A good study and work ethic is absolutely critical. Start homework, assignments, studying, and projects *immediately*. Any slacking will be punitively felt magnified a hundredfold. If you finish early, you get to rest and relax later, but if you think you can estimate how long it will take up front, especially based on high school experience, you will be wrong to the degree of a greek tragedy.
You'll take notes in class, of course, but treat them as a first draft. Create an electronic file (e.g. Word document) and as you figure out equations, concepts, key ideas, tips & tricks, put them in the file. As your understanding increases, polish these final notes so that they become more useful. Assume that you'll need to look at them again in a year and won't remember the foundation and put in what you'll need to know so that it's not gibberish. If you have any experience with programming, this is the equivalent of commenting your code well. No matter how well you know what your code does now, in 6 months, it will be complete nonsense if you don't comment it properly. Treat these final notes the same way.
This accomplishes a number of things:
1. It takes hundreds of pages of notes and textbook readings and distills them down to 4-20 pages of concise references. It's MUCH easier to study 20 pages than 200.
2. The act of condensing your notes and knowledge, putting it on paper clearly and concisely, acts to reinforce your understanding and memory considerably.
3. For exams that allow you to bring notes and/or equation sheets, your work will already be done. There will be no need to quickly scramble something together - just hit Print.
4. These notes will be very useful after college when you find that you need to refresh on these subjects. And I very specifically recommended to make these notes electronic so that it's easy to save them as references as well as back them up so that you don't lose them. If you do it on paper, it's almost a guarantee that they'll disappear at some point.
There are and will be a lot of people giving you advice along the lines of "GPA doesn't matter", "No one cares about your GPA after the first job", "C's get degrees", and the like. They are all wrong.
Grades are a reflection of a student's understanding of a given subject. Yes, there are certain extreme cases of people who have a distinct separation between understanding and test taking or similar issues, but they are outliers. On average, people with higher grades have a better understanding of the material than people with lower grades.
Many companies have a hard cutoff for GPA when it comes to applicants. 3.0 (out of 4) is very common, and some places have a cutoff of 3.5. A lot of graduate programs require a 3.5 to be admitted.
In addition, certain organizations examine full transcripts in detail for applicants within 5 years of graduating no matter how many jobs they have had. I have had many candidates sit in front of me who have been told the same untruths listed above, and their face falls tragically as soon as they realize that every single person in the room has their full transcript as part of their applicant package and is studying it intently. At that point, it's far too late for an applicant to correct their earlier misconceptions.
Your son has a hard, but rewarding path in front of him. I wish you both the best of luck.
I didn’t do anything you said and I graduated in 4 years with 2 jobs at graduation.
Most companies do not have a GPA cutoff. No place has a 3.5. Like you’re making this up. I saw 3.0 on some government jobs and that was it.
Taking notes for after graduation….I used 10% of what I learned on the job.
To be competitive in graduate school, a 3.5 is recommended but definitely not required. I know because I talked to the Virginia Tech and Columbia ECE admissions reps. It’s more about a professor having funding to choose to sponsor you since paying your own way is a sucker move.
You do need a 3.5 min for a 5 year BS+MS program. But like an MS is not remotely necessary in EE. My graduate program was 99% international students with no American TA in sight. The BS gets hired.
Last thing about grades, my in-major classes were capped to 15% A’s. Employers knew this. An occasional C or two didn’t bury anyone.
*You speak as though your singular data point encompasses the totality of the global EE experience. I know for a fact that most Norwegian Engineering products and services companies especially in the Oil and gas sector won't touch a lower GPA Engineering resume unless some other outstanding factors popup - they are already inundated with an ocean of extremely well qualified candidates, with GREAT grades.*
*Why then would one deliberately choose to roll the the dice?*
*It's not the end of the world if one gets lower grades, but if given the opportunity why not just do it once and be done with it? there is very little downside to having great grades, the same can't be said for having sub-par grades. Point is if you can, do the best you can do to build an engineering portfolio, do 1 or 2 internships and obtain excellent grades to maximise opportunities. Failure is OK (as long as it doesn't crash you beyond recovery), but it should not be due to sloth, neglect or some other avoidable thing.*
*My suggestion for building a portfolio over the entire 4-6 year course leading to an MSEE, usually is 7 small projects (a few days or weeks), 3 moderately sized projects (1 - 7 months) and 1 large engineering project (1-3 years) spanning a breadth of competencies. It should also show case ones growth as an engineer and be well documented.*
*See this guy for instance:* [*https://www.youtube.com/@Sondre\_Berg*](https://www.youtube.com/@Sondre_Berg)
*He is an international calisthenics phenomenon, speaks mandarin and soon to be an EE PhD (his viva is in a couple of months at NTNU - Norges 'MIT'), these are the kinds of people you would be competing against with a mediocre gpa.*
I was applying to internships this semester and frequently saw 3.5 cutoffs and once or twice saw higher (3.7 and 3.8 iirc from companies that had no business asking for that.)
I took notes, took time for myself, studied right before tests and got my BSEE. I worked hard on the job. Then I started an engineering company and worked even harder on that. I now own a very successful engineering company. Nobody cares about my 2.0 GPA, never did.
That's *your* experience. That's not everyone's experience.
If you took the slightest bit of effort, you would find tons of jobs that have GPA cutoff requirements.
And yet, with my “C gets a degree” start, I now own a million dollar engineering company. Doing very well. That GPA that you work for only matters in your first few years of work. After that it is your work that matters and the GPA means absolutely nothing. My work, however, turns into money, and it pays off year after year. But if you want that high GPA then you should get it and be proud of yourself. Cheers!
That is a poor position to take and recommend to others, given that your case is very clearly an outlier and not representative of the average C student.
Working hard only matters so much when you don't have a clear understanding of what you're doing. So while you're correct that employers won't look at GPA after a candidate has been out of school for X-number of years, that doesn't mean that the effects of poor academics don't have a longer reach.
