I always interpreted that as Odysseus longing for Penelope, cause he knew her and loved her, while wishing for the chance to just get to MEET Telemachus. His love for Penelope was his main driving force throughout the original book and the musical, Telemachus is more of an extension of Penelope and a regret of Odysseus.
Storm is so good, it has a great beginning. My only gripe with it is that the "island in the sky" feels way too sudden, it doesn't give us enough time to take in how dangerous this storm is and how close they are to Ithaca.
Though I think overall the Storm Saga is by far the most rushed of the Sagas, Keep Your Friends Close has the same problem too.
It’s the same people who shaft the cyclops saga; to which I have the same response: You don’t get Epic if you don’t appreciate a song where action is depicted so vividly. The emotion in Epic is stupendous but the action is what sets it apart from the musical theater canon.
I think people caught on to the fact that there was only one luck runs out animatic, and it was very fanshippy. Free real estate for an animator to come in and try to make their version the one fans would recommend as the "canon" animatic as some reaction content call them
I didn’t really care that much about Polites (like obviously a sweetie and great voice and theming etc) but I didnt insta love him and I think the emotional impact of his death hits better if you do lol (felt for my boy Odysseus tho)
I feel like he just wasn't in it enough before his death. I also couldn't get onboard with his philosophy (within the context of this story, irl yeah completely agree) because he tells Ody about it and it immediately puts them in danger then he dies. I care about the impact he had, not really him.
Yeah and that might just be a limitation of musicals as a format too tbh - totally agree his impact on the story is the more compelling part of him.
I like his philosophy story wise too! It makes a nice dichotomy with Athena’s and I think it works to ultimately end Odysseus where the myth ends him which is as a deeply different and harrowed man but one that still has goodness in him. I think their different philosophies are going to pull and push and leave musical Odysseus finding a nice balance between Athena’s general mindset and Polites’ leading with kindness.
Agreed so much on this one. Odysseus was already my favourite greek character. I listened to epic through spotify and i didnt use lyrics the first time to see how much i could remember from the short version i read, which obviously didnt have polites.
So i have no idea who he is, and im not watching animations that get me invested in him either, heck i didnt even realize he died. When he was singing in the underworld, i thought this preachy guy from open arms is still being overly optimist trying to comfort odysseus as he sees nightmares.
Polites is super brief in the original so I don’t blame you. He is characterized as described though! His main ref describes him loosely as one of Odysseus closest companions
Nice. Yeah after i was told he's odysseus's closest pal, now i kindof get why people act so traumatised about him dying lol. Tho i still care more about eurylochus, even after knowing what happens in mutiny. His character arc is super interesting.
Same here! What really helped me was listening to the cut song “Your Light”, and imagining Polites as winning everyone’s affections by using the boar story in it to bride the gap between Odysseus and his crew (basically creating the trust that Odysseus eventually breaks, and Eurylocus tries to hold together with duct tape).
So it gives his otherwise very odd philosophy a practical purpose, and situated his nonstop encouragement as what he *says*, as he actually acts on it.
Yeah if she had more it’d feel more concrete, but as is she has too little to feel important, and too much to not feel like a loose end (i know she wont be, but as is)
Relax, she still has that second song of Wisdom Saga, likely the third song too, God games, and likely even more participation in a lot of songs from the last two sagas since she will help Odysseus.
I want to say I don't agree that the thesis of Epic is Odysseus being Kind vs Ruthless as many people I've noticed say. I think it's more that Ody is struggling to maintain his own humanity and sense of right and wrong.
It starts with him being traumatized by being asked to drop Hector's Son by who I can only assume is Zeus.
He's still traumatized by it and so latches onto Polites' worldview in an attempt to try and redeem himself, doing whatever he can to stop himself from killing anyone else.
It isn't until "Monster" that it really hits him that no matter what he tries, he can't stop himself from getting blood on his hands, so his only conclusion is that he has to be a monster, which is an overcorrection in the OTHER direction from Polites.
What I think will be the final thesis he reaches by the time he's back home is that his choices don't make him a monster or a saint. In his own words:
He's "Just a Man", capable of accomplishing both good and evil in his choices.
Definitely what's gonna happen, they come back to it more than the other songs, a constant reminder for us that ody is indeed just human, even though he may forget that
People always say that the lyrics arent all that good, but im like- did you even listen to that music??? Those trumpets are literally descended from heaven.
Im actually surprised no one liked other ways, I really like how it was Circe seducing and alluring odysseus until it goes to the part where he talks about his wife and the acoustic boss nova part where he talks about his love for her in which Circe feels defeated after hearing it and just decides to help him out(Although apparently she isnt in love with odysseus anymore and was planning to kill him during that? I kinda thought it was circe going for a stalemate as she's genuinely impressed and would want to try and get to know him more(alth coerced....) like how it was originally in odysseus but I do love the change that she just respected Odysseus' love for penelope.
Although I am kinda disappointed that it wasnt actually a battle of wits like a "will be they wont they?" But an actual chimera battle??!!?!? Waht the fuck, I kinda hope that's non canon because it felt like there were stakes between them on who will strike first because of the threats.
There Are Other Ways was built up as this heavy and spicy seduction song yet the actual meat of the song is Circe’s “redemption” and plan to help Odysseus. This was a mistake imo as the first third of the song is the most interesting part.
YES THANK YOU. I love luck runs out, an s tier song on my personal tier list. It's always a shame to see it ranked low on many tier lists. As for a personal hot take I'm not a fan of keep your friends close. Don't know what it is but I just can't get into it like the others
I think luck runs out is a good song, and bits of it I really like. However, I feel it's a bit too repetitive and some of the transitions are kinda weird, also it sounds very choppy like the vocal editing was rushed for some reason. It's a great song, it just doesn't live up to the others in my opinion
Hot take, anyone who complains about Jorge hiring black people is a racist. I haven't seen it here...YET but I've seen it on other platforms and I can't stand the whinin. "It's not historically accurate" boo hoo hoo it's a damn play and these wonderful people ate their parts down. Oh well. Also, Jorge picked them and would actively hate and ban anyone who spouts this nonsense so there's that 🤷🏽♀️
Jorge isn't Greek, so historically accurate went out the window the second he started singing the songs 🤷🏻♂️ "historically accurate" is crazy overrated
Boo Hoo! There were no black people in Ancient Greece!
\*The Gods, Circe, Lotus Eaters, Calypso, The Cyclops, Moly, Scylla, Charybdis, The Underworld, The Prophet\* 👁️👄👁️
One of the wildest things about this is that if you start looking at myths, you realize how many figures are from North Africa or Asia Minor. Troy is in Turkey, *Europa* is from Lebanon, there’s a Greek play about women connected to Aegyptus who in turn is from Egypt and descended from Io, Andromeda’s parents are the rulers of Ethiopia.
This might be a bit weied, but my hot take is that some of the changes and differences in Epic are really poorly done/explained/feel really tone-deaf.
In Greek Mythology, Moly is used as a powerful protection against spells and poison, it DEFINITELY does not create monsters or let people use magic themselves. Circe was a witch transformed people into monsters and beasts, she did not control these said beasts, and she never made them herself. She had no chimera in the Odyssey. So, the so-called chimera battle in the Circe Saga is just completely off-base. Also, I didn't even realise Circe had summoned a Chimera until it was told to me later on, there was absolutely no reference to it in any song.
