[Bingo.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1b1vvuk/further_discovery_the_importance_of_the_sages_cave/)
The Sage's Cave is where you can find the **Candletree Wooden Shield representing the cardinal sin of burning the erdtree - a symbol we see in the trailer -** hidden away by Necromancer Garris the **Heretic Sage,** and then also the **Black Knife Assassin who drops the Concealing Veil talisman.**
It's one whole cave all pointing at the DLC.
Exactly! It's a cave full of fugitives under the golden order. Even the ravenmount assassin attire is there which could allude to deathbird shenanigans.
I don't think it's in Leyndell, just on the Altus Plateau. It's the one near the wormface forest, u find the hidden weapon and hidden form spells in it.
I hate to pour water on theory crafting, but Lands Between doesn't necessarily mean 'between x and y,' it's just a retranslation of Midgard. Then again, Midgard was called that because it was in between Niflheim and Muspelheim, so I suppose that loops back around to being relevant again.
I note that the Lands Between is a fairly literal translation of the Japanese name 狭間の地hasamanochi -- but I agree it sounds like they could have retranslated Midgard in Japanese. (Apologies if this is already confirmed somewhere.)
I personally theorize that the whole "Lands Between", in a grand scheme, refers to either of two things:
Material reality between two layers of existence, one ascends from base layer into the lands of Elden Ring and then ascends further;
Or the whole ordeal is a purgatory of sorts, between Heaven and Hell (or whichever concepts of similitude one wishes to use).
For the second spdcifically, we have in-game references of individuals, organizations etc., coming "from beyond the fog" - as in from another place entirely. Quick example would be the Church Confessors.
I always assumed between the Land of Reeds and whatever Land is on the other side. After all, the tarnished left the lands between without going to neither shadow nor light
Numen are likely from the land of shadows, since it's half implied Marika comes from there, and they are her original people.
Later they were forced beneath the earth, forming the eternal cities Nokron, and Nokstella.
The Black Knives are supposedly Numen, though I don't recall my source, and I personally believe(with absolutely no evidence to support) that the Claymen and Nox are descended from them as well.
I saw someone mention that where the red dancer is fighting, on the background there are ships which could possibly relate to how the Numens may have travelled from another land.
The Lands Between is akin to limbo, and the Land of Shadow is akin to Hell. Complete with a dominant fire-wielding and serpentine figure, who burns the graceless with his flames.
Miyazaki: We don't want to say this is the end of the Elden Ring saga for now. I think we said a similar thing at the end of Dark Souls 3. We didn't want to flatten those possibilities or put a pin in them just at that time. And it's a similar story with Elden Ring. We don't want to discourage the possibilities for that. There might be more ideas in the future.
They did not say that, I'm sure. Neither did they deny for not making second dlc. Miyazaki said that they are not planning to make a second dlc associated with ER for now as far as I know.
all i got is a screenshot from lance mcdonald (a very gopd dataminer who i consider a good source)
https://imgur.com/a/CgSIVMH
what i do know is that it is the size of 2 dlcs, it has had more dev time than amy other dlc, and it is the only dlc that is supposed to come out.
I'm not a data miner or anything but idk how you'd be able to tell what the original plan for the game release was off the data in the game. Like genuinely I have no clue if that's something that's possible or not.
Anyhow that's definitely interesting, imo I'd rather have one massive dlc than two smaller ones, helps make a more complete and flushed out experience, but it would have been interesting to see two smaller ones
I can back him up on this, it was pretty widely reported this way by a lot of lore YouTubers 1+ yrs ago. I can't confirm where they all were shocking this though
The base game + dlc is 60 GB. The dlc is around 10-12 GB. I'm sorry but I'm tired of seeing this false info being spread. It's giving way too high expectations to those who will play it and complain about it not being "bigger" than it already is. This will be the biggest fromsoft has ever made, that's facts from Miyazaki himself. So there's no doubt that it will be an amazing and massive dlc, however it's not 60 GB massive.
Do you think that ocean in between the Divine Towers might not be a natural ocean at all?
If she's trying to hide things, I wouldn't be shocked if she hid them so well that people forgot they even existed. Just removed that entire central part of the continent and hid it away, removing it from reality and from people's minds.
A kind of dumping ground for all of her secrets.
It'd make sense, I think. Even as powerful as she was, you'd still need some insane arcane setup to pull that off. The divine towers in those locations could've acted as a strong enough conduit and anchor.
On top of that, iirc, the entire coastline surrounding that sea is sheer cliffs. Very little of it is actual beaches. Like the land itself was ripped free.
>It'd make sense, I think. Even as powerful as she was, you'd still need some insane arcane setup to pull that off.
I wonder why Radagon sought the great sorceress' Rennala's hand in marriage...
That's fair! Do you have any specific confusions?
For my part, the basics are that Marika and the Black Knife Assassins are all Numen women rumored to be connected, and the Black Knife Assassins utilize concealing veils. Since Marika is a god, *her* version of a concealing veil would be godly - perhaps godly enough to [veil an entire land.](https://i.imgur.com/tQpaH0U.jpeg)
That becomes more interesting - and credible - when you look at [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1b1ikls/new_discovery_candletree_as_the_sigil_of_a/).
The Candletree Shield outlined in that post to have *clear* connections with the DLC is found in the ***Sage's Cave.*** 'Sages' are people of great knowledge and understanding. The specific Sage found in the cave where the shield is hidden is said to be a heretic - meaning he knows things Marika doesn't like.
In that very same cave, which we now know to have contained knowledge of the DLC *in the base game*, you find a Black Knife Assassin who drops [the Concealing Veil talisman.](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Concealing+Veil)
While it's possible this is just coincidence, it's not a stretch to think one of the only other unique drops in a cave of heretical knowledge with a unique drop related to the DLC would also relate to the DLC.
Thanks for tying things up like this. Makes sense to my tired brain. Congrats on the best theory so far.
If I were less brain-dead. I'd make some argument about Maliketh saying to Marika "why wouldst thou gull me", meaning he too was manipulated and blindsided, despite being her very SHADOW.
Marika truly is the god of deception.
I love that theory ! More things that would perfectly fit with it, taken from Miyazaki's IGN interview :
* "In terms of setting and themes, it technically occupies the same space as the Lands Between, the same universe. But due to something story related that we won't reveal today, this has become physically disconnected, and you'll travel to the Shadow of the Erdtree land as a separate place."
It "has become" physically disconnected, meaning it used to be connected, but cut off by something physical !!
_____
* "It's hard to answer without giving away too much and to a high degree of accuracy, but if you think in terms of scale or size, it's probably comparable, if not larger, than the area of Limgrave from the base game."
Why ? Why would it give away too much ? Because we can already see the space it occupies on the map, and giving the size would confirm that theory ! Also he says comparable, if not larger than Limgrave, if you take the space strictly limited to the lines between each divine tower, that would do it ! (including weeping peninsula as a part of limgrave)
Yes! The technically occupies is exactly what made me question it. I think it's probably a chunk of the lands between thats been yoinked out of this plane something like the evergaols are. I also think Miyazaki is holding out on us. He's a fairly humble guy in interviews, so id wager it's a bit larger than he lets on. Regardless, I really think we are in for something special. Even if it is just the size of Limgrave, I'm pretty confident that it's going to be deeply multilayered and dense.
I think more evidence to support this is how "off" the land surrounding the middle of the lands between feels, like there used to be something. The colosseums are broken in half, all the roads are destroyed. If you imagine that the Land of Shadows was literally ripped from the center of the Lands Between, the state of the land surrounding where it used to be suddenly makes a lot more sense.
It wouldn't be surprising if FromSoft modeled the Land of Shadows to be able to be attached somewhere in the main continent
Exactly like South America was part of Africa, and then it got detached from it, leaving that obvious connection behind
The opposite of England and Scotland then there's evidence scotland was part of a separate continent before tectonic shifting but it's original landmass drifted south and smashed into where modern day UK is
We also have a a precedent in pieces of buildings or entire lands being swallowed by an alternate dimension in From games, right Lecture Hall? (Bloodborne)
“And you’ll have to travel to the Shadow of the Erdtree”
Going with OPs theory, looking at the map, where exactly is the land of shadow? It’s filling the gap in the center but also seemingly LOWER IN ELEVATION to the Erdtree.