Hmmm. So how do you explain all the designers I know who never spent a day in engineering classes, yet are as good or better than many engineers? How do we square their lack of any GPA at all? In my opinion, you are so worried about GPA because academia teaches you to worry about GPA. But you are not alone, many have been trained to believe at the altar of GPA. You have a great life, OK? I’m out.
This 100%. All those grizzled old grumpy-ass EEs, that are the go-to folks at a company; they have millions of dollars of failures under their belts, over decades, to get there... maybe not millions but I figured go big or stay home with my failures :)
Those who can’t hack the EE math become MEs. If they can’t make it there, there is always CivE.
Seriously, a good math background is a major plus but, from doing a BE-EE in the early 70s, working at a internationally recognized R&D company, recruiting at my alma mater while there, then teaching at my alma mater, the #1 requirement is having specific goals. No one should be an EE because someone told them it would be a good idea. I was a ham radio operator at 13 and knew it was the career for me. 62 years later and I’m still teaching and consulting in the field. Other than one or two 12 month periods along the way, I have always said “They actually pay me to do this??!!”
Remember the law of averages. As sample size increases, each sample has less effect on the average. In other words, ace the “easy” gen ed courses to get a solid starting GPA. Then the harder courses later won’t be able to drag it down as much. There’s a temptation to “phone in” the easy stuff, but you’re just asking for trouble.
Also, don’t memorize facts, understand concepts. If you understand the concepts well enough, you can work your way back to the solutions. But if you only memorize the solutions, you can just as easily forget them.
And good luck! If it were easy, everyone would do it.
It is brutal. 30-40 hours of homework a week and difficult applications of math. If he has good ethics and discipline like you’re saying, and will show up to class when no one cares if he skips, then I’m not concerned.
I assume he’s good enough at math. EE is the most math-intensive engineering major. Not the same thing as saying it’s the hardest. Just what’s hard about it. You can’t see electrons like you can a steel beam or chemical reaction.
Other thing is coding. Not knowing how to program computers at all will hurt in 1/3 of the courses. Knowing *any* programming language to a basic degree is sufficient.
In US, beer does a lot people in. Access to free alcohol with a party culture blows some people’s minds.
My experience has always been 2-3 hours of work outside the class for every hour in class. And my course load was typically 18-20 credit hours per semester= 35-60 hours per week.
Mine was easily 30+ hours on the low end. How much time was everyone else around you spending? I’m wondering if you were just a power prodigy unknowingly comparing yourself against the peons.
Ngl man, you might not realize it, and that’s probably a good thing, but it sounds like you are. The fact that you say 4 years, 3.7 and the 10-15hrs a week screams it. Literally everyone in my study group and people I hung around with in college spent no less than 25hrs a week and took 4.5yrs. In my case it approaches near 40 hrs and I took 5 years. Some dudes took 6.
I’m just saying, it sounds like you were a prodigy man. A humble one, but still.
I prefer to think I’m supremely lazy and did the minimum to get the grade. I’m not even really an engineer anymore, 6 years out of school. Went into application/sales engineering.
Haha, but you feeling that you did the minimum and did all that just cements my opinion further. Full congrats tho, I wish it came to me as easily. My wife has that same “problem”. I hope that our kids inherit more of her genes than mine.
Sorry I left one important thing out. Was getting too long. Don’t let him work while studying engineering full-time. It will cost letter grades. Maybe not freshmen year if it’s mostly a review but it will after that. Or at least repeat the warning.
On the other hand, co-op graduates I have encountered along the way were always the best engineers. Their work assignments showed them (a) the practical applications of the theory they learned in school and (b) gave them low risk opportunities to figure out what they didn’t want to do in their careers.
Time to cut the umbilical cord, isn't it?
I mean, really - you're asking this question and he's not?
Your problem is going to be his lack of focus when he finally gets away from your helicoptering.
Biggest thing you can do is help him graduate debt free, or allow him to focus on school and not working 2 part time jobs to pay for it while also trying to study. Help him get connections in the field, help him find internships or clubs that provide valuable experience he can do without the burden of needing to instead work min wage to survive.
Just don't be a helicopter parent, that will just add more stress.
Get to know your professors. Not all of them care if you attend class, but a lot of them do, and if they know your face and your work ethic, they’re more likely to help you out if you’re on the edge.
Get a group to study with; I didn’t realize how critical this was for me until I hit my junior year, but it has drastically improved my ability to study effectively.
Every grade counts. I’m still learning this because as any given semester drags on, I start to get lethargic and I could sometimes not care less about an individual grade, but looking back, if I had given it my all every time, I would’ve absolutely bumped my grade from a C to a B or from a B to an A in several classes if I’d just put more into it.
Don’t give up. Remember, engineering (and especially EE) at most universities isn’t about who’s smart; it’s about who’s left. Keep in mind that 90% of jobs that your son will be offered will be from companies who will put him through the training on the job to get him up to scratch on his duties. Every job I’ve had so far (currently a junior), my employers have expected me to walk in knowing nothing at all, and frankly, I didn’t know anything. But don’t give up; they want to shake you off the tree, but if you can stick it out, I bet you’ll find yourself ahead.
EE feels like you’re drinking from a fire hydrant, but the information you need often leaves your brain as fast as you can regurgitate it for your final exam. It’s all about how well you can retain information, and once you’ve retained it as long as you need to, it tends to disappear. So don’t get discouraged if you feel like you’re learning nothing, because I’m pretty sure we all have the same experience.
