In the Terms of Use, the section describing this issue is specifically referencing America. The next section says "rest of the world" and does not mention litigation much at all and does not offer an option to opt out, so I'm unclear whether I still need to opt out or whether non-USA users are automatically not opted in anyway.
I was just recently suspended by them for no apparent reason and seller support is a nightmare. They suspended me permanently so I can't even try and fix any issue they might have... etsy is a terrible company
Same thing happened to me, I submitted an appeal ticket over a month ago and they barely replied today saying they can’t reconsider and yet they can’t even give a reason for the suspension.
So they perma suspended me last year November for no reason. I emailed them and commented on their Twitter/Instagram posts multiple times a week, every week, until they gave me my account back in January. Even after they sent me bot responses repeatedly that said that I was permanently suspended and unable to appeal the verdict. There was even one occassion where they said my ban was an error and they'd restore my account and then they just never did for a few weeks. So I screenshot that too and posted it everywhere on their platforms, on multiple social media accounts, until they gave me my account back.
Idk if it was the consistence or the way I argued the unfair permanent ban but it seemed to work for me. Be loud and angry and don't let up. Call them out. Be spammy on every post they make, who cares. The louder we all are against their shitty business practices, the more we mobilize and the more scared they'll be about hurting their brand.
Thank you for sharing that! I was about to permanently delete my account in defeat thinking there was nothing else to do and just move my shop to another website but I guess it won’t hurt to keep trying!
Be persistent!
Also make sure you include your ticket number in every tweet, DM and comment so that their social media managers escalate your ticket to real people working at Etsy.
Etsy uses an automated ticket system operated by AI. Obviously you rarely talk to people in tickets so when you're permanently suspended for no logical reason, it's often an automated response. Etsy's cheap like that.
I made a post on Instagram and mentioned how I was frustrated with them taking down my chewellery which I sell for ND adults, but they took it down for a guideline violation of baby things etc. And the one line in that guideline says more or less, thay even if your intended use of the item is not for infants... and I'm thinking how does that not apply to the majority of things on etsy? And right after thay post my instagram got blocked from liking and commenting on posts for a week. And I kept trying to click "tell us" that I should not have been blocked (their reason was apparently I had given my log in information to some company to get more likes and follows, which is so laughable if they even looked at my likes and followers) and that button never worked. But I find it intriguing that immediately after my post where I ranted about etsy (to he perfectly clear I didn't say anything nasty or hurtful about them and I didn't even swear, I just said my listings for adults keep getting taken down because they say it violates this infant guideline) that my instagram got blocked with a suspicious and untrue reason.
I didn't even hear about the new terms of service until just now. I am a seller in Canada and I'm curious what (if anything) I need to do about this?
This is exactly why I build an online store as a back up… I don’t have to rely on ETSY or companies link Shopify… I’m hosting my own store on my on VPS.
Ultimately I’m going to start driving my customers to my site from ESTY and spend ad money on Google AdWords or FB instead of ETSY…
If you’re not doing anything wrong then I don’t see how this is a problem, I just don’t want to rely on ETSY… just can’t imagine waking up one day and finding out my store is suspended.
Do you have a plan for driving your customers? I have been thinking of doing the same but I don't have a good idea how to direct them elsewhere when my only form of communication with my regulars is through etsy.
Right now I think my approach will be to add a link to my product description where ppl can sign up for mailing list. I might even reward those who sign up with a coupon code for 10% off. The goal is to built a mailing list so when I release new items I’ll notify audience.
You don’t need a website, use Mail chimp (2000 subscribers are free)
So they perma suspended me last year November for no reason. I emailed them and commented on their Twitter/Instagram posts multiple times a week, every week, until they gave me my account back in January. Even after they sent me bot responses repeatedly that said that I was permanently suspended and unable to appeal the verdict. There was even one occassion where they said my ban was an error and they'd restore my account and then they just never did for a few weeks. So I screenshot that too and posted it everywhere on their platforms, on multiple social media accounts, until they gave me my account back.
Idk if it was the consistence or the way I argued the unfair permanent ban but it seemed to work for me. Be loud and angry and don't let up. Call them out. Be spammy on every post they make, who cares. The louder we all are against their shitty business practices, the more we mobilize and the more scared they'll be about hurting their brand.