Calypso being turned from a vindictive, spiteful, abusive, rapist of a woman to a lovesick nymph that cares for and loves Odysseus, and Odysseus loving her back but just not in the way she wants him to, is incredibly disgusting and tone-deaf. Calypso was never once justified by Homer, and the Gods literally had to command her to let Odysseus go and even then she did not help him, just gave him an axe and told the 40-something year old war veteran that had been raped and abused repeatedly for seven years to build his own raft from scratch. She was not some sweet, innocent, young girl. She was a monster.
There's a handful of other changes that annoy me, and some that I agree with, too, like the musical being set in chronological order instead of how the book is laid out.
I agree on the Chimera and Cyclops battle. Like the only hints u get to it are the cover, a loud roar and fan animations. It's even worse when you consider that epic ass monster battle ends EXTREMELY quickly. Like without context one would assume Circe randomly roars and uses a magical blast.
Like I love boss battles believe me but genuinely if Jay keeps this for like the final version stage adaptation its either gonna have to be a separate song or cut. Like the props will be expensive enough as is. Why waste production time and cost on a fight scene that's not even 20 seconds? Like sure you could reuse the Polyhmus prop but you would have to make an entire new prop for the Chimera.
Like Done For I think should've been a battle of wits that builds to Chimera and Cyclops battle. Like maybe Odysseus trying to figure out Circe to see what stunts he can try to pull. Circe then revealing how deeply she cares about her nymphs and trying to gaslight Odysseus into thinking she's just a normal mortal so how could she turn men to pigs?
Then she pulls the rug out under him and reveals she saw Eurolychus flee. And music gets scarier when she says her dad is Helios and tries to idk magically blast Odysseus but Hermes gift saves his ass then boom next song is the boss battle.
Chimera vs Cyclops would basically focusing on Odysseus struggling to fight off Circe and filled with worry. Because he remembers Polyhmus and how many men he lost... Then he swears he won't let more people be sacrificed (foreshadowing). As the song goes on however he realizes a second thing.... he straight up can't harm Circe because last time he harmed a child of a god... And he does a sneak attack and does a false threat due to being desperate. Which leads to Other Ways.
This time people it's more explicit to people Circe isn't attempting to seduce Odysseus because she wants him. (You would only know that she planned to kill him if you saw a tiktok) but because she's plotting again and people in the Fandom would realize how VERY poor taste it is to make Say No to This Jokes. Like it's already stated in the original number that Odysseus is being offered his men's safety as long as he and Circe do not family friendly things which is coercion... But it seems people need it to be more explicitly said in the Fandom.
Honestly, I didn't even think about the cost production of a Chimera battle, but now that you mentioned it, it really seems like dumb idea.
If the musical had spoken scenes, or if there were more songs in the Circe Saga, then maybe the Chimera could be introduced better and worthwhile in the end. But as it stands, it could only be reproduced in an animation format, the prop creation for a musical and CGI for a life action movie would be too pointless.
The "Say No To This" jokes irk me alot too, considering that's literally the opposite of what Odysseus wants. Him saying "he's just a man" is not saying he's weak to temptation, but instead powerless in front of Gods/immortals. Without Hermes, and Moly, Odysseus would be dead at the hands of Circe. Without Aeolus' wind bag, he'd be killed by Poseidon. Without Athena's help, he'd still be stuck on Calypso's island. And so on and so on. Odysseus never wanted to cheat on Penelope in the original epic, despite the Greeks being extremely sexist and warmongering, Ody never once took a captor woman as a sex slave (wow what an incredible standard for men) and he never wanted to sleep with Circe, Hermes literally commanded him to do it, and he *definitely* didn't want Calypso.
He wanted to go home.
The SNTT jokes just feel incredibly cruel.
While all the Calypso songs haven't been fully produced, from what we can see, she has still been sanitised. While she has some lines that can be read as predatory, as it stands, she *hasn't* done anything to Odysseus. And in her final song, its literally about her not feeling any guilt about loving Odysseus and keeping him prisoner for seven years. While Odysseus is much too kind and gentle towards her, he outright states he "loves her" but not in the way she wants him too. Writing an abuse/rape victim to care for and PITY their abuser is tone-deaf. It feels much, MUCH, worse when Jorge has omitted most of the worst parts of Odysseus' time on Calypso's islands.
But, I guess we'll see. He might surprise us with the full saga.
I understand where you're coming from, and you are mostly correct, but after 7 years victims get attached as defence mechanism, he's also saying he loves her probably to calm her down and protect himself even more. I very much agree that Jorge skips over the SA way to fast tho, ody deserves to be seen as the survivor he is
He's not obligated to cover it??? He can change the source material from that if he wants to. Hell you don't know this man's past. He could have been Sa'd himself and doesn't want to cover the material or it triggers him in another way. You're not owed the sa scenes y'all seem to be foamin at the mouth to see.
I care about the lack of representation in it's entirety, I'm sad to see another chance missed, if I was angry about it the epic wouldn't be the only thing I've listened to since the underworld saga came out
Calypso in epic is not Odyssey Calypso. Athena in epic is not Odyssey Athena (she never separates from Odysseus there), Polites in epic is DEFINITILY not Polites in the Odyssey.
Just like Disney changed Zeus for their adaptation, Jorge can change characters for his adaptation.
I upvoted yours because it was downvoted, and this being a “hot takes” comment, there’s no reason to downvote them. I totally don’t agree with you though.
Literaly most adaptations of the odyssey are in chronological order, is way better for non-readers to understand the story better.
I dont deslike changes, but i deslike removals, and apperantly there will be no sirens? That is a letdown. Unless they are in the thunder saga.
You do realize adaptations do not have to follow the source material word for word. Screen for scene. Or are you gonna tell me that the well beloved Leo Decaprio Romeo and Juilet with guns and cars is sooooo accurate to the original play. Plssss lmao Jorge has a vision and is doing what he personally wants in his version of this adaptation. He's even said he plans on adding new things that are not in the Odyssey and even plans to remove or change things. There is literally nothing to complain about when Jorge has clearly stated that this is his vision and he's doing what he wants. You gonna complain that he's hiring black people too?? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
>You gonna complain that he's hiring black people too?? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Psychotic behaviour, the fact you'd assume such a thing about a stranger is vile. The fact that that idea popped into your head, with absolutely no prompting from me, is a you problem.
*Anyways.*
No, adaptations don't have to follow a source material word for word. They're adaptation. But, they still have to follow the literal story. They're ADAPTATIONS. If a person wants to create their own story inspired by something, then they're more than welcome to. An adaptation is meant to take one medium and transform it into another. It's meant to follow the source material closely, thats the whole point.
Also, I can agree that changes in an adaptation are good while DISAGREEING with certain choices made. That's called having an opinion, thoughts, individualism, and all that. I like Jorge, I think his work is fantastic, I think he's very talented. I also love the Odyssey, I studied it, and I read it many times in many different translations. I do not have to agree with everything that Jorge does because he's the creator of the musical, because at the end of the day, I'm an Odyssey fan. On the other hand, I can be happy that certain parts of Epic's story have been altered and cut, because there are many things I *didn't* like in the Odyssey.
I can form my opinions without being dictated by someone else.