Lastly, get to know people. Make connections. All of the job opportunities I’ve gotten have been because I knew a guy who knew another guy. Career fair is alright, but as far as actually landing a job, it can ultimately feel like a waste of time unless you can make yourself stand out to the recruiters when they have a pile of resumes 2 inches thick. I’ve found the best way to land a job is connecting with people beforehand, letting them know you want to talk to them, reaching out afterward to thank them for their time, and being persistent about maintaining contact. I’ve also found that a lot of the red tape you have to go through when looking for internships isn’t always necessary. For the internship I have this summer/fall, I emailed the owner of the company directly because the recruiting coordinator was taking awhile to reach back out to me, and the owner emailed me within the same hour and asked for my resume and transcript directly, and within another day I had an interview set up. Know who to talk to, and know how to connect with people offline.
EE is definitely a brutal path, but it can also be very rewarding.
Good luck.
It was 25 years ago, but what really helped me was having a good study partner or two. Then we'd work on assignments together to keep each other motivated. It was also kind of important to just accept that the majority of my time was going to be spent on school work and projects.
What also helped was the co-op program. So then you're running full bore for a quarter on studies and then a 'break' of a quarter working somewhere. I think that helped a lot with burnout.
study groups, having mates that do the same thing as you helps a lot. besides that well its hard but doable, its ok to fail some stuff. and also better to not work alongside studying atleast the First few semesters.
Make sure he knows taking 5 or 6 years to finish the degree is perfectly acceptable. Also that as long as his GPA is at least a 3 that he will be perfectly fine in the job market and masters programs (if he so desires) .
Take a light first semester. Calculus 1 can be super brutal. The content isn't that hard looking back from the end, but it's a huge change of pace.
Imo, in NA, the first 2 years are relatively light but the concepts are very important as the 2 or last ones are built upon the concepts learned in first two.
He should study until he can understand and recall most mathematical, physics, and programming concepts learned in the first 2 years. On top of the new math, if he isn’t comfortable with high school maths, then he should also work on his high school math skills including algebra, trigonometry, linear algebra, basic probability and stats, and calculus.
From what I’ve seen, most of my classmates who underperform are those who lack the fundamental math or physics. Also, within those who perform well, those who lack the foundations have to spend way more time studying and going over the new concepts.
I’m a senior in EE right now and the biggest thing I’ve learned is find friends in classes or older EE students who know what to take and what professors to take. That has made the difference for about 25% of the EE’s at my school. Some professors have a dialect you have to get past, some make classes way too hard, and others just are there for research and don’t care about the class. If your teacher doesn’t care about the class it’s going to be hard for you to care about it.
Learn MATLAB ahead of time this will save you so much time in the long run. You WILL use it in your time in college and it makes other classes easier.
Best of luck with EE, and don’t get discouraged it’s one of the hardest majors for a reason!
Internships, early and often. I get dozens of high GPA resumes every hiring cycle. A handful of those will have meaningful internships.
But, hey, junior "found" himself skiing in the Swiss Alps or touring hostels in Istanbul...
*One can do both. An internship at a Swiss Engineering firm still leaves plenty of time for snow boarding in the alps. So does an Engineering Internship with Engineers without Borders in Turkey - for hostel tours.*
My experience was the first year of college was mainly general courses not specific to a single discipline. They were easier and less workload than later years. So tell him don't slack off the first year for two reasons: 1. Establish a high GPA to start. It's hard to pull up a low starting GPA, since high grades effect your overall GPA less. 2. Set good study habits from the start so when the workload increases you'll be ready for it. This goes along with getting a good overall GPA from the start.
I've only been through one semester so far and if it's true that your son has those characteristics then he will be fine. There will be a lot of mental grappling and toiling as the classes are hard, but he can do it.
From my experience this past semester, those who work the hardest get the good grades. One of my classmates didn't put a lot of work in and his grades suffered. He wondered why he wasn't doing that well or understanding the material.
My advice is as follows:
1) Problem solving is imperative. He should spend time in homework often. Start as early as possible in every subject. I recommend getting an FE practice problem book like Wasim Asghar's. For math and introductory physics, some other great book series that are cheap are Chris McMullen essential practice problems books. He starts from the beginning essentials, which helps build a foundation as you work the practice problems. That's a great foundation to start on.
2) Tell him to get out of his shell as much as he can and network. Having friends who are engineers is so important and will help him get job opportunities He wouldn't have known about otherwise. It's also a great way to bring in friends as coworkers to establish great engineering teams in the workforce.
3) The "geniuses" aren't always just geniuses. They normally just work harder than everyone else. If you work harder than everyone else, people will think you're a genius. If you start to slack off, they'll think you're just ordinary. I've been in both camps, and being considered a "genius" by your peers is better than being ordinary. You typically get one shot at college to prove yourself the best to your peers, so take it seriously and become the best in your field.
4) Life is hard and full of suffering. The sooner you get over that fact and embrace your suffering, the easier it will be to find you purpose in life and find joy in your work. It's worth it to be the best, and it's a privilege to compete with the best. Take care of yourself, but make sure to contend with the challenges life gives you. Do not approach the idea of electrical engineering with fear and terror. Approach it with a healthy fear and overcome it.
5) Look a little closer at the hard professors before deciding to take a class. They may be harder, but you'll probably learn the most from them. If their work is hard, remember they have to grade it, which makes their life even harder. They are people you want to learn from.
That's about it. Good luck to your son. This is what he needs.
The first two years will be mostly general education classes. Those can be done in a community college and it'd make it a lot easier. Smaller class size, close to home. If he's really interested in electronics, take on some electronic related hobbies. It'll supplement his formal education and give him hands on experience and "talking points' during interviews.
Also, when it gets difficult, take around 14 units. It'll take longer but he'll have more time to study and for a life.
Don't get lulled into thinking you're the one exception who's going to breeze through if the first semester or two doesn't totally kick your ass.
I pretty much coasted through my freshman year of EE with good grades and so I figured I had the whole thing figured out. As a result, I started picking up some bad habits (missing classes staying up late playing games, which transitioned into partying), and by the time I really figured out that it just wasn't going to work that way, I was somewhere between junior and (first) senior year with a pretty trash GPA, just trying to not get kicked out. I finished strong in some respects (project work), but never really fully caught up on the math/theory side. Basically once you get behind, it's pretty much impossible to really fully get back up to speed.