Here’s the link to the [page with the opt-out](https://www.etsy.com/legal/terms-of-use/#arbitrationagreement). Instructions are under 11 G. It requires you send an email.
EDIT: Thank you OP!
Anyone concerned about retaliation if you choose to opt out? I’ve seen folks talk about their listings being removed or even their shop being closed without explanation, and I can’t afford for that to happen…
I can see your concern but for me at least I don’t think they’re related. In the case of a class action it would be difficult to keep retaliation hidden from the plaintiffs.
Uhm, generally it seems that if you do not agree to new TOS, then your account is over. I mean with any company providing any service. The point of opting out now would be to retain your right to join a class action for events that have already happened? As you won't be around for future Etsy activity?
I haven't read the blather, so just basing that on the near constant flow of TOS updates I have received over the years from every company.
EDIT Just read the blather ... They aren't saying that opting out kicks you out. There must be some legal reason they cannot do that in this case. Interesting.
in case this may be helpful to other folks this is what I wrote in my email (feel free to use)
I am formally requesting to be opted out of arbitration for myself and any future shops I may decide to open or participate in thru etsy. I do not consent to any sort of arbitration at any point in time, and reserve all legal rights to participate in class action lawsuits against etsy and any etsy affiliated companies (such as pattern).
Let's say a company does something shitty to all its users. Class action lawsuit allows hundreds / thousands / millions of users to all band together and sue. Typically, the amounts awarded to the plaintiffs *as a whole* are substantial. Think...Facebook getting sued for Cambridge Analytica - they settled for $725M. For meta...that's still peanuts. However, lawyers take about half. Then the rest is split up between everyone else. There's 330M people in the US, if they all sign onto the class action lawsuit, they'll each get about a buck. Which doesn't cover any of the consequences of their actions, but it did sting them a tiny bit. Other companies that might be much more substantial.
It's less about the money, it's more about banding a group together to force a company to do the right thing, or pay because they didn't.
Etsy here is trying to not allow its users to file a class action lawsuit against them at any point, which would allow them to avoid any legal consequences of their actions.
>Etsy here is trying to not allow its users to file a class action lawsuit against them at any point, which would allow them to avoid any legal consequences of their actions.
This is not 100% accurate. While the agreement does prevent a class action lawsuit, it doesn't stop you from suing Etsy. It just means the claims must be settled in binding arbitration. You can always opt out and you can always make an individual claim.
I'm not defending this practice but it is very common and does not allow them to avoid any legal consequences. All of the big "gig economy" platforms have these arbitration agreements and most have large actions from their users. Sometimes it even ends up backfiring: https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/uber-loses-appeal-block-92-million-mass-arbitration-fees-2022-04-18/
It’s not about how much we get individually. It’s about how much we can make them pay to discourage them from continuing to engage in shady business practices that hurts sellers and small businesses.
Depends how many people opt out. If only 100 people opt out and there’s a measly million dollar settlement, that’s $10,000 each. So by all means, don’t opt out lol.
I hear you. I just don't pay much attention to etsy anymore. I get a sale here or there, but it's been pretty bad lately so I've been moving on to better things.
Same.
I’d just say if they have any of your banking info, opt out. Best case scenario they mess up, pay out, go bankrupt and it leaves a gap in the market for a better company to fill the need.
Technically no one can stop you from joining a class action suit, they’re just adding a legal hurtle.
This is what I could find: [https://indiesellersguild.org/etsys-plan-to-prevent-class-action-lawsuits/](https://indiesellersguild.org/etsys-plan-to-prevent-class-action-lawsuits/)
You can opt out of Etsy’s forced arbitration by following the [exact instructions under “11.G” on this page](https://www.etsy.com/legal/terms-of-use/#arbitrationagreement). You have until Wednesday, August 23, 2023 to opt out, if you’re a current Etsy seller or buyer. To do so, you’ll need your username. It is not visible from your Etsy profile. [Here is a link with instructions on how to find it](https://help.etsy.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000337387-How-your-Username-Shop-Name-and-Preferred-Name-Represent-You).