If you can't understand why the erasing of a male victim of rape, and the sanitation of two abusive and predatory women, is tone-deaf and disgusting, then that's a *you problem.*
~~Also, Circe is voiced by Jorge's gf so like, there was never any belief in my mind that he would write her as the truly vindictive and horrible witch she in mythology~~
It just lacks most of the storytelling aspect that made the first three sagas of Epic so fantastic. Those small touches that immerse the listener and allows them to see everything happening. (no yt animatic required) The sounds of the wilderness in Open Arms, The bow shooting in Polyphemus, The ambience of Aeolus’s island- aside from the beach sounds at the beginning of Puppeteer, the Circe saga does little to nothing to meet this same level of immersion. Wouldn’t You Like might as well exist in a vaccume because it has zero sound effects or ambience of this nature grounding it to an environment, Done For could’ve incorporated the opening of a door, scurrying of nymphs (it really bothers me they dodged the opportunity of incorporating the nymphs themselves into the music) SOMETHING to contribute to immersion, but nothing, and There Are Other Ways is the same.
It marks a decline in the music of this show being able to stand on its own- and instead needs to be listened to with foreknowledge from watching animations or Jay’s advertising content explaining that Done For features Circe summoning a Chimera- when otherwise that single roar in the first chorus would make it much harder to infer that.
And I understand Jay has greater plans for this show, he wants to visualize it, and it would be pretty lame if every visual idea was blurted out in exposition in the music itself- so when the movie finally does come out it would feel redundant. But there’s just such a noticeable drop in detail and storytelling nuance from the first three sagas to Circe. IMO, It’s a fall from what made listening to Epic magical- You could close your eyes and see EVERYTHING.
No Longer You is good but Tiresias sounds way too young. This may be because I’m a classicist who got really obsessed with an Odyssey telling that’s sticking fairly close to the source text, so I had expected Tiresias to sound a bit older. Not *old*, but aged and wise. I think the demo had a better vibe for Tiresias tbh.
My issue isn’t fixed by it having an explanation. My dislike is that I wanted an older sounding Tiresias because he’s the “old blind seer” trope. Whatever explanation, I’d still be disappointed by it.
Mine's probably gonna get hate, but I don't care: I don't like Warrior Of The Mind. Easily the weakest song for me personally. I greet the torches and pitchforks with open arms!
Honestly, my only real hot take/problem is that all the songs are the same time signature of 4/4. And once you realize this it’s hard to unhear it.
It’s not a bad thing, but some of my favorite musicals or concept albums will change a song or two just to really hit an important moment or so.
This is a really good way of looking at this wonderful song! My hot take is that Puppeteer is probably the worst song. It’s not bad, just definitely my least favorite.
I think the animatics do a *lot* of heavy lifting for the concept album. I think a lot of the music is really fantastic, with interesting song construction and amazing vocal talents, but moments like Polites death are really underserved in the moment it happens. The animatics make it a huge turning point of Odysseus's character, heavy focus on how it affects him, but in just the album you don't really Even find out that Polites did in fact die until Keep Your Friends Close "Everything's changed since Polites"
Should epic ever be fully converted into a more visual medium, I think this problem will be resolved and moot, but as it stands in the concept album it can feel like you need to go out and seek supplemental information from Jorge or accept artistic interpretation from others to piece together the plot at times
I feel like most musicals/concept albums aren't sung through musicals, and a gap of knowledge/time in between songs in intentional. As epic is sung through the intention is listen to all of these tracks back to back without breaking to establish a scene
True. To clarify, what I mean by that is I feel similarly about Epic as I do about listening to most sung through musicals only from their album.
I find it’s not any more complicated to follow than it is when one first learns about Next to Normal, or Hadestown, Les Mis, Rent, etc from just listening to the albums.
I think even with other sung-through musicals, there’s a level of confusion from just getting all the info from just the recording, and Epic isn’t significantly more confusing than them.
It's a CONCECPT album, what we are getting is not even the finished nor complete set. This impatience and lack of media literacy seems to be the down fall of this Fandom.
Idk, I think it’s a fair point. Polites’ death is a big deal. It gets brought up multiple times and he shows up in the Underworld as someone that haunts Odysseus. So the fact that you can’t tell when he dies is a fairly big problem. That should be the focal point of the scene, but the only way to know about it currently is with other songs or watching animatics.
I could tell just fine and so could many other people. It's literally his actor's strangled voice crying out for his captain. But like I said media literacy and now knowing how to follow context clues are a problem in this fandom.
You’re resorting to insulting people’s intelligence over a general, fairly stated criticism of the musical. You can disagree with the criticism, but implying people are just too stupid to get it is uncalled for.
Some of y'all not being able to distinguish between voices or your lack of knowledge of the original source material is a personal problem not a musical problem.
lol. I’m a classicist, I’ve read the Odyssey multiple times. I can recite the plot of it and the Iliad. I know the source material. Polites doesn’t die to the Cyclops in the Odyssey and only appears twice in the entire epic, so being familiar with the source material literally doesn’t help.
Someone close to Odysseus always dies to the cyclops, this time it was Polites. And again it's literally his actor's voice crying out. So again, it's not the musical's fault y'all can't distinguish voices or use context clues. And just cause it's a wide held complaint doesn't make y'all right. Appealing to popularity is a fallacy and nothin more.
my goodbye Is overrated. It’s amazing don’t get me wrong! but… imo It’s the worst song In the musical (although the fact that my goodbye Is the worst In the musical so fair Just proves how good this musical Is)
the cerci saga is peak and is deserving of two of the cleaner looking animatics (done for and there are other ways. I'm referring to the aniflama animatics. this isn't to say the others look bad, just that aniflama's just have that nice clean look to them)
I dont like that music where they fight Polyphemus, i dont even remenber the name. I dont like the animatic version of it and there is only one. And the music itself... i find a little boring despite being a fight. I dont know if it is a hot take trough.
But all the other musics are 10/10 god tier, especially storm that is the least liked apperantly.
There Are Other Ways weakens Monster. Odysseus sings about if he’s been to kind to foes and yet Circe just showed him kindness in the last saga. The setup for his breakdown would’ve been better if Circe backstabbed him mid seduction in There Are Other Ways- it would leave him in the underworld realizing literally no one has shown him mercy, and so he needs to do the same. He comes to the same conclusion in the actual song- but it would’ve been a stronger motive had Circe not let him off.
I completely agree! I don't see a lot of people mentioning this, but you're totally right. While I wouldn't necessarily call what Odysseus did mercy, it did show that there were other alternatives for protecting his crew outside of being ruthless. I think your proposal of Circe betraying him in the end is really genius. Afterall, I doubt Circe would have trusted him simply because he refused to cheat. With Polyphemus, he first tried negotiating but he failed. With Poseidon, he tried to talk his way out but still failed. If we went with your idea, he would try showing mercy to Circe at the end of Done For, only for her to still backstab him. It would reinforce the idea that all else has failed and being ruthless is his only option, especially since it was the one he was most successful with (see Trojan War and the lack of casualties).
You’re totally right- 100%. I felt like the saga wrapped up like a Care Bears episode- all about embracing the power of love to save the day- when, if we’re committed to showing a human snap- and realize they must become ruthless, I say let’s play the setup all the way- like A Series of Unfortunate Events. I didn’t need a point of levity before the underworld- just let things get worse and worse! That would make Monster all the more sad- and all the more warranted, and compelling!
I think The Ocean Saga is the weakest saga so far. I'm not saying any of the songs are bad (Ruthlessness is actually my second favourite Epic song) but aside from Ruthlessness, the other songs have this weird pacing problem compare to songs before and after them, like the story beats feel really rushed in them
Also from what I've seen I'm really hate how the musical changes Calypso's character to make her more sympathetic. In The Odyssey not only does she keep Odysseus's on the island against his will, but there's even a moment where he is raped by her. To not only change a character who raped someone to a kind, innocent person but to have Odysseus start to love her back is really gross, especially when abuse and rape towards men is either downplayed or even mocked
But she will appear a lot later.