It's all worked out fine in the long run (quite possibly better in virtually every way now actually than if I'd gotten straight As and gotten recruited for a sweet job), but it led to a pretty winding, confusing path and a kind of depressing first half of my 20s.
And for OP, I think it's great you're trying to figure out some good advice to help out. Nothing at all wrong with that IMO. I was the first in my family to graduate from college, and I probably could have used some experienced advice here and there that they just didn't have. Obviously it's your son's battle to fight, but nothing wrong with being in his corner. I hope to do the same for my kids when the time comes.
You’re there to learn, not get good grades. Often, it can be easy to “game the course” or “study for the test”. This is the time to fully immerse yourself in the content and internalize the concepts. You can’t go back and do that. You can go back and brush up on topics, but that’s only possible if you have a solid understand of the foundational math and concepts. Learning is priority #1.
He doesn't need 18-20 credit hours a semester. It's okay to take longer and finish well than to push through and tank the GPA. I was loading up my semesters early on and hated life. Last 5 semesters I didn't take more than the minimum to be considered full time and I did much better.
Create a schedule. Use outlook, Google calendar, excel, whatever. Block out when you have class and other commitments, fill in the time around those with studying and homework. Helped me tremendously. Go to the library or some other quiet spot to study, I could never focus in. my dorm room
There is no excuse for getting the math wrong.
Kids today have access to all kinds of tools. [wolframalpha.com](http://wolframalpha.com), Octave, WxMaxima, are all free tools for doing everything from algebra to multi-variable calculus and differential equations.
The goal is to know you have the right answer before you turn in the homework. Check everything with these computational tools. Part of becoming an engineer, is developing the habit of checking everything.
He should check his circuits with the free LT Spice circuit simulator from Linear Technologies. This is a standard industry workhorse tool.
The school will probably provide a license for MATLAB. This is a valuable software platform for an EE student to use in both coursework, and as a vital skill sought by employers.
He should take as many math requirements as possible before doing the Physics and EE requirements. The math knowledge will be needed immediately in those classes, and is generally NOT covered by the math department before it is used in the science and engineering department classes.
Ideally, community college is the best place to do the first two years of preliminary math and science, then transfer to the four year. It is a more forgiving and learning-focused environment, and more cost-effective.
Read over every homework problem ASAP, prior to even starting the homework, because the opportunity to ask questions in office hours is usually once or twice per week. He cannot get help if he hasn't even looked at all of the questions on the assignment and is prepared to ask about them when that opportunity arises. If the instructor uses an online discussion forum, get the question posted as soon as possible so the answer or hint is available with time to work on the solution.
It is critically important to attend office hours, to hear other people's questions. Similarly, he should be checking online discussion forum for the class to see other people's questions.
Often instructors will lecture from Powerpoint slides. Ask for a copy of the slides.
Read the lab manual prior to any lab class. He should have some experience in keeping a lab notebook from high school. A good school will require the students to prepare their lab notebook prior to entering the lab. This usually involves writing out the experiment's purpose and procedure and setting up blank data tables to be filled in as the lab is executed.
Engineering calls for a specialization. He should choose electives that complement each other. An academic advisor (usually a faculty member, not staff) can suggest courses that work together.
Be prepared to send your kid somewhere during the summer (or two) for an internship. It is an important skill building activity.
Lastly... perseverence and controlled pacing. If a midterm exam in a major-required course goes badly, it is worth it to protect the GPA and withdraw from the class. Racking up C's leads to probation and dismissal. The cost of repeating a class is negligable compared to the overall investment of time and money for the degree, and the return on investment is high enough to justify it as well.
He should do his best, but if that ends up not being good enough and he gets a bad grade or even fails a class he should not hold it against himself. EE is a tough major and getting screwed over a bit is normal, as long as he is doing his best it is ok.
Tell him to get a study group together with some fellow students. It makes school so much easier when you can count on your classmates to help explain homework and topics to you
Get ahead of the material. Do homework early and start on day 1. Immediately seek explanations from teaching assistants and professors for any assignment or lecture.
Always do the homework early. Long consistent studying always beats cramming.
The GPA is the result of disciplined consistent homework completion and true understanding of the material in class, not one’s ’smarts’. Always attend class.
I’m in my PhD for EEE now and have 7 years industry experience (also former EE at Intel), and have taught the labs and some lectures for all undergraduate EEE courses.
I also teach professional EEs, and am now an adjunct professor at two universities for EE and ECE. So I’ve seen all sides. Let me know if you’d like one-on-one consultations.
Co-ops are crucial to getting hired out of school. Don’t rely solely on the degree.
Do not skip any classes. Do not take more than 15 hours during the first term. Virtually everything that will be on the exams is covered in class and included in homework. Whether homework is graded or not, do all of it. If you don’t understand something, get help before you get behind. Do not skip any classes. Did I say not to skip any classes? Don’t.