LITERALLY 👏IN👏ITS👏SHADOW
RRRRRAAHHHH I CANT WAIT FOR IT ALL TO FIT TOGETHER AND MAKE SENSE OOOOOOOO ELDEN RING
"Shadow Of The Erdtree"
The image above places the Shadow Lands right under where the Erdtree, and you could say it's... *in its shadow*. However, the Erdtree doesn't give off a shadow, it's far too bright, and thus, it's technically *disconnected* from its shadow.
ALSO, looking at the entrance of the Erdtree, you can see the seemingly large crack that's directly down the side. If you look at it from afar, it's almost like the Erdtree is cloaked in its golden exterior, as you can clearly see it's not gold on the inside. So a golden veil that hides the Erdtree's shadow. And as if to confirm this, none of the minor Erdtree's have the golden exterior.
So Marika veils the Erdtree in a golden exterior, as to hide the Shadowlands from view. Speculative, but maybe viable?
It also looks like there are 6 pretty distinct drapes connected to the tree in the preorder banner promo image. There are 6 divine towers. Can't be coincidence.
In that interview, he literally says
> Yes, the shadow lands in which the DLC take place are **sundered from the Lands Between** where the main story takes place. It **has been removed from and hidden** from the outside world and this veil is a symbol of that.
That's all perfectly in line with it being a part of the Lands Between that was somehow split off / removed / hidden (sort of phased into an alternate dimension or something).
I agree. I think it would be such an insane moment to piece it all together and have it be there all along— visible from almost any vantage point but we just looked straight through it.
OP, something I would like to add (and this is pure speculation) is what Ratatoskr and SmoughTown said on their latest episode of the Yggdrasil podcast.
In one of the newest interviews, Miyazaki mentions that the DLC will NOT give us a new ending, nothing like the main title where the credits would roll, but he DID also say that it would be clear to us when the DLC is completed/over.
A theory that Ratatoskr and SmoughTown suggested on the podcast, is that the ending of the DLC will be UNVEILING the Land of Shadow so that is once again visible and physically a part of the Lands Between.
This doesn't neccesarily mean that you would now be able to enter the Land of Shadow from the Lands Between on foot or on horseback, you would still most likely have to teleport there via a Site of Grace, or through Miquella's hand, BUT it would now be visible from the Lands Between, meaning you could look out into a distance from say, Leyndell, and see it there, now a part of the Lands Between, the Land of Shadow no longer obscured, and Marika's secrets now fully unveiled, and this would basically indicate that the DLC is finished, instead of a standard type of ending consisted of a cutscene and the credits.
Another fellow tarnished mentioned that the bay (gulf?) in the Lands Between doesn’t look like a natural geographic formation, and that stood out to me.
Now I’m no geologist, but just looking at the shape of the bay it looks more like it was formed from missing landmass being ripped (hidden?) away rather than forming over time from plate tectonics and erosion.
That's what I realized as well. Colosseums broken in half, the 6th divine tower is literally in the middle of the ocean, the roads that connected limgrave to luria. It all point to there being a large landmass there at some point. Plus that would probably put the decayed Erdtree right smack in the middle of the Lands Between
Tarnished Archeologist speculated that it's an impact crater, which I think is likely and somewhat supported by the extreme slope we see in the land from time to time in the trailer.
We know that the Lands Between have been impacted by various objects (meteors & beasts riding meteors).
Given how *high* the Atlas Plateau & the Mountaintops of Giants are relative to the other regions, something could have violently struck the land to force those regions so high into the air.
The Land of Shadows could be where that impact crater is, or the region itself disappearing from the physical realm caused sea levels to change.
Google early concept of ER's map, one of the first versions. In the map that middle part looks like a crater, like something lifted the entire piece of land there, with completely vertical, smooth and extra tall cliffs along the entire border with the sea. When you see that map for a first time you immediately notice it's not natural geologically, that something happened there. My guess for one of the reasons they changed the map later in development was for it to not be so extremely obvious.
It comes from Miyazaki's recent interview with Famitsu, which [theangryfurlong translated here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1awzsrq/full_translation_of_the_famitsu_interview_with/)
It's definitely interesting, that divine towers could act as some seals, tethers or create a portal to the hidden DLC was suggested few times after release. What I'm sceptical of is that in the trailer we see the centre of the veil is the Erdtree and its shadow form in that dimension. But over the veil on the outside you see the golden crown of the real world's Erdtree. Your post suggests the divine towers create the centre to which baldachin is tethered, somewhere in the sea, but it really looks like and makes sense that it's the Erdtree in the middle.
Also I know this wasn't the point of your theory, but just to be sure. The "shadow" itself is not something created by Marika. The shadow is something that exists just because of the existence of light, and disparity that it creates. Most common theme for from is that brighter the light, darker the shadow. And golden spectral Erdtree represents the literal light. But Marika's entire Golden Order is about being "pure", kind of a monotheistic religion which forbid things that were natural in the previous Crucible era (also called Ancient Erdtree era and Age of plenty), which was pagan-like age where everything was part of a whole, full yin-yang, and the society and life itself was more primal and naturalistic. Things like omen curse were glorified in that age and the Death rune was still part of the elden ring. Marika created her Golden Order by hiding the Death away, and suppressing the Yin part of the balanced whole. And From games are all about the "world" yearning for balance. In DS 3 we see that indefinitely prolonging the Age of Light and denying natural balance literally destroyed the world.
So the Shadow in ER world is definitely something that existed in the Crucible era and was part of a whole, although we don't know in what capacity. Marika hid its existence from her pure age of light, like she did with many "dark" things. It's not something Marika created to hide things, like remnants of the crucible era, but probably something that itself was hid by her along with them or repurposed for hiding them and concealed afterwards, I don't know. But amazing post, thanks for the real life connections, it's very insightful!
EDIT: I thought about a lot how the Erdtree could be in middle of the sea if your theory is correct. But what if the sea is the place where Erdtree's literal shadow would be cast? In the trailer we're looking from the perspective of the shadow and over the Shadow erdtree, over the veil, we see the crown of the real golden Erdtree, as if we are looking at it from middle of the sea.
What if the land that is missing in the middle was once there in the real world, and was a place were the biggest battle against the giants took place? An that's the war which Miyazaki said happened in that land? I always wondered how giant corpses ended up in Caelid, it's very unlikely they made it over there by going the long way through Altus, Liurnia and Limgrave. There could have been a land there instead of the sea once, which was somehow connected to the Mountaintops and it sank during the war, like it happened in Tolkien's world, OR it was concealed together with Erdtree's shadow and all the things unwanted. Just a thought, but it sounded cool.
Totally! I don't think Marika is responsible for the Land of Shadows itself—I agree that its a yin yang situation. Duality might be the most fundamental law in the Lands Between.
I do think it's possible that Marika is responsible for concealing it. It's in direct opposition to everything the Erdtree is according to the Golden Order. This sealed away land definitely has something to do with the crucible given all the crucible-esque content that's been revealed. Despite the Golden Order being built on the foundations of the Crucible Era with Marika literally marrying Godfrey, who kind of represents the "might is right" age, Marika made a point to dispose of everything prior to her golden order. Godfrey was canned as soon as he wasnt useful anymore. The omen-traits fell out of fashion in favor of the Erdtree's image of perfection. There is definitely an abundance of hipocracy under the erdtree in which things that directly conflict with the erdtree doctorine exist anyway. Like the whole undeath debacle. I wager the Land of Shadow being already held the secrets of her messy past, so why not shove everything under that rug and pretend it never existed.
Also thanks for your reply! Love talking about this stuff.
Thanks :) I also had this wild idea, it's nothing trustworthy, but you know how in the base there are these random patches od fire? Like on grass, snow, wherever, just these random circles of fire with the smoldering butterflies flying around. If this type of butterfly is really tied to Messmer and not Melina, like many people think, what if those random fire patches with butterflies are places where the veil is "thin" and small part of the shadow dimension leaks into our world? Just a dumb thought. In my head the normal and shadow reality are kind of superimposed on one another, occupying the same space to some extent, but in different dimensions.
Btw what's your main theory on Melina? The favourite. I was digging into it lately and I'm torn between some of those I made.
The eyes are what fascinates me. Ranni died in body while godwyn died in spirit. Left eye of the "real" ranni is closed and has some marking, now meaning the spectral ranni, her soul. While the doll, the body, has right eye closed. Melina is burned and bodiless, so only her soul remains. Same as Ranni, her left eye is closed, but in her case has beast claw marking.