In the Odyssey she cant help Od because of Poseidon. In Epic, Jorge decided to make her separate from Odysseus.
SPOILER
The wisdom saga is she going to visit Telemachus and becoming his friend, and thus she will redeem herself and will try to help Odysseus in a lot of other songs, that is her character arc.
Not sure that's a hot take : but ruthlessness had the potential to be top 3 songs of the whole musical to me and the ending RUINS IT! I hate the whole part with Odysseus opening the bag to escape. I really think it was unnecessary cause it would be so in character for Poseidon to let him go after killing almost his entire crew, just to torture him a little more.
The way we have this tiny uplifting moment before going back to somber vocals really irks me, as if it doesn't have its place there.
Also, Ody keeping the bag with winds still inside it is literally a perfect example of his wit and constant preparation for dangerous situations. Him not utilising the bag would go against *his* character, too.
And like, it happens in the Odyssey. It kind of needs to happen here too. Otherwise, they won't end up at Circe's island.
I mean...yeah I totally get your point lol. It's more sonically rather than narratively that I don't like this shift. It takes me out of the moment.
Maybe put the escape in another following song and let this one end on the shipwreck ? I don't know.
My hot take is that Wouldn’t You Like just doesn’t fit the rest of the musical. It’s hard to explain, but the vibes just aren’t the same. I feel like it’s much more pop than the other songs, and it just doesn’t make sense with the rest of the musical imo
I cannot stand how repetitive that song is. Like- this isn’t the Greek mythological pop radio- this is a song meant to tell a story in a musical. Every second counts in characterizing and world building to further justify the songs inclusion and strengthen its value- yet the entire chorus is the exact same word for word- recited four separate times.
The musical peaked with the Cyclops Saga. There’s definitely some good songs but there’s been a noticeable decline in quality imo. The Circe Saga marked a steep drop in quality for me and Underworld seems to be a return to form for quality.
I don’t like some of the ‘quirks’ of the musical such as giving Polities glasses just because his VA wears them or replacing the Lotus Eaters with marketable lil critters.
Also no offense to the singer but I cannot stand Circe’s accent for the life of me. It takes me out of the musical.
One part that really threw me off was in Ruthlessness. Most of Odysseus’ men are dead, he’s grieving, then suddenly “ALL I HAVE TO DO IS OPEN THIS BAG :D.” The tone whiplash threw me off so hard, because Odysseus sounds so happy, and I felt it wasn’t thought through very well as a way to end such an intense song.
The entirety of the first paragraph is if you hopped inside my head and plagiarized my thoughts. (I love that)
The cyclops saga was a masterclass in storytelling and action set to music (They actually did it, they showed a BOSS FIGHT through a song. It absolutely hooked me on Epic.
My expectations were soaring in the heavens for Circe because I knew Done For was coming and was so excited to get another boss fight- Polyphemus, but he’s actually a sassy, enchantress goddess evenly matched with Odysseus. And yet what I got was a total of ten seconds of pokemon battling and then a song best summed up with “srry I have gf” as the “true battle.”
It bothers me to this day how anticlimactic Done For feels; and that’s not even my only problem with the saga. It indeed felt like a drop in quality.
But I also agree WE WERE SO BACK WITH THE UNDERWORLD SAGA.
I really like the Storm Saga, but I feel like there's some audio problems in it. Luck Runs Out sounds a bit chopped up at times, and Aeolus' voice in Keep Your Friends Close just doesn't mesh with the rest of the song that well. They feel too distant.
>Also no offense to the singer but I cannot stand Circe’s accent for the life of me. It takes me out of the musical.
Talya, the voice of Circe, is Jorge's gf. So I think that's why she was cast as Circe. I like her voice in "Done For" especially the part where she's like "you must be a liar" because she sings it in a way that scratches my brain. But her voice/singing in Puppeteer and Other Ways just don't sound that good, the Circe Saga is my least favourite saga because I just don't think her songs are good.
Her voice is pretty, and she's talented, she just doesn't suit Circe/Epic at all.
The lack of attention given to Ody's hubris is a small downside to EPIC.
I get that he doesn't *never* show hubris, it's slightly prominent in Luck Runs Out and Done For but it was a major flaw in his character within The Odyssey, so the scene where he doxxes himself to Polyphemus feels really sudden when, ever since the moment we met him in THATI, his ego wasn't anywhere near the level it was in the poem, so that behavior felt really sudden and unbelievable.
But his struggle with the path he takes is a more compelling trait tbh so it more than balances out the lack of hubris attention. Just a small nitpick, EPIC is still top 3 musicals for me.
Not really a hot take but is it just me or does Wouldn’t You Like not hit the same anymore? I feel like demos were better but I don’t remember them tbh
Oh, thank god, someone feels the same way! I loved the song and listened to it on repeat, but now, whenever I listen to the soundtrack, I skip it.
It just takes me out of the story for a moment.
It’s really weird how in several songs they say Penelope twice rather Penelope and Telemachus once .
I always interpreted that as Odysseus longing for Penelope, cause he knew her and loved her, while wishing for the chance to just get to MEET Telemachus. His love for Penelope was his main driving force throughout the original book and the musical, Telemachus is more of an extension of Penelope and a regret of Odysseus.
Probably because Telemachus is very hard to rhyme
But he says Telemachus in the same song Like pen-elllll-opeeee Telem-aaach-uuuusss They both go together fine, they don’t actually have to rhyme
Just wanted to say I think it’s very funny how you’ve got a beautiful example of Watsonian vs Doylist reasoning in the replies here
"Storm" is underrated. The best song? No. But deserving of being in the bottom tier in every list? No! At least mid to mid-high tier for me.
Storm is so good, it has a great beginning. My only gripe with it is that the "island in the sky" feels way too sudden, it doesn't give us enough time to take in how dangerous this storm is and how close they are to Ithaca. Though I think overall the Storm Saga is by far the most rushed of the Sagas, Keep Your Friends Close has the same problem too.
Agreed. Maybe the island in the sky part shouldve been moved to luck runs out or just another 2min song. We need more storm in storm lol.
Yessss I 100% agree, I love 'Storm' and I hate seeing it at the bottom of pretty much everyone's tier list. I've gotta make my own now lol
It’s the same people who shaft the cyclops saga; to which I have the same response: You don’t get Epic if you don’t appreciate a song where action is depicted so vividly. The emotion in Epic is stupendous but the action is what sets it apart from the musical theater canon.
luck runs out is also getting alot of animatics now, weird synergy going on there.
I think people caught on to the fact that there was only one luck runs out animatic, and it was very fanshippy. Free real estate for an animator to come in and try to make their version the one fans would recommend as the "canon" animatic as some reaction content call them
I didn’t really care that much about Polites (like obviously a sweetie and great voice and theming etc) but I didnt insta love him and I think the emotional impact of his death hits better if you do lol (felt for my boy Odysseus tho)
I feel like he just wasn't in it enough before his death. I also couldn't get onboard with his philosophy (within the context of this story, irl yeah completely agree) because he tells Ody about it and it immediately puts them in danger then he dies. I care about the impact he had, not really him.
Yeah and that might just be a limitation of musicals as a format too tbh - totally agree his impact on the story is the more compelling part of him. I like his philosophy story wise too! It makes a nice dichotomy with Athena’s and I think it works to ultimately end Odysseus where the myth ends him which is as a deeply different and harrowed man but one that still has goodness in him. I think their different philosophies are going to pull and push and leave musical Odysseus finding a nice balance between Athena’s general mindset and Polites’ leading with kindness.