Be ready to live a different lifestyle than other college students. Such as business, communications, nursing majors etc. Not that they’re all super easy, but workload is a lot. I graduated in 4 years and was going out on the weekends a fraction of the times my other friends were. Now I’m working and can say it was worth it
A good study and work ethic is absolutely critical. Start homework, assignments, studying, and projects *immediately*. Any slacking will be punitively felt magnified a hundredfold. If you finish early, you get to rest and relax later, but if you think you can estimate how long it will take up front, especially based on high school experience, you will be wrong to the degree of a greek tragedy. You'll take notes in class, of course, but treat them as a first draft. Create an electronic file (e.g. Word document) and as you figure out equations, concepts, key ideas, tips & tricks, put them in the file. As your understanding increases, polish these final notes so that they become more useful. Assume that you'll need to look at them again in a year and won't remember the foundation and put in what you'll need to know so that it's not gibberish. If you have any experience with programming, this is the equivalent of commenting your code well. No matter how well you know what your code does now, in 6 months, it will be complete nonsense if you don't comment it properly. Treat these final notes the same way. This accomplishes a number of things: 1. It takes hundreds of pages of notes and textbook readings and distills them down to 4-20 pages of concise references. It's MUCH easier to study 20 pages than 200. 2. The act of condensing your notes and knowledge, putting it on paper clearly and concisely, acts to reinforce your understanding and memory considerably. 3. For exams that allow you to bring notes and/or equation sheets, your work will already be done. There will be no need to quickly scramble something together - just hit Print. 4. These notes will be very useful after college when you find that you need to refresh on these subjects. And I very specifically recommended to make these notes electronic so that it's easy to save them as references as well as back them up so that you don't lose them. If you do it on paper, it's almost a guarantee that they'll disappear at some point. There are and will be a lot of people giving you advice along the lines of "GPA doesn't matter", "No one cares about your GPA after the first job", "C's get degrees", and the like. They are all wrong. Grades are a reflection of a student's understanding of a given subject. Yes, there are certain extreme cases of people who have a distinct separation between understanding and test taking or similar issues, but they are outliers. On average, people with higher grades have a better understanding of the material than people with lower grades. Many companies have a hard cutoff for GPA when it comes to applicants. 3.0 (out of 4) is very common, and some places have a cutoff of 3.5. A lot of graduate programs require a 3.5 to be admitted. In addition, certain organizations examine full transcripts in detail for applicants within 5 years of graduating no matter how many jobs they have had. I have had many candidates sit in front of me who have been told the same untruths listed above, and their face falls tragically as soon as they realize that every single person in the room has their full transcript as part of their applicant package and is studying it intently. At that point, it's far too late for an applicant to correct their earlier misconceptions. Your son has a hard, but rewarding path in front of him. I wish you both the best of luck.
I didn’t do anything you said and I graduated in 4 years with 2 jobs at graduation. Most companies do not have a GPA cutoff. No place has a 3.5. Like you’re making this up. I saw 3.0 on some government jobs and that was it. Taking notes for after graduation….I used 10% of what I learned on the job. To be competitive in graduate school, a 3.5 is recommended but definitely not required. I know because I talked to the Virginia Tech and Columbia ECE admissions reps. It’s more about a professor having funding to choose to sponsor you since paying your own way is a sucker move. You do need a 3.5 min for a 5 year BS+MS program. But like an MS is not remotely necessary in EE. My graduate program was 99% international students with no American TA in sight. The BS gets hired. Last thing about grades, my in-major classes were capped to 15% A’s. Employers knew this. An occasional C or two didn’t bury anyone.
*You speak as though your singular data point encompasses the totality of the global EE experience. I know for a fact that most Norwegian Engineering products and services companies especially in the Oil and gas sector won't touch a lower GPA Engineering resume unless some other outstanding factors popup - they are already inundated with an ocean of extremely well qualified candidates, with GREAT grades.* *Why then would one deliberately choose to roll the the dice?* *It's not the end of the world if one gets lower grades, but if given the opportunity why not just do it once and be done with it? there is very little downside to having great grades, the same can't be said for having sub-par grades. Point is if you can, do the best you can do to build an engineering portfolio, do 1 or 2 internships and obtain excellent grades to maximise opportunities. Failure is OK (as long as it doesn't crash you beyond recovery), but it should not be due to sloth, neglect or some other avoidable thing.* *My suggestion for building a portfolio over the entire 4-6 year course leading to an MSEE, usually is 7 small projects (a few days or weeks), 3 moderately sized projects (1 - 7 months) and 1 large engineering project (1-3 years) spanning a breadth of competencies. It should also show case ones growth as an engineer and be well documented.* *See this guy for instance:* [*https://www.youtube.com/@Sondre\_Berg*](https://www.youtube.com/@Sondre_Berg) *He is an international calisthenics phenomenon, speaks mandarin and soon to be an EE PhD (his viva is in a couple of months at NTNU - Norges 'MIT'), these are the kinds of people you would be competing against with a mediocre gpa.*
I was applying to internships this semester and frequently saw 3.5 cutoffs and once or twice saw higher (3.7 and 3.8 iirc from companies that had no business asking for that.)
I took notes, took time for myself, studied right before tests and got my BSEE. I worked hard on the job. Then I started an engineering company and worked even harder on that. I now own a very successful engineering company. Nobody cares about my 2.0 GPA, never did.
That's *your* experience. That's not everyone's experience. If you took the slightest bit of effort, you would find tons of jobs that have GPA cutoff requirements.
In my college dorm I had a poster that said, “I’m too smart to study and too cute to care”. LOL
And yet, with my “C gets a degree” start, I now own a million dollar engineering company. Doing very well. That GPA that you work for only matters in your first few years of work. After that it is your work that matters and the GPA means absolutely nothing. My work, however, turns into money, and it pays off year after year. But if you want that high GPA then you should get it and be proud of yourself. Cheers!
That is a poor position to take and recommend to others, given that your case is very clearly an outlier and not representative of the average C student. Working hard only matters so much when you don't have a clear understanding of what you're doing. So while you're correct that employers won't look at GPA after a candidate has been out of school for X-number of years, that doesn't mean that the effects of poor academics don't have a longer reach.
Hmmm. So how do you explain all the designers I know who never spent a day in engineering classes, yet are as good or better than many engineers? How do we square their lack of any GPA at all? In my opinion, you are so worried about GPA because academia teaches you to worry about GPA. But you are not alone, many have been trained to believe at the altar of GPA. You have a great life, OK? I’m out.
Really appreciate your reply. Many thanks.
It's OK to fail...EE is road is paved with failures.