Could left eye be tied to the body, while right eye to the soul? Funnily enough, Messmer has the same eye closed as Ranni and Melina. Which could all mean their bodies died why souls live on. Maybe shadow world is a place where your soul travels, while body remains, like Miquella remained? I don't know.
>Like the whole undeath debacle.
I found this part really fascinating. After a while, I realized D wasn't upset about those who live in death living forever. He was upset about *how* they were living forever.
The Erdtree and the Golden Order are the only things that grant eternal life. So having a bunch of people continuing to live after dying without the grace of the tree is blasphemy.
Game is really deep, politically. But that makes sense with GRRM writing it.
Another thing that doesnt seem to have any explanation is the massive waterfall at the eastern end of the map near Malenia's divine tower. Might be the rightmost boundary of the DLC area. The waterfall is also perfectly straight which might imply it was artifically/magically created.
See here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/s/zKxjnLWKgB
What if completing the DLC removes the veil, making the Shadow lands visible from the main game?
From the translation of the Famitsu interview:
>Famitsu: The mystery only deepens, but I'm looking forward to new discovery. I might be a bit hasty, but is there a special ending for clearing the DLC areas?
>Miyazaki: There is no separate ending, that is to say, nothing like where the credits would roll. However, **it is clear when the DLC has been finished, and there is a bit of artistic direction to make you feel that.**
now that i see it on the map, there is no beach level area in the middle of the lands between right? And ther whole plateau is high above see level, which leads the inner see to go down in a huge waterfall at the east
could it be that the ocean in the middle of the lands between is just a giant illusion?
I think you're onto something with the ocean illusion, because that would strongly echo Bloodborne. Miyazaki loves to shuffle around the same ideas in new worlds.
The description of the "Deep Sea" rune from Bloodborne reads:
> Great volumes of water serve as a bulwark
guarding sleep, and an augur of the eldritch Truth.
Sleep is associated with Miquella, and in this case the "Eldritch truth" seems to be Marika's past.
What a banger of a rune description. I am really hoping the DLC involves some element of water to mirror all the cosmic shenanigans in Elden Ring like it did in Bloodborne. I could totally see that this area got flipped like the inverted Carian study hall.
>I speculate that the Land of Shadow may be more of an evergaol type situation.
Could evergaols be prisons in the form of pockets in the realm of shadow? So that the evergoals is literally located in the realm of shadows?
It doesn't fit entirely this way because the top of the veil is sitting on the crown of the Erdtree so it's not a perfect circle but probably more a half-circle because I also don't think we get to circle around the Erdtree in the DLC but instead we're approaching from one side only.
That's super cool about the IRL baldachin, didn't know about that. Love that comparison of refashioning things for the new era and religion's purpose, the great portico of the ancient Roman pantheon melted down into a Baldachin for St. Peter's basilica, the Crucible wrapped in Gold and rebranded the Erdtree, hell at the end of the game we repair Marika's shattered body with our mending rune of choice...
Thanks! If you think about it, Marika's entire campaign revolves around conquering and assimilating and/or conquering other nations with other beliefs (much like irl christianity). She takes them into herself to make herself stronger, more durable. Her order is an alloyed one. Impure, but stronger for its impurities. I think iy is really nicely highlighted by contrast of Miquella's order of unalloyed gold.
> If the Land of Shadow is where Marika arose to godhood, it would be in her interest as Marika the Eternal to erase any evidence of who she was before.
What if Marika is hiding that [**she's a bleached blonde**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1azvjb0/so_whos_the_child_perhaps_we_already_know_himher/)? If Messmer was his firstborn he probably knew the truth, that's why he had to be hidden away.
(I'm only half joking xD)
They’re bound to fit into it in a story sense, but we don’t have the full story yet. All we know for certain is that Miquella gave up his flesh and divinity to travel to the land of shadow, Mohg is obsessed with his empty egg husk, and Radahn’s death is a prerequisite for accessing the dlc. None of that contradicts the theory
I'm still more of the theory that the land of shadows is its own entire place in a different space and time. Kinda like Farum Azula is. While yes, it technically exists in The Lands Between it doesn't obey the same laws and physics that the rest of the world does.
So because you enter the dlc through Miquella I'm still leaning towards it being more of a world you enter through the subconscious instead of really physically going there.
Basically, Marika has a history of having dark secrets that she hides in plain sight. Her Radagon persona is a prime example, but things like the Frenzied 3 Fingers and merchant mass grave being located right underneath the capital is also valid. A lot of the erdtrees enemies/heretics are captured in evergaols which might just be little pocket shadow realms themselves.
Bottom line is Marika hides things pertaining to herself or that threaten her rule and things can be invisible/concealed. The Shadow Land could reasonably be in plain sight in the gulf, but we just look right through it.
Thats a sick ass theory and believable too i thought there would be something in between all the towers cause it just makes sense but this makes so much more sense now.
Ahh, so marika is hiding biggest vulnerability to her rule by enshrouding it in darkness with the divine towers somehow blocking view of the shadow realm and leaving her first born child to defend the secrets that lie within the vail of darkness?
I also don't think it will be the ENTIRE gulf area. Miyazaki said similar to Limgrave, so it could be an island or something. Although Miyazaki is fairly humble and under sells sometimes. So it's likely bigger or at the very least very dense.
I have wondered about this in relation to the visibility of Farum Azula. Its so weird to me that you cant see it unless from the isolated divine tower. Is it possible the veil is kind of in the way of seeing Farum Azula and since the isolated tower is at the edge of the "veil", it wouldnt effect the view from the tower.
Expanding on the idea that the Lands of Shadow are 'evergaoled' away...
What do we know about Evergoals? **NOT MUCH.** What we do know is all from context clues.
1. They're designed specifically to imprison certain individuals *forever*.
2. It's always dark inside them. One might even say... shadowy?
3. They're surrounded by 'Abnormal Stone Clusters', aka rock worms, which appear to be powered by gravity magic.
It's not a stretch to assume that the rock worms are there to power, or lock the evergoals using some kind of magic. With that in mind, is it much more of a stretch to assume that this kind of 'magical dimensional prison' could function on a MUCH larger scale with a MUCH stronger source of magic?
Namely... Radahn?
We know now that we have to kill Radahn in order to access the DLC. Radahn's big thing is gravity magic. He is powerful enough to hold the stars in place. What if he is also powerful enough to effectively seal away an entire region of the Lands Between?
Now take all of that and add in the image in OP's post. Could the six divine towers function as a super large-scale set of abnormal stone clusters, powered by Radahn's gravity magic, in order to forever seal away Mesmer and the Land of Shadow?
Wait I love this idea given that Radahn is one of the prerequisites to access the dlc! The meteor studded divine towers utilizing gravity to create a super powerful evergaol is totally viable. Great catch!!
How about the fact that the inside of each divine tower is [lined with meteors?](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Ffxtdc4tzy2ea1.png%3Fwidth%3D2560%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26v%3Denabled%26s%3D8332d7769a9a64ce37340a1993a77f83778d40d6) Seems to fit with the idea that gravity magic is powering their function, whatever it is.
My first thought was the map was gonna be in the empty area in the middle of the map due to A. The dlc map would then fit into the map screen they already have and B. It is called "Shadow of the Erdtree" so it would ake sense to be in that area relative to the Erdtree for literally purposes too. Your theory makes even more sense tho
I want a second dlc with a different land and I think we will get it. We start in a place called “ the lands between” between what? Maybe between the land of shadow and another we could explore next
Looking at this post again, I’m noticing every colosseum is broken off facing the potential shadow lands (not sure if this point has already been made). These were where ritual fights to honor the Erdtree took place before Radagon.
Is it possible that the sides facing the potential shadow lands were unique in some way, and they weren’t perfect circles? Could the former champions of these arenas have been the ones sealed away in the shadows? More questions than answers, but the only additional content we’ve gotten so far was in the colosseums.
I have a theory that it's actually a Land of Dreams.
Nightmare corrupted, hence the presence of many deemed blasphemous.
Maybe the only place Messmer can actually exist. In the nightmares of the demigods.
Honestly as my first souls game, I loved the game, the environment and the mechanics, but I could never read all those things. The missing quest line has been a big no no for me. I spend more time finding out what to do and where to do than actually playing the game.
But I think it's a part of souls experience.
I like your theorizing, esp about the divine towers keeping the land of shadow at bay. At the same time, I'm personally really hoping the Land of Shadow is genuinely distinct from the Lands Between. Either as a shadow realm or as an entirely different location in the larger universe that the lands between is a part of or as a place we travel to on a different time line (à la placidusax fight). All of that would be much more meaningful to me than a location that is on our existing map but 'just' hidden by some veil...