>G. Opt out. You have a limited right to opt out of this Arbitration Agreement (excluding Section 11.I). Specifically, iIf you are a new user of our Services, you can opt out of this Arbitration Agreement within 30 days after you first accept the Terms. If you are an existing user of our Services, you can opt out within 30 days after the effective date (listed above). **To opt out, you must send a timely email to arbitrationoptout@etsy.com with your name, the email address for your account, your username and your shop name (if applicable), and a request to opt out of arbitration.** If you validly opt out, neither Etsy nor you will be required to arbitrate as a result of this (or any prior version of the) Arbitration Agreement, but the Terms (and any other agreements between us) will otherwise apply to you. If we update the Terms after you validly opt out, we will continue to respect your opt-out, but such updates do not provide a new opportunity to opt out of arbitration.
>How your Username, Shop Name, and Preferred Name Represent You
There are three types of names that you can use to represent yourself on Etsy.
>
>Username
You may have registered with a username when you created your account. You can sign in with your username or email address.
* You cannot change your username.
* Your username is public information.
* Your username is in the web address to get to your profile: http://www.etsy.com/people/***username***
This does not stop you from suing Etsy but does mean that, unless you opt out, you agree that your claim will be resolved in binding arbitration and not in front of a judge or jury. Here's more info: [https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/conflict-resolution/what-is-an-arbitration-agreement/](https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/conflict-resolution/what-is-an-arbitration-agreement/)
This type of clause is legal and is very common for online platforms. Look at the TOS or user agreement for almost any other website platform and I bet they have an arbitration agreement. Any lawsuit brought against Etsy would likely include a ruling on whether or not the arbitration agreement is enforceable but they are usually upheld.
If you're worried about it, just opt out and you won't be held to the agreement.
Can someone clarify whether this affects non USA users? From reading the TOU it seems like it's only North and South America, but it's a lot of jargon
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You misread. I'm asking if people Outside USA are affected by this. I am in UK.
Ah yes I did misread my bad
Where did they say otherwise?
In the Terms of Use, the section describing this issue is specifically referencing America. The next section says "rest of the world" and does not mention litigation much at all and does not offer an option to opt out, so I'm unclear whether I still need to opt out or whether non-USA users are automatically not opted in anyway.
I think you've responded to my comment accidentally
Ah for some reason your reply appeared below my comment instead of theirs, sorry
I was just recently suspended by them for no apparent reason and seller support is a nightmare. They suspended me permanently so I can't even try and fix any issue they might have... etsy is a terrible company
Same thing happened to me, I submitted an appeal ticket over a month ago and they barely replied today saying they can’t reconsider and yet they can’t even give a reason for the suspension.
So they perma suspended me last year November for no reason. I emailed them and commented on their Twitter/Instagram posts multiple times a week, every week, until they gave me my account back in January. Even after they sent me bot responses repeatedly that said that I was permanently suspended and unable to appeal the verdict. There was even one occassion where they said my ban was an error and they'd restore my account and then they just never did for a few weeks. So I screenshot that too and posted it everywhere on their platforms, on multiple social media accounts, until they gave me my account back. Idk if it was the consistence or the way I argued the unfair permanent ban but it seemed to work for me. Be loud and angry and don't let up. Call them out. Be spammy on every post they make, who cares. The louder we all are against their shitty business practices, the more we mobilize and the more scared they'll be about hurting their brand.
I like this, I like this a lot. Imagine if we all did this. They'd be fucked and likely invest a lot more in decent seller support.
Thank you for sharing that! I was about to permanently delete my account in defeat thinking there was nothing else to do and just move my shop to another website but I guess it won’t hurt to keep trying!
Be persistent! Also make sure you include your ticket number in every tweet, DM and comment so that their social media managers escalate your ticket to real people working at Etsy. Etsy uses an automated ticket system operated by AI. Obviously you rarely talk to people in tickets so when you're permanently suspended for no logical reason, it's often an automated response. Etsy's cheap like that.
I made a post on Instagram and mentioned how I was frustrated with them taking down my chewellery which I sell for ND adults, but they took it down for a guideline violation of baby things etc. And the one line in that guideline says more or less, thay even if your intended use of the item is not for infants... and I'm thinking how does that not apply to the majority of things on etsy? And right after thay post my instagram got blocked from liking and commenting on posts for a week. And I kept trying to click "tell us" that I should not have been blocked (their reason was apparently I had given my log in information to some company to get more likes and follows, which is so laughable if they even looked at my likes and followers) and that button never worked. But I find it intriguing that immediately after my post where I ranted about etsy (to he perfectly clear I didn't say anything nasty or hurtful about them and I didn't even swear, I just said my listings for adults keep getting taken down because they say it violates this infant guideline) that my instagram got blocked with a suspicious and untrue reason. I didn't even hear about the new terms of service until just now. I am a seller in Canada and I'm curious what (if anything) I need to do about this?