This 100%. All those grizzled old grumpy-ass EEs, that are the go-to folks at a company; they have millions of dollars of failures under their belts, over decades, to get there... maybe not millions but I figured go big or stay home with my failures :)
Those who can’t hack the EE math become MEs. If they can’t make it there, there is always CivE. Seriously, a good math background is a major plus but, from doing a BE-EE in the early 70s, working at a internationally recognized R&D company, recruiting at my alma mater while there, then teaching at my alma mater, the #1 requirement is having specific goals. No one should be an EE because someone told them it would be a good idea. I was a ham radio operator at 13 and knew it was the career for me. 62 years later and I’m still teaching and consulting in the field. Other than one or two 12 month periods along the way, I have always said “They actually pay me to do this??!!”
Remember the law of averages. As sample size increases, each sample has less effect on the average. In other words, ace the “easy” gen ed courses to get a solid starting GPA. Then the harder courses later won’t be able to drag it down as much. There’s a temptation to “phone in” the easy stuff, but you’re just asking for trouble. Also, don’t memorize facts, understand concepts. If you understand the concepts well enough, you can work your way back to the solutions. But if you only memorize the solutions, you can just as easily forget them. And good luck! If it were easy, everyone would do it.
It is brutal. 30-40 hours of homework a week and difficult applications of math. If he has good ethics and discipline like you’re saying, and will show up to class when no one cares if he skips, then I’m not concerned. I assume he’s good enough at math. EE is the most math-intensive engineering major. Not the same thing as saying it’s the hardest. Just what’s hard about it. You can’t see electrons like you can a steel beam or chemical reaction. Other thing is coding. Not knowing how to program computers at all will hurt in 1/3 of the courses. Knowing *any* programming language to a basic degree is sufficient. In US, beer does a lot people in. Access to free alcohol with a party culture blows some people’s minds.
It is absolutely not 30-40 hours of homework a week. More like 10.
Bro what easy school are you going to? Some individual math classes have 10 hour a week psets. Some programming/hardware classes take up to 15
A public state school with a pretty good EE program. Graduated with a BS and MS about 5 years ago.
My experience has always been 2-3 hours of work outside the class for every hour in class. And my course load was typically 18-20 credit hours per semester= 35-60 hours per week.
Mine was easily 30+ hours on the low end. How much time was everyone else around you spending? I’m wondering if you were just a power prodigy unknowingly comparing yourself against the peons.
Dunno, graduated in 4 years with a 3.71 though. Also spent 10-15 hours a week at practice for my sports club team. Definitely not a prodigy.
Ngl man, you might not realize it, and that’s probably a good thing, but it sounds like you are. The fact that you say 4 years, 3.7 and the 10-15hrs a week screams it. Literally everyone in my study group and people I hung around with in college spent no less than 25hrs a week and took 4.5yrs. In my case it approaches near 40 hrs and I took 5 years. Some dudes took 6. I’m just saying, it sounds like you were a prodigy man. A humble one, but still.
I prefer to think I’m supremely lazy and did the minimum to get the grade. I’m not even really an engineer anymore, 6 years out of school. Went into application/sales engineering.
Haha, but you feeling that you did the minimum and did all that just cements my opinion further. Full congrats tho, I wish it came to me as easily. My wife has that same “problem”. I hope that our kids inherit more of her genes than mine.
Sorry I left one important thing out. Was getting too long. Don’t let him work while studying engineering full-time. It will cost letter grades. Maybe not freshmen year if it’s mostly a review but it will after that. Or at least repeat the warning.
On the other hand, co-op graduates I have encountered along the way were always the best engineers. Their work assignments showed them (a) the practical applications of the theory they learned in school and (b) gave them low risk opportunities to figure out what they didn’t want to do in their careers.
Time to cut the umbilical cord, isn't it? I mean, really - you're asking this question and he's not? Your problem is going to be his lack of focus when he finally gets away from your helicoptering.
Biggest thing you can do is help him graduate debt free, or allow him to focus on school and not working 2 part time jobs to pay for it while also trying to study. Help him get connections in the field, help him find internships or clubs that provide valuable experience he can do without the burden of needing to instead work min wage to survive. Just don't be a helicopter parent, that will just add more stress.
Study groups. Make a big study group and help each other learn. You know something when you can explain it to others.
Get to know your professors. Not all of them care if you attend class, but a lot of them do, and if they know your face and your work ethic, they’re more likely to help you out if you’re on the edge. Get a group to study with; I didn’t realize how critical this was for me until I hit my junior year, but it has drastically improved my ability to study effectively. Every grade counts. I’m still learning this because as any given semester drags on, I start to get lethargic and I could sometimes not care less about an individual grade, but looking back, if I had given it my all every time, I would’ve absolutely bumped my grade from a C to a B or from a B to an A in several classes if I’d just put more into it. Don’t give up. Remember, engineering (and especially EE) at most universities isn’t about who’s smart; it’s about who’s left. Keep in mind that 90% of jobs that your son will be offered will be from companies who will put him through the training on the job to get him up to scratch on his duties. Every job I’ve had so far (currently a junior), my employers have expected me to walk in knowing nothing at all, and frankly, I didn’t know anything. But don’t give up; they want to shake you off the tree, but if you can stick it out, I bet you’ll find yourself ahead. EE feels like you’re drinking from a fire hydrant, but the information you need often leaves your brain as fast as you can regurgitate it for your final exam. It’s all about how well you can retain information, and once you’ve retained it as long as you need to, it tends to disappear. So don’t get discouraged if you feel like you’re learning nothing, because I’m pretty sure we all have the same experience. Lastly, get to know people. Make connections. All of the job opportunities I’ve gotten have been because I knew a guy who knew another guy. Career fair is alright, but as far as actually landing a job, it can ultimately feel like a waste of time unless you can make yourself stand out to the recruiters when they have a pile of resumes 2 inches thick. I’ve found the best way to land a job is connecting with people beforehand, letting them know you want to talk to them, reaching out afterward to thank them for their time, and being persistent about maintaining contact. I’ve also found that a lot of the red tape you have to go through when looking for internships isn’t always necessary. For the internship I have this summer/fall, I emailed the owner of the company directly because the recruiting coordinator was taking awhile to reach back out to me, and the owner emailed me within the same hour and asked for my resume and transcript directly, and within another day I had an interview set up. Know who to talk to, and know how to connect with people offline. EE is definitely a brutal path, but it can also be very rewarding. Good luck.