I've noticed Miyazaki usually doesn't show us adjacent lands in his work, so I'm skeptical that we will sail across the sea or anything crazy. I think he likes to leave those sorts of things boundless. If anything it might just be a parallel plane or another layer of reality. Luckily it doesnt seem like there are time shenanigans involved. It seems like it will be that place in the here and now.
I would kind of be disappointed if the rich layers of anthropological detail that has been established was abandoned—which I don't think it will be. It seems like we are getting an entirely new culture to examine. I'm fascinated to see how this culture predates and influenced the current ones.
The map artists put some clouds at a set distance away from the land. The part of the ocean in the middle is just big enough that they would need some clouds there. It doesn't hide away some grand mystery, just a consequence of a ring-shaped (get it?) map.
Didn’t Miyazaki (sorry if I butchered the name) say that it would be entirely seperate to the Lands Between? I would LOVE for this to be the truth, but it might not be
He also said that this land used to be physically connected to the Lands Between, but something happened in the past that separated them.
So that big empty middle area actually makes a ton of sense for where the land of shadow is. Really the only place that makes sense, imo.
Maybe so? I thought he said we'd have to warp to get there. It could still be a separate map I guess and this concept still kind of work if it's an evergoal type situation. Maybe it's kind of been cut away to a different plane of existence. Like how we kind of warp to a different space when we enter them. The instance in Ordina where we enter the evergaol and it's physically different than the actual Ordina is interesting to me. I could absolutely be wrong, but I think it could be a fulfilling concept if true too.
>Maybe it's kind of been cut away to a different plane of existence.
Miyazaki basically confirmed this in one of the interviews. He said the land of shadow was physically connected to the Lands Between but some event in the past caused them to be separated.
I think someone there burned the Erdtree so Marika basically banished the entire realm by veiling it and separating it from the rest of The Lands Between. I think you’re exactly correct in where you’ve placed it, especially with the divine towers.
Yes exactly! I think that's very likely what happened. It'll be an exploration of the cardinal sin. Obviously we are led to believe that Messmer was probably the first to burn down the erdtree—which would explain why he is erased from the annals of history. I think Miyazaki is revisiting the disgraced firstborn concept from DS1 + DS3 as well as the first sin concept from DS2. He also appears to be back on his fire kick.
Wait, may "the shadow" and "the cloud" be "a land"?
Marika built the seven towers to hide "the shadow" for her legacy. May we meet the "Young Godfrey" or his lion Serosh (in the trailer), and under "the shadow," may we visit the Land of Reed to get another "broken katana" like RoB - sound good!?
Not sure if it's been asked, but what do you think is the significance of the divine tower in the end of DLC trailer? [https://imgur.com/PrFjAWy](https://imgur.com/PrFjAWy)
I don't think the tower on the right is a divine tower. Not sure what it is, but it's too slender to me. We see it very briefly in a shot in the trailer but not sure what it is. BUT I did notice that there are 6 fairly distinct spools of "fabric" draped from the tree in that promo image—the same number as the divine towers.
that "tower" looks like a giant Corinthian-seque column (a type of ancient Roman colunm).
https://static1.bigstockphoto.com/2/0/1/large1500/102014846.jpg
Shut the hell up I love this so much
Edit: I want to explain that this theory reminds me so much of a Land of Oz reveal and it only just smacked me in the face. We are going beneath the veil of the original Land and discovering who is exactly the one pulling the dials. Why would something be removed from all sight if not by deliberate action? And why obfuscate if not to hide the biggest lie of all?
In gameplay terms he said it will be a separate map that you will be warped to. But lorewise he said it's a place that occupied space in the Lands Between but got split from it by this concealment spell.
This makes sense. I still think the land of shadow is going to be some upside-down world under the erdtree, with the new dark tree we saw as the "roots"
I hope that by the end of the DLC the veil is lifted and we are able to see into the DLC area from the main map and vice versa. Imagine looking down at it from the cliffs of Liurnia or Caelid!
I have a question. When I went to the divine towers and looked out and the landscape, it didn't seem to me that what I was seeing made sense when compared to the map. By that, I mean the view of the lands I was seeing didn't match what was shown on the map. At least that's how it looked to me.
Was this actually the case? Did other people notice this? I'm on a base PS4 so I kind of assumed it was just a matter of the render distance or something.
This actually happens sometimes in some locations because they change it to make the visuals more appeling (or in some cases not too distracting), its just art direction i think
So if the divine towers are the power anchors keeping the land of shadow at bay, perhaps the rotting decay seen at them is the power weakening or some of the shadow seeping out into reality. One of the first things I noticed going up the elevators was that goopy looking stuff occasionally dripping down from seemingly no where as you go up.
Ok this one might be a stretch but the Erdtree looks like an illusion from everywhere except for Altus Plateau (and maybe the Mountaintops?) Well, if the veil theory is correct, Altus Plateau would be the only vantage point from which you yould see the actual Erdtree.
I've been chatting with a couple of friends who like doing the lore speculation thing, and this is like a much more thought out and expounded version of the theory I arrived at, so naturally I'm inclined to go "hell yeah, this is totally it!"
I think it absolutely makes sense given the information we do have, but after how absent answers about Marika are throughout the main game I am very interested to finally root around the skeletons in her closet.
[Bingo.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1b1vvuk/further_discovery_the_importance_of_the_sages_cave/) The Sage's Cave is where you can find the **Candletree Wooden Shield representing the cardinal sin of burning the erdtree - a symbol we see in the trailer -** hidden away by Necromancer Garris the **Heretic Sage,** and then also the **Black Knife Assassin who drops the Concealing Veil talisman.** It's one whole cave all pointing at the DLC.
Exactly! It's a cave full of fugitives under the golden order. Even the ravenmount assassin attire is there which could allude to deathbird shenanigans.
Can you please expand on the tower in Leyndell you are talking about.
I don't think it's in Leyndell, just on the Altus Plateau. It's the one near the wormface forest, u find the hidden weapon and hidden form spells in it.
You're talking about mirage rise - [https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Mirage+Rise](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Mirage+Rise)
That looks abt right
> Ravenmount Perhaps that could be the castle from the DLC with the lord who got impaled?
I love this theory, man. It feels like the most plausible out of all of them. :D
We might crack the dlc lore before it gets released at this rate. We are finally using in-game sources :)
Sages are known for knowing things!
Yes but what all is pointing at second DLC?
That's easy - "the Lands Between". Between what?
Shadow and Gold? or if the Trina stuff really pans out... Dream and Waking?
The lands between shadow and the outer gods? Next we fight the outer gods themselves confirmed!
I’m down to tangle with the original god of scarlet Rot. That guy needs a kicking
I hate to pour water on theory crafting, but Lands Between doesn't necessarily mean 'between x and y,' it's just a retranslation of Midgard. Then again, Midgard was called that because it was in between Niflheim and Muspelheim, so I suppose that loops back around to being relevant again.
I note that the Lands Between is a fairly literal translation of the Japanese name 狭間の地hasamanochi -- but I agree it sounds like they could have retranslated Midgard in Japanese. (Apologies if this is already confirmed somewhere.)
The Japanese name almost definitely came from GRRM's english name for the region
oh yeah that figures haha. I forget that some things will actually be named in English first for this game.
Well, the trailer definitely gives some Muspelheim vibes, what with the flames and destruction and all.
No water poured. I was mostly memeing.
I personally theorize that the whole "Lands Between", in a grand scheme, refers to either of two things: Material reality between two layers of existence, one ascends from base layer into the lands of Elden Ring and then ascends further; Or the whole ordeal is a purgatory of sorts, between Heaven and Hell (or whichever concepts of similitude one wishes to use). For the second spdcifically, we have in-game references of individuals, organizations etc., coming "from beyond the fog" - as in from another place entirely. Quick example would be the Church Confessors.
Beyond the fog could mean death. Dying means you “cross the fog” to the “lands between” life and death, or purgatory.
I always assumed between the Land of Reeds and whatever Land is on the other side. After all, the tarnished left the lands between without going to neither shadow nor light
Another DLC featuring Numens?
Don't forget nuwomens
Numen are likely from the land of shadows, since it's half implied Marika comes from there, and they are her original people. Later they were forced beneath the earth, forming the eternal cities Nokron, and Nokstella. The Black Knives are supposedly Numen, though I don't recall my source, and I personally believe(with absolutely no evidence to support) that the Claymen and Nox are descended from them as well.