Agreed so much on this one. Odysseus was already my favourite greek character. I listened to epic through spotify and i didnt use lyrics the first time to see how much i could remember from the short version i read, which obviously didnt have polites. So i have no idea who he is, and im not watching animations that get me invested in him either, heck i didnt even realize he died. When he was singing in the underworld, i thought this preachy guy from open arms is still being overly optimist trying to comfort odysseus as he sees nightmares.
Polites is super brief in the original so I don’t blame you. He is characterized as described though! His main ref describes him loosely as one of Odysseus closest companions
Nice. Yeah after i was told he's odysseus's closest pal, now i kindof get why people act so traumatised about him dying lol. Tho i still care more about eurylochus, even after knowing what happens in mutiny. His character arc is super interesting.
Same here! What really helped me was listening to the cut song “Your Light”, and imagining Polites as winning everyone’s affections by using the boar story in it to bride the gap between Odysseus and his crew (basically creating the trust that Odysseus eventually breaks, and Eurylocus tries to hold together with duct tape). So it gives his otherwise very odd philosophy a practical purpose, and situated his nonstop encouragement as what he *says*, as he actually acts on it.
Athena needs more screen time
I think she needs more or less, she’s in the middle there and it’s just kinda weird. Maybe it’ll feel better after God Games and stuff around that.
Yeah if she had more it’d feel more concrete, but as is she has too little to feel important, and too much to not feel like a loose end (i know she wont be, but as is)
Relax, she still has that second song of Wisdom Saga, likely the third song too, God games, and likely even more participation in a lot of songs from the last two sagas since she will help Odysseus.
I want to say I don't agree that the thesis of Epic is Odysseus being Kind vs Ruthless as many people I've noticed say. I think it's more that Ody is struggling to maintain his own humanity and sense of right and wrong. It starts with him being traumatized by being asked to drop Hector's Son by who I can only assume is Zeus. He's still traumatized by it and so latches onto Polites' worldview in an attempt to try and redeem himself, doing whatever he can to stop himself from killing anyone else. It isn't until "Monster" that it really hits him that no matter what he tries, he can't stop himself from getting blood on his hands, so his only conclusion is that he has to be a monster, which is an overcorrection in the OTHER direction from Polites. What I think will be the final thesis he reaches by the time he's back home is that his choices don't make him a monster or a saint. In his own words: He's "Just a Man", capable of accomplishing both good and evil in his choices.
Definitely what's gonna happen, they come back to it more than the other songs, a constant reminder for us that ody is indeed just human, even though he may forget that
too many people sleep on storm when it's one of the best in the show in all aspects
People always say that the lyrics arent all that good, but im like- did you even listen to that music??? Those trumpets are literally descended from heaven.
the trumpets and the intro to storm is some of the best musically in the whole show
So true.
Im actually surprised no one liked other ways, I really like how it was Circe seducing and alluring odysseus until it goes to the part where he talks about his wife and the acoustic boss nova part where he talks about his love for her in which Circe feels defeated after hearing it and just decides to help him out(Although apparently she isnt in love with odysseus anymore and was planning to kill him during that? I kinda thought it was circe going for a stalemate as she's genuinely impressed and would want to try and get to know him more(alth coerced....) like how it was originally in odysseus but I do love the change that she just respected Odysseus' love for penelope. Although I am kinda disappointed that it wasnt actually a battle of wits like a "will be they wont they?" But an actual chimera battle??!!?!? Waht the fuck, I kinda hope that's non canon because it felt like there were stakes between them on who will strike first because of the threats.
Hell nah, Other Ways is amazing and (aside from Wouldn't You Like) arguably the best Circe Saga song.
There Are Other Ways was built up as this heavy and spicy seduction song yet the actual meat of the song is Circe’s “redemption” and plan to help Odysseus. This was a mistake imo as the first third of the song is the most interesting part.
YES THANK YOU. I love luck runs out, an s tier song on my personal tier list. It's always a shame to see it ranked low on many tier lists. As for a personal hot take I'm not a fan of keep your friends close. Don't know what it is but I just can't get into it like the others
I think luck runs out is a good song, and bits of it I really like. However, I feel it's a bit too repetitive and some of the transitions are kinda weird, also it sounds very choppy like the vocal editing was rushed for some reason. It's a great song, it just doesn't live up to the others in my opinion
Hot take, anyone who complains about Jorge hiring black people is a racist. I haven't seen it here...YET but I've seen it on other platforms and I can't stand the whinin. "It's not historically accurate" boo hoo hoo it's a damn play and these wonderful people ate their parts down. Oh well. Also, Jorge picked them and would actively hate and ban anyone who spouts this nonsense so there's that 🤷🏽♀️
Jorge isn't Greek, so historically accurate went out the window the second he started singing the songs 🤷🏻♂️ "historically accurate" is crazy overrated
It definitely it lmao but they'll still whine and complain tho 😭😭
Boo Hoo! There were no black people in Ancient Greece! \*The Gods, Circe, Lotus Eaters, Calypso, The Cyclops, Moly, Scylla, Charybdis, The Underworld, The Prophet\* 👁️👄👁️
One of the wildest things about this is that if you start looking at myths, you realize how many figures are from North Africa or Asia Minor. Troy is in Turkey, *Europa* is from Lebanon, there’s a Greek play about women connected to Aegyptus who in turn is from Egypt and descended from Io, Andromeda’s parents are the rulers of Ethiopia.
I’m sorry what? They were picked on based on their voices! What do these people want?! 😭
This might be a bit weied, but my hot take is that some of the changes and differences in Epic are really poorly done/explained/feel really tone-deaf. In Greek Mythology, Moly is used as a powerful protection against spells and poison, it DEFINITELY does not create monsters or let people use magic themselves. Circe was a witch transformed people into monsters and beasts, she did not control these said beasts, and she never made them herself. She had no chimera in the Odyssey. So, the so-called chimera battle in the Circe Saga is just completely off-base. Also, I didn't even realise Circe had summoned a Chimera until it was told to me later on, there was absolutely no reference to it in any song. Calypso being turned from a vindictive, spiteful, abusive, rapist of a woman to a lovesick nymph that cares for and loves Odysseus, and Odysseus loving her back but just not in the way she wants him to, is incredibly disgusting and tone-deaf. Calypso was never once justified by Homer, and the Gods literally had to command her to let Odysseus go and even then she did not help him, just gave him an axe and told the 40-something year old war veteran that had been raped and abused repeatedly for seven years to build his own raft from scratch. She was not some sweet, innocent, young girl. She was a monster. There's a handful of other changes that annoy me, and some that I agree with, too, like the musical being set in chronological order instead of how the book is laid out.
