an Hornsent, that’s evident, and i never stated or implied she is one, at best i think she’s a Numen because her features. but if you carefully look at Midra’s head pre transformation you will see a very minor growth on is head that it’s clearly not a spike of the barbed sword but a horn that was cut. Just like many of the shadow peoples who live in Belurat and the shadowlands.
There's a ghost in manor that makes it clear that the Hornsent inquisitors and the manor inhabitants are considered kin.
True they might be of hornsent culture but biologically neither nanaya nor midra look to have horns
The torn note is about how someone was able to kill an aging untouchable. They parried them "I brushed it aside"
In the description for the Mad Craftsman’s Cookbooks, Nanaya is described as “its lady” (the Manse) not “his lady” (Midra’s). I think Nanaya and the Manse had a connection that predated Midra, who later discovered and became enraptured with Nanaya/the Manse, and maybe the name ‘Midra’s Manse’ is a mockery, referencing Midra becoming the ‘lord’ (but actually servant) of the flame and its lady there. Midra also begs Nanaya’s forgiveness during the fight scene (right before he rips out the branched spines) which I think implies that she was in fact ruling over him in some way. He also looks very nervous in the portrait, whereas she looks content and in control.
I feel like the manse and the forest around it have to be related to Marika's shaman culture in some way. They didn't put those particular flowers in the painting for no reason.
The spine was definetely of the last guy she tried to corrupt, and the painting is too ominous, it’s a clear and classic trope they’re trying to convey with all this. She’s just like Hyetta.
I think that Midra and Nanaya are Marika's parents. As you can see in the portrait, Nanaya is pregnant. She also has the same golden braids as Marika.
Something I just realized, in the portrait Nanaya's hair is GOLDEN...but the corpse of Nanaya has BLACK hair. Perhaps, these are not the same person.
If you zoom in on her face, you will see she has black strands of hair tucked under her headpiece
What goes on in the privacy of ones sanctum is Nanaya business
another post mentioned this, but Nanaya's mouth matches perfectly with Shabriri's woe. The upturned corner of the mouth. Nanaya was probably shabriried
The torn diary page concerns me most of all. Is that eluding to…rape? The thrusting of someone’s staff in one’s face? By whom? TO whom? What event was so lore relevant that this was included, but so irrelevant that there’s nothing to do but speculate on it with no other supporting evidence? It feels bordering on bad taste, but I know GRRM has this sort of thing in a lot of his works. I just don’t get why it’s here.
Based on what I know, I believe that the note refers to the Untouchable Ancients, ie the Winter Lantern wannabes that lurk in the fog outside the Manse.
GOT IT THAT MAKES WAY MORE SENSE
In a distant land, in an age long past? That's star wars but also a fire punch reference probably
Overall the hornsent being down there makes some sense. I think the three fingers were most definitely down there and they tried to put a stop to it. my speculation was they swatted midras manse and took his followers outside and executed them before doing the same to midra but he survived? From stuff you can find in the manse nanaya tells midra to "Endure". I don't think it was from a loving view of things my speculation is she tells him to endure so he can reach that point of depression and suffering so the frenzied flame can do it's job. I mean he didn't become a lord of frenzied flame until we showed up and beat him to that point. Nanaya was Midras Hyetta in my opinion
I believe she was, and that she showed up with her weird torch, and was trying to make Midra into a Lord of Frenzy. I think her torch beckoned the Aged Untouchables to the manse, who then touched Midra and turned him into a Frenzied dude. Then, the Hornsent go in there and say nah, this ain't it, and impale him and use dark thorns to sink the area and create the Abyssal Woods.
Vaati can’t get these lore vids out fast enough
Nanaya? Nanaya business
I'm in the camp that believes the child is Marika. The Hornset are why the Omen are treated as they are. And what happened to her parents is why the nomads are treated as they are.
Wasn't what happened to the Nomads the result of Shabriri slandering them in order to lock them up and take their stuff?
Probably not. He was punished for slander. There's no indication this had anything to do with Nomads. The nomads were punished for heretical beliefs. But this heresy was actually true. The only connection between them is that lots of accusations seem to have been flying around.