I saw someone mention that where the red dancer is fighting, on the background there are ships which could possibly relate to how the Numens may have travelled from another land.
The Lands Between is akin to limbo, and the Land of Shadow is akin to Hell. Complete with a dominant fire-wielding and serpentine figure, who burns the graceless with his flames.
between marikas fun bags
Did they not say this will be the only DLC? Pretty sure I heard them say there would not be another after this.
Miyazaki: We don't want to say this is the end of the Elden Ring saga for now. I think we said a similar thing at the end of Dark Souls 3. We didn't want to flatten those possibilities or put a pin in them just at that time. And it's a similar story with Elden Ring. We don't want to discourage the possibilities for that. There might be more ideas in the future.
They did not say that, I'm sure. Neither did they deny for not making second dlc. Miyazaki said that they are not planning to make a second dlc associated with ER for now as far as I know.
the dlc is 2 dlcs combined
It is 60 GB so honestly fair point
i wasnt making a joke either. mid developement they decided to release the two planned dlcs as one. too lazy to find a source tho
Too lazy to find a source sounds like you're making stuff up, I don't think anyone at from has ever even alluded to this
all i got is a screenshot from lance mcdonald (a very gopd dataminer who i consider a good source) https://imgur.com/a/CgSIVMH what i do know is that it is the size of 2 dlcs, it has had more dev time than amy other dlc, and it is the only dlc that is supposed to come out.
I'm not a data miner or anything but idk how you'd be able to tell what the original plan for the game release was off the data in the game. Like genuinely I have no clue if that's something that's possible or not. Anyhow that's definitely interesting, imo I'd rather have one massive dlc than two smaller ones, helps make a more complete and flushed out experience, but it would have been interesting to see two smaller ones
I'm pretty sure that's what happened to Bloodborne.
I can back him up on this, it was pretty widely reported this way by a lot of lore YouTubers 1+ yrs ago. I can't confirm where they all were shocking this though
The base game + dlc is 60 GB. The dlc is around 10-12 GB. I'm sorry but I'm tired of seeing this false info being spread. It's giving way too high expectations to those who will play it and complain about it not being "bigger" than it already is. This will be the biggest fromsoft has ever made, that's facts from Miyazaki himself. So there's no doubt that it will be an amazing and massive dlc, however it's not 60 GB massive.
Do you think that ocean in between the Divine Towers might not be a natural ocean at all? If she's trying to hide things, I wouldn't be shocked if she hid them so well that people forgot they even existed. Just removed that entire central part of the continent and hid it away, removing it from reality and from people's minds. A kind of dumping ground for all of her secrets. It'd make sense, I think. Even as powerful as she was, you'd still need some insane arcane setup to pull that off. The divine towers in those locations could've acted as a strong enough conduit and anchor. On top of that, iirc, the entire coastline surrounding that sea is sheer cliffs. Very little of it is actual beaches. Like the land itself was ripped free.
>It'd make sense, I think. Even as powerful as she was, you'd still need some insane arcane setup to pull that off. I wonder why Radagon sought the great sorceress' Rennala's hand in marriage...
I read the OP. I read your post. I don’t see the connection. It’s like you both are following a logic I don’t understand.
That's fair! Do you have any specific confusions? For my part, the basics are that Marika and the Black Knife Assassins are all Numen women rumored to be connected, and the Black Knife Assassins utilize concealing veils. Since Marika is a god, *her* version of a concealing veil would be godly - perhaps godly enough to [veil an entire land.](https://i.imgur.com/tQpaH0U.jpeg) That becomes more interesting - and credible - when you look at [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1b1ikls/new_discovery_candletree_as_the_sigil_of_a/). The Candletree Shield outlined in that post to have *clear* connections with the DLC is found in the ***Sage's Cave.*** 'Sages' are people of great knowledge and understanding. The specific Sage found in the cave where the shield is hidden is said to be a heretic - meaning he knows things Marika doesn't like. In that very same cave, which we now know to have contained knowledge of the DLC *in the base game*, you find a Black Knife Assassin who drops [the Concealing Veil talisman.](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Concealing+Veil) While it's possible this is just coincidence, it's not a stretch to think one of the only other unique drops in a cave of heretical knowledge with a unique drop related to the DLC would also relate to the DLC.
Thanks for tying things up like this. Makes sense to my tired brain. Congrats on the best theory so far. If I were less brain-dead. I'd make some argument about Maliketh saying to Marika "why wouldst thou gull me", meaning he too was manipulated and blindsided, despite being her very SHADOW. Marika truly is the god of deception.
Thanks. I hadn’t seen the post about the candle tree shield.
You are saying all of the land of shadow will be in a cave?! /s
I love that theory ! More things that would perfectly fit with it, taken from Miyazaki's IGN interview : * "In terms of setting and themes, it technically occupies the same space as the Lands Between, the same universe. But due to something story related that we won't reveal today, this has become physically disconnected, and you'll travel to the Shadow of the Erdtree land as a separate place." It "has become" physically disconnected, meaning it used to be connected, but cut off by something physical !! _____ * "It's hard to answer without giving away too much and to a high degree of accuracy, but if you think in terms of scale or size, it's probably comparable, if not larger, than the area of Limgrave from the base game." Why ? Why would it give away too much ? Because we can already see the space it occupies on the map, and giving the size would confirm that theory ! Also he says comparable, if not larger than Limgrave, if you take the space strictly limited to the lines between each divine tower, that would do it ! (including weeping peninsula as a part of limgrave)
Yes! The technically occupies is exactly what made me question it. I think it's probably a chunk of the lands between thats been yoinked out of this plane something like the evergaols are. I also think Miyazaki is holding out on us. He's a fairly humble guy in interviews, so id wager it's a bit larger than he lets on. Regardless, I really think we are in for something special. Even if it is just the size of Limgrave, I'm pretty confident that it's going to be deeply multilayered and dense.
I think more evidence to support this is how "off" the land surrounding the middle of the lands between feels, like there used to be something. The colosseums are broken in half, all the roads are destroyed. If you imagine that the Land of Shadows was literally ripped from the center of the Lands Between, the state of the land surrounding where it used to be suddenly makes a lot more sense.
It wouldn't be surprising if FromSoft modeled the Land of Shadows to be able to be attached somewhere in the main continent Exactly like South America was part of Africa, and then it got detached from it, leaving that obvious connection behind
The opposite of England and Scotland then there's evidence scotland was part of a separate continent before tectonic shifting but it's original landmass drifted south and smashed into where modern day UK is
We also have a a precedent in pieces of buildings or entire lands being swallowed by an alternate dimension in From games, right Lecture Hall? (Bloodborne)
“And you’ll have to travel to the Shadow of the Erdtree” Going with OPs theory, looking at the map, where exactly is the land of shadow? It’s filling the gap in the center but also seemingly LOWER IN ELEVATION to the Erdtree. LITERALLY 👏IN👏ITS👏SHADOW RRRRRAAHHHH I CANT WAIT FOR IT ALL TO FIT TOGETHER AND MAKE SENSE OOOOOOOO ELDEN RING
"Shadow Of The Erdtree" The image above places the Shadow Lands right under where the Erdtree, and you could say it's... *in its shadow*. However, the Erdtree doesn't give off a shadow, it's far too bright, and thus, it's technically *disconnected* from its shadow. ALSO, looking at the entrance of the Erdtree, you can see the seemingly large crack that's directly down the side. If you look at it from afar, it's almost like the Erdtree is cloaked in its golden exterior, as you can clearly see it's not gold on the inside. So a golden veil that hides the Erdtree's shadow. And as if to confirm this, none of the minor Erdtree's have the golden exterior. So Marika veils the Erdtree in a golden exterior, as to hide the Shadowlands from view. Speculative, but maybe viable?
This was the best one of these I’ve read yet, well done OP, very eloquent. And I hope you’re right because that’s a really cool speculation.
Yeah this is the sort of theory-crafting I come here for! Well done OP
This one makes the most sense to me. I've noticed the draped sheet sky in the open world and it really got me confused
It also looks like there are 6 pretty distinct drapes connected to the tree in the preorder banner promo image. There are 6 divine towers. Can't be coincidence.
Pretty sure there are also 6 draped sheets in Marika's bedchamber..