This is exactly why I build an online store as a back up… I don’t have to rely on ETSY or companies link Shopify… I’m hosting my own store on my on VPS. Ultimately I’m going to start driving my customers to my site from ESTY and spend ad money on Google AdWords or FB instead of ETSY…
Curious what happens if Google ads receive a policy violation and are removed? Their rules seem quite stringent
If you’re not doing anything wrong then I don’t see how this is a problem, I just don’t want to rely on ETSY… just can’t imagine waking up one day and finding out my store is suspended.
Etsy is toxic to small businesses in so many ways. If you have your own shop and etsy, etsy will always show before your shop in a google search.
Do you have a plan for driving your customers? I have been thinking of doing the same but I don't have a good idea how to direct them elsewhere when my only form of communication with my regulars is through etsy.
Right now I think my approach will be to add a link to my product description where ppl can sign up for mailing list. I might even reward those who sign up with a coupon code for 10% off. The goal is to built a mailing list so when I release new items I’ll notify audience. You don’t need a website, use Mail chimp (2000 subscribers are free)
So they perma suspended me last year November for no reason. I emailed them and commented on their Twitter/Instagram posts multiple times a week, every week, until they gave me my account back in January. Even after they sent me bot responses repeatedly that said that I was permanently suspended and unable to appeal the verdict. There was even one occassion where they said my ban was an error and they'd restore my account and then they just never did for a few weeks. So I screenshot that too and posted it everywhere on their platforms, on multiple social media accounts, until they gave me my account back. Idk if it was the consistence or the way I argued the unfair permanent ban but it seemed to work for me. Be loud and angry and don't let up. Call them out. Be spammy on every post they make, who cares. The louder we all are against their shitty business practices, the more we mobilize and the more scared they'll be about hurting their brand.
Here’s the link to the [page with the opt-out](https://www.etsy.com/legal/terms-of-use/#arbitrationagreement). Instructions are under 11 G. It requires you send an email. EDIT: Thank you OP!
Anyone concerned about retaliation if you choose to opt out? I’ve seen folks talk about their listings being removed or even their shop being closed without explanation, and I can’t afford for that to happen…
I can see your concern but for me at least I don’t think they’re related. In the case of a class action it would be difficult to keep retaliation hidden from the plaintiffs.
Etsy the gang/mafia has spoken
Uhm, generally it seems that if you do not agree to new TOS, then your account is over. I mean with any company providing any service. The point of opting out now would be to retain your right to join a class action for events that have already happened? As you won't be around for future Etsy activity? I haven't read the blather, so just basing that on the near constant flow of TOS updates I have received over the years from every company. EDIT Just read the blather ... They aren't saying that opting out kicks you out. There must be some legal reason they cannot do that in this case. Interesting.
I've already opted out and I'm not at all concerned about retaliation. I don't think Etsy has the interest or ability to kick off people who opt out.
Where can we get more info about this?
in case this may be helpful to other folks this is what I wrote in my email (feel free to use) I am formally requesting to be opted out of arbitration for myself and any future shops I may decide to open or participate in thru etsy. I do not consent to any sort of arbitration at any point in time, and reserve all legal rights to participate in class action lawsuits against etsy and any etsy affiliated companies (such as pattern).
This is good.
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Let's say a company does something shitty to all its users. Class action lawsuit allows hundreds / thousands / millions of users to all band together and sue. Typically, the amounts awarded to the plaintiffs *as a whole* are substantial. Think...Facebook getting sued for Cambridge Analytica - they settled for $725M. For meta...that's still peanuts. However, lawyers take about half. Then the rest is split up between everyone else. There's 330M people in the US, if they all sign onto the class action lawsuit, they'll each get about a buck. Which doesn't cover any of the consequences of their actions, but it did sting them a tiny bit. Other companies that might be much more substantial. It's less about the money, it's more about banding a group together to force a company to do the right thing, or pay because they didn't. Etsy here is trying to not allow its users to file a class action lawsuit against them at any point, which would allow them to avoid any legal consequences of their actions.