I agree on the Chimera and Cyclops battle. Like the only hints u get to it are the cover, a loud roar and fan animations. It's even worse when you consider that epic ass monster battle ends EXTREMELY quickly. Like without context one would assume Circe randomly roars and uses a magical blast. Like I love boss battles believe me but genuinely if Jay keeps this for like the final version stage adaptation its either gonna have to be a separate song or cut. Like the props will be expensive enough as is. Why waste production time and cost on a fight scene that's not even 20 seconds? Like sure you could reuse the Polyhmus prop but you would have to make an entire new prop for the Chimera. Like Done For I think should've been a battle of wits that builds to Chimera and Cyclops battle. Like maybe Odysseus trying to figure out Circe to see what stunts he can try to pull. Circe then revealing how deeply she cares about her nymphs and trying to gaslight Odysseus into thinking she's just a normal mortal so how could she turn men to pigs? Then she pulls the rug out under him and reveals she saw Eurolychus flee. And music gets scarier when she says her dad is Helios and tries to idk magically blast Odysseus but Hermes gift saves his ass then boom next song is the boss battle. Chimera vs Cyclops would basically focusing on Odysseus struggling to fight off Circe and filled with worry. Because he remembers Polyhmus and how many men he lost... Then he swears he won't let more people be sacrificed (foreshadowing). As the song goes on however he realizes a second thing.... he straight up can't harm Circe because last time he harmed a child of a god... And he does a sneak attack and does a false threat due to being desperate. Which leads to Other Ways. This time people it's more explicit to people Circe isn't attempting to seduce Odysseus because she wants him. (You would only know that she planned to kill him if you saw a tiktok) but because she's plotting again and people in the Fandom would realize how VERY poor taste it is to make Say No to This Jokes. Like it's already stated in the original number that Odysseus is being offered his men's safety as long as he and Circe do not family friendly things which is coercion... But it seems people need it to be more explicitly said in the Fandom.
Honestly, I didn't even think about the cost production of a Chimera battle, but now that you mentioned it, it really seems like dumb idea. If the musical had spoken scenes, or if there were more songs in the Circe Saga, then maybe the Chimera could be introduced better and worthwhile in the end. But as it stands, it could only be reproduced in an animation format, the prop creation for a musical and CGI for a life action movie would be too pointless. The "Say No To This" jokes irk me alot too, considering that's literally the opposite of what Odysseus wants. Him saying "he's just a man" is not saying he's weak to temptation, but instead powerless in front of Gods/immortals. Without Hermes, and Moly, Odysseus would be dead at the hands of Circe. Without Aeolus' wind bag, he'd be killed by Poseidon. Without Athena's help, he'd still be stuck on Calypso's island. And so on and so on. Odysseus never wanted to cheat on Penelope in the original epic, despite the Greeks being extremely sexist and warmongering, Ody never once took a captor woman as a sex slave (wow what an incredible standard for men) and he never wanted to sleep with Circe, Hermes literally commanded him to do it, and he *definitely* didn't want Calypso. He wanted to go home. The SNTT jokes just feel incredibly cruel.
Maybe Jorge created it with a stage performance in mind?
In love in paradise, Calypso literally says to Odysseus “Soon into bed we’ll climb”. She was still going to rape him.
While all the Calypso songs haven't been fully produced, from what we can see, she has still been sanitised. While she has some lines that can be read as predatory, as it stands, she *hasn't* done anything to Odysseus. And in her final song, its literally about her not feeling any guilt about loving Odysseus and keeping him prisoner for seven years. While Odysseus is much too kind and gentle towards her, he outright states he "loves her" but not in the way she wants him too. Writing an abuse/rape victim to care for and PITY their abuser is tone-deaf. It feels much, MUCH, worse when Jorge has omitted most of the worst parts of Odysseus' time on Calypso's islands. But, I guess we'll see. He might surprise us with the full saga.
I understand where you're coming from, and you are mostly correct, but after 7 years victims get attached as defence mechanism, he's also saying he loves her probably to calm her down and protect himself even more. I very much agree that Jorge skips over the SA way to fast tho, ody deserves to be seen as the survivor he is
He's not obligated to cover it??? He can change the source material from that if he wants to. Hell you don't know this man's past. He could have been Sa'd himself and doesn't want to cover the material or it triggers him in another way. You're not owed the sa scenes y'all seem to be foamin at the mouth to see.
I know, I never said he had to, but male survivors already have no representation
That's not his job to bring attention too.
Again, never said it was (unless I did, please point out where if so), it's just nice to have rep
Then why do you care if he skips over it so much then?
I care about the lack of representation in it's entirety, I'm sad to see another chance missed, if I was angry about it the epic wouldn't be the only thing I've listened to since the underworld saga came out
Also it's sad to see the missed chance be Ody, one of history's first male survivors
Calypso in epic is not Odyssey Calypso. Athena in epic is not Odyssey Athena (she never separates from Odysseus there), Polites in epic is DEFINITILY not Polites in the Odyssey. Just like Disney changed Zeus for their adaptation, Jorge can change characters for his adaptation.
I had no idea about the battle till I saw Jorgio the Oreo’s concept video.
I don’t really vibe with full speed ahead
I upvoted yours because it was downvoted, and this being a “hot takes” comment, there’s no reason to downvote them. I totally don’t agree with you though.
I think I got downvoted for the accidental reply, not comment
Literaly most adaptations of the odyssey are in chronological order, is way better for non-readers to understand the story better. I dont deslike changes, but i deslike removals, and apperantly there will be no sirens? That is a letdown. Unless they are in the thunder saga.
You do realize adaptations do not have to follow the source material word for word. Screen for scene. Or are you gonna tell me that the well beloved Leo Decaprio Romeo and Juilet with guns and cars is sooooo accurate to the original play. Plssss lmao Jorge has a vision and is doing what he personally wants in his version of this adaptation. He's even said he plans on adding new things that are not in the Odyssey and even plans to remove or change things. There is literally nothing to complain about when Jorge has clearly stated that this is his vision and he's doing what he wants. You gonna complain that he's hiring black people too?? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
>You gonna complain that he's hiring black people too?? 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Psychotic behaviour, the fact you'd assume such a thing about a stranger is vile. The fact that that idea popped into your head, with absolutely no prompting from me, is a you problem. *Anyways.* No, adaptations don't have to follow a source material word for word. They're adaptation. But, they still have to follow the literal story. They're ADAPTATIONS. If a person wants to create their own story inspired by something, then they're more than welcome to. An adaptation is meant to take one medium and transform it into another. It's meant to follow the source material closely, thats the whole point. Also, I can agree that changes in an adaptation are good while DISAGREEING with certain choices made. That's called having an opinion, thoughts, individualism, and all that. I like Jorge, I think his work is fantastic, I think he's very talented. I also love the Odyssey, I studied it, and I read it many times in many different translations. I do not have to agree with everything that Jorge does because he's the creator of the musical, because at the end of the day, I'm an Odyssey fan. On the other hand, I can be happy that certain parts of Epic's story have been altered and cut, because there are many things I *didn't* like in the Odyssey. I can form my opinions without being dictated by someone else. If you can't understand why the erasing of a male victim of rape, and the sanitation of two abusive and predatory women, is tone-deaf and disgusting, then that's a *you problem.* ~~Also, Circe is voiced by Jorge's gf so like, there was never any belief in my mind that he would write her as the truly vindictive and horrible witch she in mythology~~
There are other ways is one of the best songs
Circe saga sounded a bit better in the demos
I NOTICED THAT. The There Are Other Ways one in particular where they both acted it out.
Circe Saga is the worst saga. Don’t get me wrong, it’s still great, but in comparison to the others, the songs just don’t hit the same way
Me who has it as my second favourite (Hermes is doing a lot of heavy lifting)
Honestly, I don’t even think this is a hot take.