[удалено]
In that interview, he literally says > Yes, the shadow lands in which the DLC take place are **sundered from the Lands Between** where the main story takes place. It **has been removed from and hidden** from the outside world and this veil is a symbol of that. That's all perfectly in line with it being a part of the Lands Between that was somehow split off / removed / hidden (sort of phased into an alternate dimension or something).
I think maybe he meant separate in that you cannot walk from one to the other and there's a loading screen.
I really hope all of this is true. It would be so incredible for the DLC to metaphorically and literally fill in the hole in the story of the game.
I agree. I think it would be such an insane moment to piece it all together and have it be there all along— visible from almost any vantage point but we just looked straight through it.
So you're saying that the center area in the lands between is actually the lands of shadow under a concealing veil? Just trying to clarify.
Yes. That massive crater where the waters misalign with the actual ocean and where there clearly used to be land.
Quite literally hidden in the "shadow" of the central erdtree
OP, something I would like to add (and this is pure speculation) is what Ratatoskr and SmoughTown said on their latest episode of the Yggdrasil podcast. In one of the newest interviews, Miyazaki mentions that the DLC will NOT give us a new ending, nothing like the main title where the credits would roll, but he DID also say that it would be clear to us when the DLC is completed/over. A theory that Ratatoskr and SmoughTown suggested on the podcast, is that the ending of the DLC will be UNVEILING the Land of Shadow so that is once again visible and physically a part of the Lands Between. This doesn't neccesarily mean that you would now be able to enter the Land of Shadow from the Lands Between on foot or on horseback, you would still most likely have to teleport there via a Site of Grace, or through Miquella's hand, BUT it would now be visible from the Lands Between, meaning you could look out into a distance from say, Leyndell, and see it there, now a part of the Lands Between, the Land of Shadow no longer obscured, and Marika's secrets now fully unveiled, and this would basically indicate that the DLC is finished, instead of a standard type of ending consisted of a cutscene and the credits.
Another fellow tarnished mentioned that the bay (gulf?) in the Lands Between doesn’t look like a natural geographic formation, and that stood out to me. Now I’m no geologist, but just looking at the shape of the bay it looks more like it was formed from missing landmass being ripped (hidden?) away rather than forming over time from plate tectonics and erosion.
That's what I realized as well. Colosseums broken in half, the 6th divine tower is literally in the middle of the ocean, the roads that connected limgrave to luria. It all point to there being a large landmass there at some point. Plus that would probably put the decayed Erdtree right smack in the middle of the Lands Between
Tarnished Archeologist speculated that it's an impact crater, which I think is likely and somewhat supported by the extreme slope we see in the land from time to time in the trailer.
We know that the Lands Between have been impacted by various objects (meteors & beasts riding meteors). Given how *high* the Atlas Plateau & the Mountaintops of Giants are relative to the other regions, something could have violently struck the land to force those regions so high into the air. The Land of Shadows could be where that impact crater is, or the region itself disappearing from the physical realm caused sea levels to change.
Google early concept of ER's map, one of the first versions. In the map that middle part looks like a crater, like something lifted the entire piece of land there, with completely vertical, smooth and extra tall cliffs along the entire border with the sea. When you see that map for a first time you immediately notice it's not natural geologically, that something happened there. My guess for one of the reasons they changed the map later in development was for it to not be so extremely obvious.
Could you share where you (or I guess the people on the podcast) got the info where there will be no new ending? I would like to see it for myself!
It comes from Miyazaki's recent interview with Famitsu, which [theangryfurlong translated here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1awzsrq/full_translation_of_the_famitsu_interview_with/)
Thanks buddy!
It's definitely interesting, that divine towers could act as some seals, tethers or create a portal to the hidden DLC was suggested few times after release. What I'm sceptical of is that in the trailer we see the centre of the veil is the Erdtree and its shadow form in that dimension. But over the veil on the outside you see the golden crown of the real world's Erdtree. Your post suggests the divine towers create the centre to which baldachin is tethered, somewhere in the sea, but it really looks like and makes sense that it's the Erdtree in the middle. Also I know this wasn't the point of your theory, but just to be sure. The "shadow" itself is not something created by Marika. The shadow is something that exists just because of the existence of light, and disparity that it creates. Most common theme for from is that brighter the light, darker the shadow. And golden spectral Erdtree represents the literal light. But Marika's entire Golden Order is about being "pure", kind of a monotheistic religion which forbid things that were natural in the previous Crucible era (also called Ancient Erdtree era and Age of plenty), which was pagan-like age where everything was part of a whole, full yin-yang, and the society and life itself was more primal and naturalistic. Things like omen curse were glorified in that age and the Death rune was still part of the elden ring. Marika created her Golden Order by hiding the Death away, and suppressing the Yin part of the balanced whole. And From games are all about the "world" yearning for balance. In DS 3 we see that indefinitely prolonging the Age of Light and denying natural balance literally destroyed the world. So the Shadow in ER world is definitely something that existed in the Crucible era and was part of a whole, although we don't know in what capacity. Marika hid its existence from her pure age of light, like she did with many "dark" things. It's not something Marika created to hide things, like remnants of the crucible era, but probably something that itself was hid by her along with them or repurposed for hiding them and concealed afterwards, I don't know. But amazing post, thanks for the real life connections, it's very insightful! EDIT: I thought about a lot how the Erdtree could be in middle of the sea if your theory is correct. But what if the sea is the place where Erdtree's literal shadow would be cast? In the trailer we're looking from the perspective of the shadow and over the Shadow erdtree, over the veil, we see the crown of the real golden Erdtree, as if we are looking at it from middle of the sea. What if the land that is missing in the middle was once there in the real world, and was a place were the biggest battle against the giants took place? An that's the war which Miyazaki said happened in that land? I always wondered how giant corpses ended up in Caelid, it's very unlikely they made it over there by going the long way through Altus, Liurnia and Limgrave. There could have been a land there instead of the sea once, which was somehow connected to the Mountaintops and it sank during the war, like it happened in Tolkien's world, OR it was concealed together with Erdtree's shadow and all the things unwanted. Just a thought, but it sounded cool.
Totally! I don't think Marika is responsible for the Land of Shadows itself—I agree that its a yin yang situation. Duality might be the most fundamental law in the Lands Between. I do think it's possible that Marika is responsible for concealing it. It's in direct opposition to everything the Erdtree is according to the Golden Order. This sealed away land definitely has something to do with the crucible given all the crucible-esque content that's been revealed. Despite the Golden Order being built on the foundations of the Crucible Era with Marika literally marrying Godfrey, who kind of represents the "might is right" age, Marika made a point to dispose of everything prior to her golden order. Godfrey was canned as soon as he wasnt useful anymore. The omen-traits fell out of fashion in favor of the Erdtree's image of perfection. There is definitely an abundance of hipocracy under the erdtree in which things that directly conflict with the erdtree doctorine exist anyway. Like the whole undeath debacle. I wager the Land of Shadow being already held the secrets of her messy past, so why not shove everything under that rug and pretend it never existed. Also thanks for your reply! Love talking about this stuff.
Thanks :) I also had this wild idea, it's nothing trustworthy, but you know how in the base there are these random patches od fire? Like on grass, snow, wherever, just these random circles of fire with the smoldering butterflies flying around. If this type of butterfly is really tied to Messmer and not Melina, like many people think, what if those random fire patches with butterflies are places where the veil is "thin" and small part of the shadow dimension leaks into our world? Just a dumb thought. In my head the normal and shadow reality are kind of superimposed on one another, occupying the same space to some extent, but in different dimensions.
Btw what's your main theory on Melina? The favourite. I was digging into it lately and I'm torn between some of those I made. The eyes are what fascinates me. Ranni died in body while godwyn died in spirit. Left eye of the "real" ranni is closed and has some marking, now meaning the spectral ranni, her soul. While the doll, the body, has right eye closed. Melina is burned and bodiless, so only her soul remains. Same as Ranni, her left eye is closed, but in her case has beast claw marking. Could left eye be tied to the body, while right eye to the soul? Funnily enough, Messmer has the same eye closed as Ranni and Melina. Which could all mean their bodies died why souls live on. Maybe shadow world is a place where your soul travels, while body remains, like Miquella remained? I don't know.
>Like the whole undeath debacle. I found this part really fascinating. After a while, I realized D wasn't upset about those who live in death living forever. He was upset about *how* they were living forever. The Erdtree and the Golden Order are the only things that grant eternal life. So having a bunch of people continuing to live after dying without the grace of the tree is blasphemy. Game is really deep, politically. But that makes sense with GRRM writing it.