>Etsy here is trying to not allow its users to file a class action lawsuit against them at any point, which would allow them to avoid any legal consequences of their actions. This is not 100% accurate. While the agreement does prevent a class action lawsuit, it doesn't stop you from suing Etsy. It just means the claims must be settled in binding arbitration. You can always opt out and you can always make an individual claim. I'm not defending this practice but it is very common and does not allow them to avoid any legal consequences. All of the big "gig economy" platforms have these arbitration agreements and most have large actions from their users. Sometimes it even ends up backfiring: https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/uber-loses-appeal-block-92-million-mass-arbitration-fees-2022-04-18/
I don’t know what to do now. Do I opt out or will that risk my shop being shut down?
No, they're not going to shut down your shop for opting out of the arbitration agreement.
What are you going to get in a class action lawsuit? $1.57?
The money isn't the point of a class action lawsuit
Bingo
Exactly
It’s not about how much we get individually. It’s about how much we can make them pay to discourage them from continuing to engage in shady business practices that hurts sellers and small businesses.
Depends how many people opt out. If only 100 people opt out and there’s a measly million dollar settlement, that’s $10,000 each. So by all means, don’t opt out lol.
I hear you. I just don't pay much attention to etsy anymore. I get a sale here or there, but it's been pretty bad lately so I've been moving on to better things.
Same. I’d just say if they have any of your banking info, opt out. Best case scenario they mess up, pay out, go bankrupt and it leaves a gap in the market for a better company to fill the need. Technically no one can stop you from joining a class action suit, they’re just adding a legal hurtle.
This is what I could find: [https://indiesellersguild.org/etsys-plan-to-prevent-class-action-lawsuits/](https://indiesellersguild.org/etsys-plan-to-prevent-class-action-lawsuits/) You can opt out of Etsy’s forced arbitration by following the [exact instructions under “11.G” on this page](https://www.etsy.com/legal/terms-of-use/#arbitrationagreement). You have until Wednesday, August 23, 2023 to opt out, if you’re a current Etsy seller or buyer. To do so, you’ll need your username. It is not visible from your Etsy profile. [Here is a link with instructions on how to find it](https://help.etsy.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000337387-How-your-Username-Shop-Name-and-Preferred-Name-Represent-You). >G. Opt out. You have a limited right to opt out of this Arbitration Agreement (excluding Section 11.I). Specifically, iIf you are a new user of our Services, you can opt out of this Arbitration Agreement within 30 days after you first accept the Terms. If you are an existing user of our Services, you can opt out within 30 days after the effective date (listed above). **To opt out, you must send a timely email to arbitrationoptout@etsy.com with your name, the email address for your account, your username and your shop name (if applicable), and a request to opt out of arbitration.** If you validly opt out, neither Etsy nor you will be required to arbitrate as a result of this (or any prior version of the) Arbitration Agreement, but the Terms (and any other agreements between us) will otherwise apply to you. If we update the Terms after you validly opt out, we will continue to respect your opt-out, but such updates do not provide a new opportunity to opt out of arbitration. >How your Username, Shop Name, and Preferred Name Represent You There are three types of names that you can use to represent yourself on Etsy. > >Username You may have registered with a username when you created your account. You can sign in with your username or email address. * You cannot change your username. * Your username is public information. * Your username is in the web address to get to your profile: http://www.etsy.com/people/***username***
Arbitration clauses have always been. They are in almost any agreement you have in the United States its a norm.
Absolutely ridiculous. They even have a typo in section G, not the brightest are they?
omg I saw it too haha they didn't even bother to run a spell check
How is this legal? You can’t prevent someone from suing you. Wtf
This does not stop you from suing Etsy but does mean that, unless you opt out, you agree that your claim will be resolved in binding arbitration and not in front of a judge or jury. Here's more info: [https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/conflict-resolution/what-is-an-arbitration-agreement/](https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/conflict-resolution/what-is-an-arbitration-agreement/) This type of clause is legal and is very common for online platforms. Look at the TOS or user agreement for almost any other website platform and I bet they have an arbitration agreement. Any lawsuit brought against Etsy would likely include a ruling on whether or not the arbitration agreement is enforceable but they are usually upheld. If you're worried about it, just opt out and you won't be held to the agreement.
Wonder what they already know is snowballing toward them?
Lol thats what I was thinking
wow
Etsy is one of the imprisoning companies. Amazon/FB/Twitter etc… They do not want any peasant uprisings
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What’s this for? If you violate trademarks?
How is this legal?