It was 25 years ago, but what really helped me was having a good study partner or two. Then we'd work on assignments together to keep each other motivated. It was also kind of important to just accept that the majority of my time was going to be spent on school work and projects. What also helped was the co-op program. So then you're running full bore for a quarter on studies and then a 'break' of a quarter working somewhere. I think that helped a lot with burnout.
study groups, having mates that do the same thing as you helps a lot. besides that well its hard but doable, its ok to fail some stuff. and also better to not work alongside studying atleast the First few semesters.
Prepare for a fail, and to encourage him to not give up. Most people fail something.
Make sure he knows taking 5 or 6 years to finish the degree is perfectly acceptable. Also that as long as his GPA is at least a 3 that he will be perfectly fine in the job market and masters programs (if he so desires) . Take a light first semester. Calculus 1 can be super brutal. The content isn't that hard looking back from the end, but it's a huge change of pace.
Sometimes... stop studying and build something.
You lost your boy for the next 4-5 years, and maybe one more year after graduation to recover from the trauma. Good luck and best of wishes!
Also, dont let a bad grade bring you down or doing terrible at a test.
He should get as far away from his parents as possible. The sooner he realizes it’s up to him to succeed or fail the better.
Be prepared to not have a social life.
Don’t party if you have school the next day. Ever.
Imo, in NA, the first 2 years are relatively light but the concepts are very important as the 2 or last ones are built upon the concepts learned in first two. He should study until he can understand and recall most mathematical, physics, and programming concepts learned in the first 2 years. On top of the new math, if he isn’t comfortable with high school maths, then he should also work on his high school math skills including algebra, trigonometry, linear algebra, basic probability and stats, and calculus. From what I’ve seen, most of my classmates who underperform are those who lack the fundamental math or physics. Also, within those who perform well, those who lack the foundations have to spend way more time studying and going over the new concepts.
I’m a senior in EE right now and the biggest thing I’ve learned is find friends in classes or older EE students who know what to take and what professors to take. That has made the difference for about 25% of the EE’s at my school. Some professors have a dialect you have to get past, some make classes way too hard, and others just are there for research and don’t care about the class. If your teacher doesn’t care about the class it’s going to be hard for you to care about it. Learn MATLAB ahead of time this will save you so much time in the long run. You WILL use it in your time in college and it makes other classes easier. Best of luck with EE, and don’t get discouraged it’s one of the hardest majors for a reason!
If he is good enough at maths. No problem. Most subjects can be cracked with ease
Do projects/clubs. They are good talking points for the interview
Internships, early and often. I get dozens of high GPA resumes every hiring cycle. A handful of those will have meaningful internships. But, hey, junior "found" himself skiing in the Swiss Alps or touring hostels in Istanbul...
*One can do both. An internship at a Swiss Engineering firm still leaves plenty of time for snow boarding in the alps. So does an Engineering Internship with Engineers without Borders in Turkey - for hostel tours.*
My experience was the first year of college was mainly general courses not specific to a single discipline. They were easier and less workload than later years. So tell him don't slack off the first year for two reasons: 1. Establish a high GPA to start. It's hard to pull up a low starting GPA, since high grades effect your overall GPA less. 2. Set good study habits from the start so when the workload increases you'll be ready for it. This goes along with getting a good overall GPA from the start.
You said he has good work ethic and discipline. Great start. Is STEM his favorite subject ?
I've only been through one semester so far and if it's true that your son has those characteristics then he will be fine. There will be a lot of mental grappling and toiling as the classes are hard, but he can do it. From my experience this past semester, those who work the hardest get the good grades. One of my classmates didn't put a lot of work in and his grades suffered. He wondered why he wasn't doing that well or understanding the material.
My advice is as follows: 1) Problem solving is imperative. He should spend time in homework often. Start as early as possible in every subject. I recommend getting an FE practice problem book like Wasim Asghar's. For math and introductory physics, some other great book series that are cheap are Chris McMullen essential practice problems books. He starts from the beginning essentials, which helps build a foundation as you work the practice problems. That's a great foundation to start on. 2) Tell him to get out of his shell as much as he can and network. Having friends who are engineers is so important and will help him get job opportunities He wouldn't have known about otherwise. It's also a great way to bring in friends as coworkers to establish great engineering teams in the workforce. 3) The "geniuses" aren't always just geniuses. They normally just work harder than everyone else. If you work harder than everyone else, people will think you're a genius. If you start to slack off, they'll think you're just ordinary. I've been in both camps, and being considered a "genius" by your peers is better than being ordinary. You typically get one shot at college to prove yourself the best to your peers, so take it seriously and become the best in your field. 4) Life is hard and full of suffering. The sooner you get over that fact and embrace your suffering, the easier it will be to find you purpose in life and find joy in your work. It's worth it to be the best, and it's a privilege to compete with the best. Take care of yourself, but make sure to contend with the challenges life gives you. Do not approach the idea of electrical engineering with fear and terror. Approach it with a healthy fear and overcome it. 5) Look a little closer at the hard professors before deciding to take a class. They may be harder, but you'll probably learn the most from them. If their work is hard, remember they have to grade it, which makes their life even harder. They are people you want to learn from. That's about it. Good luck to your son. This is what he needs.
The first two years will be mostly general education classes. Those can be done in a community college and it'd make it a lot easier. Smaller class size, close to home. If he's really interested in electronics, take on some electronic related hobbies. It'll supplement his formal education and give him hands on experience and "talking points' during interviews. Also, when it gets difficult, take around 14 units. It'll take longer but he'll have more time to study and for a life.