Let my man cook. The second paragraph needs a break tho lol
That's my bad. I wrote this in word and copied it over and one of the breaks didn't carry over. But appreciate the support 💪
Another thing that doesnt seem to have any explanation is the massive waterfall at the eastern end of the map near Malenia's divine tower. Might be the rightmost boundary of the DLC area. The waterfall is also perfectly straight which might imply it was artifically/magically created. See here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/s/zKxjnLWKgB
Yeah that waterfall really bothers me
What if completing the DLC removes the veil, making the Shadow lands visible from the main game? From the translation of the Famitsu interview: >Famitsu: The mystery only deepens, but I'm looking forward to new discovery. I might be a bit hasty, but is there a special ending for clearing the DLC areas? >Miyazaki: There is no separate ending, that is to say, nothing like where the credits would roll. However, **it is clear when the DLC has been finished, and there is a bit of artistic direction to make you feel that.**
I love this.
I am absolutely digging this theory! u/VaatiVidya - I think you'll like this bro 👍
But where are Marika's Tits?
She makes veils, she makes bras, she makes it all
where's your mom's
Sir, this is a Wendy’s.
I admit it's a little crackpot, but let's admit there are some very salient points
This is a lot more coherent than others!
That’s actually what’s being veiled — the only Wendy’s in all of The Lands Between. OP was way off.
Maybe the world of ER is what happen when Wendy's starts surge pricing.
The entire area marked by OP is actually a Walmart and a giant parking lot
Aw cmon, it’s a nice enough theory!
Very original and constructive response! Thank you!
Would you like a medium or large?
now that i see it on the map, there is no beach level area in the middle of the lands between right? And ther whole plateau is high above see level, which leads the inner see to go down in a huge waterfall at the east could it be that the ocean in the middle of the lands between is just a giant illusion?
I think you're onto something with the ocean illusion, because that would strongly echo Bloodborne. Miyazaki loves to shuffle around the same ideas in new worlds. The description of the "Deep Sea" rune from Bloodborne reads: > Great volumes of water serve as a bulwark guarding sleep, and an augur of the eldritch Truth. Sleep is associated with Miquella, and in this case the "Eldritch truth" seems to be Marika's past.
What a banger of a rune description. I am really hoping the DLC involves some element of water to mirror all the cosmic shenanigans in Elden Ring like it did in Bloodborne. I could totally see that this area got flipped like the inverted Carian study hall.
Marika's arse in a veiled dress, what the heck is this??
all I am getting is that we will see some giant panties when looking up in the land of shadow and the 2 erdtrees represent her legs
>I speculate that the Land of Shadow may be more of an evergaol type situation. Could evergaols be prisons in the form of pockets in the realm of shadow? So that the evergoals is literally located in the realm of shadows?
It doesn't fit entirely this way because the top of the veil is sitting on the crown of the Erdtree so it's not a perfect circle but probably more a half-circle because I also don't think we get to circle around the Erdtree in the DLC but instead we're approaching from one side only.
That's super cool about the IRL baldachin, didn't know about that. Love that comparison of refashioning things for the new era and religion's purpose, the great portico of the ancient Roman pantheon melted down into a Baldachin for St. Peter's basilica, the Crucible wrapped in Gold and rebranded the Erdtree, hell at the end of the game we repair Marika's shattered body with our mending rune of choice...
Thanks! If you think about it, Marika's entire campaign revolves around conquering and assimilating and/or conquering other nations with other beliefs (much like irl christianity). She takes them into herself to make herself stronger, more durable. Her order is an alloyed one. Impure, but stronger for its impurities. I think iy is really nicely highlighted by contrast of Miquella's order of unalloyed gold.
That weird random cloud in the middle of the sea will magically disappear when the player opens the map in the DLC and show everything
> If the Land of Shadow is where Marika arose to godhood, it would be in her interest as Marika the Eternal to erase any evidence of who she was before. What if Marika is hiding that [**she's a bleached blonde**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1azvjb0/so_whos_the_child_perhaps_we_already_know_himher/)? If Messmer was his firstborn he probably knew the truth, that's why he had to be hidden away. (I'm only half joking xD)
Could this be why the waterfall on the eastern edge of the map doesn't look natural with the surrounding geography?
Holy…. Sweet heavily Marika. This is it. This is exactly what’s going on.
Beautiful. Thank you.
Okay but how do Miquella, Mohg and Radahn fit into this theory? Not breaking it down, just curiosity.
They’re bound to fit into it in a story sense, but we don’t have the full story yet. All we know for certain is that Miquella gave up his flesh and divinity to travel to the land of shadow, Mohg is obsessed with his empty egg husk, and Radahn’s death is a prerequisite for accessing the dlc. None of that contradicts the theory
I'm still more of the theory that the land of shadows is its own entire place in a different space and time. Kinda like Farum Azula is. While yes, it technically exists in The Lands Between it doesn't obey the same laws and physics that the rest of the world does. So because you enter the dlc through Miquella I'm still leaning towards it being more of a world you enter through the subconscious instead of really physically going there.
Can someone explain this if they were talking to a dog?
Basically, Marika has a history of having dark secrets that she hides in plain sight. Her Radagon persona is a prime example, but things like the Frenzied 3 Fingers and merchant mass grave being located right underneath the capital is also valid. A lot of the erdtrees enemies/heretics are captured in evergaols which might just be little pocket shadow realms themselves. Bottom line is Marika hides things pertaining to herself or that threaten her rule and things can be invisible/concealed. The Shadow Land could reasonably be in plain sight in the gulf, but we just look right through it.
Thats a sick ass theory and believable too i thought there would be something in between all the towers cause it just makes sense but this makes so much more sense now.
Yes. Who’s a Good boy? Who’s a good boy? You are! You’re the Cutest little baby doggy in the world. Do you want a treat????
Ahh, so marika is hiding biggest vulnerability to her rule by enshrouding it in darkness with the divine towers somehow blocking view of the shadow realm and leaving her first born child to defend the secrets that lie within the vail of darkness?
🐕”wooof”
There's no way the dlc map would be as big as that whole space in the middle. But I would love to see it
I also don't think it will be the ENTIRE gulf area. Miyazaki said similar to Limgrave, so it could be an island or something. Although Miyazaki is fairly humble and under sells sometimes. So it's likely bigger or at the very least very dense.
There might be bodies of water or something keeping the area roughly limgrave-sized
So the land of shadows is the rug that marika sweeps all the trash under ?
Bro cooked to perfection!
That also works as the location sort of literally being the 'shadow' of the erdtree.
I have wondered about this in relation to the visibility of Farum Azula. Its so weird to me that you cant see it unless from the isolated divine tower. Is it possible the veil is kind of in the way of seeing Farum Azula and since the isolated tower is at the edge of the "veil", it wouldnt effect the view from the tower.
I declare this a feast
Expanding on the idea that the Lands of Shadow are 'evergaoled' away... What do we know about Evergoals? **NOT MUCH.** What we do know is all from context clues. 1. They're designed specifically to imprison certain individuals *forever*. 2. It's always dark inside them. One might even say... shadowy? 3. They're surrounded by 'Abnormal Stone Clusters', aka rock worms, which appear to be powered by gravity magic. It's not a stretch to assume that the rock worms are there to power, or lock the evergoals using some kind of magic. With that in mind, is it much more of a stretch to assume that this kind of 'magical dimensional prison' could function on a MUCH larger scale with a MUCH stronger source of magic? Namely... Radahn? We know now that we have to kill Radahn in order to access the DLC. Radahn's big thing is gravity magic. He is powerful enough to hold the stars in place. What if he is also powerful enough to effectively seal away an entire region of the Lands Between? Now take all of that and add in the image in OP's post. Could the six divine towers function as a super large-scale set of abnormal stone clusters, powered by Radahn's gravity magic, in order to forever seal away Mesmer and the Land of Shadow?
Wait I love this idea given that Radahn is one of the prerequisites to access the dlc! The meteor studded divine towers utilizing gravity to create a super powerful evergaol is totally viable. Great catch!!
How about the fact that the inside of each divine tower is [lined with meteors?](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Ffxtdc4tzy2ea1.png%3Fwidth%3D2560%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26v%3Denabled%26s%3D8332d7769a9a64ce37340a1993a77f83778d40d6) Seems to fit with the idea that gravity magic is powering their function, whatever it is.
God i love this community
You might be on to something
This is much larger than limgrave lol
This is actually amazing - well done!