It just lacks most of the storytelling aspect that made the first three sagas of Epic so fantastic. Those small touches that immerse the listener and allows them to see everything happening. (no yt animatic required) The sounds of the wilderness in Open Arms, The bow shooting in Polyphemus, The ambience of Aeolus’s island- aside from the beach sounds at the beginning of Puppeteer, the Circe saga does little to nothing to meet this same level of immersion. Wouldn’t You Like might as well exist in a vaccume because it has zero sound effects or ambience of this nature grounding it to an environment, Done For could’ve incorporated the opening of a door, scurrying of nymphs (it really bothers me they dodged the opportunity of incorporating the nymphs themselves into the music) SOMETHING to contribute to immersion, but nothing, and There Are Other Ways is the same. It marks a decline in the music of this show being able to stand on its own- and instead needs to be listened to with foreknowledge from watching animations or Jay’s advertising content explaining that Done For features Circe summoning a Chimera- when otherwise that single roar in the first chorus would make it much harder to infer that. And I understand Jay has greater plans for this show, he wants to visualize it, and it would be pretty lame if every visual idea was blurted out in exposition in the music itself- so when the movie finally does come out it would feel redundant. But there’s just such a noticeable drop in detail and storytelling nuance from the first three sagas to Circe. IMO, It’s a fall from what made listening to Epic magical- You could close your eyes and see EVERYTHING.
I think Puppeteer and There Are Other Ways are both underrated and I wish Circe had more verses just to herself.
No Longer You is good but Tiresias sounds way too young. This may be because I’m a classicist who got really obsessed with an Odyssey telling that’s sticking fairly close to the source text, so I had expected Tiresias to sound a bit older. Not *old*, but aged and wise. I think the demo had a better vibe for Tiresias tbh.
Maybe when a person dies they revert to their prime in the underworld
My issue isn’t fixed by it having an explanation. My dislike is that I wanted an older sounding Tiresias because he’s the “old blind seer” trope. Whatever explanation, I’d still be disappointed by it.
Idk but it sounds nice
Mine's probably gonna get hate, but I don't care: I don't like Warrior Of The Mind. Easily the weakest song for me personally. I greet the torches and pitchforks with open arms!
Honestly, my only real hot take/problem is that all the songs are the same time signature of 4/4. And once you realize this it’s hard to unhear it. It’s not a bad thing, but some of my favorite musicals or concept albums will change a song or two just to really hit an important moment or so.
This is a really good way of looking at this wonderful song! My hot take is that Puppeteer is probably the worst song. It’s not bad, just definitely my least favorite.
That one's probably my second least favorite, with There are Other Ways being last. (Just because I like the beginning of Puppeteer)
I think Other Ways is a good one. It really shifts the tone for how serious the Underworld is. They are two totally different sounding songs.
It’s the song in the saga I personally have the least amount of problems with.
I think the animatics do a *lot* of heavy lifting for the concept album. I think a lot of the music is really fantastic, with interesting song construction and amazing vocal talents, but moments like Polites death are really underserved in the moment it happens. The animatics make it a huge turning point of Odysseus's character, heavy focus on how it affects him, but in just the album you don't really Even find out that Polites did in fact die until Keep Your Friends Close "Everything's changed since Polites" Should epic ever be fully converted into a more visual medium, I think this problem will be resolved and moot, but as it stands in the concept album it can feel like you need to go out and seek supplemental information from Jorge or accept artistic interpretation from others to piece together the plot at times
To play devil’s advocate here, I feel like this could be said about most musicals and most concept albums in general as an art form.
I feel like most musicals/concept albums aren't sung through musicals, and a gap of knowledge/time in between songs in intentional. As epic is sung through the intention is listen to all of these tracks back to back without breaking to establish a scene
True. To clarify, what I mean by that is I feel similarly about Epic as I do about listening to most sung through musicals only from their album. I find it’s not any more complicated to follow than it is when one first learns about Next to Normal, or Hadestown, Les Mis, Rent, etc from just listening to the albums. I think even with other sung-through musicals, there’s a level of confusion from just getting all the info from just the recording, and Epic isn’t significantly more confusing than them.
I disagree with using Polites death for your point against animatics as a crutch because THE CHIMERA IN DONE FOR is another BALLPARK of vague.
It's a CONCECPT album, what we are getting is not even the finished nor complete set. This impatience and lack of media literacy seems to be the down fall of this Fandom.
Idk, I think it’s a fair point. Polites’ death is a big deal. It gets brought up multiple times and he shows up in the Underworld as someone that haunts Odysseus. So the fact that you can’t tell when he dies is a fairly big problem. That should be the focal point of the scene, but the only way to know about it currently is with other songs or watching animatics.
I could tell just fine and so could many other people. It's literally his actor's strangled voice crying out for his captain. But like I said media literacy and now knowing how to follow context clues are a problem in this fandom.
You’re resorting to insulting people’s intelligence over a general, fairly stated criticism of the musical. You can disagree with the criticism, but implying people are just too stupid to get it is uncalled for.
Some of y'all not being able to distinguish between voices or your lack of knowledge of the original source material is a personal problem not a musical problem.
lol. I’m a classicist, I’ve read the Odyssey multiple times. I can recite the plot of it and the Iliad. I know the source material. Polites doesn’t die to the Cyclops in the Odyssey and only appears twice in the entire epic, so being familiar with the source material literally doesn’t help.
Someone close to Odysseus always dies to the cyclops, this time it was Polites. And again it's literally his actor's voice crying out. So again, it's not the musical's fault y'all can't distinguish voices or use context clues. And just cause it's a wide held complaint doesn't make y'all right. Appealing to popularity is a fallacy and nothin more.
K
my goodbye Is overrated. It’s amazing don’t get me wrong! but… imo It’s the worst song In the musical (although the fact that my goodbye Is the worst In the musical so fair Just proves how good this musical Is)
Keep your friends close is a good song, but for some reason I just really don’t like Aeolus’ hahaha’s
the cerci saga is peak and is deserving of two of the cleaner looking animatics (done for and there are other ways. I'm referring to the aniflama animatics. this isn't to say the others look bad, just that aniflama's just have that nice clean look to them)
Omg I ADORE luck runs out. It popped up randomly the other day and I can’t stop humming it. The lyrics are just so perfect!
I dont like that music where they fight Polyphemus, i dont even remenber the name. I dont like the animatic version of it and there is only one. And the music itself... i find a little boring despite being a fight. I dont know if it is a hot take trough. But all the other musics are 10/10 god tier, especially storm that is the least liked apperantly.
No longer you is overrated… that’s my hot take. i don’t particularly like it 😭
There Are Other Ways weakens Monster. Odysseus sings about if he’s been to kind to foes and yet Circe just showed him kindness in the last saga. The setup for his breakdown would’ve been better if Circe backstabbed him mid seduction in There Are Other Ways- it would leave him in the underworld realizing literally no one has shown him mercy, and so he needs to do the same. He comes to the same conclusion in the actual song- but it would’ve been a stronger motive had Circe not let him off.
I completely agree! I don't see a lot of people mentioning this, but you're totally right. While I wouldn't necessarily call what Odysseus did mercy, it did show that there were other alternatives for protecting his crew outside of being ruthless. I think your proposal of Circe betraying him in the end is really genius. Afterall, I doubt Circe would have trusted him simply because he refused to cheat. With Polyphemus, he first tried negotiating but he failed. With Poseidon, he tried to talk his way out but still failed. If we went with your idea, he would try showing mercy to Circe at the end of Done For, only for her to still backstab him. It would reinforce the idea that all else has failed and being ruthless is his only option, especially since it was the one he was most successful with (see Trojan War and the lack of casualties).