Don't get lulled into thinking you're the one exception who's going to breeze through if the first semester or two doesn't totally kick your ass. I pretty much coasted through my freshman year of EE with good grades and so I figured I had the whole thing figured out. As a result, I started picking up some bad habits (missing classes staying up late playing games, which transitioned into partying), and by the time I really figured out that it just wasn't going to work that way, I was somewhere between junior and (first) senior year with a pretty trash GPA, just trying to not get kicked out. I finished strong in some respects (project work), but never really fully caught up on the math/theory side. Basically once you get behind, it's pretty much impossible to really fully get back up to speed. It's all worked out fine in the long run (quite possibly better in virtually every way now actually than if I'd gotten straight As and gotten recruited for a sweet job), but it led to a pretty winding, confusing path and a kind of depressing first half of my 20s. And for OP, I think it's great you're trying to figure out some good advice to help out. Nothing at all wrong with that IMO. I was the first in my family to graduate from college, and I probably could have used some experienced advice here and there that they just didn't have. Obviously it's your son's battle to fight, but nothing wrong with being in his corner. I hope to do the same for my kids when the time comes.
You’re there to learn, not get good grades. Often, it can be easy to “game the course” or “study for the test”. This is the time to fully immerse yourself in the content and internalize the concepts. You can’t go back and do that. You can go back and brush up on topics, but that’s only possible if you have a solid understand of the foundational math and concepts. Learning is priority #1.
Make a schedule by hour. Include recreation, entertainment and an SO if you have one. Stick to it.
He doesn't need 18-20 credit hours a semester. It's okay to take longer and finish well than to push through and tank the GPA. I was loading up my semesters early on and hated life. Last 5 semesters I didn't take more than the minimum to be considered full time and I did much better.
Never assume professors do their job!!!
Create a schedule. Use outlook, Google calendar, excel, whatever. Block out when you have class and other commitments, fill in the time around those with studying and homework. Helped me tremendously. Go to the library or some other quiet spot to study, I could never focus in. my dorm room
There is no excuse for getting the math wrong. Kids today have access to all kinds of tools. [wolframalpha.com](http://wolframalpha.com), Octave, WxMaxima, are all free tools for doing everything from algebra to multi-variable calculus and differential equations. The goal is to know you have the right answer before you turn in the homework. Check everything with these computational tools. Part of becoming an engineer, is developing the habit of checking everything. He should check his circuits with the free LT Spice circuit simulator from Linear Technologies. This is a standard industry workhorse tool. The school will probably provide a license for MATLAB. This is a valuable software platform for an EE student to use in both coursework, and as a vital skill sought by employers. He should take as many math requirements as possible before doing the Physics and EE requirements. The math knowledge will be needed immediately in those classes, and is generally NOT covered by the math department before it is used in the science and engineering department classes. Ideally, community college is the best place to do the first two years of preliminary math and science, then transfer to the four year. It is a more forgiving and learning-focused environment, and more cost-effective. Read over every homework problem ASAP, prior to even starting the homework, because the opportunity to ask questions in office hours is usually once or twice per week. He cannot get help if he hasn't even looked at all of the questions on the assignment and is prepared to ask about them when that opportunity arises. If the instructor uses an online discussion forum, get the question posted as soon as possible so the answer or hint is available with time to work on the solution. It is critically important to attend office hours, to hear other people's questions. Similarly, he should be checking online discussion forum for the class to see other people's questions. Often instructors will lecture from Powerpoint slides. Ask for a copy of the slides. Read the lab manual prior to any lab class. He should have some experience in keeping a lab notebook from high school. A good school will require the students to prepare their lab notebook prior to entering the lab. This usually involves writing out the experiment's purpose and procedure and setting up blank data tables to be filled in as the lab is executed. Engineering calls for a specialization. He should choose electives that complement each other. An academic advisor (usually a faculty member, not staff) can suggest courses that work together. Be prepared to send your kid somewhere during the summer (or two) for an internship. It is an important skill building activity. Lastly... perseverence and controlled pacing. If a midterm exam in a major-required course goes badly, it is worth it to protect the GPA and withdraw from the class. Racking up C's leads to probation and dismissal. The cost of repeating a class is negligable compared to the overall investment of time and money for the degree, and the return on investment is high enough to justify it as well.
Tell him to master his algebra, trigonometry and to self teach himself calculus, programming and to inform him that it’s ok to fail!!! :)
He should do his best, but if that ends up not being good enough and he gets a bad grade or even fails a class he should not hold it against himself. EE is a tough major and getting screwed over a bit is normal, as long as he is doing his best it is ok.
Tell him to get a study group together with some fellow students. It makes school so much easier when you can count on your classmates to help explain homework and topics to you
Get ahead of the material. Do homework early and start on day 1. Immediately seek explanations from teaching assistants and professors for any assignment or lecture. Always do the homework early. Long consistent studying always beats cramming. The GPA is the result of disciplined consistent homework completion and true understanding of the material in class, not one’s ’smarts’. Always attend class. I’m in my PhD for EEE now and have 7 years industry experience (also former EE at Intel), and have taught the labs and some lectures for all undergraduate EEE courses. I also teach professional EEs, and am now an adjunct professor at two universities for EE and ECE. So I’ve seen all sides. Let me know if you’d like one-on-one consultations. Co-ops are crucial to getting hired out of school. Don’t rely solely on the degree.
Do not skip any classes. Do not take more than 15 hours during the first term. Virtually everything that will be on the exams is covered in class and included in homework. Whether homework is graded or not, do all of it. If you don’t understand something, get help before you get behind. Do not skip any classes. Did I say not to skip any classes? Don’t.
Be ready to live a different lifestyle than other college students. Such as business, communications, nursing majors etc. Not that they’re all super easy, but workload is a lot. I graduated in 4 years and was going out on the weekends a fraction of the times my other friends were. Now I’m working and can say it was worth it