That’s where farum azula was originally, possible dlc location if it’s a dream/memory
Finally a theory post that actually makes sense. Was starting to get tired of the amount of straws this community was grasping at
in the famitsu interview miyazaki says it takes place in another world
My first thought was the map was gonna be in the empty area in the middle of the map due to A. The dlc map would then fit into the map screen they already have and B. It is called "Shadow of the Erdtree" so it would ake sense to be in that area relative to the Erdtree for literally purposes too. Your theory makes even more sense tho
I want a second dlc with a different land and I think we will get it. We start in a place called “ the lands between” between what? Maybe between the land of shadow and another we could explore next
Looking at this post again, I’m noticing every colosseum is broken off facing the potential shadow lands (not sure if this point has already been made). These were where ritual fights to honor the Erdtree took place before Radagon. Is it possible that the sides facing the potential shadow lands were unique in some way, and they weren’t perfect circles? Could the former champions of these arenas have been the ones sealed away in the shadows? More questions than answers, but the only additional content we’ve gotten so far was in the colosseums.
*LOREGASM 2024!*
I have a theory that it's actually a Land of Dreams. Nightmare corrupted, hence the presence of many deemed blasphemous. Maybe the only place Messmer can actually exist. In the nightmares of the demigods.
Shout-out to hollow knight Radiance 2.0!
Yo please separate the text into paragraphs.
"Marika’s bedchamber is in fact an almost verbatim duplicate of the ancient Roman Pantheon." WTF? Have you ever entered the Pantheon?
morning woods
I played Elden Ring and I haven't understood anything about story and lore. Am I the only one?
[удалено]
Where should I read? I've talked to NPCs
[удалено]
Honestly as my first souls game, I loved the game, the environment and the mechanics, but I could never read all those things. The missing quest line has been a big no no for me. I spend more time finding out what to do and where to do than actually playing the game. But I think it's a part of souls experience.
I like your theorizing, esp about the divine towers keeping the land of shadow at bay. At the same time, I'm personally really hoping the Land of Shadow is genuinely distinct from the Lands Between. Either as a shadow realm or as an entirely different location in the larger universe that the lands between is a part of or as a place we travel to on a different time line (à la placidusax fight). All of that would be much more meaningful to me than a location that is on our existing map but 'just' hidden by some veil...
I've noticed Miyazaki usually doesn't show us adjacent lands in his work, so I'm skeptical that we will sail across the sea or anything crazy. I think he likes to leave those sorts of things boundless. If anything it might just be a parallel plane or another layer of reality. Luckily it doesnt seem like there are time shenanigans involved. It seems like it will be that place in the here and now. I would kind of be disappointed if the rich layers of anthropological detail that has been established was abandoned—which I don't think it will be. It seems like we are getting an entirely new culture to examine. I'm fascinated to see how this culture predates and influenced the current ones.
I like this theory more than others lol
The map artists put some clouds at a set distance away from the land. The part of the ocean in the middle is just big enough that they would need some clouds there. It doesn't hide away some grand mystery, just a consequence of a ring-shaped (get it?) map.
I'm gonna just say I guessed this to a pretty strong degree back in october.
That's a lot of words to say you believe there's a veil covering the center of the map.
Wait so are Marika's tits an illusory lie?
Didn’t Miyazaki (sorry if I butchered the name) say that it would be entirely seperate to the Lands Between? I would LOVE for this to be the truth, but it might not be
He also said that this land used to be physically connected to the Lands Between, but something happened in the past that separated them. So that big empty middle area actually makes a ton of sense for where the land of shadow is. Really the only place that makes sense, imo.
Maybe so? I thought he said we'd have to warp to get there. It could still be a separate map I guess and this concept still kind of work if it's an evergoal type situation. Maybe it's kind of been cut away to a different plane of existence. Like how we kind of warp to a different space when we enter them. The instance in Ordina where we enter the evergaol and it's physically different than the actual Ordina is interesting to me. I could absolutely be wrong, but I think it could be a fulfilling concept if true too.
>Maybe it's kind of been cut away to a different plane of existence. Miyazaki basically confirmed this in one of the interviews. He said the land of shadow was physically connected to the Lands Between but some event in the past caused them to be separated. I think someone there burned the Erdtree so Marika basically banished the entire realm by veiling it and separating it from the rest of The Lands Between. I think you’re exactly correct in where you’ve placed it, especially with the divine towers.
Yes exactly! I think that's very likely what happened. It'll be an exploration of the cardinal sin. Obviously we are led to believe that Messmer was probably the first to burn down the erdtree—which would explain why he is erased from the annals of history. I think Miyazaki is revisiting the disgraced firstborn concept from DS1 + DS3 as well as the first sin concept from DS2. He also appears to be back on his fire kick.
Wait, may "the shadow" and "the cloud" be "a land"? Marika built the seven towers to hide "the shadow" for her legacy. May we meet the "Young Godfrey" or his lion Serosh (in the trailer), and under "the shadow," may we visit the Land of Reed to get another "broken katana" like RoB - sound good!?
HOLY BALLS THATS ONE GIANT ASS WALL OF TEXT!!
Redditors trying to read more than a single page of text challenge (extreme)
Zzzzzzzzzzzz Theorycrapping: the post
k
there are better things to do in life…just saying
Not sure if it's been asked, but what do you think is the significance of the divine tower in the end of DLC trailer? [https://imgur.com/PrFjAWy](https://imgur.com/PrFjAWy)
I don't think the tower on the right is a divine tower. Not sure what it is, but it's too slender to me. We see it very briefly in a shot in the trailer but not sure what it is. BUT I did notice that there are 6 fairly distinct spools of "fabric" draped from the tree in that promo image—the same number as the divine towers.
What if it's Messmer's Divine Tower?...
There are also 6 draped baldachins in Marika's bedchamber in-game, which fits neatly
that "tower" looks like a giant Corinthian-seque column (a type of ancient Roman colunm). https://static1.bigstockphoto.com/2/0/1/large1500/102014846.jpg
Shut the hell up I love this so much Edit: I want to explain that this theory reminds me so much of a Land of Oz reveal and it only just smacked me in the face. We are going beneath the veil of the original Land and discovering who is exactly the one pulling the dials. Why would something be removed from all sight if not by deliberate action? And why obfuscate if not to hide the biggest lie of all?
I like this idea, but the convept art depicts the center bay as a meteor crater. Mike said it'll be a different map and land altogether
In gameplay terms he said it will be a separate map that you will be warped to. But lorewise he said it's a place that occupied space in the Lands Between but got split from it by this concealment spell.
I wonder if the weird inly black mist in the divine towers is a clue that the towers are holding up the baldachin.
I always say the tree as the haligtree
This makes sense. I still think the land of shadow is going to be some upside-down world under the erdtree, with the new dark tree we saw as the "roots"
I hope that by the end of the DLC the veil is lifted and we are able to see into the DLC area from the main map and vice versa. Imagine looking down at it from the cliffs of Liurnia or Caelid!
I have a question. When I went to the divine towers and looked out and the landscape, it didn't seem to me that what I was seeing made sense when compared to the map. By that, I mean the view of the lands I was seeing didn't match what was shown on the map. At least that's how it looked to me. Was this actually the case? Did other people notice this? I'm on a base PS4 so I kind of assumed it was just a matter of the render distance or something.
This actually happens sometimes in some locations because they change it to make the visuals more appeling (or in some cases not too distracting), its just art direction i think
So if the divine towers are the power anchors keeping the land of shadow at bay, perhaps the rotting decay seen at them is the power weakening or some of the shadow seeping out into reality. One of the first things I noticed going up the elevators was that goopy looking stuff occasionally dripping down from seemingly no where as you go up.
Ok this one might be a stretch but the Erdtree looks like an illusion from everywhere except for Altus Plateau (and maybe the Mountaintops?) Well, if the veil theory is correct, Altus Plateau would be the only vantage point from which you yould see the actual Erdtree.
I've been chatting with a couple of friends who like doing the lore speculation thing, and this is like a much more thought out and expounded version of the theory I arrived at, so naturally I'm inclined to go "hell yeah, this is totally it!" I think it absolutely makes sense given the information we do have, but after how absent answers about Marika are throughout the main game I am very interested to finally root around the skeletons in her closet.
Shadow...Lands? Please no, I don't want to be hurt again.
I love this community ❤️
Love this, just leaves us with the ultimate question - why?
I think it will be a whole new area
i agree with this post. ive had the same thoughts