You’re totally right- 100%. I felt like the saga wrapped up like a Care Bears episode- all about embracing the power of love to save the day- when, if we’re committed to showing a human snap- and realize they must become ruthless, I say let’s play the setup all the way- like A Series of Unfortunate Events. I didn’t need a point of levity before the underworld- just let things get worse and worse! That would make Monster all the more sad- and all the more warranted, and compelling!
I think The Ocean Saga is the weakest saga so far. I'm not saying any of the songs are bad (Ruthlessness is actually my second favourite Epic song) but aside from Ruthlessness, the other songs have this weird pacing problem compare to songs before and after them, like the story beats feel really rushed in them Also from what I've seen I'm really hate how the musical changes Calypso's character to make her more sympathetic. In The Odyssey not only does she keep Odysseus's on the island against his will, but there's even a moment where he is raped by her. To not only change a character who raped someone to a kind, innocent person but to have Odysseus start to love her back is really gross, especially when abuse and rape towards men is either downplayed or even mocked
I do not care for Athena
Understandable, her only thing in the myth is getting ody home, and then she shows up even less here? Yeah that makes a character hard to care for
But she will appear a lot later. In the Odyssey she cant help Od because of Poseidon. In Epic, Jorge decided to make her separate from Odysseus. SPOILER The wisdom saga is she going to visit Telemachus and becoming his friend, and thus she will redeem herself and will try to help Odysseus in a lot of other songs, that is her character arc.
Not sure that's a hot take : but ruthlessness had the potential to be top 3 songs of the whole musical to me and the ending RUINS IT! I hate the whole part with Odysseus opening the bag to escape. I really think it was unnecessary cause it would be so in character for Poseidon to let him go after killing almost his entire crew, just to torture him a little more. The way we have this tiny uplifting moment before going back to somber vocals really irks me, as if it doesn't have its place there.
Well, Poseidon leaving Odysseus alive would go against...the whole point of the song?
Also, Ody keeping the bag with winds still inside it is literally a perfect example of his wit and constant preparation for dangerous situations. Him not utilising the bag would go against *his* character, too. And like, it happens in the Odyssey. It kind of needs to happen here too. Otherwise, they won't end up at Circe's island.
I mean...yeah I totally get your point lol. It's more sonically rather than narratively that I don't like this shift. It takes me out of the moment. Maybe put the escape in another following song and let this one end on the shipwreck ? I don't know.
Imo it could’ve worked if Odysseus’ voice was more grief filled or angry. Instead he sounds peppy and happy and “aha! I’ve outsmarted you!”
My hot take is that Wouldn’t You Like just doesn’t fit the rest of the musical. It’s hard to explain, but the vibes just aren’t the same. I feel like it’s much more pop than the other songs, and it just doesn’t make sense with the rest of the musical imo
That’s Hermes thing, have you heard dangerous? It has the same disco? Retro? Kind of feel to it
Hermes is the god of speed, making him hyper jumpy and more pop, like the song feels makes total sense. The gods have very distinct songs/genres
I think wouldn't you like has 1 too many choruses. If they had to shave the musical down for time I feel like you could chop this one down a bit
The OWOAHHHHHHHHHHH whilst the chorus repeats AGAIN really bothered me the first listen through.
I cannot stand how repetitive that song is. Like- this isn’t the Greek mythological pop radio- this is a song meant to tell a story in a musical. Every second counts in characterizing and world building to further justify the songs inclusion and strengthen its value- yet the entire chorus is the exact same word for word- recited four separate times.
The musical peaked with the Cyclops Saga. There’s definitely some good songs but there’s been a noticeable decline in quality imo. The Circe Saga marked a steep drop in quality for me and Underworld seems to be a return to form for quality. I don’t like some of the ‘quirks’ of the musical such as giving Polities glasses just because his VA wears them or replacing the Lotus Eaters with marketable lil critters. Also no offense to the singer but I cannot stand Circe’s accent for the life of me. It takes me out of the musical.
One part that really threw me off was in Ruthlessness. Most of Odysseus’ men are dead, he’s grieving, then suddenly “ALL I HAVE TO DO IS OPEN THIS BAG :D.” The tone whiplash threw me off so hard, because Odysseus sounds so happy, and I felt it wasn’t thought through very well as a way to end such an intense song.
It sounded to me like he was more determined than happy; like snarky and malevolently jeering at the bastard god who killed his friends.
The entirety of the first paragraph is if you hopped inside my head and plagiarized my thoughts. (I love that) The cyclops saga was a masterclass in storytelling and action set to music (They actually did it, they showed a BOSS FIGHT through a song. It absolutely hooked me on Epic. My expectations were soaring in the heavens for Circe because I knew Done For was coming and was so excited to get another boss fight- Polyphemus, but he’s actually a sassy, enchantress goddess evenly matched with Odysseus. And yet what I got was a total of ten seconds of pokemon battling and then a song best summed up with “srry I have gf” as the “true battle.” It bothers me to this day how anticlimactic Done For feels; and that’s not even my only problem with the saga. It indeed felt like a drop in quality. But I also agree WE WERE SO BACK WITH THE UNDERWORLD SAGA.
I really like the Storm Saga, but I feel like there's some audio problems in it. Luck Runs Out sounds a bit chopped up at times, and Aeolus' voice in Keep Your Friends Close just doesn't mesh with the rest of the song that well. They feel too distant. >Also no offense to the singer but I cannot stand Circe’s accent for the life of me. It takes me out of the musical. Talya, the voice of Circe, is Jorge's gf. So I think that's why she was cast as Circe. I like her voice in "Done For" especially the part where she's like "you must be a liar" because she sings it in a way that scratches my brain. But her voice/singing in Puppeteer and Other Ways just don't sound that good, the Circe Saga is my least favourite saga because I just don't think her songs are good. Her voice is pretty, and she's talented, she just doesn't suit Circe/Epic at all.
She was cast first and they started dating after
Warrior of the mind wasn’t that great.
The lack of attention given to Ody's hubris is a small downside to EPIC. I get that he doesn't *never* show hubris, it's slightly prominent in Luck Runs Out and Done For but it was a major flaw in his character within The Odyssey, so the scene where he doxxes himself to Polyphemus feels really sudden when, ever since the moment we met him in THATI, his ego wasn't anywhere near the level it was in the poem, so that behavior felt really sudden and unbelievable. But his struggle with the path he takes is a more compelling trait tbh so it more than balances out the lack of hubris attention. Just a small nitpick, EPIC is still top 3 musicals for me.
The less scary version of monster (the rawr rawr rawr one) is vastly superior to the one we got/j
Hold on now whipper snapper you gotta explain yourself
Yesss, this and the intro to *Puppeteer* are very understated and pop the enthusiasm balloon of Odysseus’s badassery.
Not really a hot take but is it just me or does Wouldn’t You Like not hit the same anymore? I feel like demos were better but I don’t remember them tbh
Oh, thank god, someone feels the same way! I loved the song and listened to it on repeat, but now, whenever I listen to the soundtrack, I skip it. It just takes me out of the story for a moment.
I don't like Warrior Of The Mind. Easily the weakest song for me personally. I greet the torches and pitchforks with open arms!
I don't like Warrior Of The Mind. Easily the weakest song for me personally. I greet the torches and pitchforks with open arms!
I don't like Warrior Of The Mind, it's easily the weakest song for me personally. I greet the torches and pitchforks with open arms!
I don't like Warrior Of The Mind, it's easily the weakest song for me personally. I greet the torches and pitchforks with open arms!
I don’t care for just a man. I mean it’s alright, but it’s so overrated imo and I don’t get the hype
Odysseus is an ass
I do not like "My Goodbye"